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Subject: Vote On Prior Rule
Posted by: Boldwin
- [20234245] Sun, Mar 24, 2013, 12:23
Whereas the Prior Rule has been our oldest and most icononic Poliboard rule...
Whereas the league has violated it one time to fix a new manager's inadvertent and 'caught-long-after-the-fact' violation...
I vote to
Yes keep the Prior Rule in effect.
No abandon the Prior Rule.
The Prior Rule states that no player who is not already available in Yahoo's player database, may be acquired in any manner other than the prospect draft.
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| 1 | Boldwin
ID: 20234245
Sun, Mar 24, 2013, 12:23
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Yes
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| 2 | biliruben
ID: 59551120
Sun, Mar 24, 2013, 12:24
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Y
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| 3 | taxman
SuperDude
ID: 029463114
Sun, Mar 24, 2013, 12:37
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NO...great idea to have ANOTHER place to check about players availability...besides the Control F for prospects and Control F for keepers and previously drafted players.
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| 4 | Bean
Sustainer
ID: 49934911
Sun, Mar 24, 2013, 13:36
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NO
If you move the prospect draft to before the regular draft, then this rule serves no purpose.
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| 5 | C1-NRB
ID: 202101423
Sun, Mar 24, 2013, 14:18
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No.
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| 6 | Tree
ID: 0271015
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 00:32
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no
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| 7 | nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 05047110
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 05:24
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I don't understand, we are moving the prospect draft to before the reg draft. So now we will have 5 prospects for the year before the reg draft.
So what is the point of even taking a poll about this?
Are you saying that once the season starts, if you hear about a player, in Timbuckto, who is not in the data base, but might come up to the league in 3 months, you can declare him yours and keep a roster spot empty?
What about waivers?
Everyone should get a shot at that player through waivers when he finally comes up.
Maybe Bean has the #1 waiver and he is saving it. Maybe I have the 10th waiver. So I go out and grab a player in that's not in the database and prevent the number one waiver from acquiring him. Is that what is meant by this poll because honestly I don't understand the point. It's just one more complication and one more thing to argue about.
Yes Prior rule stays. You cannot add a player, until he is put into the database and clears waivers, person with the highest waiver gets first shot, unless you draft him in the prospect draft.
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| 8 | biliruben
ID: 41431323
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 05:27
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When this thread was started, it wasn't clear if we were going to vote to move the draft. The implications are very different depending on the other vote.
Now that we have moved the draft, it's somewhat less important, but as Nerve states, still important.
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| 9 | Tree
ID: 131137414
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 06:28
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hasn't the prior rule applied to the draft, and never to free agent acquisitions?
this, again, is over thinking. it goes without saying that once th the season starts, if a player is not in the database of the system you're using (yahoo, espn, whatever), you can just arbitrarily acquire someone not in the game.
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| 10 | Boldwin
ID: 17248257
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 09:04
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I cannot ever remember being able to reserve someone who was not on Yahoo's database, in anyway other than the prospect draft. Any Ex-commish remember holding a list of such reserved players?
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| 11 | GO
ID: 120252515
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 09:25
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YES
Needs to be in the Yahoo system to draft in the regular draft or add during the season.
This is why we have the Prospect draft, to acquire any of those outside the box young guys.
This will force callups to go through waivers during the season, and I think thats the main reason I support it.
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| 12 | Bean
Sustainer
ID: 49934911
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 10:15
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Is it not the case that the only commissioner involvement for roster changes mid-season is to protect rights to prospects? I assumed there was no need for commissioners to be involved in roster changes mid-season and we just let the Yahoo software do its job.
I agree that adding a player to your roster during the regular season should require that the player be in the yahoo list. Any other solution would add an unnecessary burden to the housekeeping job for the commissioner. I guess when I voted NO to this rule I hadn't consider that to be THE issue. I am glad Nerve brought it up for clarification.
What I would hate to see happen is that we vote that a guy must be in the Yahoo list to be DRAFTED. We all appreciate that many prospects wont be in the list. We all also understand that we will have had our chance to pick over the prospects before the active roster draft. SO, who might be even worth a look during the active draft, that might not be in the Yahoo list? A guy, who, for whatever reason, Yahoo chose not to put in the database, most likely an oversight that will soon be corrected. If someone wants THAT guy, and is willing to sacrifice an active roster slot for him, I say have at it.
Bottom line, there is no need for a Prior Rule during the draft, it ties us to Yahoo's early season oversights in a way that I know we dont want to be connected.
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| 13 | Tree
ID: 131137414
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 10:27
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yes. this is what I'm not understanding. I presumed the Prior Rule was for the draft only, and not for in season transactions. it seems obvious that for in season transactions, if the they're not in the database, they can't be picked up.
can someone around when the prior rule was created explain if it applies only to the drafts?
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| 14 | PuNk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 10:32
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How could it apply to any transactions during the season? If they aren't in Yahoo they can't be picked up.
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| 15 | Tree
ID: 131137414
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 10:50
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exactly my point, Punk. NC bringing it up in post 7 is why there is even a question in the first place. I wouldn't have imagined it as even an idea, quite frankly.
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| 16 | GO
ID: 120252515
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 10:57
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But I also think writing it in there now closes any potential loopholes in the future. Why not just put a few extra words in there and close it up.
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| 17 | Bean
Sustainer
ID: 49934911
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 10:59
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I concur GO, glad nerve brought it up
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| 18 | Bobo
ID: 2212510
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 11:01
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My vote is No, as the point (as I see it) becomes moot when adding the prospect draft to occur before the the traditional draft.
Now, I can see the challenge of continuously running the draft via draftime is the ability and certainty of ensuring players to draft are already in Yahoo's database - has that ever been discussed and resolved?
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| 19 | GO
ID: 120252515
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 15:28
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You can remove players from the Draftime database as an Admin. So we will just need to look up some potential picks pre-draft -- asses if they are in Yahoo or not, and then remove from Draftime if they aren't.
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| 20 | Bobo
ID: 57272515
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 16:08
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GO: - That seems like the right "fix" but are/will any of the future commishes or co-commishes want/committing to that additional duty?
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| 21 | Bean
Sustainer
ID: 49934911
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 17:32
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I am confused about what we are doing in the last couple entries. What exactly are we proposing to do in Draft Time?
Since we dont use Draft Time for the prospect draft, and its unlikely that anyone would waste an active roster spot for a guy who wasnt even good enough to be drafted as a prospect. What are you guys trying to accomplish?
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| 22 | Tree
ID: 42422516
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 17:42
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Bean - remember when i said sometimes things get overly complicated here? :oD
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| 23 | Boldwin
ID: 552202517
Mon, Mar 25, 2013, 18:25
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So we will just need to look up some potential picks pre-draft -- asses if they are in Yahoo or not, and then remove from Draftime if they aren't.
Nope. Each player only drafts 0-1 prospect eligible each year. Let them and the other manager who wants the player look him up.
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| 24 | Bean
Sustainer
ID: 49934911
Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 15:14
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Kinda lost count here. Are we near majority that we don't need a Prior rule for the drafts. Are we also in agreement that we need to have a waiver process for guys that get added to the Yahoo database (I think Yahoo software automatically does that)? Finally, that there will be no mechanism to add a player to your roster after the draft, unless he is in the Yahoo database and subject to the Yahoo waiver process?
Haven't seen anyone saying it should go some other way in this thread since Nerve brought the issue up.
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| 25 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515
Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 15:33
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I'm still a bit confused. We can't draft non-yahoo in the regular draft, correct?
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| 26 | GO
ID: 82361413
Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 16:04
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Correct, for now still no non-Yahoo eligible in the regular draft. That is what the vote is and I"m not sure how that vote is going.
In theory the draftime admin could go in and take Javier Baez out of draftime so that he couldn't even get picked - and therefore no issues.
But Boldwin is right! (1st time I've ever typed these words...) Thats just a pain the butt and lots of extra work put on the commishes. If you are drafting a player who is questionable and potentially not in Yahoo? Then it should be up to that guy to doublecheck he's in Yahoo or not. And if you don't check that out and pick him anyway (i.e. Baez this year) then your penalty will be just be the guys you miss out on until you re-pick.
In G20 football I think it was there was someone complaining that Draftime shouldn't have guys in there if they aren't available on Yahoo. What Yahoo-centric person fails to realize is that people are using Draftime that are in leagues on ESPN, CBS etc. and that player might be listed in those so he needs to be available in Draftime.
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| 27 | Bean
Sustainer
ID: 49934911
Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 16:49
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First I thought all was settled for this year's draft, and that fiasco should now be a distant painful memory, that should remain between you and your psychologist. Let's please move on.
So, this vote is just for how we handle things for 2013 regular season and beyond. Am I right?
I would contend, if the guy is not in Yahoo at the time of the draft, yet is somehow worthy of a roster spot, then the only reason he isnt in Yahoo is that Yahoo deemed he was insignificant, or it was just an oversight on their part.
If the guy is really a decent player, and he is going to exit spring training on the active roster of some club, then Yahoo will fix that before long, they always do. They will not ignore a guy in a starting lineup of a club just to be dicks, they will fix that.
So, anyone who drafts a guy who isnt in the Yahoo database can just keep the guy and have an empty roster spot. We can make a record of it, and he will be yours once he does appear in the Yahoo data base. You can drop him anytime you want by simply filling the empty roster spot with a free agent, you wont have to send out an all points bulletin, notify the FBI or hold a special press conference.
If you are crazy enough to keep the guy all season long and he never makes the majors, why should anyone complain. Afterall, if someone really wanted that guy, they could have drafted him in the prospect draft, which will be done first starting next year.
Frankly, I really dont understand why we are even having this discussion, except that people cant get their heads around the prospect draft will be before the active roster draft next year. The need for a bunch of rules to limit gaming of the system with prospects will therefore no longer be necessary.
Making more rules just makes more work, invites more mistakes and creates more controversy. If you want all that baggage, make sure you are accomplishing something worth going through the pain.
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| 28 | Bean
Sustainer
ID: 49934911
Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 16:54
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The only credible issue the yahoo database thing has is that we need to have a waiver proess for players that are not on anyone's roster and that Yahoo has suddenly put into their database. To have first dibs at those guys just because you were the first one to notice it seconds after it was updated is just plain dumb. I believe the Yahoo software already does that assuming it is set up to do so. It's prolly the default.
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| 29 | Tree
ID: 10253269
Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 17:31
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The only credible issue the yahoo database thing has is that we need to have a waiver proess for players that are not on anyone's roster and that Yahoo has suddenly put into their database.
i am fairly certain that Yahoo puts new players into Waivers, and not the free agent pool.
Frankly, I really dont understand why we are even having this discussion...
exactly. it became an issue because Nerve broached the question of "what if we want to acquire a player mid-season not in the Yahoo system."
to me, there doesn't even need to be a rule about this. if the player isn't in the system, you can't acquire him. it seems weird to me that someone might think you actually could have a mid season pick up of someone not in the system.
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| 30 | C1-NRB
ID: 451120913
Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 17:50
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to me, there doesn't even need to be a rule about this. if the player isn't in the system, you can't acquire him. it seems weird to me that someone might think you actually could have a mid season pick up of someone not in the system.
Absolutely. If you can't get a guy in Yahoo during the season you can't add him to your roster because there's no way to add him to your roster. Essentially, once the Prospect Draft is done, the only way to add a player to your "40 man roster" is if he appears in the Yahoo database. Otherwise we'd always be adjusting our Prospect Rosters to pick up the latest breakout phenom.
A few seasons ago I emailed a Yahoo administrator about a particular player and when he might show up in the pool of players. (I won't lie- I wanted to get the drop on you guys.) They told me, "As soon as he gets called up and plays a game he will be on the waiver wire."
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| 31 | Bean
Sustainer
ID: 49934911
Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 18:17
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<29> So, is this a dead issue then Tree? We will only hear Prior's name mentioned anecdotally in the future?
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| 32 | Tree
ID: 10253269
Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 18:34
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i haven't tallied up the vote yet, but if it's not already a dead issue, i presume it will be, and the Prior rule will finally be dead and buried.
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| 33 | Bean
Sustainer
ID: 49934911
Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 19:31
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These are the applicable settings in Yahoo with our choices (defaults I presume)
New Players Become Available: As soon as Yahoo! adds them
Post Draft Players: Follow Waiver Rules
Waiver Time: 1 day
Based on these settings, when a player is added to the Yahoo database, our league will see the player immediately, but the player will remain on waivers for 1-day before he becomes a free agent.
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| 34 | Bean
Sustainer
ID: 49934911
Tue, Mar 26, 2013, 19:51
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I just checked the settings on the PRO20 league I joined. (Yahoo's Public League, $20 buy in game).
The only difference relating to this issue is they have a 2 day waiver time. So, other than how long our waiver period is, it seems we are using defaults.
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| 35 | GO
ID: 262151821
Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 10:55
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I count four Yes and four No votes above. Need to finish this so I start a regular season thread with all the rules in it.
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| 36 | Boldwin
ID: 48234293
Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 11:05
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I would like to point out that my vote, unlike all the rest, was bolded.
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| 37 | Tree
ID: 26213299
Fri, Mar 29, 2013, 11:12
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i think the OP is troubling because of this line: The Prior Rule states that no player who is not already available in Yahoo's player database, may be acquired in any manner other than the prospect draft.
i am of the opinion that you can draft whomever you please, regardless of stature in the yahoo database.
you just can't pick up players via waivers/free agency/etc who aren't in the yahoo database, but that goes without saying.
taking the confusing double negative out of what i put in italics above, i believe we are saying:
"The Prior Rule states that the only way to acquire a player not in Yahoo's database is through the prospect draft."
and that is what i am voting against, because i feel like you should be able to acquire them in the regular draft as well.
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| 38 | Nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 05047110
Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 04:22
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This whole thread needs to be started over and the OP changed. There are literally people (Bean for example) who have voted no, but when they explain their position they really mean "yes" that no one not in the yahoo data base can be drafted once the prospect draft is over.
This whole thing is a mess and the vote itself is worthless because there are people who are voting no (Because the OP was vague and poorly written,) when they really mean yes.
The issue is simple.
1 We have a prospect draft first
2 After that draft is over we can only add players who are in the Yahoo system, draft or otherwise.
Either you agree with number 2 or you disagree.
If you disagree, then there has to be a whole new system set up for these players who are not in the Yahoo data base.
Who keeps track? and most importantly how do you fill your roster (which Yahoo requires???) you cannot have less players then the required number to fill your team. So what do we do? Have a place holder? What if the placeholder is someone another team wants to pick up?
It's madness.
In any case this thread and the votes are worthless because people are not even answering the question correctly, which is not surprising because it was so poorly written.
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| 39 | Tree
ID: 0271015
Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 09:00
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well, at least we agree on something Nerve. :o)
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| 40 | GO
ID: 120252515
Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 09:38
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I think we are done with this.
Prospect Draft? Draft whoever you want. Little League if you want.
After that? Must be in the system.
Done.
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| 41 | Tree
ID: 132529
Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 10:25
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and it is said.
amen.
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| 42 | nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 05047110
Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 13:10
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Good Lord now I agree with Tree and Go. Frightening...
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| 43 | Bean
Sustainer
ID: 49934911
Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 13:48
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<41> need clarification of mid draft issue in the main thread.
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| 44 | Boldwin
ID: 7349219
Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 20:56
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I would like to once again point out that my vote, unlike all the rest, was bolded.
I agree with GO#40 and Nerve#38.
That was a close one. We came thiiiis close to the brink of madness.
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| 45 | GO
ID: 262151821
Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 23:35
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I say if a new guy is added mid draft then he is then eligible to be drafted. I don't think it matters. Congrats on having lucky timing if that guy was so valuable and your pick was up. I don't think any particularly high picks will be added so late in the game.
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| 46 | Boldwin
ID: 37321317
Wed, Apr 03, 2013, 18:43
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Agreed.
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