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Subject: Anthrax in NY?
Posted by: Promize
- Sustainer [505262218] Fri, Oct 12, 11:10
CNN.com is now reporting a case of Anthrax has been reported in a NBC employee in New York. They don't have any specific details yet though.
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| 1 | walk
Sustainer
ID: 592181610
Fri, Oct 12, 11:57
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MSNBC, too. 10 blocks from where I type...ugh.
- walk
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| 2 | Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 4443038
Fri, Oct 12, 12:05
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Hey, Walk, could you...uh...cover your mouth when you talk.....oh, anthrax isn't contagious, is it....nevermind.
Seriously, the continuing mantra of the FBI, that these outbreaks have NOTHING to do with 9/11 are seemingly a little disingenious. They obviously have SOME connection, and the public shouldn't be talked to like a bunch of imbeciles when we all know differently.
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| 3 | Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 4443038
Fri, Oct 12, 12:42
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BTW, I've got a little free time on my hands today to actually mess around with my SW team and post on here because our local courthouse was evacuated today when a package containing a white powdery substance arrived. I can look out the window and see CDC and FBI pesonel as well as local law enforcement swarming about the place.
Several medical clinics were shut down in Lexington yesterday on similar occurences which turned out to be false alarms.
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| 4 | Ender
ID: 52438315
Thu, Oct 18, 10:41
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CBS now as well.
In addition, Kenya is reporting exposure tracing back to mail from the US. It seems both redundant and inefficient considering that it is not uncommon for people in Kenya to simply contract Anthrax due to condition in the country which of course also means they are used to dealing with it and are prepared to treat it.
I don't want to spread panic or forecast doom, but I am really starting to feel that all of this Anthrax exposue is merely a test on the part of the terrorists. There is probably one or more cells within the country responsible for this and they may or may not have knowledge of a greater plan which depends on information gathered from these attacks. The terrorist are probably gauging American measures for dealing with these tactics as well as monitoring how prepared we a re to deal with biological attacks before trying something bigger intended to cause greater exposure of a more serious illness.
I feel this way partly because I keep going back to this question: "Why Anthrax?" It's NOT easily communicable, and IS easily treated. They had to know they probably weren't going to KILL many people with this tactic. Of course part of the purpose is to incite fear and panic, but I think that it is either preparation for something bigger, or even a distraction intended to turn our attention away from a greater threat.
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| 5 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 258492618
Thu, Oct 18, 11:36
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Ender, I posted this on another thread, but it bears repeating: Anthrax is an excellent weapon of terror, but a poor one of mass murder. We're seeing its work right now.
pd
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| 6 | Ender
ID: 52438315
Thu, Oct 18, 11:49
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I understand by posting the above, that I am giving in to a degree. I guess from that standpoint the Anthrax is working.
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| 7 | Texas Flood
Donor
ID: 2110432013
Thu, Oct 18, 12:17
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Ender, hell the media is spreading more terror than the terrorists. the anthrax mailings have worked to prefection. i have this vision in my mind of a terrorist sitting on a sofa, watching tv, eating cheetos and drinking a coke laughing his ass off at us.
this is going to be a long ordeal with no quick fixes and things are going to get worse before they get better. these guys want all of us dead and the only answer is to kill them before they kill us.
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| 8 | Seattle Zen
ID: 37241120
Thu, Oct 18, 12:44
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Eating cheetos AND drinking a coke? Damn, don't these people know that can KILL you?
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| 9 | steve houpt
ID: 32954149
Thu, Oct 18, 13:27
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TF - agree, the media is doing a great job for whoever is sending the anthrax.
I could care less if the House shut down a day early. But listening to the news - "in an unprecedented move the U.S. Congress (ended up only being the House) has shut down for a week". They were already scheduled to be in recess Fri-Mon.
-----------------
Liked this story - The real danger from terrorists - Back in 1979, people all over the world were gripped with fear at the news that a space station called Skylab was about to fall out of orbit, hurtle through the atmosphere, and crash into Earth, where it might squash someone. Experts insisted that the risk was minimal, but the anxiety didn't subside.
So one entrepreneur offered a novel protective device: hats made of aluminum foil. His sales pitch was that though your chances of being hit by Skylab were low, your chances of being hit by Skylab while wearing an aluminum-foil hat were even lower.
Right now we could use some aluminum-foil hats to allay the widespread fear of being killed by terrorist mayhem. The danger is real, but judging from all available evidence, it's also very small. .................
Most of us are not destined to die at the hands of al Qaeda. But by overreacting to the specter of terrorism, Americans may end up doing things that will shorten their life expectancy. ............
One thing we've done is avoid commercial air travel. It certainly looks less safe than it did a few weeks ago, .............. The 266 airline passengers and crew members killed on Sept. 11 seems like a huge number, until you place it next to the more than 40,000 Americans killed in traffic accidents every year. ..............
The Wall Street Journal reports that many people have given up all the forms of discipline they had endured in hope of living long and healthy lives. Drinking and smoking are gaining in popularity, while exercise and dieting are on the decline. New York prostitutes report an increase in business. ............
Osama bin Laden, try as he may, probably can't kill many Americans. So what do you say we stop trying to do the job ourselves?
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| 10 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 44241819
Thu, Oct 18, 13:42
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Excercise and dieting are down, yet marriage proposals and committments of that sort are up, according to the New York Times on Sunday.
Looks like people have decided to start doing stuff they've been putting off, like getting fat and taking spouses....
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| 11 | James K Polk
ID: 355352418
Thu, Oct 18, 18:49
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PD -- in that vein, my personal favorite phenomenon has to be "terror sex"! :)
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| 12 | wildyams/katietx
ID: 309331418
Thu, Oct 18, 19:16
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Divorce filings are down as well.
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| 13 | steve houpt
ID: 59292117
Mon, Oct 22, 17:34
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Starting to look like just having the letters (especially if not completely sealed) pass through your facility was more dangerous than being around when the letter was opened.
Have heard some post office (sorting) equipment is cleaned with high pressure air. May have helped spread anthrax in the air.
Many questions now being asked why more post office workers were not tested. Medical and investigative services already stretched. Have to make some judgement calls. Guess hind sight is great for those asking.
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| 14 | LTA
ID: 240262918
Mon, Oct 22, 23:27
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Well, as someone who WORKS at a Processing and Distribution Center, yes, they clean all the equipment daily by taking high pressure air hoses, and spraying the insides of them down. There is a tremendous amount of paper dust that is generated by these high-speed machines (they run about 30,000 pieces of mail per hour through them at nominal speeds), so they need some way to clean all of that stuff out of there, or it would quickly cause them to fail. However, they were originally supposed to use suction to get it out of there. That took too long, and didn't work, so they switched over to the easy method, and blew all of that stuff out of there, into the air. My sinuses CONSTANTLY gave me problems when I worked out on the floor (currently in a front office job, doing computer work, so I am not exposed to it all the time, just when I have to go out onto the workroom floor to gather information). If a piece of mail went through one of these pieces of equipment, and it was a fairly bulky mailpiece that wasn't well sealed, then, yes, there is a better than average chance that it did put out some spores, that were eventually swished around the building by the maintainance personnel.
In regards to them not testing as soon as they could have, yes the medical community is stretched thin. However, this is not going to really go very far with most postal workers, as we have seen management basically ignore safety concerns in the past (far past and near past alike) in order to move the mail. One example that I personally was a part of should go a ways toward explaining why some of us are just a little upset about the seeming lack of concern over this. I worked on a machine sorting parcels. You generally are not looking too far ahead from the package that you currently are working on. However, I did a double take when I reached out to grab the next package, and realized it was soaked and leaking. My heart did a little flutter, when I saw the nice, bright orange Biohazard tag on the front of it, admonishing me to call the CDC if it was leaking. So, I got up, got my supervisor, and told her what was going on. I was thinking that we needed to evacuate the other 5 people on the machine and get them away from there, as there was a fan blowing right across my console, that caught everyone on the machine at some point in it's oscillation. Well, she called the janitors and her manager. No one was evacuated. I was told that I could go wash my hands, but then I had to go over to sort letters by hand with a bunch of other folks, while they figured out what this was, and if it was dangerous or not. I suggested that they get everyone off the machine, and that they should put me somewhere away from everyone else, until they figured it out. I was told not to worry about it, and to report to my new assignment. As it turns out, it was nothing big, just a bag of leaking saline solution. However, it COULD have been god knows what. We get all kinds of stuff through there on a daily basis. Just a generalization here (there ARE good managers out there, it's just that they don't show up all that often in the front lines), but most of us don't think that they will do the right thing for us, in a timely manner. When Daschle's office was exposed, they rushed right out and had them tested. Hell, they even closed down their offices. They knew the letters had to have come through SOMEWHERE. Yet, it at least gives the appearance of not caring by delaying this long to test their employees.
Sorry, I'll get off the soapbox now. I'm just a little miffed about it all. I work in one of these types of facilities. I go to work every day, to do the best I can at my job. I'm not terribly worried about this whole mess, as if it is going to happen, there is damned little we can realistically do to prevent it...only do damage control after the fact. However, it really annoys me when it appears that my employer doesn't seem to value my safety more than they value their bottom line.
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| 15 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 39911170
Mon, Oct 22, 23:46
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I agree, LTA. As much as I hate to see return of union v management fights, it doesn't appear that the postal officials are taking the health of their workers very seriously in this case--they seem to be almost waiting for something to happen before putting out the problem one brushfire at a time.
Here in New Jersey many, many postal workers are scare, especially after the deaths of the two workers in DC who appear to have been infected with the deadly inhaled version from the same letter.
It's easy to tell people to be calm, but another thing entirely to actually do something, like test postal workers and give everyone a seven-day supply of Cipro as a preventative. Waiting for anthrax to hit people does nothing to calm them down.
pd
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| 16 | steve houpt
ID: 59292117
Tue, Oct 23, 00:33
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PD - from what I understand, the postal service was not running the show. The CDC was/is.
How many places did the mail go between Trenton and CBS, NBC, NY Post and Congress (the ones with known anthrax)? CDC made the decision to initially test people and put them on 7 days of cipro where the letters were opened.
I guess to be 100% sure they should have tested all postal workers, any airline worker or truck service that might have carried those particular letters for the US Post Office. Easy to criticize CDC now, and maybe rightfully so. Regretfully people at the CDC and local health agencies had to make decisions on who and how many people should be tested initially. Not sure you can blame Post Office management for this. They may need blaming for other things.
A good friend of mine I used to work with whose husband works for the Post Office tells some stories about how the Post Office is run and management. I'd take the military ANY day before putting up with what I have heard from him. He just got caught up with to many years to give up. I don't think the term 'going postal' is all perception.
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| 17 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 39911170
Tue, Oct 23, 00:46
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I think you're right, steve.
Watched a Guiliani press conference, and they got tired of waiting for the delay in getting back anthrax test results so they asked for, and received, military Haz Mat units to do on-site testing and lab work to speed up the process.
In New Jersey, the problem isn't the CDC, but the fact that the Post Office management hasn't asked for the CDC to test people. The resources might be stretch thinly, but the one thing that management of any organization can do is identify problems in order to assign blameworthiness, rather than using those same resources to solve the problems in the first place.
pd
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| 18 | LTA
ID: 221050301
Tue, Oct 23, 00:59
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Steve-
Whether or not we should blame management, I guarantee you, owing to their past record, they will bear the brunt of the coming storm of resentment by postal employees over this. There have been too many instances of not doing the proper thing, or merely giving the appearance of doing the improper thing, in the past for most postal workers to overlook this one, and say "Oh, well, they merely made a miscalculation."
As far as testing the drivers, airline workers, et al, well, they, at the VERY LEAST should have done very thorough tests on the facilities that they KNEW these letters must have come through. If you test an OCR or DBCS (two of the high speed machines) and get back a trace of spores, it is well nigh time to start testing employees, espeically given their maintainence practices. As I stated before, they shut down office buildings on mere traces of spores (Pataki's office, the Senate buildings, AMI's building)...why not the postal facilities that processed these pieces as well, in order to thoroughly test them? THAT is what is going to really drive a wedge into this situation between employees at the post office and management. As I read on one of the AP articles, some of the employees at the Brentwood P&DC feel that they simply don't care about them.
Yes, you are correct about the CDC. They were performing triage on the situation, and at the same time attempting to not cause the kind of panic that would grip the public if 2000+ workers were suddenly tested en masse. But, what kind of panic are they going to cause now, with two workers dead, purportedly of pulmonary anthrax, and a couple others diagnosed and in not so good condition? I understand your arguement, and can even buy it intellectually. However, I don't think that they targeted ALL of the areas that they really should have initially.
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| 19 | steve houpt
ID: 59292117
Tue, Oct 23, 01:18
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LTA - I agree.
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| 20 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 258492618
Tue, Oct 23, 20:22
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The scientific journal Nature has put out a special issue on anthrax and provided free access:
Nature Special Issue
Haven't read it yet but wanted to share the link.
pd
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| 21 | Khahan
ID: 567232217
Wed, Oct 24, 2001, 12:03
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Just to pull this thread in another direction, I honestly don't think Al Qeada is behind the anthrax. Something about the whole scenario just does not fit how they operate.
In the past, they have taken small time measure to accomplish grandiose plans. By that I mean, they expend littl resource to accomplish a larger objective.
18 people and time/training is all it took of their own resources to topple the WTC and the Pentagon.
When they attempted to blow up the WTC a couple of years ago, they used a rental vehicle (again, not their resources) and cheap explosives.
Now, anthrax is readily available, but its not cheap.
Also, their methods are more direct and overt. If they are going to destroy something, they destroy it. Bin Laden, in the past (that we know of) has not relied on the people he is attacking to do themselves in. His people take the plane. His people drive the truck. With anthrax, the victim contaminates himself.
Personally, I think its a citizen within our own country. For whatever personal reason he has. He's decided to use now as his time to start his own wave of terror.
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| 22 | astade
ID: 1533770
Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 22:06
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An interesting account of the Anthrax case
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| 23 | Building 7
ID: 174591519
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 23:09
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The Bush/Cheney administration wants us to believe that Bruce Ivins was the lone suspect in this case, and the case is now closed with his "suicide" from taking too much Tylenol 3. And for most people this good enough. They're not really paying attention. And most of Big Media asks no questions.
But there is little evidence that Ivins did it.
And, IMO, the real culprits are still out there.
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| 24 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Wed, Aug 20, 2008, 06:59
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That was very very convincing. Eisenhower is looking especially precient at the moment.
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| 25 | Building 7
ID: 174591519
Sun, Sep 07, 2008, 08:55
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Seeking Details, Lawmakers Cite Anthrax Doubts ....New York Times article.
An excerpt, my comments in brackets.
Officials also acknowledged that they did not have a single, definitive piece of evidence indisputably proving that Dr. Ivins mailed the letters — no confession, no trace of his DNA on the letters, no security camera recording the mailings in Princeton, N.J. (And about 10 other things)
But they said the case consisted of a powerfully persuasive accumulation of incriminating details. Dr. Vahid Majidi, head of the F.B.I.’s weapons of mass destruction directorate, said the accumulation of evidence against Dr. Ivins was overwhelming: his oversight of the anthrax supply (Him and 300 other people had access to the strain), his night hours (Were not long enough to prepare weoponized anthrax), his mental problems (Caused by the FBI harassment of him and his family and co-workers) and his habit of driving to far-off locations at night to mail anonymous packages. (This is just a bizaar allegation that goes unchallenged by the New York Times stenographers )
Big Government claims they have some more evidence they will be revealing in the coming months. So, I'll keep an eye out for it, although nobody else could give a flying f...
Does anybody wonder why only Democrats were sent letters? Ivins was a life-long Democrat by the way.
Does anybody wonder why the letters suddenly stopped; even though they seemed to be working so well from the senders perspective.
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| 26 | Building 7
ID: 471052128
Tue, Nov 04, 2008, 14:02
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Scientists Slam FBI Anthrax Probe....New York Post article
Excerpts:
In interviews with a dozen of Ivins' colleagues at the US Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID) at Fort Detrick, his friends and independent scientists, The Post found many of them would speak only on the condition of anonymity because they believed they were still under FBI surveillance and their phones were being tapped.
Together, those closest to Ivins cited a laundry list of holes in the feds' conclusions. They include:
1) Ivins could not have made dry anthrax spores in his lab without sickening people.
2) Records show that Ivins logged an average of only two hours of overtime in the weeks leading up to the attacks - and even at those times, he could not have gone undetected.
Even if Ivins did have access to a freeze-drying machine and a protective hood, sources who worked closely with Ivins estimate it would take a minimum of 40 days of continuous work without detection to create the volume of spores used in the attacks.
3) The FBI called Ivins the "sole custodian" of the strain of anthrax used in the mailings. But at least 200 people had access to the strain created by Ivins at Fort Detrick.
4) The FBI has not released any physical evidence linking Ivins to the attacks or defined a motive.
5) The FBI investigation was filled with inconsistencies and bordered on harassment.
Since the investigation against Ivins began, workers at USAMRIID have been forced to sign confidentiality agreements.
FBI spokeswoman Debbie Weierman said: "The FBI is still handling administrative business and closing the loop on outstanding issues. Therefore, the investigation is still pending. However, the case has been solved; as the FBI and the Department of Justice have stated publicly.
"The FBI is absolutely positive that Dr. Bruce Ivins and only Dr. Bruce Ivins was responsible for the anthrax mailings."
Me: So, the case is solved, but the investigation is still pending. The FBI will not explore any other leads or consider other alternatives, because the case is solved. However they will also not answer any questions or release people from confidentiality agreements, because the investigation is still pending!
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| 27 | Building 7
ID: 70243116
Thu, Feb 26, 2009, 20:58
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Anthrax spores don't match dead researcher's samples
There goes Exhibit A.
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| 28 | Building 7
ID: 70243116
Thu, Feb 26, 2009, 21:26
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sandia-national-laboratories-tests exonerate Ivins
Here's another link. That's strange. That Raw Story link in #27 detrimental to the FBI, was working, and then now it's not working. 24 hours to fill on the cable news channel, no time for this story.
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| 29 | Building 7
ID: 43735169
Mon, Jan 25, 2010, 23:25
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The Anthrax Attacks Remain Unsolved
Updated story... but from a bigger newspaper. Still doesn't look like Bruce Ivins did it, so the killer remains on the loose.
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| 30 | astade
Sustainer
ID: 214361313
Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 00:00
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B7, thanks for staying true to form and not letting this die. I appreciate the additional information put forth by that article...I wish we were headed towards more answers, but all I have are more questions. Where did the high level of silicon come from?
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| 31 | Building 7
ID: 471052128
Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 16:05
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From the lack of comments, it looks like we are the only two interested in commenting on this story, astade.
Where did the high level of silicon come from?
Not from Bruce Ivins. It came from the U.S. government, though. Eight years and a multi-million dollar settlement with a wrongly-accused person (Hatfill) and an innocent dead man (Ivins).....and the killer remains on the loose. Nice job FBI. You're lucky that this story is of little interest to Big Media. And why is that?
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| 32 | biliruben
ID: 461142511
Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 16:29
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I do find this interesting.
I am not sure where you are going with the big media thing, however. You think there is some cover up? WSJ isn't big media?
Personally I thought the original scare was pretty over-blown. As a weapon of mass destruction, Anthrax ain't all that. Weapon of mass hysteria, maybe.
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| 33 | WTC Building 7
ID: 229152116
Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 17:04
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I guess there was a NYT and NY Post story earlier. Little from the news cable channels that have to fill 24 hours.
And they say there have been no terrorist attacks since 911. They always forget about this one. Unless being attacked with weaponized anthrax by members of our own government does not count as terrorism.
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| 34 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 17:08
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And they say there have been no terrorist attacks since 911. They always forget about this one.
this is a good point, good for keeping us aware...more info on the own government part?
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| 35 | astade
Sustainer
ID: 214361313
Fri, Feb 19, 2010, 22:56
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The case is closed?
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| 36 | Building 7
ID: 526218
Tue, Mar 16, 2010, 11:49
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White House has threatened to veto the intelligence budget unless everyone accepts the FBI frame up of Dr. Bruce Ivins
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| 37 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710
Tue, Mar 16, 2010, 11:53
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"I call. Veto it."
"Damn, I was bluffing."
That's the conversation I'd like to see happen there.
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| 38 | Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 13:56
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Independent panel finds that science linking Ivins to government anthrax spores was inconclusive
A newly released report produced by a panel of independent scientists asserts that there was not enough scientific evidence for the FBI to convict their prime suspect in the 2001 anthrax attacks, vindicating those who have consistently pointed to a deeper conspiracy behind the case.
“This shows what we’ve been saying all along: that it was all supposition based on conjecture based on guesswork, without any proof whatsoever,” Paul Kemp, a lawyer who represented Ivins, told The Washington Post.
..........................
And the real weaponized anthrax manufacturer and the anthrax mailer remain on the loose after 9 years.
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| 39 | Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Sun, Jul 24, 2011, 09:11
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DOJ casts serious doubt on its own claims about the anthrax attack by Glenn Greenwald at Salon.com
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