Forum: pol
Page 2360
Subject: Who planned 9/11?


  Posted by: ukula - [18440414] Wed, May 04, 2005, 16:18

I've just watched a few 9/11 conspiracy documentaries and I must say that I find them very disturbing. This coming from someone who voted for Bush and someone who never had any reason to doubt the government's terrorist theory. Has anyone else viewed these videos?

Is it possible that our government orchestrated a new "Pearl Harbor" to justify three wars (Afghanistan, Iraq, Terror)?

Things that are the most disturbing:

1. If you watch video of the Pentagon aftermath and look at pictures of the building before the roof collapsed it certainly does not appear that a plane the size of a Boeing 757 ever hit the Pentagon. If that is the case, then why is the government lying to us? and why have we never seen any Boeing wreckage or the actual impact from one of the many security cameras on top of the Pentagon? If that is true, then what happened to the actual flight 77?


2. Why does the 2nd plane to hit the Towers look very similar to a military plane (from the actual footage), including no AA logo and no windows (from eyewitnesses), and something on the underside of the plane that resembles a missile pod (from video analysis)? Why is there a 'flash of light' from both planes a half-second prior to impact (this can be viewed from many different angles on plane #2)? If these were military planes what happened to the actual flights?

3. Why did WTC7 mysteriously collapse at 5:30? The landlord of WTC admitted on PBS that they "pulled" it (demolished it with explosives) because the fires were out of hand (even though video shows that they were very small fires). According to companies that demolish buildings with explosives, it takes a few weeks to setup a building with explosives prior to a controlled demolition. If that is the case, why was this building lined with explosives at least two weeks prior to 9/11?

4. Why were there so many eyewitness reports of bombs going off in the towers (from live coverage on CBS, ABC, NBC, CNN, etc..)?

5. Why did eyewitnesses in Pennsylvania claim that flight 93 was shot down by a military aircraft? The wreckage was apparently spread over eight miles - consistant with a plane being shot down versus one that just crashed due to a struggle with the pilot. What is the truth?



 
1Perm Dude
      ID: 17321143
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 16:19
We've covered a number of these conspiracy theories already, uke.
 
2ukula
      ID: 18440414
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 16:21
And? Where is this thread? What was the consensus?
 
3Tree
      ID: 9362211
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 16:38
Christians did it.
 
4Gmoney
      Donor
      ID: 5810561615
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 16:57
Yes, I recall post 3 was the consensus.
 
5bibA
      Sustainer
      ID: 261028117
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 18:27
ukula - Where were the documentaries aired? I would be interested in seeing them, although it would take some convincing for me to buy into any gov't. conspiracies.
 
6Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 18:42
The 9/11 Commission Report: Ommissions and Distortions by David Ray Griffin

This book explains why the 9/11 commission rivals the Warren Commission for cover-up. To date, there has been no independent investigation of the biggest crime ever perpetrated on this country.
 
7ukula
      ID: 259101021
      Wed, May 04, 2005, 20:04
bibA - That's the problem, they weren't aired at all by the major networks. What puzzles me is that just by looking at the video evidence a number of questions arise, but why aren't the major networks asking any of these questions? Is our free press really free? One of the documentaries that I saw was "In Plane Site" from this website:

In Plane Site

The other one was "Painful Deceptions" from this guy:

Painful Deceptions

Another website to try is reopen911.org

Look back at my old posts, you'll see I was pro-Bush, pro-war, etc., but after watching these films I have some serious doubts about who is responsible for these attacks. I'd like to hear from some of you who actually take the time to watch these. It's quite scary to think that our government may have murdered thousands of its' own citizens for political purposes. I'd like to hear what others think - only those that take the time to watch some films please.

 
8Punk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 036635522
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 01:05
The problem with all of this is you can make anything look like you want it to. Two people looking at video can get two different idea's. But throw in someone on the video telling you what's happening and you believe it more. Alot of us on the board have seen tons of different Flash Movies and what not on everything to do with 9-11. When it comes to 9-11 no one will ever know the "Truth" unless you were part of it. It will go on for decades if it was real or faked.
 
10TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 01:54
Your anti-Christian stuff is beyond tiresome. I just erased two paragraphs that would have likely turned this thread into a blown out hate thread. You'd be crying anti-semite if 1/10 of the bs you spew about Christians was said about Jews on this forum.

Back on topic: I watched some of the videos and am still having a hard time believing what they are trying to say. Many questions come to mind and so many people would have to have been involved. Eyewitnesses near the pentagon crash saw the plane. People who talked to loved ones from Flight 93.
 
11Tree
      ID: 28430321
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 07:11
Your anti-Christian stuff is beyond tiresome. I just erased two paragraphs that would have likely turned this thread into a blown out hate thread. You'd be crying anti-semite if 1/10 of the bs you spew about Christians was said about Jews on this forum.

what anti-Christian stuff?

here's some help for ya, presuming you're referencing my above post:
Main Entry: sar·casm
Pronunciation: 'sär-"ka-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwar&s- to cut
1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain (tired of continual sarcasms)
2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm (this is no time to indulge in sarcasm)


it was never intended as a serious opinion as to who perpetuated 9/11, and i'm pretty sure just about everyone who posts here got that. heck, i think even GMoney got that, and i know he and i are oil and water with our beliefs.

point out to me where i've been anti-Christian. start a whole thread, and cut and paste (without removing the context please), and show me where i'm anti-Christian.

personally, i think you've got an issue because you want people to hate Christians, so you can have a chance to say "told ya so!" - but not once have i embraced any hatred toward Christianity.

If you'd actually bother to read my posts, instead of attempting to read into my posts (of which you're doing a poor job, apparently), you'd see countless time where i embraced all, with the exception of those i believe to be bigoted, or trying to force their beliefs on me...
 
12Texas Flood
      ID: 2341216
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 08:24
So you're pro Christian?, Neutral or Anti? Which is it? What's your "Official" position so we'll all be clear from here on out.
 
13Motley Crue
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 11:10
What did post 9 say?

TF, are you for real? You need him to make a sweeping statement about a religious group? I don't see that as helpful. People are people: it ain't about religion.
 
14Texas Flood
      ID: 326462912
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 11:15
Why? sweeping statements are made here all the time. I'll hide behind sarcasam;).
 
15Punk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 036635522
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 11:44
Just out of left field here about your question. Since tree is Jewish i'm going out on a limb to say he isn't pro-christian.
 
16Perm Dude
      ID: 17321143
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 11:56
Earlier thread on the Pentagon plane. With our resident conspiracy theorist weighing in with the belief that it was just a plane, I think we might be able to put that safely in the "urban legend" category.

As for the WTC7 collapse, there are a number of strawman assumptions being made:

-that the same number and type of explosions are needed to collapse a whole but aged building as opposed to one which suffered extreme damage from fire and falling pieces of the WTC;

-that the interior fires (which burn with much greater intensity and cause far more damage) can be seen and evaluated from outside video;

pd
 
18Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 35241288
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 12:04
What in the world is "pro Christian"? And what does being Jewish have to do with whether someone is "pro Christian"?

Really, Tree is not that hard to read. And for those of you who think he is, he has explained himself many times over, TF.

He has no beef with Christianity, but he takes great excepton to people who (as he has frequently said) "use religion as a weapon", as many Christians, Muslims and Jews (among others) do. In Tree's opinion, many Christians in positions of power here in the US are using their religion to impose or force their value systems on the rest of us. To a large extent I agree, even though I do often wish Tree would be more discerning with how he expresses these sentiments.
 
19Toral
      ID: 14263120
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 12:14
Tree also objects to anyone who thinks that his or her religion is "better than his". He calls such people haters, and has said that he hates them. Under his definition, that class would seem to include anyone (Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc.) who dares to believe that his or her religious believes are correct, and therefore might implicitly disagree with Tree's religion.

Such people, as Tree said in 11 are "bigoted, or trying to force their beliefs on me..." He has said many times that he hates such people, and on at least two occasions has stated that such people will go to Hell, if there is one, that they are deserving of Hell and that he looks forward to the idea of them going there.

Pause.

There are many evangelical or sectarian Christians on this board. Have you ever seen any of them say that they hate their adversaries, and look forward to seeing them go to Hell? Literally?

No.

Tree is one of a kind in this respect.

Toral

 
20Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 12:16
As for the WTC7 collapse, there are a number of strawman assumptions being made:

The only reason they are strawman assumptions is because there was no investigation aimed at finding out why a 47 story burning building, for the first time in history, implded perfectly in its footprint. The only investigation was done by FEMA, even though it is a non-investigative agency. FEMA assembled a group of volunteer investigators, whose access to the disaster site was limited to a "guided tour."

In May of 2002 FEMA's team released its report. The report's authors seem to be certain that fire caused the collapse, but admit to being clueless about how fires did what they have never done before.



FEMA's report stated:

The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analysis are needed to resolve this issue.
By the time the report was published, nearly all of the steel had been removed from Building 7's site, most without examination, and was recycled, mostly in India and China. The steel would not be of much use to further research and investigation after it had been through a blast furnace. This evidence destruction operation was conducted over the objections fire safety officials, fire-fighters, and victims' families.

link

There are more thorough inquiries every race day at Belmont Park.
 
21Tree
      ID: 9362211
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 12:41
MITH is correct on all accounts, reading me well from my sentiments to the fact i oughta shut my trap a little bit.

that being said, Toral the mean-spirited hater apparently couldn't read a book that was open in front of him...
 
22Toral
      ID: 53422511
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 12:44
What did I get wrong, Tree? Please correct my summary of your views as you have stated them.

Toral
 
23Perm Dude
      ID: 17321143
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 12:46
PV: One implication in your note is that the recycled steel was sent overseas in order to hide something. No one domestically, however, was taking steel from any of the WTC buildings. It was sent overseas because that was the only place it could go.
 
24Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 12:56
One implication in your note is that the recycled steel was sent overseas in order to hide something.

The implication is that critical evidence in a crime was discarded. Whether it was done intentionally to hide something or just gross incompetence really doesn't matter, except that it is just another part of the attack that has never been properly investigated, especially given the suspicious circumstances of the collapse and FEMA's own admission that further research, investigation, and analysis are needed to resolve this issue.
 
25Tree
      ID: 9362211
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 12:59
What did I get wrong, Tree? Please correct my summary of your views as you have stated them.

did i ever say i look forward to anyone going to hell?

as for the one of a kind statement, you can turn the mirror inwards for starters, because plenty of your drunken rants have expressed hate.

being called a murderer by someone, is an expression of hate.

so preach on brother Toral, preach on.
 
26Toral
      ID: 53422511
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 13:13
When have I ever called someone a murderer? Was it about the Schiavo issue? By all means bring it up.
On the notorious occasion when I defamed you and apologized, I don't think I said that. In any case, my understanding was that you accepted the apology. It was apparently a conditional acceptance, in that you feel free to bring the matter up again whenever you get mad. So be it. It was an unconditional apology, so you may bring the matter up again whenever you choose.

plenty of your drunken rants have expressed hate

I disagree. Feel free to bring up examples of "plenty" of rants expressing hate.

I believe that you are understandably taking the opportunity to characterize me adversely ("plenty of drunken rants") in order to avoid facing the consequences of your own statements and actions. I can't blame you for that; but I don't think it will help you on the Board, or help you personally to come to grips with the comments you have made.

Toral

 
27tastethewaste
      ID: 251043226
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 13:40
can both of you just shut up, im trying to read here.
 
28sarge33rd
      ID: 2442512
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 13:43
ukula, these and other conspiracy theories abounded shortly after 9/11 and this board I think looked at most all of them. Particularly those contending that no a/c hit the Pentagon. They have been thoroughly, totally debunked as just so much hogwash.

Re the a/c over the skies of Pennsylvania. I doubt it was shot down by military a/c, but if it were, so what? That terrorists were onboard is not in question. That the plane would have struck somewhere and killed many hundreds if not brought down, is not in question. Does it really make a difference to us here, now, almost 3 years later, whether it went down due to outside intervention or by intervention of passengars?
 
29tastethewaste
      ID: 251043226
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 13:52
sarge, of course it matters, it means we were lied to. The next question would be why lie? and take it from there.
 
30Perm Dude
      ID: 17321143
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 13:56
It matters for that reason, but there are certain military operations for which lying is not only allowed but expected. The PA flight might be one of those cases.

I've mentioned this before, but I have a guy who is a classic conspiracy debunker (and one of the smartest people I know), but who believes that the flight was shot down.
 
31ukula
      ID: 2848510
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 14:00
sarge - Since the "conspiracy thoeries" have been "thouroughly, totally debinked", please post a picture of Boeing 757 wreckage in or outside the pentagon on 9/11/01. Since they have been thouroughly debunked I'm sure you have these pictures at your disposal.

Thanks,

ukula
 
32Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 14:00
They have been thoroughly, totally debunked as just so much hogwash.

Just to set the record straight, that is opinion, not fact, especially as related to the Pentagon attack.

 
33ukula
      ID: 2848510
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 14:14
"Particularly those contending that no a/c hit the Pentagon".

I think we can all agree that an air conditioner did not strike the pentagon, now if we can only find pictures of that Boeing....
 
34sarge33rd
      ID: 2442512
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 14:19
the Pentagon strike has been debunked and posted multiple times on these threads. I simply dont have the time to filter through 3 years worth of threads, looking for it on your behals Ukula. Try googling for a debunking explanation.
 
35Perm Dude
      ID: 17321143
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 14:21
ukula, it might be worth it, if you are really looking for the truth and not just venting after watching some slick and biased video, to at least read the other side
 
36sarge33rd
      ID: 2442512
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 14:23
here's a "starting off point" for you;

9/11 Myths Debunked by Popular Mechanics of all sources
 
37ukula
      ID: 2848510
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 14:23
The 9/11 Commission didn't have the time to look into it either....
 
38Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 14:29

Since the "conspiracy thoeries" have been "thouroughly, totally debinked", please post a picture of Boeing 757 wreckage in or outside the pentagon on 9/11/01. Since they have been thouroughly debunked I'm sure you have these pictures at your disposal.



Here you go - from the other thread twice linked for you here.
 
39Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 14:32
From a post by bili in the same twice linked thread:

Through much brow-beating, during a visit this weekend, I got my dad (who is an honest-to-goodness rocket scientist and was an air-force pilot in his day, and has lectured on WMD) to watch the pentagon conspiracy theory film and attempt to address some of it's questions.

Though he thought the whole thing was utter nonsense, and brought up the valid point that we have no idea if the pics were doctored, assuming that the pics are real, he brought up two main points:

1) (not having anything to do with his expertise) What happenned to the 757 and all it's occupants? Wouldn't the loved-ones of the pilot, crew and passengers that were supposedly killed have mentioned that they were alive? If the 757 was instead shot down, where is the wreckage?

2) What did hit the pentagon, if not a plane? Air-to-air or surface to air missiles pack only 20-50 lbs of explosives. They couldn't have possibly done the damage seen. They wouldn't have gotten past the 1st ring. Perhaps a cruise missile, with 2000 lbs of explosives, fired from a submarine or ship off the coast could have done the damage, but that would have warranted an enormous and implausible amount of cover-up.

He met with someone who saw the attack, who verified that it was indeed a 757 with it's engines wound all the way up, and he speculated based on what he saw that it bounced right before the pentagon, immediately turned into a massive fireball, and plowed into the pentagon at enormous speeds, with the majority of the fusalage and wings simply burning up with the tremendous heat of the fire, similar to what we saw with the WTC attacks.
 
40Toral
      ID: 53422511
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 14:58
I may be behind the curve here, but...

Was there an official U. S. Government statement about how the plane in Pennsylvania went down? What did it say?

Toral
 
41Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 17:22
For those who are gullible enough to think that Popular Mechanics skewed article by Ben Chertoff, Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff's cousin, is some kind of actual independent investigation that puts to rest all the unanswered questions of 9/11, then please ignore this story, one of hundreds that debunks the debunking.

Popular Mechanics Attacks Its 9/11 Lies Straw Man
 
42Perm Dude
      ID: 17321143
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 17:30
Read that one, PV. Love how they threw in all sorts of things about truck ads, etc to bolster their own arguments against the article.
 
43sarge33rd
      ID: 2442512
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 17:51
PV...I believe I said it was a "starting off point". Not meant to be a total debunking, but a place to begin.
 
44Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Thu, May 05, 2005, 18:28
PD,
How is that any different than Popular Mechanics calling the worl serious 9/11 researchers have done, an ,assault on the truth?

Just look at what they claim are irrefutable facts about the WTC7 collapse.

With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated."

Is a "working hypothesis" a fact? Which NIST researchers? Any footnotes?

NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST's analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of "progressive collapse," a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down.

Again, which NIST investigators believe( believing in something is not a fact, BTW)?

Requires more research?

Analysis suggests? Not facts.

This is a theory, like anyone else's theory.

 
45Baldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Fri, May 13, 2005, 16:54
I am not overly interested in examining this with a microscope atm...

Mystery plane with 200 passengers unaccounted for

...but after all the 'if it didn't hit the pentagon where did it go then', reasoning, this draws you up short.
 
46Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Fri, May 13, 2005, 20:07
If there are, as PD suggests, areas in which gov't lying is not only allowed but condoned, then we'll have to find one of the liars in order to discover the truth.(assuming there's a truth to find.) But real conspiracies usually fail to remain secret because it's just too hard to keep that many people silent for long periods of time.

Don
 
47Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Fri, May 13, 2005, 20:24
real conspiracies usually fail to remain secret because it's just too hard to keep that many people silent for long periods of time.

The murders of JFK, RFK and MLK,Jr would dispute that statement, IMO.
 
48Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Fri, May 13, 2005, 20:27
PV: I think those murders make the point if you argue that there were no conspiracies in the cases you cite. I've never beleived in the Kennedy assassination just because it would have been too hard to cover up.

Don
 
49Baldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Fri, May 13, 2005, 20:54
I guess I should give you this as well.
 
50Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Fri, May 13, 2005, 20:57
I'm not following. Are you saying you don't believe in the the official Warren Commission position that Oswald acted alone, or are you saying you do believe in that position?
 
51Baldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Fri, May 13, 2005, 21:18
Also significant. Of exactly what I don't know. I hate to say it looks to me like they are making the world safe for a bio-attack while making themselves harder to trace. If they kill or terrorize all the detectives...

 
52Baldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Fri, May 13, 2005, 21:25
And for the Catholics, a Catholic conspiracy involving the 33 day papacy of Pope John Paul I and the P2 lodge.
 
53Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Fri, May 13, 2005, 22:13
PV: I'm saying that I don't believe there was a conspiracy, whether or not the Warren Commission got all their facts straight. It is inconceivable to me that a secret of that magnitude was kept.

Don
 
54katietx
      ID: 15420101
      Fri, May 13, 2005, 22:32
Re: 52 - here we go again; lets go after the Mason's!!

My God, they're to blame for almost everything. I'm sure one of the terrorists from 9/11 was a Mason; how about OKC?

Wonder if Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby, et al, were Mason's?

Oh, and John Wilkes Booth too!
 
55sarge33rd
      ID: 15420101
      Fri, May 13, 2005, 22:47
Who planned 9/11?

From reading this forum, the unitiated would most likely come away from it believing that Gay-Masonic-Arabs are behind every ailment known to modern American society. And if not those folks, then it HAS to be either the French or those damnable enviro-weenies. Oh wait, maybe its those death dealing doctors, or is it the activist judges? I just get sooooooooooooooooo confused.
 
56Baldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sat, May 14, 2005, 08:50
John Wilkes Booth, it is well established, was in fact a member of the KNIGHTS OF THE GOLDEN CIRCLE.
"Don't wish to disturb you. Are you at home? J. Wilkes Booth."

In an act that would haunt Andrew Johnson during his impeachment trial; just seven hours before Lincoln's assassination, John Wilkes Booth left a note at Vice President Andrew Johnson's residence that read "Don't wish to disturb you. Are you at home? J. Wilkes Booth."

Shortly after his impeachment investigation began, Albert Pike and Gen. Gordon Granger met with President Andrew Johnson for some three hours at the White House. Soon afterwards, when Granger was summoned before the Judiciary Committee, he was asked to disclose the substance of that conversation with the president. Granger testified:

"They [President Johnson and Pike] talked a great deal about Masonry. More about that than anything else.. And from what they talked about between them, I gathered that he [Pike] was the superior of the President in Masonry. I understood from the meeting that the president was his subordinate in Masonry...."
A very small amount of work would be required to google your way to learning what Albert Pike means to freemasonry.

But the story goes back further of course...


* Washington’s letter to Rev. Snyder appears in Volume 36 of The Writings of George Washington (U.S. Government Printing Office) and pertains to an important book on the Illuminati, entitled Proofs of a Conspiracy, by a distinguished Scottish professor, John Robison. Washington shared Robison’s alarm over the dangers posed by this nefarious sect. At the same time as Robison, but working completely independently, Abbe Augustin Barruel authored an even more detailed indictment of the Illuminati, entitled Memoirs Illustrating the History of Jacobinism. Both of these important works are now back in print and can be obtained from www.aobs-store.com/conspiracy/ (click on "additional books" for ordering information on Memoirs).
Snyder's letter...
Rev. G.W. Snyder, who said he was with the Reformed Church of Fredericktown, Maryland,(46) sent Washington a letter on August 22, 1798, saying, "a Society of Free Masons, that distinguished itself by the name of 'Illuminati,' whose Plan is to over throw all Government and all Religion....it might be within your power to prevent the Horrid plan from corrupting the brethren of the English Lodges over which you preside."
Washington's reply...
"... So far as I am acquainted with the principles and Doctrines of Free Masonry, I conceive them to be founded on benevolence and to be exercised for the good of mankind. If it has been a Cloak to promote improper or nefarious objects, it is a melancholly proof that in unworthy hands, the best institutions may be made use of to promote the worst designs. [first draft - B]

"... to correct an error ..., of my presiding over English Lodges in this country. The fact is I preside over none, nor have I been in one more than once or twice within the last thirty years...."

"... [referring to] the doctrines of the Illuminati, and principles of Jacobism ... in the United States....I did not believe that the Lodges of Freemasons in this Country had, as Societies, endeavored to propagate the diabolical tenets of the first, or the pernicious principles of the latter.... That individuals of them may have done it ... is too evident to be questioned...." - George Washington
Onward...
"I saw a code of Masonic legislation adapted to prostrate every principle of equal justice and to corrupt every sentiment of virtuous feeling in the soul of him who bound his allegiance to it.

"I saw the practice of common honesty, the kindness of Christian benevolence, even the abstinence of atrocious crimes; limited exclusively by lawless oaths and barbarous penalties, to the social relations between the Brotherhood and the Craft. I saw slander organize into a secret, widespread and affiliated agency....I saw self-invoked imprecations of throats cut from ear to ear, of hearts and vitals torn out and cast off and hung on spires. I saw wine drunk from a human skull with solemn invocation of all the sins of its owner upon the head of him who drank it."

President John Quincy Adams
Here is Katie's que to tell us I and President Adams have no idea what we are talking about.
It is useless to deny, because it is impossible to conceal, that a great part of Europe--the whole of Italy and France and a great portion of Germany, to say nothing of other countries--is covered with a network of these secret societies, just as the superficies of the earth is now being covered with railroads.

Benjamin Disraeli

Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.

President Woodrow Wilson

July 14, 1856
Or President Wilson

Perhaps you recall that the Italian government made a huge anti-mafia effort a while back. With special courts and special prisons for the protection of the justice system, they were so afraid of the mafia...here is one of their conclusions...
The committee feels that the link between Cosa Nostra and institutions is mostly through the "Massoneria" (freemasonry):

The fundamental terrain on which the link between Cosa Nostra with public officials and private professions was created and reinforced is the Massoneria. The Massoneria bond serves to keep the relationship continuous and organic. The admission of members of Cosa Nostra, even at high levels, in Massoneria is not an occassional or episodical one, but a strategic choice. The oath of allegence to Cosa Nostra remains the pivot point around which "uomini d'onore" (men of honor) are prominently held. But the Massoneria associations offer the mafia a formidible instrument to extend their own power, to obtain favors and privileges in every field: both for the conclusion of big business and "fixing trials", as many collaborators with justice have revealed.

Commissione Parlamentare d'inchiesta sul fenomeno della mafia e sulle altre associazioni criminali similari
(CPA: Commissione Parlamentare Antimafia)
Relazione sui Rapporti tra Mafia e Politica, Page 59
Roma, 1993
...now ask youself why the supposed 'war on drugs' is a lost cause. And why the CIA was the source of golden triangle drugs, or why the afghan herion trade is in full bloom, or why Mena Arkansas was a politically well connected drug terminal.

Of course from the patron saint of Mena to the governorships of the drug importation states of Texas and Florida, to the white house the story goes on.
 
57sarge33rd
      ID: 15420101
      Sat, May 14, 2005, 09:55
just like the "game" 7 Steps to Kevin Bacon, I think you'd be hard pressed not to be able tie almost anything, to almost anyone, if you dug hard enough. Careful Baldy, if the Masons are indeed this evil sinister empire building secret organization, and you keep publicly ranting upon them, you just might disappear one day.
 
58Baldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sat, May 14, 2005, 10:06
No rant, just a series of quotes.

People who know whereof they speak.
 
59sarge33rd
      ID: 15420101
      Sat, May 14, 2005, 13:55
People who know whereof they speak.

IOW, people with whom you agree on this particular subject matter.
 
60Baldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sat, May 14, 2005, 14:22
People can judge the sources I quoted for themselves.

 
61katietx
      ID: 15420101
      Sat, May 14, 2005, 21:25
Re: 56 and the Mafia...

Interesting that most of those in Italy that would be associated w/the Mafia are likely Catholics. It would be completely against their religious practices to be involved with the Masons.

The Catholic church is the one that declares Mason's an unholy lot, so it is not surprising the source you quote.

Once again I will state that almost my entire family were members of the Masonic Lodge/Eastern Star/Demolay/Rainbow Girls.

Not one of us worship the devil, intend on spreading evil about the world or are involved in some kind of world-dominating conspiracy.

Believe what you will Baldwin, but since you have no first-hand knowledge of the Masons (other than what you gleam from sources seeing conspiracy), I take what you say with a grain of salt.

 
62Baldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sat, May 14, 2005, 23:10
People can judge the sources I quoted for themselves.

 
63nerveclinic
      ID: 39450150
      Sun, May 15, 2005, 02:36
Katie The Catholic church is the one that declares Mason's an unholy lot, so it is not surprising the source you quote.


How easily you are deceived.

Take a look at many photos of the Pope standing on the balconey looking out at the masses giving a speech. You will see clearly in his view a large "oblesk" smack in the middle of the square.

The oblesk that looks much like the Washington Mounument.

The Oblesk which represents the peni$ of Osiris.

The Oblesk which is among the most important symbols of free masonery.

The Catholic church is anti free masonery?

Then why does it's most important symbol lie in the middle of the vatican?

Oh sure if you research it there will be a "logical" explanation given about why it's there.

But really, if they are so "anti free masons" well then why is a masonic symbol in the middle of the vatican square.

Don't listen to what they say, observe instead what they do.

I was raised a Catholic by the way.

link

 
64nerveclinic
      ID: 39450150
      Sun, May 15, 2005, 02:51
Sarge to say the above questions about 9/11 have been completely debunked is a bit presumptous.

One of the questions we asked was if it wasn't a plane, what happened to the missing flights. Baldwins link at least shows what "might" of happened.

If it were a "conspiracy" and I am not saying it was, what would be worth the sacrific of several thousand American lives?

Let's look at what the conspirators might have gained.

1) The invasion of Iraq. Over 300 billion dollars spent there so far and much of it to major defense contractors linked to the administration.

2) Patriot act. Restricts freedoms and rights that allow a government to keep closer track of it's citizens. (Something I was told would happen 15 years ago by a man who was killed on his own property 1 month after 9-11)

3) Invasion of Afghanistan, the largest producer of heroin in the world (Heroin has long been a source of "black operations money" for the CIA according to many ex CIA officials)

4) Homeland Security Agency is formed. A Orwinesk government monolith that creates the ability to launch us into a 1984 like future.

Those are 4 pretty big bonuses that certainly seem worth a few thousand lives to me. In fact to really solidify all this they will probably need an even bigger event like a dirty bomb in a major city, or a missle launch from a North korea. Then we will really see what big brother can do.

Of course I'm not suggeting any of this is true.

It's only the type of thing that happens in Novels.

Real men would never stoop to this level right?





 
65nerveclinic
      ID: 39450150
      Sun, May 15, 2005, 02:54

It's kind of pathetic that someone starts a very serious thread and then Tree has to make a juvenal statement and others attack him not comprehending it was just a stupid smart ass comment.

Hijack the thread why don't you all?

If you're so pissed about it start a separate thread.

 
66TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, May 15, 2005, 04:20
He deleted post 9 and even then, I got right back on topic.
 
67Tree
      ID: 104321512
      Sun, May 15, 2005, 14:00
He deleted post 9 and even then, I got right back on topic.

who deleted post 9?
 
68nerveclinic
      ID: 39450150
      Sun, May 15, 2005, 15:03
It's interesting that just a few years ago on this forum this type thread wouldn't have been taken at all seriously.

I realize most here don't think the premise that members of the government actually were behind 9/11.

Take a look at the tone of the responses though in this thread and the other.

Generally those who respond they don't buy it are giving thoughtful, articulated answers as to why the theory isn't true. Two years ago there would have been mocking, cat calls and general derision for simply bringing this topic up. Words like Kook, and crack pot would have been used.

Interesting to see how far everyone has come.

One of Drudge's biggest topics on his radio show the last few months has been.

1) The implant chip, and other tracking devices, lately in the context of people who have suggested sex offenders have to wear a GPS tracking device.

2) Big brother spying on citizens through use of public cameras.

Drudge has really been harping on this and he has laid out a big brother 1984 scenario and he's done it often.

Welcome to the party Matt, your about 15 years behind but we'll take you whenever you see the light.

 
69Tree
      ID: 29447165
      Mon, May 16, 2005, 06:55
while not necessarily a conspiracy, i'm trying to see the "coincidence" of Salvador Allende's death on 9/11/73 has ever been mentioned.

the U.S. tried to prevent his inauguration after he was elected leader of chili, and his death resulted in the U.S. installing Pinnochet as a dictator.

interesting to me that the U.S. trying to directly control the fate of another nation by changing their leadership revolves around a different 9/11.
 
70Baldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Mon, May 16, 2005, 11:04
Actually an interesting tidbit I had never heard before, Tree. Keep it up.
 
71Pancho Villa
      Sustainer
      ID: 533817
      Thu, Jun 02, 2005, 10:35
Can the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff Be Trusted?

Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, said on Wednesday the Pentagon believed Zarqawi had been wounded, but did not know how severely.

In other words, except to keep Zarqawi's name in the news on a daily basis, you have said nothing.

This is the same General Myers, who either lied, or has the world's worst memory, when it comes to the morning of

9/11.

Air Force General Richard Myers, Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, sees reports of the first WTC crash on television. Myers is acting Chairman of the US military during the 9/11 crisis because Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Army General Henry Shelton is flying in a plane across the Atlantic. [ABC News, 9/11/02] Myers sees the television in an outer office of Senator Max Cleland (D), but he says, “They thought it was a small plane or something like that,” so he goes ahead and meets with Cleland. He says, “Nobody informed us” about the second WTC crash, and he remains oblivious to the emergency until the meeting with Cleland ends, and as the Pentagon explosion takes place at 9:37 a.m. Then Myers speaks to General Ralph Eberhart. [Armed Forces Press Service, 10/23/01] Yet, in testimony on September 13, 2001, he states, “after the second tower was hit, I spoke to the commander of NORAD, General Eberhart. And at that point, I think the decision was at that point to start launching aircraft.” [General Myers' confirmation hearing, 9/13/01] NORAD claims the first fighters are scrambled even before the first WTC hit. [NORAD, 9/18/01] In his 2004 testimony before the 9/11 Commission, Myers' account changes again. He says that he gets a call from Eberhart, and then “shortly thereafter that the Pentagon was hit as we were on our way back to the Pentagon.” [9/11 Commission Report, 6/17/04 (B)] Myers' claim that he is out of the loop contradicts not only his previous account but also counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke's account of what Myers does that day. According to Clarke's recollection, Myers takes part in a video conference from about 9:10 a.m. until after 10:00 a.m. If Myers is not involved in this conference, then his whereabouts and actions remain unknown until he arrives at the NMCC around 10:30 a.m.

Around this time[9:10AM], counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke reaches the Secure Video Conferencing Center next to the Situation Room in the West Wing of the White House. From there, he directs the response to the 9/11 attacks and stays in contact with other top officials through video links. On video are Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, CIA Director Tenet, FBI Director Mueller, FAA Administrator Jane Garvey, Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson (filling in for the traveling Attorney General Ashcroft), Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage (filling in for the traveling Secretary of State Powell), and Vice-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers (filling in for the traveling Chairman Henry Shelton).

The 9/11 Commission acknowledges the existence of this conference, but only gives it one sentence in a staff report about the day of 9/11: “The White House Situation Room initiated a video teleconference, chaired by Richard Clarke. While important, it had no immediate effect on the emergency defense efforts.”


Maybe you can understand why any statement Myers makes about Zarqawi is meaningless to me. He can't seem to remember if he was part of an emergency video conference conducted by Clarke at 9:10 AM, or whether he was oblivious to the entire attack scenario until after the Pentagon was hit at 9:37, almost a half hour later.

This is the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff unaccountable for changing his story [lying]several times during the attacks of 9/11.

Nice job, 9/11 commission. Way to get to the bottom of things.
 
72Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Fri, Jun 10, 2005, 11:06
Pre-9/11 FBI Missed Chances to Catch Gorelick
by Scott Ott

(2005-06-10) -- In the years leading up to the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the FBI fumbled several opportunities to capture Clinton-era Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick, according to a new study by the Justice Department's Inspector General.

The report also details how the FBI missed five chances to uncover vital information about two of the 9/11 hijackers.

Ms. Gorelick is best known for creating 'The Wall', a procedural barrier between criminal investigations and intelligence gathering which hindered the FBI's ability to learn more about Al Qaeda from prosecutors working the 1993 WTC bombing case, and blocked a search warrant to examine the computer of Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called '20th hijacker'.

"In hindsight, we identified several blown chances to take Gorelick into custody," said an unnamed Justice Department spokesman. "Of course, 'The Wall' also prevented the FBI from sharing with prosecutors what it knew about Gorelick and the risk that 'The Wall' posed to our national security."

A spokesman for Ms. Gorelick, who later served on the official panel investigating why the intelligence community failed to stop the 9/11 hijackers, said, "The FBI should have apprehended me. It is unthinkable that I'm still walking the streets and giving my opinion to journalists on matters related to the 9/11 attacks." - Scrappleface

 
73Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sat, Jun 11, 2005, 02:15
Wow
 
74Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sun, Jun 12, 2005, 09:10
Moslem propagandists keep repeating this meme about all the Jews having been given advance warning and not having been in the WTC on 9/11. It seems to me this should be so easy to definatively disprove and the meme is doing damage. Can anyone find such a list of Jewish casualties?

This is the best I've found, and it claims no such list was compiled tho it does mention 18 claims.
 
75Cosmo's Cod Piece
      ID: 11314719
      Sun, Jun 12, 2005, 10:50
I've always believed the Mossad either had something to do with 9/11 or had foreknowledge of a severe attack in the same light that Churchill knew about Pearl Harbor yet allowed it happen because he knew our involvement would turn the tide in the war.

9/11 - ARE AMERICANS THE VICTIMS OF A HOAX?
 
76Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sun, Jun 12, 2005, 11:05
I'm always leery of this 'blame it all on Mossad' stuff. Too anti-Semitic on it's face. I'll assign a probability factor on most anything...a low one here, keep an open mind and all but watch out you don't get sucked in by anti-Semites or worse yet work for them.
 
77Boldwin
      ID: 543312819
      Sun, Jun 12, 2005, 11:11
Take a good look at the map of Eurasia and plot out where the United States has military deployments. They march in a straight line through the middle of Eurasia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenia, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan.

This is fun tho.

You would have to be one brave superpower to think you could build a secure oil pipeline thru that series of snakepits. But it is one of those things that 'makes you go hmmm'.
 
78Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Sun, Nov 13, 2005, 15:33
BYU Physics Professor disputes official WTC collapse theory

Wow! BYU, the most conservative university in the country. That takes some huge cajones, or just a healthy dose of conscience.
Imagine, calling for an independent scientific investigation of this crime. Now why didn't the Bush administration think of that?
 
79Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Sun, Nov 13, 2005, 15:40
Well, the good professor, who admits not having the research to back his theory, seems to make a critical error in confusing "effect" with "intent." Asking why the terrorists would want the buildings to collapse straight down belies the professor's feigned objectivity.
 
80Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Sun, Nov 13, 2005, 19:45
The government's response to the request for photographic evidence will be interesting.
 
81The Treasonists
      ID: 58638223
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 00:47
I wouldn't hold your breath on getting photographic evidence or diddly out of the government. Even though are tax dollars payed for them. We're still waiting on the ones from Oklahoma City.

"WTC 7, which was not hit by hijacked planes, collapsed in 6.6 seconds, just .6 of a second longer than it would take an object dropped from the roof to hit the ground. "Where is the delay that must be expected due to conservation of momentum, one of the foundational laws of physics?" he asks. "That is, as upper-falling floors strike lower floors — and intact steel support columns — the fall must be significantly impeded by the impacted mass. . . . How do the upper floors fall so quickly, then, and still conserve momentum in the collapsing buildings?" The paradox, he says, "is easily resolved by the explosive demolition hypothesis, whereby explosives quickly removed lower-floor material, including steel support columns, and allow near free-fall-speed collapses." These observations were not analyzed by FEMA, NIST nor the 9/11 Commission, he says."

Does anyone have an explanation for WTC 7 collapsing in 6.6 seconds. Look at the video, it is clear to me that it is a controlled demolition.
 
82Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 01:44
Most of this has gone over in previous threads. It's worth noting that the questions surrounding WTC7 don't apply to WTC1 & WTC2 but they seemed to be all lumped together by the conspiracy theorists. I haven't located it, but I've heard that the owners of the WTC7 ordered it blowned up after it was clear fire had destroyed it and it was strucutally unsound.
 
83Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 06:27
that's not the way i remember it pd.

in related news the blast crater at okc was no where near large enuff to account for an explosion that would have destroyed that building. many explosion experts have noted this.

in future posts i hope to compare the government response in releasing photographic evidence in both instances.
 
84Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 08:38
feigned objectivity

You mean like this from the Popular Mechanics article?

Others are the byproducts of cynical imaginations that aim to inject suspicion and animosity into public debate. Only by confronting such poisonous claims with irrefutable facts can we understand what really happened on a day that is forever seared into world history.--

link

Ooops, my bad. There's no claim of objectivity in there at all, feigned or otherwise. How sad that the government's conspiracy theory has to be supported by a 2nd rate magazine, edited by the Director of Homeland Security's cousin, instead of the necessary non-political investigation called for by Jones.
 
85Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 09:45
We have, of course, gone over that ground, PV. No need to re-hash it since that particular article doesn't offer anything new since the last time we went over it.

BTW, don't anyone pin your hopes on the grail of "photographic evidence" which is an oxymoron now.
 
86The Treasonists
      ID: 57225913
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 12:24
So we're all in agreement that WTC 7 was a controlled demolition and that the government explanation is wrong?
 
87Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 12:28
Nope. Just repeating something that came up in one of the previous threads.

BTW, I know of no single "government explanation" for any of this. I do realize that it's easier to pit oneself against some monolithic government but nearly every agency (and there are scores) have reports on the WTC disaster, plus many more private reports. Consensus comes from the many different reports.
 
88Judy
      ID: 371044221
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 13:13
Nothing sane would have done it. We look forward to birth. The persons who did those things, well they were decieved into believing, against all odds. None of us believes we could beat the odds, we just think it couldn't happen to us. Time against time we fight to beat the odds. Well you lose. When you start to believe in something, you will find that there was nothing there to start with...except false hope. It's fun going down winding roads. Getting dizzy looking for an excuse to misbehave...to let yourself believe against yourself because it,s now policticly correct to go against your principles. To ignore what you belive in. And maybe how much easier it is to let others tell YOU HOW TO THINK AND FEEL. Absolves you of any responsibility for yourself. Great isn't it?
 
89Judy
      ID: 371044221
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 13:46
9-11-o1 happened because someone was hellbent on destroying the stucture that peace could be a reality. That to have a world in a cooperivestate could never be a possibility. Well you know what it could be. Disfuncftion preys on relying on facts that there is no public knowlege, so get the news out, simply base your stucture on the principles. Facts. Die with those that die for you and live with those that belive that living in dying for what you believe in is worth it. Love the truth... be willing to die for it.
 
90The Treasonists
      ID: 57225913
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 13:55
Judy: So is that a yes or a no on the WTC 7 controlled demolition, or no opinion at all?
 
91Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 14:09
nearly every agency (and there are scores) have reports on the WTC disaster, plus many more private reports.

The only report on the collapse of WTC7 that I'm aware of, is the one done by volunteer FEMA workers that concluded more investigation was needed in order to reach a consensus. FEMA is not an investigatory organization.
If you know of a more detailed report on WTC7, private or public, i would be most anxious to see a link.
 
92Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 14:16
Specifically and only on WTC7 I don't know, PV. WTC7 is mentioned (and spoken about at length at times) in nearly all of the WTC papers.
 
93The Treasonists
      ID: 57225913
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 14:30
OK, let's take a step back. Does anyone wish to dispute that WTC 7 collapsed in 6.6 seconds? (i.e. fake video, stop watch was off, etc. ) Can we have agreement on that first?
 
94biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 15:11
I used to work in WTC 7. What I crappy building. I don't doubt it fell faster than gravity would dictate. It had a bit of a self-loathing problem, and was eager for death. Did the gov't do a Kavorkian and dabble in assisted suicide? It was the only kind, ethicial thing to do.

What of it? What would it show?
 
95Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 15:29
We of the Political Gurupie board appoint biliruben as our Special Master (a legal term) to investigate the fall of WTC7 and give an unbiased judgement.

I remember that day, Dan Rather solemnly reporting that this other building had fallen. I thought to myself, "That's odd. It's not contiguous to the other buildings, as I remember." I passed it off. Of course, If Rather reports that a building has fallen down, my natural response is that the building hasn't fallen down, but has been raised up; or maybe a different building in New Jersey has fallen down, or more likely, that the truth is that a new building has been constructed where Rather says that a building has fallen down.

Of course, bili didn't praise Sutton's book either. To succeed in the world of research, you probably have to be tied like this (2nd and 3rd fingers together) with the CFR and Skull and Bones to move up.

But maybe bili can give us hints.

Toral
 
96biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 15:41
Hardy-har-har. I didn't praise sutton's book because I didn't read it. I want to send it to Boldwin; someone who will truly treat it with the respect I'm sure it deserves.

I would be the least biased to investigate WTC-7. I hated the building. It was infested with Feds, and it made my daily routine a chore - had to present my ID with random searches just to get near the elevators every single day after the first bombing.

It did appear to be linked sorta. There was a bridge that attached itself to WTC2 and tunnels and such underneath, but I am no structural engineer. All of downtown is hollow underneath, so I would guess a 110 story building collapsing a 100 feet away, combined with an underground diesel fire would have some effect on the nearby building.
 
97biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 15:42
Oh yeah, I do have ties to skull and bones; the Piratey kind that is. YAR!
 
98ukula
      ID: 5510131414
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 15:45
Treasonists - I agree it was a controlled demolition. The landlord even admitted it!! Given that, why was WTC7 setup with explosives? According to experts in the field it takes about two weeks to setup a building for demolition. Does that make any sense?

Oh, by the way, isn't it a coincidence that Bush's cousin was the head of security/maintenance at WTC on September 11, 2001?
 
99Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 15:58
Oh, by the way, isn't it a coincidence that Bush's cousin was the head of security/maintenance at WTC on September 11, 2001?

No. Bush is heavy into cronyism.
 
100The Treasonists
      ID: 57225913
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 17:42
Look at the video. There is no way that WTC 7 fell straight down as a result of a random fire.
I'm not saying who did or didn't do it or what their reason was. All I'm saying is that building fell perfectly straight down as a result of a controlled demolition. The official government reason remains a fire. Look at a known controlled demolition like the Kingdome or the one in Vegas. Straight down. Look at the video.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html
 
101Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 18:26
Hardy-har-har. I didn't praise sutton's book because I didn't read it. I want to send it to Boldwin; someone who will truly treat it with the respect I'm sure it deserves.

You were supposed to send it to Seattle Zen, who would give it the reaming it truly deserves.

By my reckoning, you owe me $40 US cash. Please contact me re payment.

Toral


 
102biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 18:42
href="http://wtc.nist.gov/oct05NCSTAR1-3index.htm" target="_blank">More than you want to know about structural metal hooey.

You were supposed to send it to Seattle Zen, who would give it the reaming it truly deserves.

I was? Well that should be easy.

By my reckoning, you owe me $40 US cash. Please contact me re payment.

If you say so. How about we go double or nothing on the gold medal counts for our respective countries at the next Olympics. I'll even be generous and let you pick the season.
 
103biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 18:48
link retry

The interesting thing I notice perusing this stuff quickly, is that, though they did collect much metal from 1 and 2, they didn't recover any from WTC 7, for some reason.
 
104The Treasonists
      ID: 58638223
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 20:31
26,000 tons of steel in WTC 7, and after 4 years they analyze zero. One of the largest buildings in America collapses and we get this. The largest building to ever collapse due to a fire and they analyze zero. 189 pages and there is no explanantion as to why they analyze zero. And my tax dollars were spent on this.
 
105Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 20:38
Or not.

:)
 
106Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 20:55
Good Lord. The Christians destroyed WTC 7.

We were hoping it wouldn't be found out, but, what can you say? Destroying WTC 7 helped us extend our hegemony over society.

Course, we aren't too bright, as y'all know. Our attempts to cover our tracks were pretty weak, and we got caught up in contradictions many times by home decorators in the southwest U.S. and professional con men in California.

 
107Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 21:29
WTC7 had Secret Service offices, and no doubt some secret offices (CIA, NSA, etc). After the 1993 bombing, I heard all the secret agencies moved out of the towers.

So would it be any surprise to me that WTC7, once it was clear that the building was a loss, was demolished? And that no real direct spotlight has been shown on it? Nope. And nope.

Do I care? Nope, again.
 
108The Treasonists
      ID: 58638223
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 22:50
At least one person died in the collapse. So now we are talking murder, arson, and destruction of government property. If the government is lieing about this, what else could they be lieing about?

There is little evidence the building was a loss. There were buildings in between and next to WTC 7 that suffered little damage. And it is doubtful that a demolition could be slapped together so quickly and do such an excellent job. Imploding a building like that takes a certain expertise and only a few companies can even do it in a crowded downtown section like that. It must have been planned in advance.

Wait, there's a knock at the door. What are these guys in FBI shirts doing here? I'm gonna have to go.
 
109Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Mon, Nov 14, 2005, 22:52
I'm saying that it would not surprise me that the building was already rigged. And again, I don't really care.
 
110Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 03:20
Toral

What profession was the little boy who pointed out that the emporer was naked and do I care?
 
111ukula
      ID: 191017158
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 09:20
PermDude - You don't care that the factions within our own government may have murdered thousands of American citizens to further their political agendas? What exactly do you care about, American Idol?
 
112Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 10:05
You're an idiot, uke. BTW, that's something else I really don't care about.

Try reading my posts more slowly. Maybe that'll help.
 
113Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 10:10
110 You make a good point. I get annoyed when I see good people, smart people, wasting their time on obvious stupidity. They could be participating in the political debate, working for social change. In many cases, I wouldn't agree with them, but it's annoying to have them opt out and live in a fantasy world. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Or, as Dan Quayle said speaking before the United Negro College Fund, "What a terrible thing to have lost one's mind. Or not to have a mind at all. How true that is."

Toral
 
114ukula
      ID: 191017158
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 11:10
Pd - Your main response is usually something like "That was already talked about in other threads" as if everyone in that previous thread all agreed in the end - a lovely spirited debate where everyone came to the same conclusion in the end. Welcome to Utopia.
 
115Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 11:16
A few issues I have with some of these observations, trying to keep an open mind.

Post 81:
WTC 7... collapsed in 6.6 seconds

What was it that happened exactly 6.6 seconds before the completion of the collapse that you are referring to as a starting point? Do you mean to say that from te video you've seen, it took the building 6.6 seconds to collapse from the first outward sign of the building starting to give? Why is it difficult to imagine that the interior integrity of the structure had been weakening for some period of time until the outer shell, not designed to support anything like that weight, was the only thing left holding the building up? When the facade finally gives, gravity makes short work of it.

"Where is the delay that must be expected due to conservation of momentum, one of the foundational laws of physics?" he asks. "That is, as upper-falling floors strike lower floors — and intact steel support columns — the fall must be significantly impeded by the impacted mass

Well I've already challenged the idea that the steel support columns were "intact" in that I believe they may have been compromised by whatever conditions caused the building to fall.

Further, in the video linked in post 100, there are other buildings in the way so I can't be sure at all that the point of initial structural collapse occurred someplace other than at the bottom of the building. Maybe it happened near the middle, but we just see the top half of the thing go down at once. I'd venture an educated guess based on controlled building collapses and other structural collapses I've seen that the discussed delay effect of conservation of momentum (if apropriatly cited here at all) is negligible when the breaking point of a structure of that mass occurs in the lower 3rd or 4th of it's body. If someone here is an engineer with information on the type of structure that was WTC 7 and can speak about what would be necessary to happen for that collapse to occur in 6.6 seconds from the first outward sign of compromise, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Post 108:
There were buildings in between and next to WTC 7 that suffered little damage.

WTC 7 was a single structure, so there could not have been any buildings, damaged or undamaged "in between WTC 7". Assuming that Treasonist means to say that there were buildings between WTC 7 and WTC 1 that suffered litle damage, he is mistaken. WTC 6 sat right in between WTC 7 and WTC 1. WTC 6 had a cratere blown down through the middle of it from falling debris.

I'll not that the following image is linked from a site that raises these same issues regarding the collapse of WTC7:
WTC 6 is the (demolished) building with the hole in the middle of it at the bottom left corner of the plaza. WTC 7 once stood in the area immediately down and to the left of it.
So clearly, any structural damage to WTC 7 would have been within the contiguous field of destruction that damaged the rest of the area.

Here's a close-up of the damaged WTC 6 building.

How can you be so sure that WTC 7 wasn't heavily damaged? WTC 6 was demolished and it was right across the street.

Now, all that said, I do find very compelling the quote from Silverstein, which is also found at the page linked in post 100.
"I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."
And that quote certainly raises an eyebrow when taken in context with the FEMA claim that the building collapsed on its own. That Bush had replaced the most competant FEMA director in history with a crony (Michael Brown's predecessor) makes it even a little more suspicious, but none of this rules out the liklihood of FEMA incompetance, either, especially given what we've seen from them in the past few months. So while I agree that there are some suspicious issues, I'd need more to buy in to a conspiracy theory.

it is doubtful that a demolition could be slapped together so quickly and do such an excellent job. Imploding a building like that takes a certain expertise and only a few companies can even do it in a crowded downtown section like that. It must have been planned in advance.

How do you know so much about controlled building destructions? How do you know that a damaged building that is determined to be a risk to come down on its own can't be properly rigged up in 4 or 5 hours to be taken down in a controlled destruction?
 
116ukula
      ID: 191017158
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 11:41
It's about time we put all these crazy conspiracy theories to rest.

After all, our leader has told us that we shouldn't tolerate these "outrageous conspiracy theories" (see below).

"We must speak the truth about terror. Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th, malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists themselves, away from the guilty." GW Bush speaking before the UN General Assembly 11/10/2001

Here's the craziest conspiracy theory about 9/11 that I've read:

From the August 2003 Idaho Observer:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The looniest of all 9/11 conspiracy theories

“Let us not tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories,” President Bush stated amid increasingly loud accusations that his administration may have allowed the tragic events of 9/11 to occur as a pretext justifying U.S. expansion of armed conflict around the world to allegedly wage war on terrorism. Curiously, most of the “outrageous conspiracy theories” to which he refers incorporate some extremely sound science, logic and witness testimony where the official version is lacking in those critical areas. The following is a rather clever and immensely sarcastic approach to the government's explanation of 9/11 -- which follows a pattern established by the “magic bullet theory” to explain the assassination of JFK and a Ryder truck full of fertilizer and fuel oil to explain the damage at the Murrah federal building in OK City.

by Gerard Holmgren

Astute observers of history are aware that for every notable event there will usually be at least one ,often several wild conspiracy theories which spring up around it. “The CIA killed Hendrix”; “the Pope had John Lennon murdered”; “Hitler was half Werewolf”; “Space aliens replaced Nixon with a clone,” etc, etc. The bigger the event, the more ridiculous and more numerous are the fanciful rantings which circulate in relation to it.

So its hardly surprising that the events of Sept. 11, 2001, have spawned their fair share of these ludicrous fairy tales. And as always, there is -- sadly -- a small but gullible percentage of the population eager to lap up these tall tales, regardless of facts or rational analysis.

One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11 (and one that has attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs) is that it was carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they “hate our freedoms.”

Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the Internet and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell.

Normally I don't even bother debunking this kind of junk, but the effect that this paranoid myth is beginning to have requires a little rational analysis, in order to consign it to the same rubbish bin as all such silly conspiracy theories.

These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them and actually would have stopped them if it had been able. Blindly ignoring the stand down of the U.S. Air Force, the insider trading on airline stocks (linked to the CIA), the complicit behavior of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the attacks, the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about 19 Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer four planes simultaneously and fly them around U.S. airspace for nearly two hours, crashing them into important buildings, without the U.S. intelligence services having any idea that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do.

The daunting task of analysis

The huge difficulties with such a stupid story force them to invent even more preposterous stories to distract from its core silliness, and thus the tale has escalated into a mythic fantasy of truly gargantuan proportions.

It's difficult to apply rational analysis to such unmitigated stupidity, but that is the task which I take on in this article. However, it should be noted that one of the curious characteristics of conspiracy theorists is that they effortlessly change their so called evidence in response to each aspect which is debunked. As soon as one delusion is unmasked, they simply invent another to replace it and deny that the first ever existed. Eventually, when they have turned full circle through this endlessly changing fantasy fog , they then reinvent the original delusion and deny that you ever debunked it, thus beginning the circle once more. This technique is known as “the fruit loop” and saves the conspiracy theorist from ever having to see any of their ideas through to their (ill)logical conclusions.

The fruit loop

According to the practitioners of the fruit loop, 19 Arabs took over the four planes by subduing the passengers and crew through the use of guns, knives, box cutters and gas, and then used electronic guidance systems which they had smuggled on board to fly the planes to their targets.

The suspension of disbelief required for this outrageous concoction is only for the hard core conspiracy theorist. For a start, they conveniently skip over the awkward fact that there weren't any Arabs on the planes.

If there were, one must speculate that they somehow got on board without being filmed by any of the security cameras and without being registered on the passenger lists. But the curly question of how they are supposed to have got on board is all too mundane for the exciting world of the conspiracy theorist.

Who's on first?

With vague mumblings that they must have been using false ID (but never specifying which IDs they are alleged to have used, or how these were traced to their real identities), they quickly bypass this problem, to relate exciting and sinister tales about how some of the fictitious fiends were actually searched before boarding because they looked suspicious.

However, as inevitably happens with any web of lies, this simply paints them into an even more difficult corner. How are they supposed to have gotten on board with all that stuff if they were searched? And if they used gas in a confined space, they would have been affected themselves unless they also had masks in their luggage.

“Excuse me sir, why do you have a boxcutter, a gun, a container of gas, a gas mask and an electronic guidance unit in your luggage?”

“A present for your grandmother? Very well sir, on you get.”

“Very strange,” thinks the security officer. “That's the fourth Arabic man without an Arabic name who just got on board with a knife, gun or boxcutter and gas mask. And why does that security camera keep flicking off every time one these characters shows up? Must be one of those days I guess...”

Asking any of these basic questions to a conspiracy theorist is likely to cause a sudden leap to the claim that we know that they were on board because they left a credit card trail for the tickets they had purchased and cars they had rented. So, if they used credit cards that identified them, how does that reconcile with the claim that they used false IDs to get on to the plane?

But by this time, the fruit loop is in full swing, as the conspiracy theorist tries to stay one jump ahead of this annoying and awkward rational analysis. They will allege that the hijackers' passports were found at the crash scenes. “So there!” they exalt triumphantly, their fanatical faces lighting up with that deranged look of one who has just experienced a revelation of questionable sanity.

Hmm? So they got on board with false IDs but took their real passports with them? However, by this time the fruit loop has been completely circumnavigated, and the conspiracy theorist exclaims impatiently, “Who said anything about false IDs? We know what seats they were sitting in! Their presence is well documented!”

And so the whole loop starts again. “Well, why aren't they on the passenger lists?”

“You numbskull! They assumed the identities of other passengers!” And so on...

Finally, out of sheer fascination with this circular method of creative delusion, the rational sceptic will allow them to get away with this loop, in order to move on to the next question, and see what further delights await us in the unraveling of this marvelously stupid story.

“Uh, how come their passports survived fiery crashes that completely incinerated the planes and all the passengers?”

The answer of course is that its just one of those strange coincidences, those little quirks of fate that do happen from time to time. You know, like the same person winning the lottery four weeks in a row. The odds are astronomical, but these things do happen...

This is another favourite deductive method of the conspiracy theorist. The “improbability drive,” in which they decide upon a conclusion without any evidence whatsoever to support it, and then continually speculate a series of wildly improbable events and unbelievable coincidences to support it, shrugging off the implausibility of each event with the vague assertion that sometimes the impossible happens (just about all the time in their world).

There is a principle called “Occam's razor” which suggests that in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct. Conspiracy theorists hate Occam's razor.

Hijacking 101

Having for the sake of amusement, allowed them to get away with the silly story of the 19 invisible Arabs, we move on to the question of how they are supposed to have taken over the planes.

Hijacking a plane is not an easy thing to do. Hijacking it without the pilot being able to alert ground control is nearly impossible. The pilot has only to punch in a four digit code to alert ground control to a hijacking. Unconcerned with the awkward question of plausibility, the conspiracy buffs maintain that on that Sept 11, the invisible hijackers took over the plane by the rather crude method of threatening people with boxcutters and knives, and spraying gas (after they had attached their masks, obviously), but somehow took control of the plane without the crew first getting a chance to punch in the hijacking code. Not just on one plane, but on all four. At this point in the tale, the conspiracy theorist is again forced to call upon the services of the improbability drive.

So now that our incredibly lucky hijackers have taken control of the planes, all four pilots fly them with breathtaking skill and certainty to their fiery end -- all four unflinching in their steely resolve for a swift meeting with Allah.

Apart from their psychotic hatred of “our freedoms,” it was their fanatical devotion to Islam which enabled them to summon up the iron will to do this. Which is strange, because according to another piece of hearsay peddled by the conspiracy buffs, these guys actually went out drinking and womanizing the night before their great martyrdom, even leaving their Korans in the bar -- really impeccable Islamic behavior -- and then got up at 5 a.m. the next morning to pull off the greatest covert operation in history.

This also requires us to believe that they were even clear headed enough to learn how to fly the huge planes by reading flight manuals in Arabic in the car on the way to the airport. We know this because they supposedly left the flight manuals there for us to find.

It gets better. Their practical training had allegedly been limited to Cessnas and flight simulators, but this was no barrier to the unflinching certainty with which they took over the planes and skillfully guided them to their doom.

If they are supposed to have done their flight training with these tools, which would be available just about anywhere in the world, its not clear why they would have decided to risk blowing their cover to U.S. intelligence services by doing the training in Florida, rather than somewhere in the Middle East, but such reasoning is foreign to the foggy world of the conspiracy theorist, too trapped in the constant rotation of the mental fruit loop to make their unsubstantiated fabrications seem even semi-believable.

A Ryder truck with wings?

Having triumphantly established a circular delusion in support of the mythical Arabs, the conspiracy theorist now confronts the difficult question of why there's nothing left of the planes. Anybody who has seen the endlessly replayed footage of the second plane going into the WTC will realize that the plane was packed with explosives. Planes do not and cannot blow up into nothing in that manner when they crash.

Did the mythical Arabs also haul a huge heap of explosives on board, and manage to deploy them in such a manner that they went off in the exact instant of the crash, completely vapourizing the plane?

This is a little difficult even for the conspiracy theorist, who at this point decides that its easier to invent new laws of physics in order to keep the delusion rolling along.

There weren't any explosives. It wasn't an inside job. The plane blew up into nothing from its exploding fuel load! Remarkable!

Sluggishly combustible jet fuel, which is basically kerosene and which burns at a maximum temperature of around 800 C, has suddenly taken on the qualities of a ferociously explosive demolition agent, vapourizing 65 tons of aircraft into a puff of smoke. Never mind that a plane of that size contains around 15 tons of steel and titanium, of which even the melting points are about double that of the maximum combustion temperature of kerosene -- let alone the boiling point -- which is what would be required to vapourize a plane. And then there's about 50 tons of aluminium to be accounted for.

In excess of 15 pounds of metal was vapourized for each gallon of kerosene.

For the conspiracy theorist, such inconvenient facts are vaguely dismissed as “mumbo jumbo.”

This convenient little phrase is their answer to just about anything factual or logical. Like a conjurer pulling a rabbit out of a hat, they suddenly become fanatically insistent about the devastating explosive qualities of kerosene, something hitherto completely unknown to science, but just discovered by them, at that very moment. Blissfully ignoring the fact that never before or since in aviation history has a plane vapourized into nothing from an exploding fuel load, the conspiracy theorist relies upon Hollywood images, where the effects are always larger than life, and certainly larger than the intellects of these cretins.

“Its a well known fact that planes blow up into nothing on impact,” they state with pompous certainty. “Watch any Bruce Willis movie.”

“Care to provide any documented examples? If it's a well known fact, then presumably this well known fact springs from some kind of documentation -- other than Bruce Willis movies?”

At this point the mad but cunning eyes of the conspiracy theorist will narrow as they sense the corner that they have backed themselves into, and plan their escape by means of another stunning backflip.

“Ah, but planes have never crashed into buildings before, so there's no way of telling,” they counter with a sly grin.

Well, actually planes have crashed into buildings before (and since). None of them vapourized into almost nothing.

“But not big planes, with that much fuel,” they shriek in hysterical denial.

Or that much metal to vapourize.

“Yes but not hijacked planes!”

“Are you suggesting that whether the crash is deliberate or accidental affects the combustion qualities of the fuel?”

“Now you're just being silly.”

Although collisions with buildings are rare, planes frequently crash into mountains, streets, other aircraft, nosedive into the ground, or have bombs planted aboard them, and don't vapourize into nothing. What's so special about a tower that's mostly glass? But by now, the conspiracy theorist has once again sailed happily around the fruit loop. “Its a well documented fact that planes explode into nothing on impact.”

Effortlessly weaving back and forth between the position that its a “well known fact” and that “its never happened before, so we have nothing to compare it to,” the conspiracy theorist has now convinced themselves (if not too many other people) that the WTC plane was not loaded with explosives, and that the instant vapourization of the plane in a massive fireball was the same as any other plane crash you might care to mention. Round and round the fruit loop...

The “new math”

But the hurdles which confront the conspiracy theorist are many, and they are now forced to implement even more creative uses for the newly discovered shockingly destructive qualities of kerosene. They have to explain how the Arabs also engineered the elegant vertical collapse of both the WTC towers, and for this awkward fact the easiest counter is to simply deny that it was a controlled demolition, and claim that the buildings collapsed from fire caused by the burning kerosene.

For this, its necessary to sweep aside the second law of thermodynamics and propose kerosene, which is not only impossibly destructive, but also recycles itself for a second burning in violation of the law of degradation of energy.

You see, it not only consumed itself in a sudden catastrophic fireball, vapourizing a 65-ton plane into nothing, but then came back for a second go, burning at 2000 degrees C for another hour at the impact point, melting the skyscraper's steel like butter. And, while it was doing all this, it also poured down the elevator shafts, starting fires all through the building.

When I was at school there was a little thing called the entropy law which suggests that a given portion of fuel can only burn once, something which is readily observable in the real world, even for those who didn't make it to junior high school science. But this is no problem for the conspiracy theorist. Gleefully, they claim that a few thousand gallons of kerosene is enough to:

1. completely vapourize a 65 ton aircraft;

2. have enough left over to burn ferociously enough for over an hour at the impact point to melt steel ( melting point about double the maximum combustion temperature of the fuel );

3. still have enough left over to pour down the elevator shafts and start similarly destructive fires all throughout the building.

This kerosene really is remarkable stuff! How chilling to realize that those kerosene heaters we had in the house when I was a kid were deadly bombs, just waiting to go off. One false move and the entire street might have been vapourized. And never again will I take kerosene lamps out camping. One moment you're there innocently holding the lamp, the next moment -- kapow! Vapourized into nothing along with the rest of the camp site, and still leaving enough of the deadly stuff to start a massive forest fire.

These whackos are actually claiming that the raging inferno allegedly created by the miraculously recycling, and impossibly hot burning kerosene melted or at least softened the steel supports of the skyscraper. Oblivious to the fact that the smoke coming from the WTC was black, which indicates an oxygen starved fire and, therefore, not particularly hot, they trumpet an alleged temperature in the building of 2000 C , without a shred of evidence to support this curious suspension of the laws of physics.

Not content with this ludicrous garbage, they then contend that as the steel frames softened, they came straight down instead of buckling and twisting and falling sideways.

Laws be damned

Since they've already re-engineered the combustion qualities of jet fuel, violated the second law of thermodynamics, and redefined the structural properties of steel, why let a little thing like the laws of gravity get in the way?

The tower fell in a time almost identical to that of a free-falling object, dropped from that height, meaning that it's physically impossible for it to have collapsed by the method of the top floors smashing through the lower floors.

But, according to the conspiracy theorists, the laws of gravity were temporarily suspended on the morning of Sept 11. It appears that the evil psychic power of those dreadful Arabs knew no bounds. Even after they were dead, they were able, by the power of their evil spirits, to force down the tower at a speed physically impossible under the laws of gravity, had it been meeting any resistance from fireproofed steel structures originally designed to resist many tons of hurricane force wind -- as well as the impact of a Boeing passenger jet straying off course.

Clearly, these conspiracy nuts never did their science homework at school, but did become extremely adept at inventing tall tales for why they couldn't complete their assignments.

“Muslim terrorists stole my notes, sir”

“No miss, the kerosene heater blew up and vapourized everything in the street, except for my passport.”

“You see sir, the school bus was hijacked by Arabs who destroyed my homework because they hate our freedoms.”

Or perhaps they misunderstood the term “creative science” and mistakenly thought that coming up with such rubbish was in fact, their science homework.

The ferocious heat generated by this ghastly kerosene was, according to the conspiracy theorists, the reason why so many of the WTC victims can't be identified. DNA is destroyed by heat. (Although 2000 C isn't really required, 100 degrees C will generally do the job).

This is quite remarkable, because according to the conspiracy theorist, the nature of DNA suddenly changes if you go to a different city.

Not all DNA created equal

That's right! If you are killed by an Arab terrorist in NY, your DNA will be destroyed by such temperatures. But if you are killed by an Arab terrorist in Washington DC, your DNA will be so robust that it can survive temperatures which completely vapourize a 65-ton aircraft.

You see, these loonies have somehow concocted the idea that the missile which hit the pentagon was not a missile at all, but one of the hijacked planes. And to prove this unlikely premise, they point to a propaganda statement from the Bush regime, which rather stupidly claims that all but one of the people aboard the plane were identified from the site by DNA testing, even though nothing remains of the plane.

“The plane was vapourized by the fuel tank explosion,” maintain these space loonies, but only one of the people inside it were not identified by DNA testing.

So there we have it. The qualities of DNA are different, depending upon which city you're in, or perhaps depending upon which fairy story you're trying to sell at any particular time.

Missiles have wings, too

This concoction about one of the hijacked planes hitting the Pentagon really is a howler. For those not familiar with the layout of the Pentagon, it consists of five rings of building, each with a space in between. Each ring of building is about 30 to 35 feet deep, with a similar amount of open space between it and the next ring.

The object which penetrated the Pentagon went in at about a 45 degree angle, punching a neat, circular hole about 12 feet in diameter through three rings (six walls).

A little later a section of wall about 65 feet wide collapsed in the outer ring. Since the plane, which the conspiracy theorists claim to be responsible for the impact, had a wing span of 125 feet and a length of 155 feet and there was no wreckage of the plane, either inside or outside the building, and the lawns outside were still smooth and green enough to play golf on, this crazy delusion is clearly a physical impossibility.

But hey, we've already disregarded the combustion qualities of jet fuel, the normal properties of common building materials, the properties of DNA, the laws of gravity and the second law of thermodynamics, so what the hell -- why not throw in a little spatial impossibility as well?

I would have thought that the observation that a solid object cannot pass through another solid object without leaving a hole at least as big as itself is reasonably sound science. But to the conspiracy theorist, this is “mumbo jumbo.” It conflicts with the delusion that they're hooked on, so it “must be wrong” although trying to get them to explain exactly how it could be wrong is a futile endeavour.

Conspiracy theorists fly into a curious panic whenever the Pentagon missile is mentioned. They nervously maintain that the plane was vapourized by it's exploding fuel load and point to the WTC crash as evidence of this behavior (That is a wonderful fruit loop).

Like an insect which has just been sprayed, running back and forth in its last mad death throes, they first argue that the reason the hole is so small is that the plane never entered the wall, having blown up outside, and then suddenly backflip to explain the 250 feet deep missile hole by saying that the plane disappeared all the way into the building, and then blew up inside the building (even though the building shows no sign of such damage).

As for what happened to the wings, here's where they get really creative. The wings snapped off and folded into the fuselage which then carried them into the building, which then closed up behind the plane like a piece of meat.

When it suits them, they'll also claim that the plane slid in on its belly, (ignoring the undamaged lawn) while at the same time citing alleged witnesses to the plane diving steeply into the building from an “irrecoverable angle.”

How they reconcile these two scenarios as being compatible is truly a study in applied stupidity.

Epilogue

Once they get desperate enough, you can be sure that the UFO conspiracy stuff will make an appearance. The Arabs are in league with the Martians. Space aliens snatched the remains of the Pentagon plane and fixed most of the hole in the wall, just to confuse people. They gave the Arabs invisibility pills to help get them onto the planes. Little green men were seen talking to Bin Laden a few weeks prior to the attacks.

As the nation gears up to impeach the traitor Bush, and stop his perpetual oil war, it's not helpful to have these idiots distracting from the process by spreading silly conspiracy theories about mythical Arabs, stories which do nothing but play into the hands of the extremist Bush regime.

At a less serious time, we might tolerate such crackpots with amused detachment, but they need to understand that the treachery that was perpetrated on Sept. 11, and the subsequent war crimes committed in “retaliation” are far too serious for us to allow such frivolous self indulgence to go unchallenged.

Those who are truly addicted to conspiracy delusions should find a more appropriate outlet for their paranoia.

Its time to stop loony conspiracy theories about Sept 11.

Copyright Gerard Holmgren. Jan 2003 debunker@hotmail.com



 
117Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 12:23
I get annoyed when I see good people, smart people, wasting their time on obvious stupidity.

Obvious stupidity is such a relative term. yet, I have to believe that much of the 9/11 cover-up can be attributed to this attitude.
What media wants to be courageous enough to tackle an issue that will brand them as being obviously stupid? Certainly not one that depends on Kellogg's Corn Flakes or Goodyear Tires for their economic survival.

Amusing that to Toral "it's annoying to have them opt out and live in a fantasy world"

when it comes to the voluminous body of work that exposes the lack of plausible explanations concerning the government's conspiracy theory regarding the 9/11 attacks, but the teaching of "intelligent design," the very definition of a fantasy world, is somehow a relevant topic for healthy debate - even though the results of such a debate can never be resolved except in the minds of those participating.
 
118Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 16:08
I have always suspected Toral's position on this [what has been called after all the English Conspiracy] is agnostic but if it's true he's for it.
 
119The Treasonists
      ID: 57225913
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 16:36
re: 115. Those are some excellent questions Mr. Mattinglyinthehall. I'm glad you're keeping an open mind. I don't know how to do that italic thing, so I'll just ramble.

The 6.6 seconds refers to the time between when WTC7 is standing there and 6.6 seconds later it is a pile of rubble less than 2 stories high. Under the pancake theory of WTC 1 and 2, one floor fell down on the lower one and then those fell on the one below ,etc. It would make sense that this would take longer than a controlled demolition where the supports are blown out at the bottom and maybe other places. Some think that those buildings seemed to fall too fast for the pancake theory to be believed. Like that Texas A&M guy wrote a few months ago. As far as WTC 7 goes, the government explanation is that parts of WTC 1 and 2 fell on WTC 7 and damaged it and started fires. And I'm sure this did happen. Where it gets fishy though is that this damage and these fires would cause all 4 supports or however many there were to fail all at the exact same time causing WTC 7 to fall perfectly straight down. I have trouble with that one. One would think that the fire would be a little hotter in one place than another, or debris hit one part of the bulding but not another, etc. There is also a question of if this fire could even get hot enough to burn thru steel like butter. Remember WTC 7 was not hit by an airplane.

The top company in the field is Controlled Demolitions, Inc. From their website:

Time to prepare buildings for demolition:

Hudson Dept store.....24 days
Beirut Hilton.....6 weeks
Kingdome......4.5 months
500 West St Building, Pittsburgh...2 months

WTC 7 would be the tallest building ever taken down by a controlled demolition, except for maybe WTC 1 and 2.

I like watching those things, and wouldn't mind seeing one live, if I knew i wouldn't get asbestosis or something.

And this Silverstein comment. Nobody has bothered to ask him some obvious follow-up questions. Like maybe,

FEMA spent millions of dollars and determined it was a fire.

How did they get it wired so fast to do such an excellent job.

Who did it? what company? what govt. agency?

This Silverstein guy made billions on insurance money from 9/11. That's with a "B"
 
120Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 21:16
Rejected my theory out of hand? Or just skipped over it since asking questions just feels better?

:)
 
121ukula
      ID: 2694116
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 22:33
pd - You're an idiot, but then again that was covered in a previous thread.
 
122Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 23:10
But at least I understand in what ways I'm an idiot. You, on the other hand, don't even realize what a joke you are when you post here. Seriously--have you even a clue on the matter, or are you still confusing "open mindedness" with "question everything?"
 
123Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 01:31
At least he doesn't confuse the 'official government/msm version of events' with received gospel.
 
124Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 01:34
Given this Administration's intent to inject and invoke Christian religion into it's actions I would think that, of anyone on this board, you'd be the first to receive that Communion, B.
 
125Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 10:02
Treasonists

How do you know that Silverstein received billions?

And if he did, wouldn't that seem to shift the likly reason for a WTC 7 controlled destruction coverup to one of insurance fraud?
 
126ukula
      ID: 91017169
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 10:23
pd - What's wrong with questioning things? It's better than being a sheep. So, apparently anyone with a differing viewpoint than yourself is a joke? That's a healthy attitude!

P.S. At least you admit that you're an idiot:

"But at least I understand in what ways I'm an idiot." (Post 122)
 
127Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 12:06
uke, the problem is with continuing to question things as an end to itself. In other words, self-congratulatory questioning isn't some kind of means to truth, but as a status to be achieved and maintained as a reactive mechanism.

I don't intend for you to understand my point. Indeed, quoting back my own words to me without the least amount of reflection displays that you are more interested in questions than answers.
 
128Judy
      ID: 4010521520
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 12:07
No conspricy it was just a no tell policy. #9 It's a definite NO!. #126 Question everything!!! You are right it's better then being "among" sheep when one of them is a wolf in a sheeps clothing. Some practice to deceive. Succeed they do. Idiots are the ones who say one thing yet know they believe something else. A person who can be easily be swayed are the only idiots. I grew up as a Godd--n idiot my father told me so! People here admonish each other. Argue beliefs. When I see the growing concept here to find a definite common ground. To each his own has not applied. I have not read too much about right and wrong. The biggest argument here is about finding something to agree on. No one here seems to want to agree that its normal to disagree. Well thank goodness! It's better to find a compromise, not to agree to disagree but to agree to find a common element. Judgement has no place here.
 
129Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 12:12
PD

1) Bush isn't remotely trying to empower my religion. It isn't possible to be more wrong than you are on that point.

2) You aren't seriously asking anyone to believe I am more likely to buy the MSM/official version of events than you. That's crazy talk.
 
130The Treasonists
      ID: 57225913
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 12:19
Silverstein

You need to click on the button to increase the size.

Luckily, he had taken out terrorist insurance just weeks before 9/11.

There was a trial to determine if it was one occurance or two. (WTC 1 and 2) I agree that blowing up your own building should be insurance fraud.
 
131Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 12:27
#129: No, that's a joke.

That fact that you don't get it demonstrates that humor isn't God-given, but evolves.

That's another joke, BTW.
 
132Judy
      ID: 4010521520
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 13:08
#131 You dumb jerk. Your perception is off the radar! Someone once said, " I refuse to explain myself, for those who would understand don't need an explination, and those who need one wouldn't understand". Humor is something you conceive of inside your laugh when its funny not when your embarrased. Humility a place you are right? When the jokes on you and everyone around you are laughing. Are you down on yourself crying that no one understsnds?
 
133sarge33rd
      ID: 148422311
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 13:12
<---cornfused
 
134Judy
      ID: 4010521520
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 13:34
Confused why? A sense of humor is not determined by those who dish it out but by those who laugh. When a person laughs at his own jokes it's personal not something to many people laugh along with. Mostly people make fun of themselves to hide the ugly truth. 9/11 is serious. We are on our toes. Certainly not dancing! We KNOW it CAN happen to us. If you were in charge what would you do? If you are such a Bush hater you would concede right. The fight with words would prevail and peace would be in place. Lives would have never been lost and those who lost their lives wouldn't matter. Right? Those military men who joined in the fight would be those who were suckered in by a paycheck. What do you want me to believe?
 
135soxzeitgeist
      ID: 199531715
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 13:36
Man, just when I think that I have this whole "english as my native tounge" thing figured out, Judy throws me a curevball.
 
136Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 13:39
Don't try, sox. Really.
 
137Judy
      ID: 4010521520
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 13:54
132 perm you always seem practible and clear yet at times there is only one side for you. Anyone here can see how your judgement can be trusted but yet question whether you trust yourself. Language is a funny thing. It's always changing. What is a fact because if I knew what that word meant I maybe could better be understood. Because as I understand it, now as opposed to then you know when fact was truth not now as fact is alledged but opposed. Email me because I have a BILLION questions for you and you might be the one with all the answers.
 
138Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 13:56
You already have my email address, J. If not, your husband has it. Email away.
 
139sarge33rd
      ID: 148422311
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 13:56
Because as I understand it, now as opposed to then you know when fact was truth not now as fact is alledged but opposed.

That sentence gave me a headache. :(
 
140Judy
      ID: 4010521520
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 14:04
take some asprin!!!
 
141Judy
      ID: 4010521520
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 14:15
Sarge you have incredible Katie! Here you use her to define and absolve you of your inequities yet you want us underdogs to bow-wow. Want to butt heads? My butt is up in the air!
 
142Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 14:19
Holy crap! Guru needs to save that post for some kind of Hall of Fame.
 
143sarge33rd
      ID: 148422311
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 14:19
*funny, I dont remember popping any acid this morning? so why am I trippin????*
 
144samuli
      ID: 4593715
      Wed, Nov 16, 2005, 14:49
What I'd like to know is what the hell was general Mahmoud Ahmad, the head of the Pakistani ISI (the biggest financial supporter of Taliban & Al-Qaida) and the guy who, as FBI claims, had just transferred US$100,000 to a Floridan bank account owned by Mohammed Atta, doing having meetings with people like George Tenet, senator Bob Graham, senator John Kyl and congress-man Porter Gross during the week leading to the 11th sept.? The word is they were having discussions regarding the upcoming war against the Taliban (who had started backing away from their earlier promises to allow an oil-pipeline to be built in Afganistan), even though there was no way to make the war look legit at that point. Furthermore, as Cheney & co. didn't beat around bushes naming OBL the prime suspect hours after the attacks, why wasn't the said OBL taken into custody when he was treated for kidney problems in an American military hospital in Dubai between 4th and 14th of july 2001?
 
145The Treasonists
      ID: 57225913
      Thu, Nov 17, 2005, 13:15
I've heard that kidney treatment rumour before. I suppose if you're going to blame Clinton for not getting Osama when he had some chances , you also have to blame Bush if this kidney thing is true. Osama's probably dead now anyways.
 
146nerveclinic
      ID: 19730619
      Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 01:02


A pretty simple explanation of why anyone would conspire to blow up the world trade center simply to start a war in Iraq is contained here...

link

DUH

 
147nerveclinic
      ID: 19730619
      Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 03:13


You were supposed to send it to Seattle Zen, who would give it the reaming it truly deserves.

Toral


Funny Toral, you've had the book two years and not only haven't you reamed it, you haven't even tossed it's salad.

 
148nerveclinic
      ID: 19730619
      Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 03:13

sheez I'll probably get in trouble for that last one.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 
149nerveclinic
      ID: 19730619
      Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 03:23


Toral Good Lord. The Christians destroyed WTC 7.

We were hoping it wouldn't be found out, but, what can you say? Destroying WTC 7 helped us extend our hegemony over society.

Course, we aren't too bright, as y'all know. Our attempts to cover our tracks were pretty weak, and we got caught up in contradictions many times by home decorators in the southwest U.S. and professional con men in California.


Man, just when I think that I have this whole "english as my native tounge" thing figured out, Toral throws me a curevball.

 
150Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 08:23
Nerve

Cuo Bono? Who benefits?

Just ask the clients of Buzzy Krongard.

www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/10_09_01_krongard.html

 
151nerveclinic
      ID: 19730619
      Fri, Nov 18, 2005, 11:31


The chart in my link was Haliburton since the start of the Iraq war compared to the SP 500.

A 250% return on your investment in three years isn't bad. The stock has doubled this year alone.

How many of us stated at the time of the war that companies like Haliburton were the real reason we are in Iraq?

 
152Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Nov 22, 2005, 13:37
Just came across this James Ridgeway book--I'm going to take a look through. Thought I'd throw the link up in case anyone else has either read it or might be interested themselves.
 
153Judy
      ID: 910492514
      Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 15:05
Something needs to be said... It's not always right to be policticly correct. Sometimes it's NEVER right to throw our beliefs and morals away, sometimes what we think of ourselves matters even though we are taught not to think of ourselves. Last of all if we are taught to believe in ourselves the least why do we believe in those who fail us more, less? You want the F_______ truth? Let your heart bleed. There is a common ground. The truth sets a president. Are you willing to rub your face in the face of defeet? or can you hold out? Can you stand the stench?
 
154ukula
      ID: 1011291315
      Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 16:31
Judy frightens me.
 
156Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Mon, Jan 30, 2006, 22:35
A Utahn leads the way

Last fall, Brigham Young University physics professor Steven E. Jones made headlines when he charged that the World Trade Center collapsed because of "pre-positioned explosives." Now, along with a group that calls itself "Scholars for 9/11 Truth," he's upping the ante.
"We believe that senior government officials have covered up crucial facts about what really happened on 9/11," the group says in a statement released Friday announcing its formation. "We believe these events may have been orchestrated by the administration in order to manipulate the American people into supporting policies at home and abroad."
Headed by Jones and Jim Fetzer, University of Minnesota Duluth distinguished McKnight professor of philosophy, the group is made up of 50 academicians and others.
They include Robert M. Bowman, former director of the U.S. "Star Wars" space defense program, and Morgan Reynolds, former chief economist for the Department of Labor in President George W. Bush's first term. Most of the members are less well-known.



Also of interest is this essay about the trials and tribulations Jones has been subjected to for having the courage of his convictions.


link
 
157Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Mon, Jan 30, 2006, 22:59
Wow!
 
158The Treasonists
      ID: 57225913
      Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 09:29
This is my favorite thread.

One of their findings that I had never heard before, seems to be easily verifiable:

• The video of Osama bin Laden found by American troops in Afghanistan in December 2001, in which bin Laden says he orchestrated the attacks, is not bin Laden. The Scholars for 9/11 Truth compared the video with a photo of the "real" bin Laden and argue that there are discrepancies in the ratio of nose-length to nose-width, as well as distance from tip-of-nose to ear lobe.




 
159Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 09:39
Hey that BYU professor is a cold fusion guy. I always wondered what people like that do with themselves after their frauds are exposed.
 
160Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 09:51
The cold fusion was a product of the University of Utah, not BYU.

If you're going to accuse someone of fraud, at least get the university right.
 
161Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 10:10
Fair enough. Rereading your linked story, this guy has his own theory of cold fusion, which is different from the U Utah people's.

Cold fusion as a source of energy could revolutionize our society, so I sure hope this guy's not letting his 9/11 work distract him from perfecting his cold fusion theory.
 
162Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 13:44
To be fair Toral, cold fusion isn't quite as dead as you suggest. He and his peers discovered a reaction that is still not understood the last time I checked into it. Whether it turns out to be cold fusion or not, it was still an intriguing discovery and certainly was not a deliberate fraud or hoax or anything as shameful as you suggest. Science doesn't advance by sneering at every intriguing discovery.
 
163Toral
      ID: 541029611
      Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 14:32
This article from Wired seems to agree with you.
 
164Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 15:26
Toral's remarks about cold fusion had nothing to do with any scientific project. It was an obvious attempt to discredit Jones as a serious scientist, thereby dismissing his credentials and position concerning the WTC collapse.

I would expect Toral to approach the resume of all 50 of these scientists and scholars in the same manner. That is the main reason so many scientists and engineers have remained silent on the subject, since stating a position as Jones has done invites ridicule, suspicion of motive, slander, and questioning of patriotism.

What it doesn't do is create an environment for objectivity.
In that vein, it is clear that the official reports from NIST and FEMA are themselves theories. Considering that each building's collapse was almot identical, that the pancaking defiies the laws of gravity, it's no suprise that the final NIST report states:

The probable collapse sequences, which update and finalize hypotheses released by NIST last October, were presented by Sunder at a press briefing in New York City.


link

As for the even more mysterious implosion of building 7?

The NIST investigation of the WTC 7 building collapse is not yet complete. The report on the WTC 7 collapse investigation will be released in draft form for public comment and posted on this web site as soon as it is available. link

So, there is no official conclusion as to why WTC 7 collapsed, but anyone who has seen the video and a corresponding video of a controlled demolition would make an obvious comparison since they are identical.

The NIST and FEMA reports investigated with the pre-conceived notion that the planes were the cause of the WTC collapse, and worked with that premise.

From link #1

The specific factors in the collapse sequences relevant to both towers (the sequences vary in detail for WTC 1 and WTC 2) are:

Each aircraft severed perimeter columns, damaged interior core columns and knocked off fireproofing from steel as the planes penetrated the buildings. The weight carried by the severed columns was distributed to other columns.
Subsequently, fires began that were initiated by the aircraft’s jet fuel but were fed for the most part by the building contents and the air supply resulting from breached walls and fire-induced window breakage.
These fires, in combination with the dislodged fireproofing, were responsible for a chain of events in which the building core weakened and began losing its ability to carry loads.
The floors weakened and sagged from the fires, pulling inward on the perimeter columns.
Floor sagging and exposure to high temperatures caused the perimeter columns to bow inward and buckle—a process that spread across the faces of the buildings.
Collapse then ensued.


Jones addresses each of these causations in his paper.
At the very least, there is reasonable doubt as to the collapse of these three buildings and the resulting conclusions by the government agencies.

As Jones points out in his paper regarding WTC 7(I have linked to the exact FEMA finding in this forum several years ago):

Concluding remarks in the FEMA report on the WTC 7 collapse lend support to these arguments:

The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse [“official theory”] remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis [fire/debris-damage-caused collapse] has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue. (FEMA, 2002, chapter 5; emphasis added.)



That is precisely the point: further investigation and analyses are indeed needed, including serious consideration of the controlled-demolition hypothesis which is neglected in all of the government reports (FEMA, NIST and 9-11 Commission reports). Note that the 9-11 Commission report does not even mention the collapse of WTC 7 on 9-11-01. (Commission, 2004) This is a striking omission of data highly relevant to the question of what really happened on 9-11.


 
165Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 16:42
Never forget when Toral comments on this subject, that Toral isn't sure if there is a 'British Conspiracy' but if there is he's entirely in favor of it.
 
166akorch16
      ID: 5819419
      Wed, Feb 15, 2006, 20:22
sorry if i'm bringing up a dead issue here (regarding the pentagon, that is), but i found this to be important. i don't know if it's been brought up before (i didn't see any mention of it in this thread), but i'll say it anyway.

you can argue with pictures, with witnesses' statements, with inconsistencies, etc. but, i find it very hard to argue with science. here are a few links to reports from the Armed Forces Institute of Paleontology regarding the forensic evidence of the pentagon victims. the project was named "Operation Noble Eagle". you could argue that this is a made-up organization, that its biased to the government, etc, but that would be beside the point of the information these articles suggest. you could also argue "how can they find teeth, but not a plane?" that's not only beside the point (as first of all, parts of the fuselage were found as reported through a firefighter chief -- if you want the link, i guess i could find it), but it's answered in the official report.

LINKS:

DCmilitary report

AFIP brief report

Official Report


to be clear, i find a number of inconsistencies to exist in the pentagon strike. what that may lead to, i do not know. however, i think that there's little doubt that a plane crashed into the pentagon.
 
167Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Feb 15, 2006, 22:55
What inconsistencies?
 
168akorch16
      ID: 5819419
      Wed, Feb 15, 2006, 23:28
perm dude,

i should probably change "a number of inconsistencies" in the last part of my original post to say "a few inconsitencies." and by "a few" i mean that the number of small inconsistencies are completely overwhelmed by the sheer amount of contradicting evidence (i.e. illogicalness (sp/word?) of other possibilites like a cruise missle, witnesses' statements, pictures of scraps of the plane, etc). i think that the afip's report is one more chunk of a mountain of evidence against a ridiculous theory based solely upon ambiguous questions.
 
169nerveclinic
      ID: 19730619
      Thu, Feb 16, 2006, 01:01

akorch16

If there was a conspiracy involving the crash at the Pentagon the information in the above links you pasted would be easy to fabricate. Simple matter for Black Ops.

After seeing what appeared to be a missile hit the pentagon, what a sceptic would prefer to see as evidence, is the footage of the "plane" hitting the pentagon, since the secret service canvased the area and took all video tapes from every business in the area.

It would be easy to show the footage and it's suprizing that it hasn't been released.

That having been said, the video of the "missile" hitting the Pentagon just looked to slick, to well produced to me. Something about it just didn't seem right.

Just my opinion.
 
170Boxman
      ID: 6112165
      Thu, Feb 16, 2006, 06:19
Suppose it was a missile that hit the Pentagon. What happened to all the people that were allegedly on the plane that hit the Pentagon?
 
171Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Feb 16, 2006, 07:41
Which is exactly why this idea makes such good disinformation.

If you can discredit all questioning into 9/11 as just "conspiracy theorists who actually believe that pentagon flight landed elsewhere and those people are still alive" then no one will look into 9/11 any further. I think Nerve's comments on the production values [and origination URL's] of this probable disinfo was very insightful and he noticed this stuff many months ago.

Similarly I think that [joke?] meme of the person waking up in the bathtub without a kidney was disinformation. There are some very sinister things that actually are happening with organs, such as China selectively choosing the timing of executions of political prisoners so that they can provide organs for custom order, and loosening the definition of death in this country to provide more usable organs for transplant. But no one will seriously question organ transplant issues when all they have to do is bring up the far fetched "wake-up-in-the-bathtub" meme.

I'll tell you another great disinfo campaign. Remember when even the Readers' Digest fell for the meme that Russian spys are stupid because they can't even buy pants. They wear baggy pants? Well in truth there has never been a better, more effective spy operation than they have and they were at the very same time having huge mindboggling successes like taking over military bases in this country but don't give them another thot. They're too stupid to even avoid wearing those baggy pants.
 
172Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Thu, Feb 16, 2006, 08:02
Government reports do not take into consideration the very basis for any judicial conclusions, which is the cross-examination of any evidence presented.

Similar to the NIST report on the towers' implosions, the Pentagon used pre-conceived conclusions, then tweaked their models to fit said conclusions, regardless of the physical logic that disputes the original assumptions.

In the Dewdney and Longspaugh study, besides giving compelling evidence to doubt that a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon on 9/11, they address the AFIP report:

In November of 2001, the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) completed a massive study of the DNA of Pentagon victims (Kelly 2001), finding matches between remains and DNA samples allegedly retrieved from victims' homes (gleaned from hairbrushes and other articles of personal use). Although it may well have been the case that matches were expertly made, the weak link in the chain of evidence lies in the collection of samples. DNA technicians would have no way of knowing where all the samples came from. That would be the job of army and FBI personnel that did most of the collecting.

Few people realize how simple it is to obtain tissue samples or body parts clandestinely from morgues, medical school cadaver rooms, any place that dead bodies may be found. Such venues are easily entered by persons who identify the,selves as officials of one kind or another.
A piece of liver or arm tissue complemented by a few hairs, all from the same corpse would be all that's necessary to "identify" a particular person. Would DNA from these different sources match? Of course they would, since they're from the same individual. Hypnotized by the word "match," media types would probably not even realize that "match" does not mean "identify," unless there were independent verification of the source of the samples.

Other problems with the DNA identification process involve contradictions with other claims made by the White House and/or Pentagon about the attack. One claim, that the aircraft was "completely vaporized" makes it doubtful that any of the DNA survived the holocaust. Another claim, that the aircraft was blown into little bits by the initial explosion, would imply that body parts would have been scattered all over the Pentagon grounds - which they weren't.

Given the poor track record of the US government and military in providing accurate information about its military and "antiterrorism" activities, any counterfactual claims must be taken with a large grain of salt.




 
173Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Feb 16, 2006, 08:50
Even if it were true

I'll grant that people have dug up some very suspicious things about plane landings that could actually explain the missing flight. And I'll grant that there was a wildly suspicious lack of damage on the front of the pentagon. There was no plane sized hole. Plain and simple.

Never-the-less this isn't the issue to attack the official version of events with respect to 9/11.

No one is going to believe that Barbara Olson wasn't killed crashing into the pentagon and that Ted Olson wasn't widowed from that crash.

Not even me frankly.

So if they faked this thing they sure did too good of a job to challenge them on it.

I'll give you a Clinton comparison as is my wont...

There was a "Clinton had a black child with a prositute" story that came out while he was in office. I garanttee that that story was as true as the day is long. But they did an "official" dna analysis [some tabloid had the kid's DNA run and compared it to what was supposedly Clinton's DNA] that "cleared" him. Now when we actually went and looked into DNA matching of powerful people we found out that people as powerful as Clinton and CEO's of major corporations have phony DNA signatures published for some reason, having to do with possible kidnapping as I recall it. Anyway all Clinton had to do was allow the tabloid to assume they had Clinton's DNA profile when in fact the real one wouldn't have been available to them.

My point is that once Clinton "was cleared" supposedly there was never going to be a way to break that perception in the public. No matter how well you proved that the kid was Bill's you were never going to win on that issue. It didn't matter what was true, you just had to back away from that story as fast as you could.

Similarly there are much more fruitful promising issues than whether it was an airliner that slammed into the pentagon. We should all move on no matter what the truth of the matter.
 
174katietx
      ID: 5615158
      Thu, Feb 16, 2006, 09:57
It amazes me that we are still talking about this. The fact remains (as B stated - can't believe I'm agreeing with him), real people died on that plane.

Could it have been shot down? Sure. But to actually believe there was no plane that crashed into the pentagon, well lets ask the families of those who were killed.

Little discussion has taken place here on what the gov't might have done with all those folks if this were some giant conspiracy. Are they languising in some Fed operated camp? Maybe they all got shipped to GITMO.
 
175nerveclinic
      ID: 19730619
      Thu, Feb 16, 2006, 22:53

Boxman

Suppose it was a missile that hit the Pentagon. What happened to all the people that were allegedly on the plane that hit the Pentagon?

Baldwin provided one possible explanation in post 45. Again I am not stating that it is my belief that it was a missle though.

 
176nerveclinic
      ID: 19730619
      Thu, Feb 16, 2006, 22:56

Few people realize how simple it is to obtain tissue samples or body parts clandestinely from morgues, medical school cadaver rooms, any place that dead bodies may be found. Such venues are easily entered by persons who identify the,selves as officials of one kind or another.
A piece of liver or arm tissue complemented by a few hairs, all from the same corpse would be all that's necessary to "identify" a particular person.


That's exactly what I meant when I said it would be easy for black ops to manufacture the story.

 
177The Treasonists
      ID: 571192610
      Thu, Feb 16, 2006, 23:01
There are a couple of theories on this:

- The plane was switched with another plane in a poor radar area. The original flight was then ordered to land at a military base and the passsengers were loaded onto flight 93 to crash in Pa.

- The original flight was taken over by remote control and flown to a military base. Again, a switch had to take place with a smaller plane.

- Crashed at sea.

Since nobody on the flight has been seen in 5 years, they are probably all dead.
 
178nerveclinic
      ID: 19730619
      Thu, Feb 16, 2006, 23:07
Katie X: The fact remains (as B stated - can't believe I'm agreeing with him), real people died on that plane.

When you are in the audience at a Magic show, and the magician "saws a woman in half" are you shocked when he puts her back together and she walks away unharmed?

Did you read the link in post 45, it could provide a plausable explanation. Just because the people on the flight are dead, does not prove they crashed into the Pentagon.

We now see that many, many hundreds of billions of dollars have been generated for friends of the President and the Vice President because of this "terrorist" act. We know that there are many questions they aren't adequitely answering, and we know that they confisgated video footage of the events and have refused to show them to the public.

Why wouldn't we still be talking about it?

You also assured us that the Catholic church truely hates freemasons, even though there is a freemason obliesk sitting right in the middle of the main court yard of the Vatican.

 
179Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Mon, Feb 20, 2006, 08:08
I think this is one more clear case of the need profiling and I think it belongs in this thread first and foremost.
In the face of national outrage and sharp criticism from Republican and Democrat leaders, President Bush's head of homeland security is defending the plan to turn over operations of six U.S. ports to an Arab company.

"We have a very disciplined process, it's a classified process, for reviewing any acquisition by a foreign company of assets that we consider relevant to national security," DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff told Tim Russert on NBC's "Meet the Press."

A merger deal approved by the federal government has the company currently running the ports, London-based Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, getting acquired by the Emirati firm, Dubai Ports World. UAE has known ties to terrorists and 9-11 hijackers, raising concerns about security issues at the ports involved: New York, Baltimore, New Jersey, New Orleans, Miami and Philadelphia.
One wonders what use neocons have of further 'Pearl Harbors'?
 
180katietx
      ID: 5615158
      Mon, Feb 20, 2006, 10:34
When you are in the audience at a Magic show, and the magician "saws a woman in half" are you shocked when he puts her back together and she walks away unharmed?

Of course. That's the explanation. And, the Holocaust never happened; the moon landings never happened.....ad infinitum.
 
181Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Mon, Feb 20, 2006, 10:45
Nerve is very very selective about which non-conventional versions of events he trumpets and you cannot get any fair minded person to believe Nerve deserves to be lumped in with holocaust deniers.
 
182Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Thu, Mar 02, 2006, 12:12
California couple spots Adnan el-Shukrijumah, the guy described as 'the next OBL' by the FBI, get his license number and can't get anyone at any level of government to investigate. Especially interesting given all the recent hints of al qeada activity in California.
 
183Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 251116277
      Thu, Mar 02, 2006, 12:21
The eyewitnesses, a husband and wife who wish to remain anonymous for security reasons, say they encountered el-Shukrijumah and other potential al-Qaida operatives, including Aafia Siddiqui, in a small café near Lake Isabella Sept. 7, 2005. They described him as small (approximately 5'4"), thin (about 130 pounds), and clean-shaven with a prominent nose, dark eyes and black hair. They noted that he appeared nervous and spoke English to his Middle Eastern companions without an accent.

They were able to identify the individual as Adnan el-Shukrijumah from a mug-shot that appeared on the front pages of newspapers throughout the country when he became the subject of a BOLO (Be-on-the-lookout) report that was issued jointly by FBI Director Robert Mueller and former Attorney General John Ashcroft at a national press conference March 21, 2004.

The couple became more convinced that the figure in question was the elusive terrorist after reading "The Al Qaeda Connection" by Paul L. Williams, a WND contributor and former FBI consultant.

Several weeks later, they spotted the suspects near the same location and managed to jot down their license numbers.

In compliance with the BOLO report, they made their way to the office of Sheriff Mack Wimbish in Kern County, where they say they filed an official report and were told the anti-terrorism unit would contact them in the immediate future.

But nothing happened.
 
184sarge33rd
      ID: 2511422414
      Thu, Mar 02, 2006, 13:27
but remember, we have to be right every time, they only have to be right once.

Nice to know Homeland Security is working so well, given the trampling of the Constitution that is being endured under that guise.
 
185Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 251116277
      Thu, Mar 02, 2006, 13:53
Sarge, how is this an example of Homeland Security not "working so well"?

All we know is that someformer FBI consultant who also happens to be a WND contributer and this anonymous couple in CA weren't contacted by law enforcement after some repeated reports that claimed to identify a wanted terror suspect.

I can think of a dozens of reasons for why these people might not have been contacted. Only two of them are a lack of interest and incompetance in catching terror susoects.
 
186nerveclinic
      ID: 19730619
      Fri, Mar 03, 2006, 11:12
Nerve is very very selective about which non-conventional versions of events he trumpets and you cannot get any fair minded person to believe Nerve deserves to be lumped in with holocaust deniers.

Nor am I saying a the plane didn't hit the pentagon. I'm just saying there are unanswered questions, that the government refuses to answer and we the people deserve an explanation.

My point to Katie was that I don't just believe everything I am spoon feed by the government, like any cynic I prefer to see proof when there are plenty of unanswered questions.

Katie still hasn't explained to me why the most important symbol of free masonary sits in the court yard of the Vatican if the catholic church is so "against free masons".

Maybe next they will start installing giant statues of Satan.

 
187Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Fri, Mar 17, 2006, 18:30
You will never forget watching this video.
 
188nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Wed, Mar 29, 2006, 22:44

The video that Baldwin linked to in the post above (187) is starting to make some waves.

I overheard a group of people at work discussing it.

Today a SF chronicle columnist published a glowing review of it as well as a new book on the 9-11 conspiracy theories (written by Mark Jacobson at New York magazine). This is a "major" newspaper, the biggest in the bay area, not some off beat rag.

This wasn't a "what a bunch of kooks" article, it was a "you should really check this out article."

For the moment the article is available here.

If you haven't seen the video Baldwin linked to, it's well worth a look.

If your not willing to take the time to examine it, then you really don't have the ability to satire conspiracy theory because you are not examining the empirical evidence.

The video raises more questions, and in a more detailed manner, then the earlier videos we've looked at. (frankly I am only half way through it but I hope to finish it later tonight.)

One interesting detail is the footage right after the accident from eye witnesses describing, among other things explosions well after the plane crashed.

It would be interesting to pick up the discussion again given this new more detailed piece of evidence if anyone is game.

Lots of unanswered questions. We deserve answers.

 
189Boxman
      ID: 57228305
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 06:40
It is when an alleged "major" newspaper writes like this,

"But on this, the third anniversary of the launch of Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq by way of whoring the tragedy of Sept. 11 for his cronies' appalling gain"

that I change the channel.

People can think what they want about the war, Bush, or 9/11. It's when a "major" newspaper is nothing more than a mouthpiece for left wing smear merchants that it doesn't look like a "major" newspaper but instead a poorly produced college frathouse rumor rag and then the credibility goes right down the toilet.

Regarding Boldwin's movie, I have started watching it and it's compelling. Definitely worth the time investment so far and I am not a conspiracy buff.

I have every intention of finishing it and I really want to score a DVD copy because I am collecting 9/11 books and DVDs for future generations of my family and all I have so far is "mainstream" stuff.
 
190Tree
      ID: 38242305
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 06:44
"But on this, the third anniversary of the launch of Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq by way of whoring the tragedy of Sept. 11 for his cronies' appalling gain"

well, it was illegal. and the reasons provided to the american people and the world turned out to be, at best, completely false, and at worst, outright lies.

the right has repeatedly used 9/11 as a reason for anything, from the war in iraq to immigration restrictions.
 
191Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 4923198
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 07:30
From what major newspaper did you get that quote, Box? A Google search that includes your quotes didn't turn up any results.

I have no idea where you saw or heard that sentence or whether you made it up or what but I assume you do understand the difference between an opinion piece and a news article, right?
 
192Boxman
      ID: 57228305
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 07:44
Tree: Again, think what you want about the war. I'm just saying that if someone wants credibility that they can do a lot better than being a smear merchant. I don't care if you don't like Bush, the war, or even what W has for breakfast. Your opinion. Fine.

But if a newspaper thinks they can actually convince people with things like that I'm just curious as to who they think they are fooling or if they are just interested in preaching to the choir.

Mith: Had you actually been civil in the past, I would honestly tell you. I much prefer you embarassing yourself though. Keep up the good work.

 
193Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 07:46
a mouthpiece for left wing smear merchants

Some of the promoters of the 9/11 truth movement:

Steven A Jones - conservative physics professor - BYU

David Ray Griffin - conservative theology professor - Claremont College

Robert Bowman - Director of SDI Defense program -Reagan Administration

Morgan Reynolds - chief economist, Department of Labor - George W Bush administration

Stanley Hilton - former aide to Republican Bob Dole

Kevin Ryan - manager of Underwriters
Labarotory, contracted by the government to assist in the official NIST report on the WTC implosions


Of course there are many more who won't risk public ridicule or being labeled left wing smear merchants for obvious reasons.
 
194Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 07:52
MITH - It's a quote from the piece that nerve linked to - directly above Boxman's post.
 
195Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 4923198
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 08:11
I guess I know the answer to my question.
 
196Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 08:32
if someone wants credibility that they can do a lot better than being a smear merchant.

Do you hold Popular Mechanics to the same standards? Here are some of the phrases they use in the introduction to their famous "debunking" of 9/11 conspiracy theory article:

... curdled into paranoia. Wild conspiracy tales..

..cynical imaginations that aim to inject suspicion and animosity into public debate.

..poisonous claims..


I've yet to see anyone characterize these definitions as coming from right wing smear merchants.
 
197ukula
      ID: 11240307
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:17
I'm glad to see this whole topic getting some coverage in the MSM. Charlie Sheen spoke out last week questioning the "official story" of 9/11. This was big news on CNN's Showbiz Tonight for three days last week. It was the first time the MSM ever significantly discussed this topic. Of course, Ed Asner (big peace activist) was scheduled to appear on Monday with author Sander Hicks to discuss this same matter. At the last minute high-level executives at CNN told the producers to "kill it". Hmmmmm.....

Charlie Sheen questions 9/11 official story

Anyone who watches Dylan Avery's excellent documentary will no doubt agree that there are serious questions that need to be answered.

 
198Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:21
Charlie Sheen. Ed Asner. Showbiz Tonight. I'll take your word for it that that's the coverage this deserves.
 
199ukula
      ID: 11240307
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:21
Another one of those left-wing smear merchant, whackjob, nutjob, wide-eyed, tinfoil-hat wearing conspiracy lunatics:

"This is a cover-up. It's not a third-rate political burglary. It's a cover-up of information on the largest attack in the history of the country."
-Congressman Curt Weldon (R-PA)
on CNN, regarding the Pentagon and 9/11 Commission's suppression of Able Danger, 11/9/05
 
200Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:23
Charlie Sheen sounded like an idiot.

What's next--Tom Cruise bouncing on Oprah's couch is now "MSM's taking criticism of psychoanalysts seriously"?
 
201Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:24
Seems to me that many people who question the "MSM" (and who assume the existence of such a thing as a true and identifiable entity) also are sharply critical of celebrity political forays.

Not here, I guess. You'll take your supporters where you can get them.
 
202ukula
      ID: 11240307
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:27
Attack the messengers, Ignore the message.
 
203ukula
      ID: 11240307
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:30
I like how you try to link Charlie Sheen to Tom Cruise. Try sticking to the topic.
 
204nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:34
Boxman had you read the piece more carefully, and the by-line at the bottom, you would have been more honest and pointed out that the quote wasn't the "newspaper" making the statement, it was a single columnist who's work they include twice a week.

The quote was not the opinion of the paper itself, just a line by an entertainment section editorial columnist.

Does every editorial comment that a newspaper publishes, (by a writer not even on their news editorial staff) mean they agree with every statement made?

The writer is a book/movie writer, this article is from the entertainment section of the paper.

Be brave Boxman.

Watch the movie and show us why it's so wrong.

I'm sure you can snicker as you pick it apart, so give it a shot.

I'm guessing you'd rather live in your cozy world rather then confront grave possibilities.

The writers comments you quoted reflect a large segment of the populations opinion, should that not be published? Or do you prefer to be protected from a statement that many of us consider fact.

Maybe all we should hear is the "governments" opinions in our newspapers.

I'm guessing where you live, that may be all your spoonfeed if your so shocked by the statement you refered to.
 
205Boxman
      ID: 582442813
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:39
How does this,

"Regarding Boldwin's movie, I have started watching it and it's compelling. Definitely worth the time investment so far and I am not a conspiracy buff.

I have every intention of finishing it and I really want to score a DVD copy because I am collecting 9/11 books and DVDs for future generations of my family and all I have so far is "mainstream" stuff."

get a response like this,

"Be brave Boxman.

Watch the movie and show us why it's so wrong.

I'm sure you can snicker as you pick it apart, so give it a shot.

I'm guessing you'd rather live in your cozy world rather then confront grave possibilities.

The writers comments you quoted reflect a large segment of the populations opinion, should that not be published? Or do you prefer to be protected from a statement that many of us consider fact.

Maybe all we should hear is the "governments" opinions in our newspapers.

I'm guessing where you live, that may be all your spoonfeed if your so shocked by the statement you refered to."
 
206Boxman
      ID: 582442813
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:41
It is not the opinion I object to Nerve. I never said that. What I DID say is that smear merchanting anyone won't win points with a lot of people whether it is Pat "Killer" Robertson wanting Chavez dead or some guy in San Francisco.
 
207nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:44

PD: Not here, I guess. You'll take your supporters (celebrities) where you can get them.

I don't get my support from celebrities.

I get it from examining evidence presented to me with an open mind. I also get it by listening to critics examine the evidence and present counter points to poke holes in it.

No one on this political discussion forum seems to be capable of doing it when it comes to this topic.

No one who has attempted to debunk these 9-11 questions outside this forum has done so adequitly.

There are problematic questions.

God knows the "right" on this forum never fails to take on every other topic, but they just won't sink their teeth into this one.

If this was Clinton (And it just as easily could be IMHO) the right would be all over this story.



 
208Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:45
Charlie Sheen sounded like an idiot.

I've never seen any of the TV coverage, but nothing he says in Ukula's link in #197 sounds idiotic.

What, specifically, did he say that made him look like an idiot?






 
209Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:50
you don't take celebrity endorsements, but I don't think ukula has the bar as high as you do.
 
210nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 10:51


In post 189 Boxman you said you would "change the channel".

That implies not watching it.

If you are going to watch it I take back everything I said and of course you are welcome to disagree with the writers comment about Bush.

I just thought you were implieing that it was your excuse to "turn the channel" as would most people who read that comment.

For the record, it's not an "alleged" major newspaper.

The Bay area has a very, very large population.

This is a major newspaper.

 
211Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 11:06
I'm afraid, uke, that anyone who talks about the "MSM" as a real entity gets no respect from me when complaining about how "they" are handling or not handling a particular issue. You've got your bone, now go ahead and chew it in the corner in silence.

nerve, on the other hand, has never blamed MSM for anything. He certainly questions motives, examines evidence (even if he comes to different conclusions than I do) and digs into topics. He doesn't confuse the issue by blaming the "MSM" for not being politically aligned with his own views.
 
212ukula
      ID: 11240307
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 11:10
pd - You're missing the point. It's not the fact that Charlie Sheen said it, it's the fact that it made the news and now, hopefully, people will start talking about it. The MSM is afraid to touch this topic for whatever reason. People need to be informed. If Joe Schmoe made those comments it wouldn't even make the news.
 
213nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 11:11

Um I don't even know what MSM is.

 
214ukula
      ID: 11240307
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 11:14
pd - I don't respect you either because you refuse to look into the facts. Just another sheep jumping on the couch. You add nothing to this thread except some comic relief, please go away.
 
215Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 11:14
No uke, you're missing my point. The fact that people are talking about it doesn't change whether it's true or not. Amiri Baraka spoke about how the Jews planned 9/11. People talked about that quite a bit at the time but it didn't make it true.
 
216Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 11:14
Boxman 3/30/06:
What I DID say is that smear merchanting anyone won't win points with a lot of people whether it is Pat "Killer" Robertson wanting Chavez dead or some guy in San Francisco.

Boxman 1/23/06:
Coulter and Malkin scratch my itch.
and
What I like about Coulter is that she doesn't drop what Ted Kennedy got away with (Driving that girl off a bridge.) and she isn't afraid to declare what Robert Byrd really is.
 
217nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 11:15



MSM (main stream media?)

Just a guess.

 
218ukula
      ID: 11240307
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 11:17
MSM - Main Stream Media, ie CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc... The places where 95% of the public gets their news.
 
219ukula
      ID: 11240307
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 11:21
My point is that unless this topic hits one of the major news outlets, 95% of the public have no clue. Create as many websites as you want, hit your Cable Access channels, hit your school newspapers, but unless there is a discussion on ABC, for example, most people will continue to live in the dark.
 
220ukula
      ID: 11240307
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 11:24
Thus the reason why Charlie Sheen's story being covered on CNN was a major event. The fact that it was Charlie Sheen isn't the point, it could have been Barney the Purple Dinosaur, the fact that it informed a large number of people that there are "questions" concerning 9/11 is the point.
 
221Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 11:59
Steven Jones appeared for 6 minutes on Tucker Carlson's show on MSNBC back in November. This is how Carlson summarized the interview in his blog the following day:

When one of my producers first told me about him, my first thought was: Stephen Jones is insane. And he may be. On the other hand, he does have a legitimate job and a responsible-sounding title. He's not living in the park, or writing me letters in crayon. How crazy could he really be? In the interest of open-mindedness, we booked him. That was probably a mistake.

The entire blog is located
here.

There's no indication Carlson has ever read Jones's paper, as he never takes the opportunity to dispute any part of it. He does, however, have this to say:

Yet - and here's the interesting part - he seemed to connect with a huge number of viewers. Some who e-mailed were offended that Jones would dare question the official version of 9-11. Some were confused by what he was trying to say. But the overwhelming majority wrote to thank me for my "courage" in putting him on, and to complain that we didn't give him more time to explain the conspiracy.

In other words, a lot of people seem to think it's possible that the U.S. government had a hand in bringing down the World Trade Center buildings.

Ponder that for a second: The U.S. government killed more than 3,000 of its own citizens. For no obvious reason. Then lied about it. Then invaded two other countries, killing thousands of their citizens as punishment for a crime they didn't commit.

If you really thought this - or even considered it a possibility - how could you continue to live here? You couldn't. You'd leave the United States on the next available flight and not come back. You'd have no choice. Continuing to pay taxes to a government capable of something so evil would make you complicit in the crime.

So of course most of the people who wrote to say they think the government might have been behind 9-11 don't really think the government might have been behind 9-11. For whatever reason, they just like to say so. Which as far as I'm concerned makes them phony and irresponsible.


Isn't Carlson the same guy Jon Stewart ripped to pieces? It's easy to see why.
 
222Boxman
      ID: 582442813
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 12:25
Mith: Nice one. You just actually showed that you place the fact that Byrd was involved with the Klan and Kennedy drove a woman off a bridge on the same level as left wing hate speech trying to pass off conspiracy theory as fact.

So as to avoid another assault from Nerve, I do have an open mind, but until it is proven. Proven. I cannot place it on the same level as what Byrd and Kennedy have done which Mith alluded to when he compared my disgust for left wing smear merchants versus Coulter & Malkin whom while they do divulge their share of bile on those two specific subject matters, at least base it on widely known and accepted facts.
 
223Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 13:01
I do have an open mind, but until it is proven. Proven.

What's been proven with the Kennedy case other than a tragic accident? You seem to suggest it's murder.

Kennedy drove a woman off a bridge

You might want to also realize that the official 9/11 theory has never been proven.



 
224The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 13:55
I watched the video. There were dozens of witnesses who saw, heard, and felt explosions immediately prior to the Towers collapsing. I've also read transcripts of numerous firefighters observing the same thing.

How did the 911 Commission explain away these observations?
Does anybody know?
Is it mentioned at all?
 
225ukula
      ID: 422583011
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 15:12
It must have been the jet fuel pouring down the elevator shafts and igniting all of the gas stoves in the kitchens. I think that is pretty reasonable - consider it thoroughly debunked. I can't believe you are even questioning this, what are you some kind of nutjob/whackjob, anti-american, tinfoil hat conspiracy nutbag? :)
 
226nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 23:43
You just actually showed that you place the fact that Byrd was involved with the Klan and Kennedy drove a woman off a bridge on the same level as left wing hate speech trying to pass off conspiracy theory as fact.

Box

I have been following conspiracy theory since the late 80's. The vast majority of the serious proponents of it tend to lean toward the right, some far right. It's one of the few political belief systems in which the far left and far right commingle with ease.

I've met many people on the far right who have made the exact same charges about the Bush family. These people generally are on a political scale that would fall to the right of Bush.

Many of them are constitutionalists.

Your calling the writers statement "hate speech". I suspect he sincerely believes that there is something more to 9-11, as well as the invasion of Iraq and if he sincerely believes that, he was simply referring to Bush and company in the same manner you would if you believed the same thing.

I do appreciate the fact you are open minded enough to examine the evidence which is all one can ask.

I still don't know what I think about the 9-11 evidence, I'm just convinced there are questions we deserve answers to.

I do believe the invasion of Iraq was contrived, among other reasons, to create a financial windfall for Haliburton and others. Many said it here before the war started and certainly a look at the stocks over that period bear out the logic to that reasoning.

If it's true, and I do believe so in a non- partisan manner (It's not because Bush is a Republican) then the writers comments were fair.

You don't believe it, so you don't see it that way. Fair enough.

Below is a chart of Haliburton since the start of the war...

The black line is how Haliburton has fared, the brown line is the S&P 500.




Cheney made 20 million dollars a year as the head of Haliburtan right before he went back into office and became the biggest administration cheerleader for the war.

You have my word Boxman, this isn't a matter of hate with me, I just examine the evidence and draw conclusions.

cheers,

nerve

 
227The Treasonists
      ID: 571192610
      Sat, Apr 01, 2006, 08:17
Aren't Democrats allowed to buy stock in Haliburton?
 
228nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Sat, Apr 01, 2006, 09:53


Aren't Democrats allowed to buy stock in Haliburton?

Huh?

 
229biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Sat, Apr 01, 2006, 10:03
Come on, Nerve.

As long as everyone with money and a brokerage account has an opportunity to get a little taste of war profiteering, then it's cool.

Creating the war first is a magnificent touch, showing a particular capitalist flair.

Rosebud.
 
230Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Sun, Apr 02, 2006, 05:19
Lol

Rosebud

 
231nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Sun, Apr 02, 2006, 10:36

As long as everyone with money and a brokerage account has an opportunity to get a little taste of war profiteering, then it's cool.

Yeah and the funny thing is it was all the people on this board who were against the war who would have made the money investing in Haliburton because we all knew what the war was about. This was one of the most sure fire stock investments you could make.

Of course none of us would invest directly in any of these war stocks because we don't like bloody money.

 
232The Treasonists
      ID: 571192610
      Sun, Apr 02, 2006, 13:19
If I had known it was going to go up 250%, I would have bought it. I just didn't think of it, though. Plus it looks like the first 15 months, it didn't do too much, and then it really took off. A lot of people may not have held it that long.
 
233nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Sun, Apr 02, 2006, 16:56


the first 15 months, it didn't do too much, and then it really took off. A lot of people may not have held it that long.

There were some "problems" at the start of the rebuilding that kept the stock in check. Namely Haliburton was caught getting awarded non bid contracts. They were also caught with questionable over charges and it became a national news story. In fact they wound up having to give some of the over charges back and it all came out in a very public way.

For a while there was uncertainty about how these charges would be handled and it spook-ed the stock.

Also Haliburton earns it's money rebuilding countries that have been blown up by the USA. It took a while to work through the bombing and then for stock buyers to realize that Bush was willing to drive up the US deficit to nose bleed levels and borrow from your children to rebuild Iraq.


The Army Corps of Engineers' top civilian contracting official, Bunnatine H. Greenhouse, was demoted in August after blowing the whistle on the Corps and Halliburton. "I can unequivocally state that the abuse related to contracts awarded to [Halliburton] represents the most blatant and improper contract abuse I have witnessed during the course of my professional career," Greenhouse said.
 
234nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Sun, Apr 02, 2006, 17:05

If I had known it was going to go up 250%, I would have bought it. I just didn't think of it

How could you not think of it?

The VP was the former CEO of the company and made 20 mil a year working for them.

The company makes most of it's money rebuilding war torn countries.

Their former CEO, as Vice President, helps convince the President to invade and bomb Iraq.

Who do you think is going to make the money rebuilding?

At the risk of sounding rude...duh.

Perhaps the most amazing part is that even though they have been caught and fined for overcharging, they continue to get the lion share of your children's future tax money.

 
235The Treasonists
      ID: 571192610
      Sun, Apr 02, 2006, 19:37
I bow to your stock-picking ability.
 
236Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Sun, Apr 02, 2006, 23:06
Who do you think is going to make the money rebuilding?

Blackwater Security and similar companies(remember Custer Battles?).

So much of the reduilding money has gone to provide security, that the entire Iraqi reconstruction effort can honestly be called a huge failure.
When the current allotment runs out in a few months, there will be no further funding for infrastructure, and why should we throw good money after bad?

Not to fear, though, Halliburton stockholders hungering for growth.
The permanent bases that we're spending billions to build will need services for decades, or at least as long as Congress is willing to fund them.
There's always the hope that we can destroy and then half-ass rebuild Iran as well.

 
237ukula
      ID: 50347319
      Mon, Apr 03, 2006, 21:50
Looks like another nutjob/whackjob, tinfoil hat wearing, wide-eyed, conspiracy nutbag has surfaced. First we have Charlie Sheen, then Ed Asner. When can we get someone with more credibility?

Another Nutbag
 
238Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Mon, Apr 03, 2006, 23:40
Nice find.
 
239nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Tue, Apr 04, 2006, 02:04

Of course if the conspiracy explodes, and hits the main stream, I'm on record here as saying the real conspiracy is that it was meant to be discovered...8-}


cheers

nerveclinic

 
240Boldwin
      ID: 49626249
      Tue, Apr 04, 2006, 07:09
I disagree Nerve. I think they have unlimited confidence that they can zoom the sheep forever.

[take a guess how long it would take PD to see it 8]

They'll sooner rather than later manage to tax, censor and control the internet just in case tho.
 
241ukula
      ID: 4832848
      Tue, Apr 04, 2006, 10:59
Control the internet? hmmmm......

America's War on the Web


Does anyone see a correlation between Nazi Germany under Hitler and the United States under GW Bush?

Joseph Goebbels - Nazi Propaganda Minister under Hitler(from Wikipedia):

Goebbels began to clamp down on all forms of artistic expression, banishing Jewish writers, journalists and artists from Germany's cultural life. He took control of the news media, making sure that it presented Germany's domestic and foreign policy aims as in terms of Nazi ideology.

The Goebbels technique, also known as argumentum ad nauseam, is the name given to a policy of repeating a lie until it is taken to be the truth.


Hitler wrote in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf (James Murphy translation, page 134):

All this was inspired by the principle - which is quite true in itself - that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes. ...
 
242biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Tue, Apr 04, 2006, 11:00
Bush isn't Hitler. He isn't as crazy, he isn't as smart and he isn't as pretty.
 
243Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Sat, Apr 15, 2006, 00:23
This circus of a show trial for
Moussaoui really shows the government's penchant for propoganda.

The emotional parade of victim's families and released cockpit tapes do nothing to expose the myriad indiscrepancies that are rampant with the official version of the attacks.

Most curious, but never questioned by the media, is the daily feed like this from today's AP story.

written testimony from Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed asserting that Moussaoui was never part of the 9/11 plans but was instead to be in a second wave of attacks.

This brings up two very important questions.

First, there has never been any independent verification that Sheikh Mohammed was ever captured. Any written testimony has never been collaborated by any independent source. The effectiveness of the methods has never been questioned, bringing in the possibility of torture, known to be a questionable way to achieve honest results.

Second, why is the government wasting all this time and energy on a 9/11 show trial with an obvious flunky who was in jail on 9/11, when we have the mastermind of the attacks in custody?
 
244ukula
      ID: 20336189
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 11:44
Your second question is a very good one.........
 
245Boxman
      ID: 46333184
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 11:56
Ukula: "Your second question is a very good one........."

Debatable yet good point at the same time.

Here's why.

Pancho: "Second, why is the government wasting all this time and energy on a 9/11 show trial with an obvious flunky who was in jail on 9/11, when we have the mastermind of the attacks in custody?"

So that way the government can somehow say with a straight face (even I ain't buyin' it) that they are doing something. The "mastermind" is a 6+ foot Arab, uses a cane to walk, is in the mountains, but yet the world's lone superpower cannot find him. Clinton could've done blown him up years ago and W let him walk during Tora Bora. Our past couple Presidents must have fear of success.

However, we have the real "mastermind" in custody. Sounds like a bad salesman's technique. BS.

Oh to have a stupid government employee for a parent. I could hide a case of Bud Light right under their noses in my bedroom, next to my Playboy collection, all the while renting adult videos and they wouldn't even know it despite them seeing the Comcast statement.

Our handling of the 9/11 aftermath gets more embarassing by the day.

I found your first question intriguing Pancho, "First, there has never been any independent verification that Sheikh Mohammed was ever captured. Any written testimony has never been collaborated by any independent source. The effectiveness of the methods has never been questioned, bringing in the possibility of torture, known to be a questionable way to achieve honest results."

We know who this man is so there is no debate on that front about what he allegedly does or didn't do. In his case specifically, coerce(cs) information according to the GC, but afterwards, snip off fingers and toes every other day for all I care. I'm not interested in providing mercy to those that helped execute the 9/11 attacks. I want Bin Laden and his crew paraded thru lower Manhattan so that the people can spit, urinate, or deficate on their pigs blood coated bodies as they walk down the streets in shakles. I'd have a Rabbi bless them before the public, brutal, executions to follow, complete with heads on pikes on top of the Empire State building.
 
246The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 13:41
In any event, some hard evidence has surfaced during the Moussaoui trials. This is in a case where there is no discovery process primarily due to the Victim's Compensation Fund.

1. A tape of Atta telling passengers he has a bomb and they are taking over the plane. I just heard this on the news, and do not have a transcript or internet version.

2. A recording of the final events during Flight 93. This was played in court and there is a transcript available on the internet.

Neither tape has been made available for any type of analysis. I don't know if they compared Atta's voice to a known sample of his voice. Or if the person who heard this tape live was there to testify.

The Flight 93 tape will not be released due to concerns from the families. However, it is apparently OK, to release a transcript. Not sure what the big difference is.

I also don't know if Moussaoui's lawyers attempted to discover the Pentagon tapes from the hotel and gas station that were immediately confiscated by the FBI. Or any camera's from the Pentagon that would provide evidence that Moussaoui's buddies hi-jacked a 757 and flew it into the Pentagon.
 
247ukula
      ID: 503571811
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 14:36
I personally think that Moussaoui is a patsy (Oswald) and that they have to blame someone (McVeigh).

It's obvious the whole flight 93 story was made up. They know the public eats up the "hero" stories (Jessica Lynch, Pat Tillman) so here we have the "Let's Roll" fable. How come no one questions why there is no wreckage of flight 93 on the ground - just a smoldering black hole. Oh wait, I forgot, it must have vaporized like flight 77 did when it entered the Pentagon in a "liquid state". How come the debris field for flight 93 was 8 miles wide if it just crashed straight into the ground? Why did it take 4 years to clean up the accident site?

The American public's opinion can be molded like clay with a few timely news stories.

How come four planes crashed on 9/11 yet there is no wreckage from any of them? The WTC planes were pulverized into dust, the Pentagon plane vaporized, and the PA plane apparently disappeared somehow. That's an amazing coincidence x 4.

Has anyone seen the recent documentary "Why We Fight"? I've only seen the trailer but can't wait to see the entire film. Rather eerie when listening to Eisenhower's farewell address to the nation in 1961. He's basically warning us about the current military/political situation we're in right now.



Documentary website
 
248Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 14:40
Actually, there was plenty of wreckage found from Flight 93 found, strewn over about 8 miles of ground. In fact, some of your buddy conspiracy theorists use the found Flight 93 wreckage to try to discount the "official versions." Trying to have it both ways are you?

As for the WTC wreckage, we've certainly been over this before. No need to hash that out again.
 
249Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 14:50
How come four planes crashed on 9/11 yet there is no wreckage from any of them?

I wasn't aware that anyone denied that planes hit the WTC.

Aside from the numerous home video tapes that have surfaced, the second plane hit on live national television. I also have two close friends who personally witnessed the second plane hit the WTC.
 
250The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 15:03
There is no way that Flight 93 wreckage could be strewn over an 8 mile area without blowing up in the air. It could not have crashed into the ground and have pieces bounce that far. Yet, this is the official explanation and has been verified by the crack 911 Commission. One would think that a reporter with Big Media would have questioned this.
 
251biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 15:03
I also have a friend who watched the 2nd hit live from his roof in Brooklyn Heights.
 
252Boxman
      ID: 46333184
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 15:07
Not sure if this belongs in this particular thread, but has anyone seen the trailer for the 9/11 movie coming out?

It is the most patronizing thing I have ever seen. The tag line paraphrasically reads something like, "On 9/11/01, four planes were hijacked, three hit their targets. This is the story of the fourth."

You don't say? That's what happened on 9/11? Could've fooled me.
 
253ukula
      ID: 503571811
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 15:16
pd - You're right. The "Official Story" conspiracy theory about Muslims with boxcutters has been thoroughly debunked in previous threads so there's no reason to keep beating a dead horse. Not too many people believe the "Official Story" anymore so I think we can move on now....

MITH - When did I ever say that two planes didn't hit the WTC? What planes they were is a different question. Unfortunately any remains from them were pulverized when they blew up the towers, oops, I mean when jet fuel poured down the elevator shafts and ignited all of the extremely flammable computers and printers causing massive explosions throughout the building which ultimately caused the building to pancake at the speed of gravity. The biggest piece of office debris found at the site was the size of a credit card, BUT they did find Mohammed Atta's id card which fell harmlessly through the destruction unscathed. Any good terrorist knows that you must carry your id card when flying a jetliner into a building. It's one of the first things they teach you at terrorism school. The 3,000 people who died in the towers unfortunately didn't carry their id cards and thus had to be identified with DNA testing.



 
254Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 15:28
When did I ever say that two planes didn't hit the WTC?

Your question, which I italicized in post 249, certainly seemed to imply just that. If that's not what you meant, so be it.


Treasonists
There is no way that Flight 93 wreckage could be strewn over an 8 mile area without blowing up in the air.

How do you know that?

Sibir Airlines Tupolev Tu-154 fell near Rostov-on-Don, scattering wreckage over a 25-mile circle.

the aircraft had bounced after hitting the ground, spreading wreckage over six areas over 10 miles.

A McDonnell Douglas DC10 of THY Turkish Airlines crashes into forests North of Paris, killing all 346 people on board. in the world's worst air disaster to date. The crash spread wreckage over a 7 mile radius.
 
255The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 16:54
The first two that you site DID blow up in the air. The 3rd one does not give a cause. Common sense will tell you that stuff doesn't bounce 8 miles. The only remotely possible way is if it came in mostly horizontal and spread stuff over a large area. The explanation for Flight 93 was that it came in vertical and left the smoldering pile you see on TV, lacking any visible airplane parts.
 
256Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 17:11
I recall seeing an aerial shot of the crash, with a large black crater and wreckage all over the place.
 
257The Treasonists
      ID: 571192610
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 19:37
Did you see any visible airplane parts from this large 757?

It looks like Flight 93 was shot down by Major Rick Gibney with the Happy Hooligans. see here
 
258Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 20:01
The argument of whether it was shot down or not is different from the argument of what happened to the parts of the airplane. No one has argued against the possibility of Flight 93 (several of us, however, have argued against the notion that there was no wreckage).
 
259sarge33rd
      ID: 2511422414
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 22:27
half baked whackos going off on a topic in which they lack expertise, while wuoting questionable statements by self proclaimed experts. (The text book definition of a conspiracy theorist IMHO)

4 planes were hijacked.

2 hit the WTC
1 hit the Pentagon
1 crashed in the ground in PA.

2+1+1=4.

All accounted for SIR!
 
260ukula
      ID: 593161821
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 23:19
sarge = sheep

"Don't believe in outrageous conspiracy theories...." - George W Bush
 
261Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 23:32
Easier to attack sarge than back down from your ridiculous "How come four planes crashed on 9/11 yet there is no wreckage from any of them?" comment?

Sometimes your "openmindedness" makes you sound like an idiot that cannot settle even upon one single fact, lest you get tied down.
 
262nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 23:43


Boxman I could hide a case of Bud Light right under their noses in my bedroom, next to my Playboy collection, all the while renting adult videos and they wouldn't even know it despite them seeing the Comcast statement.

Dang, that's how I got caught, it was the Comcast bill....Doh

 
263nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 23:47

PD : Actually, there was plenty of wreckage found from Flight 93 found, strewn over about 8 miles of ground. In fact, some of your buddy conspiracy theorists use the found Flight 93 wreckage to try to discount the "official versions." Trying to have it both ways are you?


I think the argument is that we have seen tens of plane crashes and there is typically a certain amount of wreckage in these cases. Both the Pentagon plane and Flight 93 seem to be very different in that there is far less wreckage then in other, past, similar wreck-ages.

Neither accident site, "looks right".

 
264Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 23:57
Well, I think you might be right, nerve. Part of the Flight 93 wreckage displacement can be explained by the angle of descent, but we don't have the data, really.

The point of my rebuttal was to detroy ukula's point that there was no wreckage at all from any of the four planes. We might not be able to come to an agreement on the hows and whys of the crashes (though my thoughts on Flight 93 were expressed elsewhere and need not be repeated). But for ukula to state that there was no wreckage is just silly.
 
265ukula
      ID: 593161821
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 00:09
I think we should all just listen to our fearless leader and maybe the big, bad men will all go away......

GW Bush's address to the UN 11/10/2001
 
266Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 00:11
Did he also claim there was no wreckage to be found?
 
267ukula
      ID: 593161821
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 00:27
The fact that Bush went in front of the UN and told people not to tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories a MONTH after 9/11 strikes me as quite odd. It doesn't prove anything one way or the other, but it definitely falls under the category of "Strange Behavior". Why would he do this?

pd - repeat after me,

"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories."

"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories."

"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories."

"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories."



 
268Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 00:44
You can run from your statements, but you can't hide, ukula. Still think there was no wreckage to be found for any of the planes? Or are you still struggling so hard to keep your mind open that grasping a single fact is beyond your scope?
 
269nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 01:42

PD In all of the photos of the Pentagon there is no plane wreckage to be seen. Strange.

The government confiscated the tapes from surrounding businesses and has apparently not allowed the American people to see them.

I still b elieve it was very possible it was a plane, but it's certainly fair to ask that questions be answered. Let's see the video.

To imply that Ukala has been over zealous on a few points in your mind does not answer the myriad of questions that have been posed in this thread and starts to look like a deflection of the reasonable debate.

There's still no logical explanation for what appeared to be a controlled demolition that took just over 6 seconds of the 3rd WTC building that was not hit by a plane.

If you have a logical explanation let's hear it.

 
270Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 01:49
nerve, in response to ukula's factual error, he simply asks us to repeat Bush's phrase. As if repeating the phrase will itself deflect from his own factual error.

Now, looking at evidence and weighing the reasonableness of things (as we all do, yourself included) has no meaning if the point of it is not to actually agree to even very elementary facts. ukula isn't interested in any answers, only in posing questions to demonstrate some sort of open-mindedness.

It's not about zealousness. It's about even a simple factual acknowledgement. It's the difference between saying "this doesn't look right" and "no Jews died at the WTC."

We know which side of that difference you are on. I'm not convinced that ukula is your brother-in-arms simply because he tries to ape questions.
 
271nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 02:04


Understood PD. I haven't followed the arguement closely enough to know all the issues.
 
272nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 02:07


Ukla BUT they did find Mohammed Atta's id card which fell harmlessly through the destruction unscathed. Any good terrorist knows that you must carry your id card when flying a jetliner into a building. It's one of the first things they teach you at terrorism school. The 3,000 people who died in the towers unfortunately didn't carry their id cards and thus had to be identified with DNA testing.

This to me is one of the most glaring "set-ups" if there was a conspiracy. How is it so much of the building was destroyed but "How doe it happen" they find the ID card...if that doesn't smeel of a rat I don't know what does.

Is it logical to you PD...Sarge?

I don't think it's strange he carried his ID...Needed it to get on the plane. Just strange it's one of the few things they found...actually it defies logic like so much of the evidence.

 
273Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 02:12
It is strange. But I don't believe that the ID card alone was what was used to finger Atta as being on that flight. Isn't there also a video image of him in Boston, getting on the flight in question?

pd
 
274nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 02:59

It is strange. But I don't believe that the ID card alone was what was used to finger Atta as being on that flight. Isn't there also a video image of him in Boston, getting on the flight in question?

PD you are missing the point.

What's strange is that virtually the whole world trade center, the plane, etc was completely destroyed by the explosion and fire. Somehow though, it just so happens the accused hijackers ID survives the crash and is miraculously found.

Even if he was on the plane, (And I have never said he was not) what are the odds that one of the only things that would survive was the terrorists ID?

That question by itself might be explainable (like winning the lottery is explainable), but it's just one of many oddities that when looked at as a whole leave people scracthing their head about this event.

Believe me, there are lots of people starting to scratch their head.




 
275Boxman
      ID: 41324194
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 06:40
I will concede the finding of the ID card was probably a plant job. I can't find a chinese menu in my kitchen mystery drawer and these guys magically whip out the ID card of the pilot of one of the planes, the attack leader to boot, in all that wreckage which has been burning for days? Anyone ever burn a credit card? I wonder how long it takes for it to burn up.

We have some super smart stat people on these boards, I wonder what the odds are of finding it?

Parts of the 9/11 events confound me. I've read the 9/11 Commission Report and it reminds me of encountering a certain type of person at work. That type being the person who is in a corner and they have one of two choices, to admit they are stupid or to lie. Middle Eastern men paying cash for flight school. Atta given the nickname "Little Terrorist" and the list goes on and on. Nobody calls the cops? FBI?

I am in the process of reading Rebuilding America's Defenses: The Project For A New American Century. This document I kindly ask all of you to read. It's 90 pages, think of it as a short story. It was written in 2000, IIRC, and ask yourself if you see any of those goals coming to pass now.
 
276Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 4923198
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 07:29
Treasonists post 255
The first two that you site DID blow up in the air.

Unless you know something more about those cases that the info given in the links, those reports don't say that at all.
 
277sarge33rd
      ID: 2511422414
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 07:36
PD In all of the photos of the Pentagon there is no plane wreckage to be seen. Strange.

A factually erroneous statement. I recall clearly this sorum addressing this issue relatively soon after the event, and one of the links provided by this forum was to a series of photos. In those photos, landing gear and other large aircraft elements could be seen on the ground around the pentagon building.

I will concede the finding of the ID card was probably a plant job. I can't find a chinese menu in my kitchen mystery drawer and these guys magically whip out the ID card of the pilot of one of the planes, the attack leader to boot, in all that wreckage which has been burning for days? Anyone ever burn a credit card? I wonder how long it takes for it to burn up.

We have some super smart stat people on these boards, I wonder what the odds are of finding it?


Odd? Perhaps so. But the odds of its happening, are irrelevant. Truth is stranger than fiction, is a saying we are all familiar with. Its a saying, we have all seen born out, time and time again. Something was bound to survive the collission. I for one find it more amazing, that virually ALL the occupants of the two towers are not dead.

 
278ukula
      ID: 29314196
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 08:28
sarge - "I for one find it more amazing, that virually ALL the occupants of the two towers are not dead."

Huh? The planes hit the upper floors and the buildings lasted about an hour before they were brought down with explosives, so you don't think that is enough time to evacuate a large number of people from the towers? On the other hand, you think that the id of the head terrorist, who was in the initial fireball, landing safely in the pile of rubble is believable?

Who's the half baked whacko?
 
279Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 09:27
The WTC passport that survived was not the only "smoking gun" passport to survive a fiery crash that day.

Passport from Flight 93

He had a valid U.S. multiple-entry visa in his passport, a fragment of which was found at the Flight 93 crash site.

The passport wasn't the only find at the Flight 93 crash site. There was also a copy of the letter.


U.S. authorities found this letter handwritten in Arabic in the suitcase of Mohamed Atta. It includes Islamic prayers, instructions for a last night of life, and a practical checklist of reminders for the final operation. The FBI released an untranslated copy of the letter; the British newspaper The Observer published this translation. Additional copies of this letter were found at the crash site of United Airlines Flight 93 in Pennsylvania and at a Dulles International Airport parking lot in a car registered to one of the hijackers on American Flight 77.

Amazing discoveries, especially given the lack of wreckage at the
point of impact.
 
280Sludge
      ID: 14411118
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 09:30
We have some super smart stat people on these boards, I wonder what the odds are of finding it?

That's the improper question to ask. The proper question to ask is: What are the odds of finding something belonging to one of the 8 hijackers on one of the 2 planes?

If it had been a boxcutter, or a letter in Arabic, a ring with an engraving on it, a foot, a finger, or any other body part from any of the 8, we'd be having this same argument. (Except if it were a body part, the argument would center on how it looks like it was expertly amputated prior to the event, which the pre-existing rigor clearly shows.)

Where is the credible testimony or evidence that nothing from any of the other passengers on either plane that could be used to identify them was found on the streets surrounding the buildings? Someone can only answer the prior (restated) question by answering this one.
 
281nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 10:15


Sarge Odd? Perhaps so. But the odds of its happening, are irrelevant. Truth is stranger than fiction, is a saying we are all familiar with. Its a saying, we have all seen born out, time and time again.

Yeah and a sucker is born everyday is another saying that I like.

 
282nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 10:27


Here is a web site that buys into the conspiracy but believes that there are conspirators trying to make us "believe" that a missle hit the Pentagon when it was really the plane. They are implying it is to later make us look like fools and quiet down any discussion of conspiracy.

Remember earlier in the thread I said the video looked "too" slick, very professionally done?

For those questioning if it really was a plane, look at some of the evidence that this web site sites as evidence it was a plane and not a missle.

My thoughts on possible conspiracy have never counted on "no plane or no terroists".

Right now, government shills are working hard to trick web sites into running the claim that a passenger jet did not really hit the Pentagon.

This is an old intelligence trick called "Poisoning the well", the intentional promotion of lies to blend with an embarrassing truth to discredit it. The government shills are trying to conceal real news stories such as the Israeli Spy Ring and its connections to the attacks on the World Trade Towers. So, we get hoax stories poured onto the net by government propagandists, to be used by the media to attack the credibility of anyone who dares doubt the official story.



link

 
283The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 14:18
Re: #254 by Mattinglyinthehall

the aircraft had bounced after hitting the ground, spreading wreckage over six areas over 10 miles

This story is about PanAm Flight 103 that crashed near Lockerbie, Scotland. This was caused by an on-board bomb that exploded at 31,000 feet. This would explain why debris was spread over a 10 mile area. Thanks for proving my point. I'm not going to bother with the other two links.
 
284Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 428299
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 15:03
AH, wasn't aware that it was the Lockerbie flight. Fair enough. I'm not sure what point of yours my mistake "proves" or why it should make the other two links irrelevant. All I'm saying is that I'm not convinced that wreckage from an jetliner crash can't spread over an area of several miles. I do see now after reading the first link more carefully that it was a suspected bombing at the time of the writing. Do you know whether that was ever confirmed?

Regardless I only posted the first 3 that I found. Here's another:

Wreckage from the crash spread out over six miles
 
285The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 16:12
I'm not going to check them out. I think we're in agreement that a plane that explodes in the air will have a larger debris field than one that crashes into the ground.

Moving on....re: #273 by permdude

Isn't there also a video image of him in Boston, getting on the flight in question?

Actually, there were some blurry images released form the Portland, Maine airport of Atta and another guy. These are the ones shown repeatedly. This flight did not crash. In fact, they were late for this flight, and only made it because the plane took off late. Another oddity, in that they were lucky the plane took off late. Most people don't realize that two of the highjackers started their day in Portland, and connected in Boston where they had to go through security again. The 911 Commission had no explanation for this. They left their rental car in the Boston airport and rented another car and left that in the Portland airport, and left a trail of evidence in both cars. This whole Portland story can be googled if you're interested or you can wait for the New York Times to run a story.

No other airport images have been released of any of the other highjackers at any of the other airports. Although, it is reasonable to think that their were cameras in these airports. And that if they had some images, they would show them to support their case. The FBI claimed a camera in Boston was broken near the ticket counter, but the agent that worked there was not aware of it.

I originally thought it was far-fetched to believe any of this stuff, but the more I do my own research, the more I believe that things did not happen the way the official story goes. You can call me a whack job, if you want. I don't care. I'm just looking for reasonable explanations for some of these things, and Big Media is dropping the ball. The picture of the small whole in the Pentagon before the wall falls down, and the video of WTC7 dropping in 6 seconds was enough to get me started.
 
286nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 22:09

MITH Treasonist is making a good point, I checked the link in 284, guess you didn't, the crash took place in the ocean which would explain why the debris spread over several miles.


Wreckage from the crash spread out over six miles, and fishermen helping with the rescue effort said the smell of fuel was overwhelming. Bears said divers were using sonar to map the debris field and try to locate the black box -- which gives technical data on the flight -- in about 150 feet of water.


You really should bother reading at least the portion of the link that makes your point...because again it doesn't make your point.



 
287ukula
      ID: 593161821
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 22:09
You obviously wear a tinfoil hat. Where do you nutbags come up with this stuff? Why would the government do such a thing? I no longer tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories, they are vicious lies that take the focus away from the guilty, the terrorists. God Bless America! Support Our Troops!
 
288sarge33rd
      ID: 2511422414
      Wed, Apr 19, 2006, 23:20
Yeah and a sucker is born everyday is another saying that I like.

I could hardly agree with you more.
 
289ukula
      ID: 593161821
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 06:09
sarge - We must no longer tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories, they are vicious lies that take the focus away from the guilty, the terrorists. God Bless America! Support Our Troops!
 
290Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 4923198
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 07:38
Nerve and Treasonists

Okay fair enough. It seems that such a wide wreckage area is less likely than I believed.
 
291ukula
      ID: 1933207
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 09:15
MITH - Do NOT tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories, they are vicious lies that take the focus away from the guilty, the terrorists. God Bless America! Support Our Troops!

Flight 93 happened just like they said it did otherwise they wouldn't have made a movie about it - anyone who believes otherwise is just a half-baked whacko.
 
292Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 09:16
The FBI claimed a camera in Boston was broken near the ticket counter, but the agent that worked there was not aware of it.

This actually seems reasonable to me. Ticket counter personnel would have no idea if a particular security camera is working or not.

I don't know about the Portland connection, and since I don't know where those hijackers were staying at the time I'd really have to check it out. My initial thought is that if they came into the US just previous, they probably would want to come into the country at a weaker point (like Portland) than Boston or NYC which had better security. But that's just a top o'the head response.
 
293ukula
      ID: 1933207
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 10:13
That seems resonable to me too, especially if the camera was made in the U.S.!

Anyway, we have pictures of Atta and his associate going through security. If that wasn't actually Atta wouldn't the guy whose picture that really was stand up and say "Hey, that's not Atta! That's me!" I haven't heard anything - and the person at the ticket counter never said anything so it must have been Atta!

Also, they found terrorism manuals in his car. C'mon - there you have it - guily as charged.

I am so sick of these tinfoil hat conspiracy nutbag/whackjobs trying to pin this thing on the good ol' US government. This is the same administration that gave everyone a tax refund a few years back for no reason. Why would that same administration turn around and all of a sudden conspire to create Pearl Harbor II. It makes no sense! These conspiracy whacknuts are just plain unAmerican and are disgracing the memory of all the soldiers who gave their lives to get bin Laden, I mean find the WMDs, wait, I mean, get Sadaam, hold on, I mean fight for the freedom of the Iraqi people, ah let's just call it 'getting the terrorists'. It's a lot easier to just lump everything under the "War on Terror" umbrella than actually try to explain all the random killing. They know the govt has their best interests at heart, afterall they did give them that nice tax refund!

God Bless America! Support Our Troops!

 
294Sludge
      ID: 14411118
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 10:36
Know what else those tinfoil hats are good for, ukula? Deflecting.
 
295ukula
      ID: 1933207
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 10:58
Yeah! Rock the House! The conspiracy bungbags can't handle the truth. I think it's easier and more comforting to blame the government than to think that there are crazy terrorists out there that want to kill them. Wake Up! There are crazy cave dwellars out there that want to bring this country to its knees. These guys may not look like much with their tattered clothes, sandals, and scraggly facial hair, they may not have the pleasures of indoor plumbing at their disposal, and they still communicate by leaving occassional audio cassette tapes lying around, but we must listen to Donald Rumsfeld when he says "This is the most BRUTAL enemy we have ever faced!!" Hitler's Nazis were nothing compared to these roadside bombs! Crank up the war machine! The h*ll with social security - let's build tanks and rotate our stockpile of nuclear weapons. Our country must defeat this BRUTAL enemy for the sake of our children's future. Even God himself told Bush to kick the cr*p out of the terrorists in Afghanistan. God Bless the USA! Support Our Troops!
 
296Sludge
      ID: 14411118
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 11:04
That's a pretty good caricature you got going there, u. It's not exactly the one you're aiming for, but bravo nonetheless.
 
297ukula
      ID: 1933207
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 11:26
sludge - I have no hidden motives, I just will not tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories that take the focus off of the true evil, the terrorists. This is the most BRUTAL enemy this country has ever faced and we need to band together, buy our 'Support Our Troops' magnets (made in China) and place them on our SUVs. You think $3 a gallon for gas is high, wait until Iran threatens our freedoms and we see $5 a gallon. Maybe then these conspiracy windbags will put away their tinfoil hats and get behind this administration that is doing everything in its power (and even a few things not legally within its power) to defend our freedoms. God Bless America! Support Our Troops!
 
298ukula
      ID: 1933207
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 11:37
Here is a question for all those conspiracy beefnuts: Why would God tell Bush to invade Iraq and Afghanistan is he thought/knew that 9/11 was an inside job? It makes no sense! God doesn't authorize random killing unless there is a good reason! These conspiracy bungsurfers make we want to vomit.

God talks to Bush
 
299Sludge
      ID: 11042612
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 11:57
In that last post, you forgot "God Bless America! Support Our Troops!"
 
300ukula
      ID: 30322010
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 12:03
God told me not to put in in that last message.
 
301Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 12:54
Well, as long as it was God and not Allah or Yahweh I guess you're OK.
 
302sarge33rd
      ID: 2511422414
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 13:30
I'm just relieved to hear that Al Gore is being blamed for that too.
 
303Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 13:37
God told me not to put in in that last message.

you and HBK. both in tight with the Big Guy...who, btw, will be making his PPV debut in just 10 days...

he was supposed to debut on Raw on Monday night, but apparently Vince McMahon had an epiphany, and now God will NOT be debuting monday night. guess we gotta wait for the PPV...

not holding my breath though...he's no-showed for a couple thousand years already, what's another night...
 
304Wilmer McLean
      ID: 15441611
      Fri, May 12, 2006, 04:42
RE: 226



* West Texas Intermediate in constant (July, 2005) U.S. dollars. SOURCES: Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, and Bureau of Labor Statistics.

------------------------------------------------

(I couldn't get the chart to appear from the link below.)

Oil prices 2004-2006 (not adjusted for inflation)

-----------------------------------------------

Halliburton boosted by oil work Tuesday, 25 October 2005

Oilfield services conglomerate Halliburton says increased global oil and gas exploration boosted its profitability in the third quarter.

Reporting its results for the three months to the end of September, it made a net profit of $499m (£281m).

But...

In the third quarter of 2004, Halliburton reported a $42m loss, although this figure was hit by a one-off $230m payment to settle asbestos charges.

-----------------------------------------------

I'm not attacking or defending, just adding more facts. I wonder if there is a chart with prices of both Haliburton stock and oil.

-----------------------------------------------

(An aside: Didn't Bush visit India not too recently?)

Halliburton in Indian output deal Wednesday, 10 May 2006

India's state-run oil company ONGC has employed the help of US oilfield services giant Halliburton to enable it to raise output from a trio of fields.

In a statement, ONGC said oilfield services company Halliburton wanted to expand its operations in India.

ONGC, India's most valuable company and largest oil producer, said the move would boost output from Lakwa, Lakhmani and Geleki fields in Assam state.

"More fields may be added in future," it said.
 
305Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 16, 2006, 11:39
This is huge
Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, announced today that it filed a lawsuit on February 22, 2006 against the Department of Defense to force the release of a video that allegedly shows United Flight 77 striking the Pentagon on September 11, 2001. Judicial Watch seeks the information in part to help put to rest conspiracy theories that a government drone or missile hit the Pentagon rather than the hijacked United airplane.
 
306Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 16, 2006, 11:56
My mistake, that isn't today's press release. I can't find it on line, but we received it here in the newsroom. Here's some of it:
May 16, 2006

Judicial Watch to Obtain September 11 Pentagon Video at 1 p.m. Today

Department of Defense Responds to Judicial Watch Freedom of Information Act Request and Related Lawsuit

(Washington, DC) Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, announced today that Department of Defense will release a videotape to Judicial Watch at 1:00 p.m. this afternoon that allegedly shows American Airlines Flight 77 striking the Pentagon on September 11, 2001. The Department of Defense is releasing the videotape in response to a Judicial Watch Freedom of Information Act request and related lawsuit.
Also I'm told now that this video may have already been released shortly after the attack. I don't recall video of the plane hitting the pentagon but its definitely possible that I've forgotten, especially if it wasn't very clear.

But if it was previously released, it seems strange that a Freedom of Information Act request and lawsuit would be necessary to obtain it.
 
307Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 16, 2006, 12:11
Here is the complete release.
 
308The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, May 16, 2006, 13:01
From the release:

"Judicial Watch originally filed a Freedom of Information Act request on December 15, 2004, seeking all records pertaining to September 11, 2001 camera recordings of the Pentagon attack from the Sheraton National Hotel, the Nexcomm/Citgo gas station, Pentagon security cameras and the Virginia Department of Transportation. The Department of Defense admitted in a January 26, 2005 letter that it possessed a videotape responsive to Judicial Watch’s request. However, the Pentagon refused to release the videotape because it was, “part of an ongoing investigation involving Zacarias Moussaoui.” Judicial Watch filed a lawsuit on February 22, 2006 arguing that there was “no legal basis” for the Defense Department’s refusal to release the tape."

Sounds like DOD has one videotape, although the FOIA request was for multiple tapes. This should be interesting.

 
309biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, May 16, 2006, 13:25
My prediction is this is a set up to discredit conspiracy theorists so noone will believe them spouting off about the true, deeper conspiracies.
 
310Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 16, 2006, 13:46
Its airing now on FOX. Its video that I've already seen linked at this forum.
 
311Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 16, 2006, 13:48
Bili I don't think that's too likely an objective, even if you're right in that it works out that way. The DOD released it after Judicial Watch made a FOIA requests.
 
312The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, May 16, 2006, 16:10
Anybody can clearly see that it was a Boeing 757 hitting the Pentagon. I think I saw a couple guys with boxcutters, too when it flashed by.
 
313Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, May 16, 2006, 16:14
It looked like Hilary Clinton. If you squint a little.
 
314The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, May 16, 2006, 16:33
"However, the Pentagon refused to release the videotape because it was, “part of an ongoing investigation involving Zacarias Moussaoui.”"

If the jury had seen that video, old Zacarias would have been in big trouble. It was OK for the jury to see planes fly into the WTC, but this video would have just been too much for the jury to take.

 
315The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, May 16, 2006, 16:42
Also, I've noticed, if you slow it down to just the right speed; you can see Barbara Olson's cell phone come flying out of her hand. And also, one of the terrorists passports comes flying out of his pocket. This finally explains how it was later found in the burning debris.
 
316nerveclinic
      ID: 512501920
      Wed, May 17, 2006, 21:51
It's funny it's really hard to see much of anything in the video.
 
317ukula
      ID: 84121810
      Thu, May 18, 2006, 11:18
An obvious Boeing 757

I think it's pretty apparent that it was a Boeing that crashed into the Pentagon.
 
318bibA
      Sustainer
      ID: 261028117
      Thu, May 18, 2006, 16:21
Why do you say that ukula, because the gov't could have doctored tapes, but did not do so? Thus proving a negative?
 
319Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, May 18, 2006, 17:09
ukula believes, I think, that everything coming from the government is intended to distort the "truth."
 
320Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Thu, May 18, 2006, 19:17
#318...

If there ever is an independent investigation of the 9/11 attacks, resulting in a court case, all evidence will have to be provided to the court for scrutiny and verification.

A falsified tape provided by the government is obvious evidence of an official cover-up. Better to provide a tape that shows nothing than a falsified one.

In the case of the Bin Laden tape found in Afghanistan in December 2001, it can always be explained that the government found the tape, and there is no evidence as to who produced it. That would be more difficult with a government produced tape.
 
321Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Wed, Aug 02, 2006, 22:50
Pancho, ukula, and nerve, you've done good! More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East.

The poll also found that 16 percent of Americans speculate that secretly planted explosives, not burning passenger jets, were the real reason the massive twin towers of the World Trade Center collapsed. Twelve percent suspect the Pentagon was struck by a military cruise missile in 2001 rather than by an airliner captured by terrorists.
 
322Boldwin
      ID: 46651516
      Thu, Aug 03, 2006, 12:32
Where are my props?
 
323Boldwin
      ID: 46651516
      Thu, Aug 03, 2006, 12:41
Sarge=sheep - Ukula

Don't be so sure Sarge doesn't know better. He's the wolf possibly
 
324nerveclinic
      ID: 10526140
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 00:30

So who has the skull and bones book anyway?

For the record I am still not convinced a missle hit the pentagon.

 
325Motley Crue
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 08:14
I hear that 12% of the population still thinks 8 spiders per year crawl down their throats and die while they're sleeping, too.

It's time like this I wish this message board had cool emoticons. I'd pull out the closest one to a "jackass" available. Or maybe some neat *braying* sounds.
 
326Boxman
      ID: 45742110
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 08:55
Did someone request a "jackass"? Well far be it from me to let that request go unheard.



Just curious, MC, have you taken an objective look at 9/11 conspiracy theories? I know some of the ideas (namely a missile hitting the Pentagon) are a little "out there", but the perfect inward collapsing of both towers merits investigation, IMO.
 
327Motley Crue
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 09:07
Yes, it's been investigated by those at this very board with the desire and drive to do so to no end. Unlike them, however, I bask in my role as Government Lackey and plan to march lockstep right off the cliffs with the rest of the lemmings.

It's good to be king.
 
328Boxman
      ID: 45742110
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 09:16
An honest answer. Refreshing.
 
330katietx
      ID: 10737412
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 13:38
I'm no prude by any means, but Jag you comments are somewhat beyond the pale.

Perm - can you do something??
 
331Jag
      ID: 14849321
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 13:45
Done
 
332Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 13:51
I won't go so far as to say that I think the government committed 9/11 but there are clearly some blatent unanswered questions about what happened that day.

There is no doubt that caertain truths are being kept from the public regarding the September 11th.

So before you go throwing around unsolicited (and graphic) insults, you might attempt to display enough of an open mind to at least consider some of these discrepencies.

If you haven't seen it, I reccommend you put aside 90 min and check out Loose Change.
 
333Motley Crue
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 13:59
There is no doubt that caertain truths are being kept from the public regarding the September 11th.

That applies to anything the government has a hand in, I'm fairly sure. There are two kinds of secrets, for the most part.

1. Those that are secret because they would create national security weaknesses and deficiencies if revealed.

2. Those that are secret because they would embarrass government officials.

I think the kind that fall under #1 are probably rampant in the case of 9/11. And I find it acceptable that the public is not made aware of them.

I suppose that you believe there are many that fall under category #2, MITH.
 
334Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 14:13
All I know is that there are a lot of unanswered questions that lead me to believe something is fishy. I won't commit myself to anything beyond that.
 
335Motley Crue
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 14:25
Well, I'd speculate that a few agencies or individuals would take quite a lot of heat (ala Brownie the FEMA Boss) if information on everything that happened was unleashed to all of us.

I'm sure there were some mistakes made leading up to 9/11. I'm sure some tips were ignored or not investigated thoroughly. I'm sure there were some mistakes made after the attacks, in the immediate aftermath. I don't mind them trying to keep that stuff quiet so much, because as terrible as it is that so many lives were lost, 9/11 certainly could not have been avoided. As long as the Governement holds those who f'ed up responsible.

I think it's pretty shallow and paranoid, however, to accuse the American government of complicity in any case. Maybe ignorance, maybe negligence, and hell, maybe even stupidity. But I'm reading people's accusations that buildings were rigged for demolition before the planes crashed into them, and that the military fired a missile at the Pentagon. These assertions do not pass any kind of common sense test. Forget all of your arguments from the technical standpoint. You don't have proper measurements of all of the temperatures, weights/masses, air speeds, and whatever else you'd need to make those calculations. Just use your brain for a minute. Common sense is all it takes to see that the Federal Government was no more involved (as in, they played an active role or passively allowed it to occur) with the 9/11 attacks than was Superman or Santa Claus.

Just a little exercise of the grey matter.
 
336Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 14:28
Yeah thats the way I felt when I first started seeing this stuff, too.
 
337Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 14:37
Post 20 in this thread for example refers to one of the issues that really bothers me.
 
338Perm Dude
      ID: 3872348
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 14:45
I think we have to keep in mind that the conspiracy buffs tend to point out a number of small instances of apparent inconsistencies or gaps, then insist that these are deliberate and connected simply as a result of existing as such.

Are there going to be outstanding questions? Absolutely. But starting from the point of asking questions is different from the point of assuming the government knowingly did it all and covered it all up.
 
339The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 15:08
Look at the video of WTC Building 7 collapsing.
Look at the video of a known controlled demolition. My brain is telling me they look the same.
 
340Boldwin
      ID: 46651516
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 15:13
I think we need to keep in mind that...

1) the sinking of the Maine was a manufactured casus Beli...

2) Pearl Harbor happened despite advance warning...

3) 'Big Thinkers' within government are well aware of the reluctance of democracies to enter wars and plan around that 'natural weakness' with this form of government as the Northwood Papers reveal...

4) Neocons who wrote the 'Project for a New American Century' were quite vocal about how 'wonderful it would be' if America were to be blessed with a casus beli allowing them to begin their project to reshape the middle east...

5) American informants planted within the conspiracy that resulted in the first Trade center bombing as well as the other conspiracy resulting in the Murrah Building bombing both had informed the government of those plans and they were aparently allowed to continue to completion...

But then if you still want to make excuses for glaring holes in the 'official version of events' you are certifiably in Permdudes league of coincidence theorists, ostriches and extraordinary shee...er...gentlemen.

 
341Perm Dude
      ID: 3872348
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 15:18
Treasonists, I've seen the videos. I've commented at length here and elsewhere. I'm unconvinced except to believe that some of the "evidence" is weighed as being likely simply because it refutes the "official version" while other "evidence" is discarded out of hand for being unlikely.

Some people, even on these boards, continue to believe that the more they refute the "official version" of things the more of a free thinker they become. These people continue to have a bias problem and will never get at the truth so long as they continue to insist that the problem is both anything other than the "official version" and that there is a coverup about the whole thing of which they are privy.
 
342Motley Crue
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 15:30
Oh God. I need to stay away from this thread. All it takes is one post like [340] or whatever the next thing nerveclinic posts and this whole thread will explode. And that's not something I have time for in the middle of fantasy football drafting season, frankly.
 
343Boldwin
      ID: 46651516
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 15:55
You are excused to do your draft prep. A man has to have priorities.
 
344boikin
      ID: 400291013
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 16:41
i usually agree with MC to stay away from here and prep for fantasy basketball, but the northwood papers where a good read though i had seen most of it before. I just wanted to commit on the conspricay here. i have seen and read most of the arguments at some piont and remeber that they make a pretty weak argument. with that said it has bothered me as to why there are not video tapes or pictures of the plane flying low into pentagon as it was reported that it flew low following the interstate? It reminds me other patterns i have seen in 'cover up' stories and that is that the government hides information usually information that is not important but still explains the complete flow events. the lack of governmental disclosure then leads to idea there was a 'cover up' then later on after public pressure the information is released and to everyones surprise there was not 'cover up', but becuase it took so long to release the information the rumors of 'cover up' are hard to crush. If there is conspriacy it is in the governments reasoning on why they like to start the illusion of 'cover ups'.
 
345Boldwin
      ID: 46651516
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 18:55
I see, conspiracy theories are all a government conspiracy theory. I almost like it.

In actuality however the government's true feeling regarding conspiracy theory was revealed by Abe Lincoln in a reverse revelation...
One of President Abe Lincoln's most memorable statements about the government of the United States was to the effect that it is able to fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but that it can't hope to fool all of the people all of the time.
The ones whom you can't fool you just call conspiracy theorists. So what if a small percentage see behind the curtain? Just ignore and/or insult them.
One of the most depressing aspects of the situation in America today is the extent to which the government and the controlled media, collaborating with one another, are able to deceive most of the people all the time. In fact, if Lincoln were making his observation about deceiving people today, it would sound something like this: "The government can't fool all of the people all the time, but in a democracy that's not necessary. In a democracy all the government has to do is fool most of the people most of the time, and if the controlled media and the government are working together that's easy."

 
346nerveclinic
      ID: 10526140
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 20:22
PD These people continue to have a bias problem

Your so G.D. polite I can't really tell what or who you're talking about.

There's a wide range of beliefs on this subject from a varied group of people. Who are you talking about and what is the specific bias?

Is someone biased just because they don't always believe the approved and sanctioned few of history that you take lock, stock and barral?

PD why do you think building WTC building 7 which was never hit by a plane, and just happened to house Fed agencies and records, appears to have collapsed exactly like a controled demolition would.

I'm not talking about the Twin towers, I'm talking about building 7.

Honestly though, having read years of your posts, I just don't think you have the capacity to think that there are men who would be involved in this, even if you were given iron clad proof.

If I was involved in a conspiracy, I'd want you on my jury.
 
347nerveclinic
      ID: 10526140
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 20:27

MC

Why is it so upsetting to you, so hand wringing, panty tightening upsetting to you that not everyone buys the sanctioned view of history?

I understand you don't buy it, but why all the pouting?

Do you believe the government purposely allowed blacks with syphilis go untreated just to see what would happen?

That's a conspiracy. It happened and the government admits it.

 
348Motley Crue
      ID: 2192327
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 20:36
Heh, yeah. Is that supposed to be a good example that it happens all of the time?

Because it's not a good example. Not to me.

It's OK with me that you don't accept my views of history. I will admit that it's the way you try to persuade the rest of us to see it your way that is somewhat annoying to me. I need to learn to take a deep breath and realize that all of the other tight-panty-wearing big boys here know how to make up their own minds. It's difficult, I'll admit. I'm not really built that way--to just let things go. But once in a while (like now) I think I can do it.

As I said, fantasy football beckons. It beckons me like your paranoia seduces you, nerve.

A man's got to have his priorities, as a wise individual once said.
 
349nerveclinic
      ID: 10526140
      Fri, Aug 04, 2006, 21:00

I will admit that it's the way you try to persuade the rest of us to see it your way that is somewhat annoying to me.

I helped start this political forum. Since it's conception, it's always been about trying to persuade others about our individual political beliefs. I just happen to take the view that politics are to a degree manipulated behind the curtain.


 
350boikin
      ID: 400291013
      Tue, Aug 08, 2006, 15:06
ah it never ends
 
351Perm Dude
      ID: 37879
      Tue, Aug 08, 2006, 15:10
Maybe they can share office space with the Institute for Creation Research.
 
352Motley Crue
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Tue, Aug 08, 2006, 15:57
The organization says publicity over Barrett's case has helped boost membership to about 75 academics. They are a tiny minority of the 1 million part- and full-time faculty nationwide, and some have no university affiliation. Most aren't experts in relevant fields. -- from the linked story in [350].

Heh. Wow. 75 out of 1 million. I wonder if any of them
eat bread!
 
353katietx
      ID: 10737412
      Tue, Aug 08, 2006, 16:57
Jones focuses on the relatively narrow question of whether molten metal present at the World Trade Center site after the attacks is evidence that a high-temperature incendiary called thermite, which can be used to weld or cut metal, was involved in the towers' destruction.

He concludes thermite was present, throwing the government's entire explanation into question and suggesting someone might have used explosives to bring down the towers.



Wonder if his conclusions are based on facts, or supposition?



 
354boikin
      ID: 400291013
      Tue, Aug 08, 2006, 17:00
OK what does it mean if for some reason the whole thing was set up by government? What would be the consequences?
 
355Boldwin
      ID: 46651516
      Tue, Aug 08, 2006, 23:29
Neocons get to run the world for a while.
 
356Boldwin
      ID: 46651516
      Tue, Aug 08, 2006, 23:32
And after admitting that they, the self-appointed smartest guys in the world can't run it, hand the mess to the UN so they can mess it up infinitely more.
 
357Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Aug 09, 2006, 18:58
Anyone see the cover of this week's Voice?



Interestingly, they aren't running the cover on their home page, like they usually do: http://www.villagevoice.com/
 
358sarge33rd
      ID: 575352217
      Wed, Aug 09, 2006, 19:08
from the link in poost 350;

The movement claims to be drawing fresh energy and credibility from a recently formed group called Scholars for 9/11 Truth.

And I was worried the Swifties would be out of work with the election over.
 
359katietx
      ID: 10737412
      Wed, Aug 09, 2006, 19:35
Um sarge, hate to burst your bubble, but they are mostly Dems.
 
360sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Thu, Aug 10, 2006, 00:51
90 oddballs in the country, I could care less what party they claim. It was a play on the ".....for truth".







As for the thread title, "Who planned 9/11";

3 words...

OH BEE EL
 
361Boldwin
      ID: 46651516
      Thu, Aug 10, 2006, 03:48
Actually I have no problem with saying OBL planned 9/11. And Japanese generals planned Pearl Harbor.

American presidents decided not to stop those plans from succeeding.
 
362Wilmer McLean
      ID: 0822219
      Mon, Sep 04, 2006, 11:30
RE: 332

Local Article on the Makers of Loose Change
 
363katietx
      ID: 357543117
      Thu, Sep 07, 2006, 18:11
Just an FYI - ABC is airing The Path to 9/11 Sunday night 7 central/8 eastern.

There has been a lot of talk on the radio about this and it may well be worth watching.

 
364Perm Dude
      ID: 5281978
      Thu, Sep 07, 2006, 18:18
Only if you like "fictudrama".

Any history of 9/11 which starts with 1993 has its problems anyway (after all, Bin Laden himself says he conceived of the WTC attacks in 1983, after watching the Beirut attacks). But one in which the 9/11 Commission Report is both used as a crutch and ignored at the same time should give one pause.

 
365katietx
      ID: 357543117
      Thu, Sep 07, 2006, 19:00
PD - I'm certainly not saying everything will be fact. However, there will be some rather disturbing info regarding a "triple cross" (in case no one saw the Nat. Geographic special Monday evening).

As with anything aired by so-called "news organizations" viewers should watch with a cautionary tone.
 
366Perm Dude
      ID: 5281978
      Thu, Sep 07, 2006, 19:10
Oh, I'm not saying that you are saying that either, katie.

It just appears that the thing has a strong anti-Clinton bias and has several big factual errors, all of which are against Clinton. And early copies of the publicity materials and video were sent to (surprise!) right-wing media types like O'Reilly and Limbaugh.

I'm still waiting for all the wingnuts who screamed about "The Reagans" movie to jump in with the same arguments here.
 
367Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 374522815
      Thu, Sep 07, 2006, 20:21
it may well be worth watching.

So that the most emotionally charged national tragedy in most's American's lives can be distorted only 5 years after it happened? Please spare me.
 
368Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 374522815
      Thu, Sep 07, 2006, 20:24
And by the way, in case you haven't heard, ABC is distributing the film to schools around the country as a teaching aid.

 
369Pancho Villa
      ID: 366352418
      Thu, Sep 07, 2006, 20:49
#368
I have no problem with that, as long as Loose Change is distributed at the same time.
 
370nerveclinic
      ID: 10526140
      Thu, Sep 07, 2006, 23:24
PD

(after all, Bin Laden himself says he conceived of the WTC attacks in 1983, after watching the Beirut attacks)

Are you sure?

I mean anytime we hear or see Bin, it's some crap image, crap recording. The guy is a billionaire. Everytime we see film of him, or listen to a recording, it's on a crap 8MM projector that got dropped into the toilet before it was delivered to the media.

Have you seen a recent clear, easy to comprehend video of him since 9/11????????

You haven't. Why? He can't get a hold of a $250.00 video camera to make his message?

two words.

WAKE UP.

I don't know where I can find a video camera that's as bad as the ones he supposedly films on.

DUH

 
371Perm Dude
      ID: 5281978
      Thu, Sep 07, 2006, 23:35
Hmmm. I've read your post a couple of times, nerve, and I have no idea what you are trying to say.

There are several places which reproduce Bin Laden's point about the 1983 bombimg: Here's one which purports to be from his Last Will. Here's another in which he started believing the US was a "paper tiger" because the cut and ran.

I don't know of any video of bin Laden spelling this out.
 
372nerveclinic
      ID: 10526140
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 01:04
PD

There have been a couple video's and tape recordings released of Bin Laden since 911.

We are promised by the ever trustworthy CIA that after testing the data they are indeed Bin Laden's voice and image.

They are always on crap tapes and crap videos.

You don't know what I am talking about?

Anyone can type words on a piece of paper and say Bin Laden wrote them.

Why does he film himself on such crap video cameras?

 
373sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 08:14
Not sure Best Buy has anoutlet in the hills of Pakistan.
 
374Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 374522815
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 08:28
Nerveclinic

I don't know that all the cameras he uses are all that crappy.

Here's the one from 2001 where he says he is happy about the 9/11 attacks.

The quality is obviously below western TV broadcast standards but hardly like a crap 8MM projector that got dropped into the toilet. The camera might be capable of a better focus but obviously there is no professional video tech to adjust the color schemes and other video levels and no one bothered to white-balance. No professional lighting. Microphones are too far from the people speaking (probably just using the camera mics).

This video, released yesterday and supposedly taken during the preparations for the attacks is actually of pretty good quality.

But I've also seen some of the very poor quality images you're talking about and there are many potential reasons for their poor production quality. First is that just about all of these Islamist videos you see are of crappy quality. Unless you deny the validity of every video supposedly produced by these various hostile Islamist groups (I assume you do believe there are at least some hostile Islamists fighting with, attacking and kidnapping westerners) you'll acknowledge that they are pretty consistantly poor. I tend to think that people in hiding in these parts of the world might know that purchasing sophisticated and expensive video equipment could give important clues to enemy intelligence on their location. And of course these people need to be able to pick up everything and go at a moments notice. Lugging such equipment around would pose a similar problem, not to mention making travel generally more difficult. Further, whatever equipment they do have will be subjected to the harsh rigors of their environment - unpaved roads, fighting, sand storms, etc. I imagine all of this is even more true in the remote mountanous terrain of Western Pakistan, if thats where OBL is.

Second is that I don't know why you'd expect him to care very much about video production values, as long as he gets his message across. We're talking about people who go to a royal wedding and sit on a dirt floor in a cave. Obviously they have a certain disdain for Western worship of unnecessary material goods and other trivialties. I can easliy see how something like video production quality might fall in line with what people like him consider trivial in that way.

Third, the quality of the foreign video we see here in America is always downgraded somewhat in the translation from other formats. Translations of high-end films done by major studios from the PAL and SECAM formats used abroad to the NTSC format we use here are usually on slightly affected. But that can take hours or even days of editing to keep the quality high. To turn around a tape like this in a couple of hours or less for immediate broadcast there will be notable loss in quality.

Fourth, I have to believe our intelligence is smarter than to overlook a detail like what the apropriate quality of these videos should be. If they're going to fake something like this, they're going to try to do it well enough to fool experts who view the video. I guarantee you that if the video production values were of the quality that you think they should be there would be a slew of Encyclopedia Browns out there telling us to WAKE UP and realize the videos are fake because they quality is too good.
 
375Motley Crue
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 08:42
If the CIA was doing it, you know they'd be good quality. If there's one thing our government is good at it's elaborately detailed and convincing subterfuge.

Right, nerve?
 
376katietx
      ID: 357543117
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 11:09
RE: 368. No they're not.

Originally Scholastic was sponsoring the distribution to teachers as an aid in teaching about 9/11. However, Scholastic has withdrawn and the video & accompanying study information will not be distributed.

 
377sarge33rd
      ID: 257222410
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 11:29
Actually, they are rewriting it to take a different "track" so to speak.

Scholastic squashes 'The Path to 9/11' guide

Kinda hard at this point, to say what the new material will amount to.
 
378Perm Dude
      ID: 5183188
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 11:54
katie, Scholastic is owned by the same parent company as ABC.
 
379katietx
      ID: 357543117
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 12:17
I wouldn't be surprised at this point to see ABC pull the entire program.
 
380Perm Dude
      ID: 5183188
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 12:20
You could be right. They might pull a CBS and license the thing to a cable network.
 
381boikin
      ID: 400291013
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 12:25
i hope they put it on anything to watch that is not nfl on NBC.
 
382Motley Crue
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 12:34
Blasphemer!

You do realize this is a Fantasy Sports Message Board, boikin?
 
383boikin
      ID: 400291013
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 12:36
MC i did not say i would not check the box score, just nbc nfl coverage is terrible i have seen better coverage done by some frat guys at an intramural game.
 
384sarge33rd
      ID: 257222410
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 12:38
Coverage last night, was far superior to espns handling of mnf.
 
385boikin
      ID: 400291013
      Fri, Sep 08, 2006, 12:59
sarge you thought so? we probably should start a new thread though for this. though i though espn sucked it up too. abc was much better than both. i just want to know what was up with the guy they had before the game on nbc it was like he just got up and was drunk.
 
386nerveclinic
      ID: 10526140
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 03:59
Here's what happens if you open your big fat mouth...

Brigham Young University administrators are trying to find out the extent of one professor's involvement in blaming the September 11th terrorist attacks on the government.

According to a copyrighted Deseret Morning News article, Dr. Steven Jones is on paid leave for suggesting the government is responsible for the destruction of the World Trade Center.

Jones is a physics professor involved in what's called the "9-11 Truth Movement."


Jones believes unnamed government agencies orchestrated the fall of the twin towers, and he says there's evidence to back it up.

Two weeks ago he published his theory in a paper called, "Why Indeed did the World Trade Center Buildings Collapse?" In it, the professor says the towers fell not because of planes hitting them, but because of pre-positioned demolition charges.

He cites research conducted at BYU on materials from ground zero, asserting those materials show evidence of thermite, a compound used in military detonations. He says terrorists could have never set those charges.

Jones spoke this summer at a scholars' symposium in California.

Dr. Steven Jones/ BYU Physics Professor: "The chain of events leads me to reluctantly conclude that indeed there does seem to be insiders. In other words, not just hijacked planes, but also others setting these thermite cutting charges into the World Trade Center and bringing them down."

The State Department has released a rebuttal to Jones' theory in a 10-thousand page report.

BYU made this statement last night"


"Physics Professor Steven Jones has made numerous statements about the collapse of the World Trade Center. BYU has repeatedly said that it does not endorse assertions made by individual faculty.

"We are, however, concerned about the increasingly speculative and accusatory nature of these statements by Dr. Jones."

The university added, "BYU remains concerned that Dr. Jones' works on this topic has not been published in appropriate scientific venues."

It is rare for some in Dr. Jones' position to be under review because he has taught at BYU for more than two decades.

He began his career at the university in 1985 and has been known for his cold fusion research. Other professors will teach his classes while he's on paid leave.

He will be allowed to conduct research in his field but the university is reviewing his actions.


The great thing about this country is if you disagree with the governmetn you are free to speak your mind without fear of recrimination.

 
387Perm Dude
      ID: 3281199
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 10:11
It is a copyrighted article?

ROFL! How much support are they looking to scrape up?
 
388biliruben
      ID: 535193010
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 10:36
Huh? I don't understand, permissions man. Explain the joke.
 
389sarge33rd
      ID: 257222410
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 10:39
The great thing about this country is if you disagree with the governmetn you are free to speak your mind without fear of recrimination.

Has he been charged with anything? If not, the only "recrimination" is from the employer, and in very, VERY few states, does an employer not have the legal right to terminate that relationship w/o cause. IOW, you can get canned cause your boss didnt get any last night, and your only recourse is to draw unemployment.
 
390katietx
      ID: 357543117
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 12:18
He has tenure - going to be very hard to fire him.
 
391sarge33rd
      ID: 257222410
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 12:22
not disputing that. Just saying that employers have the right to "censure" if they choose to. Has nothing to do with an individuals right to speak contra government policies.
 
392nerveclinic
      ID: 10526140
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 13:48
Sarge

The guy is building a case that there are serious concerns about the official story behind 911 and he's doing it using scientific evidence.

The University pulls him from his teaching job (Yes with Pay). This type of action by an employer in Academia sends a clear message to those who attempt this political research.

Your response is an employer can do whatever they want. Great response by someone who loves and fought for "Freedom".

The guys not just spouting off, he's backing up his opinion with scientific evidence.

You disagree with him, so it's OK for his employer to punish him for exploring something he is trying to prove with facts.

The more I read your posts Sarge, the more I wonder where you're coming from.

Maybe that's "your" America. It's not mine.

If the guy was just making this stuff up off the top of his head, I can understand their actions.

If he's building a case by demonstrating there are serious questions, and he's using scientific evidence that can be challenged and analyzed, in my America, Academia owes it to society to allow him to explore the evidence, even when the conclusions don't mirror the institutions beliefs, or Sarge's.

Unless there's something your trying to hide the truth will come out the more ideas are analyzed, silencing someone just leads more people to think that something is up.

 
393sarge33rd
      ID: 257222410
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 14:28
NC...I'm not agreeing with the Univ's decision. I'm simply stating the fact...employers can make life difficult, with or without cause. That in and of itself, doesnt constitute a violation of an individuals right to speak his/her mind.
 
394Pancho Villa
      ID: 366352418
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 15:42
90 oddballs in the country, I could care less what party they claim. It was a play on the ".....for truth". - sarge #360


I'm not agreeing with the Univ's decision-sarge #393

Sure you are , sarge. You've pigeon-holed Jones as an oddball, completely dismissing his academic credentials, or even bothering to explore why his position is so important to the future of this nation. In fact, you posted that his research has been de-bunked, which is entirely untrue. There is no peer review of Jones' work that you can link to in support of that position, although you'll find thousands of laymen who dismiss him as an oddball, nutcase, crazy Mormon, traitor and the like.

Consider that the final NIST report on Bldg 7 is over a year and a half late. Does that indicate that they're having a difficult time coming up with a plausible theory that will be more believable than the initial FEMA and NIST reports which totally clashed?
One has to ask, if NIST is so stuck attempting to prepare a theory that coincides with a skyscraper imploding from a fire, a historical first, perhaps they ought to look at the incident from a different perspective and consider controlled demolition, the only way a building like that has ever imploded in such a manner.

Of course, the biggest question is why the government is so adamant against any independent investigation? If that doesn't raise suspicions among thinking Americans, then we probably deserve the kind of government we're getting, and the even scarier one we'll have in the future.


 
395sarge33rd
      ID: 257222410
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 16:05
No PV, in conjunction with NC's post386, what I have said is, "Employers can fire/censure whatever, w/o cause. That does not infringe upon your right to speak." This was in direct response to NC's line, The great thing about this country is if you disagree with the governmetn you are free to speak your mind without fear of recrimination.

There has been no govrnmental recrimination, no charges filed, which is the implication of NC's post, and the catalyst behind my response.
 
396Pancho Villa
      ID: 366352418
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 16:13
There has been no govrnmental recrimination

Not officially, but Bush did meet with Gordon B Hinkley(head of the LDS Church which owns BYU) when he was in town last week. Strange timing that it took BYU almost a year to make this move, but only a week after Bush met with Hinkley.

 
397sarge33rd
      ID: 257222410
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 16:18
And someone from Iraq once met with someone form Al Qaeda, and shrub turns that into an implication for war. I'm not about to make the same mistake.
 
398Pancho Villa
      ID: 366352418
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 18:56
someone from Iraq once met with someone form Al Qaeda

Bad analogy, Sarge. Now, the President of Iraq meeting publicly with the Leader of Al Qaeda would be a different story, correct? That is what we're talking here.

 
399Perm Dude
      ID: 2783919
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 20:03
Really? When?
 
400sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 21:16
No PV it isnt. What I'm talking about, is your leaping to a conclusion re the gist of whatever conversation took place. THAT, is what I'm talking about.
 
401Boldwin
      ID: 46651516
      Sat, Sep 09, 2006, 21:29
Watching the History Channel...

Aëtius when faced with Atilla the Hun maurauding at Orleans united the 'christian forces' to face down the 'anti-christian forces' getting some very unlikely allies to cooperate in a military operation.

At the Battle of Chalons shortly thereafter Atilla withdrew fearing capture, Aëtius when faced with the option of trying to kill or capture Atilla decided to withdraw. Had he captured or killed Atilla then the shaky alliance would have broken down and Roman leadership of that unlikely alliance of neccessity would have been vastly weakened.

Neocons in thinktank when OBL was at Tora Bora...

"...Battle of Chalons..."

*nods all around*
 
402Boldwin
      ID: 46651516
      Sun, Sep 10, 2006, 04:10
In other news Tony Blair announced he would resign...

"Darmok on the ocean." - Bush
 
403The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Oct 02, 2006, 15:45
Controlled Demolition of Landmark Building in Fort Worth

Do the smoke clouds look familiar?
It's weird how it looks identical to the WTC buildings that did not use explosives.
 
404Perm Dude
      ID: 49950211
      Mon, Oct 02, 2006, 15:53
Smoke clouds come from parts of the collapsed buildings turning to dust, then arising again.

I'll send you some photos of clouds that look remarkably like celebrities...
 
405boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Mon, Oct 02, 2006, 16:00
PD i dont know why you humor him in this way.
 
406Perm Dude
      ID: 49950211
      Mon, Oct 02, 2006, 16:09
Heh heh. I don't either. But it's fun.
 
407The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Oct 02, 2006, 16:46
Good. So you both agree they look similar.
 
408Tree
      ID: 0944212
      Mon, Oct 02, 2006, 16:55
Do the smoke clouds look familiar?
It's weird how it looks identical to the WTC buildings that did not use explosives.


it's somewhat because of the design of the building.

the WTC were designed to pancake in case of collapse, as opposed to fall over and crush god knows how many people wandering the streets of NYC.
 
409boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Mon, Oct 02, 2006, 16:56
Are there a large number of Iranians on this thread?
 
410The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Oct 11, 2006, 14:47
Tonight on South Park, Eric Cartman uncovers the true culprit behind the 9/11 attacks. link
 
411The Treasonists
      Donor
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Oct 27, 2006, 13:58
OK, Let's try this one. It takes about 10 seconds.

Sise-by-side controlled demolitions. Compare to twin Towers collapse.
 
412Baldwin
      ID: 189102715
      Sat, Oct 28, 2006, 00:39
And now for the musical interlude portion of our thread.
 
413Pancho Villa
      ID: 1311532913
      Tue, Jan 16, 2007, 16:44
The Cultural Left is responsible.
 
414Perm Dude
      ID: 130151611
      Tue, Jan 16, 2007, 16:53
Interview with the author

Money quote:

Muslims are not enraged by our political freedom or democracy, but by the left's abuse of that freedom, specifically the excessive sexualization of our society.

So Bush is wrong--the terrorists don't hate us for our freedoms. They hate us because of our wet t-shirt nights and so on.

Apparently he believes that the radical Islamicists (who are, at their heart, conservatives) are right to hate the West's tolerance and liberalism.
 
415Pancho Villa
      ID: 1311532913
      Tue, Jan 16, 2007, 18:26
Makes it kind of hard to explain why some of the alleged hijackers were out at a strip club the might before the attacks. Self-loathing?
 
416sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Jan 17, 2007, 16:49
"They" are bent over the "excessive sexualization"??????

Lets see...this "they" to which I refer:

When a woman is raped, they charge her with prompting the act.

When a building is on fire, they lock the doors to prevent the women from escaping the blaze, unless the women have taken the time to don face covering apparel first.

If a woman "disgraces" the family (by the male member of the families definition), then it is perfectly acceptable to kill that woman.




Common sense, dictates that they have no room what-so-ever, to pass judgement over the treatment of women.
 
417sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Jan 17, 2007, 16:50
Makes it kind of hard to explain why some of the alleged hijackers were out at a strip club the might before the attacks. Self-loathing?

One thing is certain PV...theyw ere NOT looking for virgins.
 
418boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Wed, Jan 17, 2007, 16:54
sarge is full of boderline racist statements today. Oh and treatment of women has notthing to do with over sexualation, expect for the argument that some people make that over sexualation leads to the miss treatment of women, but that is another subject.
 
419sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Jan 17, 2007, 17:00
boikin is full of sh*t I see. Racism??? Those comments are historic fact boikin. Nothing judgemental or "racist" involved. (Since when btw, is Muslim or Islam a race, for comments in that direction to be "racist"?)
 
420boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Wed, Jan 17, 2007, 17:21
oh sorry you are correct Islam is not race so i used the wrong word, you still are generalizing a whole religion just as you did with college football players. tell me the last time you saw muslim in america locking the doors on a burning building. there are over a billion muslims in the world and you just simplefied them down to few acts. defend yourself some more sarge, how is the cross burning going since it to is historical fact you must doing it now.
 
421sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Jan 17, 2007, 17:31
boikin - baldwin????

Ea of those comments I made above, referred to the types who participated in 9/11 boikin. That radical element, is guilty of each charge I levelled. (As ea statement is a one or two sentence summary of reported news articles over the past year or so.)

Do us a favor...go play tag in the middle of the freeway.
 
422boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Wed, Jan 17, 2007, 17:38
oh now they refer to types in who particapated in 9/11, well i guess now you are not generalizing when you get called on it. now go and explain yourself with college football players postings. And maybe i will go play tag i am sure i have lost enough IQ pts reading your posts to play in the highway.
 
423katietx
      ID: 3810431417
      Wed, Jan 17, 2007, 17:42
oh now they refer to types in who particapated in 9/11, well i guess now you are not generalizing when you get called on it.

boikin try reading the thread topic.
 
424sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Jan 17, 2007, 17:49
the football post only requires explanation for irate lawyers and morons. Are you an irate attorney?
 
425Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 49848118
      Wed, Jan 17, 2007, 18:13
Boikin, your claim is that Islamist mysogyny results from their being oversexed?
 
426Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Feb 09, 2007, 13:51
More evidence Building 7 was a controlled demolition.
 
427ukula
      ID: 51140913
      Fri, Feb 09, 2007, 14:40
Building 7 was destroyed by fire. How do I know? Because my government told me so and they would never lie to me, after all they were nice suits and talk calmly while the terrorists wear robes and scream.
 
428Rios
      ID: 260413010
      Fri, Feb 09, 2007, 19:07
who planned 9/11?

well, in addition to the u.s. government...we also know that pakistan funded the lead 9/11 hijacker.

911 Press for Truth (Video)
 
429sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Feb 09, 2007, 19:22
In response to various conspiracy theories:

I think maybe JFK planned the WTC incident. Hoover and Bush Sr caught wind of it, and participated in his assasination. Bobby found out, along with MLK, so Bush/Hoover hired Sirhan and others to do their dirty work yet again. Many years later, JFK JR was perusing old family letters, when he stumbled across some of Bobbies writings. Putting 2and2 together, he got involved. Once more, the Bush machinery went into motion. The current Bush, has been brilliantly playing the dolt, while using the Iraq war as a smokescreen (wagging the dog so to speak) and thus deflecting any real investigations. Of course, to start Iraq, he first had to carry out JFKs plan re the WTC.
 
430nerveclinic
      ID: 35143102
      Sat, Feb 10, 2007, 04:01


It's interesting Sarge.

Rather then argue why the evidence presented is not valid by countering it, you seem to just make a bunch of jokes.

The building 7 link raises interesting points but you make no attempt to counter them. You just make jokes that really aren't that funny.

I understand and respect the fact you remain skeptical. That you have faith that everything is as it seems and it's not at all possible that things go on behind the scenes. If you're so sure of this, why not counter the evidence that's presented, instead of just making bad jokes?

Really the little dialog you narrate above is neither funny nor relevant to the discussion at hand. It's a common tactic of people who refuse to believe anything goes on behind the scenes. They just make a big joke of it and hope by doing so, everyone will ignore the evidence being presented.

Did you look at the link?





 
431Punk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 036635522
      Sat, Feb 10, 2007, 04:28
Now it is established that they lied about Building 7, how can we trust their often changing explanations of the collapse of the twin towers, especially considering the dozens and dozens of eyewitnesses who have gone on the record to report the fact that explosives were seen and heard on all levels of both towers, including underground?

Maybe i'm not understanding this right, but they are saying that people think explosives went off all through the two towers and that is what brought them down? If they think they came from underground why is it that both points started to fall from about the point they were struck? Even if both buildings were rigged with explosives around different levels, are they saying a "missle" or whatever object they think hit them hit right where it should have on the building? As with all of these stories, some parts sound very realistic, and then others just sound so stupid taht a 3 year old came up with them.
 
432Punk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 036635522
      Sat, Feb 10, 2007, 04:31
Also since they talk about how it is such a controlled fall and everything else, if you watch the video the debree is falling and roaring through the streets for a few blocks. If you watch both #7 and the Towers all three fall down on top of themselves. But of course for the towers there is a ton more things falling creating a larger area of destruction.
 
433The Treasonists
      ID: 571192610
      Sat, Feb 10, 2007, 09:04
Wow, a real question. This link provides an analysis of the collapse and problems with the governments's pancake theory. link

If you have some time, click around on that site. You'll discover stuff you won't see in Big Media.

I'd like to post a picture or diagram, but do not know how to. If someone would like to show me how, I would appreciate it.
 
434Pancho Villa
      ID: 37154320
      Sat, Feb 10, 2007, 17:57
Here's NIST engineer John Gross lying about the towers' collapse. link
 
435Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Feb 11, 2007, 07:49
I read the link in #426 and I am still not convinced.

The government blew up WTC 7 to commit insurance fraud? Gimme a break for goodness sake. Since when has our government been such penny pinchers that they'd blow up a building rather than just pay for a new one?

Why blow up WTC 7?
 
436Perm Dude
      ID: 1016117
      Sun, Feb 11, 2007, 08:06
My opinion hasn't changed on this. I think they might have blown it up (after all, the FBI had offices there, and there is some evidence the CIA maintained an office there as well). It certainly wouldn't surprise me that spooks pre-planted explosives.

I accept the explosion on its face, however. The building was collapsing and blowing it up in a controlled way was better than having it come down uncontrolled.
 
437The Treasonists
      ID: 571192610
      Sun, Feb 11, 2007, 09:34
The building was collapsing and blowing it up in a controlled way was better than having it come down uncontrolled.

Then why do they lie about it? Post #119 shows the time taken to setup some other controlled demolitions. It takes weeks, if not months. It is not slapped together in an afternoon. If they were preparing this before 9/11/01, then somebody has some explaining to do. My guess, is they may have to switch to this explanation at some time in the future, though.

#433 I'd like to post a picture or diagram, but do not know how to. If someone would like to show me how, I would appreciate it.

In Post #326 in this very thread, we see a picture posted by Boxman. I'm also pretty sure Perm Dude knows how to do it. So, that picture will just have to wait. It's not like I'm not going to find out or something.
 
438nerveclinic
      ID: 1101111
      Sun, Feb 11, 2007, 12:13


Punk As with all of these stories, some parts sound very realistic, and then others just sound so stupid taht a 3 year old came up with them.

How then do you explain that a lot of the theroies are coming from scientists, structural engineers and building demolition experts?

If you watch both #7 and the Towers all three fall down on top of themselves.

That's what happens during a controlled demolition.

The government blew up WTC 7 to commit insurance fraud?

Um, I doubt anyone contributing to this thread thinks it was because of insurance fraud. I didn't read the whole link but that's clearly a misinterpretation by the author of plausible explanations.




 
439Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 45022307
      Sun, Feb 11, 2007, 12:20
I've never understood how you guys claim to know that a skyscraper that is allgedly designed to collapse on top of itself in a disaster will actually not collapse on top of itslef in a disaster?
 
440Punk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 036635522
      Sun, Feb 11, 2007, 12:32
It should be huffed and puffed and blown right over MITH, come on. :')
 
441nerveclinic
      ID: 1101111
      Sun, Feb 11, 2007, 12:41


I've never understood how you guys claim to know that a skyscraper that is allgedly designed to collapse on top of itself in a disaster will actually not collapse on top of itslef in a disaster?

No one is making that claim. Building 7 wasn't involved in a disaster. It was next to the WTC buildings and caught fire. No other building in the history of construction has collapsed in under 7 seconds from simply catching fire.

The statement above implies you haven't been following the evidence and theories espoused by scientists in the thread, you just jumped in with an illogical comment.

I'm not speaking as an expert on the subject, I have to rely on the scientists who have studied building demolitions etc.

What is the disaster that building 7 was involved in, it wasn't hit by the planes?



 
442Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Feb 11, 2007, 18:16
Nerveclinic: For the sake of objectivity, how do you refute this?
 
443nerveclinic
      ID: 27051103
      Mon, Feb 12, 2007, 02:39

Boxman

I will look at it when I have time. I'm at work now.

I'm not out to "refute" anything though. I honestly don't have an "agenda".

If the arguements are valid, that building 7 collapsed in just over 6 seconds for a logical, plausible reason, I will definately look at that evidence with an open mind. I've yet to form an opinion on what exactly happened on 9/11.

The people who seem to be questioning the collapse of building 7 are often experts in the field of demolition. I'm not.

I'm still processing the evidence and frankly there is so much of it and it's so technical that I am finding it difficult to make an informed opinion. It's particularly tough now since I don't have internet at home.

One literally needs many hours to go through it all, and then you have to know which experts to believe.

My only arguement, is that it's not an open and shut case, there do appear to be questions worth asking, and it's in no one's best interest to simply believe everything the government tells us without question.


 
444Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 45022307
      Mon, Feb 12, 2007, 08:24
Good find, Boxman.
 
445Pancho Villa
      ID: 37154320
      Mon, Feb 12, 2007, 09:13
Boxman,
There are numerous issues in play in your link, which concludes with the preliminary NIST report, which has been widely criticized as using theory to support a pre-conceived conclusion, while ignoring many of the questions presented mostly by Stephen Jones. This is glaringly apparent by the denial of NIST engineer John Gross that any witness publicly stated that molten steel was present at the base of the towers.

Much of this is completely irrelevant though. I doubt anyone who posts on this forum has the physics expertise to understand, much less analyze, the equations used to determine free fall speeds of imploding buildings.
What is relevant is that there has been no thorough, independent investigation into the collapse of these towers, especially Building 7, taking into consideration all possibilities and probabilities. This shouldn't be the domain of internet sites making claims and debunking claims, and debunking the debunking, it should be the domain of evidence presented and cross-examined, and witnesses questioned under oath.

Much like the JFK assassination, the more time elapsed, the bigger the challenge to find truth. It seems there are many who OK with that.


 
446Perm Dude
      ID: 38146128
      Mon, Feb 12, 2007, 09:53
PV: Your last note is a cheap shot. There are some things out there that are not truthful, but the fact that people who are looking for the truth (many with even more clearly defined biases than the government) have a hard time finding it isn't altogether a big deal. Governments lie, and saying so doesn't mean that "many" are giving them a pass on all lying, or on actions which might result in a lie to cover it up.

The goverment blew up the damaged building. So what?

Also, "Truth" isn't some clearly defined nirvana, that once you reach it you know all. Particularly for some events, we may never find this "truth" because there simply isn't enough evidence to come to that bright shining truth.
 
447The Treasonists
      ID: 571192610
      Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 00:00
 
448Boxman
      ID: 211139621
      Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 06:26
Pancho Villa: There are numerous issues in play in your link, which concludes with the preliminary NIST report, which has been widely criticized as using theory to support a pre-conceived conclusion, while ignoring many of the questions presented mostly by Stephen Jones.

Kinda sounds like the conspiracy theorist movement doesn't it?

There was no strategic need to nefariously blow up WTC 7. They did not need to do it to cause rage amongst the populace, they did not need to do it for insurance fraud. Let's say WTC 7 contained the files for some vast 9/11 conspiracy. This is the digital age. They could burn paper files like in the old days and physically smash computer hard drives, all without destroying an entire building.
 
449Perm Dude
      ID: 40113139
      Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 10:17
There was no strategic need to nefariously blow up WTC 7

Putting aside your question of nefariousness (which is a bias), we just don't know whether there was a need or not.
 
450nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 13:07
Boxman I looked at the link.

It's quite a long read, I skimmed through most of the points. It
realy labored on the issue of wether "pull" means to implode a
building in the context it was used by the "Silverstien". I will give
them that arguement.

What I still didn't see solved is the point that Treasonist
articulated in post 119 which is the only central question I have
focused on.

The 6.6 seconds refers to the time between when WTC7 is
standing there and 6.6 seconds later it is a pile of rubble less
than 2 stories high. Under the pancake theory of WTC 1 and 2,
one floor fell down on the lower one and then those fell on the
one below ,etc. It would make sense that this would take longer
than a controlled demolition where the supports are blown out
at the bottom and maybe other places. Some think that those
buildings seemed to fall too fast for the pancake theory to be
believed. Like that Texas A&M guy wrote a few months ago. As
far as WTC 7 goes, the government explanation is that parts of
WTC 1 and 2 fell on WTC 7 and damaged it and started fires.
And I'm sure this did happen. Where it gets fishy though is that
this damage and these fires would cause all 4 supports or
however many there were to fail all at the exact same time
causing WTC 7 to fall perfectly straight down. I have trouble with
that one. One would think that the fire would be a little hotter in
one place than another, or debris hit one part of the bulding but
not another, etc. There is also a question of if this fire could
even get hot enough to burn thru steel like butter. Remember
WTC 7 was not hit by an airplane.


I still don't think your link gave a thorough enough explanation
for this central point that I understand to have been raised by
people who are experts on demolition of buildings, not
conspiracy theorists by profession.

Anyone know how to make my Mac post normal length?



 
451Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 12:05
Eyewitness video evidence that Building 7 was a controlled demolition. Watch the 10 second video here. or a 36 second video here. Listen to Dan Rather's comments at the time.
 
452Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 13:46
There was no strategic need to nefariously blow up WTC 7.

You don't think [possibly] destroying the evidence, possibly the site from which it was run, reinforcing the magnitude of the event...all together don't represent a conceivable motive?
 
453nerveclinic
      ID: 24131174
      Sat, Feb 17, 2007, 05:44

In the interest of demonstrating an ability to look at all opinions on the topic, here is a scathing anti 9/11 conspiracy theory piece by none other then Alexander Cochburn of "Counterpunch".

Not only does he spare no venom in mocking those who believe 9/11 was a conspiracy, he constantly refers to those who believe in any conspiracy (Including the Kennedy assassination) as nuts.

I think he makes some good points in his piece but I don't find the total argument he maps out convincing.

Have a look. The anti conspiracy crowd in the forum will find it particularly amusing.

link

 
454Sludge
      ID: 45541422
      Sat, Feb 17, 2007, 11:31
My favorite:

There is no 9/11 conspiracy you morons

Personally, I find his argument most compelling of all.
 
455Pancho Villa
      ID: 37154320
      Sat, Feb 17, 2007, 12:29
Cockburn displays some of the most ridiculous arguements ever written about 9/11. Rather than take his entire article to pieces, let's just take his first premise as an analysis.

In light of standard procedures for dealing with hijacked airplanes… not one of these planes should have reached its target, let alone all three of them.”[David Ray Griffin]

The operative word here is “should”. One characteristic of the nuts is that they have a devout, albeit preposterous belief in American efficiency, thus many of them start with the racist premise that “Arabs in caves” weren’t capable of the mission. They believe that military systems work the way Pentagon press flacks and aerospace salesmen say they should work. They believe that at 8.14 am, when AA flight 11 switched off its radio and transponder, an FAA flight controller should have called the National Military Command center and NORAD. They believe, citing reverently (this is from high priest Griffin) “the US Air Force’s own website”, that an F-15 could have intercepted AA flight 11 “by 8.24, and certainly no later than 8.30”.

They appear to have read no military history, which is too bad because if they did they’d know that minutely planned operations – let alone responses to an unprecedented emergency -- screw up with monotonous regularity, by reason of stupidity, cowardice, venality, weather and all the other whims of providence.


According to Cockburn, it all can be easily explained that the response can be blamed on any number of things except real ones, such as:

Global Guardian(United States Strategic Command in cooperation with Space Command and NORAD)

Vigilant Guardian( NORAD, including a simulated hijacking)

Operation Northern Vigilance(NORAD)

Vigilant Warrior(unclear - NORAD according to Richard Clatke)

National Reconnaissance Office drill( In a simulated event, a small aircraft would crash into one of the towers of the agency's headquarters after experiencing a mechanical failure. The NRO is the branch of the Department of Defense in charge of spy satellites. According to its spokesman Art Haubold: "No actual plane was to be involved -- to simulate the damage from the crash, some stairwells and exits were to be closed off, forcing employees to find other ways to evacuate the building." He further explained: "It was just an incredible coincidence that this happened to involve an aircraft crashing into our facility

How can you write an article that includes military reaction to the hijacking without even mentioning these exercises? They were never brought up in the 9/11 commission(just like WTC 7).

We're to believe that the National Security Advisor, who later expressed that no could have possibly thought that planes could be used as weapons was unaware that we were having drills for just that scenario on 9/11?

Maybe none of these exercises had anything to do with the response on 9/11. If so, why aren't they part of the public dialogue? Why did the government have to sheepishly admit their existence after being exposed by outside sources? And people wonder why there are conspiracy theorists.



 
456Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Sat, Feb 17, 2007, 14:52
I would want to know when were they scheduled? Is it possible the alleged terrorists found out when they were going to take place in advance, and scheduled their attack the same day. If not, what are the odds of a real attack happening at the very same time as a simulated one.

Every time I read one of these debunkers they are condescending, arrogant, rude, they belittle anyone that does not agree with them. Can they not just lay out their facts in a neutral manner?

 
457sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Feb 17, 2007, 17:08
re 454....When he folded up the $100 to find his own sewcret message, I spit my mt dew onto my keyboard. roflmao
 
458sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Feb 17, 2007, 17:30
RE 456...They have lain out the facts. Some, simply choose to ignore/disbelieve them.
 
459Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Feb 18, 2007, 08:52
I actually find CTs to be worthwhile. We have experienced quite a bit of questionable events in our country (JFK and WTC 7 to name a couple) and it is our duty to question our government, is it not?

So long as the CTs are doing this in the pursuit of truth and not as part of an anti-President (whether it be Bush or a guy like Clinton) I'm glad they are around.

The MSM is so full of stink that it must reach Heaven. It's nice to have a kind of counter culture out there to make us think.

I still believe that WTC 7 is suspicious, but I have read plausible explanations for the "mainstram" theory.

A favorite quote of mine is this from Edward Abbey, "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." I've done some quick reading about him online, and I don't agree with his politics, but his quote is right on.
 
460nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Mon, Feb 19, 2007, 12:06


Sarge RE 456...They have lain out the facts. Some, simply choose to ignore/disbelieve them.

I think there are plenty of people who disagree with your premise.

Not all the questions have been sufficiently addressed. Not all the explanations add up to an obviously correct explanation for all the issues that have been raised.

I'm still skeptical about some points made in oose Change but I've yet to hear enough from the de-bunkers to explain away their points.
 
461sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Feb 20, 2007, 12:06
Some points, will almost inevitably remain in seeming contrast to any explanation offered. Thats a simple fact of life IMHO. Not everything, wraps itself up in a nice little package for us. That the "package" has some frayed edges, is certainly no cause for me anyway, to go off on some wild hunt for an abstract "truth" that will never be fully satisfactory for anyone.

Fact is, sludges link in 454...as odd as it may sound, is right on the money. IF "Loose Change" is correct and our govt murdered 3,000+ in one fell swoop...then they would have had no qualms in orchestrating a car accident or 2, which would prove fatal to the makers of the "mocumentary".
 
462Pancho Villa
      ID: 37154320
      Tue, Feb 20, 2007, 13:55
sarge #461,
The makers of Loose Change were not on any radar, and any "accident" after the fact would have only resulted in massive publicity for the 9/11 truth movement in general, and their video in particular. The entire premise of Sludge's link is just another distraction from actually taking the events and making them transparent.
 
463sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Feb 20, 2007, 14:48
Sooo, the same govt that some alledge would murder 3,000+...gets all queasy with fear, over 3 or 4 more?????? Sorry...but I think not.
 
464nerveclinic
      ID: 27051103
      Wed, Feb 21, 2007, 04:58


Sooo, the same govt that some alledge would murder 3,000+...gets all queasy with fear, over 3 or 4 more?????? Sorry...but I think not.

Why would they need to kill them Sarge? Everyone knows that anyone who believes in and type of conspiracy theory is nothing but a nut.

Why kill a nut? There's no reason.

Besides If they did kill them, it might make people start to believe they really are onto something.




 
465Sludge
      ID: 45541422
      Wed, Feb 21, 2007, 10:19
The entire premise of Sludge's link is just another distraction from actually taking the events and making them transparent.

Yes, Maddox is a shill for The Man. That's ALMOST as funny as Bush: making political satirists obsolete since 2000 but NOWHERE NEAR as funny as I am better than your kids.

#462: Terrible. F
 
466sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Feb 21, 2007, 11:45
Besides If they did kill them, it might make people start to believe they really are onto something.

ohhhhhhh-k. And how exactly, would that be any different from the way it is?
 
467Pancho Villa
      ID: 37154320
      Wed, Feb 21, 2007, 16:01
Yes, Maddox is a shill for The Man.

Linking to the Popular Mechanics hack job in the original link would indicate so. Not so the links in #465. Maybe I missed the satire.
 
468Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Feb 21, 2007, 16:52


Here we have the final portion of the Jumbo 757 known as Flight 77 that left the small hole in the Pentagon as seen in Post #447.

This meticuously planned event over 2 or more years leaves some questions. Why not hit the Whitehouse or Capital. They fly right by them. Why not hit an important part of the Pentagon which would have been straight on, instead of this 270 degree turn to hit the only part of the Pentagon undergoing construction with many empty offices, and reinforced walls and blast-proof windows. Flying thru the Reagen Airport airspace is not keeping a low profile. It appears as if the SAM's at the Pentagon had 2 chances to take out the plane. And amazingly, there are no photos or videos of this plane, except the 4 frames from the toll booth video. It just doesn't seem well planned. Plus, this plane took off from Dulles, went to Kentucky...said Here I am, I'm making an unexpected U-turn and am now heading towards D.C. Makes no sense. To eliminate the chance of things going wrong, a prudent terrorist would have high-jacked the plane right away and crashed it right away. But, that's what Dick Cheney said happened. So I guess his version is what we'll have to believe.
 
469Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Fri, Feb 23, 2007, 08:28
It would be profitable to keep track of how very many terrorist attacks were accompanied by 'training exercizes' built around the very same scenario as actually happened. It happens in such a high percentage of these cases one could actually surmise that these are staged so that if anyone stumbles across the real thing going down and reports it, authorities can just pooh hooh it with, 'oh that's just that training excersize'.

 
470nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Fri, Feb 23, 2007, 08:54


It would be profitable to keep track of how very many
terrorist attacks were accompanied by 'training exercizes' built
around the very same scenario as actually happened. It happens
in such a high percentage of these cases one could actually
surmise that these are staged so that if anyone stumbles across
the real thing going down and reports it, authorities can just
pooh hooh it with, 'oh that's just that training excersize'.


I think this is already a pretty active point of discussion.

 
471Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Apr 16, 2007, 15:53
I'm not a fan of Cold Fury although I do check it semi-regularly for opposing perspective. Anyway here's an interesting precedent for the structural collapse of Building 7 that I hadn't seen.
 
472Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Mon, Apr 16, 2007, 21:17
And if anyone can provide any evidence that the twin towers impacted with building 7 at all, let alone with the force of exploding torpedoes we might even take this seriously.

BTW water cannot be compressed and explosions underwater close to a structure are unbelievably more powerful than if the explosion had been in air at the same proximity. So the example is very very apples/oranges even if we had some evidence of actual impact from one building to another.

I usually love that blog but I'm real unimpressed with this entry.

 
473Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Apr 17, 2007, 11:34
Gotta love that guy's tagline tho.
 
474nerveclinic
      ID: 34301713
      Tue, Apr 17, 2007, 16:11


Well "Pravda" has an opinion on who caused 9/11.

They published an article a couple of days ago claiming the real reason Imus was fired was because he had threatened to spill the beans on what real secrets lurk concerning 9/11...

In a clear sign of its intent to reign in dissident American media personalities, and their growing influence in American culture, US War Leaders this past week launched an unprecedented attack upon one of their most politically 'connected', and legendary, radio hosts named Don Imus after his threats to release information relating to the September 11, 2001 attacks upon that country.

According to European reports of the events surrounding Don Imus that have gripped the United States this past week, it was during an interview with another American media personality, Tim Russert, who is the host of a television programme frequently used by US War Leaders, wherein while decrying the state of care being given to American War wounded stated, "So those bastards want to keep these boys [in reference to US Soldiers] secret? Let's see how they like it if I start talking about their [in reference to US War Leaders] secrets, starting with 9/11."

Unable to attack such a powerful media figure as Don Imus, directly, the US War Leaders, and as we have seen many times before, resorted to a massive media attack against him using as the reason a racial slur against a US woman's basketball team, but which has been pointed out by other media outlets was not by any means a rare occurrence for the legendary radio icon to make.

But, to the US War Leaders, Don Imus represented the most serious threat, to date, of the growing assault against them by America's media personalities threatening to expose the truths behind the events of September 11, 2001 and the Iraq/Afghanistan Wars...

...It is expected, also, that the US War Leaders actions against Don Imus will have a further chilling affect upon other American media personalities questioning their authority, such as the popular US movie actor, Charlie Sheen, and who was one of the first to question the events of September 11, 2001, and as we can read as reported by New Zealand Herald News Service in their article titled "Charlie Sheen may voice 9/11 documentary", and which says:

"US actor Charlie Sheen is reportedly in talks to narrate an internet documentary that suggests elements of the US government were behind the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center.

Sheen's representatives say he was involved in the production of a new version of Loose Change, a 90-minute conspiracy theory film that has been seen by more than 10 million internet viewers...


link

 
475katietx
      ID: 3810431417
      Tue, Apr 17, 2007, 16:18
lol
 
476nerveclinic
      ID: 34301713
      Tue, Apr 17, 2007, 16:31


I love the way Pravda refers to them as the "US War Leaders"

 
477Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Apr 17, 2007, 16:35
I think there is merit in that Nerve.

His 'scandal' was as substantial as Howard Dean's scream...purely much ado about nothing.

Scary when they can ruin anyone over nothing whenever they want. I mean they can always get the hypersensitive to throw a hissy-fit or find some quirk to mock and ridicule if the media wants to bring someone down.
 
478Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Apr 17, 2007, 16:55
But nobody can find where Imus said this about 9/11.

This website is obviously either a deliberate disinformation outlet or the work of someone with a very over-active imagination, but verification that the Imus story is a hoax was confirmed by readers of 9/11 Blogger, who combed through podcasts of Imus' interviews with Tim Russert, in which he supposedly made the claim that he would expose 9/11 secrets, but drew a complete blank.

Still no word from the BBC on how they were informed that the Soloman Brothers Building (Building 7) had collapsed, 20 minutes before it had actually collapsed. And you can see the building behind the reporter still standing as they say it had already collapsed. link
 
479nerveclinic
      ID: 3831187
      Wed, Apr 18, 2007, 10:35

This website is obviously either a deliberate disinformation outlet or the work of someone with a very over-active imagination, but verification that the Imus story is a hoax was confirmed by readers of 9/11 Blogger

I thought the web page was the English version of Pravda which is the official Russina mouth piece newspaper.

 
480Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Apr 18, 2007, 11:55
I thought the web page was the English version of Pravda which is the official Russina mouth piece newspaper.

It is, but the article is from an opinion columnist:

As of early Monday afternoon, Drudge still carried a headline entitled, 'Pravda: Imus fired after threat to reveal 9/11 secrets' - which links to the Pravda website reprint of an article written by "Sorcha Faal," who runs a website which also claims that Turkey has shot down a U.S. warplane, that Vladimir Putin is responsible for a 70% reduction in the population of bees across the U.S., and also solicits donations on behalf of the "Sisters of the Order" under the pretense of saving the earth from cosmic destruction.

IMO, this story is pretty minor, but the BBC story linked in #478 is huge. The BBC said they had lost all copies of their 9/11 programming. And they had a live feed from NYC. And people suck this up as if it is somehow believable.
 
481Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Apr 18, 2007, 12:19
Most networks don't keep airchecks for 5+ years.

The one I work for doesn't.
 
482Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, Apr 18, 2007, 17:29


Image isn't loading with normal linkage so in case it doesn't load, cut-n-paste this to a browser...

http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/WTC7Corner.jpg

Well this does in fact look like considerable damage to building 7 prior to demolition or collapse, whichever.

Hard to understand what the owner could have meant when he said the decision had been made to 'pull' the building other than a demolition, and a professional demolition sure doesn't happen in a few hours' notice so this still smells to high heaven.
 
483biliruben
      ID: 52014814
      Wed, Apr 18, 2007, 18:34
Yikes. That's right where I would have been sitting 10 years earlier. SW corner of the 7th floor, looking at the AT&T building, also pictured.
 
484Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 11:18
Add John Kerry to the list of crackpots that think Building 7 was a controlled demolition. link- Warning! This is not a link to something in the Big Media
 
485Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, May 02, 2007, 14:07


Does this photo support the pancake theory of collapse.....kerplunk,kerplunk,kerplunk....one floor falling another,etc. Or does it appear as if there has been some kind of explosion? Stuff projecting way far away from the building. Dick Cheney says there was no explosion.
 
486nerveclinic
      ID: 27051103
      Thu, May 03, 2007, 08:10


Virgin Airlines is now showing the "Loose Change" documentary on their flights.

link

My concern is that there are things in the documentary that will wind up being disprovable and it will discredit other evidence that is otherwise credible.

I just think they jump to too many conclusions.

 
487Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Thu, May 03, 2007, 19:58
Sorry about that picture. You can right click on that little box and click on view image if anyone is interested. Probably not.

We received an interesting e mail from a CNN archivist in Atlanta who stated their utter disbelief at the notion that BBC has lost any of their 9/11 archives.

"I'm an archivist with the CNN News Library in Atlanta, and I can tell you with absolute certainty, the mere idea that news agencies such as ours would "misplace" any airchecks from 9/11 is preposterous. CNN has these tapes locked away from all the others. People like myself, who normally would have access to any tapes in our library, must ask special permission in order to view airchecks from that day. Multiple tapes would have been recording their broadcast that day, and there are also private agencies that record all broadcasts from all channels - constantly - in the event that a news agency missed something or needs something. They don't just have one copy... they have several. It's standard procedure, and as soon as the second plane hit, they would start recording several copies on other tapes machines all day long."

"The only information they need to give out is the source of the collapse claim. No one is saying the BBC is "part of the conspiracy," we're saying that someone gave that reporter the information ahead of time. The source of that information is the only thing they can reveal that would be meaningful."
link
 
488Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, May 03, 2007, 21:30
Interesting. I've worked with and known a good number of the CNN archivists for several years.

Anyway, I guess I don't have any reason to doubt that CNN specifically kept all their 9/11 airchecks. I could call over there Monday morning to see if anyone will confirm that (and that they have to ask for special permission to view them). But that doesn't mean that BBC kept theirs. As I've said, the cable news network I work for does not keep airchecks from that long ago and I'd bet that most of the 9/11 tapes wound up at the bottom of forgotten piles on people's desks, anyway.

I'm also very familiar with television monitoring services. there are two primary agencies; VMS and Multivision. If I remember correctly, VMS keeps material on file for 60 or 90 days. You can count on stuff from Multivision from as far back as 6 months and sometimes you can luck out and they'll still have stuff from a year ago, but that's it.

I know there are other, smaller private archives out there, recording from far fewer sources and always less reliable.
 
489nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Fri, May 04, 2007, 06:13

But that doesn't mean that BBC kept theirs. As I've said, the cable news network I work for does not keep airchecks from that long ago and I'd bet that most of the 9/11 tapes wound up at the bottom of forgotten piles on people's desks, anyway.

I'm also very familiar with television monitoring services. there are two primary agencies; VMS and Multivision. If I remember correctly, VMS keeps material on file for 60 or 90 days. You can count on stuff from Multivision from as far back as 6 months and sometimes you can luck out and they'll still have stuff from a year ago, but that's it.


With all due respect MITH with your experience in the industry...this is one of the most important events in world history. Not to mention some of the most incredible documentary footage ever taken in the history of television.

I find the notion that a news company would just let this type of footage wind up in the garbage preposterous.

There is no way you are going to convince me.

This footage will be viewed periodically (Anniversaries etc) for generations to come.

It's not just "average" news.

I don't buy your argument whether you work in the industry or not.

 
490Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 04, 2007, 09:39
With all due respect MITH with your experience in the industry... I find the notion that a news company would just let this type of footage wind up in the garbage preposterous.

Well I (or my experience in the industry) must not be due all that much respect if I'm so easily dismissed as preposterous. That's OK. :)

I haven't tried to convince anyone that BBC didn't keep their 9/11 airchecks (I don't work for BBC, so of course I wouldn't know) only that its reasonable that they might not have. Like I said, we don't have ours. Or maybe you think that's preposterous, too.

Airchecks are used primarily for operational quality control purposes to check on the work of directors and ensure feeds and video are cut to cleanly and to overall make sure the product looks and sounds the way they expect it to.

How often do you see on-air video from cable TV news in documentaries? Occassionally, I'm sure. Maybe there was some in Farenheit 9/11? If so, I doubt Moore got it from the networks themselves. We've now had 5 anniversaries since 9/11/01. How many times have you seen cable news on-air video from that morning replayed for an anniversary or any other event?

I'm also beginning to question the validity of the CNN archivist's letter. Over the past few years, most of CNN's material goes onto a server and the tapes get reused or chucked. Sounds a little odd that if they kept the 9/11 airchecks, it wouldn't go on the server.
 
491Perm Dude
      ID: 4645347
      Fri, May 04, 2007, 09:53
A lot of that stuff ends up in archival services, who store as much as they can. My experience (in rights) is that these archival services in the past have done so in return for collecting fees from others who might want to use footage in for-profit activities like movies, etc.

I don't know of any network who stores their own stuff very long themselves--maybe 9/11 was a special case for CNN.

I don't think the stuff gets all tossed everywhere, but probably at the network themselves. Copies are saved, however, for a lot of reasons in addition to the possible revenue stream of later rights sales. News organizations are at the risk of lawsuit all the time, even years later. Having copies of particular broadcasts is protection against many of these suits.
 
492Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 04, 2007, 10:26
Another issue I have with the claims re BBC: isn't there a decent chance that a simple Lexis Nexis search could clear up the issue rather easily?
 
493Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, May 04, 2007, 12:43
The BBC said they lost their 9/11 tapes due to a cock-up. I think that means screw-up. They meant to keep them, but due to a screw-up they were not able to. Their excuse was not that they routinely throw them out. The point is not that they lost them......they didn't. The point is what they show. And that is their reporting of Building 7 having collapsed 26 minutes before it actually collapsed. Which would lead a reasonable person to ask "I wonder where the BBC got the information that Building 7 had collapsed." The BBC has not answered this question to date. They seem to think they do not have to answer it, because they lost all their copies of 9/11 tapes. Even though a million people have now seen it on the Internet.

Interestingly there has been no coverage of this in the Big Media. One would think that a rival network would show it just to embarrass the BBC. Reporting that a 47 story building had collapsed while the building is still standing behind the reporter. It doesn't get any better than that. Eyewitness video evidence that the BBC is completely incompetent at reporting the news. Maybe they'll show it on Bloopers in about 5 years.

IMO, one of the biggest reasons I think Building 7 was exploded is because of the complete Big Media news blackout of anything re: Building 7. Do you know they have rebuilt WTC 7 at 52 stories. Anybody heard this story? One would think this would be a huge story with a national dedication. In your face terrorists...we have already rebuilt this building, bigger and better. I don't think it was a big story. The 911 Commission report makes no mention of the 47 story 800 million dollar Building 7 collapsing on itself in 7 seconds. The main reason for this is because if they do not mention it, it may go away. Not as long as I can still type.


 
494Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Fri, May 04, 2007, 17:02
I still would like to hear a plausible explanation as to why the government would detonate that building.
 
495Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Fri, May 04, 2007, 17:07
#494

Do you mean to say that you don't think destroying incriminating evidence concerning SEC investigations, for example, is a plausible explanation, or that you weren't aware of all the sensitive information stored in that building?
 
496Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Fri, May 04, 2007, 17:22
Do you mean to say that you don't think destroying incriminating evidence concerning SEC investigations, for example, is a plausible explanation, or that you weren't aware of all the sensitive information stored in that building?

Why explode the building? Why not just delete the electronic copies of the files and shred the physical ones?

Then am I to believe that they had the building wired, waiting, just waiting for the right time to blow it up? C'mon. It would've been just a lot easier to do what I mentioned above.

If that is not the case and they deliberately orchestrated 9/11 to detonate Building 7, that is certainly way over the top to destroy some files.
 
497Perm Dude
      ID: 4645347
      Fri, May 04, 2007, 17:30
No--they need not have orchestrated 9/11 to deliberately blow the building--it was just the reason it happened. One doesn't have to believe that the government did both.

My point in #436 hasn't changed.
 
498Doug
      ID: 422281412
      Fri, May 04, 2007, 23:20
Re #485... a large plume of dust/smoke jettisoned from the side of the building... could it be from an explosion? Sure.

Could it be dust/smoke pressurized from the thousands of tons of collapsing material above it finding a release on that particular floor (maybe due to an elevator shaft or fire escape door was left open creating a "weak spot", or maybe it just took that many downward floors to build to sufficient pressure to burst outward, or whatever... basically sort of like an upside down volcano) and thus jettisoning that pressurized air/material ahead of the exterior "visual" collapse? Sure.

In fact, for all we know, the interior of the building has already begun to collapse on that floor... our view is blocked by the "shell" of the exterior. Or not. Seriously, anyone who pretends to know what would happen in extreme circumstances such as this is suspect IMHO. I'd even give a structural engineer or whatever other expert a heavy dose of skepticism... there's no "test case" for something like this... and terribly insufficient data on the interior state of the building on various floors at time of collapse to be able to state anything definitively IMHO. Everything put forward has to become conjecture at some point... educated guesses perhaps, but guesses nonetheless.

The reality is, most people have already made up minds on this issue one way or the other and will decide which of explanation makes sense to them by looking at it through the lens of what they've already determined for themselves.

Fit the facts to the theory. It seems to be human nature. I'm probably just as guilty than the next guy in this regard (I make a sincere effort not to be, but alas I am fallible).

Anyway, my opinion on this is there's nothing at all terribly remarkable about the area indicated by the arrow... any more than there is a chunk of material on the other side of the building that appears to have "fallen faster" than the rest. I think any critical thinker could come up with several plausible scenarios for how something like this would happen (the plume of smoke or the faster-falling-piece), none of which would probably be accurate to the actual explanation of what happened.

IMHO, it basically comes down to this:

Two of the tallest buildings in the world had been hit by planes... they burned at hundreds of degrees for some period of time... and then each fell apart and crashed to the ground. When that happens, the collapsing process tends to be somewhat chaotic and asymmetrical, and plumes of smoke will happen.
 
499Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Sat, May 05, 2007, 08:46
Doug, those are some good points. I wish that arrow wasn't in the picture. That was not my point, and the plumes of smoke are a separate argument. There are better pictures and videos to show that.

I was just asking people to look at the general overall picture and decide which theory of collapse it seems to support. To me, it does not look like a picture you would see, under the gravity induced, plop, plop, plop, pancake theory. What would cause all that stuff to be projecting so far from the building. What is causing all those clouds? It just looks like there has been some kind of explosion to me. But, I am a conspiracy theorist.

Re: PD #436,497 ....You think Building 7 was blown up? This is shocking. I'm sure you are aware that this is not the politically correct position. IMO, you take the PC position on 99% of all issues. I looked up politcally incorrect on Wikipedia....they had a picture of you typing at your computer. Perm Chap would be a better name...then you could be PC. Some day, it may become the PC position. (Please note, I do not do the squiggly lines/punctuation that denote humor,etc. There would probably be some inserted above.)
 
500Perm Dude
      ID: 4645347
      Sat, May 05, 2007, 09:38
B7: I've held that position fairly consistently. I'm not sure what you mean by "PC" -- perhaps you are accusing me, as Baldwin does everytime he wakes up, of simply following the zeitgeist.
 
501nerveclinic
      ID: 27051103
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 07:53

How often do you see on-air video from cable TV news in documentaries? Occasionally, I'm sure. Maybe there was some in Fahrenheit 9/11? If so, I doubt Moore got it from the networks themselves.

I don't know of any network who stores their own stuff very long themselves--maybe 9/11 was a special case for CNN.

Well this interesting because I think MITH above said he knows someone who works in archives at CNN. Well I dated someone who has worked there for years (At least a dozen) so maybe you know her also MITH. In any case, unfortunately we are not exactly on speaking terms.

I bring this up just to make the point that she told me they store lots and lots of old news and other networks actually call and say...hey do you have footage of blah, blah, blah?

Her department would find the footage and then sell the other network the rights to use it. She said they kept lots and lots of stuff on all subjects. It was actually a profit generating division for CNN. She's based in Atlanta.

She actually told me that some stuff went to Michael Moore under the table, unauthorized, off the record for his 9/11 movie.





 
502Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 09:38
I was talking about airchecks, Nerveclinic. Please try to keep up.

CNN runs a newsgathering service that allows affiliates access to it's archive, which of course is extensive.
 
503Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, May 07, 2007, 20:09
MITH - Sorry to be behind, but could you define what an "aircheck" is.
 
504Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 09:58
Its a taped copy of the finished on-air product. It will have the network logo, news crawl and any other graphics included on the screen, any voiceover by the anchors and cuts to talking heads. Its a copy of exactly what a network put on the air at that time.

When affiliate nets contact CNN's newsgathering service (CNN NewSource) for video, they don't ask for or receive airchecks. There's no reason for why WCVB in Boston, for example, would want to air CNN's finished product on their own local news program. They ask for either a completed package (a 2-5 min video with various elements put together to explain a news story with a reporter voiceover), VO (for 'video') a raw video clip from an event or a SOT ('sound on tape') which will be video of someone relevent to a story giving a sound byte.
 
505Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 19:14
Ahh..thanks, MITH. Makes sense.
 
506Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 19:35
In radio, air checks are used by program directors to critique the air talents' performance.
I remember my first air check session, where the PD chided me for giving the weather and always using degrees, as in high today will be 85 degrees, overnight low 57 degrees. Degrees is a wasted word, he said. Today's high - 85, overnight low - 57. Of course it's degrees.

Air checks are also part of an air talent's resume when job hunting. Those are usually edited.
 
507Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 19:47
Heh. Whenever I see/hear the phrase "air talent" I think of Bill Murray in "Groundhog Day"
 
508Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 20:10
I'll have to rent that and see how many times Murray says "degrees" in his weathercasts.
 
509Perm Dude
      ID: 28429821
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 22:39
I don't know how it works in TV, but in radio djs will often compile their own airchecks by bringing in a cassette tape to plug into the board. When the mic is switched on, the tape plays automatically, then goes off when the mic goes off.
 
510Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 22:58
Sheesh, everybody's an expert. All I know is that when yer really air talented you just might get a golden microphone. 8]
 
511Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 08, 2007, 23:04
TV talent put together polished edited reels compiled from airchecks from recent programs.
 
512nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Thu, May 10, 2007, 06:43


MITH post 504...Oh, yeah, I thought we were talking about archives this whole time, you can pretty much disregard everything I've said on this particular subject.
 
513Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, May 10, 2007, 08:26
Well understand it is BBC's airchecks from 9/11 that they claim they no longer have.

All I've argued to this point is that, contrary to some assertions, this claim is not absurd.
 
514Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, May 21, 2007, 13:33
I have a question on how breaking news is handled in the newsroom in general. For instance if I called in and said the Statue of Liberty had collapsed 5 minutes ago......they would probably want to verify that before having their anchor lady report it and have the info scroll across the screen. I imagine they would take my name and contact info also.

So, clearly the BBC received info from somewhere that Building 7 had collapsed. Wouldn't they keep a record of who told them that? Would they keep a record of their verification efforts?

If it came over the AP wire, would they still verify it? Are there any scenerios where they would not verify it?
 
515Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, May 21, 2007, 14:18
BBC has a NYC Bureau with a newsroom equipped with NYPD and FDNY scanners. They may have also had their own field crews on the ground by then.

I don't know whether BBC operates a newsgathering service that includes any NYC affiliates. If so, then those local stations in NYC will act as a BBC news affiliate, feeding them information, tape and live video. If not, then they almost undoubtedly subscribe to one or more of the major American news gathering services, CNN NewSource, NBC NewsChannel, CBS Newspath, etc., all of which have NYC locals among their service affiliates.

Wouldn't they keep a record of who told them that? Would they keep a record of their verification efforts?

I don't believe our newsroom does and I don't believe breaking news records like that are typically filed. A responsible report of breaking news will include the source of the reported information (i.e. "news crews on the ground are reporting now that WTC 7 has just collapsed").

The AP is considered a reliable source and is responsible for verifying information before feeding it to outlets. So to my knowledge outlets will usually not seek further verification before reporting it, themselves. Typically, if the AP distributes inaccurate information that gets reported by other outlets, its the AP that takes the heat.

A standard practice of verifying AP and other wire service reports would mean always being the last outlet to report breaking news.
 
516Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, May 21, 2007, 14:23
Sorry, I didn't mean to say that I know that BBC has FDNY and NYPD scanners in their NYC bureau newsroom. They might.
 
517Doug
      ID: 422281412
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 03:22
I think any attempt to analyze 9/11 new coverage in light of "normal operating procedures" is folly. Sure, it can help understand, but it is my understanding that many of the people working for the BBC and other news organizations are, in fact, human beings. As such the gravity and adrenaline and intensity of emotion on that day certainly clouded the judgements, words, perceptions, etc. of even professional news journalists. Think back to the famous reporting of the Hindenburg by Herbert Morrison... at first he's narrating the tragedy but by the end of it:

"I told you...I can't even talk to people...around there. It's -- I can't talk, ladies and gentlemen. Honest, it's just laying there, a mass of smoking wreckage, and everybody can hardly breathe and talk...I, I'm sorry. Honest, I can hardly breathe. I'm going to step inside where I cannot see it. Charlie, that's terrible. I -- Listen folks, I'm going to have to stop for a minute, because I've lost my voice...This is the worst thing I've ever witnessed....."

And that was just a dirigible.

Granted on 9/11 the report in question was hours after the initial massive WTC collapses, and people may have collected themselves a bit to not be in quite such a panic, but you take my meaning... I'm sure people were rattled to the core. To try and analyze things at such a level just doesn't make sense, especially once we consider Occam's Razor.

Hypothetical Scenario:

Fire crews have been dealing with a massive disaster and just seen many of their men killed in the collapse of the two towers, and evidence suggests that another building is on the brink of doing the same... so the chief says to pull the men out of the building because it's coming down.

Someone relays that message and says to pull the crews from the building, which may at some point may or may not have been abbreviated to "pull the building". At the same time some BBC or AP rep calls NYFD for an official update on Building 7 and is told "it's coming down" (the hypothetical actual words of the chief). Said rep takes that to literally mean it's collapsing as they speak, and by the time the BBC on-air personality reports it a few moments later it's reasonably stated as "Building 7 has collapsed."

Isn't that a rather straightforward, completely understandable, reasonable, and simple explanation, particularly in light of events of the day? Contrasted to the Rube Goldbergian conspiracy theories of the "real" planes being diverted and the people on them held/killed by the government, along with pre- positioned demolitions and on and on and on and on? I mean, I'm totally in favor of healthy skepticism... but I also think there comes a point when skepticism turns unhealthy... when it essentially (inadvertantly in most cases) becomes the end rather than the means.
 
518nerveclinic
      ID: 27051103
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 03:47


Doug Contrasted to the Rube Goldbergian conspiracy theories of the "real" planes being diverted and the people on them held/killed by the government

Did you watch the "Loose Change" video?

 
519Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 09:19
Whatever the hypothetical scenerio was.....why don't thet just say so. The BBC continues to act as if it did not happen. And nobody else in Big Media deems it newsworthy. Just add it to the 200+ anomolies on 911.

Thanks for the info on the newsroom. I watched the video again and they do not mention a source. One would think that if someone relied on this misinformation that Building 7 had collapsed and went down to ground zero and Building 7 collapsed on top of them......I imagine the BBC would recall where it came from. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

A responsible report of breaking news will include the source of the reported information

There was no source reported and today when the BBC is shown what idiots they look like by reporting that Building 7 had collapsed when it is clearly visible behind the reporter telling the world that it collapsed.....they still do not have a source.
 
520Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 11:07
debunking911.com

Site that attempts to debunk many of the Building 7 conspiracy theories. There's a lot of stuff there, including a stop-frame timed video of the collapse, claiming to show that the building actually took a lot longer to collapse than the theorists claim. Here's what they offer regarding the BBC video:
With the lack of even the smallest amount of hard evidence supporting their stories, conspiracy theorists have become more desperate to find anything which could be twisted to support them. Case in point: The WTC 7 was seen in the background of a BBC report while the reporter said the building had already collapsed. The story is that the reporters were given a "script" to say and these reporters stupidly read the lines before the building fell. Plain old common sense can dispatch this conspiracy story.

Why do they choose to believe the more unlikely conspiracy story which suggests that at least some reporters of some news organizations were given a script? Especially when, much more logically, miscommunication could easily explain the video.

Why in the WORLD would they need to give the reporters a head's up??? Why wouldn't they just blow the building up and let them report the collapse as they would have normally?

What most likely, logically happened: While investigating and updating information on the collapse of the towers, someone at the BBC was given a report/press release that building 7 was going to collapse. [Edit: we now know they were monitoring the news from different outlets and that's where they learned of building 7.] According to the fire department, by 2:00PM they knew the building would soon collapse. Reporters KNEW this well before the collapse because there are videos of reporters talking about it before it happened. So we KNOW reporters were given information on WTC 7's imminent demise. We can conclude from this evidence that the fire department relayed information to reporters that the building was going to collapse. By the time the report reached the reporter at the BBC, it may have simply been miscommunicated from "About to collapse" to "Has collapsed". She even starts out by saying "Details are very, very sketchy". That alone should put this to rest. She didn't say 'Sketchy'. She didn't say 'very sketchy'. She said "very, very sketchy".
It wouldn't be the first time reporters got something so completely wrong. They said it was a small plane at first, remember? They said Kerry choose Gephardt for VP, remember? They told the family members of trapped mine workers that their 13 loved ones were alive, all but one, when it was the other way around. Those are just a few glaring examples. I could go on... Reporters rush to be the first one with the news and often do a poor job of getting the facts straight. History is littered with examples of this. Even your average knuckle dragging, cave dwelling Neanderthal knows this. (My sincerest apologies Geico's Neanderthal man...)

Listen to Aaron Brown from CNN say the building collapsed or is collapsing with the building in the background.



I have had on this site since I started it (just under the 12 things we know for sure on this very page) the link to a video with someone from MSNBC saying “What we’ve been fearing all afternoon has finally happened.” As the building collapses. That makes CNN, BBC and MSNBC who knew the building was going to collapse. I searched for the MSNBC video because I remembered the media saying the building would collapse before it did. Here is that video again...

How many people knew that building was Building 7 before that day? It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect every reporter to know the names of all the buildings in the World Trade Center. For all they may have known, building 7 could have been one of the smaller buildings which were also on fire.

The downright absurd conspiracy story: The government told many reporters to report something they would have reported anyway after the building collapsed.

A little critical thinking is all that's needed to debunk this nonsense. Why in the world would they make an already unbelievably massive conspiracy into one involving reporters who would LOVE a scoop like that? "Sept. 9, 2001 - EXCLUSIVE BREAKING NEWS! Government about to murder thousands for oil! We have the script!" Can you imagine the job offerings after a scoop like that? Can you say Pulitzer prize? What a hero! Who would pass that up to help a shadowy government commit the mass murder of Americans? This would be MUCH bigger than Watergate! Or maybe this was a planed gaffe to expose this plot? Are we to believe this gaffe is the only way she could have told us? A method which could easily be dismissed as typical poor reporting?

And here is the kicker... Did they really need even MORE people involved? What was the reason they absolutely needed to tell the reporters this? Why haven't any of the other reporters talked? Are most reporters part of a mass murder scheme? How much can conspiracy theorists swallow?

At best, this is an attempt to take your minds off the real issue. Why did the media know the WTC 7 was going to collapse if there were just a few small fires? This is another part of the conspiracy story they don't want you to think about.

Do the conspiracy theorist leaders have one shred of REAL evidence of explosives or anything else which could take down the buildings? Air samples with trace explosive chemicals in it? A memo like the Downing Street memo? A whistleblower who was in on the planning maybe? None of that involves the so called "whisked away steel". They have nothing. They're left to scour the internet for the slightest mistake made by anyone on that horrific, chaotic day. They're left destroying peoples' lives by suggesting innocent people are involved in mass murders.
They go on to post links to BBC's response and several updates and then offer the following, as further evidence that everyone knew hours before the Building 7 collapse that it was coming down:
Update:

Here is a first responder with Building 7 in the background during an interview. Note the frustration in his voice because he can't do anything for the building.



First responder: "You see where the white smoke is? You see this thing leaning like this? It's definitely coming down. There's no way to stop it. Cause you have to go up in there to put it out and it already - the structural integrity is just not there in the building. It's tough, it's.. it's.. You know we can handle just about anything, this is beyond...
There are other videos and diagrams there to counter various other arguments. Sorry for spamming this thread with stuff that can all be found just by clicking the link but I wanted to get it in here.

For the record, I haven't invested my faith in either side of this debate. There are, in my opinion, some legitimate questions that aren't quite satisfied by the best attempted answers. But not enough so to convince me of a coverup. The coverup theories leave enough unanswered questions of their own. So for now I'll remain unconvinced of anything.
 
521Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 11:09
Btw, links in the blockquote text above are as they appear on the page at debunking911.com.
 
522Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 13:48
She even starts out by saying "Details are very, very sketchy". That alone should put this to rest. She didn't say 'Sketchy'. She didn't say 'very sketchy'. She said "very, very sketchy".

The details were not sketchy at all. The building is clearly still standing behind her.

The story is that the reporters were given a "script" to say and these reporters stupidly read the lines before the building fell. Plain old common sense can dispatch this conspiracy story.

That story was never advocated here that I can tell. It just seems like a reasonable question to ask....who told the BBC that Building 7 had collapsed. If that makes the questioner a conspiracy theorist then I guess one can pretty much not ask any questions any more.

Building 7 completely collapsed in less than 7 seconds. A brick dropped off the roof would arrive at the ground at roughly the same time as the roof. This can only happen via explosives IMO. And Isaac Newton's opinion.

I can post pictures of buildings with far, far , greater damage than Building 7 that did not collapse. No steel building has ever collapsed due to fire. Perhaps the NIST final report on Building 7 will explain what happened. It has now taken 5.5 years to complete that report.


 
523Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 14:30
who told the BBC that Building 7 had collapsed. If that makes the questioner a conspiracy theorist then I guess one can pretty much not ask any questions any more.

You're not a conspiracy theorist? You mean to say that you're not convinced that Building 7 was a controlled deomlition? You mean you entertain the notion that the collapse may have managed to violate your understanding of Newton's laws of motion?

Anyway, I was in the newsroom that day. All day long, information came fast and furious and inaccuracies were reported at every turn. Major TV signal transmission lines were severed in in the attack, leaving me helpless in my responsibilites as I remember and greatly adding to the already terribly difficult task of sorting through info as it came in bunches. Perhaps if you had experienced the frantic atmosphere of trying to cover that event you might be less convinced of the significance of the BBC report. Rumors had spread quickly. Just look at the Rotoguru thread from that morning. There were reports that planes had been shot down, that the WH had been bombed, a suicide bombing at Camp David, a crash in Cleveland, that the Japanese Red Army claimed responsibility. How did all of those things get reported? Where did those news outlets get that information?

My best guess is that a producer in the newsroom or control room heard several live TV reports on other networks that Building 7 was about to come down or would come down any time and misunderstood what he was hearing and sent a reporter on the air with it.
 
524Perm Dude
      ID: 10414228
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 14:31
This can only happen via explosives IMO

A building detonated by explosives will not fall any quicker than a brick falling that distance. Explosives, however, will help contain the debris field, and ensure that a building collapses completely.

It would be useful, I think, to at least take the time to read over MITH's link, particularly with regard to the time it took to collapse, before cherry-picking MITH's quotes.
 
525Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 14:49
I never understood the idea that a building falling in a controlled demo will fall at an unimpeded rate while a building falling from damage such as that which Building 7 incurred will take much longer.


Regardless, courtesty of debunking911.com:
Seismograph trace of the collapse of WTC 7 indicates that parts of the building were hitting the ground for 18 seconds. This means the collapse took at least 18 seconds, of which only the last approximately 15 seconds are visible in videos: 8 seconds for the penthouses and 7 seconds for the north wall to come down.
They link to Firehouse.com - Technology and the Terrorist Attacks: Part 3
 
526Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 22:19
I don't know why this should strike anyone as a mystery. An uncontrolled collapse will happen as a sequence of collapses as one structural failure leads to another weakness and subsequent collapse.

Buildings are 'overbuilt'. They have margins for error. They are going to try and stand even when they have taken partial damage.

Demolitions also have planned sequences but when a stage goes, it goes completely.

 
527Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 22:52
According to that debunkers link the Collapse of the South Tower was 10 seconds and the Collapse of the North Tower was 8 seconds. This is like free fall speed. This is incredibly fast for a 110 story building. Why do you think the floors below the airplane hit would turn to jello? Why would they provide no resistance? This speed of collapse has never been explained by the governmant conspiracy theory.
 
528Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 22, 2007, 23:36
I don't know. But I don't know anything about what happens to a building's structural integrity in a partial collapse or in a controlled demolition or why they should vary.

 
529Doug
      ID: 422281412
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 04:31
> Did you watch the "Loose Change" video?

Yes. I would say one can consider it pseudo-science, at best... more accurately one hell of a get-rich scam by the guys who made it, preying on people's emotions. It's a dirty way to do it, but frankly, that's capitalism. The bad comes with the good. Out of curiousity, have you ever watched the "Screw Loose Change" video?

IMHO, Carl Sagan is probably rolling in his grave that we still have people who in our society who are swayed by the sorts of arguments the "Loose Change" video uses. (OK, not literally rolling... just a figure of speech).

Aside: I happen to have a copy of "Demon Haunted World" dedicated to me and signed by the man himself... one of my most prized posessions... Sagan is a true hero of mine. My second most prized posession is probably a photo that my dad took of Einstein back around 1950. That said, I necessarily don't claim to have any more authority or knowledge of Sagan's perspective than anyone else who has read his writings... it just seemed the appropriate place for a what I though was a pretty cool anecdote. :)

> Just add it to the 200+ anomolies on 911.

Come on, you can do better than that. I count least 911 anomolies. COINCIDENCE!?!?!?

> The details were not sketchy at all. The building is clearly still standing behind her.

I see. And, um... was she intimately familiar with the New York skyline to the point she could recognize "building 7" by looking that direction? (rhetorical question) Did she even LOOK in that direction, or was she, as reporters are wont to do, focus on the camera and read/repeat what she'd presumably been handed/told?

Look, I said before, I'm all for healthy skepticism. Heavily in favor, in fact. But when simple, reasonable explanations for a question are provided and dismissed (or are treated with undying skepticism), then that is taking it to an extreme where it no longer becomes constructive, and, IMHO, not a path that will lead one to "truth", as all facts/info/explanations are being interpreted in light of a predetermined end.

In my experience, logic or rational/critical thinking will rarely (if ever) refute someone who has taken that mindset, whether it's 9/11 or OJ or WMDs in Iraq... nor convince them to reconsider their position. In fact, it makes me a bit testy, as evidenced in the "anomolies" comment above. (It's actually "anomalies", btw).

In short, from my perspective, I think there's little benefit to further discussion of it... because unless some new evidence emerges that I perceive as giving some validity to conspiracy claims/inquisitions, I'm not going to change my position that the answer to what happened is: "the obvious". There just isn't any evidence I've seen that has a non-straightforward reasonable explanation to it consistent with what most people believe to have occurred. COULD it be possible that there was a conspiracy? Sure, I don't dispute that, and I'm not claiming definitively that there wasn't. I don't think I could EVER definitively make that claim... it's unprovable. But when I just don't see any evidence of it, despite many people looking very hard for a very long time trying to find it... at some point I think the appropriate thing to do is decide that we're probably looking for something that doesn't exist.

Similarly I don't anticipate any luck in swaying the minds of others who feel differently than I do... and unlike most issues, I don't even really see any benefit to further discussion of it once we've essentially agreed to disagree.

None of this is really intended as a criticism of anyone/anything, just my observation and explanation as to why I expect that I will furthermore be silent on this topic. :)
 
530Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 05:40
According to that debunkers link the Collapse of the South Tower was 10 seconds and the Collapse of the North Tower was 8 seconds. This is like free fall speed. This is incredibly fast for a 110 story building. Why do you think the floors below the airplane hit would turn to jello? Why would they provide no resistance? This speed of collapse has never been explained by the governmant conspiracy theory. - #527

Despite the odd puffs of smoke and flashes that have been seen on the recordings, the rapid collapse of the 2 towers is not that hard to envision without controlled domolition. With that design once pancaking begins there isn't going to be anything that can stop it and it proceeds in an orderly way floor by floor so I wouldn't expect any hangups that would delay such a collapse midway, unlike building 7 where I would have expected a very uneven process.
 
531ukula
      ID: 44472314
      Wed, May 23, 2007, 15:50
George Bush and Dick Cheney would never lie to us. Besides Oil, Haliburton, the Military-Industrial Complex, and the New World Order, they have absolutely nothing to gain from creating a 9/11. It must have happened exactly the way they told us it happened.
 
532nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Thu, May 24, 2007, 05:21

Doug that kind of a dismissal of the video in post 529 doesn't really fly here.

You say there are problems with the science in the video, by all means give us some concrete examples of exactly what you mean so we can all share your knowledge.

You dismissed the evidence presented as worthless without showing why the evidence isn't valid.




 
533Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, May 24, 2007, 09:55
I still haven't seen an explanation for why a demolished building will fall faster than some claim Building 7 should have fallen.

With that design once pancaking begins there isn't going to be anything that can stop it... unlike building 7 where I would have expected a very uneven process.

What do you know about the design of building 7 Here's what debunking911.com has on that issue:
Conspiracy sites like to bring up the 'Symmetric Collapse' of building 7 and claim that the building should have fallen over to the south. They show grainy, dark photos of debris piles which were taken well after 9/11 and a debris pile with a grayish, smoky image of building 7 in the background. They deceptively show the north side which was relatively free of damage. As if the Tower should have reached over to the other side of the building and damaged that side too.

Here is what the debris pile looked like just after 9/11



Eerily, the north face is on the debris pile as if a shroud were laid gently over the dead building. It fell over after the majority of the building fell. This indicates that the south side of the building fell before the north. It's almost as if the buildings last words were "[This] did it!..".

And now comes the most important and telling fact in this photo. Note the west side (Right side in this photo) of the north face is pointing toward the east side (Left side of this photo) where the penthouse was. What caused this? It would not be unreasonable to expect the building to fall toward the path of least resistance. The path of least resistance in this case would be the hole in the back of the building and the hole left by the penthouse. Since the penthouse was on the east and the 20 story hole in the middle, that would make the east and middle the path of least resistance. The conspiracy sites agree with this theory but say it never happened. They say the fact that it didn't happen helps prove controlled demolition. But you see it happen here... What will they say now?

"But the building doesn't look like it fell over, it fell "in its own foot print" you might say. That's because it is impossible for a 47 story steel building to fall over like that. It's not a small steel reinforced concrete building like the ones shown as *Examples* of buildings which fell over. Building 7 is more like the towers, made up of many pieces put together. It's not so much a solid block as those steel reinforced concrete buildings.
 
534Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Fri, May 25, 2007, 17:24
They sure get a whole lot more out of that picture than I do. I'll have to watch the video again and see if they have a point.
 
535Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Sat, May 26, 2007, 00:04


On the night of February 12, 2005, a fire started in the Windsor building in Madrid, Spain, a 32-story tower framed in steel-reinforced concrete. At its peak, the fire, which burned for almost a day, completely engulfed the upper ten stories of the building. More than 100 firefighters battled to prevent the uncontrollable blaze from spreading to other buildings.

 
536Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sat, May 26, 2007, 00:13
debunking911.com addresses this as well. Along with the 56 story Parque Central building in Caracas, Venezuela
 
537Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Sat, May 26, 2007, 08:33
A challenge to conspiracy theorist:

1) Find a steel frame building at least 40 stories high

2) Which takes up a whole city block

3) And is a "Tube in a tube" design

4) Which came off its core columns at the bottom floors (Earthquake, fire, whatever - WTC 7)

5) Which was struck by another building or airliner and had structural damage as a result.

6) And weakened by fire for over 6 hours

7) which had trusses that were bolted on with two 5/8" bolts.

And after all seven tests are met the building didn't fall down.

Anything less than meeting these seven tests is dishonest because it's not comparing apples with apples.
 
538Perm Dude
      ID: 844269
      Sat, May 26, 2007, 10:04
The real differences are the intensity of the fire (airplane fuel burns much hotter) and the design type.

Getting hit by the airplane is a wash. The WTC would be standing if it wasn't for all that fuel-planes that didn't have much fuel wouldn't have brought the towers down by themselves.

Is neglecting these facts in comparing other buildings dishonest? When they are compared straight up, unaccompanied by any explanatory information, you bet. Just like talking about Marvin Bush as being "the head of security for the World Trade Center" (another Loose Change refrain. As you know, Bush left Stratesec in 2000, but that doesn't stop the Loose Change guys from strongly implying that a Bush had direct security connections with the WTC on 9/11.
 
539Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 20:42
Reporter asks question about 911.....Gets thrown out of CNN spin room and then gets arrested At the very end are the conflicting statements by Giuliani that his question was about.

Also, Giuliani spokeman is asked if Rudi has read the 911 commission report. His answer..."I have no idea". Oh that's encouraging. This is the guy running as Mr. 911 hero.

 
540Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 21:30
A couple of mentally troubled trespassers get escorted off of private property.....big deal
 
541Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 21:46
A. There is no evidence they are mentally troubled, one of them was obnoxious maybe.
B. They were clearly not trespassing as they had CNN-issued press passes.
C. It appears as if Rudi Giuiliani has not read the 911 Commission report.
D. Still don't know who told Rudi the tower was going to collapse,and why he didn't tell anyone else.

I thought the whole thing was pretty funny. IMO, these people are not going to go away, and it will be tough for Rudi to do some grass roots campaigning without having to answer some problematic questions about 911.
 
542Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 00:30
The north tower weighed about 500,000 tons. The plane hit on the 95th floor. So the upper portion was 16 floors that weighed less than 15% or 65,000 tons. The steel columns in the upper floors were thinner than the ones in the lower floors because they had to support less weight. According to the NIST report the north tower fell in 11 seconds. If you dropped a bowling ball off the top floor at the same time that the north tower started to fall; it would take a second or two longer to arrive at the bottom. So we have the bowling ball falling, falling, nothing in its way, hauling ass all the way to the bottom in 9.22 seconds. Meanwhile we have this top section of the tower weighing 65,000 tons falling and immediately running into the undamaged bottom section weighing 435,000 tons. According to the always reliable Dick Cheney version of events, this section now plowed thru 94 floors of undamaged steel and concrete, plowing, plowing all the way down and arrived at the bottom a couple seconds later than the bowling ball. Mmmm donuts.

This idea would surely qualify as the most absurd idea ever articulated in modern times in a supposedly scientific document. It is similar to suggesting that if a sports car going 30 MPH ran into the rear of a huge truck stopped at a traffic light, the car would simply continue at the same speed, pushing the truck ahead of it. There's a reason the videos of these buildings look like they are exploding.

Yawn.
 
543Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 07:37
B7: I really enjoy your insights on this. I'm just curious about where you're going with it in terms of how all the pieces fit together.

You seem to take some shots at Cheney, and why not he takes shots at others just ask his hunting buddy, but do you think Cheney was involved in some sort of conspiracy? In what level or capacity?
 
544Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 12:01
Most of the posters on the Political board hate Dick Cheney with a passion. It has to just kill them to have to agree with Cheney on this or any other issue. That is why I refer to the government's Official Conspiracy Theory (OCT) as the Dick Cheney theory. I do not understand why they would automatically put it out of the realm of possibility. These are impeachable charges, if true. But they'll fight tooth and nail to defend the Cheney theory, and call me a conspiracy theorist, and tin foil something. I'm not really understanding that.

Actually there is some evidence against Dick Cheney from the sworn testimony of Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta:

MR. HAMILTON: We thank you for that. I wanted to focus just a moment on the Presidential Emergency Operating Center. You were there for a good part of the day. I think you were there with the vice president. And when you had that order given, I think it was by the president, that authorized the shooting down of commercial aircraft that were suspected to be controlled by terrorists, were you there when that order was given?

MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"

Hamilton indicates that "the orders" were to shoot down commercial aircraft. But Mineta's account makes more sense if "the orders" were not to shoot down any such aircraft. The repeated questioning of Cheney by the junior officer whether "the orders still stand" had to be about whether the order NOT to destroy them still stood. Given the two prior attacks against the Twin Towers using the commercial airliners as weapons, an order to destroy the plane approaching the Pentagon would be the only order to give and would not be subject to question by a junior officer as the plane approached. Furthermore, had Cheney's order been to fire on the plane approaching the Pentagon (which first came near the White House), the anti-missile anti-aircraft capacity of the Pentagon (or White House), would have sufficed to take out that plane, and certainly to have attempted to take out that plane. Neither occurred, and since Mineta does not speak of a last-second change by Cheney, the only supportable conclusion is that Cheney's order was NOT to defend the Pentagon, an order so contrary to both common sense and military defense that it, and it alone, explains the repeated questioning by the junior officer.

By failing to shoot down this incoming plane, Cheney allowed about 125 Pentagon employees to die. The Norman Mineta testimony was not included in the 911 Commission Final report. It has also been ignored by Big Media.
 
545Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 13:02
By failing to shoot down this incoming plane, Cheney allowed about 125 Pentagon employees to die. The Norman Mineta testimony was not included in the 911 Commission Final report. It has also been ignored by Big Media.

Aren't military actions ultimately the President's call? Wouldn't W have to make that specific order and why would or should Cheney have any input on that?
 
546Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 19:50
Whatever the orders were it appeared as if Cheney had the authority to give them. When the young man asks: "Do the orders still stand?" he's asking Cheney, not W.
 
547Pancho Villa
      ID: 10541519
      Sun, Jun 17, 2007, 20:18
As I have reported before, the chain of command clearly states that Rumsfeld as SOD, was directly responsible for response to the hijackings, a policy that had been revised only a few months earlier in June 2001.

The secretary of defense’s specific responsibility in the event of an airplane hijacking was made clear in a July 1997 military instruction, which was slightly revised in June 2001. This stated: “In the event of a hijacking, the NMCC will be notified by the most expeditious means by the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration]. The NMCC will, with the exception of immediate responses as authorized by reference d, forward requests for DOD [Department of Defense] assistance to the secretary of defense for approval.” [15]

Yet Rumsfeld was out of the loop. A few minutes after the NMCC requested that he be added to the air threat conference, the defense secretary’s office reported back that he was nowhere to be found. As Cockburn concludes: “The chain of command was broken.” [16]


 
548Boxman
      ID: 251142612
      Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 09:13
Study Backs Up Feds' Theory of Why World Trade Center Collapsed on Sept. 11

Fruit for thought...or dismissal.
 
549Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 14:47
I can't see where that study adresses the speed of the collapse. I'm conceding for now that the airplanes caused the collapse to start. Although I have serious doubts of that. Let's assume that's true. How would the top part squish the undamaged bottom part which is 6 or 7 times heavier. And not only squish it; but do it so fast that a bowling ball dropped off the top at the same time would drop only one second faster.

One mechanical engineer wrote a peer-reviewd paper that states if you took the top part and lifted it up one entire floor and dropped it on the bottom part, that it would come to a stop in .02 seconds. And the bottom part would not collapse at all. It's way beyond me though.

Scottish mechanical engineer Gordon Ross has provided a quantative
analysis in a technical essay. Having calculated both the velocity (8.5 meters per
second) and the kinetic energy (2.1 GJ) of the 16 upper floors after falling a story
(3.7 meters), Ross concluded that the impact would absorb so much energy that
"vertical movement of the falling section would be arrested....within 0.02 seconds
after impact.

Conclusion:
A collapse driven only by gravity would not continue to progress beyond that point.

Journal of 911 Studies
 
550nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Jun 20, 2007, 15:40

The other factor I still haven't seen explained is the temperature that it takes to melt steel being much higher then the temperature to evaporate jet fuel.

The melting point of steel is so much higher that every time the fuel "melting" the steel is referenced I don't understand how it's possible.

 
551Doug
      ID: 113132214
      Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 05:57
Nothing in the study claims the steel melted. It says it was "weakened".

Take a cold stick of butter out of a refrigerator, and immediately cut it with a knife. Takes some force. You could probably stand the stick on it's end and set a saucepan on top of it, no problem.

Now, let that same stick of butter get "heated" to room temperature of say 70 degrees. It now cuts with minimal effort (perhaps gravity alone if your knife has some weight to it), and I don't recommend attempting to stand a saucepan upon it (nor do I claim any responsiblity if you proceed with this experiment and are severely beaten by your spouse or other living companions as a result).

In other words, we observe the butter was severely weakened without melting. In short, different substances have different properties at different temperatures... and steel is the same way. It's not as if steel maintains it's full "room temperature" integrity all the way up to the "melting point" where it suddenly changes instantly from a rigid load bearing solid to molten. I guess the work of blacksmiths over the centuries would be a more direct example of steel's ability to soften without entirely melting.
 
552nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 16:30
Doug 551

Is the above explanation your own, are you making it up off the top of your head, or are you siting a scientist with expertise in the field?

If you just sort of "came up with it" I'd prefer to hear it from a scientist. The studies I've read by scientists discussing this state that they are puzzled that steel, that has such a high melting point would be effected at all by jet fuel which has an much lower burn rate.

I do like the butter analogy though...definitely A for effort.


 
553Doug
      ID: 113132214
      Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 17:23
The analogy was made up off the top of my head to illustrate some common sense / critical thinking.

A web search yields various values... for example wikipedia says 540° F is the critical temperature for steel, a 9/11 conspiracy site attempting to debunk the idea that jet fuel played a role in the collapse says that the first critical temperature of steel is 1,100° F, "at which point it loses half of it's strength". I found a couple other references in the 500-900° F range. As wikipedia points out, it depends on the type of steel and the given country's standards at the time... there is a wide variety in steel, just like any other substance (i.e., at room temperature a stick of salted butter may support more/less weight than a stick of unsalted butter... which sounds like a fun albeit messy test). ;)

The point is, there's fairly universal agreement that structural steel "weakens" as it is heated, well below it's actual "melting" temperature (which is generally cited as being around 1500° F).

This is all just straight-forward common sense... at least to me, but then I probably do have more of a scientific background than the average joe. (My BA degree is in Mathematical Economics, but I went to a liberal arts college so also studied my share of undergrad-level philosophy, physics, astronomy, etc... and I'll even admit to a course in modern dance, LOL!).

Anyway, using similar multiple online references, it's fairly well established that jet fuel auto-ignites at 410° F. An "open-air" burn of jet fuel (pour on concrete and ignite) is around 500° F, with a max burning temp indicated around 1800° F. Obviously a number of factors more complicated than I can fully comprehend determine the actual burn temperature of a given fire... conditions such as oxygen supply, other materials involved/ignited, air pressure, and so on.

Given the lack of data we have about the post-impact physical, structural, or environmental conditions inside the WTC, I'm not claiming to know precisely how hot it was, nor how hot it needed to be, in order for collapse to occur that day. The specifics are not inherent my point, however, which was simply that the "presence of temperatures at which steel reaches its melting point" are not fundamental to the official explanation. yet I often see the melting point used as a "test" to debunk the official explanation, and I think that it's quite clearly a false requirement to be testing against.
 
554Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 17:58
Nerve the onus is on the conspiracy theorist to show that his conspiracy is valid. No one should bother to have to respond to nonesnse about the melting temperature of steel. Obviously, it isn't necessary for steel to change to liquid form in order for any of the WTC buildings to collapse. The melting point is irrelevant, as is any point you and other conspiracy theorists make regarding the melting point of steel.

For the record, this link claims that steel is plyable enough for forging between 450 and 900 degrees farenheit. In fact, the steel must be heated to between 1333 and 1500 degrees and then cooled to 450 - 900 for the forging process. Of course I don't at what temp it becomes plyable enough for it to fail to hold up a building resting on it or how the steel used in the WTC differs with that which to make knives. But in this short post I've offered more insight into the collapse of the WTC buildings than any pathetic conspiracy theorist who compares the temp of burning jet fuel to the melting point of steel.
 
555Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 18:01
Why you should always hit refresh before posting if it takes you a long time to compose a post.
 
556nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 18:17


Doug a 9/11 conspiracy site attempting to debunk the idea that jet fuel played a role in the collapse says that the first critical temperature of steel is 1,100° F, "at which point it loses half of it's strength".

MITH Nerve the onus is on the conspiracy theorist to show that his conspiracy is valid.

Maybe I have to go back and see the film again but I thought it was scientists making the point and the "CT" were just quoting the scientists (Who were not themselves CT.)

I thought the CT got the original information and idea from various scientists who have questioned the scientific conclusions for the causes of the building collapse.

These were scientists who are experts in these particular fields and did not have a CT history.

I think the scientist Chicken came before the CT egg.

But then I haven't watched the film in at least 6 months.

as far as the CT having the onus of proving the conspiracy is real...did you see the film. Did you watch the entire thing? I think they did a pretty damn good job to make a case that there are serious questions that have yet to be answered.

No?


 
557nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 18:34
As wikipedia points out, it depends on the type of steel and the given country's standards at the time

AH Doug, you sound like a man of reason. Let's use common sense. It's been stated the world trade center was built to with stand the impact of a 707. Clearly we can safely assume that the highest grades of structural steel were used so we can throw out the low end of any numbers.

The first web site that I went to gave these melting temps for steel and while I understand your point that it doesn't need to actually melt...

What's the melting point of steel?

That depends on the alloy of steel you are talking about. The term alloy is almost always used incorrectly these days, especially amongst bicyclists. They use the term to mean aluminum. What the term alloy really means is a mixture of metals, any kind of metals. Almost all metal used today is a mixture and therefore an alloy.

Most steel has other metals added to tune its properties, like strength, corrosion resistance, or ease of fabrication. Steel is just the element iron that has been processed to control the amount of carbon. Iron, out of the ground, melts at around 2750°F. Steel often melts at around 2500°F.


link

 
558Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 18:54
Did you watch the entire thing? I think they did a pretty damn good job to make a case that there are serious questions that have yet to be answered.

What film? Loose Change? I watched the whole thing. They asked some fair questions that raised some eyebrows, enough so that I became open to the possibility that Building 7 may have been a controlled demolition and that there may be more to 9/11 than we are being told (beyond the obviousness of that phrase).

But since I've seen it, I've seen many of those questions answered well enough to satisfy my layman's understanding of the points raised. Since many of these issues are over my head to begin with, I admit that I am not a good judge in determining the validity of the questions or the answers. I can only assess whether it "sounds good" to me. I remain agnostic on this issue (as I've repeatedly said) but less so than right after initially seeing Loose Change.

As much as my distrust of the current administration and government in general feeds my agnostism, know that I have an at least equal distrust of conspiracy theories. Few if any of the theorists on this issue have done anything to assuage that, as they always seem far too happy to buy into these ideas without giving it much thought. There are issues raised in Loose Change that so easily dismissed that you have to wonder about the motive of these people.

Please, watch Loose Change again (or whatever film you refer to if you meant something else) and let us know whether they refer to steel's critical temperature or its melting point.

Here's more - NIST factsheet:
7a. How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren’t hot enough to do so?
OR
7b. Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certified the steel in the WTC towers to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours, how could fires have impacted the steel enough to bring down the WTC towers?

In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.

UL did not certify any steel as suggested. In fact, in U.S. practice, steel is not certified at all; rather structural assemblies are tested for their fire resistance rating in accordance with a standard procedure such as ASTM E 119 (see NCSTAR 1-6B). That the steel was “certified ... to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours” is simply not true.
 
559Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 20:31
From the NIST final report: 8.3.4 Reconstruction of the Fires.......In each tower the fires were initiated simultaneously on multiple floors by ignition of some of the jet fuel from the aircraft. The initial jet fuel fires themselves lasted at most a few minutes. And the obligatory link . After that the fire had to rely on office materials and furnishings for fuel.

One thing you could do is compare it to prior steel building fires. I tried this in post #535 , but it was pooh-poohed because they were not exactly the same. That statement from the debunking site mentioned in post #536-537 makes it impossible to compare two building fires by meeting all 7 of those requirements. One has to wonder are they trying to find out what happened or are they trying to defend the official conspiracy theory at all costs.

When you use the term "conspiracy theory", you need to distiguish between the Official Conspiracy Theory (19 terrorists with utility knives and bad piloting skills) and alternate conspiracy theories.

Nerve the onus is on the conspiracy theorist to show that his conspiracy is valid.

Are you talking about the conspiracy theorist that is backing the Official Conspiracy Theory or an alternate conspiracy theory?

I don't think anybody on these boards is claiming that the steel melted down to it was liquid or something.
 
560Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 21:13
MITH,
Loose Change is made by amateur film makers with no budget. They've done an extraordinary job with virtually no resources.
Still, they are amateurs, and certainly not scientists.

However, Steven Jones is.
His challenges to the NIST report are especially illuminating(see pg 16 for example), and you'll be hard-pressed to find the debunkers addressing his research.

Not to sound like a CT, mind you, but less than a week after President Bush had a face to face with LDS President Hinkley in Salt Lake last fall, Jones was released from the church owned university.
 
561Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 22:27
One has to wonder are they trying to find out what happened or are they trying to defend the official conspiracy theory at all costs.

Its neither. They're defending the conclusions they've come to. Just like you.

When you use the term "conspiracy theory", you need to distiguish between the Official Conspiracy Theory (19 terrorists with utility knives and bad piloting skills) and alternate conspiracy theories.


you need to distiguish between the Official Conspiracy Theory... I don't think anybody on these boards is claiming that the steel melted down to it was liquid or something.

When you try to be cute like that, you should make sure you're right.
Ukula #116 in this very thread (from a column he pastes):
Gleefully, they claim that a few thousand gallons of kerosene [which the author says is the same as the jet fuel in the planes] is enough to:

1. completely vapourize a 65 ton aircraft;

2. have enough left over to burn ferociously enough for over an hour at the impact point to melt steel (melting point about double the maximum combustion temperature of the fuel )
And that isn't the first time I've seen it pooointed out by conspiracy theorists such as yourself that the temperature of burning jet fuel is significantly lower than the temperature at which steel will become liquid.

I will look over the links in posts 559 and 560 in the coming days.
 
562Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 23:50
If you get a chance in the coming days, check out this article on WTC "Experts"
 
563nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 02:29


MITH One of the points "Scientists" have made is that jet fuel
would burn up extremely quickly. To site the temp of the jet fuel
which would burn up extremely quickly as something that would
"weaken" steel has been the question.

People who incorrectly made statemets about melting steel, like
you said about yourself, aren't experts and it was clearly an
honest mistake.

But the real question remains... does fuel, with such a quick
burn rate, have the ability to weaken what is obviously high
grade structural steel in such a short period of time.

My understanding is that this has always been questions raised
by people who are experts in the field not the CT first.

As far as having preconceived notions, it never occured to me,
as I watched the planes hit the buildings, and the buildings
collapse, that there might have been duplicity from my own
government. The only thing that got me wondering about it is all
the evidence I've seen presented since.

I still haven't made up my mind what I think really happened.



 
564Perm Dude
      ID: 5853289
      Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 17:19
So what are the alternatives you are weighing, nerve?
 
565nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 18:21


So what are the alternatives you are weighing, nerve?

1) Everything is exactly as the government tells us.

2) Intell knew there was going to be an attack and allowed it to
play out (As Roosevelt has been accussed of at Pearl Harbor)...

2b) possibly even planting the demo bombs to bring down the
building... Either case would be used as a pretext for invading
Iraq which has made multi billions for companies involved in the
rebulding as well as oil companies based on scarcity of oil
because of increased price based on security issues due to the
war. (There are non financial issues also, NWO, Patriot act etc)

3) The terrorists didn't even crash the planes, the planes were
controlled from the ground.

4) Bin Laden and Sadam have been working with CIA all along.

5) Sadam wasn't really executed it all looked too fake.

Is that enough?

I'm not saying I believe any of the above, you asked what
alternatives I am weighing though.

It's fun to weigh alternatives...it's just kind of a hobby at this
point.





 
566Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Sun, Jul 01, 2007, 22:57
Re; the article linked in post #562. Nice link PV. 10,000 engineers and they keep using the same ones in supposedly independent investigations. And we know that NIST and FEMA is basically the Bush administration investigating the Bush rendition of events.
 
567Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 14:11
Some eyewitness accounts:

Engineer Mike Pecoraro, who was working in the sixth sub-basement of the north tower, said that after an explosion he and a co-worker went up to the C level, where there was a small machine shop. There was nothing there but rubble, said Pecoraro. We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press--gone! They then went to the parking garage, but found that it was also gone. Then on the B level, they found that a steel-and-concrete fire door, which weighed about 300 pounds, was wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil." Having seen similar things after the terrorist attack in 1993, Pecoraro was convinced that a bomb had gone off.

Firefighter Louie Cacchioli, after entering the north tower lobby and seeing elevator doors completely blown out and people being hit with debris, asked himself, how could this be happening so quickly if a plane hit way above? After he reached the 24th floor, he and another fireman heard this huge explosion that sounded like a bomb [and] knocked off the lights and stalled the elevator. After they pried themselves out of the elevator, another huge explosion like the first one hits. This one hits about two minutes later . . . [and] I'm thinking, Oh. My God, these bastards put bombs in here like they did in 1993!

Multiple explosions were also reported by Teresa Veliz, who worked for a software development company in the north tower. She was on the 47th floor, she reported, when suddenly the whole building shook. . . . [Shortly thereafter] the building shook again, this time even more violently." Then, while Veliz was making her way downstairs and outside: There were explosions going off everywhere. I was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons. . . . There was another explosion. And another. I didn't know where to run."

Sue Keane, an officer in the New Jersey Fire Police Department who was previously a sergeant in the U.S. Army, said in her account of the onset of the collapse of the south tower: [I]t sounded like bombs going off. That's when the explosions happened. . . . I knew something was going to happen. . . . It started to get dark, then all of a sudden there was this massive explosion. Then, discussing her experiences during the collapse of the north tower, she said: [There was] another explosion. That sent me and the two firefighters down the stairs. . . . I can't tell you how many times I got banged around. Each one of those explosions picked me up and threw me. . . . There was another explosion, and I got thrown with two firefighters out onto the street.

Wall Street Journal reporter John Bussey, describing his observation of the collapse of the south tower from the ninth floor of the WSJ office building, said: I . . . looked up out of the office window to see what seemed like perfectly synchronized explosions coming from each floor. . . . One after the other, from top to bottom, with a fraction of a second between, the floors blew to pieces.

Another Wall Street Journal reporter said that after seeing what appeared to be individual floors, one after the other exploding outward, he thought: My God, they're going to bring the building down. And they, whoever they are, HAD SET CHARGES. . . . I saw the explosions.

There are over 100 eyewitness accounts of explosions, or similar terms in this
peer-reviewed paper.

I wonder what those are all about?
Mmmmm Duff's.
 
568Building7
      ID: 571192610
      Sat, Jul 21, 2007, 10:34
Linked here is a 10 minute Youtube video of nothing but eyewitness accounts of explosions on 9/11 (About 50 of them). According to the 911 Commission Final Report there were no explosions. Thus, if you believe the Official government report that has been ingrained in your head since day 1; then you have to believe all these people are lieing or else they don't know what they are talking about. You cannot believe both.

You really should take the time short time to watch this video.
 
569Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Sat, Jul 21, 2007, 22:10
Wow, I am coming around to your POV on this one B7. I don't know why eye witness testimony can put you on death row in a court and but can't make the slightest impression with the MSM.
 
570holt
      ID: 41512278
      Sun, Jul 22, 2007, 04:33
Building7:
Meanwhile we have this top section of the tower weighing 65,000 tons falling and immediately running into the undamaged bottom section weighing 435,000 tons. According to the always reliable Dick Cheney version of events, this section now plowed thru 94 floors of undamaged steel and concrete, plowing, plowing all the way down and arrived at the bottom a couple seconds later than the bowling ball. Mmmm donuts.

This idea would surely qualify as the most absurd idea ever articulated in modern times in a supposedly scientific document. It is similar to suggesting that if a sports car going 30 MPH ran into the rear of a huge truck stopped at a traffic light, the car would simply continue at the same speed, pushing the truck ahead of it. There's a reason the videos of these buildings look like they are exploding.


Building7, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. Leave the scientific speculation to people who have a clue. You obviously don't. Find a new hobby.
 
571Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jul 22, 2007, 10:04
Post 568
According to the 911 Commission Final Report there were no explosions.

Please show me where in the 9/11 Commission Report it says there were no explosions.


Holt
It is becoming tiresome listening to people who are obviously not engineers speak as if they are.
 
572Building 7
      ID: 536342220
      Sun, Jul 22, 2007, 22:30
Please show me where in the 9/11 Commission Report it says there were no explosions.

Pages 1 thru 585, or whatever the last page is.

It is becoming tiresome listening to people who are obviously not engineers speak as if they are.

I'm sorry you got all tuckered out reading those two paragraghs. I didn't realize it would be so taxing. The formula for calculating the time for an object to hit the ground in a vacuum is t = (2H/g)to the 1/2 power. I can help you through that , if you'd like. I'm not sure why you have to be an engineer to comprehend it.

Building7, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. Leave the scientific speculation to people who have a clue. You obviously don't. Find a new hobby.

I'm not what I've done to warrant such distrust. And I'm not sure why you feel the need to order me around. But, I'll remember that.

What if I were to find a real phsyicist who wrote a real peer-reviewed paper and post the real link to it here. Would you believe that? I'm not sure if there are many physicists who play fantasy baseball and post on rotoguru.com; so perhaps you could settle for that.
 
573Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jul 22, 2007, 22:50
Pages 1 thru 585, or whatever the last page is.

I do know that if you open the document, search the word 'explosion' and check the context each time, you won't find any such claim.

If you want to make a case that believing the official report means that I also have to believe all these people are lieing or else they don't know what they are talking about, that I cannot believe both, then you'd better be able to show that the report says what you claim. Honestly, Building 7, it seems almost every time I come across more "evidence" of a 9/11 conspiracy in this thread, the less inclined I find myself willing to entertain the idea.
 
574Mötley Crüe
      Dude
      ID: 439372011
      Sun, Jul 22, 2007, 23:38
I have an admission to make. That youtube video, well, that's me and 49 of my buddies. Yeah, we just made it up to be famous.

So, like, who wants my autograph?
 
575Building 7
      ID: 536342220
      Sun, Jul 22, 2007, 23:49
The official conclusion of the 911 commission is that the airplane crashes and the reulting fires were what brought down the towers. Not explosions. I'm not going to search the entire document for every mention of the word explosion.

All of the 100+ accounts linked in Post 567 and all of the 50 videos linked in post 568 were available to the Commission. Few, if any, made it into the final report, because it did not fit their pre-determined conclusion.

 
576sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Jul 23, 2007, 02:50
and you feel it was predetermined because........? Why precisely? (Other than it doesnt say what YOU want it to.)
 
577Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Jul 23, 2007, 07:08
The official conclusion of the 911 commission is that the airplane crashes and the reulting fires were what brought down the towers. Not explosions.

That's not in the least bit contradictory with peopel claiming they saw explosions.


I'm not going to search the entire document for every mention of the word explosion.


So be it. I did. Your claim that here were no explosions according to the report is crap. Anyone who wants to see ofr themselves can do so in less than 2 minutes.

How could you even make that claim in the first place and then admit you're unwilling to fact-check it?

Is it any wonder why I'm skeptical of conspiracy theorys?
 
578Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Jul 23, 2007, 13:56
Looks like I'll have to search it, since my claim has been called crap. Other than references to the explosion caused by the airplane hitting the towers, I can find no reference to other explosions in the document like most of these witnesses are referring to.

The main point remains unexplained. Witnesses of explosions in the basement. People being burned and injured by explosions not near the plane hits. Multple explosions. Explosions minutes apart, explosions and then the building falling down, etc.

I don't expect everybody to believe what I post at face value. I encourage them to do their own research. Most people who question the government account feel the same. As opposed to the government's stance which is basically....we're from the government...trust us. And all alternative discussion is labeled conspiracy theories, crackpots, ignored, etc. IMO this is evidence in and of itself.

I will look over the links in posts 559 and 560 in the coming days. from June 27.
 
579Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Jul 23, 2007, 14:06
And all alternative discussion is labeled conspiracy theories

?

Is it that you don't know what the term conspiracy theory means? What else are we supposed to call it?
 
580Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Jul 23, 2007, 14:20
Explosions minutes apart

From this layman's POV, explosions occurring minutes apart are specifically not indicative of a controlled demolition. In every controlled demolition I've seen, the explosions occur either simultaneously or in precise rapid succession. Intermittant (especially occurring minutes apart) sounds like strong evidence that they were specifically not part of a controlled demolition.
 
581Building 7
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Jul 23, 2007, 14:55
The official theory is that 19 terrorists conspired to highjack airplanes and crash them into buildings. By definition, it is a conspiracy theory. However, most people refer to alternative theories as conspiracy theories in a derogatory manner. I've explained this before.

Again, the official theory is a conspiracy theory.
 
582Perm Dude
      ID: 37623238
      Mon, Jul 23, 2007, 14:58
Actually, the most common understanding of "conspiracy theory" is that the government has conspired to withhold the truth on a matter. A conspiracy theory is one that holds the government has made such a conspiracy, and the party putting forth that charge does so in order to get at the "truth."

We know this for a number of reasons, but also because the term is much older than 9/11.
 
583Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Jul 23, 2007, 15:10
Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: conspiracy theory
Function: noun
: a theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators
 
584Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Mon, Jul 23, 2007, 15:28
For the record, I don't here and don't typically intend 'conspiracy theory' or 'theorist' in any derogitory manner.

I know I have stated in this thread that I am generally distrustful of conspiracy theorists, but as I explained, similar to how I am generally distrustful of government. Similarly, I don't apply 'government' as a derogatory term, either.

Distrust is not the same as contempt.
 
585holt
      ID: 41512278
      Mon, Jul 23, 2007, 15:45
Short Changed

The failure of the Twin Towers has been exhaustively documented by the National Institute of Standards and Technology. Far from being impossible, the collapse turns out to have been inevitable. The planes cut some of the support columns and ignited fires sufficient to weaken (but not melt) the remaining steel structures. As the perimeter columns buckled, the weight of the collapsing top stories generated a momentum the rest of the building could not arrest. Puffs of smoke were blown out of the structure by compression as the building fell(4).

Counterpunch, the radical leftwing magazine, commissioned its own expert – an aerospace and mechanical engineer – to test the official findings(5). He shows that the institute must have been right. He also demonstrates how Building 7 collapsed. Burning debris falling from the twin towers ruptured the oil pipes feeding its emergency generators. The reduction in pressure triggered the automatic pumping system, which poured thousands of gallons of diesel onto the fire. The support trusses weakened and buckled and the building imploded(6). Popular Mechanics magazine polled 300 experts and came to the same conclusions(7).



Bayoneting a Scarecrow

The 9/11 conspiracy theories are a displacement activity. A displacement activity is something you do because you feel incapable of doing what you ought to do. A squirrel sees a larger squirrel stealing its hoard of nuts. Instead of attacking its rival, it sinks its teeth into a tree and starts ripping it to pieces. Faced with the mountainous challenge of the real issues we must confront, the chickens in the “truth” movement focus instead on a fairytale, knowing that nothing they do or say will count, knowing that because the perpetrators don’t exist, they can’t fight back. They demonstrate their courage by repeatedly bayoneting a scarecrow.

NIST WTC Fact Sheet

Building7:
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
 
586Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Mon, Jul 23, 2007, 18:19
In response to the NIST fact sheet:

Eric Douglas – Registered Architect in New York and California.
Essay 12/06: "The NIST investigation of the WTC building failures was extensive, but NIST did not substantiate its conclusions experimentally. On the contrary, many of NIST’s tests contradicted its conclusions. Furthermore, there are several examples in which NIST chose to manipulate input data, and then certify its findings based upon the inevitable conclusions that derive from the manipulated input. One finds little acknowledgement on the part of NIST that uncertainties in its simulations translate into uncertainties in its findings.

NIST’s physical tests were inadequate. Their ASTM E119 tests and their workstation burn tests were improperly modeled. Further, the former produced results that contradicted NIST’s conclusions and the latter fell far short of testing the performance of realistic steel members in the actual fire conditions. The workstation burn tests showed that the temperatures were generally too low, especially in the ventilation-controlled WTC environments. The ASTM E119 tests showed that the WTC floor trusses should have easily withstood the fires they experienced on 9/11.

There were also flaws in NIST’s computer simulations, including its impact simulation, its fire loading simulation, its temperature mapping simulation, its thermal/structural component simulations, and its global simulation. The LS-DYNA simulation showed that the aircraft would have done much less damage than NIST assumes, and NIST’s subsequent "scenario pruning" was confused and unsubstantiated. The decision to exclude the hat truss from the structural/thermal response simulations was a significant omission. The sequence of failed truss seats leading to pull-in forces on the exterior columns is central to NIST’s theory but not explained or supported by simulation.

This paper will conclude that the findings of the NIST investigation, although not necessarily incorrect, are not inherently linked to the reality of the failure mechanisms that took place in WTC buildings 1 and 2. The author calls on NIST to explain the discrepancies in its reports, admit the level of uncertainty in its findings, broaden the scope of its investigation, and make its raw data available to other researchers."


As pointed out in the link in #562, the NIST investigation was not an independent investigation. Subsequently, neither was the 9/11 Commission independent, having Bush lackey Philip Zelikow as executive director.

So, people can go back and forth with theories, debunking theories, debunking the debunking etc, but what is lacking is an independent and transparent investigation with full subpoena powers from all branches of government and law enforcement.

The above linked from
here.

Listed below are statements by more than 170 engineers and architects that contradict or are critical of the 9/11 Commission Report. Their collective voices give credibility to the claim that the 9/11 Commission Report is tragically flawed.

 
587Wilmer McLean
      ID: 36639260
      Thu, Jul 26, 2007, 02:35
Loose Credits:



and a link Was the Death Star Attack an Inside Job?
 
588Building 7
      ID: 536342220
      Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 18:28
More evidence of an explosion:



 
589Perm Dude
      ID: 25631299
      Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 18:34
How, exactly? Single frame photos, free of context is exactly the kind of thing that I believe you are accusing the government of passing off as "evidence."
 
590Building 7
      ID: 536342220
      Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 19:51
It looks like an explosion to me. Are you saying it is a fake? This photo supports a theory involving explosions more so than the pancake theory, plop,plop,plop. Just look at it.
 
591Perm Dude
      ID: 25631299
      Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 21:18
I'm not saying it is a fake. I'm saying it is free of context.

I'm also saying that there is no prrof, in that photo, that the "official" theory has been discounted one iota. What I see is the tower in the midst of falling straight down, one floor crushing the one below it.
 
593Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jul 29, 2007, 23:36
I don't see anything that looks like evidence that this is a combustive explosion. Explosions always happen when buildings collapse, that is, force is outwardly propelling materials that made up and occupied the building. I'd expect the explosion resulting from the collapse of such a massive structure to be every bit as spectacular as we see in that photo.

Also, I really don't get this issue of people who saw "explosions" and whether they were adequately addressed in government reports. Those buildings were loaded with electrical wiring, surely piped in oil and gas, had any number of generators and were tapped into the city's underground steam system. I expect there were dozens of (combustive and otherwise) explosions in each building.
 
594Tree
      ID: 32602911
      Mon, Jul 30, 2007, 00:03
It looks like an explosion to me. Are you saying it is a fake?

remember when you were a kid, and you were able to make farting noises by cupping your hand under your armpit and bringing your arm down with some pretty serious force?

that's what you're seeing in that photo. outward rushes of air and anything else that it was forcing about, like debris from shattered walls, windows, desks, humans, etc etc.
 
595Building 7
      ID: 536342220
      Wed, Aug 01, 2007, 19:52
"width=425>

Short video on Philip Zelikow, Executive director of the 9/11 Commission. This Bush crony basically decided what went into the Final report and what did not. link
 
596Building 7
      ID: 536342220
      Fri, Oct 26, 2007, 11:11
An update on the NIST collapse investigation of the WTC:

On April 11th, 2007, family members Bill Doyle and Bob McIlvaine, scientists Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan, architect Richard Gage and the group Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice filed a petition with NIST demanding that it correct its erroneous methods and findings.

On September 27th, NIST finally replied . From the reply, page 4:

NIST states that "it did not analyze the collapse of the towers," and that it is "unable to provide a full
explanation of the total collapse."

So, although many posters here, and the public in general know how the towers collapsed; the ones charged with finding out (NIST), after spending $20 million dollars and issuing a 10,000 page report..... do not.

Messieurs McIlvaine, Jones, Ryan and Gage and the group Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice have now
filed an appeal to NIST's reply.

NIST is still working on the Building 7 Final Report. The last I heard was December, 2007. This is over 6 years after it collapsed in 6 seconds.

Over 6 years. Truly pathetic.
 
597nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Fri, Oct 26, 2007, 16:22


Nice post building 7.

Please keep up the research.

Some of us appreciate it.

Cheers

Nerve
 
598biliruben
      ID: 579411512
      Fri, Oct 26, 2007, 17:30
Agreed. Pathetic. I used to work in Building 7. I'd be very curious to know how and why it collapsed.
 
599Building 7
      ID: 22271821
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 23:51
What did Larry Silverstein mean when he said 'pull it'? This 10 minute video is enlightening. Please watch the whole thing.

The falling antennae from the North tower sliced thru the facade of Building 7 and ruptured fuel lines in Building 7? That's the first I've heard that one.

Question: The fire commander denies having a conversation with Silverstein

Answer: Can we go on to the next question.

Silverstein fails to answer the question repeatedly. If anybody should be in jail over 9/11 it's this weasel IMO.

The NIST final report on Building 7 is now due in July. I don't understand what they are working on this week that they could not have done 6 years ago. My guess is it will be delayed until these clowns are out of office.
 
600Perm Dude
      ID: 372112522
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 00:11
I believe he used the term (as is common for the fire department) to pull out the fire and other safety personnel from the building.
 
601Building 7
      ID: 22271821
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 00:51
Who would say "pull it" when referring to "pull out the fire and other safety personnel from the building." He would have said "pull them" or pull them out. Pull "it" makes no sense in that context and it never has. He had a couple chances to clarify and he failed. Also, Silverstein does not work for the fire department. That lame excuse rivals what the meaning of is is.
 
602Perm Dude
      ID: 372112522
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 01:09
It appears to be a common phrase for firemen. Is it a surprise to you that he would use a fireman term when talking to a fireman? In fact, toward the end of America Rebuilds (from which the Silverstein quote is taken), a fireman says "We're getting ready to pull building six."

Silverstein released a statement in 2005, saying exactly that ("'pull it' means to pull out any people"). Yeah, maybe "Pull them" would have given you something else to pick apart, but "pull it" (as it, "pull the operation") isn't an indication of anything more than it is.

I really don't think you want to complain about parsing words too closely after a post like your #599, when this is exactly what you are doing, and tossing aside any explanation which doesn't already fit what you decided it is.
 
603Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 11:32
I thought some people may be interested in the video. It appears that you disagree. From what I remember, you think Building 7 was a controlled demolition. Is this correct?
 
604Boldwin
      ID: 53211263
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 11:36
Understand who you are talking to B7. PD wouldn't agree with you if you had a signed confession from Silverstein.
 
605Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 11:45
#604: I'm not altogether certain what happened (I don't know if we can know), but my position in #436 is one I still hold. That is, given the offices that were in that building, I'm certain that the ability to control the debris field and so on through some demolition already existed. I think that when it was clear the building was going to collapse, that the rest of the building may have been brought down intentionally for safety reasons.

The question is one of timing (and Silverstain would never have entered the decision circle). I think it was already coming down, they pulled everyone out, and then (if it happened) they took down the building as best they could through already-planted explosives. I don't believe any of the original damage which caused the building to become unusable was caused by anything other than the airplane and debris from that crash.

#604: You wouldn't agree with me if you had a note from Jesus.
 
606Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 14:06
Understand who you are talking to B7. PD wouldn't agree with you if you had a signed confession from Silverstein.

Agreed Dr. Boldwin. The only thing me and Perm Dude have agreed upon is where to get a good hot dog in Toledo. I got off on the wrong foot when one of my very first posts on the Politics Forum had a link to Worldnetdaily. Oh that was the end of life as we know it. That could not be allowed to stand on this board. Liberals came out of the woodwork to condemn that post. I've been a sworn enemy of them ever since. Normally I'm a likeable guy. Anyways, I was off and running.

It's weird that they will post extensively on how this administration lies all the time. But when it comes to 9/11 stuff, this administration is never lieing.
 
607Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 14:11
Weird. Did you even read my #605 (which you solicited) before you posted? Don't pretend that you believe "they" are saying the government is always right on 9/11 when I just posted different merely one post before.

Another example of evidence being ignored on your way to your pre-set goal.
 
608Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 14:44
You understood the gyst of the statement. You understood my point.

I'm still not sure what the administration's final opinion is on Building 7. We're still waiting on the final report from NIST.

I don't know if I have a pre-set goal. If I did have a goal it is to have a real investigation instead of the 911 Commission led by the Bush crony in Post #595.
 
609nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 14:45


Who would say "pull it" when referring to "pull out the fire and other safety personnel from the building." He would have said "pull them" or pull them out. Pull "it" makes no sense in that context and it never has. He had a couple chances to clarify and he failed.


Why the obsession with "pull it". It clouds the real point which is THAT BUILDING NEVER SHOULD HAVE COLLAPSED THE WAY IT DID" Like a controlled demolition.

Why muddy everything up by making the premise for the argument that this guy said "pull it" which can deflect the real question which is why did this building appear to fall by controlled demolition?

I think the pull it thing obsesses and damages the more logical argument that's already clear.



 
610nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 14:50

The question is one of timing (and Silverstain would never have entered the decision circle). I think it was already coming down, they pulled everyone out, and then (if it happened) they took down the building as best they could through already-planted explosives.

That's as weird as any explanation I'd heard. They already had controlled devices in the building? this is common? If so, why didn't they just explain it?

Good to see you thinking out of the box PD.

 
611Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 15:02
Well, according to Baldwin I'm still in the box, since I'm not alleging evil deeds by the government, nerve!
 
612nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 15:58

since I'm not alleging evil deeds by the government, nerve!

Ah but you see you do PD and you don't even know it.

Any normal American would think it absurd to think the government plants explosions throughout one of their buildings to "pull it" just in case some "unforeseen" circumstance arises.

In any case I am thrilled to see you acknowledge it's strange how building 7 came down.



 
614Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 16:21
Messed up link, it looks like.

I should point out that there is a difference between legitimate government secrets and evil deeds. If a government has CIA, FBI, and other offices in one building, the details of a sort of contingency plan (or plans) to ensure that sensitive material doesn't get into the wrong hands would fall squarely in the former. More secret than the names of CIA operatives, at least.
 
615nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 16:22


and this

what a dumb ass

 
616Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 16:25
Is it any wonder his handlers were keeping him out of the loop as long as they could?
 
617Building 7
      ID: 22271821
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 22:22
Why the obsession with "pull it".

I don't know that I'd call it an obsession Mr. nerveclinic. How did you get that name anyways? There were some other things in that video. Agreed that pull it is a trivial point though.

My personal guess is that the PBS video was made soon after 9/11 and Larry never fathomed they would attempt this fire damage as the reason for 7's collapse. He had probably seen the video(s) and surmised like me, Willie Nelson, and many others that it looked like a controlled demolition.
 
618Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Mon, May 26, 2008, 11:18
Here is a 52 minute video, part of which the researcher is looking for "evidence of Wham" The latest government theory is that the steel
weakened and buckled, and then the top section fell and obliterated the bottom section. So he is looking for evidence of this collision...Wham!. However, measurements of the falling tower on top, show just the opposite. It is accelerating while falling, almost at freefall speed. It is not whamming into anything, and the disintegration of the building must be from another cause.

Over 100,000 people have died do to 911, and we have no plausible explanation for the disintegration of the twin towers; except for explosives. Ditto for Building 7, where we are still waiting on the final report.
 
619holt
      ID: 341542412
      Mon, May 26, 2008, 15:26
do you seriously believe this garbage? or do you just want to believe it? ya, 9/11 was all just a U.S. government planned maneuver. makes perfect sense. :/
 
620nerveclinic
      ID: 5047110
      Mon, May 26, 2008, 17:02

Holt do you seriously believe this garbage? or do you just want to believe it? ya, 9/11 was all just a U.S. government planned maneuver. makes perfect sense. :/

Holt honest response, you are over simplifying the thesis.

If true, no one is arguing it was a "US government planned maneuver".

The theory would be that very powerful men, who had infiltrated the government, either staged, or allowed the events to happen in order to justify:

1) The invasion of Iraq, for the control of their oil fields, at a time when it's becoming the most precious commodity on the planet. A secondary concept, using the control of one of the largest oil fields on the planet to manipulate and increase the price of oil for the benifit of the oil powers. (W's friends)

2) The invasion of Afghanistan, allowing an oil pipeline to be built there (6 months after the invasion.)

3) Also in Afghanistan controlling the 90% of the worlds poppy used in the manufacturing of heroin (which has dramatically increased since the invasion) CIA's favorite money maker.

4) Justification for a transfer of 3 Trillion dollars of US taxpayer money to the war effort which has made billionaires for the companies involved in the war effort and rebuilding of Iraq.

5) Justification for the suspension of the constitutional rights our country was founded on to better control a potentially agitated population.

Don't over simplify the concept in your mind.

Do people rob banks? Of course they do.

Do people meticulously plan extravagant heists for huge payoffs...the lists could go on...

Did the Trojans build a wooden horse to infiltrate a secured fence? Of course they did.

Why is it hard to believe that someone would allow this to happen with an end goal of trillions of dollars? What's so hard to understand?

Is it possible you are too bright eyed and naive about the ways of the world?

What "doesn't make sense"?

Rather then labeling it garbage, why don't you refute the well stated evidence???

 
621Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Mon, May 26, 2008, 17:35
As an addendum to Nerve's #620, I think another reason as to why either the gov't or the power elite would do this is to transform the Middle East into Europe Lite via military means and as a prelude to an inevitable showdown with Iran.

(FTR, I do not believe 9/11 was a conspiratorial event. It only hastened an existing process.)

The Middle East is having a hard time accepting westernization. We need them to do this as a counter balance to an increase in Chinese and Russian power. If westernized or even a blend (Arabic Westernization to coin a term?), the Middle East is the 21st Century NATO that I firmly believe we need to keep our little empire running at a nice clip. I also believe the power elite is fuming PO'd at the denial of a free trade agreement with Columbia for similar reasons except replace China/Russia with Venezuela.

What was the NEED for nation building in Afghanistan? I can understand why we'd bomb them into oblivion, invade, capture or kill scores of Al Qaeda and leave, but why nation build? Why spend billions rebuilding and reshaping that country? Why are we there 7 years after the fact? Is our military really that incompentent? Hardly.

What do they hold that we could possibly want in the long term? Simple. A big fat gas pipeline and loads of poppy to probably flood Iran with or finance covert ops that are best kept off the books. We'll be in Afghanistan forever and we'll allow UBL to be a Castro-esque figure as the excuse.
 
622nerveclinic
      ID: 5047110
      Mon, May 26, 2008, 17:51

Box The Middle East is having a hard time accepting westernization.

hmmm you need to pay a visit...you might be very surprised what you find. In some ways...some ways, it's more liberal then the west, only with a veil.

My sense is, it's been that way a long time.

There is a game being played.

Religion is often an illusion.



 
623Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 26, 2008, 18:00
as a prelude to an inevitable showdown with Iran.

The war on terror has been a huge boon to Iran. They are stronger and also more hostile toward the west now than they were 5 years ago. This shouldn't have been hard to predict by the peopel driving our foreign policy. Why would we build up Iran if this is all part of some prelude to a showdown with her?
 
624Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Mon, May 26, 2008, 18:44
Why would we build up Iran if this is all part of some prelude to a showdown with her?

Perhaps in an effort to make them feel bigger than they are and do something to provoke us instead of us fabricating an event or provoking one ourselves and blaming them.
 
625Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Mon, May 26, 2008, 22:31
Nerve

You aren't really gonna generalize about the mideast using Dubai as your benchmark, are you?
 
626boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, May 27, 2008, 16:00
Do people meticulously plan extravagant heists for huge payoffs...the lists could go on...

Did the Trojans build a wooden horse to infiltrate a secured fence? Of course they did.


is this sarcasm or do you guys watch too much TV?
 
627nerveclinic
      ID: 5047110
      Tue, May 27, 2008, 16:36


is this sarcasm or do you guys watch too much TV?

Fair enough, the Trojan horse was likely a bad example given the fact it's likely myth, but you get my point...

In any case I haven't had cable in close to 10 years. Maybe the problem is you watch too much TV given the fact it's a tool for propaganda and mind control...8-}




 
628boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, May 27, 2008, 16:44
you maybe you are right...then again i only watch 3 shows and espn. so inless the espn prodcasters are secretly filling my head with propganda i think i should be ok, i hope.
 
629Perm Dude
      ID: 544422710
      Tue, May 27, 2008, 16:57
If you start finding yourself caring about the Yankees, then you are likely a tool of the propogandists...
 
630Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, May 27, 2008, 18:44
If you start finding yourself caring about the Yankees...

Hang on now.
 
631Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 18:14


In this picture you have the top section of the north tower being dropped. The one on the left took 10 seconds and the one on the right would take 9.3 seconds if you were able to take the top section and drop it over nothing.

This does not seem to be plausible to me. It does not even seem to be remotely possible to me. Form your own opinion. This is what the government, the 911 Commission, NIST, Dick Cheney, Big Media, FEMA, and many posters here expect people to believe.
 
632Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Sat, Jun 14, 2008, 18:20
This does not seem to be plausible to me....without the use of explosives.....I should add. The government theory says no explosives.
 
633Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Tue, Jun 17, 2008, 19:51
biliruben: Agreed. Pathetic. I used to work in Building 7. I'd be very curious to know how and why it collapsed.

Well here's your chance Mr. biliruben. All you have to do is get your New York City buddies to sign this
NYC 911 Ballot Initiative

If they get enough signatures it will be on the ballot in November. And then if it passes there will be a new Commission with subpeona power to investigate 911. You have to be a resident of NYC, though.
 
634Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Sun, Jun 22, 2008, 10:51
No evidence that Muslims hijacked planes on 9/11 Lots of footnotes and links for you link advocates.

1. No authenticated passenger lists
2. No testimonies or video evidence of aircraft boarding
3. No boarding passes
4. No positive identification of the alleged hijackers’ bodily remains

5. Conclusion

As shown above, the US authorities have failed to prove that the 19 individuals accused of the
mass murder of 9/11 had boarded the aircraft, which they allegedly used to commit the crime.
No authenticated, original, passenger lists, bearing their names, have been released; no one is
known to have seen them board the aircraft; no video recordings documented their boarding;
no boarding pass stub is know to exist, which would document their boarding; and there is no
proof that the alleged hijackers actually died at the known crash sites.

An excerpt:

3. To ensure that all checked-in passengers actually board the aircraft, airline personnel usually
tear a stub of the boarding pass and count these stubs. These stubs carry the names of the
passengers. The 9/11 Commission Staff report,52 which mentions specifically that
Mohammed Atta received a “boarding pass” at Portland airport, does not mention at all
boarding passes in connection with flights AA11, AA77, UA175 and UA93, as if such
documents did not exist. The Staff report does not explain how the airlines checked who
boarded the aircraft.

Me: I've flown before 911. The last thing you do is give them your boarding pass before going down the runway. And they tear off part of it and kind of look at it.
One would think that they would retain these at least until the flight is over, for liability and insurance purposes. For instance, in case the plane crashes and they need to know who died. That's odd they have not produced these. Plus some of them would probably have fingerprints on them.

Just add it all to the list. Mmmmmm Donuts.
 
635Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jun 22, 2008, 12:03
Do you think boarding pass stubs would have survived a fire of the magnitude caused by those planes crashing into those buildings?
 
636Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Sun, Jun 22, 2008, 13:00
The boarding pass stubs would have remained at the airports, as far as I know. However, numerous passports and I.D.'s did supposedly survive the fiery crashes at all three locations.
 
637Perm Dude
      ID: 75312122
      Sun, Jun 22, 2008, 15:24
Pre 9/11, the boarding passes were used mostly for counting purposes. Once the proper count is made (i.e., number of passengers equalling the number of passes) then they take off. Checking names against the boarding passes were very rare, and people often flew under assumed names.

The airlines didn't really care if there were fewer passengers (or boarding passes) than the number of tickets sold. They were really only worried whenever there were more.

We need to be somewhat careful, when looking over the evidence, in assuming that the security processes in place post 9/11 were in-place before 9/11 so that erroneous conclusions aren't drawn. For instance, it would be difficult in the US (though not impossible) to fly under an assumed name these days. This doesn't mean that pre-9/11 this security hole wasn't exploited. [Doesn't mean it was, either. But the lack of Middle Eastern names on a manifest isn't an indication one way or the other, IMO]
 
638Boxman
      ID: 211139621
      Sun, Jun 22, 2008, 15:39
I do admire B7's pursuit of the truth in this, wherever this takes him. Like I've said before I don't think 9/11 was a conspiratorial event that it just sped up an already existing process. That doesn't mean I'm right though.

B7: Isn't there a video of Atta and his cronies entering the airport? What is your contention they were doing there if not boarding an airplane?
 
639Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Sun, Jun 22, 2008, 19:16
If you're thinking about the video based on this picture from the Portland airport , then that plane did not crash. Post #285 also adresses this.

There is one other video I know of where some guys are going thru security. Not much for the greatest crime of the century.

I watched the short-lived program LAX. It had Heather Locklear in it was the main reason. Anyways, they had a kidnapping or something and they were following them throughout the airport...camera to camera. They had a bank of cameras any casino would have been proud of. Anyways, I know it was after 911 and that's a bigger airport, but still. Our parking garage has a guy looking at 16 screens.
 
640holt
      ID: 341542412
      Sun, Jun 22, 2008, 19:48
use your brain. who do you think crashed those planes? the airline pilots? and if the twin towers (and building 7) were all loaded up with explosives, then why even bother with airplanes. why not just blow the buildings and say that terrorists did it?

I know you want our own country to be the culprit in this, but come on. it makes no sense, at all. the answer is very simple, but you're trying to find some other answer that is buried under many layers, and it's just not there.

who is it that you think pulled off this crazy plot that you are suggesting? the CIA? who? for all that would be required to pull off the cover-up that you are suggesting, it must be an agency with plenty of capable agents who are also very loyal. I'm sure the whole plan just breezed through their meetings no problem. I mean it's only the twin towers and the pentagon. nothing major. and the plan obviously saved our country. mission accomplished. it all makes perfect sense.
: /
 
641Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sun, Jun 22, 2008, 20:01
Holt, it's good that you are asking questions. It's a shame that the bogus 9/11 commission didn't feel the necessesity to ask extremely pertinent questions and demand a real investigation, at least those in charge of directing the investigation and subject matter.

There is one other video I know of where some guys are going thru security

That would be

Dulles

Around 7:15 a.m., Flight 77 hijackers Majed Moqed and Khalid Almihdhar check in at the American Airlines ticket counter at Washington’s Dulles International Airport. [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 2-3; 9/11 Commission, 8/26/2004, pp. 27 ] The FAA has a computer system in place, called CAPPS, which identifies those passengers most likely requiring additional scrutiny by airport security (see (6:20 a.m.-7:48 a.m.) September 11, 2001). CAPPS selects both men, but the only consequence is that Moqed’s luggage is not loaded onto Flight 77 until after his boarding is confirmed. [9/11 Commission, 1/27/2004; 9/11 Commission, 8/26/2004, pp. 27-28 ] Dulles Airport has surveillance cameras monitoring its security checkpoints, and video later viewed by the 9/11 Commission shows the two passing through the Main Terminal’s west security screening checkpoint at 7:18 a.m. When they go through, their carry-on bags fail to set off any alarms, but both men set off the alarm when they pass through the first metal detector. They are directed to a second metal detector, where Almihdhar passes, but Moqed fails again. He is subjected to a personal screening with a metal detection hand wand. This time he is cleared and permitted to pass through the checkpoint. [9/11 Commission, 1/27/2004; 9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 3] The other three Flight 77 hijackers pass through the security checkpoint about 20 minutes later (see (7:25 a.m.-7:36 a.m.) September 11, 2001). The 9/11 Commission later concludes that Almihdhar’s passport was “suspicious” and could have been linked to al-Qaeda, but it does not explain why or how. [Baltimore Sun, 1/27/2004]
 
642Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Sun, Jun 22, 2008, 22:21
I know you want our own country to be the culprit in this

Why on earth would I want that? Do you think I'm a traitor or a spy or something. I'll answer the other stuff, but why do you want to go making accusations like this?
 
643holt
      ID: 341542412
      Sun, Jun 22, 2008, 23:42
Then why do you seem to believe everything on the "we did it" side and virtually nothing on "terrorists did it" side?
 
644Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Sun, Jun 22, 2008, 23:50
I'm just trying to follow the evidence. If the evidence leads to "our country did it" that doesn't mean I'm happy about it or I wanted that to happen.
 
645holt
      ID: 341542412
      Sun, Jun 22, 2008, 23:56
so I'll ask again. if terrorist hijackers didn't crash planes into the pentagon and twin towers, who did it? and if the towers were already loaded with planted explosives, why bother with the hijacked planes? and since the towers were loaded with explosives, why bother also loading building 7? cuz they had extra explosives and didn't want to waste any?
 
646Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 05:07
Holt

He isn't claiming planes didn't fly into buildings. He is arguing that it was not only allowed to happen but that they were preventing it from failing the way it did the first time it was tried [during the Clinton presidency], by the guarantee of extra explosives [well positioned] to finish the job if neccessary.

Re: building 7, that was actually a CIA command post [beyond dispute, that's oficially acknowleged] and it is suspected that 'pulling' that building was covering tracks.
 
647Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 05:12
Holt

Think 'confluence of interests'.

Muslim extremists wanted to humble America and the West in order to change the perception in the Muslim world that the West was unbeatable.

USA elites possibly wanted to start a world war vs Muslims possibly as the prelude to a war on all religion. Possibly for population control. Possibly to install their puppet-leaders. Possibly for oil for all I know.
 
648Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 05:15
Possibly just for the shock value. They are into culture manipulation.
 
649nerveclinic
      ID: 5047110
      Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 10:30



Holt

I'm not answering your questions because "I think the government did it". It's just that you ask the questions as if anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot. There are actually very simple answers to your questions if you'll keep a open mind...so here goes.

use your brain. who do you think crashed those planes? the airline pilots?

Again I am NOT saying this is what I think happened but...

There are other possibilities.

They could have been crashed from the ground.

We know this because an article came out after the fact saying in the future authorities may take control of the planes from the ground to stop this from happening. Yes they can guide the planes computers from the ground and take control away from the pilot.

See that wasn't so hard Holt.

And if the twin towers (and building 7) were all loaded up with explosives, then why even bother with airplanes. why not just blow the buildings and say that terrorists did it?

Lots of reasons, it's more plausible that a terrorist can hijak and crash a plane then it is possible for that same terrorist to gain access to a highly secure pair of buildings and lace them with explosives. In order to plant the building with explosives it would have to be a highly skilled inside job.

I know you want our own country to be the culprit in this, but come on. it makes no sense, at all. the answer is very simple, but you're trying to find some other answer that is buried under many layers, and it's just not there.

It's not "our country who did it" even if this is all true, it would be a small group of men who have infiltrated the government to create this situation for their own specific reason. It has nothing to do with "our government."

who is it that you think pulled off this crazy plot that you are suggesting? the CIA? who?

Again it's not THE CIA, it's human beings, some of whom may or may not be in that organization, who MAY have done it.

Crazy? some people have gotten very, very wealthy off this crazy plot.

for all that would be required to pull off the cover-up that you are suggesting, it must be an agency with plenty of capable agents who are also very loyal. I'm sure the whole plan just breezed through their meetings no problem. I mean it's only the twin towers and the pentagon. nothing major. and the plan obviously saved our country. mission accomplished. it all makes perfect sense.
: /


That's far to simple minded a perspective... there wouldn't be "meetings", but really your questions are so simple minded and childish it's hardly worth wasting bandwidth on.

Let me ask you a counterpoint.

Did the holocaust happen?

If so, let's put it in your context...

for all that would be required to pull off the holocaust that you I assume believe in, it must have been an agency with plenty of capable agents who are also very loyal.

I'm sure the whole plan (rounding up jews, Concentration camps, constructing gas chambers, gassing millions of people) just breezed through their meetings no problem.

I mean it's only the 6 million Jews. nothing major.


and the plan obviously saved our country. mission accomplished. it all makes perfect sense.

Saved our country?

That wouldn't be "the plan".

As I've detailed before, if it was "a plan" it would be used to:

1) justify a war on terror,

2)invade Afghanistan (To build an oil pipeline, (done) and take control of 90% of the worlds heroin supply possibly done production has increased dramatically)

3) invade and occupy Iraq to control one of the biggest oil fields in the world,and gain a further strategic foothold in the middle east.

4)cause high levels of damage to Iraqi infrastructure to justify transferring the wealth of the American people to large corporations who will rebuild Iraq and

5)To make money restocking depleted American weapon caches.

6)Also justification for the patriot act to take away our constitutional rights and give firmer control to the forces in charge.

This one dramatic day, when a few thousand Americans died, has made the men who always profit on wars billionaires. That is a fact.

Do people kill during a simple bank robbery for a few thousand dollars? You don't think there are more sophisticated bank robbers out there Holt?

What's so Fricking hard to understand?

Have you ever considered Holt you are just a naive sheep waiting for slaughter?

Of course I'm not saying I believe any of this...just that I do have an open and cynical mind.


 
650nerveclinic
      ID: 5047110
      Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 10:36

Just for the record, even though I gave a more complicated explanation of how it could happen in post 649, I am much more inclined to think if something other then the official explanation took place, it is more likely the scenario outlined by Baldwin in post 647.

The explosives angle being they knew the terrorists had this planned, and the planting of the explosives was an inside job to make sure the terrorist act was dramatic enough to justify all that we have done since.

 
651Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 13:56
BTW the 'esxplosives' angle is not neccessary for this to have been a conspiracy. Simply allowing it to happen when they could have prevented it constitutes a conspiracy.

BTW the CIA [or FBI, I forget which] actually had a man on the inside of the plot to truckbomb the WTC. He complained bitterly that his superiors had been forwarned and did nothing to stop it. From my POV based on that precedent I think the burden of proof is on the coincidence theorists to prove the second wasn't the same as the first.
 
652holt
      ID: 341542412
      Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 20:22
Did the holocaust happen? of course it did. and it wasn't exactly a well-kept secret either. the analogy makes no sense. pulling off a major operation is one thing. doing it in absolute secret is another. Hitler had absolute control. no meetings required.

so it wasn't the CIA. just a group of people not coordinated in any official sense. people who could load up buildings with explosives, hijack planes from the ground by over-riding cockpit controls and fly them with their little remote control unit into a tower (are you serious?). oh wait, what about the cell calls from people that were in the hijacked planes. what about the descriptions they gave? all bogus and part of this brilliant mastermind plan I'm sure.


- justify a war on terror,"
- build an oil pipeline, (done) and take control of 90% of the worlds heroin supply
- invade and occupy Iraq
- cause high levels of damage to Iraqi infrastructure
- make money restocking depleted American weapon caches
- justification for the patriot act

well, it's pretty clear who you are trying to pin this terrorist attack on. not the actual Muslim terrorists who did it, but on our own administration.

"It's just that you ask the questions as if anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot."

I do think you're an idiot.
 
653Building 7
      ID: 174591519
      Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 23:02
I wouldn't waste any time on this Holt dude. His mind was made up about one hour after the towers disintegrated and Big Media told him what happened.

Here's been his contributions to this thread:

570 You simply have no idea what you're talking about. (Even though I've probably read 10 times the volume of material as him on this subject) Leave the scientific speculation to people who have a clue. You obviously don't. Find a new hobby.

585 The insulting picture (Nice touch though)

619 do you seriously believe this garbage? or do you just want to believe it? ya, 9/11 was all just a U.S. government planned maneuver. makes perfect sense. :/

640,643,645 I know you want our own country to be the culprit in this, but come on.

652 "It's just that you ask the questions as if anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot."

I do think you're an idiot.

Plus some assorted accusations and babble. Yes, those posts have contributed a lot to everyone's knowledge.

I feel a google search coming on. If you find something by Popular Mechanics, please note that that book has been debunked by this book.. Debunking 911 Debunking written about a year ago, which has yet to be debunked by another book. Kind of a stupid/confusing title. If anyone is interested in learning more about the subject, I would recommend it. It's the state of the art of the 911 investigation. Don't hold your breath waiting for a book review from Big Media, though.

Why do I need the Perry Mason defense. I'm just discovering some gaping holes in the government conspiracy story and suggesting there shoud be some additional investigation. I suggest people should do their own research. If that makes me an idiot, so be it. Holt called me an idiot. I'm devastated. Actually he called nerveclinic an idiot, but I presume it was meant for me, also. I'm sure life is now going to be difficult for my esteemed colleague Dr. nerveclinic.



 
654Boldwin
      ID: 85241823
      Mon, Jun 23, 2008, 23:09
pulling off a major operation is one thing - Holt

Simply refusing to authorize actions to prevent a known attack from occuring only takes one man in the right position.
 
655B7 in hurricane Ike
      ID: 174591519
      Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 10:29
Jesse Ventura takes reporters to task.

 
656B7 in hurricane Ike
      ID: 174591519
      Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 10:37
911 Eyewitness and hero William Rodriguez with his friend Rosie O'Donnell. Her career has sunk to doing gay cruises since speaking out about 911.

 
657Perm Dude
      ID: 25857128
      Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 10:44
Oh, man. Rosie? Maybe her career tanked because of a host of other reasons, including her outspokeness on a host of issues.
 
658B7 in hurricane Ike
      ID: 174591519
      Sat, Sep 13, 2008, 10:58
Videos not working now. Obviously they have been sabotaged. Here are some links:

Jessee Ventura

Rosie and William Rodriguez
 
659Building 7, Ph.D.
      ID: 174591519
      Fri, Sep 19, 2008, 23:52
That Rosie video is tough to watch. It's really about the 911 eyewitness, though. Allow me to recap the video:

1. Eyewitness William Rodriguez hears / feels explosions below him. It lifted him up, and the other 14 people with him. He is on basemant floor -1.
2. A few seconds later he hears explosion from the top of building. It is the first plane hitting. No question that there was an explosion below him before this.
3.Tells 911 Comission his story. Provides list of 14 witnesses to confirm his account. None were contacted.
4. Testimony omitted from 911 commission. (It did not fit the official story.)
5. Only C-span reports his story unedited.
6. He sees Felipe David from basement floor -2 below him. Totally burned. He helps him out.
7. Later credited with saving over 100 lives. He was last man out and jumps under firetruck.

What was this first explosion?
Were the 19 terrorists responsible for it?
Why was his testimony of explosions and about 100 other accounts of explosions not included in the 911 Commission report?

 
660Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Sat, Sep 20, 2008, 11:10
Jamie Gorlick was on the commission for starters.
 
661Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Sat, Sep 20, 2008, 13:55
Jamie Gorlick was on the commission for starters.

Jamie Gorelick? Why would you start with such a bit player? Philiop Zelikow, Condi Rice's good buddy, who directed the commission and decide what would and what would not be included in the "investigation" would be a much more logical candidate...for starters. Maybe a good starting question would be why Building 7 isn't even mentioned in the 9/11 commission final report.

Speaking of Building 7, last month NIST released their final report on the building's demise. According to the report, a key factor leading to the eventual collapse of WTC 7 was thermal expansion of long-span floor systems at temperatures “hundreds of degrees below those typically considered in current practice for fire resistance ratings." So, NIST discovered a new phenomonon, a phenomenon that never before, nor since, has ever been demonstrated to exist.

Completely ignored by the media was the response by independent investigative groups such as the 477 strong Architects and Engineers for 911 truth or the Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice.

Here's an example of why these committed scientific minds should be included in any summary of what happened to Building 7:

Figure 9-11 from NCSTAR 1-9 (page 383) depicts the upper layer air temperatures on the 12th floor fire simulation. As can be seen therein, significant fires are present across at least half of the north face of the building at 5:00pm.

This part of the fire simulation presents two problems. First, it contradicts an earlier report issued by NIST regarding the fires on floor 12. Second, it contradicts NIST’s own photographic evidence of the fire activity on floor 12.

COMMENT: Appendix L to NIST’s June 2004 “Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center” contains NIST’s “Interim Report on WTC 7”. (See http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf) On page L-26 of this interim report, NIST states that “Around 4:45 p.m., a photograph showed fires on Floors 7, 8, 9, and 11 near the middle of the north face; Floor 12 was burned out by this time.”

REASON FOR COMMENT: The contrast between NIST’s prior assertion that floor 12 was “burned out” by 4:45pm, and NIST’s current computer model, that shows a raging inferno at 5:00pm, could not be more apparent. This discrepancy calls into question the veracity of the Report.

SUGGESTED REVISION: This discrepancy must be acknowledged and explained in the Report. Furthermore, the photographic or other visual evidence NIST relied upon for its statement in Appendix L that floor 12 was burned out by 4:45pm must be included in the final version of its report.


Sadly, it doesn't take a scientist, engineer or architect to expose the illigitmacy of NIST's final report. Even a relatively pedestrian blogger can accomplish that:

NIST said fires alone brought down Building 7, but other office fires have burned longer and hotter without causing collapse... NIST [said]: 'No blast sounds were heard on the audio tracks of video recordings during the collapse of WTC 7 or reported by witnesses.'... What about this, this, this, this, this and this?... why were there residues for high-tech explosives at ground zero (and see this)?... what about the pools of molten metal at ground zero for months? And why was the at and under the ground at the site of WTC 7 as hot as the ground under WTC 1 and 2? why didn't NIST address the obvious pre-knowledge (and see this) by everyone around and well in advance that 7 was going to come down?

In the interest of fair play, here's what NIDST apologists Popular Mechanics responded:

The long-awaited report from the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) conclusively rebuts those claims. Fire alone brought down the building, the report concludes, pointing to thermal expansion of key structural members as the culprit.

Conclusively?

Today's report confirms that a fire was, indeed, the cause.

Confirms?

The report is neither conclusive, nor does it confirm anything except NIST took 7 years to create a new phenomenon while ignoring facts(not theories)in its drive to prove a pre-determined conclusion.
 
662Boldwin
      ID: 9820164
      Sun, Sep 21, 2008, 07:28
Bit player? I would think every vote on the commission to 'wall off' avenues of investigation was crucial to the conspirators.
 
663Building 7
      ID: 1103028
      Sun, Nov 09, 2008, 21:37
This article provides evidence of an explosion in the basement of the North Tower about the same time the first airplane hit. The government explanation of a fire ball travelling 80 floors down an elevator shaft is also dispelled.

An excerpt:

Many of the communication transcripts above follow the same pattern of an explosion heard or reported, human injury is then reported, and finally the damage to the structure is described. The most significant damage to the structure being a cave-in at B-4 that caused the people on the PATH trains to panic and flee. This follows the logical sequence that points to the sound of explosions coming from an explosive device, not a fireball as the NIST has concluded.

It is impossible for the excuse the official story holds that a jet fuel based fire ball traveled down the elevator shaft in the North Tower, into the subbasement levels, particularly sub level 4 and the PATH Plaza, and caused the human injuries and structural damage witnessed and reported to the police. The analysis below proves without doubt that a fuel air explosive could not have been the cause of the events described above. This leads to one conclusion: terrorists used an explosive device in the sub levels of WTC: North Tower.

Aside from actually testing for explosive residue which no Federal Agency did, the above accounts and the fireball analysis below conclusively prove that an explosive device was used in the sublevel structure of World Trade Center, North Tower.

Me:...You can believe these eyewitness accounts or you can believe the Bush administration version of events - (magic fireball story travelling 80 stories down an elevator shaft and turning a 50 ton hydraulic press to rubble). Most of these eyewitnesses were not permitted to testify before the 911 commission. You decide.
 
664Baldwin
      ID: 1110431822
      Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 12:34
Listen to Bill Cooper predict 9/11 months in advance and predict it would be blamed on OBL.
 
665nerveclinic
      ID: 26107108
      Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 16:54

Funny I almost posted that Baldwin. Just hadn't gotten around to it.

 
666Khahan
      ID: 1065339
      Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 09:44
Fine, there was an explosion in the basement, B7. Is it so far out of the realm of reality that a sadistic mastermind who had a cell of terrorists train to be pilots, train for in-close hand to hand combat (realizing that people may resist), find ways to sneak illegal weapons onto planes and coordinate the hijack of 4 planes for a mass simultaneous attack on our country actually had 2 cells in operation? And the second cell was planning to detonate a bomb in the lower portion of a building they had tried to bring down before?


Nope. Couldn't possibly have had that kind of thought, planning and foresight. /sarcasm.

It had to be a government conspiracy. Oh sorry, NOW /sarcasm

 
667Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 13:33
If there was a second cell, and there may have been one, nobody is trying to find them. No leads are being followed. No eyewitness interviews are being done. No security logs are being checked. There is no mention of them in the 911 Commission Final Report. Yet it's clear there was an explosion in the basement not caused by an airplane. And whoever did it is still on the loose, unless they were still hanging around the building when it collapsed.
 
668Khahan
      ID: 1065339
      Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 16:05
Well, seeing as how the first cell was to suicide themselves for 72 virgins in the afterlife, its again, not out of the realm of reasonableness to assume that the second cell would be suicide bombers, too.

Look I'm not saying there was a second cell. I'm not saying if there was or was not a basement explosion. I'm running w/ your information of 'fact' that there was a basement explosion and just pointing out there this no reason to make the leap to government conspiracy.

There is another much more plausible explanation.

 
669Perm Dude
      ID: 331032110
      Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 16:19
I think it also needs to be said that the incompetance of the Administration in terms of investigations, tracking down perps, targetting suspects, and so on is hardly an indication of what happened or not. Neither is it an indication of a cover up.

Often, an investigative report with obvious holes is more a product of a crappy investigation than signs of a coverup.
 
670Boldwin
      ID: 541042014
      Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 18:10
Far be it from me to say that salafists couldn't have done what they had already done a couple years previously. But the 'prepositioned explosives' crowd sees evidence of well placed and timed secondary explosions all the way down the building. Just so you know.
 
671 Fook U
      ID: 51106260
      Wed, Nov 26, 2008, 01:07
i like cheese
 
672nerveclinic
      ID: 26107108
      Wed, Nov 26, 2008, 15:00


I think it also needs to be said that the incompetence of the Administration in terms of investigations, tracking down perps, targetting suspects, and so on is hardly an indication of what happened or not.

The actual "criminal" investigation was not carried out by the "administration". It was carried out by the best and brightest criminal investigators in our country. Lifers. Non Pols in theory.

The best of the FBI and all the other agencies that would be involved in investigating the most spectacular crime in our nations history.

To assume the administration could bungle the criminal investigation is not logical.

Now if you are talking about the commission that was set up to review the evidence and draw conclusions...that's another story.

 
673Pancho Villa
      ID: 51546319
      Sat, Dec 13, 2008, 20:15
Alex Jones interview with former head of Pakistani ISI
 
674Building 7
      ID: 475442619
      Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 00:01
Demolition access to the World Trade Center towers: Part one - tenants

Excerpts:..... On another occasion, Bush said in a televised speech -- “Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th.”

But paradoxically, we have also been asked to believe Bush’s own outrageous conspiracy theory about 9/11, one that has proven to be false in many ways. One important way to see the false nature of Bush’s conspiracy theory is to note the fact that the World Trade Center buildings could only have fallen as they did through the use of explosives. A number of independent scientific studies have pointed out this fact [1, 2, 3, 4], but it was Bush’s own scientists at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), through their inability to provide a convincing defense of the official line, who ultimately proved that explosives were necessary.[2, 5, 6, 7]

This leads us to ask the obvious question -- Who could have placed explosives in the World Trade Center towers? To answer that question, we should first consider who had access to the buildings, specifically the areas of the buildings that would be relevant to a demolition operation. We should also consider the time periods of interest. Those who had access at the necessary times should be further considered in terms of their ability to obtain the necessary explosive technologies and expertise, their ability to be secretive, and the possibility that they could have benefited from the destruction of the WTC buildings or from the resulting War on Terror. But one thing is certain, unless it was done by one person acting alone, it must have been a conspiracy.


 
675Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Mon, Jul 13, 2009, 22:40
I'm not all that sure explosives were necessary but I'd be curious if surveillance records disappeared around that area and time.
 
676boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jul 14, 2009, 12:30
This seems as good as any place to put this and i have feeling some one has brought this up earlier.
 
677nerveclinic
      ID: 346281415
      Tue, Jul 14, 2009, 16:28

nice link boikin
 
678Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, Jul 14, 2009, 19:22
ha. it's a small world.

i may very well be doing the social media stuff for the film company behind the project talked about in the link above.

I've met Bob and spoken to him several times. he is very passionate about his company, and very passionate about his beliefs.

good stuff.
 
679Boldwin
      ID: 467910
      Tue, Jul 14, 2009, 21:11
So where are the dead bodies? Where are the people dying of anthrax? I know of one guy investigating Clinton who was sent an anthrax present and nearly died. I believe this can be easily misdiagnosed and I would love to see some reporter track suspect cases around the world.

Most people want to not believe that anthrax story and forget it quickly while discounting it. I hear that and never forget it and track anything related to it the rest of my life. The nearly one hundred germ warfare experts who were murdered a few years back for instance could easily be tied to that murder of Kelly for all we know.
 
680Building 7
      ID: 43735169
      Fri, Sep 11, 2009, 21:12



Charlie Sheen challenges to debate on Larry King live. He also wrote this 20 minute fictional account with the President.

Twenty Minutes With The President
 
681nerveclinic
      ID: 2381943
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 11:28

I actually had come here to post a different Sheen video. Pretty well done, lots of great questions and points.


Sheen vid


 
682nerveclinic
      ID: 2381943
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 11:32

A number of comments are pointing out that Youtube seems to be suppressing the view count. If you refresh the page the number doesn't go up much, and 275,000 seems quite low.

This is listed however as one of the most viewed videos on You Tube. That's actually how I found it, by clicking most viewed.
 
683Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 11:34
Interesting the lack of support for Van Jones from the truthers in this thread.
 
684nerveclinic
      ID: 2381943
      Sun, Sep 13, 2009, 01:12

Whose Van Jones?
 
685Boldwin
      ID: 178581323
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 01:02
The openly communist czar who was just fired over the only honest thing he had to say.
 
686Boldwin
      ID: 178581323
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 01:06
Honest isn't the perfect word, he communist convictions are honestly held...the only correct thing...well that carries the flavor of political correctness...

Fired over the only views he holds that reflect reality.
 
687biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 15:53
You must be having a lot of heart-to-heart talks with all these pinko-commie-bastards to know what they "really" believe.

Senator McCarthy, er..., Glenn Beck would like to have a little chat with you about who you have been choosing the fraternize with of late. Not saying you are sympathizer or anything, just a little chat...
 
688Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 16:51
Interesting the lack of support for Van Jones from the truthers in this thread.

So you admit we're telling the truth. What does that make the official version of events.

Whose (Who's)Van Jones

He's some dude that worked for Obama that got canned for signing an internet petition to investigate 911.
 
689Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 17:12
He's not just some dude. He's a dude who pissed off Glenn Beck, by calling on a boycott of Beck by his advertisers after Beck claimed Obama was a racist who hated whites and "white culture" (whatever that is). Beck started going to town on the guy, featuring him something like a dozen times, while his apostles dug up a video where Jones called Congressional Republicans "a$$holes."

Too much truth for some...

:)
 
690Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 18:21
Beck went after him because he is one of a group of czars Obama has appointed who are outspoken and open communists with a capitol C.

The MSM won't cover it so someone has to.
 
691Pancho Villa
      ID: 138411417
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 18:41
Glenn Beck is a communist.
 
692Razor
      ID: 14791320
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 18:54
Agreed.
 
693Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 19:35
The MSM won't cover it so someone has to.

Glenn Beck is on Fox. It doesn't get more mainstream than that.

that MSM argument holds such little water, it's amazing that even a sieve like you continues to use it.
 
694Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 12:47
Has Osama Bin Laden been dead for seven years - and are the U.S. and Britain covering it up to continue war on terror?

Article from England paper. Stories like this are rare in American Big Media.

 
695boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 14:06
This theory has been floating around for years and i figure at best there is 50% chance he is still alive. But there is one whole in there theory about US and brittain making the videos and that is why? They don't need him alive as an excuse to keep fighting and secondly there would be no greater victory for the terrorist to come out and show proof that the western governments have been lying to there citizens for years....that is of course assumes terrorists exist.
 
696Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 14:13
Wow, did you really just say that?
 
697boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 14:17
i guess so? i just realized I used the wrong "hole"...i should reread my stuff better.
 
698Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 14:29
Sorry, I am just having a hard time believing what I am seeing. You're the first terrorism-denier I've come across. It just seems like such an outlandish position to even float, but who am I to tell someone what makes them look insane?
 
699Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 14:32
I assumed it was facetious.
 
700boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 14:36
I am not denying terrorism basically pointing out that if the story in B7's link is true then logically that would indicate that terrorism/terrorists on a large international scale must be for the most part also created by the government or at least exaggerated by the government.
 
701sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 15:01
probably the single greatest argument to denounce the "the government did it" theories.

Actually, boikin's deduction is correct and logical.

*IF* we start with the premise that the government was behind 9/11, then it is perfectly correct to extend that premise to their being behind the original attempts on the WTC, the OKC bombing, the various embassy and disco bombings over the years. Even the Marine barracks bombing in Beirut many years back. Of course, this requires one to believe that an IMMENSE, highly secret and apparently incredibly effective conspiracy has been ongoing, through multiple Administrations and Congresses; whereby the US Government is systematically killing it's own so as to further the cause of worldwide bloodshed.

Uhhhhhhhh, nope. Not viable and hence...the idea that the Government was behind 9/11; becomes absurd.
 
702Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 15:13
The question isn't whether terrorists exist. It is who got that ball rolling?

Not only is it wierd beyond passing how the 9/11 terrorists were training in that CIA nest in Florida...

...But also who facilitated the highly unpopular tidal wave of moslem immigration into Europe? In the light of recent events, that move looks to have been deliberate sabotage of western societies and introduction of culture warriors actually willing to behead people in that culture war. Who bulldozed that policy over the will of those supposedly democratic county's populations? There is more to this than meets the eye and it was all very deliberate.

The Bush dynasty, long-time kissing buddies of the rulers financially pushing Wahabiism to the forefront of moslem conmmunities in non-moslem coutries.

The moslem world is being dragged by the nose into a world war in my opinion. One the average moslem has no will to engage in anymore than Americans wanted to be involved in WWII at the start.
 
703Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 16:03
The question isn't whether terrorists exist. It is who got that ball rolling?

your hero, Ronald Reagan, actually. and that's a documented fact.
 
704Building 7
      ID: 43735169
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 18:51
One theory is that the Bush admin would release these "new" tapes at opportune times. Right before an election, etc. I can link an article with dates and reasons if anyone is interested.

Before the day they flew an airplane around for an hour after the nation was on high alert, and hit the Pentagon....Osama used to give live interviews on occasion to a reporter. They would blindfold them and lead them to Osama. Even when he was wanted for the Cole bombing. This has not happened in 7 years.

This is probably a bad thread to post the dead Osama story as he is not wanted for 911. The FBI said there was not enough evidence to link Osama to 911. They have never convened a grand jury to indict him. I've heard they can indict a ham sandwich, but not Osama for 911. Have you ever heard that reported by Big Media.
 
705J-Bar
      ID: 256552623
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 22:05
Let me preface that i am not a conspiracy theorist and really think they are both bogus. But let me see if i understand this; it is more believable to some that the U.S. government conspired with 19 or 20 Saudis to perpetrate the actions of 9/11 than to buy off one clerk at the Hawaii BVS for a birth certificate.
 
706Pancho Villa
      ID: 88501621
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 22:50
it is more believable to some that the U.S. government conspired with 19 or 20 Saudis to perpetrate the actions of 9/11 than to buy off one clerk at the Hawaii BVS for a birth certificate.

It's not a question of belief. It's a question of the events of 9/11 having never been properly investigated, since there has never been a court case where evidence is presented and witnesses are questioned and cross-examined. The 9/11 commission never even mentions Building 7(the building or the poster), a good indication that the commission was premised on supporting the government theory, which is, of course, also a conspiracy theory.
 
707Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 10:48
than to buy off one clerk at the Hawaii BVS for a birth certificate.

Moron.
 
708Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 11:58
Insulter.
 
709Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 14:42
than to buy off one clerk at the Hawaii BVS for a birth certificate. J-Bar

That sword cuts both ways. I know it takes a lot less than a call from the president to get a city clerk in Chicago to do something corrupt. Like issue some mealy-mouthed confirmation that doesn't actually confirm when you parse the language Clinton' style.
 
710J-Bar
      ID: 256552623
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 07:55
I always read how Tree doesn't call names unless he is provoked. Hmmmmm I guess I provoked him. I prefaced by saying that I don't believe either but thought it was an interesting point of which no real response was given. Oh well back to your regularly scheduled left vs right with no actual discussion of anything (and your name calling).
 
711Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 08:25
It was me and not tree. And you're right the comment was both uncalled for and unwarranted. My apologies.
 
712Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 09:42
I always read how Tree doesn't call names unless he is provoked.

wow. just wow.
 
713J-Bar
      ID: 256552623
      Wed, Sep 23, 2009, 07:32
I apologize Tree for naming wrong person. Have a great day.
 
714Boldwin
      ID: 1185237
      Wed, Sep 23, 2009, 08:08
wow, just wow.

Tree does virtually nothing else, but call names and hiss.
 
715Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 06:28
What happens when you don't take the hush money and file a lawsuit instead.
 
716DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 09:51
As usual, XKCD has this one about right
 
717Building 7
      ID: 43735169
      Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 21:10
" target="_blank">Yet Another "9/11 Was An Inside Job" Song
 
718Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 03:38
When you are paying the nazis to surf internet 2 pause to reflect on the wonder and glory that was internet 1.
 
719Building 7
      ID: 43735169
      Wed, Mar 03, 2010, 19:28


Firefighter compares 911 investigation to a standard fire investigation. When you insult me, you are also insulting this firefighter.
 
720Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Mar 03, 2010, 19:44
If I insult his head, am I insulting yours?

Just wondering...

:)
 
721Building 7
      ID: 43735169
      Wed, Mar 03, 2010, 19:56
The glare off his head is hotter than Building 7 ever got.
 
722Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Mar 03, 2010, 22:22
Well played!
 
723Boldwin
      ID: 421172615
      Thu, Mar 04, 2010, 10:26
Wow, there was a lot I had not fully digested before in there.
 
724Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Mar 04, 2010, 10:41
re 719

I never understood why Giuliani and Kerik were considered heroes after 9/11, when they basically botched the investigation, allowed massive evidence tampering, and ignored voices that didn't fall in line with the official conspiracy theory.
 
725nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Thu, Mar 04, 2010, 23:33

Excellent video B7 keep it coming. Explanations from the anti conspiratorial crowd?

 
726Building 7
      ID: 232122716
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 22:09
The Justice Department has quietly recanted nearly every major claim the Bush administration made about Abu Zubaydah

Excerpts:

The Justice Department has quietly recanted nearly every major claim the Bush administration made about Abu Zubaydah, the alleged al-Qaeda leader who was the first suspected terrorist subjected to the torture of waterboarding and other White House-approved “enhanced interrogation techniques.”

For the first time, the government officially admitted that Zubaydah did not have "any direct role in or advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001," and was neither a "member" of al-Qaeda nor "formally" identified with the terrorist organization.

The government's retreat also could add to the mounting criticism of US Appeals Court Judge Jay Bybee, who in August 2002 as head of the Office of Legal Counsel signed memos authorizing the torture techniques that were applied to Zubaydah and other "high-value" detainees.
At the time, Bybee asserted, based on information he received from the CIA, that Zubaydah "is one of the highest ranking members of the al-Qaeda terrorist organization," "has been involved in every major terrorist operation carried out by al-Qaeda," and was "one of the planners of the September 11 attacks." Bybee approved the harsh interrogation as necessary to thwart pending attacks on US interests, which the CIA claimed Zubaydah knew about.
"The Government's accounts frequently have been at variance with the actual facts, and the government has generally been loath to provide the facts until forced to do so," said Zubaydah's attorney, Brent Mickum, in an interview.
"When the Government was forced to present the facts in the form of discovery in Zubaydah's case, it realized that the game was over and there was no way it could support the Bush administration's baseless allegations. So it changed the charges."

In seeking to block Zubaydah’s discovery motions, the Justice Department also said the government was no longer contending that Zubaydah “was a 'member' of al-Qaida in the sense of having sworn bavat (allegiance) or having otherwise satisfied any formal criteria that either [Zubaydah] or al-Qaida may have considered necessary for inclusion in al-Qaeda.

Undermining 9/11 Report

The US government's new position also undercuts the 9/11 Commission's report as it relates to Zubaydah. The report called him the leader of Khaldan.
The 9/11 report added that Zubaydah was a "major figure" in the "Millennium plot," claiming he was a mastermind behind a plan to bomb a hotel in Jordan and Los Angeles International Airport.
The 9/11 report cited several intelligence memoranda from then-counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke that Zubaydah was planning "a series of major terrorist attacks" on Israeli and possibly US targets and was working closely with bin Laden. Clarke declined numerous requests for comment.
………………………………………………

There’s lots more in this story. Even if you’re still buying the official 911 story, there’s lots of anti-Bush, anti-torture stuff in here.

So this guy gets waterboarded 83 times and its …Oopsies. Sorry. Bush, Cheney, and Bybee claim he’s a high-ranking al-Qaida official(#2) and then after discovery the Justice Dept has to admit he’s not even a member of al-Qaida. They just lie and lie and lie until its time for discovery and people are put under oath. This used to be a pretty good country. It may be again, if we can reign in this out-of-control federal government.
 
727Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 23:24
I wouldn't be quite so quick to take that at face value.

A) the CIA often backs down rather than reveal sources. The will easily make the deal to let one guilty man go free that one source may live.

B) the justice dept is run by the guy who used to defend and run interference for al qeada suspects. The justice dept is packed with lawyers who formnerly defended al qeada suspects.
The Justice Department has acknowledged that at least ten political appointees at the agency previously worked on behalf of detainees in terror cases, including six lawyers who worked as legal counsel for detainees and four who worked for advocacy organizations.

The most prominent is perhaps Assistant Attorney General Tony West, who previously represented "American Taliban" John Walker Lindh.

Deputy Solicitor General Neal Katyal represented Afghan Guantanamo Bay detainee Salim Hamdan in a case that was an enormous setback for the Bush administration's early plan for military commissions.

Assistant Attorney General Ron Weich acknowledged, in a letter earlier this month to Senator Chuck Grassley, that several appointees have defended detainees. But the letter did not list the names of the political appointees or answer questions about what work they are doing on detainee issues for the Department.

In his letter to Grassley, Weich said the former detainee representatives are not excluded from Department of Justice decisions on issues related to terror cases except for those involving individuals where there is a conflict of interest.
So I am not convinced there is a good faith effort to prosecute.
 
728Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 23:31
The law firm Covington & Burling where Holder was working before he was nominated AG, worked for Guantanamo inmates. B7 will be delighted to learn that he was Clinton's choice to replace the infamous Jamie Gorelick.
 
729Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Apr 01, 2010, 23:38
Somehow, the collapse of Enron can be traced to the Obama administration.
 
732bibA
      ID: 35327210
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 11:37
Nothing disturbs me more about the previous administration than how its attitudes led so many people to accept torture as a viable and just tool, as long as it was being used by a righteous cause. Namely either the US, or its surrogates who applied this tool when rendition was used.

Once upon a time the Geneva Convention was thought to be a moral and decent standard; the Red Cross was believed to be one of the finest organizations in existence. With the advent of accepting torture as being necessary in the war on terror, somehow these entities came to be thought of as propaganda tools used by our enemies.

The story of Abu Zubaydah is indeed disturbing. Responsibility for his treatment apparently lies with the very highest persons in the Bush administration, mainly the president himself, and Cheney.
 
733Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Jul 07, 2010, 00:01
WTC 7: Sound Evidence for Explosions



The government claims nobody heard an explosion for Building 7, so they didn't check for explosives. Liars.
 
734Boldwin
      ID: 4265071
      Wed, Jul 07, 2010, 03:11
Outstanding.

I suggest you look for tell-tale admissions that government officials believe and act on the phrase 'you can't handle the truth', as in 'the public can't deal with the truth so we'll just spoon feed them'. I wonder where the director or writer for the movie came across that line.

I know that making up the cover story for Pat Tillman's death was a process as common as rainwater in the military. Perhaps it's more widespread.
 
735Boldwin
      ID: 4265071
      Wed, Jul 07, 2010, 03:15
The building B7 had the exact same effect on you as the suicide of RTC investigator Jon Parnell Walker had on me. I just knew to the core of my being that something huge was behind it and that I would have to get as close to the bottom of it as I could.
 
736biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Wed, Jul 07, 2010, 09:21
I recall visiting ground zero a year or so after 9/11 and finding it remarkable they were already building another building at WTC 7. Nothing like a quick construction project to destroy evidence.
 
737nerveclinic
      ID: 390561510
      Tue, Jul 13, 2010, 18:16

I recall visiting ground zero a year or so after 9/11 and finding it remarkable they were already building another building at WTC 7. Nothing like a quick construction project to destroy evidence.

Wooooo wait a minute, Hold on. Is this you Bili? Have you joined us on the dark side?

 
738biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Wed, Jul 14, 2010, 00:09
Read the thread, my man nerve. I have been flippantly skeptical of the official version events since the beginning.

I thought I saw you on the street today, BTW. Has the CIA been flying you home to satisfy your urge for tasty IPA?
 
739boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Jul 14, 2010, 09:33
I was talking with someone the other day about 9/11 and I was wondering if anyone has good link or would like to give me an good explanation behind the why bringing down the buildings was so important. would not crashing airliners into the building not be enough? Why was building 7 even blow up? I mean why go the trouble to make sure it came down when the rest of the building were destroyed?
 
740nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Jul 14, 2010, 11:43

Other's can probably answer better then me Boiken but it was a
government building that housed a secret CIA office. The theory
is this is where the events were planned and all evidence was
destroyed in case any suspicions came to light about the real
reason the trade center was destroyed.

there was a November 4th 2001 NY Times article that discussed
the CIA secret office. Link here...

http://www.wtc7.net/lcache/wtc7.htm

Another theory here.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/wtc7/index.html

sorry I am having issues with the link button you will have to
copy and paste.

 
741boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Jul 14, 2010, 12:27
This does seem all kind of bizarre, I think i understand now why all the focus is on building 7. I still don't understand why If there was a conspiracy what is the motivation for destroying the other buildings. The planes already crashed into the building, but why destroy the buildings. I can understand a desire to destroy the building 7 once the other buildings were gone.

Any explanations on why hit the pentagon?

I guess ill try and read through some more of the links and posts here.
 
742Boldwin
      ID: 446221418
      Wed, Jul 14, 2010, 19:30
Boikin

The building B7 isn't central to my thinking on the issue of the events of that day, but I will point out that coincidence theorists are constantly pointing out that conspiracies can't work because the evidence of them always will come out if they dig hard enuff. Well if it originated and/or was filed in the CIA offices in B7, they can just flip congress the bird and say 'subpoena this'.

In addition I believe a number of power elite made insurance killings from the events of that day. Where are the new iterations of those offices today I wonder. An upgrade perhaps?
 
743boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Jul 15, 2010, 13:19
power elite made insurance killings from the events of that day.

have not seen that one yet. I guess in my mind if it was a conspiracy why hit the pentagon and what was the point of the 4th plane?
 
744Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Jul 15, 2010, 13:36
Larry Silverstein made billions on the insurance settlement. That's with a B.

He had insurance specifically for terrorist attacks, purchased about one month before 911.

Only his buildings collapsed, though there were some closer by that had more damage than building 7, that did not collapse.

Controlled demolitions are not allowed in NYC.

The estimate for asbestos abatement in the two towers was over one billion dollars.

The towers were not fully occupied, and it was mostly government offices that were forced to occupy the space. World trade tenants were about 5%.

Building 7 was evacuated before the second plane hit. Even though, people were told to remain in the Towers even after a plane had hit them.

Most of this is covered earlier in this thread. Most of these stats were pulled from memory. They may be off, but the point remains.

 
745Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jul 15, 2010, 15:47
Clearly we can see now that 9/11 was planned by a world-wide coalition of archeology buffs.
 
746Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Jul 19, 2010, 14:14
for my friends the conspiracy buffs...

a hidden world, growing beyond control...
 
747The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 13:23
Bill Maher, as usual, is right about why the government couldn't have planned 9/11; because it worked.
 
748nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 13:25


Boikin the most obvious reason was a justification for invading Iraq. If that was the reason, it worked.

Since then friends of the government have made ten's of billions of dollars either replenishing weapons, war profiteering, and rebuilding Iraq and Afghanistan.

It gave us a 10 year occupation of the most important region for a depleting commodity.

Another reason is by creating a spectacular terrorist event they were able to pass laws taking away our rights and allowing the government greater control, spying and monitoring of the masses who are ultimately the enemy.

There are too many reasons to count.

 
749boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 14:01
Nerve, i understand why they would plan the attacks, i guess what I don't understand is why the need to destroy the twin towers, would crashing the planes into them not be enough? I mean why go to trouble to crash a plane into the building when they could have simply driven a truck with explosives into the building a blown them up.

747 makes a good point.
 
750Boldwin
      ID: 406152013
      Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 14:16
I mean why go to trouble to crash a plane into the building when they could have simply driven a truck with explosives into the building a blown them up. - Boikin

How could you forget that they did that very thing the first time?

Unforgettably the USA government had an informant inside THAT conspiracy, were fully aware of all the details and allowed THAT attack to transpire also.
In the course of the trial it was revealed that the FBI had an informant, a former Egyptian army officer named Emad Salem. Salem claims to have informed the FBI of the plot to bomb the towers as early as February 6, 1992. Salem's role as informant allowed the FBI to quickly pinpoint the conspirators out of hundreds of possible suspects.

Salem, initially believing that this was to be a sting operation, claimed that the FBI's original plan was for Salem to supply the conspirators with a harmless powder instead of actual explosive to build their bomb, but that the FBI chose to use him for other purposes instead. He secretly recorded hundreds of hours of telephone conversations with his FBI handlers.
 
751Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 15:18
Another reason is by creating a spectacular terrorist event they were able to pass laws taking away our rights and allowing the government greater control, spying and monitoring of the masses who are ultimately the enemy.

There are too many reasons to count.


Thats an awful lot of forsight that I just don't give guys like GW Bush credit for. Yes, much of what he did afterwards was reprehensible. But do you honestly think there was a conspiracy to destroy the Twin Towers that hosted how many businesses, bank, lives, resources, money etc so that they could make money? it just doesn't make sense. Reverse engineering at its best, here folks.

I have yet to see any proof at all, whatsoever that the government had anything to do with the terrorist attacks on our nation. What I see is people taking events after the fact and using them to justify wild Hollywoodesque conspiracies.

Is there any shred of actual hard concrete proof from before the attacks of the planning?
 
752Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 15:29
Stirring the pot, Khahan?

:)

 
753Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 15:34
*hides big wooden spoon behind his back*

Who me?


But really I am seriously asking the question: Is there any evidence of this conspiracy that is rooted before the event happened? In other words do we have evidence of the planning? Recordings? Witnesses? Paperwork? Cash flow trails? People involved coming forward? Photos of secret meetings? Any evidence at all that originates on the front end of the tragedy? If not, then I really suggest the people who think this is a conspiracy keep looking.


 
754Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 16:23
Prior knowledge of 911

Here are a bunch of articles about prior knowledge of 911.
 
755Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 16:35
Careful here building 7 I'm not sure you want to use that as support for your theories.

Yes, they answer my question about 'what proof was there prior.' But they also pretty explicity destroy any credibility behind 'the US Government planned 9/11.' Read those again closely.

US Heard 'Tomorrow Is Zero Hour' on Eve of Attacks: U.S. intelligence intercepted two messages the day before the Sept. 11 attacks that indicated an event was planned the following day, but the communications were not translated until Sept. 12, government sources said on Wednesday.
A Big Warning: The National Security Agency intercepted and secretly recorded at least one conversation in Arabic before the Sept. 11 attacks in which the participants spoke about something big that was going to happen on that day, ABCNEWS has learned.


Doesn't sound to me like the government planned anything. Sounds more like a failure in our intelligence than anything else to stop what others have planned.

Botton line, 9/11 was planned by terrorists and was as terrible day in our history. People trying to pawn this off as some government conspiracy should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.
 
756Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 17:45
You read all those articles in 12 minutes? And then pull one paragraph out in an attempt to discredit all of them. And then you want me to read those again closely. How about you read them for the first time.
 
757bibA
      ID: 256502019
      Tue, Jul 20, 2010, 20:53
I read a few of your articles B7, and it seems that they are concerned with possible failures in intelligence and/or possible prior knowledge. What I didn't find was much or anything about the government motivation behind either allowing terrorists to commit these acts, or why it would actually be responsible itself.

And, I find it very hard to believe terrorists were responsible for the twin towers, and the government then decided to blow up Building 7 as if this act would make the horror of the day any worse.
 
758Boldwin
      ID: 34641216
      Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 09:56
Khahan

Just for starters...

1) Buzzy Kronguard's [Bush's pal] put options on airline stocks prior to the attack.

2) Well timed military/emergency 'exercises' mimicking the events that would transpire designed/timed to confuse any response. A pattern we have seen repeated in other terrorist events like the London subway attack. Training exercise 'Vigilant Guardian' disables legitimate response.

3) What O'neal knew that led him to quit the FBI to become head of WTC Security where he dies on his second day on the job.

4) Larry Silverstein taking a 99 yr lease on the WTC two months before the attack and cleaning up a cool 4.5 BILLION from the attack.

Larry Silverstein is absent from his office on the 88th floor of the North Tower because of a "doctors appointment" and his two kids, Roger and Lisa, are also absent from the office because they were "running late."

5) Some of the Jihadi's coming fresh off CIA training centers in Florida.

6) The actions of "Moving Systems Incorporated".

7) The coverup activities of the commission ostensibly assigned to investigate.

8) At 21:54 GMT on 9/11/2001 the BBC announced that WTC 7 had collapsed. There was just one problem with this news: WTC 7 did not collapse until 22:20 GMT.

9) Odigo IM's prior to the attack.

10) Scientists find active 'super-thermite' in WTC dust

11) The attacks were largely funded by money wired to Mohammed Atta from Pakistan, by Ahmad Umar Sheikh, under orders from Pakistani intelligence chief General Mahmoud Ahmad who at the time of the attack happened to be having breakfast with Bob Graham [former]chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Pakistan's ambassador to the U.S. Maleeha Lodhi and other members of the Senate and House Intelligence committees.

12) Two of Mohamed Atta's luggage, which contained incriminating evidence, were the only luggage of the 81 passengers aboard Flight 11 that didn't make it on the plane. How convenient.

13) All of the five alleged Flight 77 hijackers lived in a motel right outside the gates of the NSA.

14) The WTC 7's fire alarm system is placed on "TEST" mode for an eight hour period for "maintenance or other testing" in which any alarms that are received from the system are not shown on the operator’s display and are considered the result of the maintenance or testing and are ignored.

15) A "garrison control exercise" was being conducted at Fort Belvoir, less than 20 miles from the Pentagon, to "test the security at the base in case of a terrorist attack" and a team there was conducting classes about rescue techniques and then were one of the first responders to the Pentagon.

16) WTC janitor William Rodriguez hears multiple explosions in the lower floors of the building BEFORE the planes hit.

17) Demolition flashes can be seen going off in rapid succession in videos easily found on youtube.

18) FOX reporter Jeffrey Shapiro says several NYPD officers and Con-Edison workers told him that Larry Silverstein was on the phone with his insurance carrier to see if they would authorize the controlled demolition of the WTC 7.

19) Two of the alleged hijackers, Mohamed Atta and Marwan Alshehri, took flight training at Rudi Dekkers' Huffman Aviation flight school in Venice, Florida. Huffman Aviation is related to Caribe Air which was involved in CIA drug running. According to reports from Newsweek, three alleged terrorist pilots trained at the Pensacola Naval Air Station in Florida, while Knight Ridder stated that suspects Mohamed Atta, Abdulaziz Alomari, and Saeed Alghamdi had attended various other prestigious military officer's training programs. So all those reports about bad pilot students who weren't interested in landing start sounding shaky.
 
759Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 12:32
1) Buzzy Kronguard's [Bush's pal] put options on airline stocks prior to the attack.

Ok. Which airlines? And I guess you trying to tie this in by stating he knew the attacks would happen so he cashed in now while he could.
"hey buzzy, its GW from the white house. Trust me, those stock options you have, its time to cash them in. Oh, how do I know about which options you have? I'm GW. Its my job as commander-in-chief to know what my buddies are investing in. Now go get me a taco."

3) What O'neal knew that led him to quit the FBI to become head of WTC Security where he dies on his second day on the job.

So he knew the attack was coming? So he quits his safe job and puts himself right into harms way to die? Yeah, thats a convincing argument for proof of a government coverup. I can imagine him at home with this wife, "Hey dear, I'm going to leave my cushy but boring government job to go head security at the WTC. Rumor has it there is going to be a major attack to bring the towers down causing mayhem and a heavy death toll. I've GOT to be part of that!"

10) Scientists find active 'super-thermite' in WTC dust


No, they haven't. There was a yellow sulphur-like dust at the site but this was never confirmed as thermite. In fact, it would take over 60 tons of thermite to cut thru the amount of metal in one of the planes that hit the building. Let me repeat that. 60 tons. Now imagine how much it would take to take out that many supports in a building. I guess the jihadists hired by GW hid 60+ tons of a highly volatile powder under their baggy shirts?

It also cannot be used for controlled cuts. Thermite is a reactive and volatile powder, not something you can just put into a torch and use for precision cutting.

12) Two of Mohamed Atta's luggage, which contained incriminating evidence, were the only luggage of the 81 passengers aboard Flight 11 that didn't make it on the plane. How convenient.


Actually that is very convenient that they were not in a position to be completely destroyed. I'm sure the masterminds behind your conspiracy purposely left crucial evidence against them in a piece of luggage that they left behind rather than letting it get onto the airplane where it could be incinerated. meanwhile they spent how much to devise this plot and pay for the demolition of Building 7 to destroy other evidence.

15) A "garrison control exercise" was being conducted at Fort Belvoir, less than 20 miles from the Pentagon, to "test the security at the base in case of a terrorist attack" and a team there was conducting classes about rescue techniques and then were one of the first responders to the Pentagon.

"Hey, GW here on the red phone. Go out and get me a taco. Then plan to have some military exercises near the pentagon on 9/11. We're planning an attack on the pentagon that is costing us millions to pull off, but we want to have well trained professionals nearby who may be in a position to thwart our attack. Yeah, thwart is a cool word. And make sure that taco is a soft shell. The hard ones leave crumbs."


I could go on and on and on. But there is already too much. The only conspiracy I see any evidence of is a conspiracy to cover up incompetence of intelligence gathering at letting this one fall thru and happen.
 
760nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 18:07

Khahan: "Hey, GW here on the red phone. Go out and get me a taco. Then plan to have some military exercises near the pentagon on 9/11. We're planning an attack on the pentagon that is costing us millions to pull off, but we want to have well trained professionals nearby who may be in a position to thwart our attack. Yeah, thwart is a cool word. And make sure that taco is a soft shell. The hard ones leave crumbs."

Dude if you want to make sarcastic comments like you are having school yard debate, so be it. Your comments bring nothing to the table to explain all the unanswered questions.

How does your making an imaginary phone call by George Bush bring anything to the debate?

If you want to give logical explanations to the all the questions great. But sarcastic monologues that don't move the debate forward brings nothing.

Lot's of people all over the world are questioning what exactly happened that day. That doesn't mean George Bush knew anything but there are so many things that don't add up, So many questions that the government refuses to answer. so many "experts" that question the "official" explanation of the days events.

Look at the body of work and then come back and explain it away but so far no one has.

What caused building 7 to collapse like a controlled demolition? There is no logical explanation.



 
761nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 18:09

Bill Maher, as usual, is right about why the government couldn't have planned 9/11; because it worked.

Of course it wasn't the government. It would have been black ops, far removed from the idiot politicians and far, far smarter.

 
762nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 18:12

Thats an awful lot of forsight that I just don't give guys like GW Bush credit for.

If that is how you think about this, that George Bush was that important. That he was directly involved, then I would suggest you don't know how things really work, and maybe as a child you never owned a puppet.

 
763Khahan
      ID: 13126822
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 00:27
Nerve, I'm responding to Boldwins post. Lets look at number one. Boldwin makes sure he references that Buzzy is one of Bush's pals. Why? There has to be a connection. If not Bush directly pulling the strings, somebody in his crew is. So we either believe that A) Buzzy Kronguard was behind it or B) believe that these guys all know each others personal finances and other kinds of private data so intimately that they could plan this and know who to warn so they could sell and make the money.

Given I'll admit that money is a big motivating factor for people to do all kinds of nasty things. But there is no connection here.

As for this being a schoolyard debate I'll be honest with you, I don't care. I'm frankly insulted by the fact that people are trying to make a huge conspiracy theory out of the worst attack on US soil since the world wars. Do you remember that day? Do you TRULY remember that day? Do you remember the immediate aftermath?

What about the plane that went down in the PA field and the phone calls passengers made to loved ones? Those are first hand accounts of the terrorist attacks. First hand. People who gave their lives trying to defend their plane and their country. And they are being trivialized by this complete and utter garbage and nonsense. All anybody has posted here as 'proof' is either flat out lies (the super thermite) or connections that are SO weak and pathetic that you've got to take a leap of faith just to get to the point where you can make a leap of faith to believe that they prove anything.

I mean really. They want us to believe that because Mohammed Atta's luggage was mishandled and not placed on board the plane that got destroyed that there is some kind of conspiracy. I'm sorry but those that believe this junk will have to draw a very detailed map.

I have not forgotten 9/11 and I have not turned my back on the people who died or lost loved ones in that tragedy. You want a conspiracy look no further than the conspiracy perpetrated by bin Laden. Bush lost track of his own citizens. And people looking for a government cover up have lost track of those very same people.

I will close by saying I am willing to listen to anybody. If you do have that detailed map and actual proof (proof, not conjecture based on coincidences and unrelated events) I will listen. And there is sound proof of a government cover up I'll turn my sarcastic ire on them. But until then, not a single thing posted in this thread has convinced me. None of it has even been enough to make me question, "are these guys on to something." All of it together is still nothing.

Answer these questions:
What solid concrete evidence is there?
What reasoning is there? what gain?
 
764Khahan
      ID: 13126822
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 00:29
Of course it wasn't the government. It would have been black ops, far removed from the idiot politicians and far, far smarter

Will point out in my rant above that this is basically a different talking point. Most of my comments are directed at a government theory supported by the bush administration as boldwin seems to be leaning towards.

I still don't see the gain/benefit of a black ops to bring down the towers and in the end it would still be government/military involvment and I'm still not buying any of these theories.
 
765Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 01:54
What solid concrete evidence is there?

You want a conspiracy look no further than the conspiracy perpetrated by bin Laden.


What solid concrete evidence is there that there was a conspiracy perpetrated by bin Laden?
Please direct me to the trial transcripts where there was evidence presented and witnesses questioned and cross-examined.

When you ask us to look no further, I can tell you that, in my case, it's way too late for that. I spent the better part of 3 years obsessing and researching every bit of information that exists on the subject. But that's been over for me for several years. Obsessions are rarely healthy, especially when there's no set of answers, only more questions.



 
766boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 10:41
Here is problem i have with some of the theories is that they contradict themselves at times how does Of course it wasn't the government. It would have been black ops, far removed from the idiot politicians and far, far smarter work with this 4) Larry Silverstein taking a 99 yr lease on the WTC two months before the attack and cleaning up a cool 4.5 BILLION from the attack.

If I am a black ops team I am not warning everyone ahead of time.


yes, the destruction of building 7 does seem questionable, and you know what maybe the government to bring the building down, it had been evacuated it was probably unsafe send a team in and do some controlled demolition before it falls down on its own.

I have another question, what proven track record does the government have of pulling off large scale conspiracies like this? Or, at least keeping secrets?

What solid concrete evidence is there that there was a conspiracy perpetrated by bin Laden?

interesting point
 
767Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 12:20
As for this being a schoolyard debate I'll be honest with you, I don't care. I'm frankly insulted by the fact that people are trying to make a huge conspiracy theory out of the worst attack on US soil since the world wars.

Your theory is a conspiracy theory. It claims that 19 terrorists conspired with a couple "masterminds" to hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings. This has been pointed out in this thread on multiple occasions. You would have noticed it, if you had read the entire thread. So, it looks like you have insulted yourself, if you are "insulted by the fact that people are trying to make a huge conspiracy theory out of the worst attack on US soil since the world wars"
 
768Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 13:50
Generally, a conspiracy theory is an idea that diverges from
the official or broadly accepted version of events. I'm pretty
sure that's been explained to B7 before.
 
769Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 15:42
767 - Uhh yes. In fact, there is evidence of their involvement. Bin Laden is claiming to have helped organize it and those involved are claiming that is true.

We also have first hand accounts from people on the flight over Pa calling loved ones stating what happened.

Lets go back to some of the claims made in the links above: Mohammed Atta (for those that didn't know was the ring leader of the hijackers) had paperwork and documents in his luggage which identified the other hijackers and their plans. Right there is the kind of documentation I'm asking the theorists on these boards to produce to prove their side. I'm still waiting for something more than conjecture which is all you have so far. Conjecture. Where is your smoking gun? Where is concrete evidence that anybody in our government was involved in the planning or execution of these attacks? Because so far you have not provided it. I'm not discounting your theory. I'm discounting the basis for your theory.

As for 'my theory' that al-Queda was behind the attacks:
1. A claim of responsibility
2. Documents from some of the attackers confirming their mission
3. phone calls from victims on the plane that went down in Pa.
4. A videotaped will from some of the attackers (example: Abdulaziz al-Omari)
5. A papertrail of the hijackers actions involving training in the years leading up to 9/11 including pilots training and close-quarter combat training.

These things are verifiable and concrete. With these things there is no need to doubt that bin Laden and others such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

Some of the claims made in boldwins link can definitely be proven true. But their connection or relevance to 9/11 is what I call into doubt. Some of the information can be proven completely untrue (such as the thermite or other similar controlled demolition theories which were shot down by the National Society of Civil Engineers and National Institute of Standards & Technology) and some are just so vague (6) The actions of "Moving Systems Incorporated".
) that you have to wonder what they're really getting at and why they can't pin it down to something more specific.

(documentation below)
 
770Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 16:07
Testimony of Dr James Harris of the American Society of Civil Engineers

bin Laden claims responsibility.

Richard Bernsteins investigative report.

Reverse tracking of the terrorists lives leading up to 9/11.

And while I admit this is also difficult for you guys to verify it does work into my own belief that there was no government conspiracy. My neighbor is retired Leuitenant w/ the NYC Firefighter. He led a team in one of the initial rescue operations and lost multiple men in the collapse. He's obviously hesitant to talk about this but nothing he has ever said supports controlled demolition theories and he was there on day 1.
 
771Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 16:45
I have another question, what proven track record does the government have of pulling off large scale conspiracies like this? Or, at least keeping secrets?

Senators knew that the White House and the Pentagon had deceived the American people over the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident

It would take over thirty years for the truth to emerge that the Aug. 4, 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident, where US warships were apparently attacked by North Vietnamese PT Boats – an incident that kicked off US involvement in the Vietnam war – was a staged event that never actually took place.

However, the records now show that at the time senators knew this was the case

Johnson used the 1964 false flag event to expand dramatically the scale of the Vietnam War by ushering in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, as well as to rope in much needed domestic support with the Congress and public.

Perhaps if the Foreign Relations Committee hadn’t been so afraid of “the big forces” controlling America, a large percentage of the almost 60,000 American soldiers and 2 million Vietnamese people wouldn’t have lost their lives.

Sadly, modern day elected representatives have failed the American people in exactly the same way over the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq

.....................................

They kept that secret pretty good.
 
772boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 17:06
interesting article though a bit misleading it says was a staged event that never actually took place. but the event was not staged, the "event" happened but there was not real attack. I would put this more under the same category as WMAs and the attach on the Maine. I guess they did keep it a secret which is kind of impressive, even if they did not have to actually make any plans.
 
773Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 27, 2010, 13:38
Generally, a conspiracy theory is an idea that diverges from
the official or broadly accepted version of events. I'm pretty
sure that's been explained to B7 before.


So, a theory that claims Timothy McVeigh acted alone would be a conspiracy theory, since it is different than the official theory of McVeigh, Nichols, and Fortier. Even though a conspiracy requires two or more people.

And the official 911 government/Khahan theory of 19 terrorists planning, plotting, discussing, colluding, and scheming is not a conspiracy theory. What if the official theory changes, which has happened. Does that make the prior official theory a conspiracy theory, since it is now different than the new official theory. Who decides exactly what the official theory is.

My wife has a theory that is identical to the official/Khahan theory, except she thinks they drove a brown car to the airport and not a blue car. This must be a conspiracy theory since it is different than the official theory. So one of those theories would be a conspiracy theory and one would not. Whatever. You're welcome to continue using the wrong definition. But , please be advised that it may result in more instances like Khahan referring to himself as an idiot.

A conspiracy theory is a theory involving two or more people conspiring to do something. Nothing more.
 
774Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Jul 27, 2010, 13:51
My wife has a theory that is identical to the official/Khahan theory, except she thinks they drove a brown car to the airport and not a blue car. This must be a conspiracy theory since it is different than the official theory

And now you are using semantics to divert us away from my question: Where is your proof of a government plan to bring down Building 7?
 
775Mith
      ID: 44658279
      Tue, Jul 27, 2010, 14:04
I have no idea why you find that term so offensive. It's not inaccurate and it's freely used by plenty of people in this thread who have agreed with your contradictions and discrepencies concerning the official version of events.
 
776Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Jul 27, 2010, 14:55
But , please be advised that it may result in more instances like Khahan referring to himself as an idiot.

Well, since you insist on bringing me into this end of the debate:

You do realize that there is a difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory don't you?

What you are defining as 'two or more people conspiring to do something' is a conspiracy.

A conspiracy theory is an idea that there is some subvertive or covert hidden agenda and puppermaster pulling the strings behind and event and its hidden from the publics eye and is not part of the generally accepted version of events.

Hence, there was a conspiracy to blow up the world trade center planned and perpetrated by Osama bin Laden, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and 19 hijackers.

There is a conspiracy theory that the downing of the trade center buildings was not in fact done by those I mentioned above was was really pulled off my members of the US government.

The conspiracy is grouned in truth and have physical evidence to support it. The conspiracy theory is grounded in innuendo and leaps of faith and pulls its evidence from sources unrelated to the event but still tries to make a connection.

I will note, occassionaly conspiracy theories prove to be true, such as with the weapons of mass destruction. But in this case no evidence is out there to support the 'government did it' conspiracy theory right now.
 
777Boldwin
      ID: 356152721
      Tue, Jul 27, 2010, 22:15
I would like to reiterate once again that it is not a theory that the government allowed the WTC to be attacked. The original truck bombing had a government agent right inside the conspiracy. Given that fact, anyone claiming the government didn't conspire to allow the WTC to be attacked is just delusionally avoiding incontrovertable evidence.
 
778Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Jul 28, 2010, 09:16
Can you expound upon your last post, Boldwin? In what way did the federal government conspire to allow the WTC to be attacked? The actions of a handful of rogue agents within a massive organization do not represent the intentions of the organization itself.
 
779nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Mon, Aug 02, 2010, 09:54

Khahan There is a conspiracy theory that the downing of the trade center buildings was not in fact done by those I mentioned above was was really pulled off my members of the US government.

conspiracy is grouned in truth and have physical evidence to support it. The conspiracy theory is grounded in innuendo and leaps of faith and pulls its evidence from sources unrelated to the event but still tries to make a connection.


I honestly mean this in no insulting way but your grasp of the concept is a bit simplified.

We've been discussing conspiracy (theory) here almost since the political guru board started.

We've weighed in with lots of evidence, not just "innuendo".

You have a lot of catching up to do reading dozens of old threads if you want to seriously enter the debate unless you think that those who've studied the subject, sometimes for decades, (In my case anyway) are being proven wrong simply because you insist it's so.

I don't think "the government" took down the world trade center, but I also don't believe the official explanation. I do think that in some ways there were Muslims involved, but not on their own.

Have you examined all the evidence about 9/11? Or just a quick read? Because even the non conspiracy people on the board have not been able to explain a lot of the odd circumstances surrounding the events of the day.

Indeed some people who years ago were completely anti conspiracy have come around at least in this case that something is amiss about 9/11 (Billiburn).

A conspiracy theory is an idea that there is some subvertive or covert hidden agenda and puppermaster pulling the strings behind and event and its hidden from the publics eye and is not part of the generally accepted version of events.

Well are you sure about that? There have been lots of polls taken where large groups of people have questioned the "official" explanation.

More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East, according to a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll.

The national survey of 1,010 adults...


link


Here is a Zogby poll

The polls that have received the most widespread media attention are those conducted by Zogby International. The Zogby polls have been sponsored by organizations within the 9/11 Truth Movement including 911truth.org.

The first one was conducted in August 2004, on the eve of a Republican National Convention, on 808 randomly-selected residents of New York State. It found that 49 percent of New York City residents and 41 percent of New York state citizens believe individuals within the US government "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act".[4] The margin of error for this poll was 3.5 percent.


Here's more:

The second major Zogby poll on 9/11 was conducted in May 2006. It was a telephone interview of 1,200 randomly-selected adults from across the United States, consisting of 81 questions, with a 2.9 percent margin of error.[5] Some of the questions asked include the following:

"Some people believe that the US government and its 9/11 Commission concealed or refused to investigate critical evidence that contradicts their official explanation of the September 11th attacks, saying there has been a cover-up. Others say that the 9/11 Commission was a bi-partisan group of honest and well-respected people and that there is no reason they would want to cover-up anything. Who are you more likely to agree with?"

* Responses: 48% No Cover-up / 42% Cover-up / 10% Not sure

"World Trade Center Building 7 is the 47-story skyscraper that was not hit by any planes during the September 11th attacks, but still totally collapsed later the same day. This collapse was not investigated by the 9/11 Commission. Are you aware of this skyscraper's collapse, and if so do you believe that the Commission should have also investigated it? Or do you believe that the Commission was right to only investigate the collapse of the buildings which were directly hit by airplanes?"

* Responses: 43% Not Aware / 38% Aware - should have investigated it / 14% Aware - right not to investigate it / 5% Not Sure

"Some people say that so many unanswered questions about 9/11 remain that Congress or an International Tribunal should re-investigate the attacks, including whether any US government officials consciously allowed or helped facilitate their success. Other people say the 9/11 attacks were thoroughly investigated and that any speculation about US government involvement is nonsense. Who are you more likely to agree with?"

* Responses: 47% Attacks were thoroughly investigated / 45% Reinvestigate the attacks / 8% Not Sure

The third major Zogby poll regarding 9/11 was conducted in August 2007. It was a telephone interview with a target of 1,000 interviews with randomly-selected adults from across the United States, consisting of 71 questions, with a 3.1 percent margin of error.[6]


So not exactly a fringe group believing that not is all as it seems.

These are all sited on Wikipedia with footnoted references given.

link

 
780Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 02, 2010, 11:02
On the other hand, there are some of us who have read through all those threads and still believe most of the theories are simply a belief that what is unknown carries much more weight than the known.

I can show all sorts of things from polls in which Americans believe things that are demonstratively false. Pretty much any poll on the economy, for example, are projections of feelings or an outright wrong.
 
781The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Aug 02, 2010, 11:38
Maybe we can get some of those "forces" who caused 9/11 to run our country because at least those people can get things done.
 
783Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Mon, Aug 02, 2010, 13:11
Nerve: I don't think "the government" took down the world trade center, but I also don't believe the official explanation. I do think that in some ways there were Muslims involved, but not on their own.

Have you examined all the evidence about 9/11? Or just a quick read? Because even the non conspiracy people on the board have not been able to explain a lot of the odd circumstances surrounding the events of the day.


I'll give you this part 100% as being plausible. Again, not sure what evidence there is to support it, but there is not direct evidence to contradict this and the idea that forces outside of the taliban were working with them are plausible.

However, I think you need to separate yourself out from some of the other theories in this thread as some people have basically flat out said the government planned it. While I'm basically derisive towards the 'government did it theories' I'll readily admit that its very plausible that there is more to the story.

 
784Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, Aug 02, 2010, 13:20
direct evidence

Your link in #770 that bin Laden was responsible for the 9/11 attacks is hardly direct evidence, so please refrain from using that phrase when referring to this subject unless you actually have some direct evidence to present.

 
785nerveclinic
      ID: 390561510
      Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 17:22
separate yourself out from some of the other theories in this thread as some people have basically flat out said the government planned it

The government is millions of people. I don't think anyone here believes a monolith government did this. People questioning are just confused by the evidence and are guessing a few people, a small number, within the government are likely involved if there is more to the story.

So in terms of "semantics" I don't think that means the "government" did this. It's just a phrase people use because there is likely some involvement.

There are just so many honest questions and a seeming attempt not to answer the questions, even if the PD's of the world who believe all is good and any fears are just illusion are correct, ...why the cover up?

 
786Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 17:23
You had me until the baseless smear, nerve.
 
787nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 17:45


It wasn't a smear PD. I was just referring to your post 780.

You are generally sceptical of anything other then the official
explanation. Even when there are lots of questions. You are
entitled to that belief system. I am just questioning it.

The point of the pols I posted wasn't to show any theory was
"right" just to counter the perception that it's a small, "crazy"
minority who questions the official line.

link

 
788Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 19:02
You're as bad as Baldwin in believing I completely buy the "official line" (whatever that is).

to counter the perception that it's a small, "crazy" minority who questions the official line.

Where, exactly, have I stating that this is my perception? #780?

Mostly, I've spent this thread tamping some over-the-top "theories" which are put forth mostly to demonstrate how "open minded" the poster is being by doing so. I've also taken pains, in a number of posts, to demonstrate how your questioning (both in tone and content) is different from those crazies who do things like state that "no Jews died in the WTC" and "how weird is it we found something from one of the terrorists in the wreckage in PA?"

Slapping down outrageous anti-"official line" theories doesn't mean I buy the "official line" hook, line, and sinker. It means I hate to put up with crap arguments in lieu of good thinking. And on the question of 9/11, most of the crap arguments are being put forth by the conspiracy theorists.
 
789The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 13:15
Kinda on topic. Do you think the devil faces in the 9/11 photos are real? Take that to mean either that the photos are authentic or that you actually think that's the devil.
 
790Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 14:27
I have no reason to think the image was faked. Watching a single large cumulus (sp) cloud for an hour will undoubtedly produce some images that look like other things. An explosion like the one caused by the attack produces a rolling boil of a smoke plume that is not unlike maybe an hour or more of a cumulus cloud's evolution, sped up to a few seconds. As I recall you have to slow down the video to see the image, and that it last maybe 5 or 6 frames. Pour over the footage of that explosion frame by frame and I'd bet there are other random images that you could make out.
 
791Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 15:41
Well said MITH. Sure there was a face there. Was it was altered? Probably not. Was it actually the devil? No.

Was it more likely just a random configuration of smoke and debris and dust? Yep.

I've found in life that the simplest most straight forward answers are usually the right ones.
 
792Frick
      ID: 44748912
      Mon, Aug 09, 2010, 15:46
Re: 791

Occam's razor
 
793nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 14:33

PD Mostly, I've spent this thread tamping some over-the-top "theories" which are put forth mostly to demonstrate how "open minded" the poster is being by doing so.

I think there are two things happening in the conspiracy world that fit in with your concerns.

1) There's the "Jewish" conspiracy group, "it's all the Jews, they are taking over the world, they are behind everything." I've been to conspiracy theory conventions, I have a box of books on the subject, and none of them blame "the Jews".

This is an alternative, completely seperate cult that has nothing to do with the people I have heard speak or who's books I've read.

The second point are the wacko theories, and what is behind them? Are they possibly plants, to discredit the simple idea that there are some things going on behind our back to bring changes in the world in a subversive way?

The existence of those two groups, doesn't mean that there's no validity to the more rational concept of subversive, hidden manipulation of world events.





 
794Khahan
      ID: 13126822
      Sat, Sep 11, 2010, 19:48
Just so nobody forgets.

A few photos of that fateful day 9 years ago. The date lives vividly in my mind. Where I was, what I was doing, what was going thru my mind. When I first heard I was at work and immediately did a search for the live feed of the video mounted high up on the towers. Nothing. Nothing came through.

Word spread quickly. Our office manager called a meeting and everybody was told what happened (though most of us had heard). She set up a tv in a meeting room and turned on the news and gave peple free leave to sit and watch. I did for about 15 mins then was told I had a phone call. It was my brother. My dad was in Manhatten that day and nobody could get hold of him.


I went home. Later that night after worrying my heart out over my dad, he finally got thru to my mom that he was ok. He had been in a hospital at the other end of the island when the planes hit. He said the air was so thick with dust people couldn't breathe and even a mile away he was picking up letterhead with the trade towers address stamped on it from various companies housed there.

It took him 3 days to get out of NYC.
 
795Boldwin
      ID: 46881217
      Sun, Sep 12, 2010, 19:16
B7 is gonna appreciate this site.
 
796Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 13:51


Fireman: There may be more, any one of these buildings could blow up.

This video was obtained after numerous FOIA requests and a couple lawsuits. Most of the videos and pictures from the NIST "investigation" have recently been released due to the lawsuits. NIST was in possesion of this and still claims there was no evidence of explosions. There are probably over 100 eyewitnesses of explosions on 911. And they admittedly never checked for explosives.

Here's .......more on the investigation, if you're interested.
 
797Frick
      ID: 42825248
      Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 14:45
Could an explosion have been caused by one of the fuel tanks? A vessel filled with a flammable material (liquid or gas) won't explode. It will simply burn. But, once the mix of fuel to air hits the right ratio, it will cause an explosion. I had a physics teacher who loved to demonstrate this property. He would take a paint can and punch a hole in the lid. He would fill the can with methane and put the lid on. He would then place a match over the hole and it would start to burn. The flame would grow smaller and smaller until it disappeared. A short time later (10-20 seconds) it would explode, blowing the lid off the paint can.

So, could one of the 10,000 gallon tanks make a pretty big explosion?
 
798Boldwin
      ID: 291370
      Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 14:47
Not the multiple 'grenade' sounds reported.
 
799Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 21:20
Frick: I think you're talking about Building 7. NIST claimed those fuel tanks were not the cause. They also said the North Tower falling on it was not the cause. Those firemen were talking about one of the twin towers.
 
800Building 7 Ph.D.
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 22:25
Here are some physics experiments that cast doubt on the official theory:

 
801Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 22:55
cast doubt on the official theory

Cast doubt? That's very diplomatic, but as the narrator so plainly states at the end of the presentation - NIST is wrong

 
802Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Dec 19, 2010, 19:43
This show is about the Pentagon attack on 911.



 
803Boldwin
      ID: 3511322020
      Mon, Dec 20, 2010, 22:35
Amazing how that Olsen call story falls apart. Neocons found a way to get a conservative to provide cover story. And really how unlikely the one call would be made into the WH to an admin insider. Were such a call possible. Makes the 'real' fate of Olsen's wife, a thorn in the side of the Skull&Bones, look even more sinister.
 
804nerveclinic
      ID: 01154411
      Tue, Dec 21, 2010, 00:54


I don't like the style of the video. It's such a serious subject and Ventura production technics make it come off cheesy.

I don't understand why it wasn't produced more straight forward and less hyped, flashy production.
 
805Boldwin
      ID: 161136215
      Tue, Dec 21, 2010, 06:36
He's Jesse. He's not gonna come across like he was introducing Masterpiece Theater. I thot they had an admirable dose of rigor bringing up a number of angles I hadn't seen and some I had been aching to see someone present.
--------------------
It's hard to underestimate how evil nasty Skull&Bones can be. I'm really starting to see Cheney as dark as the left does.
 
806Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Dec 21, 2010, 07:38
Every episode is like that, nerve. I agree, it's some cheesy dramatic effect. It's better than any other investigative reporting on TV, though.
 
807nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Dec 22, 2010, 01:34

I didn't realise there were multiple episodes involving other subjects.

Baldwin who said anything about Masterpiece theatre? I was talking about serious journalism when discussing 3,000 dead Americans and possible treason at the highest levels of government.

 
808Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Dec 22, 2010, 08:09


There have been 15 episodes of Conspiracy Theory with Jesse Ventura. This is an episode guide with links. You can switch between Series 1 and Series 2.
 
809Boldwin
      ID: 561149228
      Wed, Dec 22, 2010, 13:20
Wherein we discover which day was the 365'th.
 
810Tree
      ID: 60121615
      Sun, Mar 13, 2011, 18:02
not sure where else to put this:
Pilots on an Alaska Airlines flight locked down the cockpit and alerted authorities after three passengers conducted an elaborate orthodox Jewish prayer ritual during their Los Angeles-bound flight.

ignorance is bliss.

it does crack me up, because the ritual in question is hardly elaborate, but rather, routine. it is, in fact, done daily, it is so routine.
 
811Boldwin
      ID: 462371311
      Sun, Mar 13, 2011, 18:21
Would that be you wishing they had profiled and thus known they could ignore it?
 
812Tree
      ID: 60121615
      Sun, Mar 13, 2011, 18:46
um. it's not profiling to have basic knowledge of other religions.
 
813PuNk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 036635522
      Tue, Mar 15, 2011, 13:27
How many people know small things about other (multiple) religions, let alone even one in these days?
 
814Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Mar 24, 2011, 17:32
Pentagon worker takes Bush administration to court


Top Secret Military Specialist April Gallop saw disturbing things up close that have not been reported in the media.

On the morning of September 11, 2001, she was ordered by her supervisor to go directly to work at the Pentagon, before dropping off her ten-week-old son Elisha at day care.

Amazingly, the infant was given immediate security clearance upon arrival.

The instant Gallop turned on her computer an enormous explosion blew her out of her chair, knocking her momentarily unconscious.

Escaping through the hole reportedly made by Flight 77, she saw no signs of an aircraft – no seats, luggage, metal, or human remains. Her watch (and other clocks nearby) had stopped at 9:30-9:31 a.m., seven minutes before the Pentagon was allegedly struck at 9:38 a.m.

The 9/11 Commission reported that "by no later than 9:18 a.m., FAA centers in Indianapolis, Cleveland, and Washington were aware that Flight 77 was missing and that two aircraft had struck the World Trade Center."

Why then were there no anti-aircraft defenses, Gallop asks, or alarm warnings inside the Pentagon?

Gallop was briefed by officials not to tell her story in public; she also received an email from a Fox News reporter who had been told by the Pentagon not to interview her.


 
815biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Thu, Mar 24, 2011, 17:56
Did her baby survive?

Why would she ordered not to drop her baby off at daycare?
 
816Nerveclinic
      ID: 29123923
      Thu, Mar 24, 2011, 18:20

I don't understand the relevance of this...

she was ordered by her supervisor to go directly to work at the Pentagon, before dropping off her ten-week-old son Elisha at day care.

or this question...

Did her baby survive?

Why would she ordered not to drop her baby off at daycare?


In the context of the other more important points raised in the post.




 
817biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Thu, Mar 24, 2011, 18:26
I didn't understand the inclusion either.

I did want to know if her baby survived, because it would impact motive and emotional stability.
 
818Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Mar 24, 2011, 19:06
The baby lived. They were both taken to the hospital where April claims that while she was in the hospital, she was visited by men who tried to convince her that the Pentagon was hit by a plane.


link
 
819Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, May 25, 2011, 09:16
People Could Have Planted Bombs In the World Trade Center Without Anyone Noticing from Washington's blog / prisonplanet.com
 
820Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, May 25, 2011, 11:56
So the main premise of that article is that people could have planted bombs in the WTC. Agreed. I actually don't disagree with that. A bomb could have been planted. In fact bombs have been planted before in the WTC.

But B7 and Boldwin have put forth that the explosive devices used the chemcical thermite. As has been demostrated ( debunking911) its the sheer volume of thermite that would be needed that makes the 'planted a bomb' scenario impossible.

Also, there are various accounts of people in and out of the WTC around 9/11. Umm, yeah. Elevator repairmen, contractors working on power. And this is significant how? It proves nothing. It doesn't even hint at anything. I bet you right now today in the Empire State Building and Sears Tower there are elevator repairmen working on elevators and some areas of those buildings have power issues.

Is there evidence that some of the people who are probably normally there (not specific names, but any generic group of repairmen from ACE for example) were suspect? So far, none. Show that and I'll listen.

 
821Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Wed, May 25, 2011, 13:45
Obviously the elevator repairmen and electricians are part of the conspiracy. How else would they not notice the tons of explosives and miles of wiring needed to topple a building. Knocking over a building is not as simple as throwing some explosives in a pile and then igniting them. I would say that most electricians and elevator repairmen are probably secretly skull and bones or possibly freemason.

Now, where did I leave my tin foil hat again, there is a satelite pass that I need to prepare for.
 
822Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, May 25, 2011, 13:53
Elevators were disaster within disaster from USA Today.

On Sept. 11, ACE Elevator of Palisades Park, N.J., had 80 elevator mechanics inside the World Trade Center.

On Sept. 11, the mechanics left on their own, without instructions from police or fire officials. ACE Elevator supervisors say this was consistent with the emergency plan. All the mechanics survived. "We had a procedure. We had a procedure to follow, and they (the mechanics) followed it," Niederau says.

But the Port Authority says the emergency plan called for mechanics to stay and help with rescues. "The manuals consider many emergency scenarios and describe the role of the mechanics in detail in responding to them," Port Authority spokesman Allen Morrison says. "There was no situation in which the mechanics were advised or instructed to leave on their own. They were, depending on the situation, to be dispatched to various emergency posts or to respond to various passenger entrapments and to assist police, fire and other rescue personnel."

 
823Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, May 25, 2011, 14:12
Sounds like their union rep got on the horn...
 
824Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, May 25, 2011, 14:40
B7, way to ignore some information and I'm really not sure what you are trying to prove, but here are the 3 paragraphs preceeding your quote:

"We were standing there trying to count heads when the second plane hit (the south tower)," said Peter Niederau, ACE Elevator's supervisor of the modernization project. "Parts of the lobby and glass were coming down around us, so we all got out of the lobby as fast as we could."

They left in different directions. Some went through the underground shopping mall. Others went out onto Liberty Street. Had they stayed, they would have been about 30 yards from the two express elevators where firefighters tried unsuccessfully to save people. Another mechanic was in the north tower's 78th floor elevator lobby — where Savas and other people were trapped — when the first jet hit. The mechanic was knocked across the lobby, then evacuated safely, the ACE Elevator supervisors say.

"(We) went out to the street to assess the damage and come back in as needed," says James O'Neill, ACE Elevator's supervisor of maintenance. The plan was to return to the building later in the day to help with rescues. The strategy had worked after the 1993 terrorist bombing, when many of the same mechanics — working for Otis Elevator, which had the contract then — were hailed as heroes."


So they were in imminent danger with glass and debris falling around them and they relocated to a safe location to await further instructions.

When you take it as a whole, that seems very reasonable to me. Nothing they did that should raise suspicion.
 
825Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, May 25, 2011, 21:15
I go out of my way to try to answer your question and you are totally unappreciative. I'm sorry I didn't get what you want. Don't ask me again.
 
826sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Wed, May 25, 2011, 21:53
You're going out of way to disregard that factual information contained within your link; which contra-indicates what you are predisposed to believe.
 
827Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, May 25, 2011, 23:03
What am I predisposed to believe?
 
828Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Thu, May 26, 2011, 11:45
B7, you didn't even attempt to answer my question about the workman. I asked if there was evidence that all these workman who are there every day were acting suspicious and you chose to point out that when the fit hit the shan they moved to a safer location to get organized (notice in your own chosen accounting they were still taking a head count on their own people).

So I guess you did answer my question - they were acting like normal, rational people.
 
829sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Thu, May 26, 2011, 12:07
re 827....That Obama is not eligible for the Presidency, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary;

That the workmen acted/reacted in an entirely normal and professional manner, consistent with their historic actions in relatively similar circumstances,

That solid evidence to the contrary of a conspiracy, is trumped by hack-kneed "what if" theories put forth by attention seekers.
 
830Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, May 26, 2011, 12:32
That solid evidence to the contrary of a conspiracy, is trumped by hack-kneed "what if" theories put forth by attention seekers.

I suppose it's relevant to re-visit the security situation at the WTC prior to and on 9/11.

Certainly no solid evidence of a conspiracy, but as Burns notes:

But the suggestion is inescapable that any investigation into security arrangements preceding 9/11, at some of the nation's most sensitive facilities, has been impeded to this day by narrowly political concerns in the White House. "Mayberry Machiavellis" strike again: Rather than face possible embarrassment at disclosing Bush family interests in the security industry, Team Bush has stonewalled any concession to the public interest, statesmanship or even common sense. Every public statement from the White House seems designed to direct public attention toward Middle Easterners and away from Americans doing business with them &endash;- at least if their name is Bush.

From a purely business or political perspective, stonewalling might be understandable. But from the perspective of the victims' families or of the public, it looks odd. This is the White House we're talking about. In all the public expressions of sorrow or pity for the victims, it would have been natural, surely, for the president to say something along the lines of "Why, my own brother was part of that business. He and all of us are heartbroken" etc etc. But such comment has not been forthcoming. He might even have said, "My own relatives, if they had any transactions that might have any connection at all with the individuals involved, will turn over every record" etc. But that statement has also not been uttered.




 
831sarge33rd
      ID: 372291615
      Thu, May 26, 2011, 14:06
and never will be. Not that it proves any conspiracy, just demonstrates that Bush's driving force was greed, not compassion, not patriotism, nor right or wrong...pure, unadulterated, unabashed...g-r-e-e-d.
 
832Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, May 27, 2011, 22:50
There was no situation in which the mechanics were advised or instructed to leave on their own.

Now, it's rediculous to think all 80 were in on it. Plus, if they planted explosives, it would likely have been done at night; which would be a different crew than the day shift.
.....................
re 827....That Obama is not eligible for the Presidency, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary; (Has nothing to do with 911)

That the workmen acted/reacted in an entirely normal and professional manner, consistent with their historic actions in relatively similar circumstances,(they made rescues in the first trade tower attacks)

That solid evidence to the contrary of a conspiracy (So you think one person pulled this off), is trumped by hack-kneed "what if" theories put forth by attention seekers.

 
833Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, May 27, 2011, 22:53
Richard Humenn P.E. - WTC Chief Electrical Design Engineer

 
834Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, May 27, 2011, 22:56
Tom Sullivan, Explosives loader for Controlled Demolitions, Inc.

 
835Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Mon, May 30, 2011, 10:52
So was Tom Sullivan an explosives loader for CDI or a photographer?

His evidence boils down to Building 7 looked like a controlled demolition, ergo the towers were also controlled demolitions. I think there might be a flaw in his logic, but I could be wrong.
 
836nerveclinic
      ID: 40352125
      Thu, Jun 09, 2011, 17:24


He Knew what was coming.

 
837Boldwin
      ID: 45549918
      Thu, Jun 09, 2011, 19:54
Sears Tower next?
  • Silverstein owns it, check.
  • Group given permission to work on building for 'artwork project', check.
  • Same insurance company, check.
  • Kroll [company] responsible for security, [and involved in Britain's 7/7 terrorism incident], check.
  • Recent terrorism drills, check.
  • Red Dragon drill planned June 10. Sorta like 11/9/01 only 10/6/11
  • Asbestos problems, check.
  • BTW the actual 'Red Dragon' recently sold down on short term T-bills going from 210 billion to 6 billion.
There are worries about the AON Center in Chicago as well.
 
838Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Jun 09, 2011, 23:53
Mayor Rahm Emanuel: "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste", check
 
839Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 00:34
Question for B7 - have you ever heard any 9/11 inside-job conspiracy "evidence" which you dismissed on your own?
 
840Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 00:36
That's so 2006.
 
841Boldwin
      ID: 45549918
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 02:38
B7

You have just got to check out The Catbird's Nest. The site will save you a lifetime's worth of googling. It is all organized and laid out exhaustively. Just about any subject you likely have an interest in.
 
842Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 09:44
Off the top of my head. some of these are dubious:

directed energy beam
missile fired from plane right before hitting tower
Saddam Hussein did it
no plane hit the Pentagon
plane flew over Pentagon
..............

Mr. mith, Are you aware of any conspiracy theories that turned out to be true , and if so, how can you be sure this one is not true?
 
843Mith
      ID: 657210
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 10:29
I've never said I'm sure, and even admit there are some parts of the story that don't seem to add up. But not enough or significant enough to lead me to conclude that it was most likely an inside job. I'd like to think I have an open mind on the issue but evry time someone trys to make a case it seems like there are a few interesting arguments but most of their points don't make any sense. Like the argument that jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel. Or that Building 7 took longer to fall than a free fall should take. Or that someone inside one of the buildings heard multiple explosions.

And anytime an engineer or physicist advances one of those points, his credibility shoots right out the window because an honest observer with those type of credentials should obviously know better than to present such things as evidence of an inside job.
 
844Boldwin
      ID: 45549918
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 12:52
Circular reasoning at it's finest.
 
845Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 15:00
Lol. What kind of reasoning is it called when you gleefully advance every last Kenyan birth certificate and cockeyed birther theory you come across and suddenly drop the subject don't have two minutes to look at solid evidence that would force any honest observer to rethink all the various "codes" he claims to have cracked.

Circular reasoning my foot. You go ahead and put your faith in "physicists" who don't understand high school level physics or engineers who are shocked that the demise of some of the worlds tallest buildings would include a few explosions before they come down.
 
846Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 16:48
Do you, or anybody else, have any comment on the high school level physics experiments seen in post #800.
 
847Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 17:04
Do you, or anybody else, have any comment on the high school level physics experiments seen in post #800.

The very first hypothesis about mass slowing down when impacting other mass is assuming that the roof fell on the top floor which then fell onto the floor below it which then fell to the floor below it and so on and so forth all the way down.

Watching the video clearly shows this neatly organized 1, 2, 3 step collapse the narrator is implying happened did not happen. Therefore, its easy to conclude that you not see the effect they are claiming didn't happen.

Then there is also the fact that all the examples given (cars hitting another car, a hammer hitting a nail) are not parallel examples. In a building collapse, even in a story by story collapse like they imply should be happening, there is this force called 'gravity' which will continue to pull the floors above down towards a terminal velocity.
 
848Frick
      ID: 52182321
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 20:10
1. As a PE the author of the video in 846 should at least admit that the materials used in his experiments don't accurately reflect the scenario he is trying to model.

2. The 3 clips of buildings not completely collapsing are failed implosions. He states early in the video that an experiment needs to completely validate a hypothesis, not stop when it is convienent. Yet that is exactly what the narrator does by cherry picking failed implosions and not doing an analysis of successful implosions.

3. Does he have a justification of the size of the materials that he was dropping? I haven't seen an official report, but the author implies that the top floors broke off and we should have seen a slight pause in the downward motion of the roof. Is it possible that the assymetrical stresses of collapsing members in the upper floors caused members of the lower floors to break and ultimately snap, so there wouldn't have been a slowing until the building was not visible due to the dust.

4. One of the first statements calls into question the knowledge of the video. The narrator claims that it is impossible for the roof to speed up.
"Conservation of Momentum is a fundamental law of physics that cannot be broken" is one of the opening quotes. The narrator is making an assumption that the roof hit something on the way down, which would cause it to slow down. Actually the roof would speed up as it fell. Well, unless the fundamental rule of gravity was broken. So if the comprehensive analysis that he relies on in the beginning didn't detect this acceleration, something appears to be wrong.

acceratoin stupid.
 
849Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 21:06
My comment: case in point supporting #843.

B7, have you ever bothered to search for explanations for any of this stuff?

It's not hard to understand that objects accelerate as they fall (unlike a toy car as it rolls - duh). And the lower part of the structures would be already weakened by the initial impacts and and various following results of the impacts, greatly dampening the resistance they might have otherwise imparted on the top parts of the structures. Further, modern buildings are built to crumble under themselves in the event of such a catastrophe, limiting the footprint of the disaster as much as possible. Combine those two factors and consider that neither of them is addresed in the video, and I'm not impressed.
 
850Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jun 10, 2011, 23:09
Not only that, MITH, but as more weigh gets added to the fall, the resistance of the lower floors is lowered even further--twenty floors having dropped twenty carries a lot of force. Imagine 40 floors having dropped 40, etc.
 
851Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 18:05
So, you’re saying the roof fell on the floor below and then those floors fell on the floor below that, and so on. Plop, plop, plop. Even NIST ditched this theory years ago. Although, the discredited Popular Mechanics piece is still claiming it, in case you want to link that. You don’t think that would slow it down a tad. It took like one second longer than if it had dropped with nothing below it. (See picture in 631 and more explanation in 542) That is why the official government report on the collapse stops at collapse initiation. They say you can watch the video to see what happened. It looks like its blowing up to me. (See posts 485, 588).

Frick: Do you think he is trying to trick people into thinking that hunk of ice is the WTC. I guess the high school teacher could have re-created the 110 story building and then done his test. It would have been too expensive, so he did these tests. It’s more than the government testers did. The car is to show how it slows down when it runs into something, and does not keep going the same speed, Duh. Same with the hammer.

So you think something one sixth the size of a similar item can crush the bigger part. Maybe the other way around. Common sense will tell you that it cannot. Even after looking at experiments, you are disagreeing with what your eyes are seeing. If you have some experiments that show something one sixth the size of a similar item crushing the bigger item to dust, they do not appear in this thread. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. Me, and now 1500 architects and engineers , and Poncho Villa, and Isaac Newton think it’s not possible. And you four, and Dick Cheney, and the neo-cons think it is. If you have a list of 1500 architects and engineers that support the government theory, you are welcome to post it. Now, explosives would explain it.

And, mith you can give this impartial stuff a rest. Any reading of this thread would lead one to conclude otherwise. 98% of your questions and comments oppose the alternate theory, and only 2% question the official theory.
 
852Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 21:32
the discredited Popular Mechanics piece

Saying it doesn't make it so, though this is a very common tactic against many pieces of science by the Right.

MITH can speak for himself, but by my reading he's questioning the process you have for considering an "alternate" theory (as if there is only one...)
 
853Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Sat, Jun 11, 2011, 22:48
So, you’re saying the roof fell on the floor below and then those floors fell on the floor below that, and so on. Plop, plop, plop. Even NIST ditched this theory years ago

Actually, I'm saying that did NOT happen, which is why you cannot expect to see the reduction in speed that your little video is parrotting as proof of a conspiracy.
 
854Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jun 12, 2011, 09:34
So you think something one sixth the size of a similar item can crush the bigger part.

Of course it can, when you're talking about things in which most of the area inside the object is not solid matter, but open space. The mass of the upper sections vs the mass of the lower sections doesnt matter. You have to look at the mass of the upper sections vs the integrity off the support holding it up. Weaken that support by a major jolt to the entire structure, followed by resulting internal explosions and other factors taking place and as the top part starts to give the whole weakened structure buckles further, allowing the lower parts to fully collapse as the supports above give and the crushing weight of the upper structure comes crashing down on it.

98% of your questions and comments oppose the alternate theory, and only 2% question the official theory.

Funny coincidence, that. It just happens to be right about the same ratio of reasonable points presented vs stupid bs.
 
855Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Jun 12, 2011, 17:47
Of course it can, when you're talking about things in which most of the area inside the object is not solid matter, but open space

Here are some early pictures of the construction of the WTC. mith refers to these 47 inner core steel columns as not solid matter, but open space. Reader scan decide for themselves whose posts are BS.

Photobucket

Photobucket
 
856Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jun 12, 2011, 18:09
Yes, reader should do just that, and decide for themselves whether those columns make up anything close to the majority of the interior of the structure.

Reader could then explain to B7 that vast majority of the interior of an office tower is in fact open space, occupied by things like people with enough room for them to walk around and enough air for them to breathe. I will agree that if the WTC buildings were constructed as fully solid blocks of steel with no interior empty space, they would not have collapsed in the manner in which they did. But it might be somewhat difficult to lease office space in such a structure.
 
857Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jun 12, 2011, 18:43
About 75% of each floor was usable space--an achievement reached by using express and local elevators and having two sky lobbies.

WTC 1 & 2 had a total of 10 million square feet of space.
 
858Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Jun 12, 2011, 19:57
Like I say, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Question for the Impartial Four:

Is there any part of the official theory that you disagree with? Or

Is there any part of the official theory that you think warrants additional investigation?

 
859Mith
      ID: 5631099
      Sun, Jun 12, 2011, 22:47
Those are well-tempered and very fair questions.

I have some suspicions about Silverstein. It was claimed in this thread that he took out some type of terrorism insurance shortly before the attacks. If true (and I don't know what sources were cited) that raises an eyebrow at the least. But it would have to be a reliable enough source (more reliable than Jerome Corsi, for example) since it would be a rather obvious implicator of prior knowldge. I'm not all that impressed by the "pull it" quote, since it doesn't seem all that unlikely that he was just botching fireman vernacular he'd head earlier ("pull them" referring to ordering the remaining firemen to vacate the building).

I've also heard or read about other people who seemed curiously lucky by way of receiving some unlikely beneift or not being present for some unlikely reason but I'd have to look back to recall the specifics and look into the sources of that info.

Such things would indicate prior knowledge that at least "something" was coming, though wouldn't necessarily prove involvement or even complacency.

I'll also admit that I'm also not 100% convinced that Building 7 wasn't a controlled demolition, even if I think the official account is the most likely one and that most of the contentions presented as evidence or proof of a controlled demo have been pretty well explained otherwise to my satisfaction.

I think the thing that bothered me most (and which I don't believe I ever received a satisfactory explanation for) was the quick destruction of the steel beams. But it's been a long time since I've taken a very hard look at this stuff and there might be one or two others.

I don't believe President Bush likely had prior knowledge. That he was apparently hosting members of the Saudi royal family and quickly whisked them off seems more likely to exonerate him of knowledge than to make a case for it. I'm sure he wouldn't want them in the country at all if he knew the attack was coming and intended to protect them with such extraneous and suspicious-looking measures as allowing theirs to be the only non-military plane in the sky.

Without reading through 800 posts from the past 6 years, that's the best I can do for you.
 
860Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jun 12, 2011, 23:30
I should also add, noting again how long it's been since I've given this stuff a lot of thought or research, that it's possible that some of my remaining questions have been answered to my satisfaction and that I've simply forgotten.

I'm sure even B7 will concede there's an awful lot of nonsensical "evidence" to wade through in this or just about any discussion on this topic to get to the occasional nugget of a fair question. I think his 98% figure was right on the money.
 
861Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Sun, Jun 12, 2011, 23:43
One more thing which has previously occurred to me: for those who just can't wrap their head around those buildings collapsing mostly onto their footprint, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that a secret very tightly kept from the public is that some of our largest buildings have explosives installed in them for the purpose of initiating a controlled demolition in the event of a catastrophic event such as an attack or massive earthquake, for the purpose of limiting the destruction in the surrounding area.
 
862Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 08:28
Re: 861

The thought process makes sense, a building like WTC or the Sears Tower could take out a large number of other buildings if it toppled over. I doubt that it is likely, as when most buildings are imploded, key supports partially cut and explosives just cut the remainder. I can't see having the amount of explosives needed packed into a building with the potential for an accidental detonation.

Re: 858

Yes, there are parts that I don't feel were investigated as deeply as they warranted.
 
863Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 10:13
there are parts that I don't feel were investigated as deeply as they warranted.

That was by design. Here's just one
glaring example.

Two investigators on the 9/11 Commission, Mike Jacobson and Dana Leseman, compile a list of interviews they want to do to investigate leads indicating that two of the 9/11 hijackers, Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi, were linked to elements of the Saudi government. The list is submitted to Philip Zelikow, the commission’s executive director, for approval. However, a few days later Zelikow replies that the twenty interviews requested is too much, and they can only do half the interviews. Leseman, a former Justice Department lawyer, is unhappy with this, as it is traditional to demand the widest range of documents and interviews early on, so that reductions can be made later in negotiations if need be.
'We Need the Interviews' - Leseman tells Zelikow that his decision is “very arbitrary” and “crazy,” adding: “Philip, this is ridiculous. We need the interviews. We need these documents. Why are you trying to limit our investigation?” Zelikow says that he does not want to overwhelm federal agencies with document and interview requests at an early stage of the investigation, but, according to author Philip Shenon, after this, “Zelikow was done explaining. He was not in the business of negotiating with staff who worked for him.”


The 9/11 commission was a monumental waste of time and money, since the executive director, in charge of the investigation, was blatantly involved in a conflict of interest.
 
864Boldwin
      ID: 345491315
      Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 16:49
MITH#861

I love to see you taking a step outside the box. A halting and unlikely step but the important thing is that you are not hypmotized by the zeitgeist.
 
865Boldwin
      ID: 345491315
      Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 17:02
You might think that designing in such a way that a building could be easily decommissioned might come into play in the design process but I don't remember hearing that kind of thinking from my architectural school days.
 
866Mith
      ID: 23217270
      Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 17:12
I wouldn't go so far as to say I've taken that step, since that would suggest or sound like I believe it's likely. I'm just musing. But if it were true, I could see why it might be a guarded enough secret that architecture undergrads wouldn't be privy.
 
867Boldwin
      ID: 345491315
      Mon, Jun 13, 2011, 22:16
I'll give you this. It's the only innocent explanation that I've seen for the demolition charges clearly seen going off.

Anyone ever in military demolition? Would they trust explosives to stay safe, stable and useful for the entire life of a skyscraper? Unlikely but I'll entertain the idea just for fun.
 
868Boldwin
      ID: 96150
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 02:56
Follow the trail of dead bodies.

Especially as they relate to the CIA's Porter Goss dining with the head of Pakistan intelligence ISI in the hours leading up to 9/11.
 
869Boldwin
      ID: 96150
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 03:00
Yeah, they considered it alright.
 
870Boldwin
      ID: 96150
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 07:35
Quill and Dagger, Marsh Mclennan, Kroll

Click on 'Click To Play'
 
871Boldwin
      ID: 96150
      Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 08:55
I once spent an entire day researching Kroll which is barely mentioned in that piece. They are connected to everything 9/11 and terrorism in general.

Kroll will just make a coincidence theorist swell with pride knowing that ignoring private business intelligence fronts seemlessly connecting all the dots. Can I hear an oblivious 'Nothing to see here, please move along' from the zeitgeist congregation?
 
872Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Nov 25, 2011, 08:12
Israel did it
 
873Tree
      ID: 41512710
      Fri, Nov 25, 2011, 09:16
it's the jews! blame the jews! omg, blame the jews!

what a bunch of idiots. and hopefully you don't actually believe the garbage you just posted.
 
874Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 17:16


Excellent 15 minute video on Building 7 narrated by Ed Asner. Click the link to youtube and watch it on fullscreen, it's high quality video.
 
875nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 11:57

Would love to hear some debunking of that video...smirk.

 
876nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 17:21

Just curious if any of the conspiracy skeptics would be willing to tear apart the video that B7 linked to? I sincerely would like to hear the alternative view.

 
877Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 19:12
Coincidence theorists aren't accountable for the facts and details.
 
878sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 19:31
<--not qualified to address an engineers contentions. I lack the specific education/skill sets; to injtelligently counter. Nor, do I much care to watch/hear many more conspiracy theories anyway.
 
879Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 17:48
777 wing stress test

What happens when you stress a beam to much? Here's an example of from the new Boeing 777. Now imagine that happening to multiple members of the WTC snapping simultaneously and mistaking the sound for explosions isn't out of the question.

Statics (the engineering study of loads) is fairly simple in theory, but real world scenarios quickly become amazing complex and interactive.
 
880nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 00:00

"Now imagine that happening to multiple members of the WTC snapping simultaneously and mistaking the sound for explosions isn't out of the question. "

Frick we are discussing building 7. It wasn't hit by a plane. Did you watch the video? 1,500 engineers sticking there neck out saying it had to be a controlled demolition.



 
881nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 00:02


I understand 33. The truth is painful.

 
882Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 08:35
My comment was directed at the sound that people heard and is being assumed to be explosives. When metal beams snap, it is a very loud sound. When multiple beams snap at the same time I can see it being heard as explosives, especially when you add in the distortions that result from the sound echoing.

I didn't say the stresses were the result of being hit by a plane. Building 7 had some unusual architecture as it was rebuilt from the first WTC attacks and it was built around an existing building. When it was rebuilt it was made larger and modifications were made to the foundation to handle the additional size.

I'll admit I didn't watch the entire video. I've heard Ed Asner interviewed and he comes across as a crackpipe. So this could have been discussed, but the unusual design of the building and a key portion of the structure failing resulting in the entire structure failing appears at least possible based memory of a college statics class.
 
883nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 16:04

My comment was directed at the sound that people heard and is being assumed to be explosives. When metal beams snap, it is a very loud sound.

OK but the point is, there was no reason the beams would have gotten hot enough to to snap in the first place. This is what the experts in the video were arguing. Asner is only in the video for a few moments to narrate. It's mostly the architects and engineers going into scientific explanations of why it couldn't of been caused by the planes.


 
884Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 16:59
Beams don't have to be hot to snap, they can snap from stress. The beam of the 777 in the video isn't being heated, just stressed to it's breaking point.

Having 2 1,300 tall buildings collapse virtually on top of a building that was already bombed once and rehabbed seems to at least be relevent to the discussion of the building collapsing. As I said, if those factors were addressed and explained, I apologize. The videos in the past always left those factors out and explained while everything else being equal the building wouldn't just collapse.
 
885nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Tue, Feb 07, 2012, 22:03

Because Frick the two towers didn't fall on B7, no one has claimed they did, even govt "experts" who say it fell naturally say that it was from the fire, no one has ever said the Twin Towers fell on top of it.

 
886Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 19:30
But they do fall when the owner tells the demolition team to 'pull it'.
 
887Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 19:48
As discussed before in this very thread, "pull" was in reference to the responders that were in there--the teams were being pulled out.

Saying it again won't give you double points.
 
888Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 20:05
We've heard your rationalization before. We've got ears.
 
889Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 20:16
What does 'pull it' mean?
 
890Mith
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 20:28
Of course the FDNY was in on it too.
 
891Nerveclinic
      ID: 52134819
      Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 20:34

Why muddle the debate with the "pull it" argument which can always be explained away with semantics. It's not important when we have such overwhelming convincing arguments made by engineering experts in the video. That's my focus now.

 
892Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 20:40
I agree. The insistence that "pull it" means only what they want it to mean cheapens the overall argument, and makes it seem less like open minded people and more like a take-it-or-leave it mentality.
 
893Mith
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 20:42
If you're referring to 888 it was more of a "STFU I already know what you think" mentality.
 
894sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 20:42
works for me
 
895nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 03:42
Sarge "Works for me".

Ah are you following the current discussion? The link you provided is discussing the collapse of the world trade center. We've been discussing B7.

I see no reason to even worry about the World trade center at this point because until the Government can explain how B7 collapsed like a controlled demolition, even though it was not hit by the plane, everything else is open to question.


 
896sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Wed, Feb 15, 2012, 21:20
Yes NC, I have been following. However with satisfactory presentations that WC wasnt deliberate, I see no logical reason to assume any other was. They are pieces of the same puzzle. Remove trhe foundation upon which some of it stands, and the whole thing collapses. House of cards...thats all it is.
 
897Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 09:08
Controlled demolition of building 7 has a lot of holes in it. First one is:

1. How was it rigged with nobody knowing?
There's plenty of discussions above about elevator contractors access etc concerning the WTC buildings up to the day of the impact, but what about building 7? A controlled demolition requires hundreds if not thousands of pounds of explosives, wiring connecting it all, precision placement, detonators. So how did all that work get done?

2. Where are the explosions and smoke? Videos and links above show the collapse of building 7. Yes, the way it falls certainly resembles the way many controlled demolition buildings fall. But watch any videos of controlled demoltions and you'll see 2 things:
a) multiple grid-like flash points.
b) individual smoke columns from each flash point before the collapse.

Both typical characteristics of a controlled demolition are absent from building 7.


Here's a few videos of controlled demolitions and you'll see points a and b that I'm referring to. Some of them you do have to watch *very* closely to see, but a and b are always there:




31 story building

JL Hudsons Dept Store in Detroit, Michigan

Florida chemical plant

building in Honalulu

Contrast those known controlled demoltions to this video:

building 7

Note what is missing.
 
898boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 11:03
I completely agree with your statement (a) I think if nothing else it makes the whole conspiracy seem impossible, I will however disagree that I am not sure that your video examples are good evidence for (b) only because the video angles and quality are a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

One thing did come to my mind from watching the videos there is conspiracy going on here and it is that I don't think the buildings were built correctly, If there is any cover up going on it is that had the buildings be built better none of them would have collapsed.
 
899Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 11:12
that your video examples are good evidence for (b) only because the video angles and quality are a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

Thats why I included multiple videos. The point isn't how they collapse. The point is in every video,no matter what angle its taken from, there are visible signs of a controlled demoltion. Those signs are not visible in the video taken on 9/11 of building 7 collapse (though there are multiple fakes out there where people used editing programs, they are easily identifiable as fake even to an untrained eye. But if somebody wants to post them as proof, please feel free. I have no doubt they won't hold up to scrutiny here).

Again, I'm not necessarily posing a theory on why building 7 collapsed, rather pointing out that the 'controlled demolition theory' is not viable.
 
900boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 11:31
I guess when I look at the videos i see mostly apples clearly framed video, while the building 7 video is only of the top floors with a sound track over the top. I can not compare that video to the rest and make any kind of judgment besides they look similar.
 
901nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 17:31
Khahan in the vids you are showing no one was disguising the fact it was a controlled demolition, therefore the explosives are put in places visible from the outside. If you were taking down the building and wanted it to appear like an accident, you would plant the explosives in such a way that they would not be seen. They knew there would be cameras on the building.

I just keep going back to the experts, they know more then me and you, 1,500 signed a statement that it was a controlled demolition. They said over and over there is no other explanation, and they know a lot more then I do.

Sarge "However with satisfactory presentations that WC wasnt deliberate," I don't think your link was even attempting to prove that, it simply was trying to disprove one arguement about controlled demolition on the Twin Towers in terms of the evidence of visible thermite.

Sarge 2 "Remove the foundation upon which some of it stands, and the whole thing collapses." incorrect logic. If there is overwhelming evidence that B7 was taken down by a controlled demolition, then it makes it probable that there is a lot more to the story.

Khahan "1. How was it rigged with nobody knowing? " Childs play for a master.




 
902boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Feb 17, 2012, 16:00
I am curious why no one addressing the idea here that real crime could be the buildings were built incorrectly.
 
903sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Fri, Feb 17, 2012, 16:40
from 901: Khahan in the vids you are showing no one was disguising the fact it was a controlled demolition, therefore the explosives are put in places visible from the outside.

Come on NC. This is just so much self justification. Charges in a demolition, are placed in order to destroy the structure, not create pretty pictures for the press. Sorry guy, but you are REALLY reaching with that one.
 
904Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Fri, Feb 17, 2012, 17:41
Explosive flashes are easy to muffle. The obviously blacked out all of the windows while they were running the miles of cable that non of the employees saw.

I mentioned the building structure earlier, but it was ignored by NC, because it was signed off by 1,500 engineers, nevermind that the majority of them were not civil engineers. The building had questionable structural problems related to building around a power sub-station plus being rebuilt larger after the first WTC attack. Add to that buildings that it was connected to collapsing almost, but not quite on top of it and I don't see any issues arising from that.
 
905nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 18:09
Sarge: This is just so much self justification. Charges in a demolition, are placed in order to destroy the structure, not create pretty pictures for the press. Sorry guy, but you are REALLY reaching with that one.

What? How can I even debate you if you don't understand what I am saying. You basically repeated my argument. In a normal demolition, they are only destroying the building, therefore they place the explosives for that purpose and they are seen. That is exactly my point. So how am I reaching, you simply repeated my point 33

Frick: The obviously blacked out all of the windows while they were running the miles of cable that non of the employees saw. Why would they black out the windows? the explosives get planted on beams inside the internal structure of the building, there are no windows there, there are no employees to see it, employees stay in the normal areas of the building they don't crawl a round in the interior where there are plenty of beams hidden from site, what is so difficult to understand? Frick have you ever gone into a building, lifted up the drop ceiling, pulled yourself up inside, and started crawling around in the non occupied areas of the building, where the AC vents are, where electrical is, oh and by the way try doing that in a building where the Secret service is housed? What is so Fricking hard to understand?

Frick I mentioned the building structure earlier, but it was ignored by NC The main secret service offices in New York were housed in this building. If I were a betting man I would assume the secret service were so stupid they picked a building about to fall apart at the seams and badly built as their headquarters? In addition, these three skyscrapers, are the only ones in the history of the world that collapsed like a controlled demolition, when they apparently weren't collapsed as controlled demolitions.





 
906sarge33rd
      ID: 4717718
      Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 18:19
Well NC, you are right...one of us is not understanding the other. (and the one? it aint me)
 
907Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, May 21, 2012, 17:40
Plaza Hotel Building Becoming Barer Before Implosion

I plan on going to this implosion. That building kind of looks like Building 7. I wonder if the top section will collpase first like on Building 7. It looks like the viewing area will be directly down wind from the implosion. I won't be going there. I may have to watch it from Sonic. And all three buildings on 9/11 displayed all of the attributes of controlled demolitions, despite what others are posting here.
 
908sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Mon, May 21, 2012, 17:54
I believe the design of the WTC, had them essentially with exoskeletons correct? SO of course they would appear as a controlled demolition. The strongest part of their "frame", was on the outer perimeter of the building(s).
 
909Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, May 21, 2012, 18:01
He's talking about Building 7, which was framed as a standard building.

Nevertheless, it isn't clear if you are going to the implosion or not B7--are you?
 
910Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Mon, May 21, 2012, 18:06
I thought B7 and the Texas Rangers simultaneously imploded right after game six of the World Series.
 
911Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, May 21, 2012, 18:31
We did, but we've since recovered. Yes, I plan on going, even at 6:30 in the morning.
 
912nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Mon, May 28, 2012, 09:30

Sarge let's try this again, I feel like I've explained this a dozen times.

The discussion has turned away from the WTC buildings themselves and shifted to Building 7 as the most obvious proof there was a controlled demolition.

No building had ever been hit by a 747 with a full fuel tank before so it's harder to discuss precedence, but building 7 wasn't hit by anything except spill over fire from the two towers.

If it can be shown that there was no way that B7 should have collapsed, like a controlled demolition, without any force as dramatic as a plane hitting it, then it calls into question all the governmental line on what happened.

Therefore the movement is focusing on B7.

 
913Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Mon, May 28, 2012, 09:52
but building 7 wasn't hit by anything except spill over fire from the two towers.

This is the point people who want to parrot a controlled demolition theory ignore. The buildings were connected. There are underground parking garages, walkways etc that share common walls (not partitions but load bearing walls).

None of the collapse of WTC happened in a vacuum.
 
914Boldwin
      ID: 43492714
      Mon, May 28, 2012, 18:07
Those buildings are hard to burn down. That is fire resistant sheetrock over concrete and asbestos wrapped steel. It's not balsa that is gonna catch fire from a whiff. That building could have resisted hours of sporadic office fires, especially if the sprinklers had done their job. Which for some reason they didn't for lack of water supply.
 
915Khahan
      ID: 54138190
      Mon, May 28, 2012, 19:45
Sorry, I just don't have time to hand-hold people thru common sense who refuse to see it.
 
916Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 08:09
I believe the design of the WTC, had them essentially with exoskeletons correct? SO of course they would appear as a controlled demolition. The strongest part of their "frame", was on the outer perimeter of the building(s).

See #855 for pictures of massive steel inner core structure.
 
917Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Jun 02, 2012, 08:25


Awesome. The reverse is awesome, too.

Youtube videos of implosion
 
918Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 23:40
B7's favorite link this month
the daily briefs preceding Aug. 6, the ones the Bush administration would not release. While those documents are still not public, I have read excerpts from many of them, along with other recently declassified records, and come to an inescapable conclusion: the administration’s reaction to what Mr. Bush was told in the weeks before that infamous briefing reflected significantly more negligence than has been disclosed. In other words, the Aug. 6 document, for all of the controversy it provoked, is not nearly as shocking as the briefs that came before it.

The direct warnings to Mr. Bush about the possibility of a Qaeda attack began in the spring of 2001. By May 1, the Central Intelligence Agency told the White House of a report that “a group presently in the United States” was planning a terrorist operation. Weeks later, on June 22, the daily brief reported that Qaeda strikes could be “imminent,” although intelligence suggested the time frame was flexible.

But some in the administration considered the warning to be just bluster. An intelligence official and a member of the Bush administration both told me in interviews that the neoconservative leaders who had recently assumed power at the Pentagon were warning the White House that the C.I.A. had been fooled; according to this theory, Bin Laden was merely pretending to be planning an attack to distract the administration from Saddam Hussein, whom the neoconservatives saw as a greater threat. Intelligence officials, these sources said, protested that the idea of Bin Laden, an Islamic fundamentalist, conspiring with Mr. Hussein, an Iraqi secularist, was ridiculous, but the neoconservatives’ suspicions were nevertheless carrying the day.

In response, the C.I.A. prepared an analysis that all but pleaded with the White House to accept that the danger from Bin Laden was real.

“The U.S. is not the target of a disinformation campaign by Usama Bin Laden,” the daily brief of June 29 read, using the government’s transliteration of Bin Laden’s first name. Going on for more than a page, the document recited much of the evidence, including an interview that month with a Middle Eastern journalist in which Bin Laden aides warned of a coming attack, as well as competitive pressures that the terrorist leader was feeling, given the number of Islamists being recruited for the separatist Russian region of Chechnya.

And the C.I.A. repeated the warnings in the briefs that followed. Operatives connected to Bin Laden, one reported on June 29, expected the planned near-term attacks to have “dramatic consequences,” including major casualties. On July 1, the brief stated that the operation had been delayed, but “will occur soon.” Some of the briefs again reminded Mr. Bush that the attack timing was flexible, and that, despite any perceived delay, the planned assault was on track.

Yet, the White House failed to take significant action. Officials at the Counterterrorism Center of the C.I.A. grew apoplectic. On July 9, at a meeting of the counterterrorism group, one official suggested that the staff put in for a transfer so that somebody else would be responsible when the attack took place, two people who were there told me in interviews. The suggestion was batted down, they said, because there would be no time to train anyone else. - KURT EICHENWALD, NYT Op-Ed
 
919sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 23:50
Just watched Mr Eichenwald and Ari Fleischer on AC 360. I'd rather like to read the book, but Mr Eichenwald straight out SAID, he is not at all saying that Pres Bush knew of the attack and chose to do nothing. He is saying that intel was sufficient to have warranted a higher state of alert, than was present domestically, and that insiders of the GWB WH, have said the for several months, GWB didnt appear to much care about terrorism and its inherent threat.
 
920Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Tue, Sep 11, 2012, 23:59
Those are his words in his editorial that I cut and pasted.
 
921sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 00:01
I know, and in his speaking on AC 360, his words, were to deny that he is a "truther", or is supporting any such positions. And NOWHERE in what you posted, does it say that Bush KNEW of the actual attack and then failed to act to prevent it.
 
922Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 00:07
Does it say he knew it would be on exactly 9/11? No. He knew everything else tho.

[His good buddy Buzzy Kronguard knew the right date.]
 
923sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 00:26
No B...he did NOT "know everything else'. Mt Eichenwald said, and says in his piece, that there were sufficient puzzle pieces present, to belief something was up, and to have elevated an alert or readiness status. Something which was not done. He specifically stated on AC 360, that he is NOT saying the administration knew what was going to happen, nor where, nor when. Only that they SHOULD have know something was going to happen.

You, are projecting.
 
924Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 00:35
You aren't the slightest bit interested in the coincidence that every one of these terrorist events 'just happens' to have a mirror counter-terrorism exercise going on at the same time are you? It's all just a big coincidence.
 
925sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 00:47
every one? 9/11 was a singular terrorist event, with multiple components. And you allegation in post 924, has nothing to do with Mr Eichenwald's piece, which is what you are theoretically defending. Diversion, is not going to work here.
 
926sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 00:50
more to the point...it is your false conclusions from Mr Eichenwald's piece, which you are theoretically defending.
 
927Boldwin
      ID: 418371121
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 00:54
7/7 London was very comparable.
 
928sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 02:32
Where, in what you quoted, does Mr Eichenwald SAY that GWB knew the 9.11 attacks were coming, and chose to do nothing?

THAT, was your initial assertion. Quick dodging and ducking your own contention, and support it, or withdraw it.

Where, did Mr Eichenwald, say what you claim?
 
929Nerveclinic
      ID: 52134819
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 05:34

Why did building 7, which wasn't even hit by a plane, collapse like a controlled demolition. That is the most important unanswered question.

 
930Boldwin
      ID: 46859128
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 10:09
Who's the one misdirecting? It's not like I said Bush knew the names of all the hijackers.

[tho since they trained at CIA airports in Florida I'm not at all ruling that out]

Here's what I posted...the actual words I said:

B7's favorite link this month

Everything else was just Sarge spinning out of control.
 
931nerveclinic
      ID: 4711362616
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 15:08

Everything else was just Sarge spinning out of control.

As he is want to do on this thread. Seems to particularly hit a raw nerve with him.
 
932sarge33rd
      ID: 12554167
      Wed, Sep 12, 2012, 15:32
roflmao spinning out of control....

truthers entire premise, is that Bush knew what was happening, before it happened, and was part and parcel OF its happening.

now, reread 919 thru 922, in which you claim Eichenwald said Bush knew.

After that, you went off on a tangent.

Touched a nerve? The lunacy of it, touches a nerve.
 
933Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sun, Sep 23, 2012, 20:53
The White House

Office of the Press Secretary

For Immediate Release September 11, 2012
Notice -- Continuation of the National Emergency with Respect to Certain Terrorist Attacks
NOTICE

CONTINUATION OF THE NATIONAL EMERGENCY WITH RESPECT TO CERTAIN TERRORIST ATTACKS

Consistent with section 202(d) of the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1622(d)), I am continuing for 1 year the national emergency previously declared on September 14, 2001, in Proclamation 7463, with respect to the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, and the continuing and immediate threat of further attacks on the United States.

Because the terrorist threat continues, the national emergency declared on September 14, 2001, and the powers and authorities adopted to deal with that emergency must continue in effect beyond September 14, 2012. Therefore, I am continuing in effect for an additional year the national emergency that was declared on September 14, 2001, with respect to the terrorist threat.

This notice shall be published in the Federal Register and transmitted to the Congress.

BARACK OBAMA

THE WHITE HOUSE,
September 11, 2012.

link
...................
They couldn't just put a lock on the cockpit door and move on.
 
934Boldwin
      ID: 548462415
      Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 23:27
You might be a conspiracy theorist if...

with musical accompaniment
 
935Mith
      ID: 4310402110
      Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 13:16
It's tough out there for singles in the conspiro-theoro-sphere.
 
936nerveclinic
      Leader
      ID: 05047110
      Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 19:30

Nice one MITH
 
937Khahan
      ID: 258231113
      Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 14:23
I thought there was a remembering 9/11 thread but I couldn't find it in the search. This one hasn't been brought up for a while.
 
938Bean
      ID: 5292191
      Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 16:37
My Army Lt Col boss was TDY to DC that day with meetings in the Pentagon. Another Army Lt Col who had just PCSed from my unit to the Pentagon died that day.

I was the chief of the operations center for all DoD communications in the Pacific, and got a call from my Systems Control Officer, a Navy Senior Chief, while I was sleeping. He told me that CNN was reporting that a plane hit one World Trade Center building and there were reports of hits on the 2nd and the Pentagon. I calmed him and told him to call our commander once confirmed, and to try to contact our parent control centers. By the time I got in to work, we had already taken over many of the reponisiblities of our parent control centers in DC as they reconstituted.

Over the next few days, I worked on ensuring that our theater's bombing effort had adequate command and control resources, and started identifying vulnerabilities that may need security forces applied.

Since my boss was no longer available, I assumed his duties and directed deployment of our contingency troops in support of deployed combat capability. I asked our Marine Captain, Matt, to put one of our unit's emblems on a fighter jet's mounted bomb and take a picture for me. That picture made Matt our unit's poster child.

A few months later, I had a USAF Captain who worked for me who was deployed to Iraq. Frank was like a son to me, we were both from Cleveland OH. He sent me a picture of him sitting on Saddam Hussein's throne.

Our best effort wasn't good enough. Terrorism is easy to do, hard to stop. Sorry if that scares you. Grow a pair.
 
939Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 17:34
So what time did you get woken up? Must have been a hell of a long day.

I remember so much of that day, of course. The freakishly quiet skies. The calls to friends in NYC. The puncturing of our innocence about the world.
 
940Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 19:57
I just went through this entire thread, which started over 9 years ago. There's a lot of incredible stuff, very energetic.

I doubt we'll ever see that level of exchange again on this forum.
 
941Bean
      ID: 5292191
      Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 20:15
<939> I normally got up at 0430 Hawaii time each day. Wasnt that much earlier as I recall, havent recalculated.

80 hour weeks were standard procedure for about a month after that, though 60 hour weeks were pretty standard before that anyway.

I dont think many of us dont recall where we were, much like the Kennedy assassination.
 
942nerveclinic
      ID: 8832812
      Sat, Sep 13, 2014, 12:00

I dont think many of us dont recall where we were, much like the Kennedy assassination.

I lived in Seattle so I was on CNN watching before work and saw the second building collapse live. I called out from work, as many did, and sat home watching television all day.

 
943biliruben
      ID: 258431310
      Sat, Sep 13, 2014, 13:51
Yeah, me too. Identical experience to Nerves.