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Subject: Cuba
Posted by: Boldwin
- [510591420] Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 10:33
The flow of hostages to Cuba has now been approved by this administration. If this is what Raul Castro can extract from just one hostage...just imagine the bright future of communism in Cuba. |
| 1 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 10:45
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Kudos to Obama for finally paving the way for a return to civil relations with Cuba. Now, let's see if Congress will do the right thing and lift the embargo.
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| 2 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 12:05
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Why am I not surprised to find a liberal 'making the world safe for communism'.
Because they are closet marxists.
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| 3 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 19:17
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Silly me. I saw the thread title and thought maybe an intelligent discussion about the pros and cons of improving relations with Cuba, something many conservatives, business and religious leaders support, could develop.
I suppose I should have expected to be typecast as a liberal,
'making the world safe for communism'
as well as a closet Marxist.
That's quite hilarious, since my capitalist credentials are certainly more valid than Boldwin's, who outwardly cheers for the economy to collapse, so he can say he told you so. Faux conservatism hard at work.
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| 4 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Thu, Dec 18, 2014, 23:30
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Really, show me this conservative groundswell of support for normalized relations.
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| 5 | Mith
ID: 231150292
Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 07:36
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Breitbart CHAMBER OF COMMERCE 'WELCOMES' OBAMA CUBA ANNOUNCEMENT
Chamber of Commerce President and CEO Tom Donohue said the “U.S. business community welcomes today’s announcement, and has long supported many of the economic provisions the president touched on in his remarks.”
“We deeply believe that an open dialogue and commercial exchange between the U.S. and Cuban private sectors will bring shared benefits, and the steps announced today will go a long way in allowing opportunities for free enterprise to flourish,” he added. “In countries around the world, where leaders from across the political spectrum have made a concerted effort to liberalize their economy, we have seen a sharp rise in the quality of life of their citizens.”
“As we witnessed on our exploratory trip to Havana earlier this year, Cuba has changed some of its economic policies to lessen government control or ownership of Cuban businesses, and subsequently, their private sector is growing,” he concluded. “There is still work to do, on both sides of this relationship, but the changes outlined today are a substantive and positive step forward. It is imperative that the Cuban government build on today’s positive steps with a more ambitious economic reform agenda at home, while we continue to push for the end of the embargo here in Washington.”
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| 6 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 08:20
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Then there's Jeff Flake and Jason Chaffetz.
The LDS Church is licking its chops over the opening of fertile ground for its missionary program.
But you go on thinking only liberals, communist sympathizers and closet Marxists support the Cuba move. It's not like you're really concerned with your credibility anyway.
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| 7 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 11:21
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The Chamber of Commerce is that dark corner of the political world that has seduced an unfortunate percentage of Republicans into the 'evil combine of RINO's and Dems' that votes against conservatives.
Flake is a 'gang of 8' 'amnesty for illegals' republican that you are trying to foist off as a conservative.
LDS is no more inherently conservative than LaRouchies or libertarians. Only tangentially. Accidentally. Not by uniformly aligned principles.
Keep trying. Maybe there's a real one in there. Maybe there's a real conservatives won over by the 'trying the same thing and expecting different outcomes' argument. I'm not making a high stakes bet you can't find one but I'd be surprised.
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| 8 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 11:33
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AFAIK Chaffetz hasn't endorsed normalized diplomatic relations and dropping trade restrictions. He's OK with dropping travel restrictions. That's all.
Even Mexico has no problem holding innocent American's like Andrew Tahmooressi for years. I don't get why we let countries get away with it.
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| 9 | PV in Park Cityk
ID: 911531911
Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 12:54
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Keep trying? I linked to two conservatives, a religious organization and MITH linked to business leaders who all voiced support for Obama's Cuba action.
Moving the goal posts to satisfy your narrow and distorted definition of what constitutes a real conservative is you talking to yourself.
If anyone needs to keep trying, it's you, because you've failed to show that Flake, Chaffetz, the US chamber of commerce and the LDS Church are closet Marxists.
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| 10 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 17:19
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They aren't the devil. They are willing to make bad deals with the devil.
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| 11 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 12:19
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The Conservative Case for Normalizing Relations with Cuba
if conservatives really believe that America is the strongest country in the world—the strongest in every way, and not just military power—then we have to stop shrieking at Cuba like the housewife in a 1950s cartoon who just saw a mouse in the kitchen
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| 12 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 17:50
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Actually America has termites who have been tearing it apart at the foundations for a long long time. Conservatives know how deep the damage goes and that being number one is no longer a given.
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| 13 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 18:05
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Bleach around the foundation works fairly well
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| 14 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Sun, Dec 21, 2014, 19:45
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This is an "about damn time" moment on Cuba. The embargo, if it ever had a goal, stopped its effectiveness many, many years ago.
Time to let capitalism and freedom bring down Communism in Cuba.
Too bad some on the Right no longer believe in those things as forces of change.
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| 15 | Khahan
ID: 39113727
Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 00:07
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Let's put this another way boldwin - what possible strategic benefit is there to keep a permanent enemy right on our doorstep? One who will simply be friendly with our other enemies and provide our other enemies such as Russia a VERY strategic position in the Western Hemisphere?
Hmm. Nope, can't think of a single reason from a military perspective to keep Cuba at arms length.
You've got to at least admit that aspect as a good reason to improve relations with Cuba.
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| 16 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 09:26
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Also, given how Putin is going, getting Cuba closer to the US in this way helps prevent another possible Cuban Missile Crisis.
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| 17 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 12:56
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The Castro brothers don't hate us because we embargo them. They hate us because they are genocidal maniacs who hate capitalism and individual God given rights. This won't warm them to anyone in America who aren't card-carrying marxists.
This isn't strategically beneficial and prisoners in Cuba's gulag just sunk deeper into the dungeon muck.
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| 18 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 13:19
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Interestingly Senator Obama had a Cuba policy...Obama laid out his proposal in a May 23, 2008 speech in Miami. Noting the "unanswered cries of the political prisoners heard from the jails of Havana," Obama said his policy toward Cuba "will be guided by one word: libertad."
"The road to freedom for all Cubans must begin with justice for Cuba's political prisoners," Obama said. The value of the U.S. embargo against Cuba, Obama went on to explain, is that it "provides us with the leverage to present the regime with a clear choice: If you take significant steps towards democracy, beginning with the freeing of all political prisoners, we will take steps to begin normalizing relations." Of course we all know what happens when a foreign tyrant [as opposed to a domestic tyrant] butts heads with Obama. Who believes in his heart that America needs to be taken down a peg any way possible, and who believes that America is always the real problem.
We all know what happens when Obama 'draws a red line' in the sand.
It's all so predictable. As Joe Biden pointed out, inexperienced young guys like Obama have their mettle tested early and often and they are not respected until and unless they prove they deserve to be respected.
Thus Obama gets nothing in negotiations with foreign tyrants.
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| 19 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 13:51
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Unlike Jamaica, with its Bauxite deposits, Cuba has nothing to offer the United States. Its ONLY value is its strategic location as a haven for our potential adversaries.
There are plenty of opportunities for American businessmen there, no doubt. It can become the vacation spot it used to be in the 50s, but thats kinda where the opportunities end, unless you just want to exploit cheap labor and low cost overseas shipping. However, if that's all you want from Cuba, there are more friendly Carribean islands to exploit in that manner.
My biggest fear with normalizing relations with Cuba is a new wave immigrants from there that this country does not need to take responsibility for.
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| 20 | Khahan
ID: 5011412214
Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 15:41
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My biggest fear with normalizing relations with Cuba is a new wave immigrants from there that this country does not need to take responsibility for
I think we see that anyway.
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| 21 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 17:37
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However, if that's all you want from Cuba...
How anyone begins a conversation on Cuba that does not center on a prison system full of people whose only crime is wanting to be free...boggles my mind.
This has zero relationship to immigration, cheap labor, tourism opportunities, none of that stuff amounts to a hill of beans compared to the injustices happening in that island every day to those poor victims of Marxism.
The funny thing is how liberals see this situation. For them it's like one giant happy Buena Vista Social Club living in a romantic island paradise with cool old vintage cars and suave bad boy anti-americanism.
In reality they are wondering how they get their protein for the month...that rat scurrying under that ramshackle hovel next door maybe.
But hey, they can read and write about it someday when they manage to escape. Literacy....yeh!
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| 22 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 18:03
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But hey! Now you libs get to fly down to the one Potemkin village on the island where they actually can get paint and Miami Vice colors, be served dishes Cubans never get to eat, and pat each other on the back for the excellent place you and Castro have down here.
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| 23 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 19:29
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The funny thing is how liberals see this situation. For them it's like one giant happy Buena Vista Social Club living in a romantic island paradise with cool old vintage cars and suave bad boy anti-americanism.
The funny thing is how you make things up when the only apparent goal is to amuse yourself. No one has conjured up the conditions you describe, liberal or otherwise.
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| 24 | Boldwin
ID: 510591420
Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 19:34
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YOU amuse me endlessly, and yes, every liberal who is cheering because they can now travel to Cuba thinks like that.
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| 25 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Mon, Dec 22, 2014, 20:05
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You're embarrassing.
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| 26 | Bean
ID: 121011511
Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 11:53
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How anyone begins a conversation on Cuba that does not center on a prison system full of people whose only crime is wanting to be free...boggles my mind.
I only care about what's in it for us, and there is precious little. My conversation began with economic value of opening our doors to this poor country that historically holds us in contempt. There is none.
How bout I dont care about the political prisoners. One man's dissident is another's terrorist, I don't have time or desire to review each case of every prisoner in their penal system. It's a sovereign nation with a right to govern itself. If they hold US citizens that's a different thing, and I have to ask, what the hell a US citizen would be doing there that they could be detained.
Imagine if an outsider would debate the morality of our prisoners and claim that they are all political prisoners, we would be outraged. Where the hell do the American people get the idea that somehow we are responsible for other nation's behavior. This is why we are always at war.
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| 27 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Tue, Dec 23, 2014, 12:49
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That's an interesting point about the economic benefits. I haven't done much research, but surely the embargo has diminished the ability of Cuba to even have many exports (for instance) because of the cost of having to literally go around the United States.
Also, my understanding is that fuel shortages have led to incredibly an inefficient agricultural segment, so Americans hoping for cheap Cuban rum, cigars, and sugar might be in for a wait.
There is certainly a tourism angle, which means that, short-term, Cuba will be a lot like Haiti. But with a higher upside, I think, over the next 5-10 years.
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| 28 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Fri, Dec 26, 2014, 10:03
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Look, another closet Marxist!
Rand Paul agrees with Obama...Opening up Cuba is a good idea
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| 29 | Tree
ID: 161036918
Sat, Dec 27, 2014, 13:02
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certainly i'm not the only one who sees the bigger picture here? Cubans, Mexicans, Muslims, Obama, and so forth.
with Baldwin, it's skin tone. always has been, always will be.
it really doesn't matter if it's beneficial for this country or for the world at large. Baldwin isn't color blind - he literally - not figuratively - sees things in black and white, and the darker tone is always wrong.
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