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Subject: The Vatican's War on Nuns
Posted by: Perm Dude
- [3210201915] Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 12:14
The recent blowback against US nuns by the Vatican seems to continue. I thought I'd start a thread to put some of this all into one thread. While connected to a number of other issues (most recently, the contraception coverage debate) this certainly has the strong possibility of becoming its own "thing."
The nuns are sending some reps to Rome.
Vatican criticizes nun's book (that picture of the nun should be its own entry in the Caption thread. Just sayin'). |
| 2 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011
Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 13:18
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Egads.....I'm sorry but as an outsider from the Catholic Church, and a lay person; the very notion of 1/2 dozen 70 yr old virgins making critical comments on a book about sexuality......just seems counter intuitive to me.
And on this part:
On gay marriage, Farley said legal recognition of gay marriage can help transform the stigmatization of gays. Levada wrote back that approving gay marriage would not only signal approval of "deviant behavior" but would obscure the value of traditional marriage between man and woman in society.
they are just plain wrong. Marriage as a civil institution, existed prior to the Christian Church. Gay relationships, existed prior to the Christian Church. And in fact, gay marriages existed, prior to the Christian Church. Human society and human development, took place for many thousand of years, prior to the Christian Church. So I fail to see, how recognizing such facts, is in any way harmful to the human experience.
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| 3 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 14:41
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You mean a book on sexual morality written by a 60+ year old virgin?
The book was published in 2006, glad the Catholic church was so quick to censure the book. If anything calling attention to it now will likely lead to more people reading it.
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| 4 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 16:08
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Andrew Sullivan, whose problems with the Vatican hierarchy is well-documented, weighs in on the debate.
Despite his predictable slaps at the Church hierarchy, he has been making some solid points on this topic.
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| 5 | nerveclinic
ID: 4711362616
Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 16:48
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From the second link... The Vatican asserted that according to church teaching "masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."
Why in this day and age would anyone want to be associated with a religion who has this as a stated doctrine? I think I am entitled to be assertively critical as I was raised a Catholic, went to a Catholic school, and rationally left the church as soon as I left my parents house never to set foot in a church again save for my sisters wedding.
I do understand there are many American church members who are still active but distance themselves from this extreme theology. Understood.
Really the simplistic "child" mind that would continue to profligate such absurd teachings is beyond belief.
And by the way my Aunt is one of the nuns whom the church is not happy with and I couldn't be more proud and she has always been one of my heros.
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| 6 | nerveclinic
ID: 4711362616
Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 16:49
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Sarge I'm sorry but as an outsider from the Catholic Church, and a lay person; the very notion of 1/2 dozen 70 yr old virgins making critical comments on a book about sexuality
Just my opinion but doubtful many of them are actually virgins.
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| 7 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 17:12
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Re: 5
This same group has a core belief that birth control is immoral while the vast majority of the followers knowingly ignore this belief and use birth control.
Religion is not about the rational or logical.
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| 8 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011
Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 17:13
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In the preface of the book, she basically says she is writing it not from a religious stance but from an educators posture. Knowing that some of what is contained therein, will run contra to some of the teachings of various religions.
Ok, again as an outsider; does the Catholic Church REALLY not recognize that there is a difference between the hat worn as a general educator and that of a Nun? Are they not allowed, are they censored to disallow, any open dialogue beyond what the Church officially says is their position?
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| 9 | Boldwin
ID: 1557712
Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 18:58
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She's a nun. This isn't any different than if they caught her publishing porn. She has a position representing the church until she renounces it.
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| 10 | sarge33rd
ID: 353491011
Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 19:28
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Oh, I think it is very different, and she teaches at a facility which is not Catholic operated.
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| 11 | nerveclinic
ID: 4711362616
Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 19:35
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She's a nun. This isn't any different than if they caught her publishing porn. She has a position representing the church until she renounces it.
Of course it's different then if they caught her publishing porn.
That is so simplistic.
So someone who says "it is normal to masturbate", is exactly the same as someone who publishes porn?
making the statement "it's normal to masturbate" does not equal filming people having sex.
The policies the church asks her to represent are wrong.
Then there is the argument who "owns" the church?
If 70% of the congregation thinks birth control is logical. If 98% think masturbation is OK? then who is wrong, the body of the congregation? Or a small group of old men at the top of the hierarchy?
What is a church, a group of old men who tell everyone what to do? Or a body of many people who have read the same teachings of Christ and as a democracy have reached a different interpretation of reality?
there is the question.
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| 12 | Boldwin
ID: 1557712
Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 19:41
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The policies the church asks her to represent are wrong.
A) Who are you to say, and that's really your argument. Catholics should be allowed to be Catholics only when they are 'right'.
B) They already have a religion you describe. If you want unlimited freedom to make up your own religious guidelines free from outside interference they already have the Unitarians you can pretend to join.
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| 13 | nerveclinic
ID: 4711362616
Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 19:54
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Who are you to say
Just my opinion brah, that's how we roll here. You've been know to do the same.
If you want unlimited freedom to make up your own religious guidelines free from outside interference they already have the Unitarians you can pretend to join.
Your not following closely enough.
It's not just me, it's the vast majority of the body politic of the church.
Opinion polls have constantly shown more the 70% of Catholics believe birth control is not a sin.
Clearly an even larger number would believe that masturbation is not a sin.
It's not about me Baldwin, it's about the body politic of the entire Church and what they believe. That includes my Aunt, the nun, who has served the Church her entire adult life.
Maybe it's the simply the Church hierarchy who are wrong? Is it possible you are defending them because you agree with them?
Watch the bouncing ball brah it's right in front of you.
And trust me I have no desire or need to join any church, including the Unitarians. I certainly don't need to hang out with a bunch of new age hippies. Nice enough people I am sure, not my type though.
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| 14 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916
Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 20:02
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Interesting to see Boldwin defending the power elite (a small group of old men at the top of the hierarchy)while scolding sarge for doing the same thing in another thread:
Judging by how well you defend the power elite and every shady thing they pull
except in the case of the Catholic Church, the power elite actually has a face and a name.
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| 15 | Boldwin
ID: 1557712
Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 21:39
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But Nerve, what the heck is a Catholic who doesn't think the pope knows squat? He's a Unitarian who just doesn't know it yet. Even cafeteria Catholics have some kinda respect for the pope.
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| 16 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Thu, Jun 07, 2012, 23:56
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Who is talking about just the Pope, Baldwin?
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| 17 | nerveclinic
ID: 4711362616
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 09:43
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But Nerve, what the heck is a Catholic who doesn't think the pope knows squat?
It's a Catholic who doesn't think the pope knows squat...
The pope is just a man Baldwin, and he's gone through extensive brain washing. Sorry about the "Brah" last night I had a few drinks. ;)
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| 18 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 10:52
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Franciscans come to the support of the nuns.
Two weeks ago, my parish priest called for a prayer in support of the nuns during mass. Surprised the hell out of me (so to speak), particularly when it was unaccompanied by the usual "hope they see the light" claptrap that involves praying for people you disagree with.
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| 19 | sarge33rd
ID: 34536813
Fri, Jun 08, 2012, 14:41
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and THAT, gives me great hope and encouragement.
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