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Subject: Did Christianity cause the Crash?
Posted by: Perm Dude
- [154552311] Tue, Nov 24, 2009, 17:28
More particularly, did American-style prosperity gospel teaching lead to overextended consumers among believers? |
| 1 | Boldwin
ID: 211082514
Wed, Nov 25, 2009, 18:03
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After doing everything within their power to bankrupt and otherwise sabotage the system since at least the 60's we can expect plenty of misdirected blame from the liberal culprits. George Soros is even financing a new 'think tank' of agenda driven economists to help you out, PD.
This from the prophets of the 'Great Society' crying about overextended consumers. Amazing.
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| 2 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311
Wed, Nov 25, 2009, 18:19
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Didn't read the link, did you?
Typical.
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| 3 | Pancho Villa
ID: 381047158
Wed, Nov 25, 2009, 19:29
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The answer to the question is no, although it can be attributed as a contributor. This article is just as much about cultural networking as religious networking.
Of course, having born again Christian preachers go to work for Countrywide doesn't hold the same WorldNetDaily-type headline value as "ACORN terrorizes mortgage bankers" or George Soros is even financing a new 'think tank' of agenda driven economists, but there's plenty of evidence, even beyond this article, that this type of networking contributed greatly to the housing crash.
It's safe to say the Mormon Church is as disciplined a denomination as there is in this world. There's a central power structure that sets policy and does not accept any type of protest. Excommunication is common, loss of a temple recommend even more common. The Church is incredibly wealthy and successfull in its own business dealings, but, as a policy, would never enter the public arena as a promoter of easy money get rich schemes.
However, it is common for some Mormons to use their religious networking for such purposes. There is no better example than
the free capitalist, Rick Koerber, who mixed his religious connections with his sales saavy to build an empire of cards.
Of course that doesn't mean that Mormons helped cause the crash....or does it?
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| 4 | Bauxman
ID: 2110171217
Wed, Nov 25, 2009, 20:33
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Can't wait to start a thread called, "Did Moslems cause terror?" and watch the liberals cry like little pu$$ies.
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| 5 | Pancho Villa
ID: 3010441310
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 10:14
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As I alluded to in #3, the title of the article is very misleading, in that it doesn't present a case that Christian churches organized in any way to promote sub-prime loans to parishioners. Rather, it focuses on one preacher and his Hispanic flock, then uses a weak extrapolation in an attempt to suggest a much wider problem within that community.
The honest question is PD's,
More particularly, did American-style prosperity gospel teaching lead to overextended consumers among believers?
as opposed to the general indictment of Christianity that the title of the article and the thread suggests. One example of the the weak extrapolation used in the article:
Kate Bowler found that most new prosperity-gospel churches were built along the Sun Belt, particularly in California, Florida, and Arizona—all areas that were hard-hit by the mortgage crisis. Bowler, who, like Walton, was researching a book, spent a lot of time attending the “financial empowerment” seminars that are common at prosperity churches. Advisers would pay lip service to “sound financial practices,” she recalls, but overall they would send the opposite message: posters advertising the seminars featured big houses in the background, and the parking spots closest to the church were reserved for luxury cars.
Nationally, the prosperity gospel has spread exponentially among African American and Latino congregations. This is also the other distinct pattern of foreclosures. “Hyper-segregated” urban communities were the worst off, says Halperin. Reliable data on foreclosures by race are not publicly available, but mortgages are tracked by both race and loan type, and subprime loans have tended to correspond to foreclosures. During the boom, roughly 40 percent of all loans going to Latinos nationwide were subprime loans; Latinos and African Americans were 28 percent and 37 percent more likely, respectively, to receive a higher-rate subprime loan than whites.
In a way, I admire those who promote the power of positive thinking
and encourage people to pull themselves up and participate in the American dream. The question I have is,
"When does the power of positive thinking dissolve into delusional thinking based on faith, not fundamentals?"
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| 6 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 10:21
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Exactly, PV. Nice post.
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| 7 | Bauxman
ID: 2110171217
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 10:25
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This is all clearly the fault of white, male, conservative, Christians. No one else bears ANY responsibility whatsoever for this.
When does the power of positive thinking dissolve into delusional thinking based on faith, not fundamentals?
I cannot begin to tell you all of the things I have accomplished because of my faith in God. Delusional nothing. I have done things that somebody from my background statisically has no business accomplishing and I give Him all the credit. There are no delusional dreams because all things are possible through Christ.
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| 8 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 10:46
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There are no delusional dreams because all things are possible through Christ.
Nobody is really questioning that. But at some point, among a small but influencial group of American Christian ministers, this evolved into "God will provide for you if you get out a loan for a big house" and "You deserve more things, since they all come from God."
Prosperity gospel thinking might not be at all what you follow. But it is an insidious cancer on American Christianity and celebrated the very consumer-driven economy which led directly to the crash.
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| 9 | Pancho Villa
ID: 3010441310
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 11:04
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I cannot begin to tell you all of the things I have accomplished because of my faith in God.
Perhaps you should direct some of that faith to quell the rage and hatred you consistently display in this forum.
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| 10 | Bauxman
ID: 2110171217
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 12:18
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Nobody is really questioning that. But at some point, among a small but influencial group of American Christian ministers, this evolved into "God will provide for you if you get out a loan for a big house" and "You deserve more things, since they all come from God."
You have a forked tongue. By denying God's ability to provide you with the tools and the situations to make those things happen, then yes, you are in fact "questioning that". I don't question Him anymore. He has proven Himself over and over and over again to me and other people I know.
All things are possible through Christ. Not just the easy things or the things that are only slightly difficult, but ALL things while remembering that faith without works is dead.
Perhaps you should direct some of that faith to quell the rage and hatred you consistently display in this forum.
How were the Pharissees treated in the Bible?
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| 11 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 12:51
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Ugh. I have the forked tongue?
Ok, I guess you are immersed in the prosperity gospel--I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Good luck with that.
All things are possible through Christ. Not just the easy things or the things that are only slightly difficult, but ALL things while remembering that faith without works is dead.
Again, no one is questioning that. Except for your ability to act Christ-like on these forums.
Jesus clearly tells us not to tempt God, or test him. When people take on more debt than they should, under the specific belief that God will cover their McMansion mortgage payments, they have clearly gone off the Christianity rails.
How were the Pharissees treated in the Bible?
Speaking of forked tongues.... God alone has the ability to judge. You commit sin when you try to act as Jesus did against the Pharissees against people on these boards.
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| 12 | Pancho Villa
ID: 3010441310
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 13:31
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How were the Pharissees treated in the Bible?
Interesting. Justification of rage and hatred based on the Biblical musings of the Jewish power structure of the time. Of course, you're hardly the first to use such Biblical justification.
"Concerning the moral value of Jewish religious instruction, there are today and have been at all times rather exhaustive studies (not by Jews; the drivel of the Jews themselves on the subject is, of course, adapted to its purpose) which make this kind of religion seem positively monstrous according to Aryan conceptions. The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine( he is referring to Jesus Christ). Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took to the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord (John 2:15) this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-and this against their own nation." -Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf"
Perhaps you have a final solution in mind for liberals, Muslims or any of the other groups you deem inferior to you and your beliefs.
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| 13 | Pancho Villa
ID: 3010441310
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 13:32
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And Happy Thanskgiving to all!
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| 14 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 14:05
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There are no delusional dreams because all things are possible through Christ.
i find it incredibly ironic - and sad - that the two people here who talk the most about God and Christ and Religion are the least tolerant and most angry people on this message board.
in fact, the level of anger from Boxman and Baldwin - filled with nearly endless insults of those they disagree with (and in the case of Box, curse words galore) - is nearly shocking, considering this is merely a message board.
one thing i'm curious about for Baldwin and Boxman - and i suppose this probably oughta be a different thread - when have you been to a religious service other than your own?
have you ever been to a service in a Mosque? or, in the interest of accessibility, a synagogue?
as for me, i went to church most recently, this past sunday. i found it interesting, and while it was very friendly and welcoming and it was nice to see people enjoying their religion, it confirmed to me why Christianity isn't for me.
anyway, i got way off topic. i suppose it's because i haven't been online much after traveling for the past 2 weeks, and now i've arrived in Texas.
Happy Thanksgiving to all, and may we all increase our tolerance for other this year.
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| 15 | jedman
Dude
ID: 315192219
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 14:06
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As an active member of the LDS Church it sickens me to see
those who use their membership in the Church as a platform for
financial gain. I don't mean to say we don't patronize each
other's businesses, but it should be treated as you would any
other business transaction and the "trust me, I'm a brother"
attitude is just not right.
As far as all things being possible in Christ, I totally agree with
that. My life has been changed positively through my Church
membership for 37 years. I have accomplished things that on
my own I would not have been able to do. But that doesn't
mean I don't have to use common sense in my life and apply real
economic and financial principles that over time have proven to
be correct. Too much debt has always been a bad decision and
always will. God will not tell you to over leverage yourself
because that is just not a true principle in my mind. If you do
that, I don't think you can expect God to bail you out. He will
help you handle the consequences of those decisions, but the
consequences will come just the same. If you are dishonest in
your financial dealings, how can you expect help from Him who
is the model of honesty and integrity?
Happy Thanksgiving.
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| 16 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 14:22
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Happy Thanksgiving, a feast for all, and don't feed the trolls.
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| 17 | Texas Flood
ID: 7101698
Thu, Nov 26, 2009, 15:58
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From a moderate conservative to a liberal. Happy Thanksgiving to
Zen and all!
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| 18 | Bauxman
ID: 28113319
Tue, Dec 01, 2009, 13:45
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i find it incredibly ironic - and sad - that i went to church most recently. Happy Thanksgiving to all, and may we all increase our level of anger with nearly endless insults of those they disagree with and curse words galore
There. Fixed that for ya!
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| 19 | Perm Dude
ID: 154552311
Tue, Dec 01, 2009, 13:49
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Another FU moment, brought to you by a self-professed "Christian."
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| 20 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Tue, Dec 01, 2009, 14:45
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you didn't fix that for me.
that's your mantra - you've made it clear that you believe anger is the only solution to your problems, personal insults are very much acceptable, and endless curse words are a way to intelligently get your point across.
now, apparently, you think going to a house of worship - especially one of a different belief system - is sad.
enjoy your wallowing.
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