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Subject: Texas Board of Education Textbook discussions
Posted by: Tree
- [248472317] Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 09:28
this had previously been in the WTF folder, but i think it's significantly more important than that, especially to those of you who have children.
for those who are unaware, the Texas board of education is beginning discussions on what is going to be included in History, Social Studies, etc etc text books for kids of this state for the next 10 years...
where this effects you and your kids is the fact that Texas buys so many textbooks that most companies tailor their textbooks to meet the standards of Texas - and those books are used in something like 49 of 50 states.
The Conservatives on the board - four of whom were defeated in elections last month - are making a last stand to include a pretty heavily religious, right wing, and conservative agenda.
They've already clashed about Cesar Chavez and Thurgood Marshall, whom the Conservatives did not want included. They want to include "facts" such as the United States being a "Christian" nation. They want to include sections on how McCarthy's witch hunt for Communists was a highlight in this nation's history.
Dentist Don McLeroy is biggest proponent of these things. He is an ignorant, grossly misinformed man who finds little problem with hasty rushes to judgement.
He was part of a voting bloc that got children's author Bill Martin (he of the book "Brown Bear, Brown Bear, What Do You See?", illustrated by the legendary Eric Carle and famously read by Michelle Obama to school kids) removed from a list of authors who have made cultural contributions, because THE AUTHOR HAS THE SAME NAME OF ANOTHER MAN WHO WROTE A BOOK ABOUT MARXISM.
These are the types of mistakes these folks are making. They are headstrong, misguided, and mis-informed, and they are writing the textbooks for your children.
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| 1 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 11:08
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WTF?!?
Just kidding. I hearya bro, and hope this stuff does not pass. I have kids, and if you're telling me that your new poli's in Texas are going to incluence the texts of kids in your old stomping ground, then I am more interested. I will not want my kids to have to potentially learn from those kinds of texts.
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| 2 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 11:32
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it's scary stuff man...things like giving Jefferson Davis equal footing to Abe Lincoln and proclaiming that Davis wasn't really that bad of a guy...
then there's the whole rejection to study just why our founding fathers wanted a seperation of church and state...
from the same article:
Curriculum standards adopted by the board will remain in place for the next decade, dictating what is taught in all public elementary and secondary schools.
Texas standards often wind up being taught in other states because national publishers tailor their materials to those standards – a result of Texas' status as one of the nation's biggest textbook purchasers.
Among the amendments proposed by social conservatives and adopted Thursday were requirements that students understand how taxes and regulations restrict private enterprise, and that students analyze the importance of the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. Gun rights were given the same importance as free speech rights.
The board agreed to strengthen nods to Christianity by adding references to "laws of nature and nature's God" to a section in U.S. history that requires students to explain major political ideas.
Knight's proposal on religious freedom triggered swift criticism from some Republicans after she said it was "important for students to know the Founding Fathers supported a strong wall of separation between church and state."
She said her addition to the curriculum standards "has nothing to do with the left or the right but what is best for the children to know."
anyway, it goes on and on...
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| 3 | biliruben
ID: 461142511
Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 13:23
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In Seattle, we are simply trying to make sure we are teaching Math and English effectively to children with a variety of levels of ability. It's a massive task, and we are really struggling. Add in trying to navigate truthiness, and I might just throw up my hands.
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| 4 | Boldwin
ID: 53228720
Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 13:37
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When you have the PC police attempting to bump Einstein and Thomas Edison out of the textbook standards and inserting Famous Amos and Mary Kay instead to achieve diversity ratios...
...thank God for the people of Texas.
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| 5 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 13:48
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Hahahaha. Yeah, that's what they are doing. Edison and Einstein are no longer being taught?
Once again, extremism on the Right is excused because of fake anecdotes about the left doing it, too.
I linked to this excellent Russell Shorter piece previously about the efforts to Fox News Texas school books.
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| 6 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 14:59
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When you have the PC police attempting to bump Einstein and Thomas Edison out of the textbook standards and inserting Famous Amos and Mary Kay instead to achieve diversity ratios...
if you're going to present an argument, try not to mix your personal fiction with the actual facts.
but for clarification's sake, why are Einstein and Edison being bumped out of textbooks? for what reason would those in favor (in case any actually exist) give for bumping those two names.
and i certainly hope you're not relating Thurgood Marshall to Famous Amos...then again, you are the guy who lol'd at Rush's bigotry...
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| 7 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620
Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 18:13
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When you have the PC police attempting to bump Einstein and Thomas Edison out of the textbook standards and inserting Famous Amos and Mary Kay instead to achieve diversity ratios...
Really now Boldwin. PC Police????? LMAO This is a factual story about arch-conservatives trying to foist their personal faith-based beliefs upon the general public, as though such beliefs were demonstrable fact.
It's about revisionist history, by a politically biased and select group. To thinl that ANYONE would endorse a select theologically driven group, set the educational tone for an entire nation....is abusrd in the least.
OK, so you happen to agree with their basic theologic principles. How up in arms would you be, if it were a MUSLIM group? (Don't worry about being honest in your response. We all KNOW how you would be reacting.)
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| 8 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 19:35
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Texas Board approves conservative changes
“I reject the notion by the left of a constitutional separation of church and state,” said David Bradley, a conservative from Beaumont who works in real estate. “I have $1,000 for the charity of your choice if you can find it in the Constitution.”
Nice.
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| 9 | J-Bar
ID: 582121218
Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 19:47
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There's a quick $1000 for you PD.
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| 10 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 20:52
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i am currently disgusted by the current state of my residence. i think these buffoons - no, ignorant, clueless, pieces of dung - who were rightfully elected OUT of office, need to be reigned in.
this is disgusting, and a travesty of education, and i hope the good people of my state recognize that.
it's ironic - i live in the reddest of red counties - Tarrant county is the most Red county in the entire country - yet i don't know one single Republican or Conservative. i have friends who question Obama - but i don't know anyone who voted against him.
this whole thing is weird, and difficult to comprehend.
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| 11 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157
Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 21:24
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“I reject the notion by the left of a constitutional separation of church and state,”
I wonder if he rejects the state of Texas separating Mormon kids from their parents.
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| 12 | walk
ID: 112101222
Fri, Mar 12, 2010, 23:10
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Oy veh. How about now? WTF!!!
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| 13 | walk
ID: 342381316
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 17:38
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Texas Textbook Massacre If the cover page remains as-is, HuffPost has a pic of leatherface alongside this headline. Hilarious.
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| 14 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 18:01
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Goooooooooooooo TEXAS!!!
54 yr old TX man, sentenced to 35 years for possession of 4.6 ozs of marijuana
And THESE are the same people who want to dictate what gets taught in school???????????
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| 15 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 21:21
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Politifact on Gretchen Carlson's shameless, hysterical filthy lies about the Texas State Board of Education.
Who in the world takes this ridiculous woman seriously?
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| 16 | jseth333
Dude
ID: 24100310
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 21:32
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Tree - you need to head to other counties in Texas - Tarrant
County used to be blue dog Democrat all the way
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| 17 | jseth333
Dude
ID: 24100310
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 21:33
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Tree - you need to head to other counties in Texas - Tarrant
County used to be blue dog Democrat all the way
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| 18 | C1-NRB
ID: 401412422
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 21:43
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Technically, the words "Seperation of church and state" do not appear in the Constitution.
The First amendment states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" and that's it (emphasis added, obviously). It was put in so that an official state religion would not/could not be established like the Church of England (pilgrims, anyone?). It doesn't say, "Congress shall make no law respecting an established religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" which seems to be the way many want to read it. It doesn't force religion on anyone any more than the Second amendment forces everyone to bear arms.
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| 19 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 22:06
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It was put in so that an official state religion would not/could not be established like the Church of England (pilgrims, anyone?).
That's not exactly right, C1-NRB. "Congress shall make no law" means (or used to mean) that the federal government my not establish any such law. It's often pointed out in these debates (usually by the anti-Seperation side) that Virginia, for example, did in fact have it's own state religion.
This got all muddy when the Civil War Amendments were enacted, making the Bill of Rights apply to all citizens.
The term, Seperation of Church and State comes from an 1802 letter sent by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists Association in response to their request for a clarification of the religion clause in the First Amendment. He wrote:"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." Looking for the TJ excerpt, I came across the following quotes from James Madison, which I hadn't seen before:"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform"(Annals of Congress, Sat Aug. 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731)
More thoughts from Madison:
"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State"
[Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819]
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together"
[Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822]. source
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| 20 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 22:11
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I'm not aware of anything that any of the Founding Fathers said which challenge the notion Seperation in the First Amendment as explicitly and as strongly as Madison and Jefferson supported it in the above quotes.
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| 21 | C1-NRB
ID: 401412422
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 22:51
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My primary point was that the words "seperation of church and state" don't appear in the Constitution, not that the notion doesn't exist. Call me a Madisonian, I guess.
Even as a conservative Christian I'm certainly not going to argue for any religion to be established or protected over any other; that always leads to trouble, usually on a global level.
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| 22 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 22:58
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David Bradley's quote about the separation not being in the Constitution misses the point. Clearly the founding fathers envisioned just the sort of separation that Jefferson and the others describe.
There are plenty of things Mr. Bradley believes in that aren't in the Constitution either. A ban on abortions, for instance.
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| 23 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 23:04
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Well, you also wrote, "It doesn't say, "Congress shall make no law respecting an established religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" which seems to be the way many want to read it."
And my point is that the notion of Seperation, as Jefferson very clearly opines is established by the First Amendment (and which Madison extolled the virtues of, decades after it was established), most certainly does explicitly prohibit government-sanctioned religious activity.
Given the James Madison quotes in the previous post, I'm not sure how you can call yourself "Madisonian" on the matter.
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| 24 | Building 7
ID: 526218
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 23:05
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i am currently disgusted by the current state of my residence.
You should leave.
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| 25 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 23:12
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When I feel disgusted by the state of my residence, cleaning the place up usually makes me feel better. It can be hard work and you'll find that you'll find that you can never get some of those stains out, but I still think that's much better advice than telling him to leave.
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| 26 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 23:17
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I know a ton of conservatives who are disgusted by the fact that Barack Obama is the President. Should they simply leave?
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| 27 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Mar 13, 2010, 23:20
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"Love it or leave it" is rarely invoked by adherants to the golden rule.
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| 28 | C1-NRB
ID: 401412422
Sun, Mar 14, 2010, 00:44
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Upon closer inspection of the semantics in the First amendment, I can see where the debate can be muddied. I read the word "respecting" in the context of it being a preposition synonymous with "regarding." I have also been reading the noun "establishment" (incorrectly) as the verb "establishing," synonymous with "organizing." Reworded, my interpretation reads, "Congress shall make no law regarding an organizing of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
If, and I'm sure many do, one was to define "respecting" as a noun, especially using definitions 4 and 5 on dictionary.com-
"4. deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment: respect for a suspect's right to counsel; to show respect for the flag; respect for the elderly. 5. the condition of being esteemed or honored: to be held in respect,"- we then get into the extremists' arguments about one religion getting "respect" from the government. This is why in high school Lincoln-Douglas debates the "pro" argument meticulously defines each word of their argument before the "con" side gets a chance to question it.
Ain't English grate?
And speaking of government, I just finished filing my taxes with Turbo Tax and I'm going to bed. Stupid government messing with the natural order of the seasons, depriving me of an hour of sleep tonight. Stay out of my bedroom! (But I will like being able to tee off at 2:30 Tuesday afternoon and still get a full round in before dark. Hooray, government!)
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| 29 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Sun, Mar 14, 2010, 04:59
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i am currently disgusted by the current state of my residence.
You should leave.
no. i should do my part and fight for what is right. if you want to flee in the face of hatred and ignorance, that's your business. that's not how i roll.
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