Posted by: Guru
- [330592710] Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 12:49
It's clear that the tenor of this forum has evolved to a point that it no longer suits many of the past and present users. In the past, when I've taken steps to throttle back some of the harsh comments, I've generally been advised to back off and let the forum self-police. And so, I've generally taken that approach.
I don't think the issue is at all unique to this forum. Over the years, the whole tone of public political discourse has moved to one of shouting, demogoguery, & belittling, with almost no interest in listening, understanding, and constructively criticizing. So it's no wonder that this forum has trended down that path as well. And as those who found that approach to be unappealing have left, those who were willing to perpetuate that approach have become more dominant.
As you all know, the RotoGuru site was not designed to be a site for political discussion. This forum area was an accommodation to some regular users who wanted a place to discuss the presidential campaign - most likely the 2000 campaign. Following the momentum generated during that campaign, it continued as a place to delve into a wide diversity of topics - political, social, scientific, and others.
I have no interest in actively monitoring and "preserving the peace" in this forum to the extent that it would apparently be needed. That's not where my interests lie. And frankly, very little of the dwindling financial contributions that I receive to maintain this site come from the those who continue to actively post here. That's not universally true, of course. But if I were to shut down this forum area entirely, I do not think it would have a material impact on the finances of RotoGuru enterprise. And it might even help, to the extent that this forum has become an irritant to some.
So, there are several courses of action I can consider
I can simply delete forum entirely.
I can let the forum continue as it is.
We can attempt to adopt a more civil tone - perhaps a "zero tolerance" policy. Anyone message or reply which contains a personal attack, an insulting smear against a class of people, or anything else construed to be outside the bounds of civil discourse will be deleted in its entirety.
I don't know whether the latter option is feasible. I do not want to be the sole - or primary - arbiter. I'll need several moderators to assume that primary role. Frankly, I'm not sure there are enough of them still around to handle that task.
Perhaps there are other alternatives, and I'm open to suggestions. But asking me to periodically block certain people from posting is not a viable means of control in the longer term. For openers, in a forum which does not require registration for posting, the ability to block posts is limited, and clever people can usually get around it. Second, from what I've seen lately, the list of those who could legitimately be banned is not short, and I have no interest in refereeing that decision. If that is the preferred direction, then I would prefer to simply shut down the Politics forum.
Thoughts? Other viable options?
And by the way, this thread has a "zero tolerance" policy as well. I want a constructive discussion on the direction of this forum, and not a finger pointing exercise on which posters have been the most abusive.
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I've hardly been in this forum at all for the past year. FWIW, I've hardly gotten any complaints directed to me. And if anything was directed to me in a forum post, I probably didn't see it.
I'm really not interested in running a politics forum. I'm certainly amenable to shutting it down.
So that's essentially the choice. Live with it as is, or shut it down. I'm through with trying to make adjustments.
Based on a recent conversation and a limited review of some of the latest activity, I’ve decided to shut the Politics Forum down.
This forum was originally established at the request of several Gurupies who wanted a place to discuss politics and current events that really didn’t fit in any of the sports-related forums. For many years, I think it served its purpose quite well. In fact, I would often come here to see what was being said about various issues, and found much of the discussion to be intellectually honest, sometimes enlightening, and generally in good temperament.
Over time, those traits have become less evident. And with each degradation, some posters have fled. I don’t see this as a unique development in this politics forum; I think it has followed universal trends in political discourse.
Of course, when this forum was launched, the terms “blog” and “social media” didn’t even exist. So this forum filled a useful void at that time. But today, there are a multitude of places where people can go to discuss politics and current events. They are probably not run in the same manner as this forum. And based on the way in which this forum has transformed, I can see that there are good reasons for the types of controls that other forums attempt to impose.
As I’ve said many times, I am really not interested in running or managing a politics forum. I’ve made several attempts at light-handed controls and imposed standards, but they just don’t seem to be very effective. Self-moderation is really the only effective control in this environment. And based on some of the behaviors exhibited here, I’m always a bit concerned that uncivility has the potential to reflect badly on the RotoGuru brand.
So, here is the plan:
Effective immediately, no more posts will be allowed in any politics forum thread except for this one. Any further discussion in this thread must be related to “the non-future of this forum”. After about a week, I’ll shut down the ability to add to this thread as well.
I’ll leave the existing forum threads available for review, copying, etc. for about six weeks. Around June 15th, I’ll remove them all. So if you have anything archived here that you want to retain, it’s up to you to figure out how to retrieve and store it.
For those sports leagues that have resided at this forum, you’ll need to move those discussions to the appropriate Leagues & Standings Forum(s). Don’t ask me to transport those threads over, however. The forum is not well designed to move threads from one forum to another. It’s up to you to figure out what needs to be saved, and how to save it. If there are leagues that are currently in hiatus, make sure someone from each of those leagues is aware of the need to salvage historical info.
I’m disappointed to lose the old politics forum. But I’m relieved to be losing the current one. I’d like to thank those who have done their best to try to make this work. I especially thank those who have served as moderators. Frankly, most of them have long since left as well.
Fun arguing with you all. Ever wonder why they say never discuss religion or politics at the dinner party? Who could have foreseen that the Thanksgiving dinner discussion would have to be limited to sports once the kids grew up.
Guess we'll have to limit our discourse to who has the shiniest player now. See you guys in the Fantasy Sports Forums.
It's been suggested that I move all politics forum threads into the deleted thread warehouse - where they can at least be accessed for posterity.
With the caveat that posterity probably isn't forever - at least insofar as the RotoGuru Forum is concerned - and that the search capabilities within that warehouse are going to run somewhat slowly, given the large number of threads - I should be able to do that. But I won't make that shift until June 15.
So, if there is anything that you really want to preserve, find it now and save it yourself. However, there still should be an attic full of them to rummage through after 6/15, if needed.
We've gone from liberals asking for 'a long overdue conversation' on their favorite topics, to diss inviting and criminalizing opposing points of view.
Thanks, Guru. I appreciate the time you took to set up and maintain this politics forum, despite its nature and the fact that, in its last years, it wasn't the kind of value-added feature that RotoGuru Empire needs.
Thanks for the good times here guru. I've always been hot and cold in the politics forum -sometimes diving in and being active for weeks or months at a time, sometimes not even opening a thread for weeks or months at a time.
Even when I periods of complete inactivity I always missed the forum. Some posters I simply butted heads with and generally tried to avoid engaging. Others I disagreed with but I found to be thoughtful and considerate and willing to discuss issues. That I will miss but most of those who are thoughtful in their discussion are also active in the sports forums (or at least in a league active on those forums).
So thanks again. Lots of great memories, lots of great discussions. Unfortunately too many not-so-great discussions...which is why we find ourselves where we are today. I guess as a group all of us only have ourselves to blame.
Thanks all. And appropriately I'm listening to Ozzie's "see you on the other side." Guess I can say I'll see you on the other side of the forums.
Seattle Zen
ID: 301361318 Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 17:05
All good things must come to an end. I am very appreciative for all the effort and expense you, Guru, have given to this forum over the past, what, 16 or 17 years.
I was one of the early frequent posters and a lot of my time has been sent down this hole, happily. It is rather amazing the number of good friends I have made from this experience. It was September 11th... 2000 that a handful of Gurupies met at a Mariners game and I became friends with at least three of these attendees. I was one of the charter members of the Political Baseball keeper league. I anguished over the uncertainty of the 2000 Presidential election here. I was one of the few sane voices against the invasion of Iraq and I will remind everyone who listens that no, not everyone believed the rhetoric coming from the Administration, I posted link after link of excellent journalism from around the globe that dispelled the notion that Iraq still had WMDs. I expressed my disgust with the independent US voter during the 2004 Presidential election. I predicted on election night 2008 that Barack Obama would win TWO terms.
But as Guru and others have pointed out, the forum has changed. I didn't stop posting, but I posted a lot less and I lost motivation to post long pieces for a variety of reasons. This is no longer a unique corner of the interweb, there are plenty of other opportunities to interact with others in political discourse. I will remember this forum warmly, I will hold all of you with high regard and I will miss all of "this". Adios.
Because some posters have complained about an overofficious moderator you are shutting the forum down? I do not understand. When I ran a website there was no maintenance for the forum.If I am wrong please inform me. Are you upset some complained about Seattle Zen as a moderator? Unless you have close friends on this forum there is no reason you should provide a service without compensation. Some of us are capitalists. What would you consider fair compensation?
BTW,Guru, I have e-mailed you a few times to see if you would be interested in a daily fantasy sports venture.Did you not see the e-mails or just not interested?
I'm a bit sad, but it's probably for the best. Talking past each other and trying to nail people with gotchas isn't really my thing, and that's pretty much where we are now.
I learned much from posters here, liberal and conservative, that are long gone, or, sadly more recently gone.
I appreciate you keeping the archive. There are posts I still search out in there, particularly my arguments around the housing bubble, and economic theory. Mainly just to remind myself I wasn't crazy. ;)
Having found Twitter and learned how to get the most out of it took some of the sting out of withdrawal here the first time. I will especially miss here however the intense competitive pressure to over-learn the fine points of the day's issues.
I developed a fantasy sports website about 10 years ago. I had no knowledge on how to create a website and had to self educate myself. It was tough as I had many friends offering to help me but few did. I am currently in the planning stage of creating a website to compete with Fanduel and Draftkings. I hired some programmers but they decided to opt out and are trying to create the site on their own.I did not make them sign a non-compete contract as they were acquaintances. I am just gathering information now and contacting Guru and other websites I use to set my fantasy teams on advertising costs. I do have a friend who has a daily fantasy sports information site going. If Guru has a FTP program we can move everything. Maybe we can even talk him into setting up a redirect. I will try to contact my buddy today.
When the left attempts to envelop itself in a bubble where all decent people believe the same things, they are only fooling themselves. They are creating the illusion that all the intellectual battles have been won and they no longer need to debate or justify their positions.
At the same time, out in the real world, Democratic politicians are scrambling to move to the right just to survive.
They are growing so accustomed to living in an ideological “safe space” that they will no longer understand what it means to debate their positions, much less how to win the debate.
This is the Paradox of Dogma. If you try to shut down public debate, is this a way of ensuring that you win—or an admission that you have already lost? The answer is: both. It might ensure that you win in the short term. But over the long term, it abandons the field to those who do believe in ideological debate.
Building 7
ID: 2011541213 Thu, Apr 30, 2015, 16:53
Sad to hear about Pancho Villa. He was a voice of reason around here, with well-documented arguments. I had my disagreements with him at times, as I'm sure everyone did, but , most of the time I agreed with him, or was persuaded to agree with him.
The political Forum died a long time ago. Hard not to agree with a lot of Dave's points. The Golden years were fun, lately it's been a bit of a cesspool at times.
We would appreciate if you would stick it in the attic so we can get back to any important baseball threads. I guess the main baseball thread will now move to the league thread?
The political Forum died a long time ago. Hard not to agree with a lot of Dave's points. The Golden years were fun, lately it's been a bit of a cesspool at times.
We would appreciate if you would stick it in the attic so we can get back to any important baseball threads. I guess the main baseball thread will now move to the league thread?
This forum software has the capability to designate a forum as "hidden", which means it does not show up on the main listing, and is essentially available only to those who know it's there.
I could designate this Politics forum as a hidden forum, and also eliminate all moderator privileges. It would then essentially run as an unmoderated, semi-private forum. All threads and links would operate as before. It just wouldn't show up on the main forum listing.
The only caveat is that if I discover a trend toward vulgarity, obscenity, or other completely unacceptable behavior, then I'll shut it down in a heartbeat. So if you remain active here and don't like the way things are going, feel free to complain - but don't expect me to attempt to fix anything with a scalpel. I'll fix it with a sledgehammer.
I'm not going to act on this yet. I may decide it's a bad idea. But give me a week to mull it over.
Feel free to comment if you wish. This thread is still live.
I like the idea Dave. Despite the sometimes rampant sniping (and yes, I will admit to my share of guilt), this still serves as a valid resource for information.
Sufficient numbers of posters, frequenting so many different sites; I couldnt possibly glean it on my own.
With the "sledgehammer" ever present and looming, one would like to think we could conduct ourselves in a manner, almost resembling multi-digit IQd life forms.
Given that I still reflexively (perhaps compulsively) check this forum (via bookmark), and have stumbled across something half a dozen times in the last few weeks, I would have posted in the past, I like your idea.
2. The only one with moderator privileges for this forum is me. But don't ask me to use them unless something really dastardly has been posted. And if I am called upon to moderate, recognize that my response might be to nuke the forum for good. Or to permanently block one or more IP addresses from being ever able to access any page on any rotoguru domain. Or both.
If you don't like those rules, then stay away.
This is being done solely as an accommodation to some longtime forum users who have shown an ability to behave properly. But this is the last gasp.
since this has turned into Boldys playground for crackpot bullshit...I'll be deleting my direct link. Translation: Now that we can no longer censor conservatives and the liberal reach-around fest is over, I'm taking my ball and going home.
I still come to this forum every once in a while and I think it is shame that it is essentially dead. I think with Boldwin's death, it is possible that nobody will ever come here again and debate anything.
I understand that there have been some problems in the past. Honestly compared to many places on the internet these problems are not unique to this forum and not as bad as they are in many places. One of the most significant problems was that Baldwin and several others could not co-exist peacefully. That problem is effectively solved.
I think it would be good if it was possible to "de-hide" this forum and attract traffic. If Guru was asked to do this would anybody care?
I am nearly certain that given the polarization in society there will eventually be problems again and I for one would be willing to accept it. I can say I learned a lot by lurking here and sometimes posting and it is a shame to see it all die.
Is there any future to this forum? I hope the answer to that question can be yes.
The problem is finding fair moderators. Most of the active moderators were from the far left and would delete posts they disagreed with (Not their job) and allowed personal attacks against conservatives. (their job to delete)
I really don't see the need for the forum as there are plenty of other places to discuss the issues of the day in a more fair and balanced setting.
It is precisely what happened. If you were capable of seeing past your left wing bias you would see the truth.
I had several posts that were deleted that were not in violation of any forum rules and I can only conclude that they were deleted because the moderator disagreed with the argument.