Forum: pol
Page 2817
Subject: The Direction of the GOP II or campaign 2008


  Posted by: Seattle Zen - [49112418] Tue, Jan 02, 2007, 18:27

Giuliani can't be trusted with nuclear secrets.
As former Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani was campaigning for Republican candidates last fall, his aides were secretly planning a Giuliani presidential campaign despite his statements to the contrary, targeting potential donors and assessing possible liabilities, including his controversial former aide, Bernard B. Kerik, and his ex-wife Donna Hanover, according to a 140-page strategy document apparently prepared by Giuliani advisers. The document had been stolen, photocopied, and then returned in a piece of luggage belonging to a staff member that had gone missing.

The public disclosure of the document, which was leaked by a Giuliani adversary to The Daily News, is potentially damaging for Mr. Giuliani, given that he has portrayed himself as a leader on security issues and strategic planning. He gained a reputation as mayor for tightly controlling and shaping public information; such a security breach in any presidential operation, but especially his, stands as an unusual embarrassment, as well as a boon to his potential opponents who want to know his thinking.

Well, at least one Republican has an exit strategy.

One page in the document, according to The News, notes that he might “drop out of [the] race” as a result of “insurmountable” personal and political concerns. On this page, The News says, is a list of bullet points that seem to highlight those concerns: His consulting practice; Mr. Kerik; Ms. Hanover; his third and current wife, Judith Nathan Giuliani; and “social issues,” apparently a reference to his support for abortion rights, gay civil unions and gun control, all of which are opposed by some Republicans.

I'm of two camps. One is in favor of a Giuliani campaign - his "centrist" views on gay rights, abortion and gun control will get viciously attacked which will appall the majority of America, casting the GOP as a den of Rovian right wing zealots. The other camp is terrified by the mere possibility of a Giuliani presidency. I've despised that pig for as long as I've known him, he has a dangerous temper and no known morals.
 
1katietx
      ID: 3810431417
      Tue, Jan 02, 2007, 18:35
I've despised that pig for as long as I've known him, he has a dangerous temper and no known morals.

Gee, that how I felt about Clinton. ;-)
 
2Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Wed, Jan 03, 2007, 13:46
My default assumption has been that President Bush will continue fighting in Iraq, without beginning a troop withdrawal or planning one, until he leaves office. He seems to believe so strongly in what he says that I can't imagine him changing his mind. That leaves GOP presidential candidates, entering the '08 primary season, with the choice of following their president and committing themselves to a position that will guarantee election defeat, or renouncing their president's position, splitting the party and creating the image of a party in disarray, all likely leading to election defeat.

The only way out of these scenarios in the Republican Party persuading President Bush that he must accept the inevitable and begin withdrawal himself. I find it hard to imagine who would do that, or how.

The purpose of this post is to note 2 recent pieces of commentary that create a little bit of hope in this regard. The first is found in these excerpts from Robert Novak:
President Bush and McCain, the front-runner for the next presidential nomination, in pressing for a surge of 30,000 more troops, will have trouble finding support from more than 12 out of 49 Republican senators. ''It's Alice in Wonderland,'' Sen. Chuck Hagel, second-ranking Republican on the Foreign Relations Committee, told me in describing the proposed surge. ''I'm absolutely opposed to sending any more troops to Iraq. It is folly.''

What to do about Iraq poses not only a national policy crisis but profound political problems for the Republican Party. Disenchantment with Bush within the GOP runs deep. Republican leaders around the country, anticipating that the 2006 election disaster would prompt an orderly disengagement from Iraq, are shocked that the president now appears ready to add more troops....I checked with prominent Republicans around the country and found them confused and disturbed about the surge. They incorrectly assumed that the presence of Republican stalwart James Baker as co-chairman of the Iraq Study Group meant it was Bush-inspired (when it really was a bipartisan creation of Congress). Why, they ask, is the president casting aside the commission's recommendations and calling for more troops?

Even in Mississippi, where Bush's approval rating has just inched above 50 percent, Republicans see no public support for more troops. What is happening inside the president's party is reflected by defection from support for his war policy after November's election by two Republican senators who face an uphill race for re-election in 2008: Gordon Smith of Oregon and Norm Coleman of Minnesota. Coleman announced his opposition to more troops after returning from a trip to Iraq before McCain's.

The number of Republicans willing to oppose the President's policy on Iraq will grow slowly throughour this year. A congressman or two one week, a senator a few weeks later.

The second piece of commentary is more directly relevant. Late last year, David Brooks suggested just how GOP pressure might manifest itself:
MR. BROOKS: If I could say something about internal Republican politics and about this show. I hope Josh Bolten, the White House chief of staff, was watching Gingrich this first half of this show. Gingrich said, “Unless we fundamentally restructure what we’re doing in Iraq, we will not win.” He is not far off from where a lot of Republicans are. Probably where most elite Washington Republicans are.

So what’s going to happen? These Republicans do not want to run in 2008 with Iraq hanging over. They never want to face another election like that. So at some point, six months, eight months, there’s going to be men in gray suits. There’s going to be a delegation going into that White House saying to President Bush, “You are not destroying our party over this.” And Bush will push back. But that’s going to be the, the tension. Talk about world—American support for the war, it’s Republican support in Washington for the war that the president needs to worry about.
I think the "men in grey suits" reference may have derives from Brooks' time covering politics in England. The "men in suits" are the establishment figures who come to visit the leader of the party, even a sitting prime minister like Margaret Thatcher, when the party has decided that it's time for the leader to go.

I'll be following GOP disaffection with the war and how it shows itself with interest.

Toral
 
3Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Jan 03, 2007, 14:34
That leaves GOP presidential candidates, entering the '08 primary season, with the choice of following their president and committing themselves to a position that will guarantee election defeat, or renouncing their president's position, splitting the party and creating the image of a party in disarray, all likely leading to election defeat.

The only way out of these scenarios in the Republican Party persuading President Bush that he must accept the inevitable and begin withdrawal himself. I find it hard to imagine who would do that, or how.


Great post and I agree completely. I envision a group of Republicans talking with Reid about the timing of the next Pentagon appropriations bill. If you get the news cycle right, you could have dozens of senators from both sides of the aisle speaking out against sending more troops into Iraq. You could have dozens of generals down to soldiers testifying that increasing the troop levels will only increase the body bags. Poll after poll will be trumpeted by the media saying how every demographic measurable is against this war and more importantly, how Americans do not think that lowering troop levels is admitting defeat. Bush doesn't want to look like he started and ended a losing war. Take away "loss" and maybe we can get something done.

If the Senate overwhelmingly defeats the appropriation bill to increase the troop levels in Iraq, Bush will have no choice but to consider the beginning of the end.
 
4Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Wed, Jan 03, 2007, 15:19
My suspicion is that congressional defeat of Bush's forthcoming set of proposals is not likely, whether it includes an increase in troop levels or not. I think there will be sentiment on both sides of the aisle to give Bush "one last chance". As a purely practical political matter, it is not in the Democrats' interest to defeat Bush appropriation measures now. They would risk inheriting some Iraq blame now. There would always be a group of people saying "if only Bush's proposals had been tried...". Instead, the Democrats can question Administration figures closely over Bush's forthcoming plan (whatever it is), indicate that they don't think it will work, but grudgingly pass the appropriations anyway. They will want to give Bush enough huge quantities of top-grade rope with which to hang himself.

how Americans do not think that lowering troop levels is admitting defeat. Bush doesn't want to look like he started and ended a losing war. Take away "loss" and maybe we can get something done.

I think you have something there. I have been thinking that Bush, or maybe some GOP candidate, sould just change the spin. Instead of a retreat in defeat, position the withdrawal as a tough warning to Iraq that we're not willing to spend our resources there indefinitely, plus a threat to withdraw by a certain date if Iraq fails to make enough progress in organizing itself. It's all image. The tough cowboy vs. the dog running away with its tail between its legs. I see Bush as too committed to make that change, but I could see some GOP presidential candidate picking it up.

Toral
 
5Perm Dude
      ID: 3405938
      Wed, Jan 03, 2007, 15:35
I think it would be smart to frame it like the debates about welfare reform. As a compassionate country, we're willing to stick our necks out to help you get a leg up, but there's a limit to how much help we can give you--you have to make efforts on your own.

I'm afraid much of the debate, however, will center on just how much the Democrats sabotaged the effort. Thank God we're not hearing any more "cut and run" nonsense.

pd
 
6Tree
      ID: 1411442914
      Thu, Jan 04, 2007, 11:03
while a new congress gets ushered in, we apparently still have the same jackass as president. damned shame anyone voted for this guy, much less, twice.

Bush Reportedly Signs Law Allowing Warrantless Searches Of Mail
 
7Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Jan 05, 2007, 11:53
 
8Perm Dude
      ID: 15014811
      Mon, Jan 08, 2007, 16:27
In the 1990s, prominent conservatives suggested that President Clinton was a murderer, a conservative senator warned that the president might be shot if he visited that senator's state, and a Republican majority leader told Democrats, "Your president is just not that important to us." And there were many other nasty episodes. But ever since a Republican has held the White House, certain conservatives have decided that political anger is now the main problem of American life and that it resides primarily on the left.

Jonathan Chait
 
9Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Mon, Jan 08, 2007, 22:27
Re: 3

Democrats may deny funds for Iraq surge
Another senior Democrat, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, said one option under consideration would be for lawmakers to vote on denying the use of funds for any increase in the U.S. deployment. Officials said late Monday night that the Massachusetts Democrat was preparing legislation that would require Congress to approve the deployment of more troops, and was hoping for a roll call on the topic swiftly — before any increase is implemented. More broadly, Reid signaled that Bush's expected call for an additional $100 billion for the war would receive close scrutiny from newly empowered Democrats. "We have a platform we didn't have before, Leader Pelosi and I, and we're going to ... focus attention on this war in many different ways," said Reid. Speaker Nancy Pelosi (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif., suggested over the weekend using Congress' power of the purse to restrain any troop buildup.
 
10sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Jan 09, 2007, 12:33
3 years ago, more troops would have made a difference.

2 years ago, more troops most likely would have made a difference.

1 year ago, more troops may have made a difference.

At this point? The area has deteriorated to the point, I have serious doubts as to what could be accomplished by pumping more bodies into the region.
 
11Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Wed, Jan 10, 2007, 20:43
Sam Brownback's opposition to the surge is a fascinating development:
“I do not believe that sending more troops to Iraq is the answer,” said Brownback. “Iraq requires a political rather than a military solution. In the last two days, I have met with Prime Minister Maliki, with two deputy presidents and the president of the Kurdish region. I came away from these meetings convinced that the United States should not increase its involvement until Sunnis and Shi'a are more willing to cooperate with each other instead of shooting at each other.”
There are 3 obvious GOP presidential candidates. There's room for one more serious candidate -- someone who will run to the right of Romney, as the "true conservative". Brownback, a social and religious conservative, has been the most frequently mentioned member of a group that includes Mike Huckabee of Arkansas, Frank Keating of Oblahoma, somebody named Gilmore from Virginia, and other obscure names.

Brownback's position creates the possibility that the 4th major candidate in the race would be a social and religious conservative also running as a peace (withdrawal) candidate.

Toral
 
12Perm Dude
      ID: 140201014
      Wed, Jan 10, 2007, 20:44
It really is to bad for the Reps that GWB soiled the Bush name so much that Jeb Bush isn't even a possibility.
 
13Pancho Villa
      ID: 1311532913
      Wed, Jan 10, 2007, 21:19
Toral,
Aren't you forgetting Newt?
 
14Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Jan 26, 2007, 12:37
 
15Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 11:33
since the November elections, it has been VERY quiet around here.

the choking conservative atmosphere that was pervasive in this country, and on this board, seems to have dissipated.

admittedly, i don't really pay attention to the cheerleaders like Coulter and Limbaugh and O'Reilly until someone points out how silly they are being, but it just seems very quiet.

in our own little world, Baldwin essentially vanished after his heroes were swept out of office after a long series of bad soap opera-esque scandals, both personal and political. even some top religious leaders in this nation left thier positions of power after scandals of their own.

MBJ, who always seemed the most centrist of the conservatives, almost seems to be leaning left these days. even Toral, who at times had some of the strongest vitrol on this board, appears to have toned things down.

others came in quickly, and left just as fast. Steve Houpt anchored the right for a long time, then took his leave.

it's almost like the last 6 years were one long, bad, psychoactive drug trip frenzy. when it finally ended, some chose to gravitate more toward prevailing thought, and at least open their ears and listen. others, like Baldwin, couldn't live without the drug, and fell into oblivion.

it just seems so weird to me, having a few months now to look back and reflect and what i believe history books will show as a very dark era in out country's history - the first six years of the Bush presidency.

it really does seem like not much more than a bad, bad dream, albeit one we will be dealing with the reprecussions of for years to come.
 
16sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 12:52
...i believe history books will show as a very dark era in out country's history - the first six years of the Bush presidency.

This is I believe, and absolutely true theory. I fear that more harm/damage was done to this nation over the past 6 years, than those who are currently living will ever be able to imagine. Only those who follow, who have to cleanup afterwards and live with the outcome, will truly know the extent of the devestation laid by shrub and company.
 
17boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 13:01
the choking conservative atmosphere that was pervasive in this country, and on this board, seems to have dissipated. when exactly was this?


i wonder what the history books will say. though i doubt they will be as dark as think they will be.
 
18Perm Dude
      ID: 2914028
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 13:09
It could be worse. Bush/Cheney's grab at executive power will be looked upon quite like FDR's attempt to pack SCOTUS to get the New Deal approved past the objections of Congress. But with many more American deaths.
 
19boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 13:40
Yeah things could be worse the economy could suck, i do find it amazing that the economy has done as well as it has during the bush administration dispite negative factors of high oil prices, terrorism fears, and a terrible war the economy is still running strong. just goes to show how little influence the president has on it.
 
20sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 13:42
the economy is going great guns, long as the economy you refer to and participate in, is the one relevant to those making 6+ figures annually. For the remainder of the workforce,...its repos and BKs and....
 
21boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 13:50
well maybe if they did not spend more than they make and/or given loans that they probably can not afford they would be repoed. though you might have explained why the economy is doing so well when every one is spending so much business tend to make more money.

sarge you sound a little like micheal moore in roger and me.
 
22Perm Dude
      ID: 2914028
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 13:57
Much of the economy for the first 5 years or so of Bush's term was driven by the hot real estate market (which, in turn, was fuelled by historically low mortgage rates).

There are some things that the President can do for the economy, but they tend to be like ripples in a pond. A pond of syrup, because they take some time to take effect.

But the economy is actually helped, to some degree, by the deficit spending of the government, combined with the war (which helps those many companies which supply the military with everything from Post-Its to helicopters).
 
23boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 14:09
PD i guess that was pretty much the piont i was making, i just allways find it amazing that clinton gets credit for building a strong economy that for the most part was fueled by the dot com boom while other presidents will get blamed for its falure, bush sr., carter.
 
24Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 49848118
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 14:14
The strong economy that rightists credit bush for refers specifically to current trends and considers no account whatsoever for our extraordinary deficit spending which will be a huge price to pay in the future.

The economic policy that Clinton and the Gingrich Congress rightfully deserve credit for are fiscal restraint applied at the time. The future was not mortgaged for quick profits in the present, unlike today.
 
25Perm Dude
      ID: 2914028
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 14:19
Yeah, I certainly agree, MITH. If we all went out and maxed out our credit cards the economy would be looking pretty good.

And the short-term economic boost of all those American funerals won't help because those consumers aren't around anymore.

I agree with boikin that Clinton tends to get economic credit where he really shouldn't, but he tends to get no credit at all on the balancing of the budget so I guess it evens out.
 
26boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 14:19
MITH i think you give too much credit to wrong parties and i mean people not in terms of political.
 
27Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 49848118
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 14:40
Boikin exactly who in your opinion deserves the credit for the budgetary restraint in the 1990s?
 
28The Treasonists
      Sustainer
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 14:58
Re: Tree, Post #15.....I used to post some conservative stuff here. I stopped after getting insulted every 2 or 3 posts by some of your liberal friends here. It gets old being called a moron for daring to make a non-liberal comment.
 
29Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 49848118
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 15:07
"Stuff" is an interesting choice.
 
30katietx
      ID: 3810431417
      Fri, Feb 02, 2007, 15:27
I got tired of being called an idiot (or worse), even by the likes of baldwin (who constantly told me I was a liberal-lol). As an independent conservative (and there is a difference between that and a republican), I more often just read rather than being bullied by the liberals. I do indeed agree with some liberal ideas, as well as some conservative ideas; however, I prefer to make up my own mind and not follow a strict party line.

Why does it seem so damn hard to discuss differing points of view regarding politics and/or religion without resorting to name-calling and bashing?

Perhaps I'm more of a libertarian than an independent.
 
31Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 07:48
I'm still gathering evidences of Republicans who share my terror at the GOP's prospects in 2008 if the war is not ended. This week I add Joe Scarborough.:
The slow demise of the national Republican Party just took a turn for the worse. Hard to believe that the GOP’s prospects could actually become more bleak after two years of unrelenting bad news, but it has.

Republican senators are now turning their rhetorical guns away from Democrats and toward one another. A few conservative Republican senators, whose votes usually cheer me up during bleak political times, are actually accusing Virginia’s senior senator, John Warner, of providing comfort to terrorists....

The message from the Bush administration seems to be this: “Thanks for carrying our water on this miserable war for four years. Now we’re going accuse you of helping terrorists.”....

It’s one more reason I have grown increasingly distraught over the GOP’s direction in recent months. The president is prepared to take his administration and his party over the cliff to prove that he right about Iraq—even if most of his generals and the majority of Americans disagree....

At some point, GOP senators and congressmen need to understand that this war is no longer a battle between Republican war heroes and Democratic 60s hippie freaks. The lines have now been blurred by Bush’s bungling war strategy. Now we find ourselves in a fight between war heroes and war heroes. Former secretaries of Navy and former Vietnam POWs. Conservative Republicans and protectors of the president.

That may not be so bad for George W. Bush in the short run, but it is a disaster for Republicans in 2008 and beyond.

Conservatives had better wake up before all the gains made by Ronald Reagan and the 1994 Revolution are lost. The clock is ticking.


Bob Novak also continues to be on the story, in an article about the views of GOP pollster Frank Luntz, who was instrumental in constructing the Contract With America:
Luntz views 2006 election defeats as ominous portents, GOP congressional leaders see only transitory setbacks and now dwell on bashing Democrats.

Like Cassandra of ancient Troy, Luntz's prophecies of impending disaster have been both accurate and disregarded. Republicans never have been that comfortable hearing critics in closed conferences. He is not invited to such meetings today. "They do not want to hear the truth," Luntz told me. While truth-telling is celebrated by Republican reformers who include presidential front-runner John McCain, it is a decidedly minority view in the GOP....Luntz is not alone in his gloomy prognosis. Republican pollster Bill McInturff believes his party underestimates the 2006 outcome, and he thinks the GOP outlook is as dangerous as it has been "at any time since Watergate."
Beltway politics nerd Norman Ormstein, in an article I am not going to look up, is, predicting what he calls the "Nixon scenario", but which I call, after David Brooks above, the "men in suits" scenario, whereby a collection of GOP bigwigs call on the President after the surge has been shown to fail, in 6 months or so, and tell him the war must end.

Toral
 
32walk
      ID: 3511361116
      Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 10:22
I think, more and more, the Republicans are going to throw their hats in behind Giuliani for 2008. He is more apt to capture the middle ground vote in the Presidential election, and he has the potential, personality-wise, to galvanize the voters. He is just more electable. Although not thrilled with his social platform, I doubt the conservative base would vote for Hillary or Barack or Edwards over Rudy, and while they may vote for McCain over Rudy in the primaries, I think more Republicans will think: "Rudy has a better chance of winning the big, final, Prez election than McCain, so we ought to bet on him, he's better than having a Dem."

Personally, as a NYC resident the last 13 years, I liked Rudy for helping to clean-up the city and run things well, but he's too much of an autocrat and a "we/they" type leader. For example, while he reduced crime, his crime fighting tactics were very unappreciated by non-white folks. I'd still rather have him than McCain, but I'm not crazy about his "my way or the highway" style as mayor.

My two cents.

- walk
 
33Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 49848118
      Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 10:34
If Iraq doesn't look any better by mid-late '07, look out for Sen. Hagel.
 
34Pancho Villa
      ID: 37154320
      Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 12:50
Hagel is a pariah in the Republican party and has no chance after his confrontaional stance against Bush.
McCain is not far behind, but not for Iraq. His bill with Feingold and, more importantly, his position on immigration and the borders will keep him out of it.

That leaves Giuliani and Romney as the most viable candidates. Rudy has far more baggage, and that 9/11 hero BS is just that. The base is more likely to forgive the Reaganesque flip flop of Romney on abortion and gay marriage, than accept Rudy's perceived anti-values positions on abortion and gun rights.

Bloggers like Hugh Hewitt, Charles Mitchell of Evangelicals for Mitt and Michael Medved have come out in strong support of Romney.

If there's a dark horse in the field, it's Newt Gingrich, who staunch Republicans love, but not so much the public-at-large.

A Romney/Gingrich ticket would be formidable.
 
35Tree
      ID: 43133321
      Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 13:45
Gingrich and Hagel scare me the most. i think Rudy leans a bit too far to the left on some issues, and i think Romney will find a way to insert his foot in his mouth one too many times.

the republican base is pissed off at the status quo, and someone different like Hagel might just be what they want.
 
36Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 15:36
PV:Yes I ignored Newt. Personally as a president I love him, he's the smartest person in the race easily (with a nod to Hillary) but his negatives in the polls are horrendous, maybe even worse than Hillary's. People still hate him, to be blunt.

BETTOR'S ALERTWatch out for Hagel in the early primaries, especially New Hampshire. Support for the war is declining. Establishment conservatives and neo-conseratives are spitting contempt at Hagel. Yet, about 50% of the GOP base is against the war. Half of that base will support the President/party line. 25% of GOP voters could get it up for an anti-war candidate.
 
37Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Mon, Feb 05, 2007, 15:38
I meant to add: 25% in a 5-corner race can be a victory.

Remember the winner of the 1996 NH primary: Pat Buchanan.

Toral
 
38Perm Dude
      ID: 201262417
      Sat, Feb 24, 2007, 18:53
Rudy kicking some early ass.

This is being projected as an early indication of Rudy's strength, but the second most important number in that poll is that only 15% are undecided this far out. This means the hard right candidate (whoever that will end up being) should be able to to pull together most of the rest of the votes (giving him perceived momentum).
 
39Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 4144179
      Sat, Mar 03, 2007, 10:50
The direction of the GOP: Ann Coulter at CPAC
"I was going to talk about John Edwards but these days, you have to go into rehab if you say the word 'faggot,'"
Andrew Sullivan:
When you see her in such a context, you realize that she truly represents the heart and soul of contemporary conservative activism, especially among the young. The standing ovation for Romney was nothing like the eruption of enthusiasm that greeted her.
Also from Sullivan:
Being a gay man in a crowd that cheers a woman denigrating someone for being a "faggot" is an educative experience. Seeing college kids line up to worship her tore me up. These kids deserve better. They're young and smart enough to be interested in conservatism - and this is what they are getting? From a stage where two presidential candidates just spoke? I guess I've been a bit of a smug ironist who just got mugged by conservative reality.
Ed Morrissey:
Yeah, that's just what CPAC needs -- an association with homophobia. Nice work, Ann.

At some point, Republicans will need to get over their issues with homosexuality. Regardless of whether one believes it to be a choice or a hardwired response, it has little impact on anyone but the gay or lesbian person. We can argue that homosexuality doesn't require legal protection, but not when we have our front-line activists referring to them as "faggots" or worse. That indicates a disturbing level of animosity rather than a true desire to allow people the same rights and protections regardless of their lifestyles.
...................
Also, if CPAC continues to invite Coulter to these events, then unfortunately, these little rhetorical bombs reflect on conservatives. We just spent most of the week criticizing John McCain for not meeting the conservative base at CPAC. If Coulter said this in an interview on her own, it would not have reflected on CPAC or conservatives but on herself. Yesterday, though, she used our platform for that little nugget of vileness -- and some in the audience cheered her for it. Conclusions can reasonably be drawn from that.
 
40sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Mar 03, 2007, 11:54
"I was going to talk about John Edwards but these days, you have to go into rehab if you say the word 'faggot,'"

Fortunately, and unlike coltergeists comment above...the following is accurate, the same isnt true when you say the word "bitch".
 
41Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Mar 06, 2007, 08:12
Poetry
WASHINGTON (AP) _ A video is worth a thousand words. And dollars, too.

Prominently featured on John Edwards' presidential campaign Web site is a video of conservative commentator Ann Coulter insulting him. And with just a mouse click you can hear the invective and get a chance to donate at the same time.

On Friday, Coulter, a writer and columnist known for provocative remarks, told an audience at the Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington: "I was going to have a few comments on the other Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards, but it turns out you have to go into rehab if you use the word 'faggot,' so I _ so kind of an impasse, can't really talk about Edwards."

The Edwards camp is now seeking to capitalize on the slur by soliciting $100,000 in "Coulter Cash" to "show that inflaming prejudice to attack progressive leaders will only backfire."
 
42Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 10:20
 
43Perm Dude
      ID: 624238
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 13:37
Just read where Judith revealed she's been married 3 times as well.

I think, however, that the divorce thing doesn't play as well as Democrats think. Most people don't think of divorce as a shameful, anti-family action. In fact, for some families, divorce can be a very pro-family action. So I think the Dems would do well not to moralize on that point.

I've been looking over this very large Pew Center Report (pdf) which shows some real damage to the Republican Party (and, IMO, a slight opportunity for the Dems to step into the breach).

Also, many of the attitudes surveyed seem to reflect Democratic Party stances, such as:

"affirmative action programs to help blacks, women and other minorities get better jobs and education." (70% agree)

"Women should return to their traditional roles in society." (51% completely disagree--take that, Rick Santorum!)

"The best way to ensure peace is through military strength" (49% agree--the lowest Pew has ever recorded)


Maybe because the percentage of people claiming they have "old-fashioned values about family and marriage" have declined to 76% from 85% just ten years ago.

I'm interested in what others might have taken from the survey.
 
44Pancho Villa
      ID: 42231410
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 14:03
New Republican dark horse.

Fred Thompson?
 
45Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 14:48
From post 43



Oh my...
 
46Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Fri, Mar 23, 2007, 14:55
To the left, to the left.
To the left, to the left.
Mmmmm
To the left, to the left.
Everything you own in the box to the left

To the left, to the left.
Don't you ever for a second get to thinking
You're irreplaceable
 
47Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Sat, Mar 24, 2007, 12:00
Very interesting report; but rather than comment on it, I'm going to use it as background to a thread I've been planning on opening since the last election as soon as I got a demographic report to provide some substance to it.

Toral
 
48Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 10:38
at this point, there are so many threads about the various corruptions of the regime of George the Lesser, i don't even know where to post things like this...

White House unofficial e-mail accounts draw scrutiny
 
49Perm Dude
      ID: 29358107
      Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 10:50
Maybe a thread with just the apparent corruptions? Kind of a one-stop-shopping thread for GWB's legacy.
 
50Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 11:45
PD - that might be the longest single thread in the history of these boards.
 
51Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 11:48
on a whim, i did a search for all topics with "Bush" in the subject line.

pretty funny stuff, and this is just the first page:
Bush impeachment???
JFK 2 - The Bush Connection (Video)
The Legacy of GW Bush - Not In My Backyard
The Bush Administration as a military dictatorship
Ramping Down Bush's War on Terror
George Michael on George W. Bush
Bush: Neo-Con or True Conservative
GW Bush is a lying liar liar pants on fire.
New book questions Bush's Religious Sincerity
How much will Bush poll number raise this week?
Bush plans military base on Moon to combat aliens
Bush: Bin Laden " “not a top priority"
Enron, Bush's White Water
More of wonderful Bush Cronyism...
Bush: Oversight provisions don't apply to me...
Scalia to get a chance to vote against Bush?
Bush on Meet the Press
Bush on the lack of WMDs- "what's the difference?"
Bush Seeks Funds for Abstinence Education
Ordering a pizza in the post-Bush world
Did Bush Lie
Bush's Presidential Address
But I thoguht Bush hated 'Black People'
Bush's reception at summit in Argentina
Bush should release the Stratigic Oil reserve NOW
Bush continues to assault this planet....
Bush's Castro Commission
Is Bush actually pushing USA Toward U.N. Control?
Bush's speech
Bush's version of Iran-Contra? Columbia!
Pope and Bush
Bush signs bill curbing class action lawsuits
Bush Budget Proposal
President Bush speaks
Open letter to President George W. Bush
Bush gets around to trying to find OBL
Bush, faith and policy
Papa Bush Defends Son
GW Bush
W. Virginia Elector Might Leave Bush
Why are so many people supporting Bush?
Bush's Record on Discretionary Spending
George Bush scares me
London Times:TX NG Col. saw Bush file altered
Bush advocates retreat, defeat
GW Bush admits "I got nothing..."
Media *Mistakes* in the Bush Document Fiasco
More Bush allegations: Insider Trading
Did Bush really go AWOL?
more Bush connections to the Swift Boat Vets


 
52Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 12:08
That's nuthin'. Do a search for how many threads contain the word Clinton. 8]
 
53Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Tue, Apr 10, 2007, 13:02
yea, i was just talking about the subject line. there's maybe 20 with the word Clinton in the title. it's not nearly as entertaining as is the folly named Bush, and the fool's that support him.
 
54Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 16:58
Republicans let out a collective groan.
“My level of concern and dismay is very, very high,” said Mickey Edwards, a Republican former congressman from Oklahoma who is now a lecturer in public policy at the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton. “It’s not that I have any particular problem with the people who are running for the Republican nomination. I just don’t know how they can run hard enough or fast enough to escape the gravitational pull of the Bush administration. We don’t have any candidates in the field now who are compelling,” Mr. Edwards said, adding: “It’s going to be a tough year for us.”

I'm surprised that John McCain has chosen the path he has embarked upon. He must wake up everyday and ask himself in the mirror, "how in the hell did this happen? I hate that clown GW and now I'm ruining my chances at becoming President by slavishly supporting this bungled mess of a war. Why me?"
 
55Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 17:43
Fred Thompson discloses he's been diagnosed with Lymphoma.

Did I not tell you Hillary is the devil's handmaiden?
 
56Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 19:11
Edwards: "I just don’t know how they can run hard enough or fast enough to escape the gravitational pull of the Bush administration."

The way to escape the downward gravitational pull of the Bush administration is simple: get out of Iraq. Make getting out of Iraq part of your platform.

Unfortunately, not only is McCain a hawk, but Giuliani has put himself on the record for the first time, in the last ten days or so, taking an ultra-hawkish position, suggesting that the Iraq war is part of the fight against Al-Qaeda.

Toral
 
57Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 19:27
Fred Thompson discloses he's been diagnosed with Lymphoma.

Is it possible that even God doesn't want a conservative to run?
 
58Baldwin
      ID: 3503618
      Wed, Apr 11, 2007, 19:57
God doesn't care who wins.

The meek will inherit the earth. After armegeddon rescues them.
 
59Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Fri, Apr 13, 2007, 11:44
Michele Cottle endorses Fred Thompson:
Presidential obsession du jour for anxious GOPers: Does Fred Thompson's announcement that he's in remission from lymphoma mean that America's favorite lawyer-turned-lobbyist-turned-movie-actor-turned-senator-turned-TV-actor is more likely or less likely to join the 2008 hordes? I'm betting on Option A, especially since early reaction to Thompson's revelation ranged from the blasé to the encouraging. And, while I obviously am hoping that Republicans are nutty enough to nominate someone in 2008 who'll prove utterly unelectable in the generals--like Kansas Senator Sam Brownback or, better still, Newt Gingrich--I wouldn't mind seeing Thompson jump in and shake things up a bit.

It's not that I find Thompson's politics any more appealing than say, John McCain's or Rudy Giuliani's. (As for Mitt Romney, God only knows what his politics are--or how many times they'll change between now and Iowa.) He consistently voted for guns, against gays, for tax cuts, and against abortion rights. But Thompson has one thing to recommend him that his Republican opponents don't: a long-standing reputation for lacking any passion, zeal, or vision for governing. Plus, he's said to be just the teensiest bit lazy. This was the rap on him over a decade ago, when I began cataloging his many charms for a Washington Monthly piece predicting that he'd make a helluva POTUS candidate if he could just find himself a good wife (something he has since done), it remains the rap on him today, and it is by far my most favoritest thing about good ol' Fred. Seriously. I get a little nervous when confronted by any presidential aspirant itching to transform society as we know it. (Just look what Team Bush has wrought trying to democratize Iraq.) So my idea of a top-notch standard bearer for a party whose views I find increasingly unpalatable is one too lazy and too apathetic to cause much trouble should he actually win.
 
60Perm Dude
      ID: 1330138
      Fri, Apr 13, 2007, 12:36
I dunno--it seems to me that Bush in 2000 was the owner of many of the attributes that people are throwing at Thompson right now.
 
61Seattle Zen
      ID: 46315247
      Thu, May 10, 2007, 20:49
 
62Perm Dude
      ID: 114162713
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 14:19
Cheney mocks Geneva Convention, at West Point commencement address

Poisoning the well.
 
63sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 17:52
would one have expected any different really? This is coming form one of the stronger men in this admin-of-evil, where morality is tossed aside with less concern than one would show for left over food scraps.
 
64Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 17:59
Is that link to the right story? Cheney neither mocks or criticizes the Geneva Conventions in it.
 
65Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 18:16
where morality is tossed aside with less concern than one would show for left over food scraps. - Sarge

Wow, project much?
 
66sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 19:01
B...only you would compare my Athiesm, with this admins policy of torture, circumvention of the Constitution, illegal wiretaps, warrantless searches, arrests w/o filing of charges, etc etc etc.

Always been this ignorant? Or is it a relatively recent development with Clintons departure from the WH and thus the removal of your favorite target?


T--As Army officers on duty in the war on terror, you will now face enemies who oppose and despise everything you know to be right, every notion of upright conduct and character, and every belief you consider worth fighting for and living for. Capture one of these killers, and he'll be quick to demand the protections of the Geneva Convention and the Constitution of the United States.

He indicates clearly, that those he terms as terrorists, will try and hide behind the GC and our own Constitution. 2 frameworks, this admin has worked tirelessly to neuter.


 
67Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 19:16
Cheney says that an enemy captured in the War Aainst Terror will demand the protections of the GCs and the Constitution. Thereafter, after your excerpt, he points out that these enemies do not observe the same standards themselves.

That's all correct, isn't it? Where's the "mocking" (per permdude's link title) or criticizing (from the article title)?

Toral
 
68Doug
      ID: 422281412
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 20:15
I agree Toral, I completely had the same reaction when I read the article. Personally, I'm no fan of Cheney or this administration by any stretch. I read the headline and thought "Here we go again...", then I read the article, and by the end I was like "Umm... so where's the mocking?"

My impression is that the reporter is predisposed to believe that Cheney and the Bush Admin. don't have due respect for the GC (or the Constitution)... a predisposition which is reasonable and understandable IMHO... as evidenced by past actions/policies/comments on a repeated basis.

But when a bias is so strong that it clouds your journalism to the point you begin reporting falsehoods (although, I don't really know if it's the writer, the editor, or both to blame for that headline), it's a sign that you are either unethical (if it is done intentionally) or inept (if it is done unintentionally). Neither bodes well.

One could just as well claim Cheney was mocking the Constitution, as he refers to it in an equivalent manner as he does the GC... and that also would be an inaccurate representation of what he said. It isn't even remotely implied, IMHO.

I notice the article title (and 1st paragraph content) actually say that Cheney "criticizes" rather than "mocks" the GC, although even the softer term "criticizes" seems to be unfounded in this case.

The only thing he criticizes is the hypocrisy of terrorists disregarding the GC in their actions, then turning around and using it for their protection (upon capture). Whether or not the Bush Admin could be accused of similar hypocrisy is moot as far as the false characterization made in this article is concerned.
 
69Perm Dude
      ID: 114162713
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 20:44
Toral,

Mocking people ("sensibilities") for calling for Geneva Convention protections is, indeed, mocking.

Take a step back: Exactly who is asking for Geneva Convention protections? Think about this one carefully. Is Osama bin Laden? Nope. How about any other known Al Qaeda operatives? No siree.

The only ones asking for their rights are the lawyers of those currently locked away, often without charges, for years.

Cheney's speech is simply another in a series of slams against the enemy of the state: Defense attorneys.

And Chency misses the point (as usual). A moral country acts morally. It doesn't try to parse our the law in order to locate loopholes. We as a nation cannot lead if we act as if morality is something we lecture others on.
 
70Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 20:58
I infer from your explanation that you are dropping the claim that Cheney mocked the Geneva Conventions. I just wanted to confirm that there was no truth in that rather sensational charge. Thank you.

Toral

 
71sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 21:06
Given the way this admin has worked to deny the GC, any claims of its use by those who this admin opposes, is mocking IMHO.
 
72Perm Dude
      ID: 114162713
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 21:27
Oh no, thank you. Another chance for you to demonstrate your blinders is a good thing, Toral. By all means, keep it up--inferring is the best means to doing so.

BTW, Cheney's speech is the Administration's latest change on its stance on the Geneva Convention. It used to be that they didn't believe the War on Terror enemy combatants were enemy combatants per the Convention. Now they believe that the US doesn't have to apply Geneva Convention standards because they say these "killers" refuse to apply those standards themselves.

Our obligations are apparently waived in this case.
 
73Perm Dude
      ID: 114162713
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 21:30
Let me just add, to make it a little more relevant to the title of this thread: The more that the Administration plays the hate card, the more this will hurt Republicans in 2008. So far, Rudy McRomney have indicated they will continue the Administration's policies in not only continuing the Iraqi War but in fighting this through the use of torture, intimidation, and dehumanizing this amorphous enemy.

If the consequences weren't so dire, I'd just sit back and let them cut their own political throats.
 
74Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 22:23
BTW, Cheney's speech is the Administration's latest change on its stance on the Geneva Convention. It used to be that they didn't believe the War on Terror enemy combatants were enemy combatants per the Convention. Now they believe that the US doesn't have to apply Geneva Convention standards because they say these "killers" refuse to apply those standards themselves.

There you go again.

Cheney's speech doesn't say, or imply this (the bolded part). And it is wild to treat statements that say nothing whatever about the U.S.'s position on application of the Geneva Convention as a change of the Administration's stance on the Geneva Conventrion.

My best guess is that you're trying to read his mind and are commenting on what you think he "really means". At the cost of completely ignoring what he actually said.

Toral

 
75Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 22:46
Re:Sarge#66

Who said I was talking about your atheism?
 
76sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sun, May 27, 2007, 23:59
well, it was either that, or my opposition to your method of treating a "patient", the person within which had long since departed, or my position re a womans choice as compared to your own. Figured I had a 1:3 shot of guessing which of my traits you were taking a shot at.
 
77Perm Dude
      ID: 42426309
      Wed, May 30, 2007, 22:55
Thompson is in.

Word is he'll start with one hand tied behind his back, by taking on US Attorney (for now) Tim Griffin in a "top post."
 
78walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 14:42
Brownback clarifies evoluation/creation stance in NYT

While no stone should be left unturned in seeking to discover the nature of man’s origins, we can say with conviction that we know with certainty at least part of the outcome. Man was not an accident and reflects an image and likeness unique in the created order. Those aspects of evolutionary theory compatible with this truth are a welcome addition to human knowledge. Aspects of these theories that undermine this truth, however, should be firmly rejected as an atheistic theology posing as science. Without hesitation, I am happy to raise my hand to that.

"She blinded me with science!"

- walk
 
79Perm Dude
      ID: 334273110
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 15:38
What the hell kind of statement is that? "We know the truth, and anything which reflects that is just fine, and everything else isn't science" ??
 
80biliruben
      ID: 52014814
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 16:02
Holy phuk. Morons hold your banner high. Announce you have brain-damage loudly and with ultimate conviction!
 
81walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Thu, May 31, 2007, 16:41
Agreed, Brownbacks's editorial is really funny to me cos he's basically saying that, with a proper platform such as this editorial, he can better articulate the nuances and subtleties associated with the creationist view, and yet even with all of the words, he still comes out basically saying: creation = truth and evolutionary thinking which supports it is valid, but if not, is ... atheism (!). Oh my. I feel like thinking like this, and even more so, publicized thinking like this, is just flat out grounds for termination. As bili says, it's freakin STUPID. And stupid people should not be allowed to make laws (let alone war).

oy yoi yoi,
- walk
 
82Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 08:37
Peggy Noonan: Bush Destroying Conservative Coalition
 
83Perm Dude
      ID: 2054118
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 09:43
Seems pretty accurate to me. Do you agree, Toral?

I did, however, LOL at this line: I suspect the White House and its allies have turned to name calling because they're defensive...

Maybe Noonan is new to the game here, but "The White House and its allies" (including Congressional Republicans and the RNC) have been doing this for years, following the Rove gameplan.
 
84biliruben
      ID: 52014814
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 14:58

. . . free at last! . . .


Rats. Ship. Flee!

"Bartlett said he was leaving for no other reason than to get a job in the private sector and concentrate more on his family. He has retained Washington lawyer Robert Barnett to help him in his search."

Besides the obvious cliche of spending more time with your family, I found the second sentence interesting. Who hires a lawyer to find them a job?
 
85sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 15:20
someone with something to hide? maybe?
 
86Perm Dude
      ID: 2054118
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 15:59
A Noonan counterpoint, from 2004.

"So much to savor..."
 
87Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 18:13
I am thinking hard and preparing a post in response to pd83.

While you Democrats and liberals are waiting; I am a big fan of Peggy Noonan. But for those who aren't...: catty gossip from "high school friends" -- catty or what?
Toral
 
88Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 06:41
Who hires a lawyer to find them a job?

They can help out in the negotiating of or reviewal of an employment agreement. From my experience it's not uncommon at all for an executive to have a lawyer review a job proposal before signing it.
 
89Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 07:42
Catty projection. Tells us more about the sad and jealous name dropper of an ex-aquaintance than it reveals about Noonan.
 
90biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 09:51
Well, yeah. I contract lawyer reviewing a contract is one thing. But finding him a job?
 
91Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Jun 02, 2007, 11:38
Isn't that part of finding a high level job? Negotiating and agreeing upon terms?
 
92Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jun 03, 2007, 10:50
No. 'Finding', as it pertains to 'searching' is not part of negotiating and agreeing.
 
93Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, Jun 03, 2007, 13:32
Dear Lord.

Mince words much?

Isn't the negotiating and agreeing process part of finding a job?

You people are just so horny for another scandal with this Administration that you'll see whatever you want to see.
 
94Perm Dude
      ID: 4521312
      Sun, Jun 03, 2007, 13:48
No, it isn't part of finding a job. It is part of negotiating contract terms for a new job. "Finding" means "locating a potential or actual job opening." Also known as "searching." This guy apparently needs a lawyer to search for a job.

 
95Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Jun 03, 2007, 13:49
Show me that Robert Barnett is only taking part in the "negotiating and agreeing process" and I'll cede the stupid point. Otherwise, you're clinging to a meritless position in what is a totally pointless argument.
 
96Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Mon, Jun 04, 2007, 16:53
here's a lovely direction...wonder if the national party feels the same...

“At the end of the day, I believe fully the president is doing the right thing, and I think all we need is some attacks on American soil like we had on [Sept. 11, 2001 ], and the naysayers will come around very quickly to appreciate not only the commitment for President Bush, but the sacrifice that has been made by men and women to protect this country,” (Republican Party of Arkansas chairman Dennis) Milligan said.

hooray for more attacks on american soil!!! hip hip hooray!
 
97Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Jun 04, 2007, 21:11
You're saying you think he wants there to be an attack?
 
98Tree
      ID: 36535418
      Mon, Jun 04, 2007, 21:32
well, he wants the Republican Party to do well, and in his belief, the Republican Party will do well if there is another attack...

he may not have realized what he said, but that is certainly what he said..
 
99Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Jun 04, 2007, 21:45
I think he knows what he said but didn't think about how easily it could be spun. And while I don't agree with him, I think that you probably misunderstand him because the quote is taken out of context.

According to the article he said that in support of Bush's Iraq policy. He's saying the country has become complacieny or weak-willed again and that the only way Bush detractors will come to realize this is if (when) they are forced to because of another tragic attack.
 
100Perm Dude
      ID: 415849
      Mon, Jun 04, 2007, 21:52
In other words, we'd never come around if the Bush policy actually works, keeping us safe, that is. But if the Bush policy fails, then we'd see it for the successful program we should get behind?

That's a real kick in the pants.
 
101bibA
      Leader
      ID: 261028117
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 10:47
Well of course it is the same ol' story isn't it? The country is safer since 9-11. This can be attributed to the administration's policies. In the event that things take a violent turn for the worse, the more we need the administration's policies.

If the Dems win in 08, same thing - if things remain relatively peaceful at home, it will be due to Bush having made the country a safe place. Were another attack to take place, it would be due to the soft on terrorism liberals.
 
102Baldwin
      ID: 14358177
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 12:09
I'm curious if you think salafists like Al Qeada are reasonable people and if we just left them alone then they'd leave us alone? It's all that cowboy Bush's fault?

The questions of who masterminded worldwide terror, why they wanted it, how they fought it and for what true goals...these may not be exactly what they appear on the surface...

...but that begs the question of what you think should be done about it and what would happen if everyone took the ostrich position.
 
103Tree
      ID: 29082512
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 12:31
I'm curious if you think salafists like Al Qeada are reasonable people and if we just left them alone then they'd leave us alone? It's all that cowboy Bush's fault?

well, you sure don't stick your hand in the hornet's nest, thinking the hornets will love you, with out having an idea of how you're going to pull it out, and that is all cowboy Bush's fault.
 
104Perm Dude
      ID: 4954358
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 13:00
Nice try, Baldwin. Disagreeing with Bush's way isn't taking the "ostrich position."

In fact, Bush has been moving (slowly but surely) toward Democratic positions for some time. Taking up suggestions of the IRG, for instance (which he put down when they were originaly released). He's also going to have to realize the surge isn't working (and, as you know, the position that it wouldn't work was pretty much a uniquely Democratic one).

He's also come around on Al Gore's suggestion in 2000 to increase the size of the armed forces (a suggestion made with greatest detail these days by Barack Obama).
 
105Perm Dude
      ID: 4954358
      Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 19:06
Apparently "loyalty" for Bill Kristol means "pardon your friends who are criminals."
 
106Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Wed, Jun 06, 2007, 04:52
Thank you for your post, bringing up the Bill Kristol editorial.

I thought Kristol was brilliant. Before reading Kristol's editorial, I wrote this in another thread, where your comrade-in-crime Seattle Zen made a post gloating over Mr Libby's sentence:
"This could become an issue in the GOP presidential primaries. Mr Libby has done nothing whatsoever morally wrong, and is being punished for being on the wrong side of a rogue independent prosecutor trying to criminalize disagreement over national security issues.

On the GOP side, the wusses will settle for President Bush pardoning Mr Libby after the 2008 presidential elections. The base, and all decent people, will demand that Mr Libby be pardoned now (as Fred Thompson has called for).

The GOP cannot let the liberals start imprisoning people because of policy differences. If President Bush does not immediately pardon Mr Libby, this will be another reason (as if there weren't enough already) to break with him, and let him meet his future fate, by himself, against the massed liberals and left, totally alone, for all time.

Toral"

-----------------------------------------------

I am not completely sure whether Mr Libby is good or evil.

However, I have known you and Seattle Zen for a good number of years now. And having that knowledge,permdude, I can now confidently make the official call: you are evil.

Toral
 
107Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Wed, Jun 06, 2007, 04:58
I would just post the whole of Bill Kristol's short comment:

I FEEL TERRIBLE for Scooter Libby's family. Millions of Americans feel terrible for Scooter Libby's family. But we can't do anything about the injustice that has been done. Nor can we do anything to avert a further injustice looming on the horizon--Judge Reggie Walton seems inclined not to let Libby remain free pending appeal.

Unlike the rest of us, however, George W. Bush is president. Article II, Section Two of the Constitution gives him the pardon power. George W. Bush can do something to begin to make up for the injustice a prosecutor appointed by his own administration brought down on Scooter Libby. And he can do something to avert the further injustice of a prison term.

Will Bush pardon Libby? Apparently not--even if it means a man who worked closely with him and sought tirelessly to do what was right for the country goes to prison. Bush spokeswoman Dana Perino, noting that the appeals process was underway, said, "Given that and in keeping with what we have said in the past, the president has not intervened so far in any other criminal matter and he is going to decline to do so now."

So much for loyalty, or decency, or courage. For President Bush, loyalty is apparently a one-way street; decency is something he's for as long as he doesn't have to take any
risks in its behalf; and courage--well, that's nowhere to be seen. Many of us used to respect President Bush. Can one respect him still?

William Kristol is editor of The Weekly Standard.


Toral
 
108sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Wed, Jun 06, 2007, 08:57
However, I have known you and Seattle Zen for a good number of years now. And having that knowledge,permdude, I can now confidently make the official call: you are evil.

<---Has a lot of respect for PD. Hopes one day, that I can join him and be called "evil" by our resident Canuckian too.
 
109Perm Dude
      ID: 4954358
      Wed, Jun 06, 2007, 09:40
Toral: You bring up Zen's gloating of Libby's sentence to call me evil?

How about an example of what I've actually written to make that judgement? Or are you basing it all upon my disagreement with Bill Kristol's call to allow Libby to get away with obstructing justice?
 
110biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Wed, Jun 06, 2007, 09:58
Toral's turned into the church lady! We are all in league with Satan.
 
111Perm Dude
      ID: 4954358
      Wed, Jun 06, 2007, 10:12
Heh heh.

Well, Baldwin I can understand. But calling the rest of us evil is just plain judgmental.

:)
 
112Perm Dude
      ID: 4954358
      Wed, Jun 06, 2007, 12:12
Continuing a trend started a year or two ago, some Republicans are pushing back.
 
113Perm Dude
      ID: 27547138
      Wed, Jun 13, 2007, 12:51
At the risk (again) of pissing off Toral by linking to an Andrew Sullivan piece, this is a pretty good rant about the lack of distinctions the fear mongerers are making.

The truth *will* set you free.
 
114Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Jun 23, 2007, 18:51
Tax Cuts for Kids
By Fred Thompson
Friday, June 22, 2007



One of the reasons I keep ringing the bell about the Bush tax cuts is that they’ve been so good for our country in so many ways. Letting them expire would amount to a tax hike of historic proportions -- a tax hike that would take a higher share of our total economy than any year but one since the end of World War II.

Prosperity is a wonderful thing in many ways. When societies have strong economies, people voluntarily take care of all kinds of problems, and the quality of life improves for everybody. This may be particularly true for children. Look around the world and you see healthy, growing economies have cleaner environments and better educational systems. The wealthier a society is, the better its children are in terms of nutrition, health care and even crime.

Since 1993, according to Justice Department statistics, the juvenile homicide rate was cut in half. For kids between the ages of 14 and 17, the reduction was even greater. The National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System shows child abuse declined by 43 percent and childhood sexual abuse by almost half. Sexual assaults against adolescents dropped by more than two thirds and aggravated assaults by almost 75 percent.

This is dramatically good news, especially for children and their parents. And the reasons behind these improvements in the lives of American children are linked to economic growth. With increased revenues on a state and local level, more police were hired. Financially healthy families took their children to doctors more often, who were more likely to prescribe medications and other treatments. The study even pointed out that increased financial health reduces family tensions and produces happier children -- less prone to problem behaviors.

The irony is that we got these improvements in our children’s lives from a strong economy driven by tax cuts. Now we're being told that tax cuts have to end, so that the government can tax us and spend the money on programs to accomplish what Americans already did for themselves. And they did it far better than any bureaucracy ever could.
 
115Perm Dude
      ID: 48539236
      Sat, Jun 23, 2007, 19:47
So, giving money to the rich will reduce crime? Who'd have thought of that? [Certainly no economists].

It is a little ironic, a Republican talking about the obviousness of preventative medicine. Republicans have been railing against the health care plans of Democrats for some time now, which all point to the economic benefits of preventative medicine.

Finally, I see Thompson had to go back to Clinton's first term to find something good about crime numbers, and then try to make them sound like they are a result of Bush's tax cuts. But under Bush's terms, crime, particularly violent crime, has increased. The one benefit we know will reduce crime is more money for policing efforts up and down the line.
 
116Building 7
      ID: 571192610
      Sun, Jun 24, 2007, 09:43
In 1993 the Toronto Blue Jays won the World Series and after that children's statistics improved. Conclusion: don't ever let Toronto win the World Series again or else it will be bad for children.
I'm all for tax cuts, but this relationship seems dubious.

 
117Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 18:00
Surgeon General repeatedly overruled by Bush Political appointees

I thought there was a specific thread about the Bush Administration silencing federal scientists, but I couldn't find it. This is just pathetic.
Former Surgeon General Richard H. Carmona told a Congressional panel Tuesday that top Bush administration officials repeatedly tried to weaken or suppress important public health reports because of political considerations. The administration, Dr. Carmona said, would not allow him to speak or issue reports about stem cells, emergency contraception, sex education, or prison, mental and global health issues. Top officials delayed for years and tried to “water down” a landmark report on secondhand smoke, he said. Released last year, the report concluded that even brief exposure to cigarette smoke could cause immediate harm.

Dr. Carmona said he was ordered to mention President Bush three times on every page of his speeches. He also said he was asked to make speeches to support Republican political candidates and to attend political briefings.

And administration officials even discouraged him from attending the Special Olympics because, he said, of that charitable organization’s longtime ties to a “prominent family” that he refused to name.
 
118Perm Dude
      ID: 116161117
      Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 19:22
Apparently he didn't get the memo about the change in his oath...
 
119Perm Dude
      ID: 296341119
      Thu, Jul 12, 2007, 00:18
It's a race to the bottom for Republican Presidental candidate hires. State Rep. Bob Allen, John McCain's Florida co-Chair, arrested on sex charge
 
120Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 12:45
Thanks Guru for restoring this thread from the memory hole.

Eric Martin on why General David Petraeus doesn't qualify to fill the power void at the top of the GOP.
 
121Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, Apr 06, 2009, 10:59
Scott Horton: If the president releases the Bush torture memos, Republicans are promising to “go nuclear” and filibuster his legal appointments.
Senate Republicans are now privately threatening to derail the confirmation of key Obama administration nominees for top legal positions by linking the votes to suppressing critical torture memos from the Bush era. A reliable Justice Department source advises me that Senate Republicans are planning to “go nuclear” over the nominations of Dawn Johnsen as chief of the Office of Legal Counsel in the Department of Justice and Yale Law School Dean Harold Koh as State Department legal counsel if the torture documents are made public. The source says these threats are the principal reason for the Obama administration’s abrupt pullback last week from a commitment to release some of the documents. A Republican Senate source confirms the strategy. It now appears that Republicans are seeking an Obama commitment to safeguard the Bush administration’s darkest secrets in exchange for letting these nominations go forward.


The release of the memos that the Senate Republicans want to suppress was cleared by Attorney General Eric Holder and White House counsel Greg Craig, and then was stopped when “all hell broke loose” inside the Obama administration, according to an article by Newsweek reporter Michael Isikoff. Newsweek attributes internal opposition to disclosure of the Bush-era torture memos to White House counterterrorism adviser and former CIA official John O. Brennan, who has raised arguments that exposure of the memoranda would run afoul of policies protecting the secrecy of agency techniques and has also argued that the memos would embarrass nations like Morocco, Jordan, Pakistan, Tunisia and Egypt, which have cooperated closely with the CIA in its extraordinary renditions program. Few informed independent observers, however, find much to credit in the Brennan objections because the techniques are now well-known, as is the role of the cooperating foreign intelligence services—any references to which would in any event likely be redacted before the memoranda are released. Moreover, the argument that the confidence of those engaged in torture—serious criminal conduct under international and domestic law—should be kept because they would be “embarrassed” if it were to come out borders on comic.


No decision was taken at that Republican caucus meeting whether to filibuster or not, though Cornyn was generally believed to support filibustering Johnsen and potentially other nominees. Johnsen has met recently with moderate Republican Senators Susan Collins of Maine and Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, both of whom are being lobbied heavily by colleagues and religious right groups to oppose her nomination.

Both Koh and Johnsen are targets of sustained attacks coming from right-wing lobbying groups. The Daily Beast previously reviewed the attacks on Johnsen, while Slate’s Dahlia Lithwick has catalogued the recent attacks on Koh. Former Bush administration Solicitor General Ted Olson recently endorsed the Koh nomination, calling the Yale dean “a man of great integrity.” But connecting the Obama nominations to the Bush torture memos escalates the conflict toward a thermonuclear level.
Understand, Johnsen and Koh are not judicial nominees, such as those Bush nominees whom Senate Dems threatened to filibuster in 2005. These are nominees for legal counsil positions within the Obama administration.

Hilzoy:
Besides the ugliness of the attacks, what the Republicans are doing is really unprecedented. First, the President has traditionally been given deference in the choice of his advisors. If some President wants to have someone in his cabinet, the presumption is that he ought to be able to do so, absent illegality or some sort of manifest incompetence. For the Republican Senators to hold these appointees up not for those reasons, but because they disagree with their policies, is just wrong; if this happened every time a new administration came into office, the opposition party would filibuster half the nominations and no one would never govern at all.


Second, what the Republicans are trying to do is to dictate to the President a matter that is purely his prerogative: deciding whether or not to unclassify documents. This is insane: it's as though Obama threatened to withhold funding for the Senate unless Mitch McConnell fired some staffer he didn't like. [UPDATE: Adam Serwer points out that it isn't even optional: a judge has ordered that the memos be turned over.]
I thought about requesting that Guru restore the "Filibustering Judicial Nominees" thread. I took a look at it and despite the obvious parallels, this was a more apropriate place. I did however, come across a terrific gem of an exchange between Perm Dude and Baldwin:
10 Perm Dude
ID: 17321143
Thu, Apr 14, 2005, 12:49 When Republicans are in the minority youre going to wish you had a voice in the process, B.

11 Boldwin
ID: 8347115
Thu, Apr 14, 2005, 13:22 The Republicans have historically shown commity and allowed the majority, their way. I dont gain anything by allowing the ratchet to stay in place.
 
122Seattle Zen
      ID: 34320611
      Mon, Apr 06, 2009, 12:20
Those memos are coming out. Believe me, they will be W's "Watergate". I fully expect criminal investigations into John Yoo and David Addington.

Republicans have just begun their long walk in the desert.
 
123Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 11:10
The defacto leader of the GOP:
LIMBAUGH: We're going to go to Chicago. This is Charles. Charles thank you for waiting and for calling. Great to have you here. Hello.

CALLER: Thanks Rush. Rush listen, I voted Republican and I really didn't want to see Obama get in office. But you know Rush, you're one reason to blame for this election, for the Republicans losing. First of all, you kept harping about voting for Hillary. The second big issue was the torture issue. I'm a veteran. We're not supposed to be torturing these people. This is not Nazi Germany, Red China, North Korea. There's other ways of interrogating people, and you just kept harping about, it's okay, or it's not really torture. And it was just more than waterboarding. Some of these prisoners will killed under torture.

And it was crazy for you to go on and on like Levin and Hannity and Hewitt. It's like you're all brainwashed. And my last comment is, no matter what Obama does, you will still criticize him because I believe you are brainwashed. You're just -- and I hate to say it -- but I think you're a brainwashed Nazi. Anyone who can believe in torture has got to be -- there has got to be something wrong with them.

LIMBAUGH: You know --

CALLER: And I know Bush wanted to keep us safe and all of that but we're not supposed to be torturing these people.

LIMBAUGH: Charles, if anybody is admitting that they are brainwashed it would be you.

CALLER: No, no, Rush. I don't think so. You, Hannity, and Levin are all brainwashed --

LIMBAUGH: Charles, you said at the beginning of your phone call that you didn't want Obama in there. But you voted for him because of me.

CALLER: I didn't vote for him. I voted for McCain. I voted Republican.

LIMBAUGH: Oh, so you're saying I turned people off --

CALLER: You turned people off with all this vote for Hillary and all this BS.

LIMBAUGH: That was Operation Chaos. That was to keep the chaos in the Democrat primaries --

CALLER: It didn't work and what we have with you Hannity Levin and Hewitt is sour grapes. That's all we have. And believe me, I'm not -- I'm more to the right than I am to the left.

LIMBAUGH: Oh, of course you are.

CALLER: I am.

LIMBAUGH: Of course you are. You wouldn't be calling here with all of these sour grapes if you weren't.

CALLER: Well I'm tired of listening to go on and on with this --

LIMBAUGH: I don't know of anybody who died from torture.

CALLER: We're not supposed to torture people. Do you remember World War II, the Nazis? The Nuremburg trials?

LIMBAUGH: Charles, Barack Obama --

CALLER: What's the matter with you? You never even served in the military. I served in the Marine Corps and the Army.

LIMBAUGH: Charles, Barack Obama is president of the United States today because of stupid, ignorant people who think like you do. You pose - you and your ignorance are the most expensive commodity this country has. You think you know everything. You don't know diddly squat. You call me a Nazi? You call me someone who supports torture and you want credibility on this program? You're just plan embarrassing and ludicrous. But it doesn't surprise me that you're the kind of Republican that our last candidate attracted. Because you're no Republican at all based on what the hell you just said right here.
Linkins: So, military service and opposition to things like torture and juvenile primary season stunts are values that lie outside Limbaugh's definition of "Republican."
 
124Tree
      ID: 27351810
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 11:59
Limbaugh: But it doesn't surprise me that you're the kind of Republican that our last candidate attracted.

despite the fact the caller said he voted for McCain and against Obama...then again, Limbaugh isn't paid to listen...

caller: What's the matter with you? You never even served in the military. I served in the Marine Corps and the Army.

that should be someone's signature...that is so freakin' outstanding and made me laugh.."what's the matter with you!?!?!"

 
125Boxman
      ID: 3821468
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 12:22
The defacto leader of the GOP:

Says who?
 
126sarge33rd
      ID: 30356715
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 12:26
Moreover, the argument that the confidence of those engaged in torture—serious criminal conduct under international and domestic law—should be kept because they would be “embarrassed” if it were to come out borders on comic.

Doesn't that more accurately, border on "conspircy to commit", and thereby justify criminal charges?
 
127Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 14:41
Says who?

Says me. In post 123.

The GOP has no real leader. George W Bush's polling numbers have been in the gutter for so long that GOP political candidates in 2008 quite literally ran from him at nearly every opportunity. Practically every Republican campaign around the country went out of their way to disassociate themselves from the outgoing president.

The party's most recent presidential nominee is rebuked and mocked by the party's vocal base, and he is continually pressured to affirm his credentials.

The RNC Chairman literally attempted to claim the position of "defacto leader" of the party, but did so in the same breath in which he happened to insult Rush Limbaugh. Limbaugh's response was to criticize Steele and question his credentials and state that Steele isn't fit to lead the party. Steele's reaction? A public apology to Rush.

Minority leaders Mitch McConnell and John Boehner have not in any way sought to distinguish themselves, despite the standing upon appropriate platforms from which to do so. My assessment of the GOP's Congressional leadership is summed up nicely by CenterRight at Conservative Home:
In this piece, I intend to explore some of the figures and influences who may help turn the fortunes of the Republican Party around after two of the most devastating election cycles in the party's history.

For leadership or renewal, we need not look too closely at the party's congressional leadership. The management styles of the two parliamentary leaders of the Republican Party, John Boehner in the House of Representatives and Mitch McConnell in the Senate, seem to be more based on partisanship for the sake of partisanship as opposed to formulating policy for the sake of rebuilding their shattered delegations in the House and Senate. As a good American friend said to me just a few days ago, the Republican 'leadership' in the House and Senate are "paralyzed", simply waiting for the Obama administration’s policies to somehow become unpopular, "and that won't translate to victory".
McConnell has made a point to explicitly dismiss the notion of hoping for the president to fail but refuses to rebuke the man who has famously repeated that explicit sentiment on multiple occasions.

When asked by Bob Schiffer on Face The Nation whether Limbaugh speaks for the party, John Boehner could not give a yes or no answer.

Eric Cantor did momentarily find the scrotal contents to challenge the Ditto-King but just a week later was on national TV pathetically groveling his unyielding support for the Rush-meister.

So who's left? Newt has occasionally injected his opinions into the arena this year but not often enough to consider him a leader and his last bit of blind obstructionism, demanding that the president should have started a war with North Korea, did not play well, even with much of the reactionary right.

As wildly popular as Sarah Palin still is on the right, she's a politics neophyte and probably can't be counted on to set policy from outside the failed GOP playbook. Further, even as the right stood in denial, her conservative walk rarely matches her conservative talk. And even if her adoring fans are willing to forgive those warts, there's still the challenge of driving that policy from Alaska, while trying to run that state.

And that leaves Rush. No one in the party in any position of authority dares publicly challenge him or his self-assumed license to run down any Republican standing in his way. In lieu of there being no real leader present, the honor simply has to go to the guy who can set whatever political tone he chooses and bitchslap without repercussions any elected party official who dares question him.
 
128Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 18:58
Do you believe there is a conservative anywhere who has a problem with Rush setting the tone?
 
129Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 19:01
I just find it hysterical that the left is grasping in desperation to find a leader for the Republican Party. The only reason they are doing so is so that their criticism have a focal point to attack as opposed to a scattershot approach where really nothing sticks or no one remembers.

But by all means attack a radio show host even though Obama won't be running against him in four years.
 
130Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 19:05
Maybe the left can get the NYT to prop McCain back up at the head of the ticket.
 
131Perm Dude
      ID: 336813
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 19:19
Don't blame the NYT for your own side's collapse. Either Limbaugh is the "leader" or the GOP is leaderless. The "Left" didn't force Republicans to pick McCain as their choice in the GOP primary.

Of course, when your party is down to 24% of the country and has spent some years driving moderates out of the party, the hard, burnished kernels that remain probably won't be resembling much of a party.
 
132Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 19:23
You guys are the same guys that told us McCain was the republican party's strongest candidate. You are completely fooling yourself if you think any conservative believes a word of what you are selling.
 
133Perm Dude
      ID: 336813
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 19:25
Of all the candidates running, McCain was, indeed, the best.

You must be under the misimpression that the Republicans had a chance of winning back the White House last November.
 
134Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 19:29
How would you know what would have appealed to Republicans and Reagan Democrats?
 
135DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 19:54
You guys are the same guys that told us McCain was the republican party's strongest candidate.

This may come as a shock, but I doubt that any of the people you addressed that to voted in the Republican primary. I'm pretty sure that the Republicans nominated him... right?
 
137DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 19:56
Do you believe there is a conservative anywhere who has a problem with Rush setting the tone?

I'm genuinely curious to know your answer to that question.
 
138Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 20:03
Absolutely not.
 
139Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 20:11
Go on, Grade Obama. Take the MSNBC Poll.
 
140DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 21:22
So you think that everyone agrees with Rush on everything? Or that they just stay silent about the things that they disagree with? I'm genuinely trying to figure this out.

FWIW, I gave him a B so far. Could do with a lot more reining in of Reid and Pelosi.
 
141Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 21:36
Rush agrees with his listeners.
 
142Perm Dude
      ID: 336813
      Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 21:42
Except the ones he doesn't agree with--for which he swears at them. The real question is whether Republicans, as a whole, agree with him or not. If so, then he is their leader.

It is all an echo chamber, however. "Rush agrees with his listeners" isn't exactly value added.

Meanwhile, Baldwin takes offense at the idea that the party getting its ass handed to them in elections at every level for several years now should be taking advice from the winning side.
 
143Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 02:13
You know, you would think that a party that has had their a@@ handed to them routinely ever since the humiliating failure of the 'Great Society' would have learned a teeny tiny bit of humility while wandering the desert.

You would think that having to put on a Reagan costume to get elected would have been a lesson in humility for marxists, but no.

They have no shame.
 
144Perm Dude
      ID: 336813
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 03:33
You're down to 24% Baldwin. I don't think you have any place to crow.

Truly, you've got nothing.
 
145Baldwin
      ID: 132854
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 04:45
Kim Il Sung is at virtually 100% and truly he and every other marxist [look in the mirror] on the planet has zero to crow about.
 
147Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 08:28
137 DWetzel
ID: 33337117
Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 19:56 Do you believe there is a conservative anywhere who has a problem with Rush setting the tone?
I'm genuinely curious to know your answer to that question.


138 Baldwin
ID: 132854
Wed, Apr 08, 2009, 20:03 Absolutely not.


Baldwin, meet Boxman.

Or has Baldwin decided that he can't rightly call Boxman a 'conservative'? Because Mr. Boxman does indeed seem to have a problem with the idea that Rush is setting the tone. He certainly gets all ornery whenever anyone has suggested it here.
 
148Boxman
      ID: 3821468
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 09:19
Because Mr. Boxman does indeed seem to have a problem with the idea that Rush is setting the tone. He certainly gets all ornery whenever anyone has suggested it here.

Only because you liberals are limp wristedly trying to tell us who our leader is.
 
149Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 09:39
Why don't you tell us then?
 
150Boxman
      ID: 3821468
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 09:42
Because no matter who I say you will criticize that person.
 
151Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 10:00
LOL. Who exactly is limp-wristed again?
 
152Boxman
      ID: 3821468
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 10:06
Which person could I name as the leader of the Republican Party that would receive no criticism from the Emmanuel/Bagala/Carville triumverate and then also from the people on this message board?
 
153Boxman
      ID: 3821468
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 10:09
It's strategy not limp wristedness. Have you ever heard of starfish organizations versus spider organizations?

The Starfish and the Spider
 
154Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 10:17
Which person could I name as the leader of the Republican Party that would receive no criticism from the Emmanuel/Bagala/Carville triumverate and then also from the people on this message board?

Why are you so terrified of criticism from the people on this message board?

(and I'm pretty sure the Emmanuel/Bagala/Carville triumverate aren't reading your posts, so rest assured your secret leader is safe from them)
 
155Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 10:18
Am I really having this disuccion?
 
156Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Thu, Apr 09, 2009, 10:34
Do you think that what is said on this board is relayed to the White House Chief of Staff and media outlets?

I think the point here is that the GOP has no real leadership. Staunch objection to anything Democrats do, good, bad or otherwise, does not constitute leadership. The GOP won't stop getting crushed in elections until they find someone who marginalizes the impact of hate rhetoric from guys like Limbaugh and Hannity.
 
157Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 12:15
I'm not a fan of MSNBC and don't take this as an endorsement of Rachel Maddow's show (I've never seen it) but I thought this was hilarious:.
 
158Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, Apr 10, 2009, 12:43
Sullivan: The Tea Tantrum Movement
 
159Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 09:03
Boy it's not easy being a Republican these days. Goldberg can be about as fringe-appeasingly hysterical and rabid as the right wing could ask, and yet even he cannot get away with posting even just one favorable sentence about President Obama without having his inbox lit up with hate mail and drawing the ire of Rush Limbaugh.

The direction of the GOP: Hate or get out.
 
160Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 09:39
The author of the anti-Obama and anti-liberal media book, "A Slobbering Love Affair" proves not nearly hysterical enough for the party of Limbaugh and Hannity.
.
 
161Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 11:25
his point, that Obama would take the blame if something went wrong, is right on.

just a matter of time before Goldberg gets declared a RINO...

 
162Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 12:57
Just as I was preparing a post in praise of Captain Ed Morrissey for his well reasoned and moderate reaction to the above Hannity/Goldberg clip this morning, I came upon a more recent entry, published about an hour ago. He now he assumes a new position; that while Obama might deserve some credit for the safe return of Captain Phillips, the capture of the Maersk Alabama (and presumably every capture by Somali pirates) is Obama's fault!
In this past crisis, for instance, Obama should have been working from a substantial base of knowledge, as both he an Joe Biden served on the Senate Foreign Affairs subcommittee on African affairs. HA reader Morgen, who posts occasionally at Verum Serum, discovered that when the subcommittee met to discuss the issue of Somalia and piracy over the last three years, both the President and VP were no-shows.

Maybe he could have attended even one of the meetings listed above before the crisis erupted in order to prevent it from happening in the first place.
Presumably Capt. Ed flashed a bit too much original thought for a Malkin eunich, and had to do something win back the boss' favor. Clearly he forgot just who the contents of his pants belong to.

At the very least he should have known what an inopportune time this would be for Ed to reclaim his... dignity.

After, all, did he expect Michelle to arrive empty-handed at the teabag party?
 
163Perm Dude
      ID: 533581411
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 13:02
Only a matter of time before they blamed Obama for piracy!

Of course, there was a man who was in charge of the Navy at that time--the whole armed forces, in fact. You'd think, with this new line of reasoning, that he'd be in for a heap o'blame about now. What was his name....?
 
164Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 13:37


"...it's tough being a conservative right now"
 
165Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 14:30
Sullivan:
"I don't see it as a dark chapter in our history at all," - Charles Krauthammer, yesterday.

"The pictures are shocking and the practices appalling," - Charles Krauthammer, on Abu Ghraib, May 14, 2004.

As we now know, Bush and Cheney authorized torture techniques much worse than what we saw at Abu Ghraib, and as we now know, the techniques revealed at Abu Ghraib were garbled copies of practices already endorsed and authorized by the Bush White House. So what can possibly account for Krauthammer's shock at Abu Ghraib and pride in the torture program? That one was poorly organized and leaked? Or that Krauthammer's friends are now to be held responsible rather than reservists thrown into the deep end of the Rumsfeld gulag?

Or put it another way: imagine if an American operative out of uniform were captured by the Iranians tomorrow. Imagine he were put into a coffin for hours with no light and barely enough air to breathe, imagine if he were then removed and smashed against a plywood wall by a towel tied around his neck thirty times, imagine if he were then kept awake for eleven days in a row, then kept in a cell frozen to hypothermia levels, and then waterboarded multiple times, after which he confessed to being a spy trying to sabotage Iran's nuclear program. Would you believe that intelligence? Would Krauthammer? Would you believe both that he wasn't tortured and that the information he gave was reliable? That is what an otherwise intelligent human being is asking us to do not just in one case but in hundreds, in many of which the prisoner actually died under interrogation.

Would he also insist that what was done to the prisoner, however awful, could not be called torture under American law and the Geneva Conventions? Now imagine that the International Red Cross eventually got access to the prisoner and judged his treatment unequivocally torture; and that the Iranians claimed that since they merely applied "an alternative set of procedures" in order to gain critical intelligence that might have prevented a nuclear accident or sabotage, and remain in compliance with international treaties.

Can you imagine Krauthammer agreeing with Iran? And siding against the Red Cross?
 
166Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 14:55
Conor Friedersdorf at The American Scene (a pretty good righty blog for anyone unfamiliar):
Plumber for Sale

I favor a major overhaul of America’s tax system. So why do I object to Joe the Plumber’s advocacy on that subject? Well, I find it objectionable to cast oneself as a champion for regular Americans, only to exploit the misplaced trust of the most credulous among them.

 
167Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 16:48
HuffPo:
Steve Schmidt, McCain Campaign Manager: Religion Could Kill The GOP

Speaking publicly for one of the first times since the end of the presidential campaign, John McCain's campaign manager Steve Schmidt painted a dire portrait of the state of the Republican Party, arguing that the GOP has largely been co-opted by its religious elements.

"If you put public policy issues to a religious test, you risk becoming a religious party," Schmidt declared. "And in a free country, a political party cannot be viable in the long term if it is seen as a sectarian party."

The remarks came in a passionate, roughly 20-minute speech before the Log Cabin Republican's national convention, in which Schmidt laid out the case for a far more open party -- one which did not consider gay marriage to be a "litmus test" issue. And while he made it a purpose not to offend social conservatives -- they "remain an indispensable part of the Republican coalition," he said -- Schmidt did not hide his concerns that religion had become the predominant thread of the GOP.

"If you reject [gay marriage] on religious grounds, I respect that," he said. "I respect anyone's religious views. However, religious views should not inform the public policy positions of a political party because... when it is a religious party, many people who would otherwise be members of that party are excluded from it because of a religious belief system that may be different. And the Republican Party ought not to be that. It ought to be a coalition of people under a big tent."


Looking beyond the issue of marriage, Schmidt's diagnosis of the GOP's ills was fairly ominous. "Our coalition," he declared, "is shrinking and losing ground to segments of the population that is growing, whether it is with suburban voters, working class, college educated voters, Hispanics, or left handed Albania psychics, the percentage voting republican has declined precipitously."

Schmidt warned, particularly, that losses among Hispanic voters threatened to "cost the Republicans the entire southwest," a development that would make winning 270 electoral votes a near impossibility. "Had Sen. McCain not been the nominee in 2008," he said, "I am convinced we would have lost the state of Arizona."


And while the chance for an Obama-backlash was apparent -- "should the recession grow deeper or longer" -- and the likelihood of a "national disaster or any number of other contingencies" remained, Republicans, Schmidt added, should not "take comfort from knowing our party's success could come at the expense of the country or rely on blunders of the administration."


"If a party is seen as anti-gay than that is injurious to its candidates in states like California, Oregon or Washington or New Jersey or New York, increasingly even in states like Virginia and the mid-south," he said. "And to be a national party we need to be competitive in the northeast, for instance. I will argue that our party was a richer party when we had people, by no means conservatives but republicans, like Christie Whitman and George Pataki and all the members of Congress who have since gone extinct."
 
168Seattle Zen
      ID: 423341717
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 18:45
Or put it another way: imagine if an American operative out of uniform were captured by the Iranians tomorrow. Imagine he were put into a coffin for hours with no light and barely enough air to breathe, imagine if he were then removed and smashed against a plywood wall by a towel tied around his neck thirty times, imagine if he were then kept awake for eleven days in a row, then kept in a cell frozen to hypothermia levels, and then waterboarded multiple times, after which he confessed to being a spy trying to sabotage Iran's nuclear program. Would you believe that intelligence? Would Krauthammer? Would you believe both that he wasn't tortured and that the information he gave was reliable? That is what an otherwise intelligent human being is asking us to do not just in one case but in hundreds, in many of which the prisoner actually died under interrogation.

Would he also insist that what was done to the prisoner, however awful, could not be called torture under American law and the Geneva Conventions? Now imagine that the International Red Cross eventually got access to the prisoner and judged his treatment unequivocally torture; and that the Iranians claimed that since they merely applied "an alternative set of procedures" in order to gain critical intelligence that might have prevented a nuclear accident or sabotage, and remain in compliance with international treaties.

This was so succinct that I had to highlight it again. Horrible crimes were committed, we all know who did them, justice DEMANDS those who made these orders must be tried by a jury.
 
169Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 22:30
MITH

Are you under the illusion that the republican base cares at all what McCain's campaign manager and Arianna Huffington have in the way of advise?

They don't even like republicans.
 
170Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 23:37
Having that discussion with you is pointless. People who fit your impression of the "republican base" showed up wearing Obama masks with Hitler moustaches drawn on them this week. I don't think those are the same people Steve Schmidt is speaking to.
 
171Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 10:41
SZ 168

A case for that very point.
 
172Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 12:14
How should long-entrenched conservative stalwarts seek to renew the GOP's appeal to regular everyday (and especially young) people?

Characterize adults who wear blue jeans as childish and immature and suffering from arrested development?
 
173Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 18, 2009, 12:36
Do you believe there is a conservative anywhere who has a problem with Rush setting the tone?


Setting the tone for the Republican Party:
 
174Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 17:06
a smart, attractive, republican woman with a strong pedigree in politics gives her opinion on the future of the republican party...

"I feel too many Republicans want to cling to past successes…I think we're seeing a war brewing in the Republican Party," she said. "But it is not between us and Democrats. It is not between us and liberals. It is between the future and the past…

"I am concerned about the environment. I love to wear black. I think government is best when it stays out of people's lives and business as much as possible. I love punk rock. I believe in a strong national defense. I have a tattoo. I believe government should always be efficient and accountable. I have lots of gay friends. And yes, I am a Republican," she told a cheering crowd.


if Republicans were smart, she would be a rising star and future face of their party. Sadly, she'll get shredded by Coulter, Limbaugh, and the rest of their ilk long before she's even old enough to run for president.

then again, she apparently has the balls to take on Coulter and has challenged her as recently as last month, and unlike some other wimps in the Republican party, has not backed down (to the best of my knowledge.)
 
175Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 20:37
Even republicans didn't vote for McCain. Why would or should she be the voice of republicans?
 
176DWetzel on bb
      ID: 590182120
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 20:51
The fact that you keep saying it over and over doesn't make it any more true, you know.
 
177Perm Dude
      ID: 183581817
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 21:35
They keep changing the goalposts to ensure that the "right" or "republicans" keep doing the "right" things. When they don't, they are talked about as not being "real" Republicans, or RINOs. Sad, really.
 
178Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 21:37
Saying conservatives are confused about their principles is ridiculous and saying that over and over again is ridiculous especially coming from the people who are saying it.
 
179Perm Dude
      ID: 183581817
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 21:40
When you continually redefine "conservatives" to be "people who agree with me on all issues" and that number keeps shrinking and shrinking, you should not be surprised at what happens.
 
180Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sun, Apr 19, 2009, 23:06
Why would or should she be the voice of republicans?

she shouldn't be THE voice of republicans. as i said, she should be A voice.

and the reason she should be a voice is because it would make a lot of sense.

i mean, i realize that your version of republicans aren't interested in winning elections or even having a real say in the future direction of this country, so it may not make sense to you, but to those who would like to help shape this country, it makes a lot of sense.
 
181Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 09:44
Would you vote for Meagan McCain, Tree?
 
182tree, on the treo
      ID: 55220277
      Mon, Apr 20, 2009, 10:37
if I were a republican, I would be smart enough to at least listen to her and not dismiss her because of her name or body size.
 
183Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 12:22
The Direction of the GOP: Defending and covering up torture.

Slate:
Mark A. Thiessen, a former Bush speechwriter, argues in a Washington Post op-ed (" The CIA's Questioning Worked") that justification for the Bush administration's techniques is there for all to see in a memo from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel dated May 30, 2005, one of the four made public.
Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques "led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles." KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast. The memo explains that "information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the 'Second Wave.' " In other words, without enhanced interrogations, there could be a hole in the ground in Los Angeles to match the one in New York.
Ah, the Library Tower. The thwarting of al-Qaida's attack on it was a favorite talking point of President Bush (though he sometimes called it the "Liberty Tower"; for the past six years, its formal name has been the U.S. Bank Tower). Because the Library Tower is in Los Angeles, the al-Qaida plot to bring it down is sometimes confused with the Millennium Plot, a separate plan to attack Los Angeles International Airport on New Year's Day 2000—supported but not organized by al-Qaida—that came much closer to fruition. The Library Tower, designed by I.M. Pei, stands 73 stories high and is the tallest skyscraper west of the Mississippi. Sheikh Mohammed initially planned to crash a jetliner into it on 9/11 as part of a scheme involving not four but 10 passenger planes on both coasts. Osama Bin Laden vetoed that as too ambitious and scaled back the plan to focus on New York and Washington. After 9/11, Sheikh Mohammed still hoped to execute the attack on the Library Tower and, working with a Southeast Asian al-Qaida affiliate (the aforementioned Hambali), recruited four terror cell members to carry it out.


What clinches the falsity of Thiessen's claim, however (and that of the memo he cites, and that of an unnamed Central Intelligence Agency spokesman who today seconded Thessen's argument), is chronology. In a White House press briefing, Bush's counterterrorism chief, Frances Fragos Townsend, told reporters that the cell leader was arrested in February 2002, and "at that point, the other members of the cell" (later arrested) "believed that the West Coast plot has been canceled, was not going forward" [italics mine]. A subsequent fact sheet released by the Bush White House states, "In 2002, we broke up [italics mine] a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast." These two statements make clear that however far the plot to attack the Library Tower ever got—an unnamed senior FBI official would later tell the Los Angeles Times that Bush's characterization of it as a "disrupted plot" was "ludicrous"—that plot was foiled in 2002. But Sheikh Mohammed wasn't captured until March 2003.

How could Sheikh Mohammed's water-boarded confession have prevented the Library Tower attack if the Bush administration "broke up" that attack during the previous year?
It couldn't, of course. Conceivably the Bush administration, or at least parts of the Bush administration, didn't realize until Sheikh Mohammed confessed under torture that it had already broken up a plot to blow up the Library Tower about which it knew nothing. Stranger things have happened. But the plot was already a dead letter.
 
184Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 12:22
The response on the allegedly conservative side of the aisle ranges from Peggy Noonan's suggestion that we all just "keep walking" to Limbaugh's concerns that the release of our moderate and even genial interrogation techniques make us a laughing stock in Tora Bora and in the caves of Pakistan. Have any of the conservatives on this forum stepped up to express their disgust in what our leaders, which they voted for, did in our name?

Is there really no sense of accountability left on the right at all? We're not talking about a few 10s of thousands of dollars some senator received in gifts from lobbyists. We're talking about officials ordering the torture of prisoners, of deliberate steps to support that activity and to even blatantly lie so as to make it all appear necessary and as having provided some greater public good.

In the Direction of the GOP II thread, Baldwin ripped into me over the weekend, writing "Saying conservatives are confused about their principles is ridiculous and saying that over and over again is ridiculous especially coming from the people who are saying it."

Recalling Baldwin's statement from the Castro thread in 2004, "Pressure to act humanely is never out of order" was indeed more poignant than I initially realized.
 
185Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 12:23
Note I intended 183 and 184 to be a single posts but I think the number of hyperlinks tripped Guru's spam filter so I had to split it up.
 
186Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 12:32
Well asking this forum for a conservative opinion limits its options to me and Boldwin. Either or whom will be cat called into oblivion by trolls or called liars by lurkers or cherry picked to death by PD and others and then you people will wonder why we resort to insults.

But anyway...

Now I am against torture and I want it stopped going forward, but we were/are dealing with a very gray area of executive branch, legislative branch, and military code law related to enemy combatants and not true soldiers in the traditional sense that I have no clue how to decipher.

Due to the urgency of the times the Bush Administration had to react and conduct war with an enemy type that we aren't accustomed to. Afghanistan was not the war of choice, it was the war of necessity and mistakes, including big ones, were going to get made no matter what.
 
187Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 12:59
Mith

You would get more constructive engagement with the right if you recognized that on the left, every last action America took in the WoT amounted to torture and human rights abuses.

The left is ready to lock up the entire executive branch and throw away the key for having once looked crosseyed at a prisoner at Gitmo who had the termitity to throw his feces and urine at the guards.

When the left can distinguish reality from emotionalism and partisan oportunism the discussion can begin.

I am not even sure there is a left once you remove the emotionalism.
 
188Perm Dude
      ID: 3362212
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 13:06
Boxman: Either you are for torture or against it. Asking someone to remain philosophically consistent isn't nit-picking.

That's not to dismiss the very real pressures that a war can bring about. But the more we dig into this particular issue, the more we are seeing an Administration which knew what it wanted to hear and tried to bend reality to it.

To Baldwin's credit, and despite his fixation with what he perceives to be fatal moral flaws on the left, he has been (more or less) consistently against torture for moral reasons.
 
189Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 13:10
MBJ, Boikin, Jedman, Weykool, Wilmer McLean and some others might not post that often but I wouldn't dismiss them.

Anyway, I'm perplexed by a conservative with the opinion that he is opposed to torture and wants it to stop but dismisses the necessity of any punitive justice to seek that end.

This feels like a very conservative position I'm taking here, and therefore one you should be sympathetic to - if we decide to excuse torture conducted by past administrations (in fact, if we prefer to not talk about it at all) what signal does that send to future administrations which consider the use of torture? Why is it even illegal in the first place?
 
190Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 13:12
, every last action America took in the WoT amounted to torture and human rights abuses

um no, and, well, no.

torture, until the bush administration came along and tried to make up new rules, was a very definable thing.

the things that went on in many of these prisons, were torture. keeping people imprisoned, indefinitely, with no chargs, are human rights abuses.


if another country did that to a US citizen, there wouldn't be *any* question, so it goes both ways.
 
191Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 13:13
Like clockwork, when Baldwin gets backed into a corner, he flails wildly at the mean ol' Left. Swing and a miss.

Indeed, the Right's problem has been building strategies/arguments, as MITH pointed out above, without a whole lot of logic behind them. Logic has been been replaced with hysteria on the Right. The Left couldn't believe it worked from 2001-2006, and now the Right can't believe that it still doesn't work.
 
192Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 13:14
The left is ready to lock up the entire executive branch and throw away the key for having once looked crosseyed at a prisoner at Gitmo who had the termitity to throw his feces and urine at the guards.

Yes, that's what the evidence amounts to, "having once looked crosseyed at a prisoner". What's with the refusal to discuss what happened in the reality as it exists?
 
193Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 13:14
PD

Listing practices and policies at Gitmo and reasonably detirmining which did and which did not constitute torture may seem like nit-picking to you.

You were unhappy with, 'You are either for us or against us in the WoT'...

But you want the right to implicitly agree on a blanket condemnation of the entire WoT.
 
194Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 13:16
Anyway, I'm perplexed by a conservative with the opinion that he is opposed to torture and wants it to stop but dismisses the necessity of any punitive justice to seek that end.

I fail to see how you could be confused by what I said.

I stated the gray area I believed the Bush Administration to operating in. Then I also said that I wanted it stopped going forward. So....update regulations and laws to have more clarity so the executive branch and the military knows what is permissible.
 
195Perm Dude
      ID: 3362212
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 13:17
I have no idea what you are talking about, you old, bitter, troll.

There are bright and clear lines that were cross by an Administration which did not even consult its own experts in interrogation techniques before passing them down the line. They did, however, request a number of ass-covering memos.

Call it "nit-picking" to say that waterboarding, hypothermia, fake firing squads, etc etc are torture if that makes you feel better. America is far better nitpicking and talking about the lines it won't cross in the war on terror than getting down in the dirt.
 
196Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 13:22
How do you think the terrorists react to hearing the US has lightened up on its torture policies?
 
197Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 13:38
How do you think the terrorists react to hearing the US has lightened up on its torture policies?

I think they don't give a shit. These are people that are willing to give their lives up to harm civilians, remember?

How do you think the rest of the world reacts to the US learning that we no longer hold ourselves above international law (cue: another rant by Baldwin) condemning torture? We're not the only country in the world that has been a victim of terrorism, you know. Other countries have the same sort of issues they have to grapple with.
 
198Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 13:53
Boxman
How do you think the terrorists react to hearing the US has lightened up on its torture policies?

It's very strange to hear a someone declare his opposition to torture and only a few minutes later ask a question which on it's face attempts a military case for using torture.

To answer your question, I can't imagine they care even one tiny bit. These is no doubting the dedication of people who are willing to die for their cause. If the are sitting in their camp looking foward to the day when they might have the honor of dying for Allah, then they are not going to be deterred by fear of torture.

Further, I've not seen any claim by any American official that we employed torture as any kind of deterrant from engaging in terrorism.

Moreover, as I've said numerous times in this forum, it is simply ludicrous to ever factor our enemies' potential opinion of our tactics in the discussion of whether to impliment them. This is the most extreme position I've seen in defence of American torture, first made by Rush Limbaugh (we're a laughing stock in Tora Bora and in the caves of Afghanistan) and now by Boxman.
 
199Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 14:02
fake firing squads......I haven't heard of that one. That's a good one. Did that work on anyone?
 
200Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 14:05
Mith,

It's very strange to hear a someone declare his opposition to torture and only a few minutes later ask a question which on it's face attempts a military case for using torture.....This is the most extreme position I've seen in defence of American torture, first made by Rush Limbaugh (we're a laughing stock in Tora Bora and in the caves of Afghanistan) and now by Boxman.



And now...

Moreover, as I've said numerous times in this forum, it is simply ludicrous to ever factor our enemies' potential opinion of our tactics in the discussion of whether to impliment them.

So how would you ever conduct warfare without knowing what your enemy thinks of your tactics?
 
201Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 14:09
That's what a moral compass is for.
 
202Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 14:14
Boxman - is it possible for you to have a discussion without you calling people names, or responding to question with a question?

So how would you ever conduct warfare without knowing what your enemy thinks of your tactics?

um, huh?!?!?!

you don't know what your enemy thinks of your tactics. if you did, there wouldn't be any need for war, because we would know who would "win"...

but the bigger point, TORTURE IS NOT PART OF WAR, AT LEAST IT SHOULD NOT BE ON THE PART OF THE UNITED STATES....

seriously though - i couldn't give a rats ass what the terrorists think. i do, however, like to think of the US as the standard-bearer - the shining beacon that other countries look toward as an example of how to behave.

and torturing people who have not been charged with a crime is not how to behave. period.

 
203Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 14:23
you don't know what your enemy thinks of your tactics. if you did, there wouldn't be any need for war, because we would know who would "win"...

Why does the CIA exist? To spy. On what you say? On your enemies and find out WHAT THEY THINK!!!
 
204Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 14:24
High Horse

Why is it you emulate Tree whenever you are losing an argument? Really, being upset that my government committed egregious human rights abuses and speaking my mind about it is a high horse?

So how would you ever conduct warfare without knowing what your enemy thinks of your tactics

This is some serious grasping at straws. Since when is it necessary to know "what your enemy thinks of your tactics" in order to "conduct warfare"? Do you think we send teams of Rassmussen pollsters into Pakistani tribal areas to ask them what they think about predator drones?

The question is one of the dumber ones asked on this forum lately. I mean, the Bush administration went to some lengths to keep these programs a secret. And like I said, I've yet to hear any official (or anyone other than Boxman and Rush Limbaugh - somehow pointing that out puts me on a "high horse" - LAUGH) claim that we torture our prisoners to deter further terrorism.

If anything, knowledge in the Arab and Muslim worlds that America tortures it's Arab and Muslim prisoners was only a major boon for extremist recruiting, and we should be eager to see a stop put to any legitimate reasons to militarily oppose America.
 
205Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 14:26
Why does the CIA exist? To spy. On what you say? On your enemies and find out WHAT THEY THINK!!!

Some of the world's thinnest straw right there.
 
206Pancho Villa
      ID: 43172213
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 15:05
When the left can distinguish reality from emotionalism and partisan oportunism the discussion can begin.

The discussion can begin when parties drop such arrogant proclamations of superiority that prohibit a discussion from ever taking place.

Here's some reality for you as MITH clearly points out in #183.
The Bush administration lied about the Library Tower plot being exposed due to 'interrogation' of Kalid Sheikh Mohammed.

I don't see any right wing pundits or the so-called MSM covering that blatant falsehood, or that much of the 9/11 commission testimony was also based on the same 'interrogation.'

It's stunning that you can use the words with a straight face and not include yourself.

Your goddess, Ann Coulter, writes books with titles like "Treason," "Godless," and "Guilty"; titles that have no other motive but to inspire emotionalism in the form of partisan opportunism.

You start threads like

"Education:The Destruction of America"

and

"Brownshirts and Chaingangs"

then claim

I am not even sure there is a left once you remove the emotionalism.

Your entire schtick is based on emotionalism.


 
207Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 15:11
Never in my life have been more disappointed by the American political right than I am at this moment. I'm not old enough to have seen the civil rights era but I'm sure that's how far back I'd have to go to find a point lower than today.

 
208Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 15:25
I doubt it's worse than Watergate

I don't see any right wing pundits or the so-called MSM covering that blatant falsehood, or that much of the 9/11 commission testimony was also based on the same 'interrogation.'

I don't know if I qualify as a right-wing pundit, but I've posted about this in the 911 thread.
 
209Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 16:29
John Schwenkler:
What I do know, however, is that I’m sick to frigging death of people – self-identifiedly conservative or otherwise – whose reaction to the ongoing revelation of what our government and its representatives did post-9/11 is to say, Oh, well, I’m really opposed to torture, and clearly there were some cases where a few bad apples crossed the line, but we were just trying to do our best, and national security is really important, and these people are pretty awful people after all, so despite the fact that I’m really opposed to torture I’m still okay with what our government did.

NEWSFLASH: If you’re okay with all or most of what our government did, you’re not opposed to torture. Really. It’s that simple. At this point, being head-splittingly outraged by the post-9/11 actions of our government and its representatives is a necessary condition on being an opponent of torture.
H/T: Sullivan
 
210boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 16:40
NEWSFLASH: If you’re okay with all or most of what our government did, you’re not opposed to torture. Really. It’s that simple. At this point, being head-splittingly outraged by the post-9/11 actions of our government and its representatives is a necessary condition on being an opponent of torture.

This guy is full of himself. If there is one thing i know about this world nothing is black and white but, whatever. Did he really end his post: So QED FAIL. Great, i see the future and it is not pretty.
 
211Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 17:05
It appears that the right has managed to desensitize itself to the point that their own previously held moral standards are now regarded as no more than slightly embarrassing naivete.
 
212Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 17:45
Boikin

Since you clicked the link, you know I left out much of the original post, going just with the portion that made what I felt was a strong point. If I were posting #209 again, I'd shave off the last sentence that I initially chose to include.

Prior to the sentence, the excerpt specifically associates being "okay with what our government did" with being "not opposed to torture".

In that last sentence, he goes a bit further and demands that you must not only *not be okay* with what our government did, but that you must be "head-splittingly outraged". In my opinion the distinction is not a small one and as I've already stated elsewhere today on the forum, this is not an easy issue to grapple with.
 
213Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 18:09
It appears that the right has managed to desensitize itself to the point that their own previously held moral standards are now regarded as no more than slightly embarrassing naivete.

What is the moral difference between torturing a terrorist versus starving a crippled woman to death in Florida?
 
214Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 18:17
Leftists believe in unpersons.
 
215Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 18:25
I've never advocated starving anyone who was simply "crippled".

But your drawing a moral equivolency between the torture of detainees in American custody and a man choosing to euthanize his long brain-dead wife is pathetic and shameful.
 
216Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 18:28
But your drawing a moral equivolency between the torture of detainees in American custody and a man choosing to euthanize his long brain-dead wife is pathetic and shameful.

Weak.
 
217Perm Dude
      ID: 21382216
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 18:28
And hypocritical.
 
218Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 18:29
...as is perpetuating the religious right's charade that Teri Schaivo's condition was anything other than a persistant vegetative state, as diagnosed by every last doctor without a Christainist agenda who examined her, including the doctor who conducted the autopsy.
 
219Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 18:30
Weak.

No, what's weak is a supposed "Christian" (laff) who supports torture.
 
220Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 18:54
Fvck you. I don't believe in killing people. That's you.
 
221Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 18:57
I don't believe in killing people.

No, you believe in and support the practice of torturing people. And you reaffirm that belief and support every time you defend the practice.
 
222Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 18:58
Really Mr. S#it For Brains? Really? REALLY?

How many times do I have to say I'm against torture? Did I say I supported it?

Again, fvck you.
 
223Perm Dude
      ID: 21382216
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 18:58
MITH: This is, of course, what one might expect from a fusion of conservative politics with hardcore Protestant religion. Schiavo isn't about the science of the autopsy. It is about the level of faith in the cause. Insisting upon the science as trumping all sets up another religion vs science argument that the Far Right enjoys engaging, since it re-affirms their self-martyrdom.

You see it elsewhere with the attempts to cut out of the flock and disavow anyone who doesn't toe the political line-of-the-day.
 
224Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 19:11
Boxman
How many times do I have to say I'm against torture?

Every time you openly support the practice of torture, you effectively negate any claim that you oppose it.

If you were really against it, you wouldn't have to be prompted to express outrage at it when it occurs.

Can anyone tell me, is there any place in this forum where Boxman or Baldwin have come out and expressed outrage at their government's torture of detainees on American custody?

Anywhere?

Again, fvck you.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Now I know I've seen you guys "outraged" before. Outraged at far less egregious activites than the torture of human beings.

How come when elected Republicans are caught committing such brutal acts, you run away from your alleged moral and religious codes and avoid the topic? Why are you able to state that you oppose torture when it is referred to in a general sense but when it comes down to real people who have conducted real torture on real detainees in American custody, your supposed moral and religious code is suddenly ambiguous and cloudy?

Does anyone here believe for a fleeting moment that if it were Bill Clinton or Barack Obama who were found to be at the top of this mess, that these two frauds would be able to contain their selective outrage?

Here is an example of why this forum is so valuable:

Back in January of 2002, just 4+ months after 9/11, the rubble in downtown New York was still smoldering. There was never a time in my life before or since in which the threat of terrorism was more present in America's consciousness.

The war in Afghanistan was maybe 2 months old and nerveclinic began a thread titled, Accusations of Human Rights violations against US, in which he introduced an Amnesty International report about possible prisoner mistreatment at a "prison camp in Cuba". The thread still exists and can be accessed from the "review deleted threads" selection in the lower of the two pull-down menus in the upper right of any poli-forum page.

Anyway, here's post 5 from that thread, authored 1/21/2002:
5 Baldwin
ID: 310261322
Mon, Jan 21, 2002, 11:37 It strikes me that these are people who would gladly infect themselves with some pathogen [ala 12 Monkeys] in order to infect a whole military base so the surgical masks are more likely there to defend against a bio-attack. Then again a country on the brink of total starvation may already have severe TB or other infectious disease problems.

The photo of them kneeling down also includes a guard inside the cell so it's not hard to see why the prisoners would be asked to assume a non-threatening posture until he finishes his inspection. Now if we find out they were sensory deprived and forced to kneel for days on end we are dealing with a whole nuther animal.
Memo to Baldwin (since his posting on the topic reflects no understanding of this): It's a whole nuther animal
 
225Seattle Zen
      ID: 13362212
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 19:16
Really Mr. S#it For Brains? Really? REALLY?

MITH - why do you bother dealing with this mental midget? He is seriously out of his league. He needs to find a local slow-pitch softball beer league, co-ed, senior citizen, even.
 
226Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 19:23
Oh... call it a guilty pleasure.
 
227WiddleAvi
      ID: 343531513
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 20:45
Boxman / Baldwin..

1. Is waterboarding torture ?

2. Is torture illegal ?

If you answered yes to those questions then should please explain me why the people who commited the crime should not be punished. If you answered no the any of the above then would you be ok to captured american soldiers being subject to waterboarding ?
 
228Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Apr 22, 2009, 21:21
In #224 I wrote:
Every time you openly support the practice of torture, you effectively negate any claim that you oppose it.
and
Can anyone tell me, is there any place in this forum where Boxman or Baldwin have come out and expressed outrage at their government's torture of detainees on American custody?
Both uses of the word 'outrage' were very sloppy. I'd realized earlier that demanding the response of outrage as a "necessary condition" for sufficient general opposition to torture isn't a reasonable position, and even conceded as much in post 212.

So I apologize to any readers for allowing myself to get a little carried away there. It's not fair to demand that Boxman and Baldwin "express outrage" to prove that they oppose torture.

It is, however, entirely reasonable and I think requisite to expect them to renounce the conduct and criticize those who had it commited. That is what I should have said in post 224.

So I'll amend what I wrote:
If you were really against it, you wouldn't have to be prompted to renounce it when it occurs.

Can anyone tell me, is there any place in this forum where Boxman or Baldwin have come out and criticized their government's torture of detainees on American custody?
 
229Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 06:00
Be so kind as to search thru 40 rotoguru threads yourself whenever I get the itch to give you makework and keep you busy.
 
230Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 06:33
i could be wrong here, but MITH's point is a simple one (and MITH, lord knows i've missed your point before, so correct me if i am wrong. lol).

it's fine and dandy to say you're against torture, but if you're also against prosecuting those who practice and authorize said torture, then really, you're not making much of a stand against a heinous crime that goes against the basic core of American principles.

that also makes a statement to those nations that DO engage in torture - it's NOT ok to torture, but if you do, eh, don't worry about it. JUST DON'T DO IT AGAIN! (complete with a wag of the finger)...

(and if this wasn't MITH's point, it's mine. )
 
231dwetzel on BB
      ID: 590182120
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 09:30
Boy, Boxman sure loves to mock me when I get angry.

Hypocrite.

Should I go ahead and copy and paste the forum standards so someone can explain the big words?
 
232Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 10:34
Tree
Its simple hypocrisy. If you refuse to condemn real occurrances of torture when they happen and those who carry it out, then you tacitly support torture, even if you happen to also oppose it out of the other side of your mouth.

Boxman's claim that he opposes the practice of torture would be exactly the same as me claiming to oppose the practice of abortion.
 
233Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 11:08
Is it even possible to deny that the American political right has tricked itself into torture appeasement?

Here's an excerpt from Michelle Malkin column dated 6/9/2004, which she titled, "My Reagan Moment":
The president looked into the audience and singled out Jeremiah Denton, an American pilot shot down by North Vietnamese troops and imprisoned for eight brutal years. He was beaten, starved and thrown into solitary confinement. In 1966, during a televised propaganda interview with a pro-Commie journalist arranged by his captors, Denton was pressured to condemn American wartime "atrocities."

Instead, Denton stood by his country: "(W)hatever the position of my government is, I believe in it, I support it, and I will support it as long as I live." Denton pretended the camera lighting bothered his eyes. With his clueless jailers surrounding him, Denton looked into the lens, blinked his eyes in Morse Code, and covertly broadcast the truth to the world -- Jane Fonda be damned -- by spelling out "T-O-R-T-U-R-E."
Today, Malkin tells her readers that oppositin to those very same procedures are left-wing extremism and Cheney Derrangement Syndrome and refers to Marc Thiessen's thoroughly debunked (which took all of looking at a calendar) Library Tower Plot claim as an inconvenient truth.

What was it Baldwin posted the other day... oh yes:

Saying conservatives are confused by their principles is ridiculous.
 
234Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 11:09
H/T Sullivan for the first link in #233.
 
235Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 15:43
WSJ: Leaving the door open for prosecuting war criminals has pre-empted any chance Obama had at "a new era of bipartisan respect in Washington".

Damn! And I was just thinking to myself that the torture-appeasing right would probably start respecting their president the moment their arms got tired from carrying around those signs depicting Obama as Hitler!

How much do we think will be left of the right once the sane moderates get tired of the blind opposition, ticit support for torture and Hitler moustaches?
 
236Perm Dude
      ID: 213592312
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 16:16
Pre-empted, mind you. As if the Republicans were helpful members of the "loyal opposition" thus far.

As a writer noted on TPM:

Last week, conservatives were complaining Obama was establishing a socialistic fascist dictatorship.

This week, conservatives are complaining Obama does not want to torture his opponents.
 
237Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 16:23
I said the same thing yesterday in the Obama thread. It's funny to realize that, whatever Obama did with the torture memos, release them or not, and whether or not he leaves open the possibility for prosecutions (to the extent that he controls that possibility) Baldwin and the unhinged right wing will cite his decisions as yet further evidence of the coming Obama dictatorship.
 
238Perm Dude
      ID: 213592312
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 16:25
Like the Bush Administration, there are some who already know the facts and spend mucho time and energy backing up those facts.
 
239Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sun, Apr 26, 2009, 14:51
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-maher24-2009apr24,0,927819.story

fun snippets...

If conservatives don't want to be seen as bitter people who cling to their guns and religion and anti-immigrant sentiments, they should stop being bitter and clinging to their guns, religion and anti-immigrant sentiments...

Republican Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota recently said she fears that Obama will build "reeducation" camps to indoctrinate young people. But Obama hasn't made any moves toward taking anyone's guns, and with money as tight as it is, the last thing the president wants to do is run a camp where he has to shelter and feed a bunch of fat, angry white people...

The thing that you people out of power have to remember is that the people in power are not secretly plotting against you. They don't need to. They already beat you in public...
 
240Baldwin
      ID: 553441513
      Sun, Apr 26, 2009, 22:32
Of course Hitler beat his opposition in public and he was secretly plotting against lots of people who had good reason to worry. So that is one dimwitted snippet.

 
241Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sun, Apr 26, 2009, 22:58
in your cuckoo world, everyone is plotting in secret.

keep comparing Obama to Hitler. it suits you well.
 
242boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Apr 27, 2009, 14:49
Death of the GOP or insured reelection of Obama?
 
243Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 13:35
The latest indicator of the direction of the GOP:
"I have been a Republican since 1966. I have been working extremely hard for the Party, for its candidates and for the ideals of a Republican Party whose tent is big enough to welcome diverse points of view. While I have been comfortable being a Republican, my Party has not defined who I am. I have taken each issue one at a time and have exercised independent judgment to do what I thought was best for Pennsylvania and the nation.

Since my election in 1980, as part of the Reagan Big Tent, the Republican Party has moved far to the right. Last year, more than 200,000 Republicans in Pennsylvania changed their registration to become Democrats. I now find my political philosophy more in line with Democrats than Republicans."

"I deeply regret that I will be disappointing many friends and supporters. I can understand their disappointment. I am also disappointed that so many in the Party I have worked for for more than four decades do not want me to be their candidate. It is very painful on both sides."
 
244Seattle Zen
      ID: 563222811
      Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 13:47
HA! Sixty Democratic senators has just sent McConnell and the Republicans to the kids table. I love it!
 
245Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 14:00
Markos Moulitsas
In some ways, Specter's switch doesn't give us anything much. As his statement says, he's not switching back on EFCA, he won't be a reliable Democratic vote, and he'll probably duke it out with Lieberman to be the most obnoxious anti-Democratic voice from within the caucus.

On the other hand, he was going to lose his primary and we'd easily pick up the seat against Toomey, giving us a real Democrat in that seat. Doesn't seem like a great deal.

This move is about political survival, and nothing more. Specter's overriding concern is staying in the Senate, and he'll bend whatever conviction is necessary to make that happen. And since it was clear he wasn't going to survive a primary challenge, well, he did what he needed to do. I wouldn't be surprised, if the Dems pick up a good primary challenger to Specter, for the incumbent to suddenly re-find religion on EFCA. It's not as if Specter believes in anything beyond his title and choice parking spot near the Capitol.

We've been systematically making the case since the election that the GOP is now a regional southern party. And what better way to strike home that point than to see a moderate northeastern Republican switch parties, complaining about his party's swing to the far right? And it's a trend that if fully played out, could net us one or two additional seats in Maine, where Sen. Olympia Snowe could be a legitimate Democrat.

Furthermore, Republicans will be thrown into further turmoil. Can we forget Sen. John Cornyn, NRSC chair, saying a week ago:
A vote for Arlen Specter is a vote for denying Harry Reid and the Democrats a filibuster-proof Senate.
So much for that. And while Specter is no guaranteed vote, he'll be far more likely to give Democrats that critical 60th vote without fear of its effects in a Republican primary.

And remember, the GOP's rise in both Congress and in the media from the 60s to the 90s was fueled, in huge part, to party switchers. Strom Thurmond, Phil Gramm, Bill Bennett, Rick Perry, Elizabeth Dole, Richard Shelby, and Ben Nighthorse Campbell where all Democrats at one point, and switched to great fanfare to the GOP. Heck, even Arlen Specter was a Democrat before switching to the GOP in 1965.

So while I may not be cheering the substance of Specter's switch today, I'm definitely going to enjoy the massive hit the Republican Party will be taking today. Indeed, it's gotten that much easier to tell the story of a Republican Party so extreme, its losing ground everywhere outside the South.
 
246Perm Dude
      ID: 42362813
      Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 14:07
Wow. TPM with a big story.

I was going to start a thread on the PA race, since it is terribly interesting to me the dynamics of what is going on. Specter has been heavily lobbied by Rendell & Casey for some time to switch parties, since the GOP has, seemingly, left its big-tent behind.

Meanwhile, Toomey is kicking Spector's ass in early polling (20 point, last I saw).

Given that only 21% of voters now self-identify as Republicans this doesn't mean as much as it once did. Toomey will run the hard right, shoot-from-the-hip campaign he did last time (and which has been cheered on by those who aren't in the know about the last few elections). The unions threw Specter a lifeline and he's grabbed it.
 
247Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Apr 29, 2009, 14:58
I'm rethinking my opening sentence in post 243 and the characterization of the Specter news as the "latest indicator of the direction of the GOP". It's a bit unfair and probably not all that accurate. As Kos said in the excerpt in #245, "This move is about political survival, and nothing more."

So with that said, Here's a portion from Senator Olympia Snowe's (R-ME) NY Times Op-Ed, which I'll post here rather than in the "Specter changes parties" thread because I reject the Specter story as a logical impetus for these otherwise sentient excerpts, which support much of what I've written in this thread:
It was as though beginning with Senator Jeffords’s decision, Republicans turned a blind eye to the iceberg under the surface, failing to undertake the re-evaluation of our inclusiveness as a party that could have forestalled many of the losses we have suffered.

It is true that being a Republican moderate sometimes feels like being a cast member of “Survivor” — you are presented with multiple challenges, and you often get the distinct feeling that you’re no longer welcome in the tribe.

I have said that, without question, we cannot prevail as a party without conservatives. But it is equally certain we cannot prevail in the future without moderates.

In that same vein, I am reminded of a briefing by a prominent Republican pollster after the 2004 election. He was asked what voter groups Republicans might be able to win over. He responded: women in general, married women with children, Hispanics, the middle class in general, and independents.

How well have we done as a party with these groups? Unfortunately, the answer is obvious from the results of the last two elections. We should be reaching out to these segments of our population — not de facto ceding them to the opposing party.

There is no plausible scenario under which Republicans can grow into a majority while shrinking our ideological confines and continuing to retract into a regional party. Ideological purity is not the ticket back to the promised land of governing majorities — indeed, it was when we began to emphasize social issues to the detriment of some of our basic tenets as a party that we encountered an electoral backlash.

It is for this reason that we should heed the words of President Ronald Reagan, who urged, “We should emphasize the things that unite us and make these the only ‘litmus test’ of what constitutes a Republican: our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty.” He continued, “As to the other issues that draw on the deep springs of morality and emotion, let us decide that we can disagree among ourselves as Republicans and tolerate the disagreement.”
 
248Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Wed, Apr 29, 2009, 17:06
Please find those things that she believes are the basic tenets of the party.

I want to hear a lecture from her about principles. That would be entertaining.
 
249Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Apr 29, 2009, 17:15
kind of like hearing a lecture about your principles, eh?
 
250Perm Dude
      ID: 5352911
      Wed, Apr 29, 2009, 17:17
I think the point is that the GOP forces out moderates by trying to identify "principles" more and more narrowly.

I, for one, won't be led down that path of you, of all people, telling me what principles are conservative and which are not.

Unlike Reagan, you spend far too much time trying to divide people and virtually no time uniting, unless it is to insist that they agree with your "principles."
 
251Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Wed, Apr 29, 2009, 17:24
Despite a three decade head start in the universities, sixties liberals had not succeeded in driving traditional American values from the hearts and minds of the people. Reagan didn't compromise his principles. He reminded people of their original principles.
 
252Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Wed, Apr 29, 2009, 17:25
No guarantee that holds, especially with Ayers in charge of the nursery.
 
253Perm Dude
      ID: 5352911
      Wed, Apr 29, 2009, 17:30
ROFL. You are going to have to decide if you agree with yourself or with Reagan. As noted above:

“We should emphasize the things that unite us and make these the only ‘litmus test’ of what constitutes a Republican: our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty.” He continued, “As to the other issues that draw on the deep springs of morality and emotion, let us decide that we can disagree among ourselves as Republicans and tolerate the disagreement.”
 
254Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Wed, Apr 29, 2009, 17:33
I never said Reagan was for throwing Snow out of the party for being pro abortion. Where did he ever compromise the above listed principles in order to court more dems?
 
255Perm Dude
      ID: 5352911
      Wed, Apr 29, 2009, 17:38
Reagan was elected by the "Reagan Democrats." Dems enjoyed a massive voter advantage, and yet voted for him for the same reason you mock Obama: His ability to articulate a big tent country in which our commonalities are emphasized in order to solve our common problems.

The GOP couldn't be less like Reagan anymore.

You ever run across a self-declared "Christian" who didn't act very Christ-like at all? That is how the GOP is with Reagan now.
 
256Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Apr 29, 2009, 18:14
You ever run across a self-declared "Christian" who didn't act very Christ-like at all?

he posted right before you did.

anyway, here's another indicator of how off the wall the Republican party can be, with North Carolina Rep. Virginia Foxx calling the reasons for the Matthew Shepard murder "a hoax"...

 
257Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Thu, Apr 30, 2009, 15:40
Obama cannot be Reaganesque in that he cannot remind Americans of their common socialist heritage and shared socialist principles since there is no such thing.
 
258Perm Dude
      ID: 343113011
      Thu, Apr 30, 2009, 15:46
Uh, right. Still think that Obama is a socialist, eh? And you also seem to believe that a socialist cannot speak about other common attributes of Americans other than socialism?

Reagan was great because he didn't do the things you attribute to him. For example, he didn't remind people of the common things that we share that only he brought to the table.
 
259Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Thu, Apr 30, 2009, 15:56
the common things that we share that only he brought to the table. - PD

Priceless.
 
260Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, May 01, 2009, 16:38
The number of examples of the political right's confusion over it's own principles is simply unending. Here's Sullivan on Krauthammer today:
Krauthammer: Withdraw From Geneva
That's the only clear inference one can draw from Charles Krauthammer's latest column in defense of the indefensible. Back in 2005, in an influential essay that helped move the US into the ranks of torture states, he wrote:
Let's take the textbook case. Ethics 101: A terrorist has planted a nuclear bomb in New York City. It will go off in one hour. A million people will die. You capture the terrorist. He knows where it is. He's not talking. Question: If you have the slightest belief that hanging this man by his thumbs will get you the information to save a million people, are you permitted to do it? Now, on most issues regarding torture, I confess tentativeness and uncertainty. But on this issue, there can be no uncertainty: Not only is it permissible to hang this miscreant by his thumbs. It is a moral duty.
In 2009, the scenario has evolved into this:
The first is the ticking time bomb. An innocent's life is at stake. The bad guy you have captured possesses information that could save this life. He refuses to divulge. In such a case, the choice is easy.
Wow. We've gone from justifying torture in order to prevent nuclear holocaust all the way to justifying it for merely saving one innocent person's life. Notice also that all that is required to torture is "the slightest belief" that the torture victim has useful information. This exception is therefore not an exception. It's a rule, allowing anyone in government with any scintilla of a suspicion that a captive has information that could save lives to torture or abuse him.
 
261sarge33rd
      ID: 49431110
      Fri, May 01, 2009, 16:43
The entire scenario is faulty in that it assumes (a) the one in custody is a 'bad guy' and (b) is in possession of the requisite information.


How about a rewrite to reflect the Bush Admin reality? Instead of:

The first is the ticking time bomb. An innocent's life is at stake. The bad guy you have captured possesses information that could save this life. He refuses to divulge. In such a case, the choice is easy.

This:

The first is the ticking time bomb. An innocent's life is at stake. The guy you have captured may or may not possesses information that could save this life. He refuses or is unable to divulge.

Now, what is the morally correct thing to do?

 
262Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, May 01, 2009, 17:07
Von at ObWi:
Purity. That has been the response by a number of Republicans to Sen. McCain's defeat by President Obama: focus on ideological purity. And how is it going? Well, it has cost us the Senate. We spend a lot of time defending a failed Vice Presidential candidate. Sen. DeMint proclaims "I would rather have 30 Republicans in the Senate who really believe in principles of limited government, free markets, free people, than to have 60 that don't have a set of beliefs," so that the Republican party can be safely ignored by everyone. Republicans already can't stop a bloated, inefficient stimulus package because they aren't offering any realistic alternatives. Oh, yeah, and a recent poll has the number of folks self-identifying as Republicans below 30%.

Heckuva job, folks. (But ask us about our tea parties!)

It is time to face facts. Even if it were popular -- and it's not -- the purest form of conservative ideology is not going to reverse this trend. No party has returned from the wilderness by becoming an even purer version of its losing self. Ideology doesn't fix roads or defend the country. "No" is not a plan, "I'm angry" is not a winning message, and a hodge-podge of wedge issues is not a policy. Plus, the wedge on one issue -- gay marriage -- is reversing. (As a supporter of gay marriage, I'm grateful for that.)

Parties get elected, first, because they are perceived to be competent. That is, they have practical ideas that appeal to a broad swath of voters. Messaging is secondary. You can be the best damn outside the beltway Army of Davids there is, but that's all window dressing. It is what is inside the window the counts: what you say you will do, not who you are or where you live. (Put another way: When the grass roots win, it's not because they are grass roots. The grass roots win the same way as anyone else: by convincing other folks that they are right.)

Although the point is sometimes missed, Obama's campaign was a model for this. Obama had great messaging -- hope & change & unicorns, hooray! -- but messaging wasn't Obama's foundation. Obama proposed solutions to problems that actual people actually had. Health care. Jobs. Education. The environment. I didn't agree with many of Obama's proposals, but he had them and he talked about them endlessly. This is what he was going to do to solve your problem, bud, however vaguely-worded this might be.

Republicans, on the other hand, were saddled with an unpopular President, unpopular policies, and a candidate who claimed the title of maverick but had to shed his maverick-i-ness to placate each Balkan (too easy -mith) in his party base. Pragmatic responses to kitchen table issues? Not so much. How about a tax cut that no one can really explain and then some health care plan we'll figure out later .... Plus, I totally heard from someone that the other dude's a secret Muslim.

This didn't work because it never works -- and the fault is not McCain's, entirely, but also the fault of a party leadership and faithful that rallied behind George Bush and Dick Cheney for eight years of drift and incompetence. I'm not asking Republicans abandon their core principles. What I am asking is for Republicans to stop talking about their principles and start putting those principles into practice -- something that many Republicans are loathe to do because it requires them to make their principles practical. Focus on delivering government services that people want in a way that they want them; y'know, governing.
Click through for the rest of the piece and links.
 
263DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, May 01, 2009, 17:24
"I would rather have 30 Republicans in the Senate who really believe in principles of limited government, free markets, free people, than to have 60 that don't have a set of beliefs,"

In all seriousness, if you could find 30 Republicans in the Senate who actually believed in those things, consistently, and acted accordingly, I might just vote for 'em.

My honest guess is that you couldn't find ten, though. The rest are all for those things except when freedom allows things they don't like.
 
264Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sat, May 02, 2009, 17:12
Bob Barr weighs in...

Former Georgia Rep. Bob Barr said Saturday it’s hard to “overestimate the damage” that’s been inflicted on the Republican Party — not only with this week's defection of Sen. Arlen Specter, but also the “lack of any coherent philosophy, vision or leadership.”

“The Republican Party is in very deep trouble right now,” Barr said in an interview with CNN.


as does Newt Gingrich....

Defending (RNC chairman Michael) Steele’s tumultuous start, Gingrich said the chairman might be under fire from some in the committee because he “probably has not yet learned the art of massaging the egos of RNC members.”

“They all think they’re precious, and they all think they should be taken care of, and they all think the job of the chairman, first of all, is to make the RNC members happy,” Gingrich said of the committee’s 168 members.
 
265Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 09:48
Focus on delivering government services that people want in a way that they want them; y'know, governing. - Von at ObWi

The problem with this statement is that americans who pay taxes don't want anything from government but to be left alone...

...and americans who don't pay taxes have been convinced that they have a natural right to far more than any human government could ever afford to deliver.
 
266Perm Dude
      ID: 40450321
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 09:50
The problem with this statement is that americans who pay taxes don't want anything from government but to be left alone...

That's not even close to being true.

Maybe you forgot to add "in my house" after the word "taxes."

All Americans pay taxes, BTW. You buy something, you pay a tax.
 
267Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 09:56
You say that like it's a good thing.

Of course I mean no federal income tax. Naturally buying votes requires taxing everything under the sun on top of that.

 
268Perm Dude
      ID: 40450321
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 10:32
I say it like it is a fact.

Some recent Gallup polling on "fair share" taxing.
 
269boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 10:41
I say it like it is a fact.

????


 
270Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 10:43
That's a very interesting poll. Amazing that Republicans and Democrats are in perfect agreement about the tax burden placed on the middle class. The fundamental disagreements between the two come when discussing the tax burdens of the rich and the poor.
 
271Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 10:46
The easily debunked claim that half of the country's households don't pay taxes is just another of the GOP's self cannibalizing talking points.

Even if you could make it true by limiting the claim to income taxes (you can't) the notion that income taxes are somehow more important than all other taxes doesn't sell, anyway.

Does it really not even occur to you dolts the massive portion of your own constituency you ostracize by castigating Americans with slim income tax liabilities as you cry 'taxed enough already'?

The hard right desperately wants a "return" to an over-romanticized distortion of the Reagan years. One which focuses only on that which serves to support the blindly seething anti-liberal agenda of today's reactionary right and actively disregards the big-tent openness that was necessary to make Reagan's ascension possible.

In the backs of their heads and in the pits of their stomachs, they know that what they claim to seek is in reality a perversion of that legacy. How may more constituents will they have to hemorrhage before they are forced to acknowledge the obvious?
 
272biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 13:39
 
273Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 13:56
How ironic that Baldwin would type #265 on the morning that Obama rolled out his plan to go after tax havens.

Any guesses for how will the obstructionist right manage to reconcile their pro-tax-haven opposition to Obama with their lament that "not enough" Americans pay taxes?
 
274DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 15:01
They can either blame it on the gays, or jingle their keys.
 
275Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 15:02
They'll probably argue that tax loopholes available for the poor, poor rich are the only recourse from overbearing and unjust taxation which is just a couple of percentage points higher than the rest of his non-tax haven-having schmucks have to pay. They'll argue that the rich need tax havens to keep wealth in the economy and that without them, the economy will collapse. They are a pretty predictable group, MITH.
 
276Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 16:34
Funny how it was practically just yesterday when the GOP's great marketing advantage was the ease with which they were able to frame their position in seemingly every debate in the most simplistic terms.

Funny how quickly the tables have turned, at least on some issues. For example, it takes a lot more explaining to get to the heart of GOP positions such as their opposition to 'anti-corporate-tax-loopholes' or their opposition 'anti-torture', especially when you consider the difficulty in reconciling these positions with certain other conservative principles.

Surely it's just the dumb luck of happening to have language structure on your side for a moment in politics, but I'm pretty sure I've heard a some on the right claim that a certain ethical high ground is somehow indicated by the elegant simplicity of such framing as 'tax relief'.
 
277Perm Dude
      ID: 15453417
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 18:53
Michael Steele to Moderates: "You're welcome to join the GOP" but "Understand that when you come into someone's house, you're not looking to change it."

I'd have thought Michael Steele would have run out of feet to shoot.
 
278biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 19:22
Red State's Erick Ericson is a twit:

MRM: The nation loses the only goat fcuking child molester to ever serve on the Supreme Court in David Souter's retirement.

Nice to see the GOP excising their wingnuts. Not.
 
279Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 20:32
Anything special about that Tweeter? Like is he a congressman?

 
280tree, on the treo
      ID: 55220277
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 21:23
Anything special about that Tweeter? Like is he a congressman?

he's got pretty much the same credentials as any of the bloggers you often use in your own posts....
 
281Perm Dude
      ID: 15453417
      Mon, May 04, 2009, 23:29
Another source for the same thing.
 
282Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 08:22
According to Wiki, Erick Erickson is the Chairman of the Board and Managing Editor of RedState.

At his personal blog, Erickson describes RedState as "the largest right of center blogging community on the internet" and "also the most widely read right of center blog on Capitol Hill" and the "most quoted right of center blog in the media".

On whether he qualifies as a relevant voice for the politcal right, I'm pretty sure Erick Erickson is at least as apt as, for example, if bili were to cherrypick reader comments under an article at thehill.com., don't you think?
 
283Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 08:38
Rick Moran at Pajamas Media
If Reagan Tolerated GOP Moderates, Why Can’t Today’s Conservatives?

The Gipper's "big tent" Republicanism is an anathema to the ideologues of today

...the death of former Congressman and 1996 vice presidential candidate Jack Kemp has reminded some conservatives that the GOP used to be a party that featured a much bigger tent, welcoming politicians like Kemp into the fold despite large disagreements on fundamental issues. During his political career, Kemp broke with the conservative base on “red-lining” by banks (discriminating against minorities in their lending practices), poverty programs, and, most notably, immigration reform. He was proud of his association with more moderate Republicans like Pete Dupont and counted many Democrats among his friends.

To say that Kemp would have been drummed out of the conservative movement today for his support for illegal alien amnesty is self-evident. But here was a politician who helped turn Ronald Reagan’s ideas into policy, someone who probably agreed with the conservative base 90% of the time. How can any party or movement that seeks majority status so blithely dismiss conservatives like Kemp and refuse them a seat at the table?

The fact that there are many in the party who actually think it a good idea to shrink the GOP by subtracting less conservative, less ideological, more moderate members is incomprehensible. In the minority already, draining the Republican Party of anyone who fails to demonstrate what many conservative activists determine as sufficient enthusiasm for their agenda strikes me as madness.

It’s not that the activists don’t have a point. Tossing aside conservative principles and running candidates who offer little in the way of contrast to the Democrats would be useless. But at the same time, there has got to be some recognition that the party must expand beyond the 30% or so of the electorate who identify themselves as “conservative.” Otherwise, you condemn the GOP to permanent minority status — a regional, monochromatic grouping that would exist largely in the south and pockets of the Midwest and Mountain West.

To clarify, if the reason one holds to conservative principles is something beyond idly exercising one’s brain, it should be obvious that one of the purposes of conservatism is that it be realized as a governing philosophy. For that to happen, conservatives need a political vessel to translate thought into actions. This is where the Republican Party comes into play and why looking for reasons to include people rather than inventing reasons to exclude those with whom they disagree must be the number one goal for both activists and party regulars.

 
284Seattle Zen
      ID: 3943859
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 10:46
I was thinking along those lines, too, when I heard the news about Jack Kemp. I will always remember him during his days as Housing Sec. for Bush 41, he was a huge proponent of "enterprise zones" in tough neighborhoods. He spent all this effort to improve the lives of people who would never vote for him, that's selfless.

Today that idea would be bounced as "socialism" today.
 
285Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 11:26
Actually conservatives are for enterprise and actually empowering struggling new businessmen. What good would enterprise zones do liberals? They don't want to see anyone succeed. Businessmen are evil and greedy, don't you know.

I was never aware of any groundswell to dismiss Kemp from the party. True immigration is a touchstone/hot potato, but was Kemp pro illegal immigration? Not to my knowledge.
 
286Perm Dude
      ID: 15453417
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 11:36
Kemp took heat for being against Prop 187, California's proposed punitive anti-illegal immigration law. Kemp was also for amnesty for illegals.

Now, you tell me Baldwin: Would these ideas fly in today's GOP? Or, as Zen points out, would this be another failed litmus test for a RINO?

I think you are far more comfortable dealing with symbols rather than the dirtier world of facts.
 
287Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 11:44
My impression of Kemp was that unlike liberals, he actually cared about finding functional affordable ways to help the disadvantaged, and was all about substance, not style.

This was not a free spender. He was an effective spender.
 
288Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 11:55
But if you can really demonstrate he was pro-illegal immigration, I'll take back my compliments.
 
289Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 12:07
Isn't support of amnesty all it took for you to brand McCain as "pro-illegal immigration" (#52)?

And it took less than that for you to paste the same label to W's forehead (#169).

 
290Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 12:28
The vast majority of 'amnesty' plans are pro-illegal immigration. If there is no end in sight, then yes.
 
291Perm Dude
      ID: 15453417
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 12:31
What form would "pro-illegal immigration" take for you? Amnesty seems to do it. Would increasing the number of immigrants we take in each year? How about someone who believes that an enforcement-alone policy is dead wrong, and a guest worker program is vital to this country?
 
292Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 14:38
at this rate, Baldwin's Republican party will be a party of one.
 
293Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 15:36
Really? REALLY? Anything you say Treetard.

 
294Perm Dude
      ID: 15453417
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 15:36
Value-added Boxman.
 
295Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 15:38
One must always guard oneself against becoming Treetarded. It's too late for Treetard.
 
296Perm Dude
      ID: 15453417
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 15:53
Since I'm sure you are much smarter than your posts today have demonstrated, I think the best way to make sure you aren't "treetarded" is to stop posting. Clearly posting here is bringing out the worst in you.
 
297Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 16:00
He wouldn't be the first person banned from the forum.

Was Ukula's behavior really any worse?
 
298Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, May 05, 2009, 16:22
impressive Box. i tap out to your superior intellect and posting prowess.
 
299Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, May 06, 2009, 14:42
 
300Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, May 06, 2009, 14:49


 
301Perm Dude
      ID: 21453619
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 02:13
Rush releases Colin Powell from GOP duty.

 
302Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 07:36
Called Powell a racist, too. Rush will do wonders for the recruiting of young minority Republicans with public comments like that.

He should have made himself leader of the party a long time ago.
 
303DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 10:41
I wish I had artistic ability. I'd draw an awesome political cartoon with a big circus-size tent. Inside the tent would be a bunch of empty seats and Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter telling each other "Get out." "No, you." "No, YOU."

Feel free to run with it.
 
304Perm Dude
      ID: 21453619
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 11:27
OK, you know things are tough for the GOP when Joe the Plumber leaves the party
 
305Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 12:24
Joe the Plumber rivals Paris Hilton in both need for attention and intellect.
 
306Boxman
      ID: 29351011
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 13:24
My understanding is that Joe The Plumber was/is buying a business and was a rather good plumber in his own right.

What the hell have you done with your life by comparison?
 
308Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 13:40
My understanding is that

Par for the course re: your typical understanding of things.

He was lying when he stepped up to those cameras and told Obama and the world that he is a plumber, unless you consider people without plumbers' licenses in jurisdictions in which a license is necessary to be a plumber to be, in fact, plumbers.

He was a plumbers' helper - but this is useful information for the right, since he worked a job that could likely have been otherwise filled by day laborers.

He was also lying (or delusional) when he said he was getting ready to buy his boss' business, since the check of his tax records (specifically, the lien on his house for unpaid back taxes) and the the fact that he made all of $40,000 in 2006 indicates that he was in no position to purchase the company, which he claimed made $250,000.00 - $280,000.00.

Razor, do you really think you'll be able to match up to a middle-aged unlicensed plumber's helper with a middle class income who doesn't pay his taxes with a lien on his property and a natural penchant for telling unscripted lies about himself to the media and presidential candidates the very moment he stepped in fromt of a camera?
 
309boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 14:03
the the fact that he made all of $40,000 in 2006 i would take that for being just a helper.

 
310Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 14:17
I figure if he gets some OT at time & a half, his day-rate is probably maybe 20% better than the average day laborer.
 
311Perm Dude
      ID: 19424713
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 14:24
All of which is beside the point. Boxman seems to be of the mind that Joe should be above criticism for being a media whore.
 
312Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 14:25
DWetzel #303

This is the best I could do for you on short notice:

 
313Seattle Zen
      ID: 57432710
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 14:27
Until he shows he's capable of contributing a meaningful post without personal attacks, I'd suggest we ignore the troll in post 306.
 
314boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 14:34
I figure if he gets some OT at time & a half, his day-rate is probably maybe 20% better than the average day laborer.

why does the average day labor make more than the average teacher?

re:312 good stuff, interesting site.
 
315DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 14:36
#312: *love*
 
316Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 14:40
Around here they make $75 - $100/day. OK so maybe the day laborer comparison is a touch harsh.

But he's not a licensed plumber. I recall that when the media looked into it, they found that something like 5 of the 7 counties in his area require a license for him to practice plumbing, including the county in which the business is based. If I remember correctly, that means he can't go to a job in those counties unless he is with a licensed plumber.

Of course PD is correct in #311 in saying that this is all aside from the point.
 
317Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 14:41
I fear I have unleashed a terrible blight upon the forum.
 
318Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 15:15
that is the greatest site ever. i promise to wield this power with care.
 
319boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 15:27
that is the greatest site ever. i promise to wield this power with care.

can you just animate your posts from now on...
 
320WiddleAvi
      Sustainer
      ID: 361032112
      Thu, May 07, 2009, 19:32
 
321Frick
      ID: 4945458
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 09:00
I'm hoping that the GOP keeps going down the conservative christian road. Hopefully eventually there will be enough of a middle ground to support a 3rd party and the two party system can be broken.

So, I guess radical christians do have an upside.
 
322Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 10:19
No argument here. And I'd take no issue with seeing the Dems similarly split apart.

However the short term impact could be that there will be no functioning political opposition to the Dem-controlled executive and legislative branches. Obviously that's pretty close to what we have currently so maybe it's only a consideration if you believe the GOP can get it's act together any more quickly than a viable 3rd party could begin to emerge.
 
323Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 10:48
"We have to reshape our message, reduce the decibel level -- we're too doggone shrill -- and be less judgmental about the people in the party that may disagree with us."

"Our message became shrill. We became very divided over these social issues, and at some point in time, we'll have to be a lot less judgmental."

"It's the notion of: let's accept certain differences of opinion and understand that these are principled people who disagree with you. And let's treat them with greater civility and respect, than, frankly, we have in the past."
 
324Perm Dude
      ID: 33417810
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 11:22
Maybe they need a Therapy Buddy.

I can just see Glen Beck clicking on the "Hear My Voice" link over an over during the course of the day.
 
325Frick
      ID: 4945458
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 11:45
I think it is possible, while Ross Perot was laughed at when he attempted it. I think part of the laughter was do marginalize the attempt.

I mainly want an end to the 2 party system. I'm tired of everything being black and white with no room in the middle. With more than 2 parties we might see actual compromise and some middle ground being found.

I would also prefer to see less national government and more local, but sadly I don't see that happening without major changes (aka a revolution.)
 
326Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 11:47
Dick Cheney radio interview yesterday:
Hennen: Some people are wringing their hands saying, “This is an example of why the party needs to change, to hear the message of Specter,” that, as Colin Powell said, the Republican Party needs to moderate. Do you think the Republican Party needs to moderate? Is that the message of the Specter defection, or the state of the party these days?

Cheney: No I don’t. I think it would be a mistake for us to moderate. This is about fundamental beliefs and values and ideas ... what the role of government should be in our society, and our commitment to the Constitution and Constitutional principles. You know, when you add all those things up the idea that we ought to moderate basically means we ought to fundamentally change our philosophy. I for one am not prepared to do that, and I think most us aren’t. Most Republicans have a pretty good idea of values, and aren’t eager to have someone come along and say, “Well, the only way you can win is if you start to act more like a Democrat.” I really think we go through these cycles periodically Scott, and I’ve been through them before.
Mr. Cheney should have a talk with Mr. Ridge.
 
327Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 15:01
Yeah you are right, I was wrong. Conservatives should partially give up our principles.

We should allow democrats to partially rewrite the constitution.

We should roll over and rubber stamp judges who will rewrite the constitution. Just so the media won't call us too partisan.

It's been going on my whole lifetime

We should partially give up our right to free speech and give up our right to hear talk radio.

In the works

We should only have the right to comment about politicians during elections some of the time.

Done

...If we are allowed on the media which we won't be.

Partially implimented, partially in the works

We should accept ruinous fines and job firings for 'speech crimes'.

Partially implimented, partially in the works

We should accept that we don't have a right to pass on our religious principles to our children...

...and we should raise our illegitimate grandkids because our children only have partial responsibility and morality and too often won't.

Look around you.

We should accept the premise that every law or policy we like is only temporary and any law or policy based on marxist principles is permanent.

It's been going on my whole lifetime

We should partially accept that liberals should have total control over what we eat, what we breath, where we live, how we commute, what jobs we get to have, what we say, what we think, who lives in our house, who raises our kids, who our children turn out to be, when and whether we get medical treatment and whether we get to eat and drink at all...

Just come out and say it!

When we all agree that you are god, we'll all get along just fine.

Yeah, just bend over a little.

Thanks for the advice but no thanks.
 
328Perm Dude
      ID: 33417810
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 15:20
Black and white, eh?

We should accept that we don't have a right to pass on our religious principles to our children.

You know, for you, paranoia does become you.
 
329Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 15:30
Yes yes we know the drill. Every last leftist proposal is extrapolated great lengths beyond their intent and even well beyond logic itself rightly allows, straight to the most sinsiter, insidious scenerio imaginable by the most paranoid.
 
330Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 16:12
We should accept that we don't have a right to pass on our religious principles to our children.

That is written in black and white in UN documents.

You say it's paranoia today and you will be the biggest cheerleader of this tomorrow.

"You are grounded. No you may not go over to Jimmy's house and screw in his bedroom all evening."
2. States Parties shall take all appropriate measures to ensure that the child is protected against all forms of discrimination or punishment on the basis of the status, activities, expressed opinions, or beliefs of the child's parents, legal guardians, or family members.
Yes, you are getting out of bed and going to church with the family...
Recognizing that the United Nations has, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and in the International Covenants on Human Rights, proclaimed and agreed that everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth therein, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status...
No you may not go over to Jenny's house. Her friends have a habit of disappearing...

No you may not go on a three day unsupervised spree with your prom date...
1. States Parties recognize the rights of the child to freedom of association
I installed a pornography filter on you computer...
1. No child shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his or her privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to unlawful attacks on his or her honour and reputation.
 
331Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 16:47
Personally, I'm not he least bit interested in your cherrypicked out-of-context excerpts from that document. But I will note that posts 327 and 330 could not possibly be any more favorably illustrative of precisly the position I take on the issue of whether moderates belong and should be welcomed in the Republican party - and whether the party - and the country - is better off with or without their presence in the GOP.

And Baldwin's contribution to the discussion is that hard-line Republicans must keep the moderates out of the GOP or they will rewrite the Constitution, ban talk radio, criminalize religion and strip away legal parental authority.

I don't believe any of my political positions has ever been so powerfully supported by a couple of Boldwin posts.
 
332Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 16:54
Of course your opinion on that matter are as relevent as mine are about whether marxists should allow old school pre-1968 democrats into their 'big tent'.
 
333Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 17:02
You are still a non-voter who's religious faith requires him to be apolitical, right?

Assuming so, I'd say my opinion has yours beat on the "relevance" scale for both parties.
 
334Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 17:13
Who do you think cares?
 
335Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 17:15
Call the leader of the republican party immediately and let him know, for goodness sake. I am sure he is hanging on tenterhooks to find out what you think.
 
336Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 18:29
The question of relevance is obviously not an issue I agree with Mr. limbaugh on. If you've read a fraction of my posts, you already know this. It's kind of the point.

Lets remember - I'm the one calling for the party to return to the success of the Reagan Revolution.

You're the one mocking his big tent. The party you want has already been accurately depicted in post 312.
 
337Perm Dude
      ID: 33417810
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 20:32
#330: The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child actually says the exact opposite of what you think it does.

This is not surprising. You spend an awful lot of time looking for things to be outraged about. Taking things out of context is par for the course.

And (again) you insist on making the GOP drift about Al Gore. Or the UN. Or about code words.
 
338Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 21:58
The devil is in the details and we know their true leanings.

Yes they say the opposite and then create the tools to do exactly what I said. It's a tactic Obama uses all the time. Disarm the opposition, tell them what they want to hear, and then clobber them just like everyone expected.

For example, Obama is happy to say he supports a constitutional right to bear arms, and we all know he has no intention of appointing judges who feel that way.

For example we all know Obama is for gay marriage. Gay activists allow him to pose on the fence, because they know for sure he is on their side and will appoint judges who will do their dirty work for him.

The UN says they support families while they are yanking the rug out from under them.

 
339Perm Dude
      ID: 33417810
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 22:02
Yes they say the opposite and then create the tools to do exactly what I said.

So you have no proof. You cite the UN (which says that children may not be attacked because of their parents' religious beliefs) as an example of the opposite of what it says. Because you believe that when "liberals" say A, they really mean Not A, so A is actually proof of Not A.

You've got nothing. Literally.
 
340Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 22:04
I've got the tools to tear your family apart right there in the UN's hands.
 
341Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 22:06
Unless you think handing your kids over to them is a good thing. And you will.
 
342DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, May 08, 2009, 22:29
Cue up the Billy Madison video, please.
 
343Perm Dude
      ID: 26439108
      Mon, May 11, 2009, 23:52
Charlie Crist running for Senate

I hope he gets the nod. Given the sad state of the GOP, the only way I can see to save the party (and allow a range of conservative voices on the national stage) is to hope for the success of the moderate GOP member campaigns.

Nothing breed success like success, as the Democrats found out when a moderate Southern Governor (Clinton) ran, won, and dominated Democratic politics for 10 years.
 
344Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 00:26
You would be psyched by the candidacy of one of the corrupt forces who worked tirelessly to murder Terri Schiavo.
 
345Perm Dude
      ID: 26439108
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 00:34
You marginalize yourself more and more with each post you make, Baldwin.
 
346Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 00:41
Are you disputing that Crist was a bigtime supporter of denying Terri Schiavo a drink of water. Until she died.

Or are you bragging about the fact that euthanazia has gone mainstream?

 
347Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 01:52
PD - he'll never make it to the election. CINOs (That's "Christians In Name Only") like Baldwin will make the most of the homosexual rumours what swirl around Crist and doom his campaign.

Or are you bragging about the fact that euthanazia (sic) has gone mainstream?

yea man, that is some boffo stuff, eh? all those hipsters in Williamsburg, taking each other off life support because it's so cool, man.

and down in Mayberry, RFD, they done let Opie starve to death while he was on life support after Tommy from Flipper kicked his butt.

coast to coast, border to border, euthanasia has gone main stream! birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it!

Baldwin's posts get more and more surreal.
 
348Perm Dude
      ID: 26439108
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 02:03
Crist didn't deny anything, except the wild-eyed misguided attempts to have him overstep the bounds of his office by people who still believe that the doctored video of Schiavo was her actually reacting with her shriveled brain.

I realize you have a hate-hate relationship with science, but Schiavo was brain dead. Had been for years.
 
349Pancho Villa
      ID: 24271117
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 02:06
one of the corrupt forces who worked tirelessly to murder Terri Schiavo.

This from the person who claims emotionalism is a flaw of the political left. Pot, meet....
 
350Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 09:20
Jon Stewart on the right's overblown reaction to Wanda Sykes at the White House Correspondant Dinner:
"bad jokes and gay marriage are destroying this country, but torture can save it."
 
351Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 10:38
Terri had professional brain scanners like the blogger at Codeblue who is a fulltime brain scan interpreter on her side...

...But Tree, PD and the euthanazia lobby had scientiologist George Felos and his hand picked doctors against her.

Terri had cutting edge doctors doing wonders with the brain damaged, on Terri's side...

...but socialized medicine is just too expensive if we extend it to everyone, so Terri had to die. And you, when they find it convenient.

 
352Perm Dude
      ID: 26439108
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 10:45
You didn't read the autopsy reports did you? Hard to do with your head in the sand, but try it sometime.

I realize that you believe your pride is on the line here--you simply believe yourself unable to back down after staking out such a strong position.

But it Jesus teaches us anything it is that pride is a sin.
 
353Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 11:47
PD - we've already seen here that Baldwin follows Jesus' teachings about as much as i do.

i don't know that Baldwin has ever backed off an issue, no matter what mountain of proof there is that he's wrong...his stances are so extremist, and usually easy enough to disprove when a talented researcher like MITH gets involved, but he can't see the forest for the trees.


 
354bibA
      ID: 104311115
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 12:42
Soros had bought and rigged the coroner long before the autopsy.
 
355Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 13:16
i'm pretty sure Soros released some sort of magical poison into the air in the Schiavo home on the day she became sick.
 
356SeattleZen on Vashon
      ID: 46411018
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 14:21
Soros had bought and rigged the coroner long before the
autopsy.


LMAO!
 
357DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 16:49
The legendary Michael Steele speaks again:

Republican base 'has problems with Mormonism'
 
358Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, May 12, 2009, 23:02
I read the entire +100 page coroner's report that was made up months later.

Really all you needed to do was read the enzyme test result that showed that she did not have a heart attack, to see the official version of events was bogus.

Or look at her broken body bone scans riddled by abuse from her husband.

Or ask the six nurses who paid the price of losing their jobs to tell you she was not braindead and was responsive.

Or you could have taken the word of a professional brain scan reader at Codeblue.

Or you could have considered the word of over 50 doctors willing to testify in court that she was not PVS.

Or you could have considered why the forces of euthanazia in this case refused to allow MRI's

In the course of my conversation with Dr. Morin, he made reference to the standard use of MRI and PET (Positron Emission Tomography) scans to diagnose the extent of brain injuries. He seemed to assume that these had been done for Terri. I stopped him and told him that these tests have never been done for her; that Michael had refused them.

There was a moment of dead silence.

“That’s criminal,” he said, and then asked, in a tone of utter incredulity: “How can he continue as guardian? People are deliberating over this woman’s life and death and there’s been no MRI or PET?” He drew a reasonable conclusion: “These people [Michael Schiavo, George Felos, and Judge Greer] don’t want the information.”

Or you could have considered that she had “NORMAL” CT’s of the brain on 2/25 and 2/27 and inexplicably took an extreme turn for the worse by 2/30. You might connect the dots to the testimony of nurses who testified Micheal had tried to kill her by injections later on.

Or you could have considered the FDLE agents who felt Micheal Schiavo should have been held criminally liable. And who were shut down by a corrupt Bernie McCabe.

Or you could wonder why Michael pled for funds to rehabilitate her and then a month after the award ordered that she be refused all care.

Or you could wonder why both a lawyer and a doctor in that case tried hard to get Michael charged with murder.

 
359Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, May 13, 2009, 00:51
or you could live in the world of reality...
 
360Perm Dude
      ID: 354361211
      Wed, May 13, 2009, 09:31
Baldwin has to deal with Schiavo facts second and third hand, because the first hand information (such as the autopsy doctor who looked at her actual brain) refute everything he says.

Schiavo had, essentially, no cerebral cortex. Sad, but true.
 
361Perm Dude
      ID: 444471510
      Fri, May 15, 2009, 21:28
Only 37% of Republicans believe their party is leaderless, but what do you call it when they all pick different leaders?

Ladies and Gentlemen, your GOP Leaders!:

John McCain: 18%
Michael Steele: 14%
Sarah Palin: 10%
Mitt Romney: 8%
Rush Limbaugh: 6%
Dick Cheney: 4%
 
362Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Sat, May 16, 2009, 06:20
or you could live in the world of reality... - Tree

That would require thotfully looking at the evidence which you aren't willing to do.

because the first hand information (such as the autopsy doctor who looked at her actual brain) refute everything he says. - PD

The brain scan reader at codeblue could see the size of Terri's brain just as the autopsy doctor could see the size of the damage.
I've watched a steady stream of neurologists, bioethicists, and neurologist/bioethicists from Columbia, Cornell, and NYU interviewed all week on Fox and CNN and MSNBC. They all said about the same thing, that Terri's CT scan was "the worst they'd ever seen"or "as bad as they've ever seen."

Here's the problem with these experts: THEY DON'T INTERPRET CT SCANS OF THE BRAIN. RADIOLOGISTS DO.

What I'm saying is that Terri Schiavo's CT could be the brain of an eighty or ninety year old person who is not in a vegetative state. THOSE are the CT scans we should be showing next to Schiavo's, because in THAT case you would see similar atrophy and a brain much closer to Schiavo's.

Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?

To prove my point I am offering $100,000 on a $25,000 wager for ANY neurologist (and $125,000 for any neurologist/bioethicist) involved in Terri Schiavo's case--including all the neurologists reviewed on television and in the newspapers who can accurately single out PVS patients from functioning patients with better than 60% accuracy on CT scans.

I will provide 100 single cuts from 100 different patient's brain CT's. All the neurologist has to do is say which ones represent patients with PVS and which do not.

If the neurologist can be right 6 out of 10 times he wins the $100,000.


I Said What I Meant, And I Meant What I Said

My points are what I first said about the image from Terri Schiavo's CT scan:

1) It is NOT as bad as the neurologists and bioethicists play it up to be; and,

2) There are many elderly patients with various levels of mental functioning who have severe atrophy that is difficult to distinguish from Terri Schiavo's atrophy

I stand by what I said. And I'm putting my money where my mouth is.


Hope even for Tree...
"There's a young student at this university," says Lorber, "who has an IQ of 126, has gained a first-class honors degree in mathematics, and is socially completely normal. And yet the boy has virtually no brain." The student's physician at the university noticed that the youth had a slightly larger than normal head, and so referred him to Lorber, simply out of interest. "When we did a brain scan on him," Lorber recalls, "we saw that instead of the normal 4.5-centimeter thickness of brain tissue between the ventricles and the cortical surface, there was just a thin layer of mantle measuring a millimeter or so. His cranium is filled mainly with cerebrospinal fluid" (Lewin 1980:1232).
 
363Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, May 16, 2009, 10:58
GOP Introduces 2010 'Year of the Bible'
Members of the House of Representatives have introduced a resolution seeking to declare 2010 as "The Year of the Bible."

The bill was introduced last week by Rep. Paul Broun [perhaps best known for having compared President Obama to Hitler -Steve Bensen] a Republican from Georgia, and co-sponsored by 13 other Republicans.

The bill states , among other things, that "the Bible has inspired acts of patriotism that have unified Americans, commemorated through shared celebrations such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Day, Presidents Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and Christmas."

The bill seeks to have the president designate 2010 as the Year of the Bible and "to issue a proclamation calling upon citizens of all faiths to rediscover and apply the priceless, timeless message of the Holy Scripture which has profoundly influenced and shaped the United States and its great democratic form of Government."

President Ronald Reagan proclaimed 1983 as Year of the Bible.
Steve Bensen again:
I've never understood about efforts like these, not only because the truly faithful tend to think the Bible doesn't need help from politicians in the House of Representatives, but also because the symbolic gesture is necessarily fleeting. In 2010 is declared by Congress to be "The Year of the Bible," what's 2011? Or 2012? For those who take scripture seriously, isn't every year the "Year of the Bible," whether it's declared by officials in Washington or not?

Broun's resolution has been forwarded to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, where it will likely be ignored.
 
364Frick
      ID: 4945458
      Tue, May 19, 2009, 08:46
That will help win over some of the moderates that the Republican's have been bleeding off.

 
365Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, May 19, 2009, 10:37
i think 2011 will be the year of the Nehru Jacket.
 
366DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, May 19, 2009, 10:56
What, not the year of the Quran?
 
367Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, May 19, 2009, 11:03
He saves that until after he's his secured second term re-election.

Then it's public madrassas in every city and free flight school training (sans the chapter on landing procedures) for every graduate.
 
368Seattle Zen
      ID: 234181910
      Tue, May 19, 2009, 12:44
Then it's public madrassas in every city

Finally, the madrassas around here are fu@king expensive!
 
369Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, May 19, 2009, 19:54
Arm and a leg?
 
370Seattle Zen
      ID: 204102011
      Wed, May 20, 2009, 13:12
Arm and a leg?

Yes, of an infidel, of course.

It's a strange society that uses bloody body parts for currency. The rate of deflation depends on how much space you have in your freezer!
 
371Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, May 20, 2009, 17:12
John McCain may have managed to figure out how to send and receive his own email in time to assure the voters he was up on all the newfangled techno-whozits, but getting Newt Gingrich to understand the art of the tweet is probably way too much to ask.
 
372Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 09:31
ahh, what a Rush...

"I challenge you, MSNBC! Thirty days without anything mentioning me. No video of me, no guests commenting on me. See if you can do it ... Let's see if you can do Rush withdrawal. Let's see if you can run your little TV network for 30 days without doing a single story on me, and then let's take a look at your ratings during those 30 days and see what happens.

but within the article, is this exchange.

Earlier this month, Limbaugh took aim at former Secretary of State Colin Powell, telling him to "become a Democrat, instead of claiming to be a Republican." Cheney joined the fray, remarking (on Limbaugh's radio show, of all places):

" ... my take on it was Colin had already left the party. I didn't know he was still a Republican."

Powell fired back at Cheney and Limbaugh last night, telling an audience in Boston that there was room for him in "another version of the Republican Party waiting to emerge once again."

Rush, being Rush, responded on his show Wednesday, saying "The only thing emerging here is Colin Powell's ego. Colin Powell represents the stale, the old, the worn-out GOP that never won anything."


perhaps Rush doesn't see the irony in remarking about someone else's ego when he's telling an entire network that the mere mention of his name is what drives their ratings.

never mind the fact that Rush's version of the Republican party is what is driving them to rapid irrelevance, while Powell's vision is probably the only thing that can save them.
 
373Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 10:44
Powell didn't even vote for the republican he recommended for their nomination.

Seriously there can't be anyone stupid enuff to take your advice on this subject.

 
374Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 11:16
and Obama hasn't appointed only democrats for positions in government. doesn't make him any less of a democrat.

and quite frankly, Mr. CINO, don't sit in your high chair calling anyone stupid. when it comes to politics and religion, and your actions and words in both of those arenas, you don't have a leg to stand on.

your comments over the last year have showed you to be a fraud as a religious man, and a paranoid, hate- and delusion-filled man.

i won't go as far to call you stupid, because, quite frankly, i don't know you. but if i were to read your posts over the last year, like i said, i'd think you were paranoid, delusional, and hateful.
 
375Boxman
      ID: 104121111
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 13:29
Blah blah blah from Treetard.

 
376Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 14:26
Please leave, Boxman.
 
377Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 15:11
Direction of the GOP:

Attacking Obama for his criticism of American slavery?
 
378Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 15:17
The Democratic Party's #1 recruitment officer:
"I'm just gonna tell you, if I was named envoy to Haiti, I'd quit government. Envoy to Haiti? You can't even pick up a prostitute down there without genuine fear of AIDS."
Baldwin wants to know; does anyone believe there is a conservative anywhere who has a problem with Rush setting the tone?
 
379 Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 17:08
Boxman - this is the only time i'm going to address your horse$hit attempts at trolling.

if you've got a problem with me, fine. i can live with that. but don't ruin this board for everyone else.

my email address is above. if you've got something to say to me, say it there.

 
380Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 17:18
I'm sure Boxman is too much of a pussy to so directly deal with anyone, even after a public challenge. And it wouldn't do anything to support his juvenile attention craving, anyway.

It doesn't even matter to him that every one of these troll posts is seen by every single reader of this forum as another concession that this board - even so diminished from it's heyday - is simply over his head.

I think he probably gave in to that notion on the day I had to literally articulate his own argument for him and then point out the flaws within, and all he could respond with was something to the effect of, "you said it better than I could."
 
381Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 18:50
The difference is that when Boxman isn't descending to Tree's level, he makes great posts. Occasionally brilliant. It is hard to resist falling to the lowest common denominator. I encourage the effort, Boxman.
 
382Razor
      ID: 583182923
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 18:57
Kind of an indictment of your own ability to say that Boxman's posts are generally great and occasionally brilliant.

Bring back mbj, Madman and Toral.
 
383Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 19:20
Olbermann responds to Rush!


Olbermann said Wednesday night that Limbaugh had "suddenly gone all Greta Garbo on us. He wants to be left alone. He has surrendered."

"Suddenly, the impact of being accurately called out, day after day, hour after hour, as a faux populist, press-release regurgitating lackey of repressive and regressive political flunkeys has hit bone," Olbermann said.

Olbermann said Limbaugh had no business being able to decide how people react to him.

"You built this little world," he said. "Either man up and live through the bad press, or get out."

He said he'd agree to the prohibition "provided you go 30 days on your program without mentioning what has been done or said or boasted about by Rush Limbaugh. Hannity would last longer on the waterboard."
 
384Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 20:31
when Boxman isn't descending to Tree's level, he makes great posts. Occasionally brilliant.

Show me his most recent brilliant post. How about any reletively recent post? Just one. There sure hasn't been a lot of brilliance around these parts in some time, so you should be able to recall and find a truly brilliant post pretty easily, right?

Please, show the lurkers how foolish I am to criticize him.

Just one brilliant post authored by Boxman to shut me the hell up.

If he's "occasionally brilliant" you must have a few in mind, right? Lets see the most recent.
 
385Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 21:01
Oh and for the record the differences between Boxman and Tree are that more often than not tree has to be provoked into troll behavior and that with the exception of his antagonists (hint: B&B) tree usually responds at least fairly amicably to people who call him out for bad behavior.

Boxman, on the other hand, more often than not comes here for the sole purpose of antagonizing others - unprovoked - and then leaves.

In every thread in which one of his posts in in the "50 most recent", he is the primary reason for why no one wants to contribute.

He's trying to sink the forum. But he votes Republican so you will never criticize his behavior, while Tree can't even attempt a serious argument here without you telling him how stupid he is.
 
386Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 23:11
37 Boxman ID: 571114225 Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 12:27 I must've missed the 12 UN resolutions condemning this specific act of piracy before we "went it alone", acted unilaterally and without approval from the UN Security Council.

I don't want the proof of piracy to emerge in the form of a mushroom cloud coming from the hull of a sinking ship, but I don't want this cowboy diplomacy either.

Obomba just created 1,000 more pirates.

38 Boxman ID: 571114225 Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 12:32 No blood for cheap imported Chinese goods.

43 Boxman ID: 571114225 Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 14:56 One man's pirate is another's freedom fighter.

All brilliant, and if you don't understand why it is because you can lead a liberal to a mirror but you can't make him recognize himself. [It's a test they run on animals and some animals can even do it]

 
387Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 23:24
LOL

The temptation I can't resist is to point out that your standard for brilliance might be a touch lower than a few hours ago when you typed, "posing sardonically as someone without a clue, is considerably less funny when you actually have no clue".

But you say it is so and I'm but a pathetic liberal who when dressing forgets which limbs to pass through my pant legs. So be it. Boxman is brilliant! And really, who knew?

Hopefully it is a wise choice for him to accept my humble apology for ever doubting him, for then I surely will be forgiven!
 
388Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 23:39
nothing really newsworthy, nor shocking, here.

Cheney's speech contained omissions, misstatements
 
389Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, May 21, 2009, 23:44


i still love boondocks. several years later, this one cracks me up.
 
390Razor
      ID: 583182923
      Fri, May 22, 2009, 00:08
Re: 386 - post 382
 
391Boldwin
      ID: 133532810
      Fri, May 22, 2009, 03:24
I can do without head-up-the-butt cartoons however.
 
392Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, May 22, 2009, 07:11
Sure wish you'd occasionally show the respect for him and teh forum to let him know once in a while. Might be the only thing that makes a difference. Lord knows he doesn't respond to me nearly as well as tree does.

You recently had what I believe is your first ever public disagreement with him over a discussion topic in the 3 years he's been posting here. Perhaps you are ready to take the next step?
 
393Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, May 22, 2009, 08:32
a tale of two governors...

Rick Perry won't accept stimulus money for the unemployed, but hey, look, lets take some of that stimulus money to repair the governor's mansion ...

and then there's the esteemed ms. Palin...

Gov. Sarah Palin on Thursday became the only governor to turn down federal stimulus money for energy efficiency, a move that legislators called "disappointing" for a state with some of the country's highest energy costs.
 
394Perm Dude
      ID: 174121611
      Fri, May 22, 2009, 09:49
Palin has a history of publicly saying she'll turn down the stimulus money, but then accepting it anyway. Like a lot of red state governors, they are too used to sucking at Washington's teat to turn down more money. Oh, they'll try to sooth their based with posturing. But that's all it is.
 
395boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, May 22, 2009, 09:54
I can understand Perry's decsion to not take the aid, but Palins makes no sense.
 
396Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, May 22, 2009, 11:33
Mark Levin's book, Liberty and Tyranny has been #1 on the NYT Hardcover Nonfiction Best Sellers list since it debuted the week of April 3rd.

The American Scene posts a transcribed excerpt from Levin's radio show yesterday:
CALLER: I just wanna say, Obama is a lot smarter than you folks give him credit for. You guys were on a roll, I have to admit, with all those tea parties. Everything was rolling along, the Republicans were gaining momentum. And he managed to change your entire conversational focus. And you let those three hundred thousand people —

LEVIN: My God. He’s so smart. His own party voted against him on Guantanamo Bay. How stupid was that, Cindy? His own party refused to fund the closing of Guantanamo Bay.

CALLER. Yeah but you know he can just move those people over here anyway. He’s already doing it with the one guy.

LEVIN: Yeah, sure, he can do whatever he wants. Let me ask you a question. Why do you hate this country?

CALLER: No, I love this country.

LEVIN: (angrily shouting) I SAID WHY DO YOU HATE MY COUNTRY! WHY DO YOU HATE MY CONSTITUTION? WHY DO YOU HATE MY DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE?

You just said it. He can blow off Congress. He can do whatever he wants, right?

CALLER: Well, he seems to, he just moved (inaudible).

LEVIN: Answer me this, are you a married woman? Yes or no?

CALLER: Yes.

LEVIN: Well I don’t know why your husband doesn’t put a gun to his temple. Get the hell out of here.
 
397Perm Dude
      ID: 174121611
      Fri, May 22, 2009, 11:39
Had a guy on Tuesday try to give me his book. I almost threw it back at him.

After talking with him, at least I got the guy to agree that people like Levin are not all that good at conveying the conservative message.

Baby steps, I guess.
 
398Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, May 22, 2009, 11:48
Dana Goldstein at The American Prospect on Levin (click through for links):
And this isn't Levin's first foray into crude sexism. When the military provided Nancy Pelosi with a jet for secure travel between California and Washington, D.C., Levin falsely claimed Pelosi demanded the plane because "she's the first woman speaker. She wants a really, really big one. ... And if she doesn't get it, well then that's sexual discrimination." In fact, Pelosi is second in the line of succession to the presidency. A military escort is routine for any Speaker of the House.

On a separate occasion, Levin said of Pelosi, "You could bounce a dime off her cheeks. The woman has had so many face-lifts." He has referred to Hillary Clinton as "Her Thighness" and to NOW as "the National Organization of Ugly Women."

And they wonder why women are trending left...
 
399Tree
      ID: 51457238
      Sat, May 23, 2009, 15:23
the RNC continues its course...

RNC's below-the-belt shot at Pelosi

The RNC video, which begins with the speaker’s head in the iconic (James Bond) gun sight, implies that Pelosi has used her feminine wiles to dodge the truth about whether or not she was briefed by the CIA on the use of waterboarding in 2002. While the P-word is never mentioned directly, in one section the speaker appears in a split screen alongside the Bond nemesis (Pussy Galore) – and the video’s tagline is “Democrats Galore.”

The wisdom of equating the first woman speaker of the House with a character whose first name also happens to be among the most vulgar terms for a part of the female anatomy might be debated – if the RNC were willing to do so, which it was not. An RNC spokesperson refused repeated requests by POLITICO to explain the point of the video, or the intended connection between Pelosi and Galore.

But what isn’t open to debate is that the waterboarding conflict has been accompanied by a cascade of attacks on the speaker, not as a leader or a legislator, but as a woman.
 
400Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Sat, May 23, 2009, 15:28
Liberty University bans Democratic Club

Apparently, those social justice fools in the Democratic Party are too un-Christian for these folks.
 
401Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, May 28, 2009, 18:45
Re: 399:

RNC asserts copyright to remove Pelosi video
The Republican National Committee yesterday removed a controversial video comparing Nancy Pelosi to Bond girl Pussy Galore from its YouTube account.

Today, the RNC asserted its copyright to the video to remove any trace of it from YouTube, asking the service to take a copy of the video down from the account of a Politico reader who had reposted it.

"This is to notify you that we have removed or disabled access to the following material as a result of a third-party notification by Republican National Committee claiming that this material is infringing," says the e-mail from YouTube, forwarded to me by the reader.

An RNC spokesman yesterday wouldn't explain why the committee took the video down.
 
402Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Jun 09, 2009, 10:13
A little historical revsion sure goes a long way when you're sowing the seeds of obstructionism.



Way to keep your guests honest, Wallace.
 
403Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Jun 10, 2009, 11:07
GOP Congressman to China: Don't believe the Administration's budget numbers

Nice.
 
404Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Wed, Jun 10, 2009, 11:12
Nothing to see here - just some light treason.
 
405Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jun 11, 2009, 12:27
New GOP phrase for detainee abuse photos: "Terrorist propaganda photos"

Uh, yeah--that's one of the points why we shouldn't abuse prisoners.
 
406Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Jun 15, 2009, 14:42
South Carolina Republican activist kinda apologizes for calling Michelle Obama's ancestor's gorillas. Then blames her for it.

Oh dear. I don't even know where to start with this one.
 
408Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Jun 16, 2009, 11:14
What in the hell is wrong with these people?

Is it really still so ingrained in the culture of the party that so desperately needs to free itself of it's not-so-distant pro-racist legacy that there will always be prominant members who just can't help themselves?
 
409Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, Jun 16, 2009, 15:32
MITH -

i'm not trying to make excuses, but to me, it really is a "old south thang".

there is something so ingrained in the culture of the south, that this sort of thing seems funny and not at all offensive, and comments that seem insensitive to me seem like off-handed comments to those who say them.

take my mom for example. she's a dyed-in-the-wool Jewish New York Liberal. in the late 60s, went door to door in bad neighborhoods, doing the social work thing. taught me to love all, to be open minded, and to appreciate my freedoms.

but she's also lived in Texas for the last 35 years. she says things that bewilder me, things like "i don't understand why these mexicans who are laying my carpet for $3.00 an hour can't just learn english so i could tell them what to do better," or "as full disclosure, the woman who you're interviewing with tomorrow is black. i just thought you should know that."

i don't understand why statements like that are even necessary, but they exist. the south has a racist past that goes back generations, and it's only now that the younger generations - from mine and more recently - are starting to leave that past behind.
 
410Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 01:51
Congressional GOP: Being against Bush's military budgets was anti-troop thinking, while being against Obama's is good fiscal policy. Or something. We know only that the Democrats are to blame for some reason here.
 
411Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 13:18
From another South Carolina Republican operative:

 
412Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Jun 17, 2009, 15:20
sheesh.
 
413Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jun 18, 2009, 15:02
Re 406: A better apology here.

Good.
 
414Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 01:17
Michael Steele is still representing...
 
415Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 06:07
OBAMA [audiotape]: I’ve made a firm commitment that health care reform will not add to the federal budget deficit over the next decade.

PD, are you so stupid that you actually think Obama is telling the truth there?

Oh sure, the government will just take that hospital bill mr. citizen....what? You ask won't that make government more expensive? Why no, I'll just pull that out my wazzoo and you won't experience any expense at all.
 
416biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 08:37
Uh...

"...the government will just take that hospital bill mr. citizen..."

That's in essence what is being done now, Baldwin. In the most expensive way imaginable (ER visits).

You don't think we can do that more cheaply?

Now, given that those with chronic, expensive health care problems with be dumped into the gov't sponsored system, I think keeping it cheap is going to be difficult, but it can't be worse than what we are currently doing.
 
417Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 10:48
#415: The point of that link was Mr. Steele's incompetence. This is like you saying that Obama actually didn't say what he said, then apologizing for making the mistake, then claiming that you didn't apologize.

As for the actual numbers, I'll leave it between you and Google as to whether Obama claims he's found the numbers. Meanwhile, (pdf): The United States ranks 37th in health care costs (exactly where Big Medicine wants it to be), 72nd in health level, and #1 (woo hoo!) in per capita health care costs

Keep defending your freedom to be overcharged, while others go without health care entirely. How Would Jesus Flog the Healthcare Debate?
 
418Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 14:59
"...the government will just take that hospital bill mr. citizen..." - B

That's in essence what is being done now, Baldwin. In the most expensive way imaginable (ER visits). - PD


AFAIK the government isn't paying any emergency room visits. They are extorting the hospitals to absorb the cost of not turning away emergency cases at ER's, as the price for receiving other government reimbursments [for unrelated care in unrelated cases].

You don't think we can do that more cheaply? - PD

Heck no. It may not be ethical but it's a free lunch, unfunded mandate from the government perspective.
 
419Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 15:00
Where it gets expensive is regular patients getting overcharged to cover ER costs.
 
420Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 15:27
Exactly Obama's point. We have an inefficient delivery system limited to a smaller number of people (mostly, because people got used to getting health care through their jobs and their employers picking up the tab). The the real cost of the uninsured are passed to the insured in one way or another. You damn well know that for-profit insurance companies and hospitals are not going to suck up the costs without passing as much as they can along to others.
 
421Razor
      ID: 371502414
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 16:45
Heck no. It may not be ethical but it's a free lunch, unfunded mandate from the government perspective.

We end up paying one way or another. Surely that is obvious. May as well do it up front in a way that eliminates efficiency.
 
422Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 18:18
May as well do it up front in a way that eliminates efficiency - PD describing the introduction of socialized medicine.

 
423Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 18:33
It also describes efficiently delivered medicine. I know you can't tell the difference--you'll fight to the death for a for-profit insurance company and for-profit hospitals to clean your bank account out so as not to let someone else in on the getting.
 
424Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 18:54
I'm sorry, that was Razor letting the cat out of the bag.
 
425Razor
      ID: 385371019
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 18:56
Obviously a typo. By your own admission, allowing everyone to ring up huge bills at the ER is not efficient.
 
426biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Mon, Jun 22, 2009, 23:05
Okay. That was funny.

I almost tried to save you before Baldwin spotted your slip, Razor, but got busy at work.
 
427Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Jun 24, 2009, 15:41
First, Sen. John Ensign of Nevada, now South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford...

that's two fairly prominent Republicans in two days stepping down from leadership positions, because of extramarital affairs.

good gravy.
 
428Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 00:56
Limbaugh lays the blame for the Sanford affair--at the feet of Obama (!)
 
429Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 03:04
It was part of a larger theme he had been working on all day. A lot of people think Dems spending our last nickle are putting the nail in America's coffin and are just giving up in spirit.

Cloward-Pivens have won. Not sure this is recoverable. Might as well throw a party on the deck of the Titanic.
 
430biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 03:09
Oh gawd. Throw a fickin' pity-party. It was Bush and a Republican Congress who spent our last nickel, you just refused to realize it at the time. Now Obama is doing his best to pay the bill Bush stiffed him with.
 
431WiddleAvi
      Sustainer
      ID: 361032112
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 08:03
ummm the affair started a year ago.
 
432Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 08:28
So his exasperation was clearly prescient.
 
433boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 09:20
Oh gawd. Throw a fickin' pity-party. It was Bush and a Republican Congress who spent our last nickel, you just refused to realize it at the time. Now Obama is doing his best to pay the bill Bush stiffed him with.

you mean hey look i am not spending as much as last administration. I do not see any bills being paid here.
 
434Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 09:43
A lot of people think Dems spending our last nickle are putting the nail in America's coffin and are just giving up in spirit.

good. let those clueless dolts give up. they're the ones who gleefully cheered the run to the war in iraq, who didn't care at all what the previous administration spent, who suddenly decided three months ago that they no longer wanted to pay taxes after decades o doing so, and would prefer a nation filled with white warriors for a single god instead of a diverse population that has made this country so great for 230+ years.

the histrionics of the radical right - which become more and more marginalized every day - would be purely comical, were it not for the fact that it's so absurd that you're think it was some sort of mass Histrionic Personality Disorder outbreak.
 
435Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 10:01
I do not see any bills being paid here

An analysis of the fiscal responsibility of the Obama Administration remains to be written. Bush's fiscal legacy is clear to see. Despite a decent economy (including the biggest housing bubble ever) Bush and the GOP continued to pile up tons of debt which we will continue to have to pay out.

If you listen to the Right, however, Obama is just playing to form. But what was the GOP's excuse?
 
436Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 10:40
The right's excuse was that that was a neocon administration, not a right administration.

Neocons are pro-big government. They owe their heritage to Leon Trotsky.

Democracy doesn't really throw up decent choices as practiced in the real world. Ask Iranians.
 
437Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 10:42
Phrase of the day:

...that was a neocon administration, not a right administration.
 
438Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 10:44
Well, I certainly think that Cheney, the real neocon in the Administration, ended up pulling a hell of a lot more strings than anyone thought he would.

I believe, however, that the real culprit was the GOP insistence that a Republican wartime president should get whatever he wants. That's why the only major health care reform that Republicans have ever supported is the godawful Medicare bill of Bush's.
 
439Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 10:57
Yeah, that passed with zero Dem votes did it? That was Bush pathetically sucking up to you. As if you ever saw a social services spending bill you personally would vote down.
 
440Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 11:06
neocons aren't on the right?

interesting. i guess the revisionist history (aka imagination aka lies) writing continues..
 
441Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 11:10
related to Cheney is the fact that i am having a HS reunion this fall, and one of my closest friends from then is actually a higher up at Halliburton, to the point where that person testified (the video is all over the 'net, kinda cool actually) in front of congress at one point.

i already emailed her and told her i will be giving her grief. she laughed. considering my small high school in a $hitty neighborhood, it's kinda cool to have someone like that (not to mention one of the anchors from MSNBC) come from that.
 
442DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 11:19
The right's excuse was that that was a neocon administration, not a right administration.

Who was it that elected them, twice?
 
443Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 11:21
I'm sorry, Baldwin. Did you lose your math skills? The GOP passed the Medicare bill. They were in charge of both houses of Congress at the time. They passed it through committee, introduced it, and extended voting time 15 minutes in order to pass it. Did some Dems vote for it? Sure. But your buddy Tom Daschle was a big opponent of it. So was John Kerry. Even Ted Kennedy, who fought for years for prescription drug coverage overhauls of the system, hated this bill.

You really have to stop trying to retroactively change your opinions when you find out later that something the GOP said or did was wrong.
 
444boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 13:12
re 435 so what is your point? It is ok for Obama to run up new bills because that is what the last administration did it first? In 6 months he has all ready ran up 1/10 the debt bush ran up in 8 years, do the math at that pace he will out spend bush by 60% assuming he gets reelected and i am being generous by putting the responsibility of the spending that they both support on Bush. You are right he still has time to make amends and hopefully he will.
 
445biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 14:08
Baldwin's feminine side:



Just kidding. Mostly.
 
446Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 15:41
#444: What's missing from it all is context. The GOP, trying desperately to reclaim the mantle of "fiscal responsibility party" wipes away all context from Obama's stimulus spending.

Many of those very same Congressional members voted for Bush's stimulus spending bill, while passing budgets even bigger than Obama's. Does this mean that one side should do it because the other side does? No--this means that context should matter, and only one side it presenting it.

Once again, the GOP is trying to score political points at the expense of whatever good faith they still have left.
 
447Razor
      ID: 385371019
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 16:16
It's also important to note that Obama is aware of the ballooning deficit and intends to do something about it. When did Bush ever show the slightest inkling that growing the deficit was a bad thing. Just six months ago, political boards like this one were filled with arguments by those on the Right that the national debt is an irrelevant number and that running up huge deficits does not matter.
 
448biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 16:36
The Right has actively engaged in government sabotage, using the method of "starve the beast".

Run up the deficit using tax cuts.

Run up spending at the same time, but make sure to appoint incompetents to leadership positions, or those actively hostile to performing the function they are charged with overseeing. So they use the money to buy monkeywrenches.

And then they have the gall to complain that the government is bankrupt and dysfunctional 4 months after they are booted from power.

Amazing.
 
449boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 16:51
Re: 446, the GOP his hypocritical no arguement there, that does not change the facts that for all the talk reducing debts Obama is on pace to out spend bush and if you can not see that then you are not better than the GOP members you ridicule.

It's also important to note that Obama is aware of the ballooning deficit and intends to do something about it.

I hope you are right and that is not just talk so far nothing he has said would indicate that is going to happen. Though for good or bad, not sure which, I don't think health care reform is going happen this summer so I guess in short term that will save us some money.

Run up spending at the same time, but make sure to appoint incompetents to leadership positions, or those actively hostile to performing the function they are charged with overseeing. So they use the money to buy monkeywrenches.

I am not sure where this comes from.
 
450Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 16:53
Many of those very same Congressional members voted for Bush's stimulus spending bill, while passing budgets even bigger than Obama's.

No budget in the history of the world has been bigger that Obama's budget.
 
451biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 17:15
I am not sure where this comes from.

"Heck of a job, Brownie."

Ring any bells?

Assigning a polo player to oversee FEMA was pretty much par for the course for Bush.

Assign a timber lobbyist to oversee the interior.

A Secretary of Energy who sponsored a Bill to abolish the Department of Energy.

A Representative to the UN who was actively hostile to the institution.

And on and on.

Anyone who actually tried to competently do their job, such as Christine Todd Whitman, he drove office.
 
452Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:01
Rep Bachman: You know, the Census that this Administration is doing reminds me of Japanese internment camps...
 
453Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:01
How many times has Obama already broken his own 'rule' about not hiring former lobbyists?
 
454Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:03
That census is outrageously intrusive and it got that way earlier than Obama.
 
455Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:03
Put it in the Obama thread.
 
456Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:08
neocons aren't on the right?

interesting. i guess the revisionist history (aka imagination aka lies) writing continues..
- Tree

Interesting question. But all you have to do is realize that Christopher 'uber-liberal' Hitchens insinuated himself into the republican party via neocons, to understand the complete truthfulness of that claim.
 
457sarge33rd
      ID: 34582617
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:08
re 449 and your complaint about Obama and his current spending levels.....


When was the FY Budget written/passed? Prior to Pres Obama being elected correct? The Fed FY runs Oct 1 thru Sep 30. This 1st year budget, isnt on Obama.

As for his spending re bailouts or whatever else you care to call them...what else would you have him do? Let some 2 million or so more Americans become unemployed? What does that do to State Budgets? What does that do to the national economy? What does that do to Tax Revenue next year?

Some are fond of saying you cant spend your way to prosperity. While this is true in the long run, in the short term; the negative impact to the national economy can be HUGELY lessened; by putting money back into the economy. Spending, to keep people working, to keep people buying food, to keep people employed.

You dont like that idea it is clear. So other than whining about what Obama is doing....what would you have him do instead?

 
458Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:16
Appearances can be deceiving. Never so much as when, 'He hates Bill Clinton, so he must have switched to our side'.
 
459Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:20
Sarge

The current stimulous bill [currently being passed under cover of the media blitz over Micheal Jackson's death], is nothing more than a giant christmas tree of Dem wish list items previously thwarted by many years of Republican control.
 
460biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:23
The truth is that the vast majority of economists out there are advising Obama do exactly what he is doing. According to mainstream economic theory, because the last 2 terms of the presidency have destroyed the economy, and very nearly the entire underpinnings of the financial system, this is the time to spend money, so he is spending money.

Sure, you can find some kook or disingeniousness partisan hack neocon to disagree, but in general, what Obama is doing is pretty much what any economist with half a brain and no axe to grind is recommending. If anything, he's not spending enough.

Anyone who sat back uncritically these last 8 years and watched Bush light the house on fire, and now bitches about how much water Obama is using, has mentally crippled by partisanship.
 
461Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:31
No Bili, economists don't approve of just any spending. Not even Keynes would support absolutely any government spending as helpful.

I would expect government spending to be useful in this situation, but handing billions to special interest groups like Acorn doesn't qualify.
 
462DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:34
"Sure, you can find some kook ... to disagree"

"I would expect government spending to be useful in this situation, but handing billions to special interest groups like Acorn doesn't qualify."

What a remarkable coincidence.
 
463Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:36
Well let's just give it all to Acorn then.
 
464biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 18:41
Well Creating jobs by rehabbing houses and providing foreclosure and mortgage mod assistance doesn't sound so bad.

But I'm sure you'll tell me they fund terrorists or something.
 
465Building 7
      ID: 475442619
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 21:46
The truth is that the vast majority of economists out there are advising Obama do exactly what he is doing. (Theses are the same clowns who saw no problems last September ) According to mainstream economic theory, because the last 2 terms of the presidency have destroyed the economy, and very nearly the entire underpinnings of the financial system,(This is not true) this is the time to spend money, (All times are the time to spend money according to these economists)so he is spending money.

Sure, you can find some kook or disingeniousness partisan hack neocon to disagree, (Anyone who disagrees is a kook? )but in general, what Obama is doing is pretty much what any economist with half a brain (Any economist that wants to stay on the gravy train)and no axe to grind is recommending. If anything, he's not spending enough. (You're right, they should give one million dollars to every person. This would massively stimulate the economy and creat jobs)

Anyone who sat back uncritically these last 8 years and watched Bush light the house on fire, and now bitches about how much water Obama is using, has mentally crippled by partisanship.(makes no sense)
 
466Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Jun 26, 2009, 22:02
makes no sense

Allow me to help.

Here's Reagan policy advisor and Bush41 treasury official Bruce Bartlett:
Finally, in desperation, my critics said that it is not actually the level of taxation today that they are protesting. It’s the implicit tax resulting from large federal deficits that really concerns them.

I might have been willing to buy this argument except for the fact that these same people justified a huge tax cut in 2001 on the grounds that large budget surpluses, which had arisen toward the end of Bill Clinton’s administration, were proof of over-taxation since the government was taking in more revenue than it needed to pay its bills.

Furthermore, the conservative line for the last eight years was that budget deficits don’t matter, as Vice President Dick Cheney famously remarked when Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill raised concerns about them at a cabinet meeting in 2002. (O’Neill was fired shortly thereafter for not being on-message.) It’s at least a bit disingenuous for conservatives to suddenly change their view on deficits simply because their team is no longer in power.
Here's a post from Madman, an actuary and probably the most respected contributer to this forum on economic matters from both the right and the left. He is responding to criticism of Bush's tax cuts from Charlie Rangelwho said "This is no victory for people who work every day because eventually this tax giveaway to the wealthy will have to be paid for,":
Of course budget deficits never have to be paid off. I'm not sure I understand your point here ... One T-bill becomes due, you simply issue another one to cover for it. This is what we've done for 50-60 years now. It will work as long as the overall debt burden of the United States stays somewhat small relative to the income generating potential of its citizens. And it is safe to say that we are not even close to the point where creditors are questioning the ability of the US government to pay off its legal burdens if they would ever require us to do so.

Furthermore, as long as we continue to create new ways to be productive and as long as our economy grow, any deficit we run today will become increasingly meaningless as time goes on. It's pretty cool, actually.

This is not to say that some fiscal sanity is in order. But there are much bigger problems that reducing tax collections by some fraction one percent, which is what this bill ultimately does.
If you think that wasn't the mindset that most of the political right was walking around with at the time, I'm sorry, but you just weren't paying very close attention.

 
467Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 09:39
It's the mindset ever since Meynard Keynes.
 
468biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 09:47
I understand, B7. You desperately want Obama to go get a shovel, dig up Ludwig von Mises, prop him up against a tree and put a Deputy of the Treasury Badge on him.

He may, but my guess is he'll stick with those with a heartbeat as well as a mathematical foundation for their theories.
 
469Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 18:20
And how many golden geese does it take to feed the poor? For that matter are golden geese in such neverending supply that we can sacrifice them on an ongoing basis?
 
470Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 18:23
When he runs out of golden geese, robbinhood will be seen waylaying the middle class out on route 80.
 
471biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sat, Jun 27, 2009, 18:26
Bush tortured and killed the golden goose. Obama is just trying to give it a proper burial.
 
472Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Sun, Jun 28, 2009, 11:23
Liberals claiming republicans destroyed the rich. That's rich. You've always said they were unduly favorable to the rich.
 
473DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Jun 28, 2009, 12:43
Didn't say they were any good at what they were trying to do...
 
474Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Sun, Jun 28, 2009, 12:49
Heh. Yeah, forcing those making over $250K to the rates the GOP set in the 1990's is "destroying the golden goose."

When you don't have an argument, you should probably, at this point, avoid the fear mongering. It just doesn't work anymore.
 
475Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Sun, Jun 28, 2009, 16:33
I'm curious why liberals don't mind a regressive tax on energy which will just devastate the working poor. Ahh, there's the answer. They weren't supposed to work. They should stay on the welfare plantation.
 
476Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Jun 29, 2009, 08:38
Oklahoma Rep. Sally Kern, who last year called homosexuality "than terrorism or Islam" (which is a WTF in more ways than one), is at it again.

now she has issues a Proclamation for Morality, in which she blames our nation's economic woes on "abortion, pornography, same sex marriage, sex trafficking, divorce, illegitimate births, child abuse, and many other forms of debauchery," as well as also claiming President Obama is responsible because he supports these various things...

lovely. :o)
 
477Pancho Villa
      ID: 52547299
      Mon, Jun 29, 2009, 10:48
a regressive tax on energy

How is the tax on energy regressive?

If anything, the tax would be progressive, as the concept is to move forward into a 21st century world that isn't chained to fossil fuels, especially coal and oil, the dirtiest burning of the bunch.

That's not to say that this current bill is worthy of support, especially since it has likely been mangled by last minute amendments.

What's really curious is this new found concern for the working poor. Conservatives adamantly oppose a functional health system that currently devastates the working poor. It's not that hard to find ways to conserve energy in order to counter any increase in costs, but impossible for most to find a way to pay for 12 stitches for a child with a price tag of $1,400, much less something really serious.
 
478boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jun 29, 2009, 11:15
I might have been willing to buy this argument except for the fact that these same people justified a huge tax cut in 2001 on the grounds that large budget surpluses, which had arisen toward the end of Bill Clinton’s administration, were proof of over-taxation since the government was taking in more revenue than it needed to pay its bills.

this has to make you wonder if transparency is a good thing.
 
479Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Mon, Jun 29, 2009, 23:40
How is the tax on energy regressive? - PV

In the same way that a tax on groceries would be regressive.

In the same way that when Warren Buffet's gasoline budget doubles it doesn't hurt him as badly as when it doubles mine.

When a poor person is forced to sell his house at a firesale price and then finds out that he is not allowed to sell until he gets his house up to Obama's specs he will be forced to sell his house at an even more ridiculous penalty thru a middleman, someone who can bring it up to specs because they have deeper pockets.

What is it going to cost the poor in some small rural town who can't even afford one policeman, when the energy bill forces them to hire an energy enforcement officer?

Do you think the 2.5 million jobs a year that this bill will kill, will be high paying jobs? No, it will hit poor people.

The bill pays companies to relocate outside this country. Who does that hurt? Warren Buffet? No, the poor.

 
480sarge33rd
      ID: 315313010
      Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 11:31
re 476...someone needs to ask the good Representative from OK, just how the Gov of SCs affair; is Obama's fault?
 
481Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 12:12
Cap and trade isn't a tax. Let alone a "regressive tax."

Mixed with nonsense like "...he is not allowed to sell until he gets his house up to Obama's specs..." it is no wonder that Baldwin hasn't made sense in a long time.
 
482boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 12:37
re 476 in case you did not see from PD in another thread explains it all, well at least Rush explains it all.
 
483boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 12:41
Cap and trade isn't a tax. what exactly would you call it?
 
484Biliruben on iffyone
      ID: 52052916
      Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 12:42
You can pretty much call anything you want a tax, PD.

Even tax cuts.

"bush,s tax cuts were a tax on my unborn son."

see! Easy and fun!
 
485Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 12:51
Heh.
 
486boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 12:54
never mind i expected a serious answer and get this.
 
487Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 13:15
Sorry--didn't see your note and just read bili's. Which isn't altogether unserious, given how dead on that characterization is.

I'd describe cap and trade as setting up a market for emissions efficiency. Because companies can sell off emissions allowances to other companies, emissions efficiency becomes a product. Companies themselves can decide how much (or little) of their own resources to put into emissions reductions and the market can determine the costs & benefits. Meanwhile, innovation (spurred by the marketplace) will allow companies to gain efficiency with lower costs down the line.
 
488boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 13:51
I have not problem with the system, the question i have is. Is the government going to give out the permits, auction them or a mix and how often are permits issued? If they just give them out then you really can not call this a tax, it is more like regulation. If the auction them then is amounts to lease on the air or a pre paid fine.

 
489Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 14:39
But even an auction isn't a tax, boikin. What Baldwin wants to do is to call virtually any business cost a "tax" if it is imposed by the government, and that isn't how the word "tax" is used.

The word "tax" is his magic talisman--waiving it around, he hopes to confuse people.
 
490boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 15:13
I am not sure he wrong about it being a tax. If you a paying a fee to use something and in this case the air which is under the control of the government. This is pretty clearly a tax. Look up the earliest forms of taxes and land use taxes under the feudal system. where he is wrong is that it is a regressive tax, it more accurately a proportional tax.
 
491biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 16:30
I have read pretty convincing analysis that a carbon tax would be much more efficient, but because it had the word "Tax" in the name, it was politically dead in the water.

When are people going to wake up to the fact that, regardless of what you call it, wealth redistribution happens with each and every thing government does. The semantics used only depends on what side you are on.
 
492Boldwin
      ID: 25282121
      Wed, Jul 01, 2009, 12:05
Bili

I don't want to pay 5 dollars a gallon, and I don't care how you want to spin the semantics. It will feel like tax to me.
 
493DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Jul 01, 2009, 13:09
I'm not fond of paying $2.50 per gallon. I fail to see what that has to do with anything.
 
494boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Jul 01, 2009, 14:55
I am not fond of paying for gas at all.
 
495biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Jul 01, 2009, 18:09
I didn't mind paying for my bean burrito for lunch....

It will feel like tax to me. - Baldwin.

There you go again. Coming to poor conclusions by listening to your feelings instead of your brain.

I recommend listening to your stomach like me!

 
496Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 05:46
There is the concern of liberals for the poor who will have to shoehorn an extra 25 dollars into their weekly budget to make liberals feel good about themselves.
 
497biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 11:04
When conservatives, who have been stickin' it to the poor hard and deep since the dawn of time, start whining "what about the poor!", I find it hard to take them seriously.
 
498sarge33rd
      ID: 54625212
      Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 13:25
I find it more and more difficult to take "conservatives" seriously, on a daily basis.
 
499Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 16:20
Inhofe declares the deal dead in the Senate.

Inhofe, of course, is a proponent of the "Global Warming is a Hoax" theory, so this might just be wishful thinking on his part. Inhofe hasn't been altogether correct on many items involving global warming.

Worth noting: Inhofe is already calling Franken a "clown." "No offense intended."
 
500Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 18:51
Inhofe hasn't been altogether correct on many items involving global warming. - PD

The last eleven years of actual weather as opposed to computer models, has been very very good to Inhofe's side of that debate. Which makes your comment high on the unintended hilarity index.

Clown? Where would he get an idea like that?

 
501biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 18:59
Look at the pretty (or ugly) charts for yourself.

Yes their is noise. But that's as expected as your sound and fury, and about as enlightening.


 
502Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 19:20
Which makes your comment high on the unintended hilarity index.

The sad part is that you are so focused on hilarity rather than science.

Find me a fact stated by Inhofe on global warming. Any of them will do. Chances are pretty good that he's wrong, or using the fact completely out of context.

Go ahead. Post one.
 
503Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 19:42
Clown? Where would he get an idea like that?

from a fake photo, maybe?



One that was doctored by the Ohio GOP, complete with a fake smear quote, and from more than 2 1/2 years ago?

nice one Baldwin. keep the lies coming, pal.
 
504Building 7
      ID: 475442619
      Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 21:42
You're not supposed to call it global warming anymore. It's now....... climate change. They had to change it because global temperatures are now going down.
 
505Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 21:46
Call it whatever you want. Global warming theory is not predicated on the year to year temperature changes. The picture is much wider. And longer.
 
506Seattle Zen
      ID: 4624222
      Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 23:24
It's called "climate change" because things like massive increases in rainfall in some places, the complete lack of rainfall in others, increased storm surges and hurricanes, more incidents of extreme weather are all attributes of global warming. These things are what we need to be worried about, not just the thermometer.
 
507Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Jul 03, 2009, 09:43
An article about the Class of '94...

In the 14 years since that star-crossed class arrived in Washington espousing an agenda that placed family values at its core, no less than a dozen of its members have been caught up in affairs, sex scandals or in messy separations and divorces from their spouses that, in more than a few instances, led to their political downfalls.
 
508Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 21:03
Jim Bunning not running for re-election.

I think he's probably right that the GOP leadership didn't want him running again--he would have had a difficult general election race anyway, and now the GOP can re-cast the race with a fresh face.

MBJ: Any home news on this one?
 
509Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 00:11
John Cornyn: I didn't mean we need a fleet of $200 million planes to fight India. I meant we need them to fight China.

An example of a correction which isn't much better.
 
510DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 01:03
Meh, I'll file that one under "random stupid stuff that people occasionally say when their brain short-circuits".
 
511sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 09:25
Hawaii again declares Obama Birth Certificate Genuine


When WILL the question here cease and desist?
 
512Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 09:36
It won't Sarge. When the agenda is to demonize the opposition at all costs, there is no concern for such trivialties as honesty, logic and shame. If the opposition here at Rotoguru is any kind of indicator, there is no interest in facts, only the Hannity/Limbaugh/Malkin-fed talking points which will be taken as the Gospel truth which must be supported and defended to any length necessary. Note how they look at you with surprised curiosity when you suggest they check the actual record against their unfounded or grossly exaggerated accusations.

Not only is he a terrorist and a racist but he is also not even a natural citizen; official documentation or not!

They are crazed with their seething hate.
 
513Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 12:34
Conservative Pundit David Frum with some tough love for his side of the aisle:
If I lived in a country in imminent danger of a Bolshevik or Fascist seizure of power, I’d be a cowardly fool if I failed to use every means to prevent it, including violence if need be. If it were true that our political opponents wanted to impose tyranny on the United States – if (as Rush Limbaugh said the other day) a vote for the other party was a vote for “totalitarianism, dungeons, and torture,” then what patriot could possibly abide a political defeat?

Happily, none of those things are true. As wrong and harmful as the Obama administration’s plans are, the administration is playing by the rules of the game. To agitate people into thinking otherwise is to corrode the foundations of the American constitutional regime.

It is also to act and look like sore losers. If America has been sliding gently but irresistibly into soft despotism, where were all the valiant defenders of liberty before November of 2008? Soft despotism begins to look less like a profound sociological trend, more like undulations of the sine curve: It’s despotism when we lose, freedom when we win. We should have more confidence in the people and the country than this. We should also have more charity to our political opponents – who after all are contending with hideous problems bequeathed to them by … by … well suddenly we Republicans cannot seem to remember who preceded Barack Obama in office. To listen to us, you’d think that the bailouts and takeovers started on January 20, 2009, not the previous March. You’d never know that TARP was supported by almost every Republican commentator, including the editors of National Review. Or that Vice President Cheney argued urgently in favor of the rescue of the Detroit automakers. Or that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac enjoyed the backing of Republican as well as Democratic lawmakers.

One bad election converts us from ardent admirers of the American people to glum declinists who can see only a miserable moldering of a once great nation. I should have thought that conservative patriotism was made of stronger stuff.
Me too.
 
514Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 13:26
The sad direction of the GOP has taken it to a place where very near the majority (going against my gut and giving you the benefit of doubt that it's still a minority) of you people think this insane hate-peddling MFer makes sense:



Here's a worthwhile exercise: search therough the Rotoguru Politics Forum archives, both current and deleted threads. Look through the scores (maybe hundreds) of posts pointing to the most egregious rightist attacks on Obama, whether they are made and/or supported by the poster or just pointed out. I'm talking about the claims that he is a terrorist, a terrorist sympathizer, that he supports a Kenyan despot through huge campaign donations and/or stump speeches, that he is not an American citizen, that he is a racist, that he is a Marxist, a communist, a Muslim, that he is whatever will strike the most hateful or loathesome or fearful chord in the listener or reader. Look through those many, many posts and find just 3 examples where a member of the right side of this forum took exception to such absurd and outlandish accusations.

Out of what might be hundreds of posts, do even three such occurrances exist in this forum?
 
515sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 13:40
in a word....no.
 
516Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 14:00
Folks, this is what it has come to. The most powerful people in the world -- nationally elected legislators responsible for setting policy for the most powerful country on earth -- are lining up with cuckoo-bat-shit-crazy elements of the lunatic fringe.

And they have to. It's their base.
 
517sarge33rd
      ID: 236141411
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 14:10
In post 512 MITH, you said:

They are crazed with their seething hate.

This conjurs a mental image of a pack of rabid dogs. Unfortunately, I think that is a fair representation of what we are seeing from the right wing these days. No logic, no intellect...pure unbridled attack.
 
518Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 14:15
Here's a worthwhile exercise:[For someone who has absolutely no life whatsoever] search therough the Rotoguru Politics Forum archives, both current and deleted threads. [Probably over 500 of them]Look through the scores (maybe hundreds) of posts pointing to the most egregious rightist attacks on Obama, whether they are made and/or supported by the poster or just pointed out.[You would have to go post by post and read and analyze every post of every thread both current and deleted]] I'm talking about the claims that he is a terrorist, a terrorist sympathizer, that he supports a Kenyan despot through huge campaign donations and/or stump speeches, that he is not an American citizen, that he is a racist, that he is a Marxist, a communist, a Muslim, that he is whatever will strike the most hateful or loathesome or fearful chord in the listener or reader.[More analysis.] Look through those many, many posts [Many, many hours later]and find just 3 examples where a member of the right side of this forum took exception to such absurd and outlandish accusations. [I came up with more than three.]

Out of what might be hundreds of posts, do even three such occurrances exist in this forum?
[Yes]

 
519Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 14:18
I came up with more than three.

Any particular reason why you don't show your work?
 
520Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 14:27
I don't even understand post 518. He rejects the challenge but claims to have met it? Whatever. Another argument for the dearth of logic and intelligence on the right side of this forum.

For teh record, I'm quite sure that I'd have no problem finding 3 posts in which I have defended the likes of GW Bush, Sarah Palin and even Dick Cheney and from egregious and even not so egregious accusations. Probably take me 10 minutes, tops.
 
521Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 14:36
poor Trent Franks...he's about to get tossed from his own party now...then again, he actually seems to have a lick of sense, so why would they want him in their party.

The most powerful people in the world -- nationally elected legislators responsible for setting policy for the most powerful country on earth -- are lining up with cuckoo-bat-shit-crazy elements of the lunatic fringe.

And they have to. It's their base.


i've been saying for months they are steadily becoming a regional, religious party, and i stand by that. it's a damn shame too, because they are fostering a one-party system by doing so, as i'm not sure there really is another political party strong enough to make it a fair two-party system.

As the Republicans splinter into two groups, neither will be strong.
 
522Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 14:38
You'd think, then, that the Democrats would be emboldened by the GOP self-immolation. Instead, they seem intent upon taking the Road to Inaction.

 
523biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 15:10
You'd think.

That's actually my biggest problem with Democrats.

They are, by and large, pussies.

If Ralph Nader were President of Speaker of the house, we would be trading in our clunkers for bicycles, have a monorail from SF to Kalamazoo, and have disbanded the army.

Not that I would support those things, but he would at least get things done.
 
524sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 15:21
Too damn busy in-fighting and jockeying for positions of power to accomplish anything. Self-inflicted bottle-neck.
 
525Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 16:00
They are, by and large, pussies.

No argument.
 
526Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 16:56
Any particular reason why you don't show your work?

I did it from memory.

That's actually my biggest problem with Democrats.

They are, by and large, pussies.


Something we can agree on.
 
527Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 17:16
I did it from memory.

Yep, that's the kind of snarky response I expected. What else can you do when you know I'm right?

Through all of the absurd accusations and crackpot theories and dishonest, hateful accusations, has the "conservative" contingent of this forum ever come out and challenge any of it? Ever?
 
528Building 7
      ID: 126371618
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 20:26
What else can you do when you know I'm right?

Do you have evidence that you're right?
Any particular reason why you don't show your work?
Is it possible for one conservative poster to disagree with another conservative poster, and not post something about it?
Does not posting something mean they agree with them?
Why am I wasting my time on this garbage?




 
529Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 20:54
actually, MITH pretty much always shows his work. Probably more than anyone here, he backs up his points with citation upon citation upon citation, usually from several different sources.

but to claim something as you did, then refuse to provide examples, that's lazy.
 
530Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 21:13
Does not posting something mean they agree with them?

Thats a fair question. But really B7 you've posted here long and often enough for me to believe that I have a pretty good feel for your general politics. I know you're highly susceptible to conspiracy theories that I find outlandish. I know you hate being characterized as a conspiracy theorist. I know that you reject the notion of Global Warming.

And I know that through the last two years or so, you've shown that you won't step in even just once in a rare while - hell, even just once - and take exception to someone calling the man who is now President of the United States a terrorist or a racist or some of the many other ridiculous things this President has been called by many highly respected people with notable clout on the political right. I'm sorry but there have been pretty much daily opportunities for you to put just an sliver of seperation between yourself and the rage-feeding fringe.

So here's your chance to put me in my place. Tell me what you think about Glenn Beck. Do you think Obama is a racist? Was his reaction to the Gates/Crowley incident an example of racism? Is he a terrorist? Terrorist sympathizer? Do you agree that these are highly divisive positions that would traditionally be considered extremist but in the last two decades have been spreading into the rightist mainstream? If so, what do you think of the growing segment of the political right that espouses these opinions and what impact do you think it's having on the Republican Party?

It's not like any of this is off topic. This is the 'direction of the gop' thread. And rather than make assumptions based on what you don't say, here I am bothering to ask you for your opinion.
 
531Razor
      ID: 385371019
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 22:03
Sad state of affairs when a popular media personality calls the President a racist without reaction. When Kanye West did it, it was national news, but shoot, people expect musicians to say dumb shit. Kanye West is paid to write and perform songs; Glenn Beck is paid to give informed opinions on politics, and yet he does nothing of the sort. The guy is a buffoon, or at least is playing one on TV, and the longer people like him and Coulter and Limbaugh stay in the national spotlight, the closer we move to idiocracy.
 
532Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 22:07
Reading thru all this leftwing daydreaming I am struck by the number of times the right is accused of calling Obama a terrorist. I can't think of any such charge frankly. He's been charged with being a devoted disciple of Frank Marshall and Saul Alinsky. Far more dangerous and harmful, but not a terrorist per se. A terrorist uses terror to force a usually totalitarian outcome. Obama uses the system to achieve a totalitarian outcome.
 
533Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 22:12
Now the George Soros, and Barney Franks of the world who created the economic situation which precipitated an Obama victory could be accused of it in a way.
 
534sarge33rd
      ID: 216452821
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 22:45
?????????????

Graham-Leach-Bliley and Bush's further deregulation set the stage for our current economic crisis Boldwin. Yes, GLB passed under the Clinton Administration, but post mid-term elections after the Reps had taken control of the Legislative Branch.
 
535Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 23:22
Barney Frank created the fiscal crisis?

And Baldwin claims to be against historical revisionism.
 
536Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 23:38
Selective memory: I can't think of any such charge frankly.

Are you saying it was someone not on the right who came up with the phrase, 'terrorist-fist-bump'?

Or that the phrase, “Our opponent is someone who sees America as imperfect enough to pal around with terrorists who target their own country,” isn't specifically designed to play up and play into just the notion that finds terrorism to be an agreeable activity and that he may well enable, if not facilitate acts of terrorism against the US?

Surely the party's base would never go there, right?

And surely only a mole leftist would this as a "terrorist mask" on Amazon:


How about some Obama's Jihad Hot Sauce:


Obama is so casually called a terrorist, terrorist sympathizer, terrorist enabler, terrorist appeaser, terrorist's best friend, etc. that it's absurd that you would ever question it.
 
537Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 23:44
Barney Frank created the fiscal crisis?

Yes, PD, supporting one of the numerous measures that contributed to the crisis makes it all his fault.
 
538Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 08:34
Mith

Barney Frank is STILL pursueing the same measures that lead to the crisis.

On the other issue I'm challenging you to find anyone on this forum who has called Obama a terrorist. I don't even know how they would do that in a figurative sense. Predicting where his policies would logically lead to if completely unchecked could lead to some figurative stretch to that charge I guess. That he is best of friends with actual terrorists is beyond dispute. But no one here has ever suggested that he would choose the route that even Bill Ayers has aparently abandoned if not repudiated.
 
539Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 09:18
Beck should not have called Obama a racist.
Beck is an idiot and should be cancelled.
Sometimes I disagree with conservative posters.


Mith:...I know you're highly susceptible to liberal theories that I find outlandish. What is your reason for having great interest in Democrats. I hope you at least get paid for it. How many people have you converted on these boards? Has it been worth the time invested?
 
540Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 09:33
I know you're highly susceptible to liberal theories that I find outlandish.

It might surprise you that I'm not the least bit offended by that statement.

What is your reason for having great interest in Democrats.

I don't think I have any such great interest. I am a political liberal and the Dem Party is the more traditionally liberal of the two and so it would make sense that they more often nominate candidates that I am likley to support. But I'm certainly no fan of the Democratic Party and in fact have often enough I think denounced both our two-party system and also the notion of party loyalty on both sides. If it makes any difference, prior to Obama, I hadn't voted for a major party candidate for president since 1996.

How many people have you converted on these boards? Has it been worth the time invested?

I don't understand those questions. Why would you think I come here to "convert" people? I come here for (what I believe is) the same reason you do, to chat politics current events and share information and to improve on my understanding of what other people think and why. My time "invested" here is leisure.
 
541Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 11:09
I'm challenging you to find anyone on this forum who has called Obama a terrorist.

No problem.
81 Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:32 National security will sure be an adventure under president Obama and people with the 'wisdom' of Tree. Someone prove to me Obama's second father wasn't the radical moslem I have heard he was. Please.


84 Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:46 ...


Just so I've got this straight...

You believe an Obama presicency compromises our national security because Debbis Schlussel wants you to think his father was a radical muslim?

...


Curious, do you envision his father's people committing acts of espionage and sabatoge from inside the White House or are you more concerned that Obama will complacently allow acts of terrorism inside the US under the threat that we submit sharia law?


85 Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:52 He's probably planning to go full-out whabbi-militant the day he swears in.


86 Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:53 Yeah he's gonna bring change all right.


87 Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:58 You tell me exactly what he plans on doing, MITH.


90 Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Sat, Feb 09, 2008, 00:01 I mean besides let al qeada run around unimpeded for 8 yrs. The far left and he have made that plan unequivically clear.
 
542Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 14:03
Not everyone with a wahabi father or who went to a wahabi mosque or is soft on al qeada, actually engages in terrorist acts.

You will have to do better than that. And why is the majority of that post a collection of your own words when you are attempting to smear me?
 
543Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 14:07
So are you saying that Obama is "soft on al queda" or not? Why are you dancing instead of being firm and decisive? Why is a solid position on the point unwanted by you?
 
544Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 14:15
I would say that his support of al qeada sychophant Hugo Chavez amounts to implicit support for al qeada. He didn't raise any caveat distancing himself from Chavez' leanings along those lines that I can remember.

I would say his recent call for negotiations with the taliban amounts to caving in to al qeada.

I would say his apologizing for america at every stop around the world is among other things carrying water for al qeada whether he sees it that way or not.
 
545Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 14:18
How does he get into bed with Hugo Chavez and retain the Jewish vote. That's what I want to know.
 
546Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 14:34
Who, exactly? That article (which you posted in the Chavez threat) doesn't mention Obama at all, if that's what you are implying.

The problem you have is that you assume the connections, and so feel free to simply post bad things about the people for whom the connections are made in your mind.
 
547Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 14:37
Not everyone with a wahabi father or who went to a wahabi mosque or is soft on al qeada

Your accusation was not that he "is soft", but that he would "let al qeada run around unimpeded".

Shocker that you'll hide from and deny your own claims when they're suddenly inconvenient. Of course the word terrorst for you has a fluid definition that does or doesn't fit whatever is convenient for you at the moment. Ba'athist Iraqi insurgent who doesn't employ terrorist tactics, sure! Abortion doctor murderer who fits the established definition perfectly; hey don't be so loose with such sensitive language!

Were the tides turned, you'd be arguing that in the context of the WoT, a supporter or facilitator of terrorism is the same thing as a terrorist. In fact I'm quite sure you've praised GWB for establishing this very precedent and I'd bet I could easily find posts where you applied the word in exactly that manner.

Dealing with the king of this corner of the lunatic fringe is obviously a waste of time. You claim to have never heard anyone on the political right call President Obama a terrorist. That's all I need to know.
 
548Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 15:33
Neither you or I have heard it here. And I don't hang around right wing echo chambers where it may or may not be flung around flippantly.
 
549Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 16:37
Except for when you've uttered it yourself, you mean. And I don't doubt for a moment that I'd have trouble finding Obama=terrorist claims at Conservatism Today. Aren't you the one who thinks he can prove a point about the left by digging through comments sections at blogs and news sites? Which right wing echo chambers do you hang around?
 
550Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 17:48
I have not accused him of committing terrorism. He wants to build a totalitarian state wherein terror would be institutionalized. But I nowhere said he was strategically willing to engage in terrorist tactics himself to get there. Saul Alinsky was right in that the slow march thru the institutions against a sleeping giant was the way for his side to win.
 
551Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 17:50
Math lesson. When I have eliminated all X with characteristic A and all X without characteristic A...

I have eliminated all X.
 
552Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 19:43
Lurkers can read through 541 and decide for themselves whether what you said then matches what you deny now.

And of course recall the contended point was your claim that you were "struck by the number of times the right is accused of calling Obama a terrorist. I can't think of any such charge frankly" which was as absurd as anything else you've said today.
 
553Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 21:29
Hutchinson to resign the Senate to run for Governor of Texas.

Bad news for the Senate. Good news for Texas state government. Some Republicans are angry with her over the timing of her resignation, but it sends a signal that she is serious about the race.

[IMO if McCain had picked Hutchinson over Palin he very well might be in the Oval Office right now.]
 
554Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 03:19
“Our opponent is someone who sees America as imperfect enough to pal around with terrorists who target their own country,” isn't specifically designed to play up and play into just the notion that finds terrorism to be an agreeable activity and that he may well enable, if not facilitate acts of terrorism against the US? - MITH#536

If you don't want us to notice that your president pals around with unrepentent former leaders of domestic terrorism cells then don't elect them.


 
555Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 08:17
Palling around with someone means they frequently or at least regularly spend time together. In fact typically it referrs to leaisure activity, or at least spending time together when it isn't necessary for them to associate for some other reason, such as meetings for members of teh board they both served on. The disingenuous right would have us think serving on a board with someone is the same as going out for ice cream every afternoon.

Of course none of this would matter if Obama simply sported the correct capital leter after his name. Apparently if you just do that, then you can pal around (for real) with foreign despots and whatever scum you want and Boldy and Hannity won't utter a peep.
 
556Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 08:43
And further her statement was even more offensive than her misuse of the term "pal around with".

She claims that the things he hates about America make him seek the company of terrorists (not that she would ever suggest that he is a terrorist mind you - just that he likes their company... oh and their politics... oh yeah and they make great mentors... but she'd never suggest that Obama might take part in terrorist activities... maybe just enable them a little bit... like maybe - like someoen else who has never called Obama a terrorist said - let al qaeda run around unimpeded for 8 years... so base your vote on that... wink).
 
557Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 10:49
I would say that writing Obama's books on Ayer's dining room table together [when they aren't hosting fundraisers there for him] constitutes more than incidental contact.
 
558Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 10:51
I wonder what the Gates' flap informs us about their dining room discussions of cop killing in the past.
 
559Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 10:58
I bet you do.
 
560Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 11:23
If you had any passionate conservative presence on this forum that subject would have gotten a lively thread.

Gates and Obama tried to ruin some guy's life just for doing his job. Not a problem for liberals. Sanguine bunch.

 
561sarge33rd
      ID: 236141411
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 11:26
GB, still at it

This clown needs to be taken off the air, and deposited in some south 40 where he can live out his life alone and away from civilization.
 
562sarge33rd
      ID: 236141411
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 11:27
GB btw, = Glenn Beck...not George Bush
 
563Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 13:43
writing Obama's books on Ayer's dining room table together

LOL. Another hilarous fabrication that in normal times would remain on the fringe.

For the record, we've known for some time that Ayers actually on wrote the first chapter. ObWi did the legwork and pegged the ghostwriter for each chapter:
Preface — Barack Obama
Chpt. 1 — Bill Ayers

Chpt. 2 — Jeremiah Wright

Chpt. 3 — Larry Johnson (ed. — That one surprised me).

Chpt. 4 — Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Chpt. 5 — Billy Mitchell (slimy cheat from King of Kong)

Chpt. 6 — Karl Marx (posthumously)

Chpt. 7 — Darth Vader

Chpt. 8 — The gorilla from Donkey Kong

Chpt. 9 — Eric Martin

Chpt. 10 — Hamas Q. Muslimman (a Buddhist, ironically)

Chpt. 11 — the New Deal

Chpt. 12 — Gary Farber
 
564Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 14:05
Except it's true. Obama can read a teleprompter but he can't write like that, never did before those two books, nor does he have the sailing background or history of expression usage patterns that mirror Ayer's to a tee.
 
565Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 14:25
that mirror Ayer's to a tee

LOL. Another reason for why the retirement of Hilzoy is such a terrible blow to the blogosphere: SHE OWNS YOU
In Which I Discover Bill Ayers In My Head
by hilzoy

Of all the bits of lunacy unleashed by the prospect that Barack Obama might actually win the election, my personal favorite was Jack Cashill's claim that Bill Ayers had ghostwritten Barack Obama's Dreams From My Father, based on such stunning evidence as this:
"Although there are only the briefest of literal sea experiences in Dreams, the following words appear in both Dreams and in Ayers' work: fog, mist, ships, seas, boats, oceans, calms, captains, charts, first mates, storms, streams, wind, waves, anchors, barges, horizons, ports, panoramas, moorings, tides, currents, and things howling, fluttering, knotted, ragged, tangled, and murky."
Guess what? Cashill is back with a new installment, which is even funnier. His first piece of evidence: Both Obama and Ayers not only quote the same line from Sandburg's Chicago, they misquote it in the same way: "Hog butcher to the world", not "Hog butcher for the world." I misremembered it as 'to the world', which just goes to show that I am, in fact, Bill Ayers. But I'm not alone: writers for the Chicago Tribune, the Washington Post, the San Francisco Chronicle, and even, to my amazement, Reason' s Nick Gillespie all turn out to be Ayers too. Who knew?

But wait! There's more:
"In his Indonesian backyard Obama discovered two "birds of paradise" running wild as well as chickens, ducks, and a "yellow dog with a baleful howl."

In Fugitive Days, there is even more "howling" than there is in Dreams. Ayers places his "birds of paradise" in Guatemala. He places his ducks and dogs together in a Vietnamese village being swept by merciless Americans. In Parent, he talks specifically about a "yellow dog." And he uses the word "baleful" to describe an "eye" in Fugitive Days. For the record, "baleful" means "threatening harm." I had to look it up."
Wait: they both mentioned yellow dogs? And ducks? Well: that settles it. It also means that Bill Ayers wrote Old Yeller and Make Way For Ducklings. As a birder, I should also note that while Obama managed to put his birds of paradise in Indonesia, where Birds of Paradise are actually found, either Ayers' bird was an exotic captive or he just appropriated the name because it sounded nice.

I didn't have to look up 'baleful'. Funny thing, that. Moving right along:
"Ayers is fixated with faces, especially eyes. He writes of "sparkling" eyes, "shining" eyes, "laughing" eyes, "twinkling" eyes, eyes "like ice," and people who are "wide-eyed" and "dark-eyed."

As it happens, Obama is also fixated with faces, especially eyes. He also writes of "sparkling" eyes, "shining" eyes, "laughing" eyes, "twinkling" eyes, and uses the phrases "wide-eyed" and "dark-eyed." Obama adds "smoldering eyes," "smoldering" being a word that he and Ayers inject repeatedly. Obama also uses the highly distinctive phrase "like ice," in his case to describe the glinting of the stars."
Twinkling eyes? That's evidence?

Cashill does not think that Ayers wrote The Audacity of Hope, though. That had to have a different author. Why?
"In Audacity of Hope, Obama does not use (...) most of the distinctive words or combinations of words in Dreams. In Audacity, for instance, there are virtually no descriptions of faces or eyes, and the few that the author does use are flat and cliched -- like "brave face" or "sharp-eyed." In Dreams, seven different people "frown," twelve "grin," and six "squint." In Audacity, no more than one person makes any of these gestures. (...)

These two Obama books almost assuredly had different primary authors."
It would be foolish, in the face of this evidence, to point out that Dreams is a memoir while Audacity is a campaign book about policy, and thus that one would expect both more description and more striking language in the first than in the second. Likewise, after extensive analysis, I have concluded that while I seem to myself to have written both my scholarly publications and my blog posts, I cannot have done so, since there are lots of phrases -- 'Oh Noes!' and 'Ya Think?' leap to mind, as does the word 'blog' -- that never appear in my scholarly work, but do appear in my blog posts.


The explanation is obvious. As I said, since I remembered Sandburg's poem wrong, Bill Ayers apparently ghostwrites my memories. He probably writes my blog posts too. I just wish he had told me himself, rather than leading me to infer his presence in my head on the basis of all this literary "analysis."
 
566Pancho Villa
      ID: 52649309
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 14:28
Except it's true. Obama can read a teleprompter but he can't write like that, never did before those two books, nor does he have the sailing background or history of expression usage patterns that mirror Ayer's to a tee.

Even if your second sentence was accurate, that doesn't support your first sentence as true.

When did it become a conservative value to claim a wild guess as being truth? Baldwin, as I've stated before, you and the media clones you mimic need to quit calling yourselves conservatives.
 
567Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 14:47
Scott Eric Kaufman
 
568Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 15:01
There is literally nothing that the rabid right would not say Obama is lying about.
 
569sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 15:16
There is literally nothing that the rabid right would not say has not said/inferred Obama is lying about.

There, now it's factually accurate. :)
 
570Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 15:19
Yeah, they can tell who the real Shakespeare was using those methods but they can't tell Ayer's writings from Obama's. Riiiight.
 
571Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Jul 30, 2009, 15:33
hahahaha. Good one, Boldwin. You really don't mind displaying your ignorance on a wide variety of topics, by clinging to the skirts of charlatan experts in the fields, do you?

Carry on, I say. Seriously.
 
572Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Jul 31, 2009, 11:57
Just saw this on Andrew Sullivan:



 
573Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Fri, Jul 31, 2009, 12:07
Now let's see that one with the question 'Do you believe that he is a naturalized citizen'?

Let's see a poll with a range of possible answers for, 'Why do you think he has spent a million dollars preventing the release of his records?'.
 
574Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Jul 31, 2009, 12:09
Uh, those of us who believe he was born in the US wouldn't need to be asked about whether he was naturalized. Those are mutually exclusive theories, Boldwin.

Sure, it might be fine to slice and dice the various birther theories. But it seems enough to know that their aggregate effect is small and localized mostly in the South.
 
575Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Fri, Jul 31, 2009, 12:38
The Obama campaign made the birth certificate available back in June of 2008.

What other records do you want? Has anyone thought to demand his 11th grade chemestry midterm?
 
576Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Jul 31, 2009, 12:45
he took Chemistry in 11th grade?

under achiever.
 
577sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Mon, Aug 03, 2009, 17:13
Another one bites the dust...

In part:

NASHVILLE, Tenn. – The Tennessee state senator said he was opposed to sex outside marriage, but his private life told a different story: He was having an affair with his 22-year-old intern.

When an extortion plot exposed married Republican Sen. Paul Stanley's illicit relationship, he said he would be "clearing up" misimpressions later. He's now clearing out his office, the latest politician caught in a sex scandal, this one made worse by not coming clean.

"If you can't explain what you've done to your constituents in 30 seconds or less in a way they would accept, then don't do it," said Bruce Oppenheimer, a political science professor at Vanderbilt University. "It's amazing how many elected officials violate that very important conventional wisdom."...


Can we say "Family values and personal responsibility"?
 
578Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Mon, Aug 03, 2009, 19:22
And yet Barney Frank remains to sodomize the country.
 
579sarge33rd
      ID: 38755321
      Mon, Aug 03, 2009, 22:58
lmao. Homosexuality, is not illegal Boldwin. Nor does B Frank, stand upon a pedestal and "preach" against the very thing he is doing.

What's the matter? Just can't stand it that the Rep party is just as full of self-serving hypocritical bstrds as is the Dem party? They're politicians. Which by definition unfortunately, means there is a 90%+ probability that when they move their lips, they are telling a lie.
 
580Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Aug 05, 2009, 18:47
The disruption campaign of right-wing wackos stoops to a death threat against a Congressman

Kindling is tossed out, explosive truth "shading" helps with the fuel. FOX helps air the plantings (giving self-referential "cred" as oxygen). Then when the fire starts, guess who is the first to claim it wasn't their fault?

Those with the smoking guns in the hands.

These tactics just piss me off.
 
581Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Aug 06, 2009, 14:50
Republicans travel to Israel to undermine the President on Israel policy
 
582DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Aug 06, 2009, 15:09
Isn't that like, treason? (I don't actually believe this, but, y'know...)
 
583Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Aug 06, 2009, 15:13
Silly DW! It is treason when a Republican is President. During those sad times when a Democrat is President, it is treason not to do so.
 
584DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Aug 06, 2009, 15:16
My bad.
 
585Valkyrie
      Dude
      ID: 47042413
      Thu, Aug 06, 2009, 22:51
he title to this thread is The Direction of the GOP II or campaign 2008. It is my opinion that the Republishaas (named after the Israeli ultra-orthodox minority party) should disband in favor of a new secular fiscally conservative party unencumbered by the republican social baggage
which party could reconnect with the beliefs of a plurality of the country.
"I am too a republican I just can never find one that can get nominated that I can vote for."
 
586Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Fri, Aug 07, 2009, 10:41
Neither can social conservatives.
 
587Seattle Zen
      ID: 4778712
      Fri, Aug 07, 2009, 13:08
"I am too a republican I just can never find one that can get nominated that I can vote for."

Boldy:Neither can social conservatives.

Have never been the plurality of the country and never will be...

You might be able to fool some poor saps to vote for you, however.
 
588Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Fri, Aug 07, 2009, 19:25
You slept thru the Reagan years obviously.
 
589Pancho Villa
      ID: 47741716
      Fri, Aug 07, 2009, 21:36
You and your current heroes have nothing to do with Reagan, who would never have stood for this kind of talk about an American President.

"Adolf Hitler, like Barack Obama, ruled by dictate." Rush Limbaugh 8/6/09

Pathetic.
 
590Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Fri, Aug 07, 2009, 21:47
I think he's out and out following Hitler's playbook.
 
591Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Fri, Aug 07, 2009, 21:48
And as a babyboomer you are going to find that out in a very personal and final way.
 
592Pancho Villa
      ID: 47741716
      Fri, Aug 07, 2009, 22:05
Obama's final solution - genocide of babyboomers.

Oy ve!
 
593Boldwin
      ID: 376192015
      Fri, Aug 07, 2009, 22:23
Only it will have a much catchier euphemism. Your euthanazia will be called a "quality measure".
 
594Razor
      ID: 873520
      Sat, Aug 08, 2009, 01:03
It appears Obama has surpassed Clinton in Boldwin's crazed mind. Clinton just killed off a bunch of his enemies; Obama wants to kill off an entire generation.

I wonder at what point you have to stop and say, "Hey, maybe I've taken this thing too far." Probably 30 or 40 steps before you accuse the President of following in Hitler's footsteps, at least for most.
 
595Pancho Villa
      ID: 47741716
      Sat, Aug 08, 2009, 01:53
In the past, you could usually count on Republicans and conservatives to applaud what the Wall Street Journal is calling a major victory for Pakistan and the U.S. in their battle against Islamist militants.

So, I perused Newsmax, FreeRepublic, Townhall, and WorldNetDaily, which has a feature article titled PROOF: Obamacare will lead to 'Medical Murder'
Why health plan could result in the early deaths of millions of baby boomers
(Nothing gets by Baldwin).

You almost expect Sarah Palin to babble incoherently about how Obamacare would kill her child and Limbaugh to compare Obama to Hitler, but I kinda hoped somewhere in the conservative media and blogoshere, there would be the kind of cheerleading for our military and intelligence efforts that were a daily exercise under the former commander-in-chief. Granted,
Fox News did have an article,
Officials: U.S. Intelligence Turning Corner on High-Profile Terror Suspects in Pakistan
at the bottom of the page right behind Kennedy Sister Eunice Shriver in 'Critical' Condition.

The cynics among us might conclude that conservatives hate America, hate the military and are hoping for failure in the conflict with Islamic terrorists.
Fortunately, there isn't a drop of cynicism in my body.
 
596Pancho Villa
      ID: 47741716
      Sat, Aug 08, 2009, 12:28
The larger point in post #596 is that self-identified conservatives and their primary spokespersons are completely consumed with negativity, much like liberals during the GW Bush presidency.

Republican and conservative politicians and commentators risk the wrath of 'the base' if they even hint of optimism in anything presently happening in this country.

Which brings us to the standard bearer most of these conservatives point to as the champion of their principles- Ronald Reagan. Reagan, first and foremost, was an optimist. He had charm and charisma that blurred political lines, and while he could be arrogant and stubborn, he was able to maintain an amiability and high level of respect when dealing with opponents. Reagan didn't continually whine about the media. He didn't make Hitler references about Jimmy Carter or portray him as a baby murderer.

I find myself in opposition to many of President Obama's policies, yet I maintain a high level of optimism for this country's future regardless of who is president. I'm not concerned with Obama killing me in my old age, forcing my children to memorize "Das Kapital" in public school, or jailing me if I refuse to hire a transsexual as a sales rep.

Maybe I'm naive, but I'd rather be a naive optimist than wake up every day wondering how I can be more negative about the world than I was the day before.



 
597sarge33rd
      ID: 236141411
      Sat, Aug 08, 2009, 13:44
596...a SUPERB post PV.
 
598Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Aug 10, 2009, 00:19
well f*ck me running.

i go camping for a week in the Northern Cascades, with no internet and lots of weed, and i come back to find out that Obama is really Hitler in blackface point, and he's out to euthanize a generation in what can only be called the Acorn Holocaust.

I'm thinking maybe i'm still high, but really, whatever Baldwin is on, it is far superior to the acid at The Gorge this weekend during two amazing Phish shows.
 
599Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Aug 10, 2009, 00:26
You forgot that he's going to take away, then kill, Sarah Palin's baby.

You gotta get the narrative down, tree.
 
600Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Aug 10, 2009, 01:08
Wow. i totally missed that point. I think Baldwin took the brown acid...wow...
 
601Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Aug 12, 2009, 14:40
Obama using health scare to "take over" the country by declaring martial law

Silly GOP. The Dems already have all the political power. As usual, they are too disorganized to do anything about it.
 
602Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Aug 12, 2009, 14:46
Michelle Bachmann's son joins Democratic re-education camp.

What's a mother to do?
 
603Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Sat, Aug 15, 2009, 14:18
Bruce Bartlett showing the kind of common sense that could propel the GOP back to the top
 
604Boldwin
      ID: 297271519
      Sat, Aug 15, 2009, 20:27
Or we could listen to people who actually know how the GOP could climb back up.

Newt Gingerich for example. Dick Morris maybe. You think their advice is to imitate Obama?
 
605Boldwin
      ID: 24761720
      Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 21:43
More fodder for PD's triumphalism.
According to new data released by Gallup on Friday, conservatives outnumber liberals in all 50 states--including President Obama’s home state of Illinois--even though Democrats have a significant advantage over Republicans in party identification in 30 states. “In fact, while all 50 states are, to some degree, more conservative than liberal (with the conservative advantage ranging from 1 to 34 points), Gallup's 2009 party ID results indicate that Democrats have significant party ID advantages in 30 states and Republicans in only 4,” said an analysis of the survey results published by Gallup.
Source
 
606Boldwin
      ID: 24761720
      Mon, Aug 17, 2009, 21:46
I missed this part:
At the same time, more Americans nationwide are saying this year that they are conservative than have made that claim in any of the last four years.
Predictable given the headlong drive to socialize the country.
 
607Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 00:30
i am sure that most people who call themselves conservative would be "in name only" to you...
 
608Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 09:58
The direction of the GOP: Obstructionist Party Politics Before All Else
In an interview today on MSNBC's "Morning Meeting with Dylan Ratigan," Senate Finance Committee ranking member Chuck Grassley (R) said he'd vote against any health-care reform bill coming out of the committee unless it has wide support from Republicans -- even if the legislation contains EVERYTHING Grassley wants.

"I am negotiating for Republicans," he said. "If I can't negotiate something that gets more than four Republicans, I'm not a good negotiator."

When NBC's Chuck Todd, in a follow-up question on the show, asked the Iowa Republican if he'd vote against what Grassley might consider to be a "good deal" -- i.e., gets everything he asks for from Senate Finance Chairman Max Baucus (D) -- Grassley replied, "It isn't a good deal if I can't sell my product to more Republicans."


Chuck Todd asks him in unambiguous terms:

If there is a faction of the Republican Party that will vote no against the president simply to be partisan, but you are looking at healthcare policy that you actually believe is a better policy than the current policy, would you vote for that polict even if it ran against that- the grain of the party- who is running for 2010?


Grassley's response:

Don't forget, there's 40 Republicans and probably 40 different approaches to healthcare within that caucus. And what we have to do is find a broad base of support within the Republican Party.



Atrios:
For those of us who are moderately sentient, it's been clear all along that the Republican strategy was to block health care reform at any cost. Their extra strategy is to do their best to make the bill as shitty as possible so that it's unpopular.
 
609DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 10:08
The amusing irony of 605 and 606 is that:

A lot of Americans identify them as conservative.

Yet, a lot of Americans identify themselves as Democrats rather than Republicans (because, I would speculate, the Republican Party as it stands now is TOO conservative).

Yet the solution espoused for making the Republican Party more powerful is to become EVEN MORE conservative (thereby, in reality, driving those self-identified conservatives even farther away from them).

Okay, maybe it's only funny to me.
 
610Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 10:08
Publius
The real importance of the protests, though, is their effect upon Republicans. In short, the protests -- and the hostility in the base more generally -- have scared them "straight." Even if they wanted to do reform in the past, they won't join the effort now.

Take Grassley for instance. I suspect he at least started this process intending to reach some kind of deal. Now, however, he knows that he'll face the wrath from the teabaggers if he supports reform. The protests have caused him to regress -- and it's not like he had staked out a particularly progressive position in the first place.

Second, Grassley's comments should confirm that the Finance Committee negotiations are pointless. I mean, a lot of us have been saying that for a while, but the validation of death panels should make it painfully clear to all.

If Grassley is too scared of the protesters to oppose denounce arguments that rely on fraudulent, non-existent parts of the bill, what exactly will he have courage to embrace? The fact that he won't even draw a line here, at this most absurd of extremes, shows that there will be no lines drawn anywhere. He'll never agree to anything.

Maybe 'twas always thus, maybe it wasn't. But that's the reality now. The Republicans not only aren't going to join reform, they may be structurally incapable of joining given the levels of anger within the base.

 
611Pancho Villa
      ID: 6736189
      Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 10:36
Any kind of health reform bill will be seen as a victory for Obama, which Republicans feel they must avoid at all costs, the good of the nation be damned.

This is also the reason they're silent on recent successes in the Afghan/Pakistan border region.

How ironic that those who insist they have a monopoly on patriotism are so quick to abandon support for our military adventures when directed by the current commander-in-chief. Party before country is hardly a template for patriotism.
 
612Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 11:06
Yeah--I didn't see a damn thing on any conservative outlets when the news hit that a drone might have killed off Pakistan's Taliban leader. I guess when Bush does it then it is cause for celebration. When Obama does it, it is "Where's the birth certificate??"

Republicans clearly believe that legislative "victories" measured in "Obama bills stopped" will translate into election victories later. History certainly has shown that Dems will have a hard time holding onto all their seats, and they have many more to defend this time around.

But Republicans are playing by pre-Obama rules. It is a mistake, I think, to underestimate Obama's ability to pull out legislative or electoral victories.
 
613Boldwin
      ID: 457431818
      Tue, Aug 18, 2009, 20:37
More triumphalism please.
 
614Seattle Zen
      ID: 59762220
      Sat, Aug 22, 2009, 21:07


Actually, that's the very same answer to why people drive oversized, jacked-up trucks.
 
615Mith
      ID: 1871267
      Tue, Aug 25, 2009, 22:35
McCain Booed By Arizonans For Saying Obama Respects Constitution
"Wait a minute. Wait a minute," he told the crowd in Sun City, Airzona. "He is sincere in his beliefs, we just happen to disagree. And he is the president. And let's be respectful."

A questioner had asked whether Obama realized that the spending priorities his administration is pursuing are "against the Constitution."

"Doesn't he know that we still live under a Constitution?" the attendee asked.

"I'm sure that he does," McCain responded. The crowd, thinking the response was a joke, laughed along.

"No, no. I am serious. I am sure that he does and I'm sure he respects the Constitution," said McCain.

Shouts of "No" came from the crowd.

"I really do," McCain pleaded. "I am absolutely convinced of it. I just believe, my friends, that there is a fundamental difference in philosophy and about the role of government. That is why we have competition for public office and competition amongst parties, and competition about different ideas and vision for the future of America. I'm convinced the president is absolutely sincere in his beliefs."

Later in the question-and-answer session, McCain would again face moderately hostile receptions for insisting that Republicans couldn't just "nuke" health care reform, but actually had an obligation to get reform passed. He also was booed for insisting that the prison at Guantanamo Bay needed to be shut down.

 
616Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:32
The Direction of the GOP: lining up to prove their obstructionist credentials.
Enzi is one of six senators - three Democrats and three Republicans - on the pivotal Senate Finance Committee who have been negotiating for months to come up with a health care bill that could garner bipartisan support.

He called for bipartisan collaboration and market-based health care solutions, and he drew applause when he spoke against a nationalized system.

"A government option is a monopoly, and it's no option," Enzi said to a thundering round of applause.

Even with passions so inflamed on both sides of the health care debate, Enzi said he believes Republicans and Democrats can work together on legislation for improved and affordable insurance coverage while avoiding a total government takeover of the system.

But state Rep. Timothy Hallinan, R-Gillette, called for Enzi to pull out of negotiations with the Democrats and vote against their health care reform plans. That remark earned a powerful volley of applause.

Later, during the audience question-and-answer portion, a Republican from Sheridan seconded Hallinan's position.

The Rev. Nicholas Voyadgis, a retired Anglican priest who touted his Republican credentials, told Enzi that while he appreciated his ability to compromise, he disliked the fact that President Barack Obama has singled out Enzi as "a Republican friend in Congress" he can work with.

It was Enzi's duty to his constituents to terminate negotiations, the man said to loud applause.

This time, Enzi responded. "If I hadn't been involved in this process as long as I have and to the depth as I have, you would already have national health care," he said.
Obstructionism is the new patriotism.
 
617Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:38
If what they are obstructing is marxism, damn skippy.
 
618DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 13:41
Ah yes, the "I'm taking my ball and going home" method of negotiation ALWAYS works best.

Moron.

 
619sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 19:02
If what they are obstructing is marxism, damn skippy.

And what is it, when they are obstructing common decency?
 
620DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 19:07
Perfectly normal?
 
621biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 19:19
This is just bizarre to me.

I can understand people freaking out and protesting when war, torture, death and mayhem are on the line.

I just don't get this kind of behavior when all we are trying to do is provide people health insurance.

You know their has to be a lot of money on the line for something so innocuous and seemingly virtuous get the big guns spending the bucks to whip up a frenzy over it.
 
622biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 19:22
The number I've heard is the insurance lobby is spending over a million a day.
 
623Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 19:40
bili

What don't you get?

There is so much big government empowering, marxist, death culture crap laden in the bill that this country will forever be ruined by this bill.

It really is the turning point where this country would no longer be recognizable by anyone who actually liked it in the Reagan years.

They are not angry just about insurance reform. Heck, if you just wanted to make insurance more fairly regulated you could get every one of those protesters on board.
 
624biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 19:46
Of course that not angry about insurance reform.

The insurers are scared of it, but they know quite well that simply regulatory reform wouldn't whip the wingnuts into a frenzy. They gotta make up all this marxist stuff to feed the likes of you. It's all fantasy. You are pwned.
 
625Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 19:51
"You don't understand, man! The fact that this guy is in the White House is PROOF! This crying man on FOX told me! Those marxist/fascist/communists are just using you for a power grab at taking away our guns and rights and women. Have you seen their women? Jesus, man."

"Hey, you gonna finish that sandwich?"
 
626DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 19:57
It's the fault of the Negroes. Obviously. The Nazi stuff is just projection for being mad that they didn't finish the job.
 
627Boldwin
      ID: 377302516
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 20:10
I've made the unacceptible features abundantly clear. I don't know why I need to repeat them, and they are not just amorphous cries about generalized fears of marxism or repeating what I've been told.

I predicted where they were going with euthanasia back during Terri Schiavo's days. I didn't get this from some insurance lobbyist group. In fact I have never received any email from anyone other than Obama on this subject for several years.

Do you have to be artificially whipped up into a frenzy to not want the governmnet having direct access to your bank account? How does anyone swallow that?

If I want a life-saving treatment and the government refuses, tell me who here claims the moral authority to insist that I not be allowed to pay for it out of my own money? Well you all do. Thank you for that deathwish.

I am not surprised that Tree and Sarge will happily tell a doctor with a conscience that he cannot practice if he will not abort, but the rest of you?

Would you mind if I ordered you to pull the switch in an electrocution?

I'm not even half done listing issues that any rational person would oppose and yet you all are masters of wishful thinking and somehow think that enabling language won't be used that way.

Amazing and scary.
 
628Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 21:18
I've made the unacceptible features abundantly clear. I don't know why I need to repeat them, and they are not just amorphous cries about generalized fears of marxism or repeating what I've been told.

see, but that's EXACTLY what it is.

I predicted where they were going with euthanasia back during Terri Schiavo's days. I didn't get this from some insurance lobbyist group. In fact I have never received any email from anyone other than Obama on this subject for several years.

and they (nazis, jews, blacks, muslims, commies, marxists, women on their period) haven't gone where you predicted, except in your mind.

Do you have to be artificially whipped up into a frenzy to not want the governmnet having direct access to your bank account? How does anyone swallow that?

i've had the government deposit my tax return into my account for years. So, i've obviously got no problem.

If I want a life-saving treatment and the government refuses, tell me who here claims the moral authority to insist that I not be allowed to pay for it out of my own money? Well you all do. Thank you for that deathwish.

this is all in your head. none of this has happened in the real world. none of this is on the books anywhere. THIS IS YOUR IMAGINATION.

I am not surprised that Tree and Sarge will happily tell a doctor with a conscience that he cannot practice if he will not abort, but the rest of you?

f*ck you. that is also in your imagination, because no one here ever said that. we've been over it, liar boy. never said it, and in fact, said just the opposite. just because you are likely clinically insane does not mean you can get away with lying about somebody.

Would you mind if I ordered you to pull the switch in an electrocution?

the kind of comment the crazy guy in times square makes. What does this have to do with anything?

I'm not even half done listing issues that any rational person would oppose and yet you all are masters of wishful thinking and somehow think that enabling language won't be used that way.

nothing you've listed or mentioned is real. out of curiosity, do you talk to your wife about this stuff that is in your brain? and she's still with you?

Amazing and scary.

yes, yes you are.

 
629sarge33rd
      ID: 297572620
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 21:57
I am not surprised that Tree and Sarge will happily tell a doctor with a conscience that he cannot practice if he will not abort, but the rest of you?

In fairness to the goofy one; I did somewhat imply a position which oculd be construed that way; when I said something like, "If yu dont want to practice medicine, get a different job."

Of course, the Right was perfectly within their rights to say exactly that same thing, re the working poor and the job they hold and/or the geography in which they live. Nevermind, the working poor dont have the funds available to move if they dont like it where they are. Nevermind, this is the same verbiage spewed BY the right, in regards to blue collar labor. THEN, it is perfectly acceptable apparenrtly. But apply to their cherished white collar professionals...and WHAM! You would have to be marxist to think that way.


You know what? Tree is right......screw you Boldy.
 
630Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 22:01
fair enough. perhaps you said it. I didn't :o)
 
631Boldwin
      ID: 11772621
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 22:07
You just defended the idea, Tree. For all I know you really don't even understand that that's the same thing.
 
632Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 22:31
You just defended the idea, Tree.

never once. i was VERY specific when i referred to pharmacists.

there was no defense of an idea - that way YOU taking something specific i said, and as usual, warping it and twisting it to fit your arguments.

 
633Boldwin
      ID: 11772621
      Thu, Aug 27, 2009, 00:32
No, you never supported the idea of forcing pro-life people to become involved in abortions or lose their jobs...yeah, yah did.
 
634Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Aug 27, 2009, 00:42
are you deliberately being obtuse, or are you just stupid, because those are the only two options here?
 
635Boldwin
      ID: 11772621
      Thu, Aug 27, 2009, 00:50
Projecting again.
 
636Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Aug 27, 2009, 00:53
pretty much done with this discussion. as the evidence already shows, this is just another thing you're being dishonest about.
 
637Boldwin
      ID: 11772621
      Thu, Aug 27, 2009, 00:58
Just leave. Anyone who can add two and two understands that you are for forcing people of conscience to lose their jobs over abortion.
 
638Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Aug 27, 2009, 11:36
Why do they say things like this?
 
639Boldwin
      ID: 11772621
      Thu, Aug 27, 2009, 11:54
Stupidity. Brain freeze.
 
640Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Aug 27, 2009, 12:01
From the mouths of babes.
 
641Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Aug 27, 2009, 12:28
shhhhhhhhhhhhhh
 
642Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Aug 27, 2009, 18:47
The tea baggers have their own Jeremiah Wright, it appears.
 
643Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Aug 27, 2009, 20:32
ah, good old Steven Anderson.

pretty sure we've featured him before on this site, when he claimed he was beaten up by the Border Patrol.
 
644Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 13:03
Stupidity. Brain freeze.

Apparently not.
 
645Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Aug 31, 2009, 13:15
Clearly she's not reading the bills she's voting on.
 
646Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, Sep 01, 2009, 15:21
Lynn Jenkins, our heroine in post 644, is on a roll...

VIDEO: Rep. Jenkins Laughs at Uninsured Single Mother, Son

good to see people getting angry about the politicians who are lying about health care reform in regards to why they claim we don't need it.
 
647Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Sep 04, 2009, 18:30
Huge outcry over Obama's talk to schoolchildren to get them to work hard and stay in school.

How far the GOP has fallen. "Don't listen to that man! He might be indoctrinating you!"
 
648Boldwin
      ID: 28825418
      Fri, Sep 04, 2009, 19:29
Asking them to write a list of what they plan on doing for Obama is not asking them to stay in school.

It is Hitler youth, more like it.
 
649Tree, in Texas
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Sep 04, 2009, 20:11
Asking them to write a list of what they plan on doing for Obama is not asking them to stay in school.

It is Hitler youth, more like it.


well, yes, of course.

i mean, if it were really what was happening.

there's nothing about "what they plan on doing for Obama" in this whole thing.

then again, i'd expect nothing else from a loon who thinks someone on a message board "turned him into Obama".

Lord knows as nuts and potentially dangerous as i think you are, i have far better things to do with my time than to "turn you into Obama."

 
650Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Sep 04, 2009, 20:56
One thing the wacky right does well: Sowing disrespect for Democratic presidents (while demanding unwavering respect for Republican ones).

Sad, really. Their cynicism has left them robotic hulks of former people, unable to think for themselves outside of the soundbites they are fed.

 
651Building 7
      ID: 43735169
      Fri, Sep 04, 2009, 21:57
I don't see what the big deal is. My wife is in the Baldwin camp, though. I don't know why he's doing it at noon EST , though. That's lunchtime.
 
652Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Sep 04, 2009, 22:15
Sure. That's when the kids are usually together. That way the schools don't have to lose much (or any) classroom time.

The President of the United States is speaking to kids about working hard in school. The fact that the far right has problems with this is pretty self-evident, IMO, of the loss of reality by them.
 
653Building 7
      ID: 43735169
      Fri, Sep 04, 2009, 22:31
There were no TV's in my lunchroom. Plus you couldn't hear diddly if there was one.
 
654Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Sep 04, 2009, 22:35
Fair enough. Same for mine, but I went to school quite some time ago.

These days most schools are equiped with AV equipment out the yazoo. Those that don't have the ability to watch will either skip it or find a way to make it happen. The talk isn't mandatory, not it required to be heard live.

Those screaming about this aren't doing so because they don't believe the kids would hear much of the President's words. Quite the opposite--they want to block the children from hearing President Obama entirely.
 
655Building 7
      ID: 43735169
      Fri, Sep 04, 2009, 23:09
In my school, it would be the kid with braces and the safety patrol guy who were in A/V. They would wheel in the equipment so we could watch a film. Maybe they can hook it up to HD.
 
656Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Sep 04, 2009, 23:14
We must have gone to very similar schools, B7.
 
657Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 00:47
For those wondering why noon... well, keep in mind there are people living on the west coast too. :)

My school is showing it at 10am PST. That's why its so late in the day.
 
658Tree, in Texas
      ID: 41371322
      Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 03:14
i'm sure all the right wing ninnies had a hissy fit when President Ronald Reagan addressed students in a nationally televised format in 1988 or when President George H W Bush addressed students nationally in 1991.

i mean, for pete's sake, this isn't the first time a president has addressed the nations students.

Granted, it's likely the first time a democrat president has, and it's certainly the first time a black president has, and i think those are the bigger problems for the Legion of Nutjobs.

i don't expect a rational response from Baldwin on this, since his head likely exploded after finding out his hero also addressed students in a televised format...
 
659Mith
      ID: 1871267
      Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 07:46
You know these people are out of their minds when they flip out over the President of the US challenging children to study and work hard in school and sugesting a lesson plan which includes a quiz on what he is asking of them.

There's no point in discussing them matter with anyone who sees it any other way. You people have gone off the deep end. It's not conservatism, its just plain hate.
 
660sarge33rd
      ID: 08457
      Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 08:04
re 658...C'mon Tree. THAT was different. THOSE Presidents, were Red-White-N-Blue Flag waving Americans. (ie, white males with an "R" after their names.)

Mith sums it up very nicely...." It's not conservatism, its just plain hate.", is spot on accurate.
 
661Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 10:35
#657: Great point! I'm clearly so EST-biased I never even thought of that.
 
662Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 11:21
Very sad state of affairs when asking school children to respect the President is considered unAmerican by a lot of the same people who considr themselves "real Americans" I'm as sick of them as I've ever been of the American hating Lefties. Thankfully, I think their numbers and influences serve about the same real purpose - to give the other side an easy target to hammer.
 
663Tree, in Texas
      ID: 41371322
      Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 11:34
although you don't post as much, i am glad to you posting now and then MBJ, because yours is a refreshing perspective in these parts.

and while i do think the majority of conservatives are more akin to you than Baldwin, people of his ilk are so damned loud, it can't help but scare the rational thinking of those.

my hope is that that they scream so loud, they go hoarse. my fear is that they scream so loud, others will think "well hey, if they're that passionate about it, they might be right."
 
664Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Sun, Sep 06, 2009, 00:54
They apparently feel that continuing to soil the water is a good thing.

Some conservative enraged

Florida GOP Chairman Jim Greer released a statement this week accusing Obama of using taxpayer money to "indoctrinate" children.

"As the father of four children, I am absolutely appalled that taxpayer dollars are being used to spread President Obama's socialist ideology," Greer said.

"The idea that school children across our nation will be forced to watch the president justify his plans ... is not only infuriating, but goes against beliefs of the majority of Americans, while bypassing American parents through an invasive abuse of power."


During the Clinton Administration I thought the GOP rage was a result of Clinton beating a decent, moderate man in George Bush, with his own womanizer reputation. But this stuff is making me re-think whether the GOP has got what it takes to continue as a national party, engaged on the issues.

 
665Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 12:34
Text of the speech released.

We need every single one of you to develop your talents, skills and intellect so you can help solve our most difficult problems. If you don’t do that – if you quit on school – you’re not just quitting on yourself, you’re quitting on your country.

Indoctrination!

Some members of the GOP have so demonized Obama that they simply don't want him near children at all.
 
666DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 13:50
Hey, I don't want anyone who's a registered sex offender in his native Mordor anywhere near MY kids either.
 
667Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 16:11
Finally, some sane words on the school speech, from Newt Gingrich
 
668bibA
      ID: 5283529
      Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 16:49
My guess is that B has yet to inform Newt that the speech actually is forcing students to become something akin to Hitler Youth.
 
669Tree, in Texas
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 16:57
Newt is a RINO!!!!!!
 
670Tree, in Texas
      ID: 41371322
      Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 18:39
re: 664.

Jim Greer has now actually READ the speech...

Now that he's read what the president plans to say, the Florida GOP chairman says he'll let his own kids watch.

"It's a good speech," Greer said. "It encourages kids to stay in school and the importance of education."


good to see common sense prevailing. sad to see that the guy will now probably get kicked out of the GOP.
 
671Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Sep 07, 2009, 18:55
Such a poor decision by Mr. Greer to read the speech. He needed to continue the tradition of his party and keep complaining about a speech he hadn't read or seen.
 
672Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Sep 09, 2009, 17:52
Michael Steele on health care:

 
673sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Thu, Sep 10, 2009, 10:24
Family Values?..CA Lawmaker resigns after recorded "sex comments"

In part:

SACRAMENTO, Calif. – Mike Duvall's second term as a member of the California Assembly was progressing pretty much like his first — in relative obscurity, with few notable legislative accomplishments.

The Orange County Republican is now a YouTube hit after KCAL-TV aired his racy comments about sexual conquests that were caught by an open microphone in a Capitol hearing room. Several media outlets said the comments referred to Duvall's affairs with a female lobbyist and another woman. He resigned Wednesday.

California's legislative leaders have been trying to focus on a number high-profile issues — from water policy to prisons to renewable energy — during the waning days of their legislative session. On Wednesday, they instead found themselves answering questions about a lawmaker who bragged about a spanking fetish, the type of underwear worn by a mistress and his apparent ability to carry on two extramarital affairs at once.

...

The lawmaker had received a 100 percent rating from Capitol Resource Institute, a conservative advocacy group, for his votes on legislation considered pro-family during the 2007-08 legislative session.


I'd surmise, their direction is straight into the sewer.
 
674Boldwin
      ID: 08311010
      Thu, Sep 10, 2009, 11:40
That speech was the way it was because they got caught and they met resistance.

If they hadn't gotten a firestorm of resistance that program was going to be, 'What can I do for our dear leader.' Typical cult-of-personality tactics.

It is still in the program that feds tried to cram down the local school boards throat. Do you think the NEA would have stood still for Bush asking school kids to read Bush hagiagraphies prior to Bush's speech to the schoolkids? The NEA opposed Bush's speech even without it. Dems in congress had a cow and set up a congressional inquiry into his program. But not this time.

This was part of a bigger plan. Not just schoolkids. It was coordinated. "What can I do for our dear leader?"

And just because they got caught and pulled back, this doesn't change anything. They will get away with everything they can get away with and they are relentless.

"Probe with the bayonet until you meet with steel". - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
 
675Seattle Zen
      ID: 238441010
      Thu, Sep 10, 2009, 12:28
What is it with the Republicans choosing politicians from Louisiana to provide the rebuttal? Bobby Jindal shot himself and his future in the foot with his response, he was awful.

The representative last night was equally bad. I found it quite telling that the President specifically requested that the debate stop making up grandious lies and misrepresentations during the debates: Death Panels, Government taking over health care... Yet, the Republican actually said that this plan is a "government take over of health care". This signals that the Republicans have no interest in being a part of this debate, none.

It's time to come up with a plan that will garner at least 51 votes and pass it with a reconciliation bill so as to avoid filibustering in the Senate. It should include the things Republicans want: some measure of tort reform, allowing insurance companies to compete nationally... and every other progressive plan the President detailed last night. Let the Republicans scream bloody murder, they have lost this debate, they have lost the support of the majority of Americans, it's time to move on.

On a side note, it has been YEARS since I've been inspired by a Presidental address, I had forgotten how good they can be.
 
676Tree, in Texas
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Sep 10, 2009, 12:31
On a side note, it has been YEARS since I've been inspired by a Presidental address, I had forgotten how good they can be.

while watching last night, i thought over and over, "THIS is the Obama I elected. THIS is the president he has to be."

essentially "cut the crap, let's do our freakin' jobs..."
 
677Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Sep 10, 2009, 12:36
The mistake the Obama Administration made, when taking office, was that he should turn into the serious president, working hard and getting things done kind of guy.

All campaign mode, all the time. It is the only way to get things done.
 
678sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Thu, Sep 10, 2009, 14:18
re 674...ARE YOU INSANE?????? lmao Now you claim the speech was changed BECAUSE of the Rights unfounded whining and complaining?????????

You HAVE, absolutely, with out hesitation I can state...you HAVE gone totally off your rocker.
 
679boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Sep 10, 2009, 15:42
for lack of places to put this, who gets what and how they vote.
 
680biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Thu, Sep 10, 2009, 16:14
Interesting. I've seen this before. Not a perfect correlation, but pretty lopsided.

I'm wondering if that will change with a democratically controlled congress and white house. My guess is it won't.
 
681Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Sep 11, 2009, 12:47
Scumbags who exploit 9/11 to attack the sitting President in the name of "patriotism" are abject vile pieces of sh!t.
 
682Boldwin
      ID: 18451112
      Fri, Sep 11, 2009, 13:45
Can you feel the post-partisanship? Drink it in.
 
683Tree, in Texas
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Sep 11, 2009, 13:51
your slogans are cute, Baldwin. empty, but cute.
 
684Boldwin
      ID: 18451112
      Fri, Sep 11, 2009, 13:58
You were going to ignore me, you troll. Remember?
 
685Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Sep 11, 2009, 14:08
Please don't bother.
 
686Pancho Villa
      ID: 578161118
      Fri, Sep 11, 2009, 19:17
The following is unsourced, although I tend to believe it.

Wilson Shouts ‘You Lie' After Wife Fakes Orgasm
Breach of Congressional Decorum, Experts Say


Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) courted controversy again today as he reportedly shouted "You lie" during a sexual encounter in which his wife pretended to have an orgasm.

While details of Rep. Wilson's latest outburst are sketchy at best, congressional experts say that it is totally against the decorum of the House of Representatives to speak out during a spouse's faked orgasm.

But the South Carolina congressman got a vote of support from a fellow Republican lawmaker, Sen. John Ensign (R-NV), who told reporters, "It's so rare for a Republican politician to have sex with his own wife, we should applaud it when it happens."

In a related story, President Obama said that Rep. Wilson's outburst during his speech Wednesday night was "productive," adding, "Joe Wilson highlighted the need for mental health care."
 
687Tree, in Texas
      ID: 41371322
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 00:31
i've been reading some good columns from Bud Kennedy while i've been here.

this one was typical of many of them...
 
688sarge33rd
      ID: 12826128
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 09:26
re 686

LOVE IT!!!
 
689Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 10:45
"All I know is, the black guy wins, and suddenly these nuts are out there on TV and radio preaching to long-haul truck drivers all over the country," Daniels said.

I'm sorry but I'm not ready to sign on to that. I'll acknowledge my own naivete to the extent that I thought the political right would better apply it's own standards of patriotism and respect for the POTUS and police it's own rather than stand by while the sector of mainstream news media they control provides a voice to (thereby legitimizing) the rabid hate-fringe. This has enabled a direct (and largely deliberate, I believe) affront to the goal of seeing conservatives work together with liberals to improve policy in a Democrat controlled legislature. I was naive to think the opportunity to have an impact on Democtrat policy would be more appealing than blind partisan obstruction at every turn. But the rightist zeitgeist (that's right) has shown the folly in affording them that benefit of doubt.

However I refuse to go along with the notion that this is all driven by racism. Yes, I know it's out there and that to at least some extent, it is a contributing factor. But I have enough faith in modern American culture to believe that the racist and racially insensitive expressions we do hear are incidential and mostly limited to certain contained pockets of society and not particularly pervasive.
 
690sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 10:51
obviously, as with any generalization, there are multiple individual exceptions. That said, in the South...racism is VERY much alive and well. In one encounter with a GA native; I was asked if I knew the difference between "you yanks" and "we southerners". Their distinction was that, "Here in the South, our "N-----" know their place."

A different face is put on it during the day, but get into the local watering holes, and watch/listen in the darker corners; and it *IS* a very common and real presence.
 
691Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 11:05
Yes I know it's there. I have an older relative (lifetime New Yorker) who declared at a family gathering last summer that he will not have a black man as his president. But I just don't believe these sentiments reflect or direct modern mainstream culture.
 
692Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 11:22
I agree. The racism angle might work for a small number, but I firmly believe that the GOP would be going just as nuts, in the exact same way, if we had Hillary. Would those people suddenly be sexist, then?

Yahoos aren't all racist. But they are all yahoos.
 
693sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 11:40
Yahoos aren't all racist. But they are all yahoos.

Good point. :)
 
694Tree, in Texas
      ID: 41371322
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 12:18
However I refuse to go along with the notion that this is all driven by racism. Yes, I know it's out there and that to at least some extent, it is a contributing factor. But I have enough faith in modern American culture to believe that the racist and racially insensitive expressions we do hear are incidential and mostly limited to certain contained pockets of society and not particularly pervasive.

i used to have that faith, but the number of people on board the "he's a muslim" and "he wasn't born in america" train makes me believe that racism - no matter how subtle - plays a role.

i grew up in the south, then spent my adulthood in the northeast. the difference in attitudes toward blacks, hispanics, asians, etc, is obvious.

are these outbursts and reaction toward Obama "driven" by racism? i doubt it. but does racism play a role? i believe it does.
 
695Seattle Zen
      ID: 238441010
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 13:03
but I firmly believe that the GOP would be going just as nuts, in the exact same way, if we had Hillary.

It would be worse, much worse. And it wouldn't be sexism, it would be, as Jung would say, a deep seated anti-Clinton archetype resonating deep in the conservative soul. And when I say deep, I'm talking two millimeters below the surface.
 
696biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 15:35
I have to think racism plays a big part in the south and, to a lesser extent, the midwest.

Even though I'm pretty vocal in my liberal views, I still had people spouting racist epithets in my presence in both places.

I don't think it's the driving force, but I do think it is used to accentuate distrust of the "different".

The geographic differences we see among the birthers, with vast swathes of the southern population simply not believing their eyes, I would certainly attribute to racism.
 
697Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 17:41
These were widely distributed at the tea party event today in DC:

 
698Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 17:44
Wasn't someone arguing fairly recently that no one is calling Obama a terrorist?
 
699walk
      ID: 13715169
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 18:15
I just read about the tea party in DC today. NYT said "tens of thousands." They are protesting big govt, govt intrusion and treading on the constitution. I am a little ignorant, but what has the Obama admin done in the past six months that has led to treading on the constitution? How come these protests did not happen when the previous administration tread on our civil liberties? Or is this just a culmination of folks being mad about a recession, high unemployment, and continuation of two wars?
 
700Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Sat, Sep 12, 2009, 19:46
He's certainly been busy:

 
701walk
      ID: 403503014
      Sun, Sep 13, 2009, 12:06
Maureen Dowd calls it like it is really is, it's cos he's Black. Everything else is just a smokescreen.

Dowd on South Carolina Politics
 
702walk
      ID: 403503014
      Sun, Sep 13, 2009, 12:07
And to be a little fair and balanced, Frank Rich accurately states what Obama could have done different to deal with the summer of silliness.
 
703Boldwin
      ID: 178581323
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 01:01
Liberals could start by showing some us of that "post-racial" they were advertizing when they sold Obama.

The only reason people oppose Obamas' ideas is because they are racists. Oh, really?

No, otherwise they would be happy to skip down the path of Frank Marshall, Gramsci, Alinsky...etc. Puhleeze.
 
704sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 10:29
cant help but wonder as I look at the pic with this article on msn:



Thousand Protest Govt Spending

The fella with the sign:

"Trade Freedom for Security and You Will Have Neither"

Where was he with this sign during the previous administration? For that matter, where were ANY of these people, during the previous administrations unchecked and unparalleled spending?
 
705boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 10:37
Where was he with this sign during the previous administration?

actually i do remember people with sign like this during the previous administration. Or at least similar ones of quotes or misquotes of ben franklin.
 
706sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 16:05
I do too boikin. But those were Democrats, and while holding that sign, the Reps were calling the protestor a traitor, anti-American, etc etc. The difference is (other then it now being a Rep protesting), what the Dems were protesting WERE violations of the Constitution. Here, the Reps are protesting premised on a lie, fueled and fed by lies they buy into, simply because they are about a Dem.
 
707boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Sep 14, 2009, 17:42
Here, the Reps are protesting premised on a lie, fueled and fed by lies they buy into, simply because they are about a Dem.

I have no idea if they are fueled by lies or not but Ben Franklin's quote is applicable to both protests, though the man with the sign is not quite correct.
 
708Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 12:58
Why do they say things like this?

 
709Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 14:27
I'm sure she makes sure to point out how many black friends she has when she meets a black person.

Maybe this is her site?
 
710sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 16:38
re 707...yes you do have an idea. Palin and her "Death Panel" BS, the insistence that the reforms create free medical care for illegals at taxpayer expense, et al. You most certainly (or should at any rate), know of these lies and their status as such.
 
711biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 17:19
The collage of hate.

Racism:




Ignorance:



Assassination Threats:


 
712Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 17:40
Those pictures are terrifying. These people just need to be ignored. They are a combination of the stupid and the crazy and bring nothing of value to any debate on national policy. I would bet that a polling of this group of people would reveal 90% believe WMD's were found in Iraq and that Osama bin Laden was paid by Saddam Hussein.
 
713biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 19:24
I don't know. I afraid they may be like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction - "I will not be ignored!"

Bunny boilin' time.
 
714Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 22:29
Financial problems for Operation Rescue

 
715Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 23:31
I guess when some implied race baiting doesn't work, the only thing the wacky Right thinks to do is turn the volume up to 11.

Limbaugh is already there, of course, making sure we know that this schoolyard bullying is all Obama's fault. If there is one thing Limbaugh wants to teach us, it is that the real problem in America is that whites are the real racial victims in this post-Bush era.

I know--I shouldn't be shocked. But I am. Have they no shame at all? When whipped up white yahoos start Limbaugh inspired beatdowns of blacks (Yelling "ACORN!" the whole time) aren't we going to remember where to draw the lines from?
 
716Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 23:49
How the Right Wing noise machine strokes itself: Case file "How many teabaggers?".

Love the finish on that article.

But they most important point, I think, is that there really is no downside for the far Right to out-and-out lie. They literally can't lose any more followers at this point.
 
717Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 00:13
and the followers they do have, are more than happy to go along with the lie, pass the lie on themselves, or make up their own lies.
 
718Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 08:06
 
719Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 08:35
What Teabagger Signs Say Vs. What They Mean

the main reason i'm posting this is because, quite frankly, without the real "what it said" and the jokey (and really, not that funny) "what it meant" labels, you honestly wouldn't know which sign was real, and which sign wasn't.

that's some pretty scary $hit right there.
 
720Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 09:42
Schoolyard bully alert: Obama "threw the first punch" with Joe Wilson.
 
721Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 09:47
the black guy always starts it.
 
722Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 12:33
Actually that sign applies to plenty of race hustlers and felons in Acorn in a double entendre.
 
723Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 13:22
Where's the sign that applies to the race baiters on the right?
 
724Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 15:17
Seriously, find any opposition in that crowd that wouldn't be there just the same if Obama was white. Imagine commie Bernie Sanders had been elected. You don't think those same people would be there protesting?
 
725biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 15:37
Uh. Yes. Again, as stated above, I certainly think there would be opposition, and the primary driver is not race, but they are definitely using it to get out the rabid whack-job racists.

After looking at the signs, how you can deny there is a racial component to this is simply amazing.

Take off your blindfold, and go stare at 711 again and then rethink. Then come back and say there is no racial component to this.
 
726Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 15:58
Seriously, find any opposition in that crowd that wouldn't be there just the same if Obama was white. Imagine commie Bernie Sanders had been elected.

it's fine to oppose Obama. no one here has issues with that.

it's not fine to be racist about it, and if you think those protesters would have signs about "Lyin' Africans", "Robbin' for the 'Hood", and that disgusting picture of Obama in what i presume is someone's notion of someone in some African tribe must wear, if they were protesting a white man, then any shred of credibility you might have still been clinging to would be gone.

Then again, i've long maintained on these boards I think you're a racist, or, at the very least a bigot.

prove me wrong. tell us those signs above are racist and disgusting and you're actually disgusted yourself that those protesters would be using such imagery.

i don't believe that you will.
 
727bibA
      Leader
      ID: 261028117
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 16:16
er, maybe those signs are a Dem plant, or better yet, put their by Acorn.

Just anticipating the response to 726.

 
728Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 16:37
now. now. Let's give Baldwin a fair chance to denounce those racist signs.
 
729sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 17:53
yeah bibA. Give him a fair trial, THEN hang him. ;)
 
730Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 18:43
no, seriously. i could be wrong. it wouldn't be the first time. Let's give Baldwin the benefit of the doubt and let him take a second look and see if he denounces those signs as racist.
 
731biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 18:48
Mark Williams, #2 teabagger, slithers off the teabagging express, wipes his chin, and proceeds to spew racist epithets on CNN.



"Indonesian Muslim turned welfare Thug"

"Racist in Chief"

That's your spokesmen, Baldwin. Are you backing that vile crap?
 
732Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Sep 16, 2009, 21:42
#730: I agree completely. Baldwin did eventually come around on the birther question, after digesting what I presume was a lot of reading on the subject, not all of which I think he would have read without coming across links here.

I would hope he would do the same on what is clearly a racist element within the teabagging communities.
 
733Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 04:56
There are one in 200 signs I would ask the sign holder to put down. The other 199 make more sense than all of you put together.
 
734Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 04:58
And no I didn't exactly 'come around' on the birth certificate question. You will note that the question is still completely unanswered by Obama.
 
735tree on the treo
      ID: 287212811
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 05:30
I'm glad you think it takes 199 of your peers to have the same amount of sense that a half-dozen of us here do.

but that's still a refusal to condemn the racist notions on those signs.

you nicely skirted the issue. but you didn't specifically condemn the racsim.

speaks volumes on your attitudes toward race and your opinion on yourself.
 
736Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 09:01
An endorsement of hate-filled, racist signs as clear as evidence as we'll ever get that Boldwin himself is both hate-filled and racist. His posts over the last year, which have pretty much exclusively focused on his hate of everything Obama, made clear the case for the former but I always gave him the benefit of the doubt on the latter.

Boldwin, please pack your knives and go.
 
737Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 11:15
The voice of the proud American political right:

 
738Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 14:46
Razor

I didn't endorse hate-filled, racist signs and you know it if you spent more than 5 seconds thinking before writing that post.
 
739Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 15:14
you sure as $hit didn't condemn them either. you brushed off that opportunity, but i'm all for giving you another shot.

as i said earlier:
prove me wrong. tell us those signs above are racist and disgusting and you're actually disgusted yourself that those protesters would be using such imagery.

i am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but like i also said earlier, i don't think you'll denounce the signs and the protesters holding them, and i don't think you're the least bit disgusted by them.
 
740Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 16:06
Why is Conor Friedersdorf the exception and not the norm on the American political right these days?
Why I Have Contempt for Rush Limbaugh

One forgets just how odious the man can be, the depths to which he’ll sink — and then he says this:
It’s Obama’s America, is it not? Obama’s America, white kids getting beat up on school buses now. You put your kids on a school bus, you expect safety but in Obama’s America the white kids now get beat up with the black kids cheering, “Yay, right on, right on, right on, right on,” and, of course, everybody says the white kid deserved it, he was born a racist, he’s white. Newsweek magazine told us this. We know that white students are destroying civility on buses, white students destroying civility in classrooms all over America, white congressmen destroying civility in the House of Representatives.
Let’s start with the outright mendacity. “When does Rush Limbaugh misrepresent the truth?” commenters ask. Here’s an undeniable example: “… of course, everybody says the white kid deserved it, he was born a racist, he’s white. Newsweek magazine told us this.”

Everyone says he deserved to get beat up? This isn’t hyperbole. Literally no one has said that this white kid deserved to be beat up, or that he was born a racist. Point me to anyone in the media who said that, Mr. Limbaugh. Show me where Newsweek said that white people deserve to be beaten up on busses. This isn’t an exaggeration. There is no grain of truth here. It is a brazen, outright lie, unbefitting anyone with personal integrity.

Now consider the gravity. This isn’t merely a lie — it is a lie that, if credulously received by its audience, is going to heighten racial tensions and mistrust in the United States. Rod Dreher gets it right:
Look, I think it’s important to talk about black male violence, or at least as important as it is to talk about any other important social trend. I don’t think we should be squeamish about discussing it in a responsible and fair-minded way, despite what the politically correct say. But good grief, Limbaugh is up to something wicked. He’s plainly trying to rally white conservatives into thinking that now that we have a black president, blacks are rising up to attack white kids! Christ have mercy, what is wrong with these people?

And finally, note the hypocrisy. Mr. Limbaugh accuses others of exacerbating racial tensions and obsessing about race. Sometimes he is right to do so. Yet here he is obsessing about race and ratcheting up racial tensions. It is difficult to think of hypocrisy more abhorrent.
I hasten to add that this whole critique applies whether or not the bus incident in question was a racially motivated hate crime. I take no position on that matter whatsoever.

Already Mr. Limbaugh’s behavior is raising the ire of folks who already dislike him, but this transgression against honesty and prudence is so obvious and grave that his audience members should take it upon themselves to contact the talk radio host, politely articulate why his commentary in this instance is so irresponsible, and request that he never engage in such behavior again. It is Mr. Limbaugh’s listeners who have the most pull here. Those who say nothing, and continue tuning into this kind of rhetoric, share partial responsibility for worsening the country in which they live, though the bulk of responsibility will always reside with the millionaire race agitator himself.
 
741Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 16:34
Boldwin did endorse them. He said he would not ask the protesters to put any of them down and that they made more sense than everyone here put together. Thanks for providing your approval on signs like these, in addition to the ones biliruben posted above:







 
742Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 16:34









 
743Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 17:04
Razor: Boldwin did endorse them. He said he would not ask the protesters to put any of them down and that they made more sense than everyone here put together.

i hate to defend Baldwin, but that's not what he did or said. he said There are one in 200 signs I would ask the sign holder to put down.

now, he did not say which signs he would ask them to put down, and until he explicitly answers my challenge, it doesn't look good on his part.

so, here again, for your sake Baldwin:
tell us those signs above are racist and disgusting and you're actually disgusted yourself that those protesters would be using such imagery.

Do it. Can you?

 
744boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 17:24
some of those signs are pretty bad, but do you really find the Venezuela one offensive?
 
745Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Sep 17, 2009, 19:55
That's a good point. I'm not bothered by the Kenya ones myself--they obviously are from the birther crowd, and the signs themselves aren't racist, IMO.
 
746Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 10:46
The birther movement is racially motivated. Would it exist if a man who did not have a foreign born parent was elected President? If he were not black or had Muslim heritage? If John McCain was elected, would his legitimacy as a natural born citizen have been questioned?

Regarding the Venezuela sign, there sure are a lot of other socialist countries in Europe that could have taken Venezuela's place on that sign, but those countries are predominantly white. What's the message there?
 
747Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 11:00
In the case of Venezuela I think it's a direct reference to their status as rivals of the US since the ride of Hugo Chavez, whom some teabaggers apparently believe Obama is in league with to persue some anti-American agenda. I don't think there a necessary race connection there. Obama is similarly mocked with hammer and sickle symbols, which is obviously not racially motivated.
 
748Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 11:08
i suppose i'm disappointed in Baldwin. i guess i wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, and show simply he didn't harbor the same racist feelings as those folks holding those signs.

his refusal to proclaim those signs as racist, and his refusal to show disgust toward them, is sadly telling.

i feel like he's had fair chance and ample opportunity to tell us those signs above are racist and disgusting, and decline to do so.

i would never have been happier to have been wrong about Baldwin.
 
749Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 11:27
I think it's a mistake to say that calling Obama a communist or a socialist is obviously not racially motivated. I think it's more accurate to say that it is not necessarily racially motivated. There is an inherent distrust among some for Obama that is in no small part influenced by his skin color, his funny name and his ancestry. That distrust manifests itself in calling him everything from a Nazi to a communist to a terrorist, among other things. Would John Kerry, trying to pass similar legislation, have been called these things?
 
750Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 11:39
I'm pretty sure Kerry has also been called a socialist, stemming from the same extremist line of thinking that Baldwin has long espoused in this forum, that the outgrowth of radical 1960s liberalism will eventually lead to world government fascism.

In that worldview, there are two types of liberals, those who understand and support the agenda of modern progressivism and those who go along haplessly duped into believing liberal policies serve the common good. Kerry may have bee regarded as the latter type, a patsy. I actually believe Obama's intelligence is more respected than Kerry's by many on the teabag fringe. No doubt there's racism mixed in there, but its much more complex than a broad stroke.

I believe I've said before, I think the primary reason for the increase of wingnut ideology in the public discourse is the rise of the rightist media and the fearmongering hyperbole it passes off as journalism.
 
751sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 12:08
I hesitate to even go down this road, but with all those tea-bagger signs implying a tie between Obama and Nazism; I will pose this counter potential.

The Nazi party was able to assume power, by uniting a fragmented German populace behind a powerful personality and creating a "common enemy" by pointing at the Jewish Community and saying it's all their fault. (Grossly over simplified I know, but reasonably accurate none the less.)

Now we see, the political right in this country, espousing essentially similar views as put forth by the early Nazi Party (Us vs them, REAL Germans, etc etc) and the right has snagged onto ACORN and similar organizations as the 'target' for their almost "mentally unhinged" vitriol.

Elsewhere on this forum, was posted a piece lambasting Limbaugh and other talking heads, for flat out telling lies and fueling the fires of racism. Has the Republican Party fallen so far, so hard, that they feel the need to take pages from the "Nazi playbook" as it were, in order to galvanize themselves??
 
752DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 14:23
Not all of them, no. The loud ones? Pretty much.
 
753boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 15:45
The Nazi party was able to assume power, by uniting a fragmented German populace behind a powerful personality and creating a "common enemy" by pointing at the Jewish Community and saying it's all their fault. (Grossly over simplified I know, but reasonably accurate none the less.)

Now we see, the political right in this country, espousing essentially similar views as put forth by the early Nazi Party (Us vs them, REAL Germans, etc etc) and the right has snagged onto ACORN and similar organizations as the 'target' for their almost "mentally unhinged" vitriol.


I think this a correct analogy, It is by product of democracy. But the analogy crosses political boundaries. Everyone wants to be on the winning team and if you ain't yelling you ain't trying...
 
754walk
      ID: 147451314
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 15:51
I think the Kenya signs are racist. I agree with Razor #746 and the McCain analogy is a good one. The birther argument is racially motivated (as if it is not?). The accusation that Obama is introducing fascism and socialism and is somehow engaging in anti-American practices is about as fringe as it gets.
 
755Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 16:09
McCain's citizenship was never in doubt.

Just because Obama is black doesn't mean that personal attacks on him is racially motivated. The Kenya arguments are much more to do with a non-citizen parent than anything else. If his father was Irish I think he'd still be getting the kind of hateful (non-racial) crap he's getting.

Bill and Hilary Clinton had the exact same kind of crap thrown at them.

We need to be careful in throwing around the "racist" label, IMO, because we risk missing the larger and more important reasons. Sometimes labeling people "racist" is just a means to box them in. The teabaggers as a group are far more complex than that.
 
756walk
      ID: 147451314
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 16:24
I see what you are saying, PD, but I do feel that he's getting this treatment cos they don't want a Black guy running the country. I think it's that simple for SOME of them.

McCain apparently was born in the Panama canal or something which some dumb technicality about his citizenship could be used as analogous to Obama's. Both are dumb arguments, yet Obama continues to get hit with this stuff.

I think Bill and Hillary got crazy crap thrown at them, but this feels almost random. At the end of the day, I think the personal attacks are racially motivated. I don't think all teabaggers are slinging racist attacks, but the racist attacks are racist.
 
757Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 16:35
McCain's citizenship was never in doubt.

Neither was Obama's, except to some fringe group. McCain's birth was just as questionable as Obama's, if not more so.

Just because Obama is black doesn't mean that personal attacks on him is racially motivated. The Kenya arguments are much more to do with a non-citizen parent than anything else. If his father was Irish I think he'd still be getting the kind of hateful (non-racial) crap he's getting.

You think he'd be getting "Go back to Ireland" crap if his dad were Irish?

Look, not all of these teabaggers are racist, but enough are and have expressed their contempt for having a black guy with a Muslim, Kenyan father in the Big Chair. No, they don't say "I hate black people and I hate having a black President." Instead, they make references to his heritage, which has never happened for any other President that I can remember. Maybe Kennedy.

Bill and Hillary were not regularly called Nazis, socialists and communists, depicted with a Hitler moustache or were accused of being in league with Osama bin Laden.
 
758Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 16:57
You think he'd be getting "Go back to Ireland" crap if his dad were Irish?

Absolutely. Never forget: We're dealing with yahoos. Bill and Hilary were, indeed, called all sorts of things.
 
759Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 18:20
McCain's citizenship was never in doubt. - PD

OMG

Dems in congress called congressional hearings on the matter. Maybe to deflect from the one they really should have had questions for.
 
760Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 18:21
Instead, they make references to his heritage, which has never happened for any other President that I can remember. Maybe Kennedy.
- Razor

That couldn't have anything to do with the fact that we've never elected a communist before, do you think?

 
761Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 18:24
I'm actually disturbed by the posters putting the little Hitler mustaches on him.

Much more effective just to quote him and his commie czars and all the commies in his past.
 
762Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 18:32
and there you have it, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Baldwin's refusal to condemn the racist signs, and basically acknowledging his own racism toward black people.

do you wear the white hood in public, or keep it in your closet?
 
763Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 18:51
Tree, I don't respond to you because you are a troll.
 
764Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 19:08
Bili made the same challenge, and you didn't respond to his either.

sorry man, you can't call me a troll here. i was very careful in my challenge to you - it was a simple one, and there was no name-calling.

in fact, when Razor was quick to call you a racist, i *defended* you, right there in post #743.

i gave you the benefit of the doubt more than once.

heck, i'll offer you that benefit of the doubt again, retract my statement in post 762, and donate 10 bucks to rotoguru in your name if you tell us those signs above are racist and disgusting and you're actually disgusted yourself that those protesters would be using such imagery.
 
765Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 20:14
Find me bili's challenge. I'd respond to that.
 
766Boldwin
      ID: 208211417
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 20:45
Bili, if you personally still insist I parse every sentence in that video I will, tho of course no matter what I say, the only reason this troll in #764 wants it discussed is to use it as a troll trampoline.

Just to address the points raised in your part of the post, if you don't want someone calling your president an 'Indonesian Muslim turned...'

then don't elect a former Indonesian muslim.

If you don't want your president accused of having turned to welfare intimidation then don't elect one who spent his career training chicago style thugs to intimidate banks into issuing the the bad loans that destroyed our economy.

These are just factual statements and the second half in particular is central to what America should be focusing on when it comes to Obama.
 
767Pancho Villa
      ID: 20823188
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 20:55
, if you don't want someone calling your president an 'Indonesian Muslim turned...'

then don't elect a former Indonesian muslim.


Are you kidding me? He was 6 years old when his mom and stepfather hauled him off to Indonesia. You act like it was the conscious decision of an adult instead of a small child.

What did you expect him to do, break one of your precious 10 commandments and not honor thy mother?

You are a bigot, and you don't even have any foundation for being one in this case. Ot's not like you hate black people because a black guy raped your daughter or beat up your son. You're a bigot because it's fashionable with your lunatic fringe.
 
768Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 21:59
I think secretly in their hearts they know that their god doesn't exist, and so they'll never have to face judgment for their lies, bigotry, and hatred. (You know, the patriotic pro-American God who wants the poor to take care of themselves through free market means and to stay away from forming their own unions and grassroots organizations).
 
769DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 22:08
Thank God the lunatic is still here to remind us of the danger that America faces from within.
 
770Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 23:03
Bili, if you personally still insist I parse every sentence in that video I will, tho of course no matter what I say, the only reason this troll in #764 wants it discussed is to use it as a troll trampoline.

sorry Baldwin, again, there's no trolling here.

i gave you the benefit of the doubt.

i defended you, which i likely have never done before.

my challenge was an honest and legitimate one, and i wanted to be wrong.

i begged you to prove me wrong, but you refused.

you're a racist and by that, you're a disgusting excuse for a human being.
 
771Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 10:25
He's not a racist.
 
772Pancho Villa
      ID: 20823188
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 11:25
He's not a racist

Maybe not in the classical sense. I'm sure he would support Condi Rice over John Kerry. Alberto Gonzalez over Dick Durbin.

But he's shown a high level of bigotry and prejudice, especially when it comes to Muslims, Mormons, the non-religious and non-Americans(atcually the US)
in general.

How else to conclude supporting the statement:

if you don't want someone calling your president an 'Indonesian Muslim turned...'

then don't elect a former Indonesian muslim.


Put aside for a moment that Obama is neither Indonesian nor Muslim. The crux of the statement is to negatively portray Indonesians and Muslims. Negative portrayals, based on generics with no specifics, is the purest definition of bigotry.

 
773Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 11:41
He's not a racist.

after doing a bit more research, studying the definitions of terms, looking at different arguments and such, i am inclined to agree with you.

rather than being a racist, Baldwin is a bigot, and he's a bigot with racist leanings.

i don't believe - and i hope i'm right here - that Baldwin believes white people are superior to other races just because of skin tone. that alone disqualifies him from the racist label i attributed to him, so i'm willing to back off that statement.

however he does fit the classic definition of a bigot, and his refusal to condemn racist notions from others adds a definite component of racism to his bigotry.

so, racial bigot will do just fine.
 
774Boldwin
      ID: 308291912
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 13:30
See, that's the only reason Tree was desperate to bait me. He just wanted a wall to smear mud on.

Neither Indonesian or muslim is a race of course...

And it isn't bigoted to expect an American leader to produce a cultural outcome that Americans are comfortable with. Ammerica doesn't have a marxist soul so the vision of his marxist birth father, his marxist mother, the marxist mentor in his youth, the radical mentors in his college, the radical mentors who set him up in his career, the radical mentors in his church...

...this guy hasn't got a chance of producing a culture compatible with America. Unless he were to miraculously break free of every influence he's ever known.
 
775Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 13:47
of every influence he's ever known

Pathetic.

You mean of every influence which you care to acknowledge.
 
776Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 14:03
And it isn't bigoted to expect an American leader to produce a cultural outcome that Americans are comfortable with.

that's not why you're a bigot.
 
777sarge33rd
      ID: 17681812
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 14:17
And it isn't bigoted to expect an American leader to produce a cultural outcome that Americans are comfortable with.

Obama win the election. It isn't unreasonable then, to assume that more Americans ARE comfortable with he and his past, than are not. This by extension would mean, that YOU and your ilk; are being entirely unreasonable.
 
778Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 14:39
more Americans ARE comfortable with he and his past

It was all kept from them Sarge. The mainstream media never uttered a peep about Rev Wright and William Ayers you see. They didn't know he's half Kenyan or that he lived in Indonesia or that his father listed him as a Muslim on his kindergarten enrollment form.
 
779Boldwin
      ID: 308291912
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 14:41
He wasn't advertised as who he is.

Just for show he keeps a public distance from all his mentors.
 
780Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 14:47
You mean like Mitch McConnell?
 
781Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 14:48
the MSM also never reported that Obama was black either, or that he'd be the first black president if elected. that also galls Baldwin...
 
782Boldwin
      ID: 308291912
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 14:49
When I get the time I'll write up a script of Obama speaking the truth ala Jim Carrey's 'Liar Liar' movie.

And tell me that man gets elected.
 
783Pancho Villa
      ID: 13841916
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 17:04
And it isn't bigoted to expect an American leader to produce a cultural outcome that Americans are comfortable with.

What incredible arrogance. What makes you an expert on cultural outcomes that Americans are comfortable with? You promote a culture of incivility, exclusion, intolerance and hatred. You and your media heroes are the poster boys(and poster girls in Coulter's case) for bigotry.
 
784Boldwin
      ID: 308291912
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 17:34
Arrogance is waltzing into the presidency of the country that fought the cold war against marxism for decades, and just expecting to bum-rush that country into socialism without a fight, just cause you are so charming and 'I have a gift, Harry'.
 
785Pancho Villa
      ID: 13841916
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 18:23
No, arrogance is claiming Obama waltzed into the presidency, when he did no such thing. Gerald Ford waltzed into the presidency.

Your marxism obsessions are a pathetic attempt to change the subject, which is the bigotry and racism that emanates brightly from the now completely perverted fringe that comically call themselves conservatives.
 
786Boldwin
      ID: 308291912
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 19:11
Oh yeah, we would have adopted China-care decades ago but he was yellow.

Yeah, we would have adopted Cuba-care decades ago but he was a latino.

Get a clue. Marxism doesn't care and it isn't healthy.
 
787sarge33rd
      ID: 568141920
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 21:15
Nor does Obama promote the ultimate ideal of Marxism. It's simply a soundbite, an allegation with no factual basis, which the rabid foaming-at-the-mouth right tries to pawn off as fact.

Not all things charitable, are Marxist in their objective. Sometimes, ? Sometime Boldy...it's simple humanity at work. (Or as some might call it "Christian Compassion".)
 
788Boldwin
      ID: 308291912
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 21:20
RobbinHood wasn't a christian.
 
789DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Sep 19, 2009, 23:17
But the Sheriff of Nottingham was.
 
790walk
      ID: 403503014
      Sun, Sep 20, 2009, 09:15
Herbert on Race Issue

I agree with what Bob Herbert has to say about this.

Frank Rich on Beck
 
791Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 12:25
Why do they say things like this?

 
792boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 12:30
I am not really sure what your point was, where questioning why the question was asked or the answer to the question?
 
793Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 12:37
Funny Steele sounds so completely absurd to me that I have trouble believing that the question in post 792 is serious.
 
794boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 12:46
I don't know seemed reasonable to me, I saw that whole interview and the question seemed out of context in relation to the rest of the interview.
 
795Razor
      ID: 14791320
      Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 13:05
It is absurd. Steele raised the question as to why a black governor with low polling numbers is being asked to not run again and why white governors with low polling numbers are not. I don't think you are going to succeed in insinuating Obama had racist motivations against a fellow black man.
 
796Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 13:12
Let me get this straight - Steele says that since Paterson is "one of only two black governors", its reasonable to question whether any criticism he is singled out for might have something to do with the color of his skin - and this sounds reasonable to you?

Isn't that exactly the opposite of what every single person on the political right says about their criticism of President Obama (except of course for the avowed racists)?
 
797boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 13:15
After re listening too it does come off differently then when you are watching it live, then again what was the point the question? What did you expect steele to say? They can do what they want, next question. If it had been the new jersey governor that had been asked to not run they would have never asked him what he thought. Why was the question not asked directly to Obama?
 
798Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 13:16
I guess we should now add "Uncle Tom" to the list of things the political right accuses President Obama of being. It'll fit nicely right next to Black Liberation Theologist.
 
799Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 13:35
The question one has to ask before labeling this as "racist" (and, one that Steele no doubt never thought about), is whether Obama would ask a white guy with crappy polling numbers in a Democrat state to run or not.

Also, accusing the President of being racist against blacks demonstrates (again) just how unserious Steele and the GOP is. It really isn't clear to me why the GOP is doubling down against Obama of all people that they can drag him into the mud and emerged the victor when it is all done.
 
800Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 13:43
What was the point of the question

You don't understand why anyone would be interested in the take of the person responsible for organizing the GOP and promoting and framing it's platform about his take on a leaked internal Democrat memo from the highest ranking person in that party?

What did you expect steele to say?

I don't know. Perhaps I would expect him to offer some perspective on how often this sort of thing occurs and why it might or might not be good strategy or ethical or what have you. I certainly not expect Steele to suggest a racial motive on the President's part.

The man is a moron. He can't even stay on the message he was touting just 3 days earlier when he was criticizing Carter for making basically the same argument.
 
801boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 14:04
You all are just hearing what you want to here, you assume he is idiot so what ever he says something it must be idiotic whether it is or not, just as boldwin hears Obama and hears lies. And before you tell me that is not how it is answer this:

If it had been the new jersey governor that had been asked to not run they[the producers] would have never asked him what he thought. Why was the question not asked directly to Obama?
 
803Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 14:20
you assume he is idiot so what ever he says something it must be idiotic whether it is or not

Well either he's an idiot or a filthy race-baiter. I was actually giving him the benefit of doubt in calling him a moron because he spent a good deal of time the previous week expressing his utter outrage over President Carter, who only applied the same basic logic (which I also disagree but lets face it he had far, far more evidence to support him) in his statement about opposition to Obama.
 
804Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 09:05
Why do they say things like this?

 
805Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 11:26
Who is it you say is doing the race-baiting?
 
806boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 12:36
re 804, I am sorry maybe you can explain what was wrong with his speech? He said Washington was run by monkeys? they have been saying that for years.

re 05, the huffington post?
 
807Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 12:53
I'm not surprised that the guy who couldn't figure out why the clip in 791 sounded anything worse than reasonable sees no reason to raise an eyebrow at #804.

Equally predictable that he seems unable to decipher the meaning of "race-baiting".
 
808Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 12:59
Washington was run by monkeys? they have been saying that for years.


For the record, a google search in quotes for "Washington is run by monkeys" returns no results.

"Washington DC is run by monkeys" returns no results.

"DC is run by monkeys" returns three results - but they all refer to DC Comics.
 
809boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 13:28
never mind no monkeys here.

more monkeys

 
810walk
      ID: 147451314
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 13:37
Agreed, #795. Steele really is an idiot. It's absurd to paint Obama, the one guy who seemingly is trying to have our country rise above color, as a potentially biased person, but that's our state of politics. Ugh.

Tangent: And I aint only for whatever Obama does. I would love to get out of Afghanistan, and thought he might want to do that, but instead he's considering staying or even a surge. Another unwinnable waste of lives and money. It would take like a million soldiers; Afghanistan is just not gonna work. The politics of "quitting" are not desirable. Sux.
 
811Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 13:39
Boikin, maybe someone else will be able to explain to you why I watch the clip in post 804 and have to ask why Republicans say things like that. But I really don't know how to dumb it down to the point you apparently need in order to get it.
 
812biliruben's lawyer
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 15:08
MITH - Are you saying that comparing Al Franken to a monkey is diferent than comparing Tom Delay to a monkey which is different than comapring George Bush to a monkey?
 
813Footwedge
      ID: 28055812
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 15:37
I'm new around here but I don't get the problem in 804. It reminded me of the commericials(Career Builder.com I think) where the guy gets messed up by out of control chimps and wants a better job.

This must be a faith based issue because it definately requires a leap of faith or is it possible that ALL Republicans are secretly racist and if you record what they say and play it backwards you get a Satanic racist chant??

 
815Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 16:26
good lord. are people this obtuse.

it's simply an issue of watching what you say. there may or may not have been racism in mind when that story was relayed, but with racial issues at a fever pitch right now, you can't simply go around talking about "monkeys" in washington when you have a black president.

ask Howard Cosell about how much trouble a "monkey" comment can get you in.
 
816Mith
      ID: 14822920
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 17:31
Footwedge

it definately requires a leap of faith or is it possible that ALL Republicans are secretly racist

Since you're new around here, I'll forgive you the leap it faith it took for you to assume I intend that all Republicans (or any Republicans, or anyone else) are racist.


No one is calling Blunt a racist. I'm not even saying his anecdote was intentionally offensive. But there is a very obvious sensitivity issue that somehow seems to completely escape much of the political right. And in my opinion, this case is particularly strange. It's no secret that with the dwindling majority status of American spelling slow but certain doom for GOP as it is currently comprised. So it should be plainly obvious they desperately need to learn how to better connect with minority voters. One area where there is some natural common ground between sectors of both the GOP and the black community is in their sense for Christian values. And one would think the annual Value Voters summit would be an ideal setting for that outreach. Or at least the perfect setting to not offend their sensibilities with anecdotes which employ the same comparison to the Washington leadership as has been used through the centuries as a vile insult to infer that black people are lesser (or less than) humans - during a time when Washington happens to be led by a black person.

Fail.

Politicians' speeches are thoroughly prepared to not stray off message, undermine their agendas or offend their constituants or the voters they court. So it is just beyond bizarre to me that they say things like this.

Somehow, Obama's Democrat opponents all managed to get through an entire primary season without ever calling him a macaca or referring to some need for a "great white hope" or to any jurisdiction or office with a black executive as overrun by monkeys.

Why can't Republicans figure this out?
 
817Mith
      ID: 14822920
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 17:35
The sentence should read:

It's no secret that the dwindling majority status of American whites spells slow but certain doom for GOP as it is currently comprised.
 
818Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 17:41
Call me a crank, but I don't believe that the GOP is as racist as they are making themselves out to be. I think they are just incompetent.

The GOP is turning into a southern regional party. And good for them.
 
819Mith
      ID: 14822920
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 17:49
Bili

We can't know if Blunt specified Franken and Delay at the end of the anecdote in an attempt to show that the reference was not intended racially. But to anyone whose sensibilities were offended by the repeated references to monkeys making an uncontrollable mess of things followed by the explicit comparison to Washington, the uncomfortable notion was already there and doesn't get washed away by simply dropping two white names.

It's almost like he teased a much more offensive anecdote, only to pull it back at the end and say, "Gotcha! - had you thinking I was gonna go there, didn't I?"
 
820biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 18:05
That's my lawyer, not me. He goes by the letter, rather than the spirit of things.

judging by the crowd's reaction, it seems pretty clear that they knew what Blunt was not inferring.

Nod. Wink. Say no more.
 
821Mith
      ID: 14822920
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 18:24
Honestly I'm shocked that anyone has to ask why I'm taken aback. Just the notion of empathizing with these "British soldiers who were occupying that part of India" who "carved out a golf course in the jungle" to deal with their boredom entertain before you even get to the "unanticipated" "monkey problem" has to raise an eyebrow for anyone who is familiar with some of the negative Republican stereotypes held by people who are skeptical of the GOP agenda.
 
822biliruben's lawyer
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 18:43
MITH - I know what you're inferring- I just think the inference is silly. Remind me - where were you on the Obama reference to a "dog" in a speech that definitely had nothing to do with Palin.....
 
823walk
      ID: 139332920
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 21:31
Glen Beck, conservative or not?

Interesting slew of opinions on him and the view from the right.
 
824astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 21:45
re: 804

I'm not sure the full context of his speech but Blunt's message seems to be about the chaos that Washington politics wreak on the American people. On the flip side, I can see how as his story starts building up you could infer him talking about the Executive office but he quickly dispelled that by referencing Franken and Delay. Just my 2 cents.

 
825astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 21:46
oh, and I am one of those Indian monkeys and I was proud that we got mentioned ;)
 
826Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 23, 2009, 08:34
Astade
Agreed, but my issue isn't about his explicit message, its the apparent obliviousness to the sensitivity of a story that includes these elements which are easily recognized as offensive in another context - and using it as an analogy which strays close to that context.

Counselor
Discovery request approved.
 
827Footwedge
      ID: 28055812
      Wed, Sep 23, 2009, 09:04
MITH

I understand what you are saying about saying about going the extra mile to insure no one reads something into what is said, but at what point do we start critcizing the people who are in fact making something out of nothing. Those are the true trouble makers in our society and whether Rep or Dem if we started calling the pot stirrers on the carpet and shame them into doing something positive or shutting up, we are doomed to a cycle of nonsensical name calling and baseless accusations that drives politics and forums like this.

I realize this is a thread on GOP so I'll not stray, but it seems obvious to me that if people ignored the extremists on both sides they would go away. All they want is attention and funds.
 
828Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 23, 2009, 09:32
Footwedge

going the extra mile to insure no one reads something into what is said

That's not exactly right. It's not going an extra mile to avoid comparisons and analogies that anyone with half a brain knows will make some people cringe.


but at what point do we start critcizing the people who are in fact making something out of nothing.

Why should those things be mutually exclusive? I'd certainly disagree with anyone who accuses Blunt of telling that story to intentionally insult people. And I'll note that I've disputed both broad and narrow charges of rightist racism in the past few days in this thread; see posts 747, 750 and 771.

My only point is that I just don't understand how these people - who are, among other things professional crowd-pleasers - can't seem to get this down. It's not at all unreasonable to ask why they say these things.

it seems obvious to me that if people ignored the extremists on both sides they would go away.

Obviously the left has no shortage of extremists. But in my opinion, the crazy outer fringe on the right has a very strong, vocal presence these days that you just don't see on the leftist fringe. I've noted in this thread and elsewhere that I believe this is a failure of the portion of the mainstream media which is controlled by the right. The Olbermans and Maddows on the left simply do not approach the Becks, Hannitys, Coulters, Malkins, Savages and Limbaughs on the right - in terms of the depth they are willing to descend to or the ratings/book sales they boast.
 
829Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Sep 23, 2009, 13:20
I'm liking this guy in the middle:

 
830Tree
      ID: 598422216
      Wed, Sep 23, 2009, 16:01
i'm partial to the guy with the stars and bars t-shirt, and the guy holding up the "drug testing" sign, as he MUST be high since i have no clue what that sign is trying to say....
 
831boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 23, 2009, 16:03
I was thinking the same thing and the fact that i think he made the shirt himself.
 
832boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 09:23
I don't know seemed reasonable to me, I saw that whole interview and the question seemed out of context in relation to the rest of the interview.
 
833Footwedge
      ID: 28055812
      Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 09:59
MITH

That's not exactly right. It's not going an extra mile to avoid comparisons and analogies that anyone with half a brain knows will make some people cringe.

Some might say that the people who cringe at innocent analogies are in fact the ones with half a brain. Because if they had the whole brain they could see that no boogie man exists there. What this mentality does is hold the average person responsible for neurotic paranoid individuals who could really do with some counseling. ** true answer probably in between**

I think this better defines the differences between Liberal and Conservative.
Liberal - if a person is offended by SOMETHING then ban SOMETHING or call anyone who does SOMETHING an insensitive half-wit.
Conservative - if a person is offended by SOMETHING. Tell the person to get over it.

Maybe we need a third party because I don't see an intelligent solution on either side.

MITH

not suggesting you fall into either just using this as a platform for my middle of the road speech

 
834Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 10:11
Liberal - if a person is offended by SOMETHING then ban SOMETHING or call anyone who does SOMETHING an insensitive half-wit.

i think that's an oversimplification. heck, one need look no further than the abortion debate to see that liberals don't want to ban something that offends people.

and yea, if someone says something stupid or insensitive, they should be called on it. in the summer between my 7th and 8th grade years, some kid called me a "jewish pickle-nose".

i broke his nose with the first punch i ever threw at someone. and his nose got much bigger than mine. :o)
 
835Pancho Villa
      ID: 51843249
      Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 10:43
Maybe we need a third party because I don't see an intelligent solution on either side.

The intelligent solution is to make South Park mandatory viewing for every American.
 
837Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 11:40
Footwedge

Because if they had the whole brain they could see that no boogie man exists there.

I'm sorry but there is a very long history with boatloads of evidence to the contrary. While it has mostly been pushed to the peripheral, anti-minority racism still exists and still harms to people. And unfortunately, the former base of that sentiment and the peripherals in which it still lives are mostly on the right. The GOP shoots itself in the foot every time one of them says something like this, because these events don't occur in a vaccum. Minorities don't forget when Republican candidates refer to their minority opponents as a "macacca".

Or when they hear about a local Republican womens' group includes this image in their newsletter:


Or when booths at the Texas GOP convention last year were selling these buttons:


Or after this appeared on the Pemberton Township and Burlington County (South Jersey) GOP website for at least two weeks:


Sorry, but you can't just expect people to not be sensitive to that stuff. The civil righsts era wasn't that long ago and there are still plenty of people around with vivid memories of lynchings, cross burnings, church bombings, fire hoses and police dogs which are still easily enough stirred up that it seems pretty obvious to me that you should avoid anaolgies which suggest monkeys control Washington while a Black man is president.

It completely bewilders me that I have to even type that sentence.



Liberal - if a person is offended by SOMETHING then ban SOMETHING or call anyone who does SOMETHING an insensitive half-wit.
Conservative - if a person is offended by SOMETHING. Tell the person to get over it.


That's your middle of the road speech?

That liberals are whiney self-victimizers and conservatives are thick skinned and unconcerned with such nonsense?

Aside from the fact that there is nothing objective or centrist about that statement, it's also a steaming pile of horseshit.

I'm pretty sure I recall FOX News Channel feeding the backlash to David Letterman's inapropriate comments about Sarah Palin's daughter, putting numerous people on national television who called for a boycott of his show and for him to be fired.

And I'm pretty sure I recall the John McCain campaign being highly offended by the Obama camp saying that McCain was out of touch with voters and confused about certain facts. The charge was that these were code words for saying that McCain is to old to be president, which for some reason was supposed to be terribly offensive.

I'm pretty sure I also remember how Obama's campaign statement in San Francisco - that middle class Americans feel so disenfranchised by the failure of government to make good on their promises to help regenerate their communities that they've given up and focus instead on other social issues - was twisted into an anti-religion and anti-2nd Amendment statement which "conservative" middle-Americans rallied around.

Perhaps a better "middle of the road" definition for "conservative" might be: if a person is offended by something that conservatives are unable to relate to, tell the person to get over it - otherwise just stick to the liberal playbook.
 
838Boldwin
      ID: 478362416
      Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 17:46
Actually what's wrong with the bottom two?
 
839Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 19:05
while i really want to ask "is he serious in asking why a button questioning whether it will still be called the White House if a black man is elected," Baldwin's previous established bigotry makes the answer apparent.
 
840Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 21:04
I can't imagine what caused Baldwin to get banned...

I can only pray Guru figures out how to ban his entire city so he can't keep changing IPs.
 
841Mith
      ID: 14822920
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 08:43
Boldwin has not been banned.

Tree it doesn't matter. The trend is simply undeniable. Switch the button out for the rep who pined for a "Great White Hope" or for Rush Limbaugh's parody song, which he played numerous times on the air; "Barack the Magic Negro".

Or for this image, accidentially sent out in a mass emil by the exec. asst. of Republican TN State Senator Diane Black:


Or this image, which appeared on the website of a Northern Virginia Republican womens' group:


Or this image, sent in an email by Dean Grose, the Republican mayor of Los Alamitos, CA:


 
842jedman
      ID: 552262217
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 09:08
From the little I have posted here I think most know that I am not an Obama fan and am worried about the programs he is implementing or trying to implement.
I just don't understand why the issues just can't be debated without all the additional name-calling. It is one thing to say don't be so sensitive and another to just completely cross over the line of human decency. I cannot listen to Rush, Hannity, Beck, or any other "conservative" talk show anymore because it has crossed way over the line and they just constantly rehash the same talking points over and over and over (add about 1,000 more overs). I have just mentally checked out and am disgusted with the whole political system. I really do wonder if anybody, on either side in Washington really cares about what is best for the country as opposed to what will get me re-elected and keep me in the lifestyle to which I have become accustomed.
 
843Boldwin
      ID: 47825258
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 09:34
Re: #837

I was fooled by the line in the last item. I do in fact have a problem with the button above it.

I have no problem with the Ice Cream Flavor one.

No ice cream for you.
 
844Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 10:09
no shocker there from the resident bigot. because, of course, skin color is relevant to who we elect to what office.
 
845Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 10:12
The ice cream one is just silly. More a bad description than anything else--mixing up its metaphors.

 
846Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 11:03
"Barocky Road is a blend of half vanilla, half chocolate... The vanilla portion of the mix is not openly advertised and usually denied as an ingredient" sounds pretty offensive to me, but it doesn't matter. The point is that there is an undeniable trend here which is a recent descendent of the much more grievous anti-civil rights agenda from a previous generation that very legitimately feeds minorities' sensitivity to this stuff.

Until the political right can figure out how to exorcise this stuff from their culture once and for all, they will never earn the respect of any significant portion of minority voters, who are well on their way to becoming a majority. If the changing ethnic face of America is what brings the death of political conservatism here, it'll be their own fault for failing to figure out how to reconcile their conservatism with broad ethnic sensitivity. It's just amazing how frequently those things are still mutually exclusive.
 
847Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 14:23
Mistakenly linked this in the FNC thread. Should have stuck it here:

Posner: The Intellectual Decline of Conservatism
 
848biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 14:31
I haven't had much exposure to Posner, other than his embarrassing attempt to debate world-class economists on the stimulus. I knew he was a respected intellectual, but after he exposed his economic ignorance, I thought "why bother".

That blog piece might entice me to read more; particularly if he sticks to law.
 
849Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Sep 28, 2009, 09:50
although obviously not direction of the entire GOP, it's just more of the same in a disturbing trend of hate from many on the Right...

 
850Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Sep 29, 2009, 11:21
Beyond obstructionism:

 
851Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Sep 30, 2009, 08:40
 
852walk
      ID: 147451314
      Wed, Sep 30, 2009, 11:25
Thomas Friedman: Where did the "we" go?

I find this editorial truly on the mark. It's not a republican thing, but I am putting it here cos this thread is usually at the top, and in the context of Obama, and the right-wing attacks against him, it belongs. It's a shame that such labeling and wicked sentiment is being demonstrated against Obama, and it does cause one to wonder if this could result in a license to harm. Where is the reasoned debate?
 
853Boldwin
      ID: 34803016
      Wed, Sep 30, 2009, 17:00
When Obama's plan is to turn America into a marxist state, "we" just went out the window. There is no possible way that that is a consensus project. Don't blame his opponents. Blame him for violating America's character.
 
854Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Sep 30, 2009, 17:04
About 250,000,000 Americans don't think Obama is turning the country into a Marxist state, so if you think your loony bin self-righteousness is going to get you anywhere in this country, I suggest you think again. And even if he is, he was democratically elected, so what he does with that power is his prerogative, so long as it is within the confines of the law. You going to be looking for a new country to live in soon, Boldwin?
 
855Perm Dude
      ID: 438132822
      Wed, Sep 30, 2009, 17:16
When the wacky Right opposes Obama to the point of complaining about a speech to schoolkids to work hard in school, it is clear that there never was a "we."



Everything in their oeuvre is self-fulfilling.

Forty years ago, here they were:

 
856Perm Dude
      ID: 438132822
      Wed, Sep 30, 2009, 19:38
RNC's Hispanic outreach doesn't translate well
 
857astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Thu, Oct 01, 2009, 00:09
Razor, I kindly disagree with #854. Just because a President wins the national election and has a strong following doesn't mean we can't question his advancement of socialism. I think the bigger issue is that those that contest his policies do so politely and offer other alternatives.
 
858Boldwin
      ID: 34803016
      Thu, Oct 01, 2009, 04:05
You going to be looking for a new country to live in soon, Boldwin?

Which begs the question, "will there be a safe haven when America dies"?
 
859Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Oct 01, 2009, 08:08
Just because a President wins the national election and has a strong following doesn't mean we can't question his advancement of socialism.

Every time the right confuses questioning an alleged "advancement of socialism" with a coming "marxist state" they further delegitimize themselves.
 
860astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Sun, Oct 04, 2009, 17:47
An article that was on Drudge.

If you scroll down halfway and peruse the reader comments, it's pretty interesting. I noticed a lot of vitriol that going on a 2hr anniversary dinner shouldn't inspire. There's clearly an underlying anger that alot of Americans have and any small point brought up about the president causes it to spew.

 
861Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 08:28
Agreed, Astade, although I generally refrain from pointing to public comments under a blog entry or news article to make any points about a large demographic, it does fall in line with a trend which I think has been well displayed here.

Also, I stated the The Unpatriotic Right thread as a continuation of this one. After 500-600 posts these threads take a long time to load when you're trying to find previous comments and links to refer to. I should have put the link here last week when I started that thread.
 
862Perm Dude
      ID: 438132822
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 10:02
It seems to me, MITH, that while you might have intended the Unpatriotic Right thread as a continuation of this one, its title seems far more narrowly-focused.

For example (via Andrew Sullivan), this piece about some conservatives trying to edit the Bible to make it more conservative isn't about how unpatriotic the right has become by virtue of the Presidential change, but about, as Rod Dreher points out, they worship ideology.
 
863Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 10:22
I was just trying to help keep things organized, PD.
 
864walk
      ID: 147451314
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 13:26
NYT Krugman: The Politics of Spite

To be fair, I am sure I and other liberals bashed Cheney/Bush a lot, but Krugman makes a pretty good point here that a lot of folks have made above: At this stage, can one party endorse the views of the opposing party, even if it's obviously good for the country? I guess one from the other side cannot accept when the proposal is potentially good for the country, cos then the opposition would be exposed. The olympics thing just makes it plain obvious...Healthcare more nuanced, and it is painfully interesting to see how there can be no endorsement of anything Obama, ever.
 
865Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 14:07
I'll endorse a post-racial America whenever Obama is willing to quit flogging that worn out race card.
 
866Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 14:11
That's not possible, given the double standard you and the hysterical and unpatriotic right insist on.
 
867boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 14:52
At this stage, can one party endorse the views of the opposing party, even if it's obviously good for the country?

but what is good for the country is not necessary good for the party or its members. Yes maybe they are they are hurting the country but if in long term if they can use the opposition defeats to take back control then they are in fact doing what is best or at least the best for there constituents...I think they teach you this in the art of war.
 
868Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 15:00
they are in fact doing what is best or at least the best for there constituents

Horseshit. Their constituants need health insurance. Not unserious, shameless, blatant lies about death panels.
 
869Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 15:15
I'll endorse a post-racial America whenever Obama is willing to quit flogging that worn out race card.

when people are protesting their president with signs showing his photoshopped face in a costumer of africal tribal gear and calling him a "lyin' African", and other people like yourself refuse to condemn those folks, it's pretty obvious who's trotting out the race card.
 
870Perm Dude
      ID: 438132822
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 15:26
Baldwin's comment perfectly sums up much of the GOP these days: "I'll stop being an ass when Obama stops doing what I insist he is actually doing."

In an echo chamber in which dissent is driven away through personal invective and personal responsibility is set aside for the needs of the Collective, it is no wonder that the wacky Right insists upon setting the rules of the game as a precondition to reasonable behavior.
 
871boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 18:26
Horseshit. Their constituants need health insurance. Not unserious, shameless, blatant lies about death panels do they, i thought they were all old rich white people, sounds like the people who have health care to me.....clearly you would make a bad strategist.
 
872sarge33rd
      ID: 54913519
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 20:13
And therein , lies the root fo the problem with American politics today. It no longer has a damn thing to do with "what is right for the country".; but rather EVERYTHING to do with "what will MY guy elected". Even to the point, of disregarding the truth.
 
873mith
      ID: 41956519
      Mon, Oct 05, 2009, 20:56
I thought they were all old rich white people

What a stupid thing for you to write, Boikin. You're going to have to find someone else to hang that stereotype on. No, I do not dismiss the entire political right as a homogenous bunch of old rich white people, you fool.

And for the record, the need for reform does not change across party lines and is not limited to those who are currently uninsured. Just as much as the uninsured need insurance, many of the currently insured won't be able to stay insured as costs continue to spiral out of control.

But really, what a pathetic argument to resort to.
 
874boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Oct 06, 2009, 11:01
And therein , lies the root fo the problem with American politics today. It no longer has a damn thing to do with "what is right for the country".; but rather EVERYTHING to do with "what will MY guy elected". Even to the point, of disregarding the truth.

most accurate item i have read on these boards in a while.


re: 873, you really do not understand do you? it is not about what is right and wrong it about what is best for me, or in the this case what is best for the party.
 
875biliruben
      Leader
      ID: 589301110
      Tue, Oct 06, 2009, 11:54
Maybe for you. If the majority of Americans in our society felt that way, we would no longer be a society. We would be lower than rats.

There are people who build. And there are people who destroy.

I choose to be, and be associated with, builders.
 
876Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Oct 06, 2009, 13:07
boikin I thoroughly reject the abjectlty pathetic notion that the kind of fundamentalist "party politics" you defend here is something that is good for America.

It's you who doesn't understand if you think tricking the public into fearing death panels is any way to run a country.
 
877boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Oct 06, 2009, 15:09
If the majority of Americans in our society felt that way,

but they do feel that way, if we as country did not act in selfish manner then health care would not be a issue, the old/sick would let themselves die, the rich would pay for the poor to have medical care. People with extra room would take the homeless in. We would share our extra food instead of throwing it away...but i guess we are not all builders.

you defend here is something that is good for America.

I never once say it is good for America. I say it is or at least could be good for them.
 
878Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Oct 06, 2009, 15:22
We don't enact legislation that only applies to one party. Sorry if I don't identify with party politics. It's all disingenuous bullshit. Rhetorical arguments in defense of that just further fuels problem. I'm not the least bit interested.
 
879biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Oct 06, 2009, 15:27
That's some seriously cynical shiznet.

I personally know someone he has done each one of those things, except maybe let themselves die.

I don't understand this mentality. It's not human as I think of human. I think I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are only saying these things for the sake of argument. Otherwise you are below my dog on the value scale.
 
880walk
      ID: 147451314
      Tue, Oct 06, 2009, 17:27
Heavy stuff!
 
881biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Oct 06, 2009, 18:24
It just frustrates me when people start throwing around this social Darwinian nonsense. As if anyone with half a brain can't see the advantages of working together as a society or as a humanity.

Giving into these thoughts is a huge step back in human evolution.
 
882WiddleAvi
      ID: 895017
      Tue, Oct 06, 2009, 21:53
Probably need a facebook account to see this

This is the current GOP
 
883Perm Dude
      ID: 438132822
      Tue, Oct 06, 2009, 22:00
Decent joke with a very sensitive guy posting it.
 
884Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Oct 06, 2009, 22:07
i'm not sure if the guy telling the joke doesn't grasp the racial undertones, or he's being cutesy about it.
 
885Perm Dude
      ID: 438132822
      Wed, Oct 07, 2009, 00:37
A version of that joke has been around a long time. It has nothing to do with race.
 
886Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Oct 07, 2009, 08:20
Would you select high contrast color film, or would you go with the classic simplicity of black and white?

The is simply no way to read that sentence in a context in which the words "black and white" refer to anything about race.

I guess it's offensive to some to joke about the notion of letting the president and speaker die for personal gain as a no-brainer, but as PD notes, it's an old joke that I've heard with all manner of famous people, especially politicians, inserted into the punchline.
 
887sarge33rd
      ID: 3394177
      Wed, Oct 07, 2009, 08:41
I think boikin's posts/point is being missed here fellas. I don't see his posts as DEFENDING what he is saying is the current reality, only that he is saying it *IS* the current reality.

And I think he is absolutely right. American politics, has devolved into lie, cheat, steal, threaten, intimidate...whatever it takes; to get the voters to pick YOUR candidate. Regardless of what is or isn't in true national interests.

How many legislative votes over the past 20 years or so, have been within just a couple per centage points of being straight down party lines? What per cent of bills voted on, went up or down, based on who was in the majority at the time of the vote? Purely partisan, party, politics. That's what we have today, and it will indeed )if allowed to run unchecked), lead to the collapse of our system. (Just as unchecked excesses have contributed to the collapse of virtually every society throughout human history. Excepting of course, those eliminated via war.)
 
888Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Oct 07, 2009, 08:47
Sarge if you (and bili's benefit of doubt in 879) are right I owe boikin an apology.
 
889boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Oct 07, 2009, 10:58
It just frustrates me when people start throwing around this social Darwinian nonsense. As if anyone with half a brain can't see the advantages of working together as a society or as a humanity.

I would call it evolutionary psychology, Social Darwinism was the attempt to use evolution to create a "better" mankind while evolutionary psychology is used to explain human behavior but that if for another day.

Sarge is right I am not defending anything just pointing out things.
 
890walk
      ID: 147451314
      Wed, Oct 07, 2009, 16:57
Love evolutionary psychology! (or psychobiology), one of my fave courses as an undergrad at SUNY Albany taught by Gordon Gallup.

Gallup

One of the courses that made me say, "yep, I'll be a psychologist."
 
891Boldwin
      ID: 1794329
      Wed, Oct 07, 2009, 21:59
There are people who build. And there are people who destroy.

I choose to be, and be associated with, builders.
- bili

Oh brother, that hammer in the hammer and sickle is just there to hammer off bits of the old order since it can't make anything of it's own. The only thing marxists make are parasites and stazi.
 
892Perm Dude
      ID: 438132822
      Wed, Oct 14, 2009, 14:20
The neocons are making a desperate bid at getting back into power--they only way they know how. Fearmongering.

The complete spanking that the neocons did to the GOP continues today. I think it is time for the Right to realize that they've been had.
 
893scoobies
      ID: 417302319
      Thu, Oct 15, 2009, 21:39
Republicans in Congress
There's Rep for that....
 
894Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Mon, Oct 19, 2009, 12:02
Want to keep guns in the hands of the mentally deranged? Ah, yeah, there's a whole slew of Reps for that...

 
895Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Oct 19, 2009, 13:07
NRA in robocall: Clinton is meeting the with UN to take away your guns!!

Welcome to Pennsylvania:



story

Meanwhile, MC Steele thinks immigration is a matter of just filling out some forms. Oh, and we don't need no stinking comprehensive health care plan.

 
896biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Mon, Oct 19, 2009, 14:26
"Because our health care system," he continued, according to a transcript posted by Latina Lista, "while it remains the best in the country and while it provides largely the services that people need and the quality of those services are very, very good, there are costs associated with this system that needs to be address more directly."

He explained the Republicans' plan for health care, describing it as "elbow grease" that requires neither regulation or taxation.

"It's common sense solution, it doesn't require a nationalizing of our health care system, and it doesn't involve or require a great government intrusion through regulation and taxation and other confiscatory policies," he said. "What it requires is applying a little, you know elbow grease, to allow those businesses, those Hispanic businesses for example, under the market place and get the health care that they need."


"...best in the Country"? Huh?

"...nationalizing.."? Zoinks!?!

"...elbow grease..." Wuh?

What complete and total a dipshit.

I think I can officially ignore anything Michael Steele has to say in the future, secure in the knowledge that I won't be losing one iota of valuable information.
 
897Boldwin
      ID: 2799184
      Tue, Oct 20, 2009, 16:00
Want to keep guns in the hands of the mentally deranged? - SZ

Keep voting in Democrats.
 
898Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Oct 23, 2009, 10:33
Nation's morons march on Washington
 
899Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Mon, Nov 02, 2009, 08:40
As planned, GOP obstructionist tactics have driven down Democratic approval rattings.

What's wrong with that?:

But here's the thing: the Dems have gone from a +10 favorable rating in January to a - 10 right now; but the Republicans have sunk from a -30 to -60.

Yay, self-hating GOP!
 
900Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Nov 02, 2009, 10:28
 
901boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Nov 02, 2009, 10:44
re:899 if the GOP policies are people away from both parties i am all for that, anything that leads to third party I am all for.
 
902Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Nov 03, 2009, 08:14
That's exactly what they did in NY's 23rd district - because Palin had to bolster her teabagger street cred by taking a stand against a social liberal winning a seat in blue New York - never mind that Dede Scozzafava happens to also be a bona fide fiscal conservative. Now a seat that has been occupied exclusively by Republicans since the 1800s is up for grabs.

Was there any doubt that Palin would be the fault line in the inevitable GOP fractionation?
 
903Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 06:44
The party of Reagan is officially dead.

Socially liberal "Reagan Democrats" were crucial to the coalition he built. Today, anyone resembling such people in the GOP - even in blue regions where social conservatives can't get elected - are chided as RINOs and cast off by what is now called the party's "base".

Michael Steele had the gumption to spin the far right's attack on the RNC-supported Scozzafava as a good thing for the Republican Party. How will Steel spin the loss of a seat which has been occupied by a Republican since the Civil War to the Dems, officially giving the Democrats the biggest advantage in the House that either party has enjoyed since the first term of the Clinton Administration. Not to mention snatching near-certain victory away from a legitimate fiscal conservative.
 
904Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 08:37
So, you actually think yesterday's vote was a Dem victory? Wierd cause Dem spimmeister Stephenopolis called it a 'primal scream from the electorate', not some kind of affirmation of Dem governance.

I actually came on to facetiously ask PD for some of his triumphalism only to find MITH actually engaged in it! Mindboggling disconnect from reality, especially coming from MITH.

 
905biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 08:39
I think he was talking specifically about the NY race, not the governor's races.
 
906Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 08:46
Steele is part of the problem. He's part of the aparatus who forced a liberal Republicans did not want onto the ballot.

 
907Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 08:50
the NY race was an indicator of the splintering in the Republican party.

while i think there will certainly be some spinning of the governor races in NJ and Va as some sort of referendum on Obama, the fact is that both races:

1. featured unpopular incumbents
2. were in states where the party in power in the White House has lost the governor's race. in Virginia, you'd have to go back over 35 years to see a different outcome.
3. 56 percent of Virginians and 60 percent of those in New Jersey said that Obama was not a factor when it came down to their vote.

yes, because Obama campaigned on behalf of Corzine and Deeds, it is a reflection on him. But, it's hardly a referendum, and more likely, simply a case where two unpopular men lost elections.
 
908DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 09:44
"Steele is part of the problem. He's part of the aparatus who forced a non-looney conservative that the right-most 20% of Republicans did not want onto the ballot, and as a result they whined and cried and took their ball and went home."

FYP
 
909Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 09:47
Five Obama visits to blue state NJ to support Corzzine. How'd that work out?
 
910Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 09:53
Terribly. How did the stupid, female Ronald Reagan's support of Doug Hoffman go?
 
911boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 10:03
I was not going to post anything in here, but after some thought, yesterday could end up being big defeat for democrats. And not because of the races they lost but because of the race they won. The democrats would have been better served losing the 23rd district and prolonging the career of palin and the far right.
 
912Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 10:08
Funny, boikin: I was just about to post that Owens' win in NY-23 was actually a good sign for the GOP (looking at it a different way). Certainly it was a better sign than NJ-Gov (which will go back to the Dems next election since Christie has absolutely no plan for NJ's huge budget problems). The rejection of Hoffman, accompanied as it was by the official GOP candidate endorsing Owens, will help push the tea baggers to the fringe and helps undercut some of the legitimacy and cover the GOP has been giving them.
 
913Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 19:16
never mind that Dede Scozzafava happens to also be a bona fide fiscal conservative - MITH

Just for fun...are you actually suggesting that this...*cough*...person in any way represents what Republicans need?

Someone so left they quit and throw their support to the Democrat?

Oh yeah, there's a winning strategy. Who needs Carl Rove when we've got your astute hand at the Republican tiller.

Just admit the last 1000 posts of advice from poliboard lefties for the GOP was all a tongue-in-cheek joke.

 
914DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 19:38
"Someone so left they quit and throw their support to the Democrat?"

If, on a political scale of 1 to 10 (1 being what you conceptualize every Democrat in existence as, and 15 being you), one is a 6, and the only choices are to support a 3 or a 10, it would seem to make sense to support the 3 as being closer to one's own beliefs.

Unless you believe that the party label should take precedence, of course--but we already know that isn't the case thanks to your ruthless bashing of 'impure' Republicans.
 
915Wilmer McLean
      ID: 171057419
      Wed, Nov 04, 2009, 21:20
NY's 23rd Congressional District - Wiki

...

Peter A. Peyser Democratic January 3, 1979 –
January 3, 1983

Samuel S. Stratton Democratic January 3, 1983 –
January 3, 1989 Redistricted from the 28th district

Michael R. McNulty Democratic January 3, 1989 –
January 3, 1993 Redistricted to the 21st district

Sherwood Boehlert Republican January 3, 1993 –
January 3, 2003 Redistricted from the 25th district,
Redistricted to the 24th district

John M. McHugh Republican January 3, 2003 –
September 21, 2009 Redistricted from the 24th district
Resigned to become Secretary of the Army

Bill Owens Democratic TBD Plattsburgh


NY's 23rd Congressional District Components:

1913–1919
Parts of Manhattan

1919–1969
Parts of The Bronx

1969–1971
Parts of The Bronx, Manhattan

1971–1973
Parts of The Bronx

1973–1983
Parts of The Bronx, Westchester

1983–1993
All of Albany, Schenectady
Parts of Montgomery, Rensselaer

1993–2003
All of Chenango, Madison, Oneida, Otsego
Parts of Broome, Delaware, Herkimer, Montgomery, Schoharie

2003–present
All of Clinton, Franklin, Hamilton, Jefferson, Lewis, Madison, Oswego, St. Lawrence
Parts of Essex, Fulton, Oneida


Samuel S. Stratton Obituary -- NY Times

...

He was first elected to the House in 1958, becoming the only Democrat in 42 years to be sent to Congress from what was then the 32d Congressional District in the Albany-Schenectady-Troy area.

Despite several redistrictings in a predominantly Republican area, he was returned to Congress with ease every two years and became dean of the New York delegation in January 1979. At his retirement, Mr. Stratton represented the 23d District.

...



Over the years the 23rd Congressional District has moved from Manhattan to the border of Canada currently. Have those in the northern counties of "Clinton, Franklin, Hamilton, Jefferson, Lewis, Madison, Oswego, St. Lawrence, parts of Essex, Fulton, and Oneida" voted for a Republican since the Civil War? I don't know.
 
916Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Nov 05, 2009, 04:56
Dwet

If your idea of a good nominee is someone who quits and endorses the other side, then have at it. Your side should definately lead the way in taking advantage of that strategy.

 
917boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Nov 05, 2009, 09:52
re 95: why are they making a big deal about a democrat winning the 23rd looks like he is the first since 93?
 
918Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Nov 05, 2009, 10:03
It is a pretty "safe" Republican district. Until the tea baggers got involved.

I think there is a danger in reading too much into such a small race. None of these elections were mandates on Obama (not even mine!). But this all seems to help feed into the cottage industry of the political media, who seem to overanalyze everything anyway.
 
919DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Nov 05, 2009, 10:17
"Dwet

If your idea of a good nominee is someone who quits and endorses the other side, then have at it."

I think as you as usual are too obtuse (cue the picture of the warden) to realize that the point was that defining politics as strictly two-sided is much of what got the country into this mess in the first place.

And also to obtuse to realize that that's what the arch-conservatives did first here--they quit on their guy to endorse someone else. The result, unsurprisingly, was that a normal Republican, who was forced to choose between a far right-wing conservative and a normal Democrat, decided that their views aligned more closely with the normal Democrat.

I say unsurprising because it's exactly what happened in the 2008 elections as well.

Only the guano-crazy right wingers seem to blame this on the normal Republicans. The other 90% of the universe seems to think it's the fault of the 10%.


I don't really know why I bothered typing this, as I know I'll get some snarky, unresearched, unfactual bit of pablum from Boldwin (along with being insulted by Boxman or whatever thing he is calling himself these days to sneak back onto a board he's been banned from). Maybe I'm hoping that an intelligent conservative will materialize and tell me where I'm going wrong.
 
920tree on the treo
      ID: 287212811
      Thu, Nov 05, 2009, 10:41
DWetzel - there are intelligent posters on this board. they even post here. but, I think, they refuse to get involved with this left vs. right battle, at least in part, because of the foolishness and mean-spiritedness of baldwin, boxman, and the like...
 
921Mith
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Nov 05, 2009, 10:44
Post 903: triumphalism

Amazing that after 10 years worth of posts here you don't know anything at all about my character except that I lean left politically. And for the record, the notion of this year's election season as any reliable "bellweather" is silly myth, whichever side the pundits claim came out ahead.

So I disagree with PD in post 912. I don't believe the rejection of Hoffman will have the slightest national implications in the next few years, beyond of course Owens' actual votes in Congress.

are you actually suggesting that this...*cough*...person in any way represents what Republicans need?

Someone so left they quit and throw their support to the Democrat?


I said she's a fiscal conservative, fool. And yes, that is exactly what the GOP and the thinking (read: non-teabagger) political right needs more of in Congress. Since you obviously aren't paying attention, I'll point out to you that there is no shortage of Republican legislators lining up to prove their social conservative credentials. But what percentage of Republicans in Congress are legitimate fiscal conservatives? That she reacted in kind when she was stabbed in the back by the party that nominated her does not say anything about her economic politics.

And PD is exactly right in post 918: it was a pretty "safe" Republican district during a time when Congress is dominated by Democrats - until the tea baggers got involved.
 
922DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Nov 05, 2009, 10:54
"DWetzel - there are intelligent posters on this board. they even post here. but, I think, they refuse to get involved with this left vs. right battle, at least in part, because of the foolishness and mean-spiritedness of baldwin, boxman, and the like..."

For the record, I *heart* Madman, who I think qualifies as conservative.

The not-so-funny thing about the whole deal is I think if the right-wingers on the board weren't so busy attacking and assuming that everyone that disagrees with them on a particular issue is the bastard love child of Karl Marx and Jesse Jackson, we might actually get a chance to agree on things once in a while. And one would find that it would be different people that agree on different things.

When the only options are to agree with Boldwin and his comrades on everything, or be labeled a liberul commie gay-loving godless (etc. etc.), then I guess I'll take the second group. And, judging by the election in NY-23, so do most people.
 
923Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Nov 05, 2009, 18:48
Michael Steele: Don't even think about supporting Obama, or we'll come after you.

The more Michael Steele talks, the better Democrats are looking. Let's hope the GOP finds a brain and dumps this guy.
 
924Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Nov 06, 2009, 19:06
Eric Cantor stands up against tea baggers and their Holocaust imagery.

Good for him. Now, of course, he'll be called a RINO.
 
925Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Fri, Nov 06, 2009, 19:10
Six Republicans blow off Judiciary Committee votes on the Patriot Act to go to Tea Party rally

And all missed votes in the House Judiciary committee on Republican-sponsored amendments to the reauthorization of the Patriot Act -- measures that would have toughened the Act, but narrowly failed.
 
926Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 14:30
This is just dismaying:

A majority of Republicans think ACORN stole the election for Obama.

If given the choice: "Do you think that Barack Obama legitimately won the Presidential election last year, or do you think that ACORN stole it for him?" 52% of Republicans choose the latter.

Sigh.
 
927Frick
      ID: 9103036
      Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 15:56
Re:926

Articles like that remind me why I avoid them in general. The stats are spun to support the writer's point (which is fine), but the the margin of error and/or the sampling method is absent (I could have missed it though.)

Also, how did the writer get the 9.5 million vote number? Our election process doesn't require that the winner win the majority, theoretically they could probably lose the popular election pretty significantly and still win the electoral college. (Assume that enough states to win the electoral college50.1 to 49.9 and the rest were 0 to 100%) But the 9.5 million number sounds scary, but the swing states were the deciding factor (although it wasn't that close)

In a nutshell (cymbal crash) I see it this way. Liberals hate the right-wing radio voices and bash them at every chance. Conservatives hate liberal activist groups like Acorn and bash them at every chance.

One of the methods seem much more effective to me, but both are annoying to me personally.

And to say that any President has had a clear and overwhelming majority is though when the average turn out hovers around 55%.
 
928Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 16:12
Clicking through will get you the information on the polling, Frick. The +/- is 3%.

This isn't just a matter of "hating" one side or the other. This is a matter of one side believing something that is simply not true.

As for the 9.5 million vote victory, I don't think we can dive too deeply into the mind of someone who believes an un-fact. This would be like arguing about how many Jews lived in Europe in 1935 with someone who believes the Holocaust didn't occur. The numbers don't really matter so much as the refusal to believe in a historical fact.
 
929Frick
      ID: 9103036
      Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 16:43
The question is poorly worded in my opinion and allows people to extrapolate what they want into it. Did Acorn help Obama win the election, is how I could see some people reading it. 18% of Democrats think that Acorn stole the election, which seems strange to me for some reason.

I'm confused by the 9.5 million vote comment. Our election process is not a popular election, aggregate votes is a non-issue. But it seems to be brought up in the article to help incite a reaction from the reader.
 
930Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Thu, Nov 19, 2009, 17:29
It is, IMO, a better number than the electoral college margin (365-173). Presumably ACORN was affecting actual popular vote totals in some nefarious way.

Question isn't so much poorly worded as it is indicative of what the GOP stands for. One has a choice of saying whether Obama won the election legitimately, and a majority of GOP respondents say "no."
 
931J-Bar
      ID: 410522021
      Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 00:11
kinda of reminds of all the dems that believed scotus stole it for bush. idiots just on a different side
 
932Perm Dude
      ID: 154552311
      Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 00:14
So you agree that it is a stupid opinion to have--that Obama is not the legitimate victor in the election and that ACORN stole the election for him?
 
933J-Bar
      ID: 410522021
      Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 00:28
it is a stupid opinion just like the 2000 election argument. i feel we have issues with our voting laws and systems and they can use some revamping which would lessen the impact of such groups as acorn on elections and get them back in the business of registering voters and not inventing or busing voters.
 
934Perm Dude
      ID: 438132822
      Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 00:38
Maybe. But many people felt that SCOTUS jumped in far too early into the process, deciding on its own before Florida could finish its re-count on its own. Like it or not, that, coupled with Gore's clear popular vote victory, made that impression a reasonable one.

McCain was nowhere close to a popular count victory. And the states in which ACORN as associated with are ones that Democrats run strongly in anyway.

In 2000 as it turns out, of course, under virtually any counting standard Bush won Florida and therefore the election. If the count had been allowed to continue there would not have been the belief that SCOTUS decided the election by stepping in as they did.
 
935J-Bar
      ID: 410522021
      Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 01:01
1st paragraph is just trying to make the dems conspiracy theorists sound more rationale than the reps conspiracy theorists but as the final count shows both are the same. but just because crazies are involved does not mean both do not have some basis in fact and the fraud should be investigated and the laws strengthened to give our elections the most credibility possible. i found it almost laughable that we were holding afghan leaders to account due to elections issues.
 
936Perm Dude
      ID: 438132822
      Sat, Nov 21, 2009, 10:39
I'm not certain what your point is with Afghanistan--the problem in that country is widespread corruption in virtually all areas of the country (including the election).

As for ACORN, I think you might want to refresh your memory as far as what they were accused of and what actually happened.
 
937Pancho Villa
      ID: 381047158
      Tue, Dec 08, 2009, 11:34
Gotta wonder about this direction.

Cheney for president 2012

Christopher Barron, a political consultant and former political director for the Log Cabin Republicans, filed papers last week to launch his "Draft Cheney 2012" group and Web site.

Barron is attracting contributions and hundreds of followers who want to see Cheney do more with his life.

"This is one of those seminal moments in the history of our party. . . What is this party going to stand for?" Barron said. "And I think there is only one man who is capable of bringing the entire Republican coalition together and speaking with clarity about the values that have made our party great. And that is Vice President Cheney."


Let's talk seminal moments, shall we?

 
938biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Tue, Dec 08, 2009, 11:42
What's the root of the word seminal again?
 
939Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Dec 12, 2009, 17:40
The vague hatred of the House GOP
 
940Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 11:11
Although I was derided in another thread about local politics here in Texas, the fact remains that the governor's race here may very well be a bellweather for the rest of the nation.

Although this article is a month old, it details a bit the race for the Republican nomination between the incumbent Rick Perry (a staunch, Palin-esque style politician in actions and rhetoric) and multi-term State Senator (and former state Treasurer) Kay Bailey Hutchison (a pro-choice (but very much against taxpayer-funded abortion, and also supportive of restrictions such as parental notification and making it illegal to transport a minor across state lines in order to circumvent parental notification laws), pro-gun rights big-tent sort of Republican that very much opposes Obama and also is pro-big oil, as she has received more campaign contributions from members of large oil and gas corporations than any other member of Congress, and has a pretty crappy record when it comes to environmental issues).

Although the Schwarzenegger/Palin scrap will get more play because the figures are certainly more well known on the national scene, I think what happens on the Republican side of things for the 2010 Governor's race here in Texas is going to be a big test as to which way the national Republican party swings as we gear up for Presidential election season.
 
941Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 17:32
Neither one strikes me as a conservative. Certainly Perry wasn't one wrt FLDS. The issue I know him best for.

Care to present any evidence of his conservative substance [as opposed to conservative posturing].

 
942Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 18:32
Well Perry has made statements positive regarding tea parties, but he backed Rudy Guiliani.

The first I'd suspect is posturing for re-election, the second I take to be his true colors.

 
943Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 18:38
He headed Algore's 1988 presidential campaign team.

Do I really need to research this further?

 
944Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 18:41
1988? You have to go back that far to find a shred of "non conservativeness?"

Just yesterday Rick Perry joked that Gore has "gone to hell" over climate change.
 
945Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 18:52
Yes, well he has to say something to deflect from that particular flaw in his resume. And yes I had already ran across that in researching along with various small signs of conservatism. Such as supporting the current definition of marriage, a good tort reform record, parental notification.

Put that against supporting RINO's and Dems for president, attending Builderberger meetings, intense support for the Ucanamex highway.

 
946Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 19:01
Perry's father was a prominent local politician, and a Democrat. Thusly, when Perry began his political career, he too, was a Democrat.

He became a Republican in 1989.

As for things that make Perry a "Conservative" to me:

He is a TRUE fiscal conservative who has rejected calls to increase Texas' sales tax or create a state income tax, and balanced the state budget.

He is anti-abortion. He signed into law a bill that required girls under 18 to notify their parents if they were getting an abortion. He signed that bill in an Evangelical school in Ft. Worth.

He is against gay marriage, and has condemned the Supreme Court decision to strike down anti-sodomy laws.

When the Rev. John Hagee stated, "If you live your life and don't confess your sins to God Almighty through the authority of Christ and His blood, I'm going to say this very plainly, you're going straight to hell with a nonstop ticket," Perry was asked if he agreed with that statement and said "It is my faith, and I'm a believer of that."

He is pro-death penalty.

He rejects the regulation of greenhouse gases.

He fast tracked the permit process of coal plants, limiting the time for the public to comment.

He believes strongly in state sovereignty, and has even proposed Texas secede from the Union. He also said "Gov. Perry said, "I believe that our federal government has become oppressive in its size, its intrusion into the lives of our citizens, and its interference with the affairs of our state. That is why I am here today to express my unwavering support for efforts all across our country to reaffirm the states' rights affirmed by the Tenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. I believe that returning to the letter and spirit of the U.S. Constitution and its essential 10th Amendment will free our state from undue regulations, and ultimately strengthen our Union."

He rejected stimulus money.

He's a conservative.
 
947Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 19:06
RINO's in Texas have to be somewhere to the right of Olympia Snow. That's all that tells us.
 
948Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 19:22
Reagan didn't subscribe to the idea of RINOs. It's a post-Reagan slur that attempts to negatively brand any moderate Republican by the far right, represented here by those who almost comically have deluded themselves that they, and only they, are 'true conservatives' intead of whack jobs.
 
949Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 19:48
Reagan didn't believe in turning away 'moderate' voters and allies. [those without conservative principles] That is different than endorsing RINO's and boosting their careers at the expense of conservatives as McCain is doing. McCain and you would-be friends of the Rep party are trying to sweep conservatives from the party all the while declaiming partisanship. You are as transparent as glass.
 
950Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 19:57
You are as transparent as glass.

IOW, honest.
 
951Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 20:23
From another thread:

The marxist/globalist will use muslim violence as their excuse to disarm everyone.
And they won't stop at removing the gun, they will insist on removing religion and freedom of thot.


Ya see, you've convinced yourself that this type of thinking is 'true conservatism.'

Let me reiterate. It's comical, not conservative.


 
952bibA
      ID: 3510191216
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 20:53
Reagan, your true conservative hero.

The first president to have been divorced, dumping Jane for Nancy.

The conservative desire to outlaw abortion was never seriously pursued by Reagan.

He negotiated with the Evil Empire, and even compromised with the Soviets on arms control.

His promise to lead an assault on entitlements never materialized; instead he saved Social Security in 1983.

And he repeatedly ignored the fundamental conservative dogma that taxes should never be raised. He raised taxes in 1983 with a gasoline tax and once more in 1984, this time by $50 billion over three years, mainly through closing tax loopholes for business.

The historic Tax Reform Act of 1986, though it achieved the supply side goal of lowering individual income tax rates, was actually a progressive reform. The plan imposed the largest corporate tax increase in history. Just two years after declaring, "there is no justification" for taxing corporate income, he raised corporate taxes by $120 billion over five years and closed corporate tax loopholes worth about $300 billion over that same period. Didn't he raise taxes something like eleven times?

Reagan cut and ran from Beirut.

He sold arms to Iran!

Ronald Reagan was the one who gave illegal immigrants amnesty in the first place!
 
953Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 21:46
The art of the possible. He did what he could, picked his battles. He got more accomplished in a conservative vain than all the other presidents in my lifetime combined, and he made the word liberal a dirty word down to this day among the rudderless middle of the electorate. Putin is only now attempting to re-establish the evil empire. There is only one Hugo Chavez in South America instead of the number SZ wishes there were and would have been had there been enuff Jimmy Carter clones in office.

 
954Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 22:08
You miss the point. Reagan wouldn't be considered a RINO because of his conservative accomplishments.

Reagan never, ever attacked another politician personally. He succeeded in getting elected and getting his agenda passed because he refused to get into that gutter that you use as a litmus test for "conservatism." As you inadvertently pointed out, his success for you is bound up in how much he angered a certain segment of Americans. Reagan would be horrified that his legacy is being measured in that way.

He would also be horrified in the conflation between religion and politics that the Right has embraced. His belief in God didn't require that other Americans follow laws designed around his brand of Christianity.

Reagan's simple humility and humanity made him an attractive and effective politician. Those are exactly the qualities missing from the current GOP and those who claw at the mythical label of "Reagan follower."
 
955Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 23:36
You are no more a fitting arbiter of what is the essence of Reagan, than Tree is an expert on true christianity.

Which doesn't stop you from pretending.

 
956DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 00:25
Neither are you, a fringe cultist in every sense of the word, a fair assessor of what Reagan or any other Americans think.
 
957Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 00:59
One of the reasons that I think that Obama has the potential to be another Reagan is the irrationality of the Right that mimics the wackiness (and the assumption of entitlement) of the Democratic Party circa 1975.

Look at the sheer volume of hatred, combined with this snobbishness of "authenticity" that they alone define (and redefine) as needed.

Nowadays they are reduced to demonstrating how much they anger the "other side" as a counting stat toward their street cred.
 
958Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 01:31
Tree is an expert on true christianity.

never claimed to be an expert on one. But i certainly know that your behaviour on these forums is about as un-Christian as it gets.
 
959Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 03:12
See the thing is, tree, greatone, sarge and others have actually called the God of Noah immoral for bringing the flood.

They know and are deliberately fighting him.

Tree, you are greatly mistaken about the reception he would give you over those statements.

In fact you'd call him un-Christian no doubt.

 
960Bauxman
      ID: 2110171217
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 05:57
The art of the possible. He did what he could, picked his battles. He got more accomplished in a conservative vain than all the other presidents in my lifetime combined, and he made the word liberal a dirty word down to this day among the rudderless middle of the electorate. Putin is only now attempting to re-establish the evil empire. There is only one Hugo Chavez in South America instead of the number SZ wishes there were and would have been had there been enuff Jimmy Carter clones in office.

All those points are true but nothing compares to the slaughter he enacted on tax rates and our economy boomed for 25 years as a result. Obama could learn A LOT from Reagan, but sadly Obama had his chance with the first stimulus package and failed miserably.
 
961sarge33rd
      ID: 191121188
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 09:21
See the thing is, tree, greatone, sarge and others have actually called the God of Noah immoral for bringing the flood.

I call BS. I never said any such thing. What I have said, is that the Bible is a work of fiction. NOT, the same as the quote you are attributing to me.
 
962bibA
      ID: 3510191216
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 10:59
My point in 952 was that, although you two would never admit it, if Obama were to have the same policies as some of Reagan's, he would be attacked unmercifully by a hypocritical right.
 
963Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 11:18
if Obama were to have the same policies as some of Reagan's, he would be attacked unmercifully by a hypocritical right.

So, if Obama were to fire 11,000 air traffic controllers, the right would get hysterical and call it a Marxist plot to destroy America?
 
964Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 11:23
Oh, yeah he would! That would be proof that he was a failure as Commander-in-Chief.
 
965DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 11:24
"Putin is only now attempting to re-establish the evil empire."

Um, LOL. You've been spending far too much time in your hyperbolic (sic) chamber.
 
966DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 11:26
If Obama singlehandedly invented a magic pill that turned people's feces into pixie dust that instantly created world peace and an eternal end to any world hunger, these clowns would be deriding it as an attempt to attack agriculture and the defense industry and create a Marxist global economy.
 
967Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 14:28
Dwetz

Putin has recently invaded a former colony militarily and used assassination to install their selected figureheads in others. He's proposed a counter to NATO and punished those former colonies who don't toe the line by threatening to withhold monopoly energy shipments.

Evil empire stuff by my standards. Any number of experts on the trend Putin is on will tell you he is flexing those old muscles we thot Russia had abandoned. If there is any hyperbole involved in saying the evil empire is back, it's only a matter of degree, it's still an objective fact.

 
968DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 14:34
My objection was not that he was trying to put the evil empire together, my objection was that you think he has just started trying to do so.
 
969Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Dec 21, 2009, 18:31
Senator sparks controversy with call for prayers

"What the American people ought to pray is that somebody can't make the vote tonight," (Republican Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma) said. "That's what they ought to pray."

Predictably, many took offense to Coburn's remark, which many think was aimed squarely at ailing 92-year-old Democratic Sen. Robert Byrd of West Virginia. When it came his turn to speak, Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., lashed out at Coburn for "invoking God's name in prayer for political purposes...to wish misfortune on one of our colleagues." Saying that he was troubled by what Coburn had said, Durbin also called on him to return to the floor to "explain exactly what he meant," an invitation Coburn did not accept.


following up, in this column from the Washington Post...

It was difficult to escape the conclusion that Coburn was referring to the 92-year-old, wheelchair-bound Sen. Robert Byrd (D-W.V.) who has been in and out of hospitals and lay at home ailing. It would not be easy for Byrd to get out of bed in the wee hours with deep snow on the ground and ice on the roads -- but without his vote, Democrats wouldn't have the 60 they needed...

...Coburn was wearing blue jeans, an argyle sweater and a tweed jacket with elbow patches when he walked back into the chamber a few minutes before 1 a.m. He watched without expression when Byrd was wheeled in, dabbing his eyes and nose with tissues, his complexion pale. When his name was called, Byrd shot his right index finger into the air as he shouted "aye," then pumped his left fist in defiance.
 
970Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 06:32
The good die young.
 
971DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 10:19
Durbin was right. It's a disgusting sentiment, from you OR Coburn. You should be ashamed of yourself.
 
972sarge33rd
      ID: 521132229
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 10:32
because of the old adage cited in 970; I am confident I will live to harass the rightwing, for at least another 650 years. :)
 
973Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 10:41
The good die young.

and wishing ill will on another is a foul sentiment.

granted, it's something most of us are guilty of, but i expect more from our elected officials, especially in regards to how they treat their fellow colleagues in Congress.

Praying for sickness and/or death. That's a lovely thing.
 
974jedman
      Dude
      ID: 315192219
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 11:08
I absolutely do not endorse what Coburn said. Maybe pray that somebody will change their mind.
But let's just be fair and say it goes both ways.
How about Whitehouse, D-RI saying this

But Democrats weren't in the best position to take the high road Sunday evening. One of their own members, Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (R.I.) had just delivered an overwrought jeremiad comparing the Republicans to Nazis on Kristallnacht, lynch mobs of the South, and bloodthirsty crowds of the French Revolution.

"Too many colleagues are embarked on a desperate, no-holds-barred mission of propaganda, obstruction and fear," he said. "History cautions us of the excesses to which these malignant, vindictive passions can ultimately lead. Tumbrils have rolled through taunting crowds. Broken glass has sparkled in darkened streets. Strange fruit has hung from southern trees." Assuming the role of Old Testament prophet, Whitehouse promised a "day of judgment" and a "day of reckoning" for Republicans.

Politics is just so ugly and it seems to be getting worse.

Good thing none of that is going to happen here anymore with the new rules:)
 
975sarge33rd
      ID: 521132229
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 11:15
Agreed jedman. NEITHER party, holds the "moral high ground" anymore. Both seem to take far too much joy, in painting the other as Nazis, or unAmerican, or blah-blah-blah.

If those in office would simply spend 1/2 the enrgy on working together as they do in divisive tactics; we'd all be far better off. Unfortunately for we citizens, politics is a tactical game of win-or-lose. Long as that's the reality, I think the current environment is unlikely to change in any meaningful fashion.
 
976Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 11:23
I agree, Jedman. Pretty much any Nazi references are simply wrong.

Nevertheless, comments directed at a particular Senator in the hopes that that Senator gets sick and/or dies so as not vote on something rises to a particular level ass-ness, IMO. It is one thing to compare loud yahoos with Nazis (wrong) and quite another to openly hope that your 92-year-old colleague meets with misfortune (really wrong).
 
977Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 11:28
The good die young. - B

and wishing ill will on another is a foul sentiment. - T

Where did I wish ill on anyone?

 
978Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:07
You two interacting will never end in anything positive. Just
leave eachother alone.

For the good of the forum.
 
979Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:44
Jed - agreed. right now, both sides are down in the mud. I do think wishing ill will on another senator though, is taking it to a new low.

of course, it just means someone else will top (bottom?) that next.

and wishing ill will on another is a foul sentiment. - T

Where did I wish ill on anyone?
.

before this gets out of hand, i was referencing Coburn's comments. Not anything you said.

 
980Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:45
Please be clear.
 
981DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:48
If not referring to a 92 year old and implying that he was not good by using that sentence (which may or may not be a valid statement, but it's still in poor taste), what exactly did you mean?

The intent seemed pretty obvious to me, but please feel free to correct my mistake.
 
982Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 12:59
We were one Dorian Gray's mirror away from staving off marxism in the senate.
 
983DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:10
That didn't exactly clear things up.

Just say it, you think he's a bad person and you wish he was dead.
 
984Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:18
When Marxism is reflected in stocks for private insurance companies spiking as a result of this bill, I think there is a massive misreading of what "Marxism" actually means.
 
985Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:20
OMG, it just means that for a brief period the government will be subsidizing private insurance policies.

Those buyers will be sure to bail before the next iteration of Obama's tinkering.

 
986Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:26
Riiiiight. Someday, like the Rapture, all will be revealed, despite the facts on the ground. If we only just believe enough?
 
987Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:42
Obama has been perfectly clear in his support for 100% total central planning and control. Zero freedom.

We don't have to wait at all to know exactly what their endgame is.

 
988Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:50
What is the endgame and do you have quotes to support what you think it might be?
 
989DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 13:54
He'll have quotes... from long-dead authors and third-cousin associates. And he'll assert that those are one and the same with reality. And we'll all tell him why he's wrong, and he'll insist that no, he's right and everyone else is wrong.

Not worth having the discussion.
 
990Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 14:00
Is it fair that if Baldwin insists on referring to Obama as a proponent of Marxism that it's fair to refer to Sarah Palin as a proponent of Bimboism?
 
991DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 14:13
Probably not. Amusing, yes. Equally on topic, yes. Fair, nah.
 
992Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 14:15
Obama has been perfectly clear in his support for 100% total central planning and control. Zero freedom.

This is demonstrably false. Read any of his position papers during the campaign and at the White House (they are all available). Step one of any "central planning" would be to get rid of private companies. It would certainly *not* be to require citizens to purchase insurance from private companies. This is the opposite of marxism, in fact.
 
993Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 14:33
100% total central planning and control. Zero freedom.

I sometimes wonder if hatred for a perceived MSM is the cause for ignoring current events.

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- Meeting with 12 executives representing small banks, President Barack Obama vowed Tuesday to press federal agencies to "cut some of the regulatory red tape" that may be limiting the ability of community bankers to lend more as the economy recovers.

It would seem to me that if the president's goal is 100% total central planning and control and zero freedom, he would attempt to regulate the smaller banks out of existence.
 
994Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 16:35
Rep. Parker Griffith, a freshman Democrat from Alabama, announced Tuesday that he's switching parties to become a Republican.

"I have become increasingly concerned that the bills and policies pushed by the current Democratic leadership are not good for north Alabama or our nation," Griffith said during a press conference Tuesday.
 
995DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 16:39
*shrug* Good for him, I say, if that's what he believes. Much like Specter switching parties a while back, and for that matter like most political party switches, the person's ideology hasn't changed, but the label has.
 
996Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 16:44
Griffith never voted with Dems anyway--no real problem either way and seemingly the GOP was a better fit for his politics.
 
997Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 16:52
I should probably also note that Griffith's seat is very vulnerable. Like Arlen Spector, I suspect he's switching mostly to try to improve his odds of keeping his job.
 
1000DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 20:52
Um, you posted this in entirely the wrong thread. Go to bed.
 
1001walk
      ID: 44111268
      Sun, Dec 27, 2009, 10:19
The other Dowd\

Today's op-ed in the NYT by Maureen Dowd features her exact opposite, brother. If Maureen can find it appropriate to give = time to the other viewpoint, then I think I should, too, in posting a link to this article. Enjoy conservatives...
 
1002Perm Dude
      ID: 431146312
      Thu, Dec 31, 2009, 13:30
Bruce Bartlett examines the cost of an "all or nothing" GOP
 
1003Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sun, Jan 03, 2010, 15:15
GOP cash woes threaten House bids
 
1004Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jan 03, 2010, 15:30
Hmmm. I think the money will be there when they want to be. We're 10 months out--most races haven't even begun.
 
1005Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Jan 05, 2010, 10:38
oh, this could get good...

Republican Party Chairman Michael Steele offers a simple explanation for why the GOP all too often lost touch with typical Americans since the Ronald Reagan era: "We screwed up," he claims in a new book offering a blueprint for the party's resurgence.

That "we" includes the last two Republican presidents and the most recent Republican candidate for president.
 
1006sarge33rd
      ID: 3604259
      Tue, Jan 05, 2010, 13:28
reading that article Tree, it is apparent that the RNC STILL doesn't get it.
 
1007Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Jan 05, 2010, 17:01
If they won't act conservative when they get in office as has been the rule rather than the exception it is no wonder it doesn't rain.

McCain is running around offering George Soros' money to any whore who will take it, which isn't helpful.

 
1008Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Jan 05, 2010, 17:22
Florida Republican party chairman quits amid splits
 
1009DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Jan 05, 2010, 19:00
Because, according to Boldwin campaign spending limits are awful ideas which corrupt democracy--except when the guy with the money is spending it on people you don't like, in which case it's an abomination which needs to be destroyed at all costs.
 
1010Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 05, 2010, 20:03
It is to be expected. When you go on a campaign (as the GOP has) of poisoning the town well, you are going to have some problems since you have to drink from it yourself.

All short-term, Karl Rove-like thinking. A year from now we'll wonder why the GOP decided to piss away all its political capital in this way.
 
1011Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 06, 2010, 05:19
"We'll wonder" - PD

The MSM and their sheep spend very little time thinking about the marxist takeover of the democratic party machinery as well as the neocon takeover of the republican party machinery.

 
1012Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 06, 2010, 10:25
The MSM spend very little time, in general, on imaginary things.
 
1013Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Wed, Jan 06, 2010, 10:45
While PD is going off all triumphalist...

Why no mention of Dorgan and Dodd refusing to run again because they would lose?

Why is Ben Nelson running scared?

Why is my House rep running ads already to cover her butt for refusing to run townhalls and insisting on voting for commie-care?

 
1014Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Jan 06, 2010, 11:27
Why no mention of Dorgan and Dodd refusing to run again because they would lose?

well, never mind the fact that's pure speculation on your part, in regards to your reasons for them not running.

as for posting the news they're not running, you could have easily posted it in this thread.
 
1015Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Jan 06, 2010, 11:37
Dodd was going to lose, no doubt about that. Dorgan's numbers were pretty good, though.
 
1016Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jan 06, 2010, 11:41
I'm not sure who is failing to mention things. This is information all over the cable news networks, the political blogs, and radio.

Of course, many of us have a life to live, so worrying about elections this far out has the scent of a vacuous life from those complaining that we don't have enough coverage of it yet.

End of the day: The Wacky Right will claim that they "won" no matter what happens in the election. Feeding them good information is a waste of hope.
 
1017Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 07:41
So if they win back the house it's irrelevent?

By the way this wacky Reid quote is decodable when you understand how unpopular commie-care is. He is expecting negative repercussions to the Dem party from pushing this thru, as serious as the loss of the lock on the south dems had in the pre-LBJ era. Indeed Americans were blissfully unaware of just how belligerantly marxist the democrat party was until this woke them up. Too little too late in my estimation but Dorgan and Dodd are only the tip of the iceberg.

 
1018Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 10:03
Too little too late in my estimation but Dorgan and Dodd are only the tip of the iceberg.

i think a point lost on all those "celebrating" these things is the fact that the Dems now have a much stronger chance of holding onto this seat with Dodd now out of the picture.

Dodd was not terrribly popular, and could have actually lost the seat to the Republicans.

Richard Blumenthal, CT's very popular AG, will see the nod now, and could likely win. The Republicans aren't exactly throwing quality candidates against him with former Rep. Rob Simmons and, Linda McMahon, the former CEO of World Wrestling Entertainment looking for the Republican nod.

McMahon has the money, but considering the programming her company has put on the air for the last decade, i can't imagine Republicans or Conservatives voting for her.
 
1019Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 10:06
Indeed Americans were blissfully unaware of just how belligerantly marxist the democrat party was until this woke them up

Dorgan and Dodd are belligerantly marxist? And Americans are awakened to this, when the reality is that it represents a fringe element of Americans?

That's not to say that Democrats aren't vulnerable in the fall, but it has nothing to do with them being belligerantly marxist as a party anymore than Republican vulnerability in 2006 and 2008 was a result of the party being belligerantly fscist, or some other demonizing characterization.
 
1020Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Thu, Jan 07, 2010, 17:06
Dodd is the penultimate marxist practitioner of the Cloward-Piven strategy of sabotaging America so as to eventually turn it marxist. [They're calling it communitarian these days] Being the foremost stumbling block to reforming the Community Reinvestment Act, he bears exceptional responsibility for the disasterous results.

Dorgan is what used to be called a yellow-dog democrat until people like Dodd choked them so beligerantly in their chokehold pull to the left that they turned into blue-dogs.

 
1021Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Jan 08, 2010, 10:41
Dodd is the penultimate marxist practitioner of the Cloward-Piven strategy of sabotaging America so as to eventually turn it marxist.

Your nostalgic longing for the glory days of '50s McCarthyism appears to have clouded any reality as to what constitutes a marxist, a term you use recklessly and irresponsibly.
In Dodd's three congressional and five Senate terms, there must be mountains of evidence that Dodd was committed to swelling the welfare ranks in an effort to cause economic chaos and destroy our capitalist economy, if he's the penultimate marxist practitioner of the Cloward-Piven strategy that you claim.
If your claim is that the CRA is a marxist conspiracy with Dodd a major conspirator, I am compltely baffled. How does the intention of providing private ownership for poor and minorities reconcile with the tenets of marxism, which would be better defined by the state building and providing public housing ala Cabrini Green?
That's not to say that the CRA wasn't an element that caused the housing bubble to burst, or that Dodd's role wasn't prime in allowing that to fester, but it hardly rises to the description of promoting the Cloward-Piven strategy of sabotaging America so as to eventually turn it marxist.
As I asked but never received long ago when you attempted to put the entire economic meltdown at the feet of the CRA, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and ACORN, can you provide a percentage of toxic assets that can be attributed to said entities and politicians?
But you might want to look at this uncompleted high rise shell in Phoenix as an example of the free market's contribution to the disasterous results, an example just screaming for investigation.

How many toxic CRA loans at even $200,000 does it take to equal just the one case of toxic properties created by bankrupt Mortgages Ltd.?
 
1022Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Jan 08, 2010, 18:07
Just for starters there is no comparison between forcing banks to loan to millions of people without any reasonable hope of repaying, before the bubble bursts...and a finanicially sound LTD which runs into trouble when the bubble bursts.
 
1023Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Jan 08, 2010, 18:13
And I don't believe anyone who knows what they are talking about blames the sub-prime mortgage and derivatives fiasco on predatory lending on the scale of your second link.
 
1024Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Jan 08, 2010, 18:21
How does the intention of providing private ownership for poor and minorities reconcile with the tenets of marxism, which would be better defined by the state building and providing public housing ala Cabrini Green?

Dodd was fully warned that the CRA was going to crash and burn Fannie and Freddie and he insisted on building that house of cards knowing full well that the public would end up eating those bad loans. Now he expects the government to let those bad borrowers to keep those homes while the government forces the banks to renegotiate, accept losses on behalf of those bad borrowers and the public to partly subsidize the process.

 
1025Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sun, Jan 10, 2010, 18:32
More obstructionism...

This will hopefully blow over. Comparing Reid's comments - which were about the voting habits of the American public, to Lott's - in which he said his home state of Mississippi had supported Segregationist Strom Thurmond in the presidential election of 1948 and was "proud of it."

He followed that up with one of the more bone-headed statements in US political statements when he said "And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years, either."

Lott refused to apologize initially. Reid did.

Lott did not get support from African-Americans, even in his own party. He didn't even get the support from other senators in his own party - at least in part due to their own selfish reasons.

Reid has gotten support from everyone from Obama to Al Sharpton to House Majority Whip Jim Clyburn (D-S.C.), the highest-ranking African-American in Congress, to Nevada Senate Majority Leader Steven Horsford, the top african-american politician in Reid’s home state to Douglas Wilder.

Many - including Sharpton and Wilder - were critical of Reid's comments, but said he should not be forced to resign.

Perhaps that right now is the biggest difference between the Democrats and the Republicans.

Whether it's their own party or the entire country, Republicans seem to want to tear down, obstruct, or stop entirely.

The Democrats are united in bringing this country together, and keeping their party intact.
 
1026Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sun, Jan 10, 2010, 22:50
The Democrats are united in bringing this country together, and keeping their party intact.-The progressives in your party are not happy with the healthcare (no public option) and they are not happy with the sending of troops to Afghanistan. I would have to say there is in- fighting with both parties. So as long as there is in-fighting in both parties and the fighting between the parties, it will be a long time before you see this country brought together.
 
1027Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 00:19
As for your comments on Reid and Lott, to me that is nothing but school yard antics. I dont care who Reid got support from. Let the people of Nevada decide if he returns or not. And from what I am hearing hes not doing well in the polls over there. And Im sure after what he said he probably lost some more votes. And another thing, neither one of those comments are going to unite the country.
 
1028Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 06:37
The Democrats are united in bringing this country together, and keeping their party intact-In a weird way health care is bringing people together. Olberman says he will go to jail instead of buying healthcare in the way the billis written right now.(he wants to buy into a public option) Limbaugh says he will go to jail also because he would rather pay cash then buy health insurance. Those 2 in the same cell. Now that is bringing the country together.
 
1029Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:08
The Democrats are united in bringing this country together

OMG

It's never been so polarized. Take in a townhall meeting. They're on youtube.

 
1030Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:30
I believe that was sarcasm, Boldwin. Neither political party has any real interest in 'bringing the country together'. However the country is no more divided now than it was during most of the Bush administration. Neither party is necessarily deserving of blame, either.

The Harry Reid incident is notable for me for two reasons.

First, the FNC coverage was nothing short of shameless yesterday. At least twice every hour, and almost each time, Reid's statements were compared with Trent Lott's statements at Strom Thurmond's birthday party 7 or 8 years ago, in attempt to claim leftist hypocrisy. As Tree points out, not only are the two comments (or the way they were handled) not really comparable, teh coverage makes rather comical hypocrits of FNC, given that their coverage of the Lott incident as I recall was to downplay the relevence of it and to criticize the supposed field day the left was having. Is anyone surprised they chose to settle the score on a 7 year-old grudge rather than stick to their own stated standards?

The second is that last year there were numerous Republican officials who publicly made racially insensitive or otherwise racially charged statements. See posts 638, 708, 791 and 804 for some examples. So in the spirit of bipartisanship, even though Reid's statement wasn't public, I have no problem smacking him on his forehead over his really stupid choice of words.
 
1031Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:38
I find it unfortunate.

Reids political demise must be seen clearly as a result of his commie-care bill.

 
1032Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:53
1030-All the MSM are making hay on this newly released book. It sells soap. While this is going on how are the negotiations on the health care bill going. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
 
1033Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 09:31
good take on Reid's comments...
 
1034Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 08:15
My God, is there any thinking person who takes Liz Cheney seriously?



Gearge ("I've never worn a pair of blue jeans in my life") Will is probably a bit out of touch but the poor guy must wake up every morning wondering WTF happened to American conservatism.
 
1035Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jan 26, 2010, 13:22
NH State Legislator: "NH is selling children to gay couples for $10000 each."

I genuinely LOL at his use of metaphors:

So because I disagree on something that's pushed down my throat, I'm supposed to roll over because, representative, you think it's normal? I'm sorry you got the wrong person.
 
1036Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 19:34
RNC a little embarrassed at the location for their winter meeting: Waikiki, Hawai'i

Another boneheaded Michael Steele idea! Long live Michael Steele!
 
1037DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Jan 28, 2010, 20:13
Meh. I mean, I guess, but this really doesn't rise to the level of incompetence in my opinion. I guess I just don't see what the big deal is.
 
1038Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Fri, Jan 29, 2010, 05:06
like i said the Dems like to define the Republican party. Same old school yard antics.
 
1039Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Jan 29, 2010, 07:14
like i said the Dems like to define the Republican party.

i'm wondering if you actually read the article.

the first comment is from a Republican, and the article goes on to explain why many prominent Republicans opted to go.

in fact:
Officially, Democrats are withholding their fire, in part because Obama vacationed here over the holidays.

“We have no problem whatsoever with the RNC spending time in our 50th state and the birthplace of the president,” said Democratic National Committee spokesman Hari Sevugan.
 
1040Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jan 29, 2010, 17:29
The GOP apparently uses "deficit reduction" as a talking point rather than a policy direction. Not one Republican Senator voted to re-impose pay-as-you-go rules for budget outlays.

Not one. Jesus. This was a straight vote on this issue without any amendments or earmarks.

This is like Republicans complaining about abortion, the Dems offering to outlaw all third trimester abortions, and for all Republicans to vote against it.
 
1041Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Jan 29, 2010, 19:55

GOP adopts platform test for Republican candidates


Well, that about knocks Scott Brown out of the party...
 
1042Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sun, Jan 31, 2010, 15:08
Scott Brown Republicans
 
1043Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sun, Jan 31, 2010, 18:31
Here's an interesting possibility for NY's senate race. Kudlow to challenge Schumer?

Kudlow, who anchors CNBC’s “The Kudlow Report” each weeknight, is a nationally syndicated columnist who is also a blogger. He is also head of Kudlow and Co., an economic research firm.

Having Kudlow as a candidate will make it harder to claim that the mainstream media is in the tank for Obama, since Kudlow works for NBC. And although Kudlow is a vigorous critic of Obama and his economic policies, it's usually framed in a context of policy, as opposed to the redmeat attacks of Fox news pundits and the rightwing radio and blogosphere.

According to Newsmax,

the prospect of unseating Schumer in blue state New York seemed a long shot. First elected in 1998, he serves as the vice chairman of the Senate Democratic Caucus and is considered the third most powerful Democrat in the Senate. He won re-election in 2004 with more than 70 percent of the vote, and is said to have amassed a campaign war chest of more than $30 million for this year’s race. .

If Kudlow runs and beats Schumer, then Republicans can crow like they are now about Brown. But Kudlow, despite his TV celebrity, is a rather stiff personality, and has never experienced the rigors of a political campaign as a candidate. I would think he has an uphill battle, to say the least.

 
1044Tree, on lunch
      ID: 570552512
      Wed, Feb 03, 2010, 13:49
Welcome to the Tea Party: Infighting plagues conservative group
 
1045Tree, on lunch
      ID: 570552512
      Thu, Feb 04, 2010, 13:58
Fractures emerge as Tea Party convenes

The Tea Party developed last year in protest to what its supporters saw as overspending in Washington -- by both Republicans and Democrats -- following the stimulus bill, the bank bailouts and President Obama's budget.

The anger over alleged fiscal irresponsibility in Washington was shared by a wider spectrum of voters, including independents, said John Avlon, author of "Wingnuts: How the Lunatic Fringe is Hijacking America."

Over the year, the Tea Party grew from dozens to hundreds of loosely linked groups around the country.

But as it expanded, the protests became more partisan in nature, and the Tea Party established itself as an uprising to the right of the Republican Party. While independent voters were reacting against the polarization of the two major parties, the Tea Partiers wanted Republicans and Democrats to become more polarized, Avlon said.

"What happened over the course of the summer as the town hall [meetings] got hijacked, you started to see a new kind of activist taking over the Tea Party movement," Avlon said. "As the fringe has blurred with the base, you've seen more unhinged attacks proliferate, and there still hasn't been a transition to a positive agenda."
 
1046Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Thu, Feb 04, 2010, 14:14
I'm not sure that I agree that the movement started off as a non-partisan entity. Seemed pretty partisan to me right from the start. Head over to the 'teabag day' thread and look at photos from the first day of tea party rallying, 4/15/09. I'd guarantee that for every sign carried that day that called out the GOP or any Republican by name, there were 10 that asked for Obama's birth certificate.
 
1047Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 01:40
Turning it up to 11: Sen. Shelby blocks all Obama nominations until he gets his money.
 
1048Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 03:48
From the article in 1047:
Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL) has put an extraordinary "blanket hold" on at least 70 nominations President Obama has sent to the Senate, according to multiple reports this evening. The hold means no nominations can move forward unless Senate Democrats can secure a 60-member cloture vote to break it, or until Shelby lifts the hold.

"While holds are frequent," CongressDaily's Dan Friedman and Megan Scully report (sub. req.), "Senate aides said a blanket hold represents a far more aggressive use of the power than is normal."


According to the report, Shelby is holding Obama's nominees hostage until a pair of lucrative programs that would send billions in taxpayer dollars to his home state get back on track. The two programs Shelby wants to move forward or else:

- A $40 billion contract to build air-to-air refueling tankers. From CongressDaily: "Northrop/EADS team would build the planes in Mobile, Ala., but has threatened to pull out of the competition unless the Air Force makes changes to a draft request for proposals." Federal Times offers more details on the tanker deal, and also confirms its connection to the hold.

- An improvised explosive device testing lab for the FBI. From CongressDaily: "[Shelby] is frustrated that the Obama administration won't build" the center, which Shelby earmarked $45 million for in 2008. The center is due to be based "at the Army's Redstone Arsenal."

Though a Shelby spokesperson would not confirm that these programs were behind the blanket hold, the Senator expressed his frustration about the progress on both through a spokesperson to both CongressDaily and the Federal Times.

A San Diego State University professor and Congressional expert told the Mobile paper "he knew of no previous use of a blanket hold" in recent history.
What a scumbag.
 
1049Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 04:12
After all the footdragging wrt nominations the dems have done when the reps were in power that is just ridiculous. Dems invented this tactic in the Reagan years leaving 400 judicial nominees go without hearings the last year of Reagan's term.
 
1050Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 04:36
If so then they were just as deserving of scorn. Admittedly, I was never did take a stand against that activity, hopefully you'll spare me the hypocrite tag since I was maybe 14 years old.

Are you going to man up and criticize Shelby, B? Or will you hide behind the "Dems do it too" defense, saving your sense of outrage for when you can find a Democrat guilty of similar activity again?

My recollection of the Dem's blocking of Bush43's judicial nominees is that it was about issues regarding the nominees themselves, not a tactic used to bring home earmarks. No idea regarding the Reagan stuff you refer to.

And this might be the first time I've ever heard the term "blanket holds".
 
1051Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 04:52
And while you're at it, perhaps you'll weigh in on Kip Bond, who managed to block Obama's nominee for GSA administrator for nine months until yesterday, holding her ransom for a $175 million building project in Kansas City.

The confirmation vote was 94-2.
 
1052Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 06:06
MITH

I think Obama is so dangerous to the country that there is no constitutional tactic out of bounds, no weapon should be unfired, no powder should be spared, no tinder left in the box, no quarter given, no mercy shown.

This is Fidel. This is Chavez. It's life or death.

 
1053Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 06:12
I emphasize, no constitutional tactic. I want this guy someday doddering in a privately owned old folks home muttering about hope and change to no one in particular.
 
1055Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 08:02
1054 was deleted by me. I think it better to let posts 1052/53 stand on their own rather than offer my resposnse, which was obvious enough anyway.
 
1056Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 08:22
This is Fidel. This is Chavez. It's life or death.

No it isn't. What it is is a case of creating an alternative universe where truth and honesty are victims of blind pre-conceived bias.

Had Obama and the Democrats delayed seating Brown and rammed through a health care bill in the interim, you would have had a case. Had Obama not met with Republican lawmakers and fielded their questions live on cable TV, you may have had a case. Does Chavez engage his political opponents in a live Q and A on national TV? No, he closes down opposition media.

Instead, we get "that's my story and I'm stickin to it" claims of Marxist this and Chavez that are not supported by reality, and are steeped in dishonesty. It's embarrassing.
 
1057DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 09:55
"After all the footdragging wrt nominations the dems have done when the reps were in power that is just ridiculous. Dems invented this tactic in the Reagan years leaving 400 judicial nominees go without hearings the last year of Reagan's term."

And you bitched and moaned about it then and it was the Worst Thing Ever.

Now it's okay.

And if the situation were again reversed, it would again be the Worst Thing Ever.

I think "steeped in dishonesty" is a very gentle way of putting it.

 
1058Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 10:01
The disturbing trend is that the more outrageous, the more ridiculous and the more divisive the rhetoric, the more solid the credentials as a conservative these days.

This flies in the face of Buckley, Eisenhower, Goldwater and Reagan conservatism, which was based on measured tones and responsible rhetoric, while maintaining a high level of principle. We seem to be reverting to a McCarthy brand of conservatism, based on emotion, fear and distortion.
Yet, even when McCarthy was at the peak of his celebrity, the Republicans nominated Eisenhower, a moderate by anyone's standards.

Sixty years later, we face a similar situation. Conservatism can be dictated by Limbaugh, Beck and Palin hysterical alarmists, or the more measured tones of Romney, Brown, Buchanan and Will.
 
1059Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 10:42
Dwetz

Does this differ from your positions in both cases?

 
1060DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 11:56
No, it doesn't. I don't think it's Congress's right to sit indefinitely on confirmations without attempting to review them.

I also don't think that "they disagree with me politically on something" works as the sole reason for not confirming most positions. "They're not competent to do their job" is. If the secretary of agriculture nominee likes farm subsidies more than I do, tough cookies. If the secretary of agriculture nominee doesn't know what a grain silo is, we've got a problem.

Of course, in most cases, the nominees being held up have no such problems, everyone knows it, and the ONLY reason to hold them up is to screw up the operation of government. I'm not a fan of the tactic no matter who uses it.

So, now that it isn't about what I believe, you tell me why YOU believe it's OK for Republicans to use the very same tactic that you castigated Democrats for. I'll get my popcorn ready.
 
1061Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 12:02
I don't remember any liberals having any problem with it during the Reagan era.
 
1062DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 12:03
Neither did Reagan! *zing*

Sorry I wasn't on the Internet posting about it between the ages of seven and 15.
 
1063DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 12:05
And B, could you PRETTY PLEASE stop ranting about the faceless group of "liberals" as if that excuses your poor logic in this situation?

If you want to debate specific liberals, there are plenty around.

If you want to just try to say "you liberals" over and over as if they are one monolithic mass, and attribute to them things that are directly contradicted by the specific people posting here, then you aren't the least bit intereste in the logic of the situation, you're just interested in slinging mud, and I really don't see what your point is.
 
1067Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 13:32
The simple thought exercise on this for those on the Right is to imagine the next GOP President having literally all their confirmations on hold by Chuck Schumer, until he gets a number of his pet projects funded.

Such a thing would be just as outrageous, because it would be. End of story.
 
1068Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 15:25
The Dems won't allow a Rep nominee unless he is liberal. I'd be perfectly content if the Reps refuse to seat an Obama judge unless he was a conservative.
 
1069Tree, on lunch
      ID: 570552512
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 15:49
The Dems won't allow a Rep nominee unless he is liberal.

that's entirely subjective. And not just based on the politics of the individual, but on that moment in time.

Scott Brown is a moderate, if not liberal Republican. But right now, many conservatives see him as their Savior, without even knowing his politics.
 
1070Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 16:07
Rep nominee unless he is liberal

Is that even a response? We have, you know, actual history to demonstrate that this is false. Most recently, Dems approved both Gates and LaHood, two Republicans in the Obama Administration.

The scope of the GOP willingness to hold Obama nominations hostage to other political pursuits isn't even a question anymore.
 
1071DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 16:22
"Is that even a response?"

It's not a logical one. I am pretty sure that logic has been defenestrated and is currently plummeting earthward at 9.8 m/s^2 though.
 
1072Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 16:30
The Dems won't allow a Rep nominee unless he is liberal.

If that's true, would it stand to reason that everyone on this list is a "liberal"? I know the first two do not fall in that category for sure.
 
1073Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 19:26
Shelby's office fights back!

This is absolutely the worst thing that can happen to the GOP. Just as things are starting to turn their way, they not only have a guy with the business-as-usual attitude about holding nominees hostage for his earmarks, he's actually digging his heels in unless he gets his money.

Somebody from the GOP leadership needs to sit down with Shelby.
 
1074Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 20:10
You guys are perfectly aware that every Republican going thru the gauntlet had every Dem congressman litmus testing him like crazy to make sure he wasn't in favor of right to life.
 
1075Razor
      ID: 571022618
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 20:21
You guys are perfectly aware that every Republican going thru the gauntlet had every Dem congressman litmus testing him like crazy to make sure he wasn't in favor of right to life.

Proof? Once again, the evidence from the most high profile appointments contradict your argument. And on this issue, those are the only two that matter.
 
1076Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 20:23
You've ever watched CSPAN covering a judicial appointment hearing?
 
1077Razor
      ID: 571022618
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 20:34
You've ever watched CSPAN covering a judicial appointment hearing?

Yes. I watched the last three SCOTUS justices get confirmed, two of which were known to be a) not liberal and b) not pro-abortion. I only engage in these arguments that are so far off topic in the hopes that perhaps that you'll realize that it might prevent future fabrications from being passed off as fact in the forum.
 
1078Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 20:35
I really don't see how you can even compare the questioning of a nominee by a member of the other party with a blanket hold of (now) 70 nominees by a single Senator.

It isn't even a close call.
 
1079Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 20:49
Justices Kennedy and Souter are the sorry result of being forced to come up with nominees who can pass the liberal litmus test.

Were it only the case that liberal presidents were so constrained the opposite direction.

 
1080Razor
      ID: 571022618
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 20:51
Justices Kennedy and Souter are the sorry result of being forced to come up with nominees who can pass the liberal litmus test.

Alito? Roberts?
 
1081Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 20:53
Bork? Thomas?
 
1082Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 20:56
The close questioning is part of the process.

What Shelby is doing is refusing to allow those nominees to even be questioned. Seriously--you see the difference, yes?
 
1083Razor
      ID: 571022618
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 20:58
The Dems won't allow a Rep nominee unless he is liberal.

Alito? Roberts?
 
1084Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 21:22
Bork? Thomas?
 
1085Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 21:32
Thomas, of course, actually is on the Court. He actually refutes your argument (that is, the one you are trying to make instead of answering the larger question of Shelby's shameful money grab).

Do you agree with it, or not? Or is it only when Republicans overspend that you become silent about government spending?
 
1086DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 21:41
"Yes. I watched the last three SCOTUS justices get confirmed, two of which were known to be a) not liberal and b) not pro-abortion. I only engage in these arguments that are so far off topic in the hopes that perhaps that you'll realize that it might prevent future fabrications from being passed off as fact in the forum. "

You, uh, don't get on here much, do ya Razor? :)
 
1087Razor
      ID: 571022618
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 21:53
Boldwin, please reconcile these two statements:
Justices Samuel Alito and John Roberts were successfully confirmed.
Justices Samuel Alito and John Roberts are not "liberal."
with your earlier claim:
The Dems won't allow a Rep nominee unless he is liberal.
 
1088Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 23:11
Seriously--you see the difference, yes?

he sees one difference, and one difference only. The difference between Conservatives, and anyone else.

any other difference is oblivious to him.
 
1089Boldwin
      ID: 26451820
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 23:31
"On January 24, 2006, the Judiciary Committee voted on a straight partisan line, 10-8, to send Alito's nomination to the full Senate."
 
1090Razor
      ID: 571022618
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 23:41
You did not reconcile those statement with your claim. Alito was confirmed. You said "The Dems won't allow a Rep nominee unless he is liberal."
 
1091DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Feb 05, 2010, 23:51
""On January 24, 2006, the Judiciary Committee voted..."

Well, right there is the fundamental difference.

Where's the vote, B? Show me where they've had the vote for Obama's appointments, B.

Oh that's right. You can't. Because THEY HAVEN'T EVEN ALLOWED THE VOTE.

See, that's what people do in a democracy, or a representative republic for that matter. They vote on things. And, normally speaking, the side with the most votes gets their way on things. And, I think you know this but I'll explain it really slow, it is Congress's JOB to review and vote on the nominations.

You get all uppity about the Constitution when you think it suits you, show me where it says that one jerk-off Senator can decide he isn't going to allow the Senate to do it's duty under the Constitution to provide advice and consent on appointments.

"[The President] shall nominate, and, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments."

So, if Shelby wants to vote against every single one of them, he can do that. That's doing his job. NOT allowing a vote is NOT doing his job under the Constitution. Show me where in the Constitution he's allowed to withhold his advice and consent the nominations. There's the plain text of the Constitution right up there.
 
1092Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sat, Feb 06, 2010, 07:02
Actually the Alito nomination is a perfect example for why B is wrong. According to Wiki
The Democratic Senators from Massachusetts, John Kerry and Ted Kennedy, attempted to gain support for a filibuster of the nominee, however they gained little support even within their own party. The Senate voted for cloture on the nomination 72-25.
I'm pretty sure B likely read that line, since it appeard right after the sentence that read, On January 24, 2006, the Judiciary Committee voted on a straight partisan line, 10-8, to send Alito's nomination to the full Senate, which he pasted into 1089. Google that sentemce in quotes. The only places it comes up are the linked Wiki page and this Poliforum page.

That's not very honest debating from you, Mr. Baldwin.
 
1094DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, Feb 06, 2010, 09:22
Mith, we've been trying to muddy the debate with logic and facts for the last two days. It hasn't worked until now, I don't know why you think throwing more facts on the pile is going to make any difference.

Boldwin is convinced that Republicans are entitled to do everything just short of physically assaulting Democrats to disrupt the political process. (He hasn't quite conceded himself that luxury yet, but I'm sure that if George Soros and Nancy Pelosi were on that flight to Detroit on Christmas Day, he might change his tune.)

It's easy to convince yourself of this when you slip full-depth into the idea that massive groups of people with whom you disagree are evil Marxist communists who are deliberately trying to destroy America. Not even certain individuals--he has stated on this forum numerous times, in total seriousness, that an entire range of the political spectrum are deliberately trying to destroy the country that they actually live in themselves.

Once you've gone that far off the deep end, like Beck, and like Boldwin (I'm just pointing out his own words here, don't blame me), minor details like facts no longer matter. They've been pointed out so many times in this thread that it's obvious he truly doesn't care what the facts are. He's convinced that liberals = bad, conservatives = good, it doesn't matter if their behavior is demonstrably not in those categories, he'll either change the subject or attempt to say yet again "yeah, well, they did something almost as bad" as if it justifies it. It's been argued over and over and he persists anyway.

I truly suggest that we all just drop it and move on to some other topic of discussion here, because it's clear that nobody's changing their minds on this one regardless of what mountain of facts there are. So let's move on to a topic where at least we can dig up new facts to educate ourselves on the topics.
 
1095Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sat, Feb 06, 2010, 11:33
Turns out Harry Reid held a blanket hold (excluding defense and judicial nominees - two distinctions Shelby apparently isn't concerned with) over Bush nominees in 2004. As the article notes, Reid's hold was over a his longstanding Yucca Mountain policy (and what looks like a potentially broken promise on the part of the Bush White House) while Shelby's to in attempt to land a $175m earmark.

Still doesn't excuse Reid. I don't recall this issue, I suppose we were all pretty focused on the election at the time and there aren't a lot of reports I can find about it.

This is the article most of teh blogs are citing.

And here's the only follow-up info I could find on how it worked out.
 
1096Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Feb 06, 2010, 11:46
Interesting points, MITH. Some key differences that the piece points out (most notably, that it was not a blanket hold, and was at the end of Bush's first term).

To be clear, however, the amounts we're looking at for Shelby's earmarks are in the billions, not $175 million.
 
1097Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sat, Feb 06, 2010, 11:51
I'm not sure where I got that $175m figure.
 
1098Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Feb 06, 2010, 18:54
The height of flimflamming sanctimoniousness: Congressional Republicanss who opposed and voted against the Recovery Act only to claim credit for the provisions in it that benefit their constituants.
 
1099Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Sun, Feb 07, 2010, 12:03
 
1100Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Feb 07, 2010, 13:26
Half of me hopes America will now wake up to the vacuousness of Sarah Palin. Half of me hopes they'll wake up after she's nominated.

Meanwhile, it seems that "real folks" use manual teleprompters.
 
1101Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 09, 2010, 18:43
Shelby blinks
 
1102Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 19:44
Maddow should fire her writers. Congressional Republicans feed her all the material she needs:
 
1103Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 21:43
"They will not vote for things that even they admit is good policy..."

True, very true. Republicans in Congress measure their self-worth by how much they are against Obama.

It's all good, but the last two minutes are golden.
 
1104Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 00:39
Looks like Dems are making targets of Republicans who bad mouth the stimulus package, yet take credit for the parts of it which are helping their districts. Sen McCaskill sends a sharp letter to Missouri state legislators for decrying the stimulus money while taking about a billion dollars of it to close their budget holes.
 
1105boldwin
      ID: 441481016
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 05:16
The only thing that proves is the fundamental flaw in democracy that people vote themselves other people's money and they think it's great when Robbinghood passes out the trinkets.

Even politicians who know for sure that their voters are steaming mad at government overspending, still believe that those voters will admire that oversized check if it's got a local name on the top line.

Some of those republicans holding oversized checks are going to be shocked when the tea party dumps them in the bay too.

 
1106boldwin
      ID: 441481016
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 05:33
I'd bet my life that a big component of Obama's stimulus was really spent preserving or expanding the ratio of public sector jobs vs private sector jobs, at the expense of a productive America thus preventing the biggest plus we could have gotten from the recession.

It rained but he made sure we didn't get clean.

I'd like to see a Republican show up with a big check at the SEIU union hall as his last political act.

 
1107Tree
      ID: 23143812
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 09:28
Some of those republicans holding oversized checks are going to be shocked when the tea party dumps them in the bay too.

and probably thrilled too. It's interesting to watch the Tea Party fracture the Republican Party, while the Tea Party itself starts to fracture barely a year into its existence.
 
1108Mith
      ID: 43914286
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 09:41
when the tea party dumps them in the bay

They'd have to display integrity as one of their characteristics for me to buy that.

What I see is them cheering on their titular leader as she exposes herself as no less hypocritical and opportunistic as the rest of them. No need to rehash the examples, there are plenty.

Nuclear Gophers fully acknowledged his preference for style over substance when confronted with her shameless diningenuousness after declaring himself a Palinite. That attitude is entirely consistant with what I see from the movement that calls itself "Taxed Enough Already" and has made an enemy of the president who just lowered taxes for 95% of them.

These people are not serious.
 
1109DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 09:52
"I'd bet my life that a big component of Obama's stimulus was really spent preserving or expanding the ratio of public sector jobs vs private sector jobs, at the expense of a productive America thus preventing the biggest plus we could have gotten from the recession."

This is probably a cheap shot, but the first thing I thought here was "one time dealer!" Then I thought better of it.
 
1110Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 10:34
I'd bet my life that a big component of Obama's stimulus was really spent preserving or expanding the ratio of public sector jobs vs private sector jobs, at the expense of a productive America thus preventing the biggest plus we could have gotten from the recession

I genuinely have no idea of why anyone would think that ratio amounts between government/private jobs are worth pursuing for Obama. Any pluses for the stimulus bill for Americans are worth pursuing for Obama, for the simple reason that he would get credit for it all. And good private sector jobs as a result of the stimulus are just as good as government ones when you are out of a job.

Methinks this is just another example of arguing backwards.
 
1111boldwin
      ID: 481371112
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 13:44
I genuinely have no idea of why anyone would think that ratio amounts between government/private jobs are worth pursuing for Obama. - PD

Not a clue, huh?

1) SEIU and AFSCME are among his biggest financial supporters. But you had no idea?

2) You had no idea 'Big Government' meant more public sector jobs, or you honestly think Obama agrees with Bill Clinton *cough* that the era of big government is over?
 
1112Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 14:02
No, my point wasn't one you have to dance around: Why would Obama seek to improve the ratio (as it there was anything in the bill mandating such a thing)? A private sector job is the same as a public one when it comes to doing the short term work, and a private one actually has better legs than a public one. There is no incentive for Obama to favor public jobs over private ones in the long term.

And surely you know that federal employees are not members of AFSCME nor SEIU, yes? So your point seems to be that Obama is paying back these unions by taking people away from jobs in which they might join those unions and into jobs into which they cannot?

Does Sarah Palin write your talking points? It seems you've got a big gripe with Obama and are casting about for ammunition to back up your sincerely held distrust of the guy.
 
1113boldwin
      ID: 481371112
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 16:40
My suggestion is that you redirect some of that energy being slippery and just recognize the blindingly obvious fact that big government socialists think the public sector should be doing everything possible and the individual should be in as little control as possible of his own life.
 
1114Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 17:01
If I come across those "big government socialists" I'll let you know. Most of them left when the last administration was voted out...
 
1115boldwin
      ID: 481371112
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 17:11
Oh really?
National Review's Jim Geraghty sums up Obama's America thus: "Unsustainable is the new normal." Indeed. The other day, Douglas Elmendorf, director of the Congressional Budget Office, described current deficits as "unsustainable." So let's make them even more so. The president tells us, with a straight face, that his grossly irresponsible profligate wastrel of a predecessor took the federal budget on an eight-year joyride, so the only way his sober, fiscally prudent successor can get things under control is to grab the throttle and crank it up to what Mel Brooks in "Spaceballs" (which seems the appropriate comparison) called "Ludicrous Speed."

Obama's spending proposes to take the average Bush deficit for the years 2001-08, and double it, all the way to 2020. To get out of the Bush hole, we need to dig a hole twice as deep for one-and-a-half times as long. And that's according to the official projections of his Economics Czar, Ms. Rose Colored-Glasses. By 2015, the actual hole may be so deep that even if you toss every Obama speech down it on double-spaced paper you still won't be able to fill it up. In the spendthrift Bush days, federal spending as a proportion of GDP averaged 19.6 percent. Obama proposes to crank it up to 25 percent as a permanent feature of life.

But, if they're "unsustainable," what happens when they can no longer be sustained? A failure of bond auctions? A downgraded government debt rating? Reduced GDP growth? Total societal collapse? Mad Max on the New Jersey Turnpike?

...according to USA Today, when the economic downturn began the U.S. Department of Transportation had just one employee making over $170,000. A year and a half later, it has 1,690.

Happy days are here again!

Did you get your pay raise this year? What's that, you don't work for the government? Yes, you do, one way or another. Good luck relying on Obama, Pelosi, Frank and the other Emirs of Kleptocristan "taking action" to "resolve" that.

It's not the "debt" or the "deficit," it's the spending. And the only way to reduce that is with fewer government agencies, fewer government programs, fewer government employees, lower government salaries.

Instead, all four are rocketing up: We are incentivizing unsustainability, and, when it comes to "some collapse down the road," you'll be surprised how short that road is.

- MARK STEYN
 
1116DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 17:31
That would have been a much better article without the poorly-attempted zingers. He does, however, have quite a bit of truth in what he says.

I wonder what Steyn had to say while the deficits were being cranked up. My guess is he was in full cheerleader mode. I'd be pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong.
 
1117Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 17:37
A Mark Steyn article? Really?

Steyn only knows that he is against Obama, even when it makes him look silly. He's certainly not against making numbers up er, being confused by the numbers.

The real problem is that Steyn isn't being honest enough to admit that no project is sustainable over any period of time, which is why one doesn't assume that budget increases will continue forever (put another way--we can't afford to stay in Iraq and Afghanistan forever. This doesn't mean we should get out right away).

The point isn't whether the budget is sustainable (after all, there will be another budget next yet). The point is whether the budget is justifiable given the current economic conditions. And this is the question he (and you) dodges, because the answer isn't one that slams Obama enough.
 
1118boldwin
      ID: 481371112
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 17:42
The answer isn't bribing state and municipalities to keep on public sector employees they cannot afford during a depression.
 
1119DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 17:46
The answer is keeping your revenue from plummeting by not providing handouts to your really wealthy buddies, because they want a sixth yacht.

Or, it was. It's probably too late for that.
 
1120boldwin
      ID: 481371112
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 17:50
Don't forget the bon bons. If only we had taxed the bon bons.
 
1121DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 17:59
*shrug* Don't simultaneously lower revenues and raise spending and then blame the people that come in after you for the problems that big deficits bring with them. It's just stupid.

If your beloved Reaganomics were right, the people with the money would have been investing it and creating jobs and growing the economy. Instead, we lost jobs over those entire eight years.

Hmm.
 
1122boldwin
      ID: 481371112
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 18:05
That is your worst, most wrong-headed post ever. Those tax cuts led to the greatest 20 year bull market ever.
 
1123DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 18:07
I was referring to the last round. How well have those worked?

I knew mentioning Reagan would get a rise out of you though. ;)
 
1124Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 18:23
tax cuts led to the greatest 20 year bull market ever.

Our economy is far, far too complicated to place credit for any single thing that the government does on the bull or bear markets.

I believe that the tax cuts helped. But (by and large), the trickle-down effect was largely overstated, as the wealthy put their tax cuts into financial vehicles rather than straight up business ventures. This drove up real estate prices but there were a ton of other things that helped (including that the federal government, under Bill Clinton, decided to cash in that peace dividend and balance its budget.

Now, of course, the Dow is in a large bull market. But I guess you don't want to talk about bull markets when Democrats are in the White House, eh?
 
1125Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 18:37
Just because the current Right likes what Reagan did but hates it when Obama does the same thing, it is probably worth noting that Reagan's budgets had federal outlays as a percentage of GDP ranging between 21.3% and and 23.5%. And Reagan wasn't fighting two wars or paying for a Social Security as large as Obama has to do.

And Steyn is simply wrong on some numbers. The budget submitted indicates a percentage of 25.4% (for 2010) but it drops to 22.8% (for 2013). Steyn assumes the budget continues the same numbers by taking this year's number and projecting it out, but that same budget says otherwise. This is pretty much the definition of cherry picking.
 
1126biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 18:45
I could more credibly claim Clinton's tax hikes started the greatest 10 year bull market ever.

But won't, and I will avoid looking like a simpleton.
 
1127boldwin
      ID: 481371112
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 22:42
bili

Clinton was largely prevented from screwing up Reagan's bull market when he quickly lost control of congress and the purse strings and you know it.

But if you must credit a Dem, credit Carter for so masterfully lowering the market's expectations ahead of Reagan.
 
1128Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 22:48
credit Carter for so masterfully lowering the market's expectations ahead of Reagan.

So, you would credit Bush for so masterfully lowering the market's expectations ahead of Obama.
 
1129boldwin
      ID: 481371112
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 22:50
Nope, I'll hand that one to the House Banking committee and George Soros.
 
1130Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 23:02
The House Banking committee and George Soros are responsible for the S&P 500 gaining 60% in the last year? Keep it up boys!
 
1131Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 23:04
Woo hoo!
 
1132DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 23:24
See, now you're just being ridiculous. He's only responsible for the individual minutes it goes down. The minutes it goes up was thanks to the Bush tax cuts and because God hates gays.
 
1133Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Feb 12, 2010, 11:13
oh no! a comic book made fun of us! (but not really)

are they embarrassed by their own signs?
 
1134Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Feb 12, 2010, 11:36
They seem to be embarrassed by the all-white nature of the protests as well.
 
1135biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Feb 12, 2010, 13:26
I think it's the tea-baggers=anti-American white-supremists angle that's pissing them off.

I'm sure that there are some I could feel pretty good about tarring with that brush, but certainly not all.

Of course, if you associate and throw red-meat to those types, you gotta expect some spatter.
 
1136Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 20:50
 
1137Tree
      ID: 23143812
      Fri, Feb 19, 2010, 13:51
Palin tells Teabaggers to join the system...

Tea Party favorite Sarah Palin took a practical approach to this grassroots political movement Tuesday, telling Arkansas Republicans that Tea Party candidates will not win unless they join an established political party.

 
1138Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Fri, Feb 19, 2010, 14:02
Remember the claims as recently as a few months ago, that the tea party movement is non-partisan?

So much for all that, I guess.
 
1139Boldwin
      ID: 2155174
      Fri, Feb 19, 2010, 15:38
Everyone knows that the Republican establishment will bend every effort to coopt them and will succeed to some degree naturally since their members largely originate from the party of Reagan. Nevertheless there is considerable antipathy towards BOTH parties within the movement. That is undeniable.
 
1140Boldwin
      ID: 2155174
      Fri, Feb 19, 2010, 15:40
I guess the question is , "How many election cycles can you promise Reagan and deliver Bush, and not kill the party and breathe life into a replacement"?
 
1141Tree
      ID: 23143812
      Fri, Feb 19, 2010, 16:00
I guess the question is , "How many election cycles can you promise Reagan and deliver Bush, and not kill the party and breathe life into a replacement"? I

well, they could promise Reagan and deliver Quayle...or maybe even Quayle Lite.

‘Family Guy’ Voice Actor Says Palin ‘Does Not Have a Sense of Humor’

Since it was shown on Sunday, an episode of the Fox animated comedy “Family Guy” has drawn the repeated condemnation of Sarah Palin...

In the episode, the teenage character Chris dates a girl named Ellen, who has Down syndrome, and who tells him over dinner that her mother is “the former governor of Alaska.”

Ms. Palin, whose son Trig also has Down syndrome, has said that the “Family Guy” show “really isn’t funny” and was the work of “cruel, cold-hearted people.” Ms. Palin’s daughter Bristol has written that the “Family Guy” writers were “mocking my brother and my family,” and called them “heartless jerks.”

One person who supports the “Family Guy” staff is Andrea Fay Friedman, the 39-year-old actor and public speaker who played Ellen in that episode. Like the character, Ms. Friedman also has Down syndrome.

I guess former Governor Palin does not have a sense of humor. I thought the line “I am the daughter of the former governor of Alaska” was very funny. I think the word is “sarcasm.”

In my family we think laughing is good. My parents raised me to have a sense of humor and to live a normal life.
 
1142Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Feb 19, 2010, 18:04
1139: the test comes when we see whether the greater Tea Party possesses the integrity to deny Mitt Romney and other moderates entrance into the tent.
 
1143Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Sat, Feb 20, 2010, 01:38
If a joke is going to be tasteless, it should at least be funny. That joke was not. Down's syndrome is not hereditary.
 
1144Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Feb 20, 2010, 13:03
actually, if we're talking about Sarah Palin, it's damned funny.
 
1145Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Sat, Feb 20, 2010, 13:14
Maddow at CPAC

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

 
1146Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Feb 20, 2010, 18:39
Call me pleasantly surprised:



Daily Kos:
Another example of how times change: Glenn Beck is concluding keynoter for CPAC. Though Beck today is the leading teabagger on the teabagger's leading network, in 2007 he expressed concern that some Ron Paul supporters were fomenting domestic terrorism. And now he's keynoting a conference that just tapped Paul as their top pick for 2012.

It's enough to raise the question: are Fox and the GOP taking over the tea party movement? Or is the teabagging on them? Odds are, Mitt Romney, who won the CPAC straw poll for the past three years running, will find out the answer to that question soon enough.
 
1147Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Feb 20, 2010, 19:03
Right-wing Joe Stack fan pages are apparently popping up on Facebook.
 
1148Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sat, Feb 20, 2010, 20:08
From #1147:

It's just too bad people are deciding to focus on the fact that he tried to kill his wife and daughter, and not the means of why he did this."

 
1149Boldwin
      ID: 2155174
      Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 20:37
Ron Paul is definately gaining a lotta fans and as politicians go, perhaps people trust him to be a straight-shooter more than anyone else out there. Sort of a Ross Perot who isn't giving up.

He could easily be the reason Obama gets a second term by splitting the opposition vote.

What is Mitt Romeny doing on the radar screen? All slickness and no beef. I cannot imagine what the base of his support looks like. Money I guess.
 
1150Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 21:14
What is Mitt Romeny doing on the radar screen? All slickness and no beef. I cannot imagine what the base of his support looks like.

Romney is enormously qualified to be president, so much more than Sarah Palin that it's a joke. The president is, first and foremost, an administrator, and Romney has shown incredible administrative skills in numerous positions. His base, obviously broader than Palin or Pawlenty according to the CPAC poll, understands that folsky sound bites are no replacement for broad experience in a variety of national and international situations. It's sad he's bought into the negativity that appears to be required to be taken seriously as a Republican candidate.
 
1151Boldwin
      ID: 2155174
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 07:05
But who would vote for him? Not you.
 
1152Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 07:17
What is Mitt Romeny doing on the radar screen? All slickness and no beef.

the same could easily be said about Sarah Palin and Rick Perry.

He could easily be the reason Obama gets a second term by splitting the opposition vote.

which falls lock and step in with the belief that the Teabaggers are very partisan.

none of your responses really address 1146 though.
 
1153Boldwin
      ID: 2155174
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 07:24
Have I mentioned that I am convinced Zell Miller would make your strongest candidate in 2012?
 
1154Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 08:14
But who would vote for him? Not you.

Why in the world would you say that? I'm already on record in 2008, on these boards, as expressing Romney as my #1 choice for president.

Who makes better sense during an economic crisis than someone who has a brilliant track record in economics in both the public and private sector? Your claim of all slickness and no beef is a good example of lazy politics. That characterization means absolutely nothing.
 
1157Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 08:53
What is Mitt Romeny doing on the radar screen? All slickness and no beef.

The GOP nominated GWB in 2000 on the campaign slogan, compassionate conservatism. After practically deserting and starving a war effort in Afghanistan against the enemies that attacked us on 9/11 in favor of a different war which turned out to be based on false intelligence, after declaring that he didn't care about finding OBL and after, on the domestic side, massively increasing entitlements, no serious challenge from within the party was even considered in 2004.

In 2008 they nominated John McCain, who shared an embarrassingly high number of the very same negatives they had used just four years before to make the case to independants that John Kerry was unfit to be president.

The same year they latched on to a woman who repeatedly exposed herself as political knownothing who was all style and little substance and fawned over her standard-issue GOP boilerplat talking points as if they were a holy revelation wrapped in a skirt.

They made a hero out of a plumber named Joe who stepped into the spotlight to claim that Obama's proposed tax increase would prevent him from buying a business which earns hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. When it turned out that the guy wasn't a licensed plumber, had no means to buy the business he claimed and in fact wasn't even really named Joe, it didn't matter. Pajamas Media hired him as a journalist and sent him to Israel, where he failed to realize that he was supposed to try to make the Palestinians look bad, not the Israeli media.

In 2009-10 the party's right wing made a rock star out of Northeastern moderate Republican, former nude model and Mitt Romney clone who just might go down as the first Republican to publicly sign on to the Dem's jobs bill.

Today, Sarahcuda publicly supports McCain's reelection, was part and parcel to the rise of Scott Brown (who will probably be wearing the RINO tag by 2012) and is on the record for supporting the tea party's merge into the greater GOP.

And you have to ask why Romney is on the radar screen? Your perception of the political right in this country is terribly distorted.

You think this woman who is paid enormous sums on the speech circuit and agreed to have FOX News install a full service transmission equipped TV studio in her house so that she can earn a huge salary from that company from home won't be supporting Mitt Romney if he is the 2012 GOP nominee? You think she hasn't already been bought? And that she doesn't see how her fortune even further multiplies if she can find a way to remain the darling of both the tea partiers and the GOP?

Face it, these days, integrity is not the party's strong point.

Zell Miller. Good idea, base your choice for presidential nominee on a single speech he made 6 years ago? I imagine you don't recall the gist of that speech, which was blatantly pro-neocon, only that it was filled with rage befitting the meme that liberal Americans are the enemy of the state. But if Zell is in fact a man of integrity and really meant what he said that night at the GOP convention in 2004, then he is no happier with the political right these days than he was with the Dems of 6 years ago. Because the tides have turned considerably since he said,
Where is the bipartisanship in this country when we need it most?

Now, while young Americans are dying in the sands of Iraq and the mountains of Afghanistan, our nation is being torn apart and made weaker because of the Democrat's manic obsession to bring down our Commander in Chief.
If Zell is in fact a man of integrity, he'd spit on a GOP nomination today.
 
1158Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 10:33
This country is in dire need of a leader with the ability to bring as many sides together as possible. No matter how moderate Obama governs, he will continue to be characterized as a Muslim-loving Marxist interloper by the tea bag crowd. Obama is further hampered by the Pelosi/Reid leadership which is hard left and ineffectual.

What we really need is someone like Eisenhower, a non-polarizing leader who can smack down the McCarthys and garner respect from both sides of the aisle. Nobody hated Eisenhower.

While Romney is not the national hero Eisenhower was, he has shown that he is pragmatic when it comes to bipartisan relationships, as seen with his dealings with the liberal Massachusetts state government as well as Salt Lake City's liberal mayor Rocky Anderson during the 2002 Olympics.

While the Baldwin wing of conservatives see any attempt to work with Democrats and liberals as an abandonment of principles, most Americans would welcome a new era of cooperation in our political system.

It's unfortunate that in order to be acceptable as a Republican candidate today, it's necessary to placate the most polarizing elements, led by entertainers and opinionists like Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck and now Palin, who appears to have abandoned her political aspirations for the much more lucrative entertainment industry where she won't be held accountable for her lack of actual policy positions.

As appealing as Ron Paul is in many ways, he just doesn't have the goods to rally enough support for a serious presidential bid. I read way too many comments about how he wants to 'gut the military' by Palinista types to think he really has a chance to sway that contingency. That same contingency wants to brand Romney as a RINO, which is only going to help pave the way for another 4 years of Obama.
 
1159boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 11:15
which is only going to help pave the way for another 4 years of Obama.

I thought that was given, 2012 is still a ways off but i can not see the GOP finding and supporting a candidate that gets any kind of wide spread support. I guess he could not run again or dems could would reject him, but both those ideas seem highly unlikely.
 
1160Tree
      ID: 23143812
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 11:39
Daughter says pilot in Texas IRS crash was a hero

ugh.
 
1161Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 11:50
#1160

I've seen a few posts on Townhall that are sympathetic to this guy, but generally the comments have been sane-based.

I'm of the opinion that comments about this incident don't belong in a direction of the GOP thread, as it falls into the same category as claiming Obama is a Muslim-sympathizing Marxist.
 
1162Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 13:04
GOP Overreach Department: "Obama is Killing too Many Terrorists!"
 
1163Boldwin
      ID: 111562213
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 15:47
Remember when I pointed out very early on that the underwear bomber was mirandized and you sneered at that, PD?

Well it has since been verified. Your guy is a clown when it comes to gathering intel. Is killing them all instead of accepting surrenders, your idea of humanitarian?
 
1164Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 16:10
Actually, I had no idea if he was read his rights, but sneered at the urban legend that the guy stopped talking the moment he was mirandized.

I believe I also sneered at the belief that the best way to fight terror is to ditch our own laws.

Virtually everything said by the Right over that case in the early going has proven to be wrong. Sometimes terribly so. It is because the Right believed that the bomber was a political opportunity (i.e., the bomber could be used to attach Obama) rather than a national problem.

Susan Collins gets schooled
 
1165Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 18:10
#1160: Daughter retracts "hero" comment

Good for her. Hard to say what she was thinking, but her dad just kill himself and she found herself thrust into the spotlight. I'd give her a pass on this one.
 
1166Building 7
      ID: 43735169
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 18:28
I don't think that IRS crash would have happened under the flat tax. I have a feeling that sentence is going to end up in italics.
 
1167Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 18:31
I don't think that IRS crash would have happened under the flat tax.

Maybe not, but then he would have just found some other outlet for his perceived martyrdom.
 
1168Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 18:50
Steve King: "Implode the IRS!"

Sigh.
 
1169Boldwin
      ID: 111562213
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 20:32
AC on Mitt Romney [before the last election]
 
1170Razor
      ID: 571022618
      Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 21:00
I don't think that IRS crash would have happened under the flat tax. I have a feeling that sentence is going to end up in italics.

We should let that terrorist dictate our tax policy as much as we let Bin Laden dictate our foreign policy.
 
1171Boldwin
      ID: 111562213
      Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 10:50
Granted Joe Stack never had more than one vote before and one less today, and OBL never deserved one...

But the one opinion that doesn't seem to get a fair hearing is the one from the majority of USA voters on whether they are getting the proper level of taxing and spending from the government.

I don't think you can or should blow that off so flippantly.
 
1172Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 10:53
That's never going to happen from the Right as long as Obama is in office. The fact that Obama has dropped income taxes for the vast majority of Americans already is never going to be part of their discussion, because it paints Obama in a light which is not bad.

The Right is and will continue to be completely unserious about fair hearings so long as their goal is strictly to harm this Administration politically.
 
1173Boldwin
      ID: 111562213
      Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 22:21
It's Illinois all over again. The state is drowning in debt and outrageous drunken sailor overspending with no sign of responsibility in sight, prolly in the top eight states most fiscally troubled. The state legislature [among other taxing bodies] is creating so many backdoor taxes and stealth taxes and creative fees they resemble a three ring circus trying to hide all the 'revenue enhancement'.

But every lawmaker swears they haven't raised taxes and they took the pledge not to on a stack of Bibles. It just depends on whether you are willing to let them get off on a fatuous technicality as to whether you believe them.
 
1174Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 07:35
Poll: Americans place blame for partisanship

Two-thirds of Americans think that the Republicans in Congress are not doing enough to cooperate with President Obama, according to a new national poll.

But a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey, released Wednesday, also indicates the public believes the Democrats should be the ones to take the first step toward bipartisan cooperation and they want the Democrats to give up more than the GOP to reach a consensus.

Sixty-seven percent of respondents say the GOP is not doing enough to cooperate with the White House, up 6 points from last April.


the thing about this poll is that i'm willing to bet most of those who lean left on this message board will agree with these ascertations, that the Republicans are the obscructions, but the Dems aren't doing enough to reach out.

meanwhile, those who lean right here will find a way to blame "liberals" and "marxists" and "socialists" and "communists" and "insert buzz word of fear here" for the obstructions.
 
1175Frick
      ID: 14119248
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 09:19
So the right are obstructionists, but the left aren't doing enough to reach out.

Isn't that the same thing, just with different language to spin the message one way?

Is the meaning any different if you say the left are obstructionists, but the right are willing to concede enough?

Exact same point, but slanted the other way.

Both sides aren't working and are basically acting like little kids who just want to take their ball and go home when they don't get their way. I blame both sides equally.
 
1176biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 10:02
I don't.

The center right (dems) have made numerous concessions and asked repeatedly for input. They get nothing in return. The radical right just thumbs their nose.

The true left knows the only sensible thing is single-payer. Trying to shoe-horn this into a competitive market is just bending over to corporate interests. We don't hear from the left at all in this debate.
 
1177Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 10:35
I agree with bili to some degree. The Right isn't "working" at all, except to block the Dems at every single opportunity on virtually every single issue.
 
1178boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 11:26
re 1175: Frick you can not be obstructionist if you are in majority. And if you are in the minority you can reach out because you have nothing to offer. If the majority wants to reject their ideas they can if they want to except their ideas they can but in the end the power is in majority's hands.
 
1179Tree
      ID: 23143812
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 11:44
So the right are obstructionists, but the left aren't doing enough to reach out.

Isn't that the same thing, just with different language to spin the message one way?


not at all.

The left is trying to climb a mountain. They're reaching out behind them to pull up some on the Right, but they're not stretching out as far as they could to reach them.

Some on the right are trying to yank the left down the mountain.

that's the difference. One group is trying to move forward, but could do a better job of embracing the others.

some of the others have no desire to embrace, whatsoever.
 
1180Tree
      ID: 23143812
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 16:06
Despite backlash, some on right praise Brown's independence

 
1181Boldwin
      ID: 111562213
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 16:07
*trying to visualize hugging Rahm Emanuel*
 
1182boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 16:52
was this a different vote, it says 11 republicans voted for the bill not 5.
 
1183Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 02, 2010, 01:58
Jim Bunning single-handedly holding up unemployment benefits, COBRA payments, and forces 21% cut to Medicare doctors

But hey, Boldwin would be proud: His actions have caused the government to furlough 2000 federal transportation workers, and delayed payments to states for transportation projects.
 
1184Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Mar 02, 2010, 07:25
yesterday marked my return to insurance after 3 months without. it was a scary three months.

i had COBRA through the end of November, but because of Congress not extending it, i lost COBRA December 1.

Then, a few weeks later, they voted to extend it. unfortunately, at that point, the money budgeted for COBRA had gone elsewhere, and while on unemployment, there was no way i could go back on it.

shame on Bunning, and shame on those preventing our government from working as it should. and to hell with those who cheer them on. it's disgusting.
 
1185Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 04, 2010, 16:39
CA State Senator opposed to gay marriage arrested for DUI after leaving a gay nightclub.

Can't blame the guy. I'd probably have to be wasted to go into one of those places too...
 
1186Boldwin
      ID: 421172615
      Thu, Mar 04, 2010, 16:43
I won't ask if he won't tell, and thanks for the votes buddy.
 
1187biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Thu, Mar 04, 2010, 18:04
Research. Pure research.

I will ask, however. Was it the booze or the fella picked up that was making you swerve?
 
1188Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 04, 2010, 21:46
The Made-Up-Obama-Scandal-of-the-Day

Breathless and shameless. They are hooked on the political crack.
 
1189Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Mar 04, 2010, 22:35
Scott Matheson is so qualified for this position that even Orrin Hatch and Jason Chaffetz are calling BS.

Hatch said he knew Scott Matheson was going to be the nominee more than a month ago and disputes any idea that Obama was trying to get a vote for the nomination.

"I can assure you [of] that," Hatch said. "I don't think Jim would change because of it anyway."

Rep. Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, questioned the timing of the nomination, coming as the White House makes an earnest press for action on health care, but Chaffetz says he still finds it hard to believe Obama was trying to buy Matheson's vote.

"It should be crystal clear that Scott Matheson is imminently qualified, and I applaud the president for appointing him," Chaffetz said. "The timing, I can see why it raises eyebrows. [But] I find it hard to believe. I see no evidence" of vote buying.


Yeah, Chaffetz, a lot more qualified than you were to kick field goals for BYU.

 
1190DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Mar 04, 2010, 22:54
[anal retentive grammar police on] Do the writers of the Salt Lake Tribune really not know the difference between imminently and eminently? [anal retentive grammar police off]

Honestly, that really bothers me to the point where it's distracting me from the rest of the article.
 
1191Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 07:40
I won't ask if he won't tell, and thanks for the votes buddy.

typical of the hypocrisy from the Right. apparently, principle's don't matter any longer, nor does holding someone up to your own personal moral code; rather, how they vote is all the Right cares about.
 
1192Boldwin
      ID: 421172615
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 08:31
How much time did libs around here spend trying to tell republicans to compromise their principles and elect Dem-lite republicans?

So it would be unhypocritical to support Joe Rino who supports gay marriage but somehow untrue to principles to happily accept defense of a moral culture from closeted politicians.

Ridiculous. They're all liars. It's just pragmatic and wise to support those liars and whores who vote your principles.

[unless you have disengaged from the system entirely and support he who never lies]
 
1193Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 08:42
Who was telling Republicans to vote for anyone?
 
1194Boldwin
      ID: 421172615
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 08:45
C'mon MITH. You were one of the leaders of the pack lecturing republicans about the political necessity of throwing conservatives under the bus and field an all RINO slate for all elections in the future.
 
1195biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 08:48
I would prefer not-completely-crazy people willing actually govern be elected to congress, if that's what you mean.
 
1196Boldwin
      ID: 421172615
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 08:48
Hey while we are discussing hypocrisy, I am sure PD, famous champion of PAYGO as a Dem solution, was a big defender of Bunning recently when he made a principled stand for PAYGO?
 
1197biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 08:58
Except it was Bunning's party that crashed our economy by refusing to regulate effectively, and then strangled our revenue streams by giving the rich all our money in the first place, starting a war we couldn't afford and giving a massive gift to drug companies.

If you start the inferno, you can't then complain about the cost of fire engines.
 
1198Boldwin
      ID: 421172615
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 09:10
PAYGO is all about not proposing spending without specifying how it will be paid for.

"Bush did it" is not PAYGO. My condolences if your one trick pony act doesn't cut it.
 
1199Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 09:11
You were one of the leaders of the pack..

Not sure where I told anyone who to vote for. You'll have to cite an example. I do enjoy the sport of pressing people when they support candidates or policies that are in direct contradiction of their stated principles. But that's not telling people who to vot for.

political necessity of throwing conservatives under the bus...

By my definition, 'conservative' does not mean the same thing as 'committed partisan'.
 
1200Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 09:23
Re PAYGO, the temporary extension of unemployment benefits fits right in line with the other welfare programs that were specifically exempted from PAYGO.

I'd be more sympathetic of Bunning if he waited until a legitimately egregious breach of the policy was made and he hadn't voted against PAYGO back in January when it was on the Senate floor.
 
1201walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 10:09
NYT, Krugman, Bunning's Universe

Less about Bunning and more about the divergence between repubs and dems, and our dysfunctional gov't. Which universe are you in?
 
1202Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 10:10
Jim Matheson is my congressman, so I have a vested interest in charges of bribery, which now appears to be another word that is being distorted beyond recognition, as evidenced by Michele Malkin's column - The Obama Way: Bluster, Bully, Bribe

The perception of a judgeship-for-Obamacare-vote deal is, of course, horribly unfair to Matheson, who seems more than qualified for the position. But full blame for creating that unmistakable perception lies squarely at the feet of the rank opportunists in the White House, whose timing is worse than a broken metronome.

This debacle comes on the heels of damning disclosures about other possible White House bribery.


Other possible White House bribery? In political terms, bribery is a felony. It means you received money or other remunerations in return for something. Even if Obama hopes Jim Matheson softens his stance on health care legislation by appointing his brother to a federal judgeship, it does not constitute a bribe. At worst it could be called an ethically-challenged politcal favor, something that is done in politics every day on some level by politicians of all stripes.

But other than a supposed 'timing issue', there's not one iota of evidence to support the claim that Obama and Jim Matheson colluded to trade this appointment for a vote. Had Obama appointed Scott Matheson at any time during the past 6 months, the yellow journalists like Malkin would have made the same accusations.

Scott Matheson is emminently(kudos D Wetz) qualified for this post. He has been the frontrunner since McConnell stepped down. Yes, Obama wants his brother in his corner on health care
reform.

However, if you're going to accuse persons of a felony, it helps to have some type of evidence. The standards of which blogging have become acceptable as journalism is repugnant, and now my congressman, little known outside Utah, is branded as a bribe taker, and that will likely be his legacy in national terms.
 
1203Boldwin
      ID: 421172615
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 11:02
political donors are legally entitled to support candidates that hold positions with which the donors agree, or which will benefit the donors. Such conduct becomes bribery only when there is an identifiable exchange between the contribution and official acts, previous or subsequent, and the term quid pro quo denotes such an exchange. - Wiki

If you are technically still on the edge of the chasm, and I am not saying you are succeeding at that, you are dancing way too close. You don't need much cynicism to assume there is a direct connection.
 
1204Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 11:08
Wikipedia defines 'judicial appointment' as a political donation?
 
1205walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 11:51
I gotta say, while I don't see it as bribery per se, I do see that brotherly thing as very dicey from an ethical view. If it is as described, then it appears to be a conflict of interest, and things that even have the perception of such conflicts, should be avoided.
 
1206Boldwin
      ID: 421172615
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 12:26
MITH

It sure serves as an awesome quid pro quo.
 
1207Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 13:06
When true, sure. When not--not so much.

This is clearly the latter.
 
1208Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 13:35
and in the no-surprise department...

Leaked documents reveal GOP plan to use scare tactics to raise money

National GOP leaders are doing damage control today after a Politico scoop lifted the curtain on the party's plan to tap voters' "fear" in the coming campaign season. The PR problem started when an absent-minded attendee at the Republican National Committee (RNC) confab on February 18 in Boca Grande, Florida, left a 72-page document from its 2010 strategizing session in a hotel room. Today, Politico reporter Ben Smith's expose is making headlines.

The memo tracks the fundraising presentation that RNC Finance Director Rob Bickhart delivered to the RNC's $2,500-a-head annual retreat. The best path to victory in 2010, the document advises, is for Republican candidates to depict themselves as the best hope for resisting the "trending toward socialism" taking shape in a Democrat-dominated Washington.
 
1209Boldwin
      ID: 421172615
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 13:38
The best path to victory in 2010, the document advises, is for Republican candidates to depict themselves as the best hope for resisting the "trending toward socialism" taking shape in a Democrat-dominated Washington.

Honesty is always the best policy, so yeah, why not?
 
1210DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 13:56
Hey, if the choices are socialism or serfdom, I'll vote socialism every time.
 
1211Boldwin
      ID: 421172615
      Fri, Mar 05, 2010, 14:30
I have no idea what you mean by the first part, but the second half went without saying.
 
1212Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Mar 08, 2010, 09:52

DeLay: People are unemployed because they want to be

"There is an argument to be made that these extensions, the unemployment benefits, keep people from going and finding jobs," (Tom DeLay) told CNN's Candy Crowley Sunday.

"In fact there are some studies that have been done that show people stay on unemployment compensation and they don't look for a job until two or three weeks before they know the benefits are going to run out," he argued.

"People are unemployed because they want to be? " asked Crowley.

"Well, it is the truth. And people in the real world know it," said DeLay.


i wonder if Tom DeLay eats the horse$hit he spews. his breath must stink.
 
1213Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, Mar 08, 2010, 10:15
Dick Morris, celebrating what he calls a crashing economy with a Newsmax Carribean cruise later this month, further embarrasses himself with flat-out lies concerning the Matheson brothers.

To some, he[Obama] offers bribes. Rep. Jim Matheson, endangered species -- a Utah Democrat -- succeeded in getting his brother Scott appointed to a federal judgeship. Matheson voted against Obamacare when it first passed the House. With his new-found winnings in his pocket, he now professes to be undecided..

I posted an op-ed by Jim Matheson many months ago. He stated that he was in favor of health care reform, but felt the current legislation was financially irresponsible and overly complicated. He expressed that he would remain open-minded to any alternative legislation if it met certain criteria. To claim he now professes to be undecided, is a complete distortion. To claim Jim Matheson succeeded in getting his brother Scott appointed to a federal judgeship, implies that he waged a campaign with the White House to have his brother appointed to the position. There is no evidence that Congessman Matheson ever spoke to the White House about this appointment.

Dick Morris makes claims he can't support, but it doesn't seem to matter in the dishonest world of today's conservative movement, proving once again there's little that actually conservative about it.
 
1214Boldwin
      ID: 53228720
      Mon, Mar 08, 2010, 16:04
The Chicago mafia works that way. Silver or lead.

If the silver doesn't work there's always the lead.
 
1215Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Mar 08, 2010, 17:07
More guilt by association, since they can't find anything on Obama directly to back up their wild-eyed accusations.
 
1216Boldwin
      ID: 53228720
      Mon, Mar 08, 2010, 17:32
I think Obama is accountable for how his chief of staff operates.

Surely at least that buck stops at Obama's desk.
 
1217Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Mar 08, 2010, 18:07
Yeah, pushing for votes is an awful, awful thing. Particularly when he is pressuring members of his own party. Jeez.

What kinds of planet is this stuff coming from?
 
1218Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Mar 08, 2010, 19:58
For the memory-challenged
 
1219Boldwin
      ID: 53228720
      Mon, Mar 08, 2010, 22:53
We've got to start bribing people to underspend.
 
1220Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 09, 2010, 00:41
Because we don't want to spend money to save lives.

Meanwhile, Glenn Beck urges his listeners to leave their church if they engage in social justice work.
 
1221Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Tue, Mar 09, 2010, 09:22
Aside from being stupid, it's pretty heretical. I guess we'll find out who Beck-followers worship more: Beck or God.
 
1222biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Mar 09, 2010, 14:15
They worship fear.
 
1223Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 09, 2010, 14:17
Nah. They use fear to bring on their feeling of superiority. And that's what they worship.
 
1224Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Wed, Mar 10, 2010, 08:15
Why do they say these things?



as the right wonders aloud why the GOP is unable to recruit socially conservative black voters...
 
1225Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Mar 10, 2010, 09:44
Why do they say these things?

they're bigots?
 
1226Boldwin
      ID: 53228720
      Wed, Mar 10, 2010, 16:54
Oh the horror, lol!
 
1227Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Wed, Mar 10, 2010, 17:28
I did not think B would lol! at Rush's mock-potrayal of Governor Paterson as a subserviant slave.
 
1228Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 11, 2010, 19:55
Jon Stewart on Beck's disappointment in Massa:

The Daily Show With Jon StewartMon - Thurs 11p / 10c
Sour Gropes
www.thedailyshow.com
Daily Show
Full Episodes
Political HumorHealth Care Reform
 
1229Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 19, 2010, 17:52
Looks like a huge percentage of the money taken in by Sean Hannity's Freedom Concerts is going to---the Hannity's.

Where's the outrage on the right for such "Chicago-style" accounting?
 
1230Boldwin
      ID: 292351810
      Fri, Mar 19, 2010, 19:19
Moreover, despite written assurances to donors that all money raised would go directly to scholarships for kids of the fallen heroes and not to expenses

Can you prove that?
 
1231biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Fri, Mar 19, 2010, 19:28
What? The promise, or the shenanigans?
 
1232Boldwin
      ID: 292351810
      Fri, Mar 19, 2010, 19:58
Written assurances that all money.
 
1233Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 19, 2010, 21:00
Ah, so because they couldn't possible give away 100% (because of expenses), then 7% is fine?
 
1234Boldwin
      ID: 292351810
      Fri, Mar 19, 2010, 21:28
Could you just back up what you say?
 
1235Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 19, 2010, 23:19
What I said? Did you click the link? How about this one? In the interest of fairness, here is a pdf of Freedom Alliance's defensive letter of yesterday.

Anyone who is accused of the kind of stuff they are and who responds with an outraged letter addressing allegations which weren't made and not addressing the ones that are made probably doesn't have much of a defense.
 
1236Boldwin
      ID: 292351810
      Fri, Mar 19, 2010, 23:50
I'll have to side with Ollie on this one. Guilt measured on the scale of whatever was promised, of which I haven't run across the specifics.
 
1237Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 19, 2010, 23:52
Jeez, what a surprise. Not only do you take his side, but you take his techniques as well.

Any charity which promises to give money to soldiers and gives 7% of its income to them is a scam.

They paid more in postage than they did for scholarships.
 
1238Boldwin
      ID: 292351810
      Sun, Mar 21, 2010, 20:48
Ollie's side.
 
1239Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 00:19
That would be "private planes" and "few actual benefits paid to your targeted beneficiaries," then. I figured. Meanwhile, Congressional GOP approval down to 25%.. It'll probably drop down a little more after today's Waterloo.
 
1240Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 01:18
Ollie's side.

dishonesty's side.
 
1241Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 08:32
Ollie North being the public figure who allegedly pulled Sean aside and told him 'This has to stop'.

The tour doesn't have to stop, the message doesn't have to stop, but any misrepresentation has to end.
 
1242Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 09:26
Where did you read about Ollie's side?

 
1243Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 09:30
Because Freedom Alliance's public denial of all the accusations is signed by Oliver North.

Either North is a special kind of scumbag or Schlussel is relying on some really terrible sources.
 
1244Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 09:45
From the Schlussel link that you guys didn't read with comprehension:
The source says he heard that Oliver North pulled Hannity aside at one of the concerts and told him that this had to stop.
 
1245Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 09:47
Ah, I just remembered who Debbie Schlussel is; originator of the now fully debunked rumor that Barack Obama attended an Islamist madrassa as a child.

It's unfamiliar territory to lean in favor of Ollie North and Sean Hannity over anyone, but so long as all I'm looking at are unsupported allegations and denials, I'd bet on their honesty over Schlussel's journalistic integrity.
 
1246Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 09:49
B 1244

I did read that sentence. It doesn't reconcile very well with North signing a full denial of Schlussel's accusations, does it?

That's something you'd have understood before posting if you'd bothered to read with any comprehension.
 
1247Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 09:52
Life is full of gray areas don't you know?
 
1248sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 09:59
Life is full of gray areas don't you know?

Except of course, as it pertains to your portrayal of Obama as Marxist. Right?
 
1249Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 10:15
gray areas don't you know

What's the potential gray area between the two possibilities I laid out? That North, Hannity and Schlussel are all scum? I guess Schlussel could be dead on about the accusations while the story about North pulling aside Hannity in private was a lie.

One thing we do know for sure is that they certainly can't all be telling the truth.
 
1250Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 10:53
The accusations against Hannity do not surprise me at all - check out this movie, Divided State, about Utah Valley State students inviting Michael Moore to come speak. It creates a huge uproar which Sean Hannity exploits, offering to come speak to the students for "free". His idea of free and mine is quite different. In short, his "expenses" end up being more, much more than Michael Moore's appearance fee and expenses. I tend to believe the accusations by Schlussel and Oliver North behind the scenes. Of course North is going to publicly deny, he was the chair, he is going to deny this theft occurred on his watch.
 
1251Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 10:53
Where Hannity lies on that gray line depends on what percentage he promised soldier's and their heirs.

A fact no one here has provided. For all I know he is as innocent and white as the driven snow.
 
1252Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 10:57
It isn't about Hannity personally. The response has always been exactly that: Hannity is perfect. Hannity hasn't lied. Hannity hasn't done anything these terrible jealous, un-American Americans accuse him of.

The charges are that Hannity's family and friends financially benefit from running a "charity" with an extremely low pass-through rate. And the defensive and shrill off-the-point responses from Hannity's personal defenders don't help. You know something is probably wrong when they insist on answering charges that aren't made.
 
1253Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 11:05
For all you know he didn't promise any more charity than Ben and Jerry. Until you come up with specifics you don't have squat.
 
1254Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 11:09
I guess the first link in #1235 isn't clear enough?

Again, you seem fixated on the fact that an assertion not being made isn't being answered by the people not making the charge.
 
1255Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 11:13
Exactly. It isn't clear enuff. Show me the exact promise he broke.
 
1256Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 11:14
Or conversely explain why you aren't doing backflips over Ben and Jerry daring to make a dime's profit.
 
1257Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 11:16
Meanwhile, bricks shatter offices of Democratic pols in NY. And Tea Partiers, in the hopes of making their own change, were calling "faggot" and "nigger" to some lawmakers in Washington.

Nice.
 
1258Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 11:20
Or conversely explain why you aren't doing backflips over Ben and Jerry daring to make a dime's profit.

typical subterfuge tactics on your part.

you got nothing, so you change the subject. you haven't had a pot to piss in with nearly all of your arguments for more than a year now.
 
1259Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 12:57
Tree, you aren't capable of understanding legitimate analogy and drawing any lesson from it so why even pretend you qualify as a referee?
 
1260Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 15:26
Tree, you aren't capable of understanding legitimate analogy

present a legitimate analogy, and then we'll talk.

comparing a for-profit company like Ben & Jerry's that donates some of its profits to charity with a a 501(c)3 charitable foundation is like the Freedom Alliance is comparing apples to oranges.

when you want to compare apples to apples, feel free to try again, only try to do so without the personal attack.
 
1261Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 17:28
How many dozen posts are we past still without anyone providing a basis to compare Hannity's promises and his delivery?
 
1262DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 18:04
Looks like a little less than three. Great news, your record is nowhere near danger yet.
 
1263Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 18:33
What percentage of the money you give to the Jehovah's Witnesses do you want to actually go to the organization? Are you cool with 7%? Does it matter what the guy holding the offering plate promises? Really?

Just how much money would people donate at these rallies if he said "All of 7% of your money will go to these kids!"? I doubt a percentage is ever mentioned, it's implied that most of it will go to the intended beneficiary. At 7%, Hannity is a thief.
 
1264biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 18:41
No wonder conservatives are so hip to charity being the major solution to all our woes! Well...

...all their woes, maybe. ;)
 
1265Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 19:34
How many dozen posts are we past still without anyone providing a basis to compare Hannity's promises and his delivery?

yea, i figured that analogy thing would change your direction.
 
1266Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 19:50
Still no link to the promise.
 
1267DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 20:10
I hear a siren in the distance. I believe it's a waaaaaaahmbulance.
 
1268Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 20:55
"All net proceeds from ticket sales (after musical talent, production, promotion and venue expenses) are donated to the Scholarship Fund, aiding greatly in this effort to assist hundreds of families who have lost their loved ones while they were protecting and defending our nation and our freedoms. "

A surprising source
 
1269Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 21:45
but PD, how much do the Grateful Dead give to charity?
 
1270Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 22:59
OK, so what profit margin do concert promoters generally work on? That would seem to be a good guideline for what would be appropriate.
 
1271sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 23:31
No Boldwin. What would be appropriate, is the national guidelines for what constitutes a properly run charity. No more than 25% of revenue, going toward expenses and the remaining MINIMUM of 75% being distributed. THAT, is the only yardstick that is relevant.
 
1272Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Mar 22, 2010, 23:46
OK, so what profit margin do concert promoters generally work on?

is it really that hard for you to understand the difference between a for-profit business, and a non-profit charitable foundation?

this isn't rocket science. it's the ABCs.
 
1273Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 00:28
You can't expect him to give more than normal concert profits. It's a perfectly legitimate reasonable useful analogy that again goes right over your head.
 
1274Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 01:23
You can't expect him to give more than normal concert profits. It's a perfectly legitimate reasonable useful analogy that again goes right over your head.

HE'S NOT RUNNING A FOR-PROFIT BUSINESS. that's the difference, and it a very distinct one. He shouldn't be making any profits.
 
1275sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 07:25
I doubt one could use the "standard profits" yardstick anyway. At a charitable function, many bands/entities donate to one extent or another, their time. Perhaps seeking recompense only for direct expenses, or possibly even none at all. Since we have no way of knowing what the honest "costs" were for staging the event, we have no way f knowing what the "profits" or monies eligible for donation amount to. What we DO know, is that the percentages passed along to the designated charity, are SUBSTANTIALLY below what is considered the requisite minimum for a well run non-profit with legitimate expenses.
 
1276Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 11:41
You can't expect him to give more than normal concert profits

Actually, you can, since all the talent were not only waiving their performance fees, but covering their own expenses.
 
1277Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 12:22
What are his profits after expenses and how much of them did he promise?

What are we up to? Fifty posts without an answer to that?
 
1278Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 12:33
Baldy - you really should have stopped when you took Ollie's side because you are REALLY looking like a situational moralist here. For the final, last time, Hannity didn't "promise" anything in writing or orally, however, it is IMPLIED that he will give the vast majority of the proceeds to the intended beneficiaries.

You decry no-show jobs and graft in your state as "Chicago style" greed and corruption. That is EXACTLY what Hannity is doing here and Ollie North called him out on it behind the scenes.

Now come to your senses and call a spade a spade or you have have lost your moral authority.
 
1279Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 12:59
LOL at Zen's last sentence.

Freedom Alliance's tax forms are freely available on their site.
 
1280Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 14:23
No, you aren't going to nail people on implied.

Hannity may have lost his way, but you'll have to prove it.
 
1281DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 14:25
And when it's proven, you'll change the subject, shift the goalposts, and do ANYTHING you can to avoid uttering the words "I was wrong". We know how it works.
 
1282Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 14:35
John McCain: "Wah! Wah! Don't expect any more cooperation from us!"
 
1283Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 14:46
No, you aren't going to nail people on implied.

LOL.

your entire world is steeped in implications. virtually nothing you say is based on fact. NOTHING. instead, it's based on implications and accusations.

"situational" was the word SZ used, and that describes you to perfection.
 
1284Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 14:50
And some year we might actually discover the actual promise Hannity is allegedly breaking. Did he do it in secret? What kind of promise is that?
 
1285Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 23, 2010, 14:51
This may be a first. Accused of being too black and white and accused of too much nuance all in the same day...lol!
 
1286Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Mar 24, 2010, 23:07
Some good advice which will be thrown back. Too bad.
 
1287Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 06:21
He's gay.
 
1288sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 08:15
ever the apologist/defender of all things, immoral or otherwise, for the Right. eh Boldy?
 
1289Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:01
Heh. That actually got a smile, Baldwin.

Sullivan certain is. I don't know if Russell King is, who he was quoting, but AS is gay and married.
 
1290Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:05
He's someone living in a glass house who has discovered that politics draws candidates with enuff hubris...

...to believe they should be writing the rules other people to live by

And therefore enuff hubris to believe that...

...the rules of ordinary mortals don't necessarily apply to them.

Politicians...they're all bad.

Describes a liberal too if you notice.
 
1291biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:09
How is he living in a glass house?
 
1292Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:09
Sullivan didn't write that post. He was quoting another post without comment.

I'm not at all certain why you believe him to be hypocritical. Particularly since the point of King's list are concrete examples of Republicans being hypocritical.

Meanwhile, John Boehner gets mashed.
 
1293Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:11
How is he living in a glass house?

A gay waving a moralizing finger.

Being a liberal you wouldn't get the irony.
 
1294Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:13
Gay people can't be moral?
 
1295biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:14
I thought so.

I figured I'd give you a chance to let you clarify, as I'm sure your god is keeping score.
 
1296biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:14
That's what he's saying.
 
1297Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:18
Ah, and being internally disordered, as it were, he is unable to point out where your party members are being hypocritical?

What part of "we're all sinners" isn't clear to you Baldwin? If you tell people they can't point out political sins because they have no moral authority as sinners, then you've cut the legs out of everything you stand for as a Christian on earth.
 
1298Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:24
There is a world of difference between willfully unrepentently proudly sinful and merely tempted by sin or rarely lapsing into sin.

It is the gulf between the sheep and the goats.
 
1299Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:38
I'm sure your god is keeping score.

if he is, i am sure someone is in for a nasty surprise. might wanna pack shorts and lots of sun screen.
 
1300Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:53
Once you believe that those who God made gay are unrepentantly being sinful by their nature (i.e., continuing to live) and therefore have no place making political (not moral) insights, you've ceded the field.
 
1301Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 11:53
willfully unrepentently proudly bigoted.
 
1302Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 12:08
willfully unrepentently proudly bigoted., all the while deliberately making the world safe for every immoral thing.

That is the amazing thing about the religious left.
 
1303Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 12:14
deliberately making the world safe for every immoral thing

Thank god your morals aren't my morals.
 
1304DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 12:44
Post 1293 is clearly the most doubly ironic post of all time.

Of course, even though we know Boldwin was attempting to make a deliberately bigoted slur, I rather doubt Sullivan would take it that way.

I'm frankly shocked that it was allowed to stand for more than five minutes, and that we're even bothering to engage the proud bigot in conversation.
 
1305walk
      ID: 342381316
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 12:58
Egan, NYT: Party of the Hissy Fit

LOL. Kinda "right."

 
1306Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 13:49
all the while deliberately making the world safe for every immoral thing...
considering your morals (at least based on your posts here) include a disdain for homosexuals, Muslims, and African-Americans, i'm glad you're not an authority on morals.

the hate you harbor in your heart is astonishing to me. i just don't know how anyone can hate that much. it's sad.
 
1307Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 13:51
And they killed Christ calling him a blasphemer.

You are completely wrong in every word.
 
1308Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 14:20
i'm not the one who laughed at David Patterson being compared to a slave with an offensive term.

i'm not the one who shrugged off telling a Muslim to "Take a camel" as no big deal.

i'm not the one who dismisses someone else's opinion because "he's gay".

that's you, and fellow posters and lurkers alike can draw their own conclusions from those statements.

i've drawn my conclusion, and i'm anxiously awaiting "your people killed Christ, so your opinion doesn't count," rebuttal.

oh, wait. you already went there.
 
1309Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 14:50
The point was an example proving that slander can be 100% wrong.
 
1310Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 15:13
I know this is going to seem weird, but lets try to make this less about each other's morals. Boldwin, if you don't believe you are a member of the GOP then don't be so sensitive when people point out that GOP politicos are, at times, hypocritical with their stated religion.

It isn't about you. Or your religion.
 
1311Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 15:22
There have been 10-20 personal slanders directed against me clogging up every thread today. Direct your moderating accordingly if you really believe these threads aren't about me.
 
1312Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 15:24
Your responses are exactly about you. I'm not asking anyone to correct anyone else's behavior, only their own.
 
1313Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 15:31
Then the Boikins of the world will go on wondering why they can't find anything of susbstance.
 
1314walk
      ID: 342381316
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 06:26
NYT, Krugman: We need two rational parties

He's right. Right now, the republican party is the radical one, and the tent is small, and divide between the two parties is big.

 
1315Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 07:20
There have been 10-20 personal slanders directed against me clogging up every thread today.

Sorry buddy, but if we can't call a bigot a bigot this place is done. Laughing over and publicly agreeing with a muslim student being told she shouldn't be allowed to fly because of her religion is bigotry.

Laughing about the black NYS Governor being mock-characterized as a house slave is bigotry.

Insistance that sexuality is somehow tied to morality is bigotry.

A duck is a duck. That's who you are. If you ant a forum where people don't know the meaning of that word, maybe it's time for you to find someplace where your bigoted posts won't be called out for what they are. Deal with it.

If this has become a place where I can't note that a duck is a duck then maybe it's time for me to go.
 
1316Frick
      ID: 48239247
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 08:49
Why is the two party system a good solution? Don't most other countries have multiple parties that have to form coalitions that compromise a better solution? Seems like the state we are in today is the result of a two party system and radicals with the loudest voices leading both parties.
 
1317walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 12:51
I think it's not that a two party system is a good solution, but since we have two predominant parties, it'd be good if they were a little more cordial to each other. I am biased, but I see the republicans in congress as the more belligerant.
 
1318boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 15:17
I see the republicans in congress as the more belligerant.

they are the more belligerent, that is the side effect of being minority. look at countries that have multiple parties, the smaller parties are usually the more belligerent. Think about it terms of sports if you are the number 1 team in the nation you know you are going to get each teams best shot week after week, so don't act surprised if you get hit by trick play or tempers fly if you begin to run the score up.
 
1319Frick
      ID: 48239247
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 16:29
Quote the entire comment. You left off the "I am biased" That is an important part of walk's post.

Were the Democrats the more beligerent in the past when they were the minority?
 
1320boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 16:55
I was agreeing with him so I figured the biased part was not necessary. I think the democrats were more belligerent when they were the minority but I don't have a reference to a time when they were as small a minority as the Republicans are now.
 
1321Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 18:50
Dems are more belligerent now and they always were ever since the sixties. The Dems took right over from the HUAC in trying to get everyone they disagreed with fired.
 
1322Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 19:23
I think one would be hard pressed to match the tea partiers for belligerence and all around hatred. Seriously--yelling "nigger" at congressmen, telling a guy with Parkinsons to stop asking for "handouts,"et al et al.

They are intentionally confrontational in a mean spirited destructive way.

To call Democrats more belligerent now is simply trying to re-write history while we all are watching it happen otherwise.
 
1323Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 19:43
It is really sad that liberals sling the term racism around without any basis in fact. And the reason is liberals do not recognize any evil other than recognizing evil.

Tolerating every evil is the new good and recognizing evil is the new bad.

Liberals of course must see themselves as morally superior and have ruled that everything goes and that the only evil is judgementalism it must follow in their minds that everyone who disagrees with them must engage in those surpassingly rare things they still see as evil.

Ergo everyone who disagrees with them must be motivated by racism and hatred.

Everywhere in the world you go you will find JW's breaking the hate barrier. Jews and Palestinians in the same congregation. Turks and Armenians in the same congregation. Blacks and whites in the same congregation in South Africa for nearly a century. Irish and English in Northern Ireland. All different tribes in Africa [traditional enemies] associating together at assemblies without distinction. Blacks and whites for a hundred years in the American South in the same congregation, not 'segregated sister churches' like christendom if they consider themselves integrated at all.

And before you go there, a fair number of ex-gays in those congregations too.

I had a Puerto Rican and a muslim from Serbia as college roommates. I have orientals and mexicans and blacks in my congregation in Peru.

But just so bili can feel superior, I must be racist. Find a real reason to feel morally superior to me if you must. Your world will NEVER be as free of racial and national discrimination as mine. NEVER because ours doesn't have to be policed. It's real and it comes from love, not ideology.

 
1324Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 19:44
Examples of racism charges being slung around? Ones that aren't in your head, that is.
 
1325Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 19:49
MITH and bili right here in this thread recently.

And while we are at it, the N-bombs outside Congress were all in liberal's minds.

When you parade the black caucus thru the tea partiers with hundreds of cameras recording on the most heated emotional day hoping for a Selma moment and you don't get one, you don't get to make one up out of thin air.

And no 'Kill the Bill' does not count as racist hate speech or death threats no matter how mightily your mind longs and squirms to make it so.
 
1326biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 20:12
I called you a racist?
 
1327Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 20:28
#448, the other current thread.

Baldwin hangs around sites I feel dirty even spending time in. Twisted, vile, racist conspiracy sites with some really nasty creatures lurking in them.

Just ridiculous and insulting. I cannot think of a single site I visit that promotes racism. If you think what isn't 'the official version of events' as twisted, well sometimes you need a disoriented moment or two to get straightened out.
 
1328Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 20:30
I've never called him a racist, either. In fact I've defended him from that specific charge, probably more than once.

If I thought B was a racist then that's what I would have called him.

What happened to the guy who used to deride liberals for giving rise to what he called 'the cult of victimology'?
 
1329Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 20:32
#1327 tells you all you need to know about this ridiculous charge.

 
1330Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 20:32
What happened to the guy who used to deride liberals for giving rise to what he called 'the cult of victimology'?

Sarah Palin happened, America's favorite victim.
 
1331Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 20:56
I've never called him a racist, either. In fact I've defended him from that specific charge, probably more than once.

If I thought B was a racist then that's what I would have called him.


What do you call #1315? Yes I recall and appreciate your having defended me on that in the past but now you do this to me. It rolls off my back when trolls do it, but I really don't appreciate it from you and bili.
 
1332Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 21:10
Accusing you of frequenting websites with racist content is not the same as calling you a racist.

Pointing out your undenyable bigotry is not the same as calling you a racist.


What happened to the guy who used to deride liberals at this forum for being too thin-skinned to deal the truth?
 
1333Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 21:50
I categorically deny that God or God's standards are bigotted. He has full authority and ability to decide morality and you don't. It is just outrageous that liberals have the gall to take for themselves his perogatives. It is not bigotted to give that job to the person who actually merits it.
 
1334Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 21:52
And accusing me of visiting racist sites is an out and out lie.
 
1335Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 21:55
He has full authority and ability to decide morality and you don't

And you do?

Since when did this turn into a religious thing for you? Can you, at any point now, differentiate between religion and politics? The only one really talking about this in religious terms is you, ironically by slamming back against perceived religion insults.
 
1336Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 22:32
Can you, at any point now, differentiate between religion and politics?

When reading and believing the Bible becomes the legal and political target of your politics, don't come crying to me about blurring the lines between religion and politics.

I'm called a bigot for believing in God's standards by you a supposedly religious person because you put politics above God.
 
1337Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 22:35
My rejection of your interpretation of your god's morality has nothing to do with your pretending I called you a racist.

Everyone already knows your religion is what dictates your bigotry toward gay people.

And your religion has nothing to do with why you think it's such a knee-slapper to characterize the black governor of New York as a subservient slave.
 
1338DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 22:38
I'm going to say this as nicely as possible.

I think the fundamental(ist) problem here is that what you believe to be God's standards are not what most people in the world, including most Christians frequenting this thread, believe to be God's standards. Or, to put it differently, that the priorities you attach to certain of God's teachings are dramatically different than the priorities that others take from those same works.
 
1339Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 22:49
And I am sick and tired of being lectured about racism from people who don't have any standing to be making the accusations they make against me.

Among other things I don't have a racist or bigoted bone in my body because my god is placing people of both sexes and all races in places of high authority even over angels. There is nothing you can tell me that would lead me to have more respect for people of other races and both sexes.

Meanwhile your side is removing the intrinsic value of all human beings. We saw it with Terri Schiavo. We are seeing it with abortion. We are seeing it with this HCR bill which replaces the intrisic value of all humans with the premise of "quality-adjusted life years." If Ezekiel can tell this person he has less worth than that person over there and therefore they will have to die, then you don't get to lecture me on discrimination.

 
1340DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 23:12
Do you see how it's difficult for "our side" to reconcile that point of view with you responding "He's gay" as if it actually refutes the point someone is making?

Or how it's difficult to reconcile that with supporting someone telling a college student to go ride a camel? (Note, it'd be perfectly okay to say "Yes, that was a poor choice of words, but...". You haven't done that. You've supported the sentiment 100%.)

You may profess to not have a racist or bigoted bone in your body, but the direct evidence points otherwise. And the direct evidence is all anyone on this board can really go by, now isn't it?

Now, if you want to try to back out of it and say "yeah, on reflection, saying something like what Coulter said is probably not right, and while I'm at it I should try to debate Sullivan's points on the merits instead of making a cheap gay slur", that would go a long way toward proving that what you say in post 1339 is true.

Otherwise, people (including me) are going to keep throwing that direct evidence back at you when you profess to not have those bones in your body. It may even be true, but if it is the muscles that cause your fingers to hit the keyboard in certain patterns have some serious issues. :)
 
1341DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 23:14
The cliff notes version of 1340 is:

If you don't want to be labeled a racist/bigot, then:

1. Don't say racist/bigoted stuff, and
2. Don't support others who do, solely because you happen to agree with their political views.

When you

1. Say racist/bigoted stuff, and
2. Actively support other people's clearly racist/bigoted statements,

then what are others supposed to think?
 
1342Mith
      ID: 58136177
      Fri, Mar 26, 2010, 23:31
I am sick and tired of being lectured about racism from people who don't have any standing to be making the accusations they make against me.

If you don't understand or can't be honest about what anyone accuses you of, your assessment of their "standing" to make those accusations has no value.

I shouldn't have to say so but in the interest of humoring you in your sick and tired state:
Boldwin is not to my knowledge or judgement a racist.
That sentence doesn't contradict anything else I've written today and I stand by all of it.
 
1343Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 01:07
I'm called a bigot for believing in God's standards ...

wrong on both counts, sadly.

Two things I greatly admire about your religion, Baldwin:

-the SCOTUS case West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette which allowed that school children need not be forced to say the Pledge of Allegience. From the majority opinion: Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization.

-the great lengths to which Witnesses try to remain separate from the world, including refusing to vote, remaining politically neutral, hold office, serve in the military, or celebrate religions with pagan sources.

I have to say--your actions on this board for the last year or so makes you the mostly unlikely JW I've ever interacted with.
 
1344Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 02:13
Having grown up in a world which in my youth had just put my people in death camps all over the nazi and communist world I have been astonished how quickly the world forgot those horrors and with what rapidity the people in this country have rushed headlong down that same path with those same totalitarian utopian ideas as if their folly had never been demonstrated.

While I cannot change your course, vote or rebel I can at least ask you to open your eyes. But the god of this system is so very very good at blinding your eyes and misleading you into believing his ways are light.
 
1345biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 09:22
My response to that would be:

1) You can't live your life (or govern responsibly) living in constant fear, and

2) If you are looking for the bogeyman in a similar shape in which it came before, you are almost always going to be fearing the wrong thing.
 
1346Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 09:38
We've never had a worldwide dictatorship unfettered by public opinion or the pressure of other nations to behave.
 
1347Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 09:39
And I know the way out. You are the one with the problem.
 
1348Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 11:53
I have been astonished how quickly the world forgot those horrors and with what rapidity the people in this country have rushed headlong down that same path

every time you say something like this it's a stupid, offensive, and completely wrong statement.
 
1349Astade
      ID: 38542218
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 17:17
Boldwin, you present yourself as a bigot on this forum. Do
you know the definition of bigotry?

I rarely see tolerance conveyed in your posts nor any type of
compromise/concurrence in debate.

Without citing examples from innumerable posts, I'll agree
with MITH. This is a case of calling a duck a 'duck'.
 
1350jedman
      Dude
      ID: 315192219
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 19:00
big·ot   [big-uht] Show IPA
–noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or
opinion.
 
1351scoobies
      ID: 1272718
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 19:07
quack!
 
1352astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 19:09
well at least we can rest easy knowing that jedman knows the definition of a bigot.
 
1353Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 19:30
I wouldn't argue that B fits the definition of bigot found at dictionary.com. And I would advise avoiding dictionary resources that don't seem to know what a shwa is.

I'll go with the Merriam-Webster m-w.com definition:
Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: \ˈbi-gət\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1660
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
 
1354sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 20:29
re 1346..I would be inclined to dispute that statement. While we have never had a GLOBAL entity such as you descrbe, 'worldwide; in context of the 'known world' in ancient times? Most certainly have seen such things. Which is not to say, your portrayal of the Obama Admin as a dictatorship is at all accurate.
 
1355Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 20:38
Which is not to say, your portrayal of the Obama Admin as a dictatorship is at all accurate.

Obviously I have not said that.
 
1356sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 20:45
reread 1346 B. That is obviously what you are inferring. Dont deny now, that you have never said what your statement clearly implies. How disingenuous do you truly wish to be?
 
1357Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 20:53
There is no global dictatorship yet. The creation of the EU shows you the way the pieces will be put together however.
 
1358sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 21:46
Thats like saying the occupation of the continental US under our "manifest destiny", was a step in that direction.

Meaningless, empty, dribble.
 
1359Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 22:09
Projection.
 
1360sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 22:25
saying and applying the same event to our continent and theirs. In your mind, theirs is evil, ours is OK.

Disingenuous. (aka B.S.)
 
1361Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 23:38
No, but they are working on it.
 
1362astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Sat, Mar 27, 2010, 23:54
Baldwin,

I think post #69 in that thread sums up the legitimacy of that thread. Nice try.

 
1363Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 03:38
I wish I was wrong. While I'm at it I wish my critics would put even a small fraction of the time researching this stuff as I do.
 
1364Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 09:08
I wish my critics would put even a small fraction of the time researching this stuff as I do.

Researching would indicate a broad gathering of knowledge from multiple sources, in order to arrive at a somewhat objective conclusion, as opposed to relying almost exclusively on hard right sources with ingrained bias. While I don't dismiss everything I read in WorldNetDaily or Newsmax, I do have to consider that these sites are promoting an agenda based on political ideology as opposed to journalistic integrity.

If someone here links to Factcheck.org or MediaMatters, your response is to conjure George Soros as if that alone is grounds for immediate dismissal of all content. Would you feel the same if everytime a Fox News link was presented it was immediately dismissed by conjuring Rupert Murdoch?
You've made it abundantly clear over the years that anything you consider mainstream media is basically worthless as a source.
Having a preconceived opinion, then finding articles or sites that support that opinion, isn't research, it's propaganda, be it from the right or left.
 
1365Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 09:34
I have tracked the specific government teams and their leader working on it as they make treaties and agreements behind America's back and as they change names to keep one step ahead of the media.
 
1366sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 09:50
So, this secretive society has apparently managed to remain invisible and undetected by investigative journalists galore; yet somehow YOU have uncovered the global conspiracy?


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
 
1367Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 10:09
Here is a good starting place from perhaps the leading light. Research SPP, study the way the EU started with the 'Common Market' also known as the EEC just as we have NAFTA, and watch the way it solidified until holdouts literally had no choice but to join.

I expect the dollar will be made to collapse and you'll all gladly run to the bank to trade them in for Ameros. [just adding that one for a future 'I toldya so']
 
1368DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 11:59
"I have tracked the specific government teams and their leader working on it as they make treaties and agreements behind America's back and as they change names to keep one step ahead of the media. "

Why not spell it all out then? Go ahead. Take the time, publish your treatise. Judging by Palin's speech fees, you'd make millions.
 
1369sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 12:00
I'm on record Boldwin, as stating that at some point in time, in the future; we on this planet will undoubtedly have a singular, unified global government.

It simply follows .

1) I do not for one second, believe that we are alone in this universe as an "intelligent' life form

2) As human society has evolved over time, the geographic area covered by a singular governing body has grown. Technology advances have enhanced communications, trade, data rates; to the point that we can now transmit information 50% of the way around the globe, in less time than it not all that long ago took, to get a message sent across town.

3) As trade becomes global, as communications become global; human interests become intertwined and some of the differences/barriers between differing societies begin to fall.

As 2 and 3 progress, the ultimate establishment of one unifying governing body, becomes more and more 'common sense'.

When might this happen? I dunno. 100 years form now? 200? 350? Nobody knows. But I am quite certain it wont be in our or our childrens lifetimes. So you can prolly quit worrying much about it.
 
1370Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 13:36
With you blowing so much smoke no one will see it coming.
 
1371walk
      ID: 342381316
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 14:14
NYT, Frank Rich

Spot on, as usual.

 
1372Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 15:29
What did Mr Rich write when the book "The Assassination of George Bush" came out?
 
1373Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 15:40
So which is it, Sarge? Only a crazy conspiracy theorist could believe anyone would be doing this, or that it's your idea of inevitable common sense?

Depends on whether Sarge is trying to run cover for it, is my guess.
 
1374sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 15:50
My point Boldwin, is that in my belief; gradual movement toward a singular governing body is inevitable. I take exception, to YOUR apparent position, that said movement is inevitably evil.

I thought, that was all reasonably clear. (Perhaps not so clear though, when one is seeking a 'gotcha moment' vs comprehension of what is being said.)
 
1375Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 16:15
So it's a great idea in Sarge's eyes and when he isn't waving his arms and yelling 'Crazy talk, crazy talk, pay no attention to the madman', he spends the rest of his time cheering the news and thinking it's anything but crazy.

In other ways typical Sarge behavior everyone should have come to expect by now. The more he tells you there's nothing to a story the more you should expect it to turn out true.
 
1376sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 16:23
sooooo now when I say "inevitable", to you that means "great"?

Again, I dispute your claim that said movement is inherently detrimental. Or, was the very forming of our unifying government on the N American continent, a bad thing?

We did after all, take the land from the previous occupants and did so by a combination of force of arms and crooked treaties which we later violated. We did establish a single unifying government on that same land. Was that unification, detrimental to the following generations of citizens OF that government?

Was it Boldwin?
 
1377Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 16:28
It didn't turn into a global dictatorship with no check on the evil it could get away with.
 
1378sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 16:30
did you neglect to add 'yet'? Or are you admitting that such a movement does not HAVE to evil?
 
1379Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 16:43
Any human global government will by definition have no check on the abuse of power.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Man has ruled man to his own injury.

Ask the indians.
 
1380sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 16:49
Absolutely beyond your ability to even consider, that perhaps some enlightenment may come to our species? Some sense of cooperation ultimately arise?

I dunno what is going to happen anymore than you or anyone else does. I only know that I think said movement will slowly transpire. Centuries in the moving but inevitable all the same.

I like to think, that perhaps somewhere along the line, we as a species may wise up to the reality of our frail existance and find some way to work together and to still allow individuals their own civil rights as we know them today.

Now maybe the future will be more along the lines of Logans Run, maybe it will be closer to the world of Mad Max, and maybe it will be more like that of the Planet of the Apes. I DONT KNOW. I admit that I dont know and I wont try and spread fear mongering nonsense, to try and convince others that I do know. (And no, I don;t believe at all, not for one second; in your future kingdom in the heavens, so please dont bore us with more of that.)
 
1381Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 16:56
Any human global government will by definition have no check on the abuse of power.

This doesn't make any sense at all. We have one government in the United States. Does this mean there is no check on abuse of power in the United States?

I'm not advocating for a world government. But this doesn't mean that we should use arguments against them that don't sense.
 
1382Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 17:45
Abu Ghraib
 
1383Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 17:48
Now just imagine if there was no one who could ever catch that and express disapproval. It would be one long string of human rights abuses to infinity were it not for God stepping in.
 
1384Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 17:53
Now just imagine if there was no one who could ever catch that and express disapproval.

This sentence directly contradicts the 1st sentence of 1379.
 
1385astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 17:53
All I can do is laugh when you personify God to make an argument. lol
 
1386Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 18:08
I'm talking to you Godless, asking you who will be left to challenge a global dictator and shame him or force him into restraint?
 
1387Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 18:23
I realize now I missed your point in #1383. Realizing now what you meant, I was under the impression that your belief was that your god isn't supposed to "step in" until we get to the last chapter.
 
1388Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 18:43
The last chapter is when Satan unifies the world in opposition to the creator.
 
1389astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 19:33
RE 1386.
When it is upon us, how will god know that you didn't help Obama achieve his global dictatorship? Or have you already emailed Him?
 
1390sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sun, Mar 28, 2010, 22:29
for having a religion which doesnt believe in participating in politics, Boldwin you sure interject a LOT of your religion INTO politics.
 
1391Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, Mar 29, 2010, 09:22
#1367 is so flawed as to be rendered trash bin material.
Here's your starting point - a book over 10 years old by a man who couldn't even get confirmed as Ambassador to Panama(thanks to Jesse Helms)in 1994. While Pastor has promoted a North American Union with questionable objectives, there has been absolutely no movement as far as specific government teams and their leader working on it as they make treaties and agreements behind America's back and as they change names to keep one step ahead of the media.
What government teams? What treaties? What agreements? If they're so specific, why can you only link to a book by Robert Pastor which outlines his personal feelings on the issue? How about an update that isn't over 10 years old?

This is another example of you using some of the most biased and fraudulent journalism sources this country has ever had the displeasure to experience - Jerome Corsi.
But even Corsi moved on from this subject years ago, when he found he could make better headlines lying about swift boat vets and Obama being born in Kenya.

While you pat yourself on the back for the brilliant research and conspiracies you've uncovered and smugly claim

I expect the dollar will be made to collapse and you'll all gladly run to the bank to trade them in for Ameros. [just adding that one for a future 'I toldya so']

I suggest you research further and provide something of substance to back your claim that the dollar being replaced by Ameros is an inevitability.

An article by any respected economist or journalist will do. Jerome Corsi obviously doesn't fit that mold. Neither will musings from books over 10 years old.

 
1392Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 29, 2010, 09:23
I haven't moved anything an inch. Maybe I kept PD posting instead of campaigning. You tell me how I've influenced politics and government. I'd be amazed if I've influenced one vote.
 
1393Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, Mar 29, 2010, 10:24
After further research, even Corsi admitted two years ago that North American Union: The dream 'is dead'

The Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America is dead, says Robert A. Pastor, the American University professor who for more than a decade has been a major proponent of building a North American Community.

"The new president will probably discard the SPP," Pastor wrote in an article titled "The Future of North America," published in the current July/August issue of the Council on Foreign Relations magazine Foreign Affairs.

The SPP, which critics contend is a step toward a North American Union, is an agreement to increase cooperation on security and economic issues signed by the leaders of the U.S., Mexico and Canada in 2005. Despite having no authorization from Congress, the Bush administration launched extensive working-group activity to implement the agreement. The working groups – ranging from e-commerce, to aviation policy, to borders and immigration – have counterparts in Mexico and Canada.

"The April summit meeting was probably the last hurrah for the SPP," Pastor wrote, referring to the fourth annual SPP meeting held in April in New Orleans.


Hope nobody invested in Ameros.

 
1394biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Mon, Mar 29, 2010, 10:42
Well, Baldwin's only a half-decade behind, instead of the half century he usually is.

He's a veritable progessive!
 
1395Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Mar 29, 2010, 10:56
I may have just violated the terms of civility, i realize.
 
1396Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Mon, Mar 29, 2010, 18:46
The Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America is dead, says Robert A. Pastor

Oh, I am aware of that and they even fooled Glen Beck.

The problem is that these globalist/marxist types never never give up even when they are declared dead, as we saw with healthcare.

So...
Sources in the State Department confirmed that the more than 20 trilateral working groups will continue under the North American Leader's Summit, with bureaucrats from the three nations assigned from different agencies within each government. The groups will work on a North American agenda "integrating and harmonizing" administrative rules across a broad range of policy areas ranging from transportation to border security, health, e-commerce, movement of goods, environment, energy and financial services.

The SPP website has not yet been scrubbed of an extensive set of documents describing the "prosperity agenda" and "security agenda" of the SPP working groups.
...all the old SSP committees working to merge the three countries are still intact, still grinding away, just operating under a different name.

You will see it resurface from the dead in the most publicly visible way when their signature product, the NAFTA supersuperhighway tollroad [built and owned by the spanish Cintra company], rolls on with barely a hitch.

 
1397Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Mar 29, 2010, 18:59
and in the mean time, Republican red faces over party's $2,000 LA bondage club bill
 
1398astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Mon, Mar 29, 2010, 23:02
hmmm...their website is down. must be getting a lot of hits ;)
 
1399astade
      Sustainer
      ID: 214361313
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 01:18
The website is back online. I guess Baldwin went to bed ;)
 
1400Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 08:44
all the old SSP committees working to merge the three countries are still intact, still grinding away, just operating under a different name.

Merge the three countries? Neither you nor Corsi has presented a shred of evidence to back that hysterical claim. Even if the idea is to create a EurpeanUnion-style alliance, is France merged with Germany? Italy? Spain?
Almost comically, we find this tidbit in Corsi's completely speculative piece in the #1398 link:

Get the book exposing the diabolical plot to unite the U.S. with Canada and Mexico: "The Late Great USA" autographed by author Jerome Corsi for just $4.95 today only!

If you want to sell a book to the terminally paranoid, it's important to use desriptions like diabolical plot, even if you've exposed nothing of the sort.

If Corsi is all you've got, as I mentioned in #1391, you've got nothing.
 
1401Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 13:16
I've provided the book written by the guy who is the leader of the movement and he's relatively up front about it, despite the name changes.
 
1402biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 13:42
What kind of "movement" could it possibly be if nobody, except maybe a few conspiracy theorists afraid of their own shadows, has ever heard of it?
 
1403Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 13:59
The best kind.
 
1404Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 14:47
The kind the media keep protected in the shadows until the time is right.
 
1405Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 14:49
The kind that doesn't listen to or care about the will of the people.
 
1406biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 15:28
Well, heck. I guess we should thank you for shining some daylight on this then! Keep up the good work. We were almost secretly united with Canada!

These close-calls are unnerving.
 
1407Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 17:17
I've provided the book written by the guy who is the leader of the movement and he's relatively up front about it, despite the name changes.

I'm going to end my side of this with this post, since it's too frustrating to ask you to present something to support your claims, then get the kind of responses that prove nothing.

You linked to the book, but have you read it, or only Corsi's manipulative and distorted interpretation.

Pastor made some recommendations, and most of the ones that suggest a merger of sorts, he himself admits would never be acceptable to North Americans, be they U.S., Canadian or Mexican.

Let's look at this movement, the one with the same motivation, but with a different name, which is your claim. I'll even leave out that Pastor hasn't had a government position in over a decade, and use Corsi's own words from your link:

Sources[all unnamed in the article] also confirmed the SPP mission was "refocused" at the Guadalajara summit Aug. 10 to emphasize three themes: (1) North American citizen security; (2) North American economic competitiveness; and (3) North American energy policy and climate change agenda.

Where's the merger agenda? Where's making the dollar collapse and the bank issuing Ameros agenda? Where's the diabolical plot? Where was the leader of the movement, Robert A Pastor?

Next time you feel the need to regale us about the brilliance of your research, try actually doing some instead of parroting Jerome Corsi and WND.


 
1408Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 18:24
Actual governmental bodies are doing the mundane bureaucratic work of implimenting a merger as if it were a done deal.

To act as if this were merely speculative is a pure ostrich exercise on your part.
 
1409biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 18:33
Frank Rich has some insight into the source of Baldwin's delusion.

To find a prototype for the overheated reaction to the health care bill, you have to look a year before Medicare, to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Both laws passed by similar majorities in Congress; the Civil Rights Act received even more votes in the Senate (73) than Medicare (70). But it was only the civil rights bill that made some Americans run off the rails. That’s because it was the one that signaled an inexorable and immutable change in the very identity of America, not just its governance.

The apocalyptic predictions then, like those about health care now, were all framed in constitutional pieties, of course. Barry Goldwater, running for president in ’64, drew on the counsel of two young legal allies, William Rehnquist and Robert Bork, to characterize the bill as a “threat to the very essence of our basic system” and a “usurpation” of states’ rights that “would force you to admit drunks, a known murderer or an insane person into your place of business.” Richard Russell, the segregationist Democratic senator from Georgia, said the bill “would destroy the free enterprise system.” David Lawrence, a widely syndicated conservative columnist, bemoaned the establishment of “a federal dictatorship.” Meanwhile, three civil rights workers were murdered in Philadelphia, Miss.

That a tsunami of anger is gathering today is illogical, given that what the right calls “Obamacare” is less provocative than either the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or Medicare, an epic entitlement that actually did precipitate a government takeover of a sizable chunk of American health care. But the explanation is plain: the health care bill is not the main source of this anger and never has been. It’s merely a handy excuse. The real source of the over-the-top rage of 2010 is the same kind of national existential reordering that roiled America in 1964.

In fact, the current surge of anger — and the accompanying rise in right-wing extremism — predates the entire health care debate. The first signs were the shrieks of “traitor” and “off with his head” at Palin rallies as Obama’s election became more likely in October 2008. Those passions have spiraled ever since — from Gov. Rick Perry’s kowtowing to secessionists at a Tea Party rally in Texas to the gratuitous brandishing of assault weapons at Obama health care rallies last summer to “You lie!” piercing the president’s address to Congress last fall like an ominous shot.

If Obama’s first legislative priority had been immigration or financial reform or climate change, we would have seen the same trajectory. The conjunction of a black president and a female speaker of the House — topped off by a wise Latina on the Supreme Court and a powerful gay Congressional committee chairman — would sow fears of disenfranchisement among a dwindling and threatened minority in the country no matter what policies were in play. It’s not happenstance that Frank, Lewis and Cleaver — none of them major Democratic players in the health care push — received a major share of last weekend’s abuse. When you hear demonstrators chant the slogan “Take our country back!,” these are the people they want to take the country back from.


You and yours are on the wrong end of history Baldwin.

Your choice is now to live your life embittered and ranting, or accept the change that is happening, help shape it so that it works for you, and learn to again love your country.
 
1410Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 18:34
Actual governmental bodies are doing the mundane bureaucratic work of implimenting a merger as if it were a done deal.

Guessing. Is that your new term for research?

The 2nd sentence is merely a distracting attempt to cover your incompetence in presenting a coherent and cohesive arguement to back your claims, in lieu of facts.

 
1411Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 18:42
The intellectual framework is all laid out for you in Pasteur's book, not just Corsi's.

Just as it takes 4 years of bureaucratic implimentation work to ruin the healthcare system, it takes years and years of working out the mundane details of how to implement a merger and this work is being done by twenty governmental bodies. They have an agenda and an assignment and they couldn't care less what you think of it. They are just going to go ahead and do virtually all of it without congressional input. One crisis and it gets plugged in fully built and ready to go.
 
1412biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 18:56
A timeline! Yay! So we will expect your mia culpa in 2018?
 
1413Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 19:23
No I am not predicting the year, and I don't want your stinking Ameros when I win the bet.
 
1414biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 19:38
Heh.

What happens if you are in the middle of getting a heart transplant gratis? Who wins then?

Both of us?
 
1415Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 20:02
Anyone needing a heart transplant will die in the waiting line. You can be sure of that.
 
1416biliruben
      ID: 461142511
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 20:10
Heh. Uh, I work with transplant surgeons. More than 50% of their patients are on medicare or medicaid, and yet somehow they still manage to get transplants. The only people who have trouble getting care are the uninsured.
 
1417Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Mar 30, 2010, 20:33
Baldwin is still under the belief that the law sets up a Canadian-style health care, I think.

Or worse: A UK-style system.
 
1418Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 05:37
No, PD but it will inevitibly lead in short order to the bill Obama wanted in the first place as soon as private insurers are driven out of the market. In addition we will have the death panels as soon as the feds are wiring doctors the specifics of what they are allowed to do for each patient. That will be early on. Most people needing the heart transplants will be old and therefor unworthy according to Ezekiel Emanuel, may he receive his own mercy.
 
1419sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 08:03
there is that 'death panels' fraud again.
 
1420biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 08:36
It's a comfy, safe position to have. He can dispense with all intellectual honesty while for the next 50 years, all he has to say is "just you wait! You'll see! You'll be sorry!"
 
1421sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 09:11
well bili. Unless I live to be 103, I wont HAVE to listen to it for the next 50 years. lmao
 
1422Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 09:36
Most people needing the heart transplants will be old and therefor unworthy according to Ezekiel Emanuel, may he receive his own mercy.

Please provide the time, place or article where Ezekial Emanuel stated

"The old are unworthy of a heart transplant."

Sarge is correct. You continue to promote fraudulent characterizations as if they are honest evaluations, regardless of the evidence presented to counter your claims.

This is another case where you have parroted an opinionist(in this case Betsy McCaughey), and obstinately defended her distortions, despite the fact that she has been completely discredited in her characterizations. James Fallows of the Atlantic Monthly described her role in the healthcare debate: "She has brought more misinformation, more often, more destructively into America's consideration of health-policy issues than any other individual. She has no concept of "truth" or "accuracy" in the normal senses of those terms."
 
1423Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 09:40
 
1424Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 11:26
Do WE go to them?

We invented them. We're not called the libertine party for nothing.
 
1425Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 11:28
Betsy McCaughey pointed to the exact location and words to prove her points. Just because you can't bring yourselves to digest them and understand that those words mean what they say, doesn't take away from her magnificent work at all.
 
1426Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 11:48
whooooooooooooooosh, over your head, regarding the the party that constantly claims to be fighting for the morals of this nation.
 
1427Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 12:15
The fact that she pointed to exact pages doesn't mean she proved anything, as has been pointed out by nearly everyone.

You've been tooled. The sheen of sourcing has taken you in hook, line and sinker. Willingly, I might add.
 
1428Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 12:22
Love is blind and you just can't see that Ezekiel truly wants to thin the herd starting with you if you are by his rules too young, too old or too disabled.
 
1429Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 12:24
I should point out your shame, that you traded in one religion where Christ thot everyone was worth dying for, for a religion that thinks people are animals for the culling.
 
1430sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 12:25
Love is blind and you just can't see that...

You don't have a leg to stand on.


Self-love Boldy, is THE most blinding kind.
 
1431Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 12:31
It really did drive you and Tree blind. I thot that was an old wive's tale.
 
1432Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 12:31
There is certainly a trade-off here. Mostly having to do with sensible arguments, et al.

Have you read anything at all by Ezekiel Emanuel, Boldwin? Seriously--for something to cause you to spew such hatred, I would have hoped you would have read the material first hand to understand the arguments being made.

But you continue to demonstrate no understanding of the arguments being made, only continuing to spit out pre-chewed crap which matches your anti-Democratic Party bias.

It makes you look unreasonable. And silly.

So please don't post about how you have such strong feelings for stuff you haven't bothered to read.
 
1433Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 12:38
Have you read anything at all by Ezekiel Emanuel, Boldwin? Seriously

Indeed I have. It always can be summarized as 'of course no one supports euthanasia [having said that you can't accuse me of supporting it] nevertheless here is the intellectual framework for implementing euthanasia'.
 
1434Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 12:41
How does Just because you can't bring yourselves to digest them and understand that those words mean what they say, basically saying I'm not only wrong but stupid as well, lay a foundation for discussing the topic on an adult level?

Using such terms as "commie care," and "kill granny" and characterizing Emanuel as the reincarnation of Josef Mengele takes you out of the conversation, because there's no where to go.

How can there be a discussion of the merits of a heart transplant, when there's one heart available and a 90 year old granny with a life expectancy of less than a year and a 40 year with a life expectancy of 40 years who both need one?

And you ignore that in the late 1990s, when many doctors wanted to legalize euthanasia or physician-assisted suicide, Emanuel opposed it. He challenged a common stereotype of patients expressing interest in euthanasia. In most cases, he found, the patients were not in excruciating pain. They were depressed and did not want to be a burden to their loved ones.

To know whether it is ethical to turn off the respirator for a quadriplegic patient requires conceptions of personal identity, a worthy human life, murder and suicide; to know how much information a doctor must provide a cancer patient to obtain proper informed consent for an experimental therapy requires conceptions of autonomy, coercion and the public good and how to balance these values; to know whether to break the AIDS patient’s confidentiality and inform his wife requires a framework for weighing the relative importance of competing individual rights as well as the public good. - Ezekial Emanuel

So, there you go, some of Emanuel's exact words. I've tried to digest them and understand them, but I'm still not coming up with "kill granny" or "death panels."
 
1435Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 12:48
only continuing to spit out pre-chewed crap which matches your anti-Democratic Party bias. - PD

And I was fighting the nazis at his 'The Hastings Center' before I had any idea Democrats would think killing Terri Schiavo was a party plank. I honestly thot that if any issue was bipartisan, opposition to euthanasia would be it.
 
1436Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 12:52
PV

The original draft he wrote even included specific mention of withholding water and food.

I don't know how you are going to admit to me you were wrong about this when you are strapped to your hospice bed starving and dehydrating to death. Knowing I was right will have to suffice.
 
1437Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 12:55
The proper policy, in my view, should be to affirm the status of physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia as illegal. In so doing we would affirm that as a society we condemn ending a patient's life and do not consider that to have one's life ended by a doctor is a right. This does not mean we deny that in exceptional cases interventions are appropriate, as acts of desperation when all other elements of treatment—all medications, surgical procedures, psychotherapy, spiritual care, and so on—have been tried. Physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia should not be performed simply because a patient is depressed, tired of life, worried about being a burden, or worried about being dependent. All these may be signs that not every effort has yet been made.- Ezekial Emanuel

Nope, still not getting "Kill grannY or "death panels"
 
1438Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 13:01
The original draft he wrote even included specific mention of withholding water and food.

link? More guessing? Heard it on the Grapevine?
Insisting you're right about some hypothetical, future situation is making me question your current mental state.

Besides, as a 58 year old male with no health insurance, it's just as likely that I'd be strapped to a hospice bed starving and dehydrating to death, while the 90 year old granny in the room next door, with Medicare, is getting that $250,000 heart transplant.
 
1439Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 13:10
That is only because you think you aren't in the crosshairs. You assume you have enuff QALY.

Oh, right, you don't have any idea how he intends to condemn you to death.

Not only will we have death panels, WE ALREADY HAD THEM BEFORE THE HRC PASSED. Obama is pushing death panels so hard he made sure it had already been snuck into the Stimulous bill.

It is the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research.
 
1440Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 13:16
link? More guessing? Heard it on the Grapevine?

I pointed out the exact location to PD at the time. See if he remembers.
 
1441Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 13:36
Iirc, it was competly context-free. When you read the
context, it was obvious he was saying the exact opposite of
"kill granny".
 
1442Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 14:36
His rationing at the expense of the elderly is just beyond dispute. Even bili who thinks it's a great idea will confirm this for you. You might have gotten a clue when Obama shaved half a trillion off the care of the elderly, but I guess you need a bigger 2x4.
 
1443sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 14:39
1439...lmao nice use of the bolding skill.

Actually, the verbiage from HCR, was largely taken from the Medicare Reform Act, written and passed by your beloved Republicans during GWBs 1st term.

I do not recall ANY noise from you then, reference "death panels". If they were not "death panels" under the Rep Admin, then the same function can not be a "death panel" now, under a Dem administration.

A rose is a rose is a rose. It is NOT hemlock.
 
1444Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 14:43
If you find that anyone from the Hastings Center co-wrote it, I'll be inclined to agree with you then. I'm not aware of the language in that one. I didn't see the Bush dynasty save Terri.
 
1445sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 14:51
Thats because there was no 'person' to save. Just a shell of what once was Terri Schiavo.
 
1446Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 15:19
His rationing at the expense of the elderly is just beyond dispute.

His rationing? It doesn't matter who holds the reigns of power, anyone concerned with reality understands the following:

With the advent of baby boomers reaching Medicare age, either taxes will have to rise dramatically, or the level of Medicare dedicated to the elderly infirmed will drop dramatically or possibly both.

But you're not concerned with exploring the options and hard decisions that will need to be made. Your focus is on telling me, "you don't have any idea how he intends to condemn you to death."

And, then there's Obama is pushing death panels so hard he made sure it had already been snuck into the Stimulous bill.

Again, if that's your starting point, where's there room for discussion? It's like it never even crosses your mind that softening the rhetoric would go a long way towards actually making points and allowing for counter points.


 
1447Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 15:33
Perhaps if you weren't wavering between 'of course there aren't death panels', and 'of course there have to be death panels' the debate would progress better.
 
1448Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 15:49
I never even use the term 'death panel' because I see no purpose in being deliberatly disingenous.
 
1449Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 16:29
Which day of your dehydration death will it cease to be disingenuous?
 
1450sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 16:40
ASSUMING, the govt or its appointed representatives re the HCR Act were to deny a heart transplant for ex, to a 97 yr old.

1) Would you call that a 'death panel' at work?

As I understand it, current insurances wont pay for such a procedure because the patient is too old and the objective of a 'longer life' has become moot.

2) So, is THAT a 'death panel"?

3) Is it fiscally intelligent, to approve $500,000 procedures for someone who is HIGHLY likely to be on their deathbeds inside of 6-12 months, with or without said procedure? (The source of the 1/2 mill is irrelevant. Taxes if the govt or insurance premiums if a private company. BOTH, get their money from the citizenry)

Those are straight up questions Boldwin. Try something entirely new for you...give straight up answers this time.
 
1451Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 16:45
PV

The original draft he wrote even included specific mention of withholding water and food. - B

link? More guessing? Heard it on the Grapevine? - PV #1438


Page 430

‘‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutri- 16
tion and hydration.’’. 17
They plan on talking you into agreeing to being starved/dehydrated to death just like Terri.
 
1452sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 16:54
You know Boldwin, you really ought to try reading the releant sect, vs simply cherry picking a line or two out of it.

That ENTIRE clause, is discussing what things an "order of life sustaining treatment" would probably want to include. And comes under the description of what "advanced care planning consultations" should entail.

Try backing up 3, 4 maybe 5 pages and then READING all of it.

blockhead.
 
1453Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 16:55
You are cherry-picking an unusually heroic measure. No, I wouldn't.

Obama/Emanuel plan on being far more dracionian. The 'take a pain pill and go home and die case' Obama was so proud to defend was denying a $70,000 pacemaker implantation.
 
1454sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 16:56
17 ‘‘(B) An advance care planning consultation with re18
spect to an individual may be conducted more frequently
19 than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant
20 change in the health condition of the individual, including
21 diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a
22 life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening
23 injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a
24 long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or
25 a hospice program.
VerDate Nov 24 2008 00:08 Jul 15, 2009 Jkt 079200 PO 00000 Frm 00428 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\H3200.IH H3200 jlentini on DSKJ8SOYB1PROD with BILLS
429
•HR 3200 IH
1 ‘‘(4) A consultation under this subsection may in2
clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
3 treatment or a similar order.
4 ‘‘(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order
5 regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect
6 to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to
7 the treatment of that individual that—
8 ‘‘(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as de9
fined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care
10 professional (as specified by the Secretary and who
11 is acting within the scope of the professional’s au12
thority under State law in signing such an order, in13
cluding a nurse practitioner or physician assistant)
14 and is in a form that permits it to stay with the in15
dividual and be followed by health care professionals
16 and providers across the continuum of care;
17 ‘‘(ii) effectively communicates the individual’s
18 preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, in19
cluding an indication of the treatment and care de20
sired by the individual;
21 ‘‘(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized
22 within a given locality, region, or State (as identified
23 by the Secretary); and
VerDate Nov 24 2008 00:08 Jul 15, 2009 Jkt 079200 PO 00000 Frm 00429 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\H3200.IH H3200 jlentini on DSKJ8SOYB1PROD with BILLS
430
•HR 3200 IH
1 ‘‘(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as
2 defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the in3
dividual.
4 ‘‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subpara5
graph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treat6
ment to an indication to limit some or all or specified
7 interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may in8
clude indications respecting, among other items—
9 ‘‘(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the
10 patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac
11 or pulmonary problems;
12 ‘‘(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer
13 to a hospital or remaining at the current care set14
ting;
15 ‘‘(iii) the use of antibiotics; and
16 ‘‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutri17
tion and hydration.’’.


put into context from pg 428 thru Boldys cherry picked line on pg 430
 
1455Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 16:58
I read it blockhead and they intend to talk you out of food and water. They will get you to sign an advance directive denying yourself food and water.
 
1456sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 16:58
re 1435,,,

OK, same questions...patient isnt 97, they are 87.

Now what is your answer?
 
1457sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 16:59
the above should say re 1453. transposed two digits.
 
1458Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 17:02
My understanding is that it would be rare that such a matching organ would become available. Yes I'd consider a youger candidate over a very senior citizen but I wouldn't deny one if they were the only match.
 
1459sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 17:05
OK, so "A" heart becomes available in Miami perhaps; 3 matches across the country on the waiting list currently.

You would give the organ by age then, and not by sequential order on the waiting list?
 
1460Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 17:07
Liberals pass it screaming 'there are no death panels' and then discuss the death panels like they had never lied about it to get it passed.



Just like PV was denying it as recently as #1437.
 
1461Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 17:10
Yes they are tuff decisions but they should never be left to the nazis at the Hastings Center to make. You trust them. After watching Dr Death Cransford operate, I would never let anyone from the Hastings Center within a hundred miles of that decision making process.
 
1462sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 17:11
lmao Boldwin...what do you think claims reviewers at insurance companies do today?

They SPECIFICALLY state "that really expensive medical procedure which isn;t going to do any good..." or very similar words. (IOW, the illustrations I have pointed out above and which you apparently agree with.)
 
1463Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 17:12
The difference is in respect for all human life. The Hastings Center has none.
 
1464sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 17:14
And claims adjustors do? The above isnt a "death panel" discussion. Its a pragmatic discussion.

Here Boldwin, is your tag line from now on; "THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING!"

please alter your username to a more appropriate one like, chickenlittle maybe.
 
1465Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 17:18
I see, so by your logic, because insurance companies are heartless, let's get a really heartless SOB like Emanuel involved instead.

Are you aware that states have insurance regulators? Why not fix the problem instead of swapping SOB's?
 
1466Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 17:43
Going around the table.....Liberal, Liberal, Liberal, Liberal, Conservative. Your typical ABC Sunday morning.

 
1467Richard
      Dude
      ID: 204252420
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 18:02
The two party system has boiled down to this - Hell no you can't vs Yes we can

 
1468sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 18:07
and that Richard, is the unfortunate truth. That is PRECISELY what it has become.
 
1469Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 18:42
Wait till you lose the House.
 
1470sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 18:48
can you not even digest the topic/thought? Richards point, with which I agree, was that he is LAMENTING the fact that American politics has become PURELY adversarial. Us vs them, we vs you, left vs right....NO GRASP, NONE...of the dire need for MUTUAL effort toward a MUTUALLY satisfactory conclusion.
 
1471Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 18:49
There is no such thing as a mutually satisfactory socialism.
 
1472sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 18:52
Unless/until you get off this extremist kick of yours (not ALL liberal notions are 'socialism'. Many, are simply socially responsible"...you're a waste of time Boldwin. A total, complete, utter....waste of time.
 
1473Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 18:59
Yes, all your socially responsible bankrupt programs. How is bankrupting the nation responsible?
 
1474DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 19:07
Ask every president of the last 20 years except your very favorite.
 
1475sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 19:10
are we BK as a country? No? Then your contention, your argument, your premise, your thoughts...are moot, irrelevant and erroneous.

Good night.
 
1476Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 19:54
If Social Security is upside down this year where will the country be when all the baby boomers are on it?

Depends on whether you ask Emanuel to cull the herd.
 
1477sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Mar 31, 2010, 21:22
No Boldwin. It depends on whether or not BOTH parties can grow the requisite cajones, to lift the cap on the Soc Sec tax AND install a needs test for drawing soc sec benefits. Do those two things, and the program becomes solvent...instantly.
 
1478WiddleAvi
      ID: 352232517
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 14:55
Doctor posts sign sayin if you voted for Obama find another doctor

All I can say is WOW !!!
 
1479Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 15:33
I hope Obama supporters inundate this guy's office and make a plethora of appointments.

and then cancel them.
 
1480Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 16:51
Do the vote Widdle...you'll love the outcome. No you won't, I did.
 
1481WiddleAvi
      ID: 352232517
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 18:44
???
 
1482Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 18:46
The poll in your link, Widdle.
 
1483Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 18:49
of course you loved the outcome Baldwin - it's non-scientific.

you're not interested in actual polls, because they rarely support whatever you're prattling on about that day.
 
1484WiddleAvi
      ID: 352232517
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 18:50
Glad to know where you and the rest of the GOP stand on this issue. And you were the one complaining about euthenasia ?
 
1485Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 18:51
Considering that the linked article comes right from the top of Drudge, there should be no surprise about the outcome of the poll.
 
1486Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:03
The new conservative patriotism: a doctor who chooses to ostracize and hopefully turn away his patients if he doesn't like the way they vote.
 
1487Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:04
Widdle

When you have a 45 day wait to get someone to look at your burst apendix, don't come crying to me. I warned you half the doctors would quit and rationing would be the death of us all.
 
1488WiddleAvi
      ID: 352232517
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:08
Just so I'm clear. Your OK with a doctor turning away patients because they voted for Obama ?
 
1489Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:08
When you have a 45 day wait to get someone to look at your burst apendix, don't come crying to me.

fiction.
 
1491Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:12
Remember, they have to make good on Rush's famous hope for America during the Obama administration. Makes no difference to them if they have to make it a self-serving prophecy.
 
1492Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:14
Baldwin again seems to be under the impression that he's in another country, operating under a health care system that isn't driven by private insurance company profits.
 
1493Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:20
Just so I'm clear. Your OK with a doctor turning away patients because they voted for Obama ?

They voted to create a scarcity of doctors. I'm not ok with it. They are.
 
1494Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:31
Is anyone else here under the mistaken impression that that the downward trend in number of GPs in this country began with the election of Obama, or with the passage of healthcare reform, or will start as soon as the healthcare bill is in full effect?
 
1495Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 19:50
Things were rosy and looking sweet until that socialist fooled the people with his teleprompter and promises of hopey change.
 
1496Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 20:17
Yes I suspect the rightist narrative on healthcare in America will look something like Michael Moore's pre-invasion depiction of Iraq in Fareiheidt 911.
 
1497Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 20:58
Well, can we just wait until that happens before we're faced with post after post of "I told you so"?
 
1498Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 21:02
Why waste precious time twiddling fingers when there's marxism to roll back?
 
1499Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 21:27
to roll back tilt at
 
1500Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 02, 2010, 23:10
that may be my favorite literary reference ever posted on this forum. it legitimately made me laugh out loud.
 
1501Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 06:11
Wealth redistribution is marxism. There is no shortage of politicians willing to admit wealth redistribution is on the agenda. The only point in denying it is as an enabling lie to give it cover as it proceeds apace.
 
1502sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 07:24
What are insurance premiums if not 'wealth redistribution"? You pay in, stay healthy, they get your wealth and that of hoards of others and then they get rich.

EVERY economic system EVER (with the possible exception of barter), is a method of "wealth redistribution".
 
1503Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 08:13
Economics is wealth distribution. That's why its so ridiculous how the acts like Obama let out some big secret he wasn't supposed to tell on the day that Joe the Plunger decided stick his face in front of the cameras.

Unfettered capitalism means redistributing all the wealth straight to the top. Speaking in these broad platitudes does nothing to further the debate. It just riles up the ignorant.
 
1504Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 09:26
There is a world of difference between walking away from a transaction minus $1000 and with an ounce of gold...[where wealth has not been transfered...both parties are still just as wealthy as they were before the transaction]...

...and the transaction where MITH instructs Taxman to take Tree's brother's money and give it to me.
 
1505biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 09:43
How about when we take taxes out of my Barista's paycheck and drop a few billion on bombers the Air Force doesn't need, because Boeing has sweet lobbyists? Boeing management gets the sweet taste of wealth redistribution.

How about when CALPERS drops half a billion in fees into the pockets of private equity fund managers for under-performing, because of dodgy tax-advantages that are a bit opaque to the average tea-bagger and don't generate the rage. Wealth redistribution up the ladder.

I could list 10,000 more examples of the rich robbing the poor with government complicity, but they don't generate the rage, because the process is sufficiently opaque.

I thought you, Baldwin, would at least be smarter than the average tea-bagger or Beck-o-phile.

Wealth redistribution happens all the time. The rich know how to do it daily and with stealth and government complicity.

The poor have to get lucky every generation or two when we get a president who isn't as easily corruptible.
 
1506Frick
      ID: 48239247
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 11:02
How about when we take taxes out of my Barista's paycheck and drop a few billion on bombers the Air Force doesn't need, because Boeing has sweet lobbyists? Boeing management gets the sweet taste of wealth redistribution.

So Boeing stockholders, workers and suppliers don't get any benefit from those contracts?

 
1507biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 11:14
Sure they do. The upper management simply gets more benefit. Wealth redistribution under the guise of jobs is still wealth redistribution.
 
1508Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 11:47
and the transaction where MITH instructs Taxman to take Tree's brother's money and give it to me.

if you needed the money, my brother would find it perfectly acceptable. he's a big believer in helping those less fortunate than him.

he's well aware that a few smart business decisions, combined with some luck and social consciousness, have made life reasonably decent for him and he his wife, and taking care of those might need some help is something that is very near and dear to him.

but thanks for using him as an example. if in real life you're anything like your rotoguru personality, he's a much better person than you could ever hope to be.
 
1509Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 11:49
How about the transaction where Jesus instructs Boldwin to give tree his own money?
 
1510Boldwin
      ID: 362262121
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 21:00
If I see him dying by the side of the road, PD, I'll manage to.
 
1511Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Apr 03, 2010, 21:07
How will you when you'll be holding your nose with one hand?

I'm just saying. In or out. No half-sies.
 
1512Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 22:53
perhaps it's time to start a thread for campaign 2012?

Huckabee likens gay marriage to incest, polygamy
 
1513sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Tue, Apr 13, 2010, 22:56
Just saw a Gubernatorial candidate commercial for Barrett I think it was. One of his "talking points", is how he is ranked as THE most opposed Congressman to Obama, save one.

Scarey, when your campaign is based upon OPPOSING the majority elected President. What would you rightwingers have said about that back in 2002 or 2006 I wonder?
 
1514DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 11:08
"So Boeing stockholders, workers and suppliers don't get any benefit from those contracts? "

Basically what bili said right below you, but, of course they do but as long as we're arguning about non-consentual wealth redistribution, this is the same as any other program, right?

For that matter, so is stuff like using tax money for building an interstate highway bridge over some river, even though not everyone is going to benefit from it by driving over it.*

So the options are:

1. Advocate for the complete dismantling of any government program, ever, which is at least internally consistent but doesn't bear any relation to anything ever getting done, or:

2. Advocate for specific government programs and against other ones. Which is fine, as long as one recognizes that the reasoning for this is "because I think these programs are a priority and those other ones are not" rather than "OMG!!!1111!!!!!1!! Gubmint programs bad** socialist marxism commies!!!!!1!1!!!!!!!". Then at least we can have a rational discussion about the relative economic benefits of the various programs.

*--and yes, one can argue about the residual benefits of that bridge over the river promoting commerce and reducing prices in some ephemeral way, but if you want to make that argument I insist that you allow me to also point out the residual benefits of having a healthier population of poor people on the economy as well.

**bad, except for the ones I like, of course! (in very fine print)
 
1515boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 11:37
Basically what bili said right below you, but, of course they do but as long as we're arguning about non-consentual wealth redistribution, this is the same as any other program, right?

For that matter, so is stuff like using tax money for building an interstate highway bridge over some river, even though not everyone is going to benefit from it by driving over it.


the reason it is wealth redistribution has nothing to do with how the money is spent in general, it has to with the taxing policy. If the rich are paying a disproportionately large amount of the taxes and poor disproportionately small amount of the taxes then no matter what program the money gets spent on it is redistributing the wealth. If everyone is getting taxed equally then you can argue that some programs redistribute wealth some do not. And if you over tax the poor then you can argue that probably no program redistributes the wealth down.
 
1516Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 11:41
In a society with progressive taxation that will always be the case.
 
1517DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 12:01
"the reason it is wealth redistribution has nothing to do with how the money is spent in general"

Wait, what? Of course it does.

If you use tax money to pay for something I'll never use, aren't you redistributing my wealth to someone else who does benefit from the project?

If we pay equal taxes for something you use twice as much as I do, then you're distributing wealth, since you should in theory be paying twice as much since you use it twice as much... right?
 
1518Frick
      ID: 323111411
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 12:11
Re: 1513

Wasn't Obama's campaign in essence, "I"m not George Bush nor a Republican."

Were people voting for Obama or against the Republican's and Bush. This isn't a new strategy in politics. While Obama won easily and had people behind him, that tide has seems to have shifted when it comes to the health insurance reforms. I'm not saying if the reforms were needed or good, I'm just saying that the public sentiment seems to have started to go against Obama.
 
1519sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 13:33
depends on whether or not Frick, you listen to FOX only, or a variety of other sources. Once folks find out what is REALLY in the Reform vs what FOX talking heads SAY is in it, they trend toward approving of it.
 
1520boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 13:47
re: 1517, well actually it is quite a bit more complicated than that but in theory it should all just average itself out some years maybe you get 90 cents back on every dollar spent in taxes some years you get $1.10 back. Also if you choose not to use use national parks or state roads then well that is your won fault.
 
1521Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 14:12
No, it doesn't even itself out. If a rich business owner needs
50 educated employees, does he have to pay for their
schooling? Does he pay taxes x 50 so the can drive the
roads to get to his business? No, he doesn't. He gets vastly
more for his tax buck than some schmo like me.

It never evens out. The rich get richer, and suck the poor dry
like vampires, sluplrping our wealth upwards like a dry
martini.
 
1522Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 14:35
Republicans are in the strange position of having eroded the tax base with credits for decades, and now they're complaining that not enough Americans are paying taxes.

An obvious conclusion, IMO. When your social programs, as a party, are all addressed through tax code manipulation, this is what you get.
 
1523boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 15:06
re: 1521 I guess i should have clarified my self that was assuming an equal tax system under a progressive system the poorer you are the more you get out of the system vs the rich who get much less. do the math if you think other wise.
 
1524sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 15:37
the rich get "much less" out of the tax system, because they get MUCH more out of the socio-economic system. (and I'm not so sure they DO get less out of the tax system. The poor, cant afford 2 week vacations to National Parks, nice cars to drive cross country, and tend to see slower LE response times than do wealthy areas. Their schools too, tend to be far less than is found in a wealthy district.)
 
1525Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 15:46
No, it doesn't even itself out. If a rich business owner needs
50 educated employees, does he have to pay for their
schooling?


Detroit graduates 1/4 of their highschool age youngsters. Thank god for public education. How would our business owners ever find educated employees without it? Easy. After they finish with that useless education they go pay for a real education.
 
1526Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 15:47
Are you suggesting the graduation rate in Detroit would be significantly higher if all of those schools were private?
 
1527Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 15:52
You could doubt it?
 
1528Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 15:56
Competition has a lovely way of weeding out private schools whose graduates can't read their own diplomas.

Unlike the public sector.
 
1529Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 15:57
Why would any private corporation go there? Seriously--isn't Detroit schools a good example of a social program beyond the reach of a strict free market solution?

No company can make a profit on such an enterprise. Profit driven companies can solve some problems because of flexibility, risk-taking, and so on. But private companies are loss-averse, which makes Detroit schools a place where privatizing won't make one hoot of difference.
 
1530Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 17:03
OK, get yer people to stop fighting school vouchers then.
 
1531Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 17:13
I don't know about Detroit, but Cleveland (where I'm from) vouchers are starting to pick up support. The problem has been that it is never about vouchers themselves--conservatives insist on vouchers + (canceling of teacher contracts/teacher testing/etc etc). And the use of the vouchers themselves are unevenly handled.

All this is probably worthy of its own thread.
 
1532Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 17:24
OK, get yer people to stop fighting school vouchers then.

pretty sure school vouchers aren't high on too many agendas at the moment.

then again, you're still fighting Vietnam.
 
1533sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 19:53
You want private schools in Detroit B? And just how do you think those who cant afford to keep their homes due to HIGH unemployment, are going to pay for private tuition?

Like PD said, the 'free market", is NOT a panacea for all the nations woes.
 
1534Frick
      ID: 323111411
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 22:13
Re: 1519
Good point Sarge. I was going by the reports that I've heard that the Republicans will gain seats in the mid-term elections.

 
1535Boldwin
      ID: 11301223
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 22:29
the 'free market", is NOT a panacea for all the nations woes.

But very nearly.
 
1536sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Wed, Apr 14, 2010, 22:40
1534...clearly possible. Though far from a given at this point.

No B, not even "very nearly".
 
1537Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 11:31
The GOP's fixation on being the "Anti-Obama Party, All the Time" is about to make them step onto a land mine.

McConnell is an idiot. What he's doing is painting the GOP as pro-Big Wall Street. Dodd and the Dems are practically giddy at the idea of the GOP unwittingly painting themselves as the protectors of Wall Street fat cats.
 
1538Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 15:36
hitting a new low on Facebook.

DEAR LORD, THIS YEAR YOU TOOK MY FAVORITE ACTOR, PATRICK SWAYZIE. YOU TOOK MY FAVORITE ACTRESS, FARAH FAWCETT. YOU TOOK MY FAVORITE SINGER, MICHAEL JACKSON. I JUST WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW, MY FAVORITE PRESIDENT IS BARACK OBAMA. AMEN
 
1539Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 15:37
I saw that joke a few days ago. At best, it is a bit juvenile.
 
1540Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 18:37
1538-It just amazes me how you are offended by a joke and then post the joke so every body can see it. lol Well thanks anyway, got a lot of good laughs at work today. lol
 
1541Biliruben movin
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 19:11
I agree. Wishing the president dead is a real knee-slapper.

I'm laughing so hard I've got tears in eyes. Wahoo! Man!
Funny stuff.
 
1542Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 23, 2010, 20:21
It just amazes me how you are offended by a joke and then post the joke so every body can see it. lol Well thanks anyway, got a lot of good laughs at work today. lol

glad you got some laughs among your ignorant co-workers.

i suppose if someone told a joke about your wife or daughter being raped, it would also be funny? after all, a joke is a joke, right? all in good fun!

haha! yea man, my wife got raped, but get this, she was eating a Big Mac at the time, so she was enjoying the burger, when the dude thought it was him she was enjoying! haha! the joke's on him!
 
1543Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Apr 26, 2010, 10:06
RNC on anti-deceptive mailer law: "It doesn't apply to us."
 
1544Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, Apr 29, 2010, 20:06
Poll: McCain clobbering Hayworth

Good to see. Hayworth is one of the least likeable politicians in the country.
 
1545Boldwin
      ID: 183112613
      Thu, Apr 29, 2010, 23:30
Not only is Hayworth a great guy, but McCain has had to resort to posturing as if he hasn't been the biggest enablers of illegal immigration and as if he were practically a minuteman himself....phffffft. The sooner that poser gets kicked out politics the better.
 
1547Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 02:45
I think we really have come to the heart of it:

 
1548Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 08:31
Not only is Hayworth a great guy,

you know him personally?
 
1549Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 09:15
Not only is Hayworth a great guy

I suppose if you define a great guy as someone who goes on the radio and says nasty things about libruls, then the shoe fits.

However, for those who prefer to deal with reality, Hayworth is more opportunist than conservative.

If Hayworth was a Democrat, you'd be screaming Alinsky tactics and Chicago-style politics up one side of this forum and down the other.
Not only is Hayworth ethically challenged, he makes up arguments out of thin air:

"You see, the Massachusetts Supreme Court, when it started this move toward same-sex marriage, actually defined marriage -- now get this -- it defined marriage as simply, quote, the establishment of intimacy," Hayworth said. "Now how dangerous is that? I mean, I don't mean to be absurd about it, but I guess I can make the point of absurdity with an absurd point -- I guess that would mean if you really had affection for your horse, I guess you could marry your horse. It's just the wrong way to go, and the only way to protect the institution of marriage is with that federal marriage amendment that I support."

Not that it was necessary, as almost anyone with a brain understood that Hayworth was talking out his ass, Rachel Maddow allowed him the opportunity to clarify on her show:

Maddow: "Where does the establishment of intimacy thing come from? Where in Massachusetts law or in the Supreme Court ruling does it say the establishment of intimacy?"

Maddow said she had spent the afternoon looking for it, but couldn't find it anywhere.

Hayworth: "As we went back and reviewed that document back when the argument was made, the high court in Massachusetts defined marriage in a rather amorphous fashion, simply as quote, the establishment of intimacy. Now I think we all agree there's much more to marriage than that."

Maddow: "Sir, I'm sorry, it didn't."

Hayworth: "Okay, you and I have a disagreement."

Maddow then cited several uses of the word "intimacy" in the Supreme Court ruling.

Maddow: "The establishment of intimacy as the definition of marriage, it's just not there, let alone the horse thing. What you said about the establishment of intimacy being the definition of marriage in Massachusetts, I don't think it's true, sir."

Hayworth: "Well, that's fine. You and I can have a disagreement about that."

Maddow: "Well, it either is true or it isn't, it’s empirical."

Hayworth: "I appreciate the fact that we have a disagreement on that."

We're with Maddow here. This isn't a matter of legal interpretation. The Massachusetts Supreme Court did not define marriage "simply as quote, the establishment of intimacy." And when Hayworth inserts the word "quote," the expectation is that he's directly quoting the phrase "establishment of intimacy" from the ruling. He's not. The ruling doesn't contain that phrase.

link

Is it any wonder McCain is kicking his butt?
 
1550Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 09:44
Reports: Longtime NYS Sen. Dale Volker Retiring

[sarcasm]OMG! it's the end of the Republican party! the sky is falling! a Republican is leaving office! [/sarcasm]
 
1551Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, May 09, 2010, 17:54
GOP shuts down web site which was intended to generate new GOP ideas.

write you own snark here.
 
1552sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Sun, May 09, 2010, 18:10
1543: The laws dont apply to us. (Ala our previous administration and the BoR and/or Constitution)

1544: An unpopular Rep is whooping a popular one. Though the popular one, is a generally recognized liar.

1551: The party of NO, shuts down a source for new ideas.


Is there REALLY, any question as to the direction of the Rep Party? (Here is a hint...go to your bathroom. Flush the stool and watch the water. THAT, is the direction of the GOP atm.)
 
1554Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, May 15, 2010, 09:53
 
1556Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, May 15, 2010, 11:10
Call them the Jack Bauer Republicans
Last week, Ilario Pantano won the Republican nomination in North Carolina’s 7th District, setting up a challenge to incumbent Democrat Rep. Mike McIntyre in November. In 2001, immediately following the 9/11 terror attacks, Pantano, a veteran who had previously fought in the Gulf War, left his career as a successful producer and media consultant in his native Manhattan to rejoin the Marines and was eventually deployed to Iraq. In April 2004, Pantano killed two unarmed Iraqi detainees, twice unloading his gun into their bodies and firing between 50 and 60 shots in total. Afterward, he placed a sign over the corpses featuring the Marines' slogan “No Better Friend, No Worse Enemy” as a message to the local population.

Pantano said that he acted in self-defense and that the two suspects were charging at him, but the military accused him of premeditated murder. The case became an international news story and Pantano’s defense a popular cause for conservatives. In 2005, military prosecutors dropped the charges, in part because a key witness’s testimony could not be corroborated.

Far from minimizing the incident, Pantano has made his biography central to his appeal. His book, Warlord: No Better Friend, No Worse Enemy, which recounts the ordeal, features blurbs not only from the Michelle Malkins of the world but from Democratic politico James Carville. Pantano received sympathetic treatment from Jon Stewart on The Daily Show as well for his moving account of the complexity of war.


Pantano is not the only veteran to highlight the moral ambiguities of war on the campaign trail. Retired Lt. Col. Allen West, running in Florida’s 22nd District to replace Democratic Rep. Ron Klein, seems to revel in them.

West was forced to retire from the Army and fined $5,000 after he admitted to apprehending an Iraqi policeman he suspected of planning an ambush, watching as his troops beat him, and then firing a gunshot by the Iraqi’s head in order to scare him into divulging information. West said the decision saved lives by preventing an ambush. But no plot was ever discovered and the policeman in question later told The New York Times that he had no knowledge of any attacks.

Such an incident might be a source of shame for some officers. But not for West, who has developed a superstar following among Republicans by portraying himself as a real-life Jack Bauer.

"You might recall that in 2003, I made the decision where I sacrificed my military career for the lives of my men,” he was quoted in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel as saying in a 2007 campaign speech—his first bid for the Florida House seat, which he lost. ”I will sacrifice every ounce of me to be your next congressman."
After reading about Pantano I was immediately struck by the memory of the attacks on John Kerry for an incident in which he chased a Viet Cong soldier who had fired an RPG at his swiftboat into the jungle and killed him. Taking a cue from the SwiftVets, Kerry was called a coward by all corners of the political right for the incident.

You think these aren't the same people who honor Pantano - man who shot two prisoners (who are known to have been unarmed) 60 times and used the corpses as a billboard to threaten local citizens - as a hero?

Can anyone make a case that the broader principle at work here has anything to do with apropriate military conduct and is not entirely political?

Shameless phoneys, the lot of them.
 
1557Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Sat, May 15, 2010, 15:22
I wouldn't comment on these cases without knowing the details nearly as well as the jurers.
 
1558Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, May 15, 2010, 15:35
Please. As if any such principle ever stopped you from fowarding every last two bit accusation of every left-leaning pol you have ever criticized!

And for the record I have not called them criminals.

 
1559Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, May 15, 2010, 15:38
Really the shamelessness of post 1557 is simply galling.

Are you somehow unaware that you're posting on a site which houses 10 years worth of your engaging in exactly the activity you today claim you are too principled to lower yourself to?
 
1560Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Sat, May 15, 2010, 18:00
Liberals are such naifs when it comes to war. Before you go piling on soldiers over wartime conduct you really have to almost be there.
 
1561DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sat, May 15, 2010, 18:04
Could you enlighten us as to your years of military service, since you're clearly the expert?
 
1563Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Sun, May 16, 2010, 08:36
Before you go piling on soldiers over wartime conduct you really have to almost be there.

There are 5 or more threads from 6 years ago with the word "Kerry" in the title in which you took exactly the opposite position.

You're one of the shameless phoneys.
 
1564Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Sun, May 16, 2010, 12:37
I pointed you to his fellow soldiers in the boat who were in a position to judge.
 
1565DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, May 16, 2010, 12:46
You are in no position to judge, by your own logic.
 
1566Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Sun, May 16, 2010, 13:42
see #1564
 
1567DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, May 16, 2010, 15:11
Kerry was there too. Yet you want to pass judgment on which of their versions of events were right, despite having no experience in the matter yourself.

Or does the "have to almost be there" constraint not apply to you?
 
1568Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Sun, May 16, 2010, 16:12
I find it very easy to believe a 'Skull&Bones'man views his life as more valuable than the next guy. Thus I know which version rings true.
 
1569Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Sun, May 16, 2010, 16:16
Plus we have Kerry's own version of the VN war at the time.
"Summarizing the accounts of American soldiers he had heard at an antiwar conference in Detroit weeks earlier, Mr. Kerry said the men told how 'they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam.' " the Times reported in a February 28 retrospective on Kerry's Vietnam war protests.
 
1570DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, May 16, 2010, 16:21
You've never fought. Therefore I reject your notions.
 
1571Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, May 16, 2010, 19:13
I pointed you to his fellow soldiers in the boat who were in a position to judge

You pointed to a single guy who said he was in the boat but which was later proved to be a lie. Two other people who were in the actual boat rejected your assertion.

 
1572Boldwin
      ID: 8423823
      Sun, May 16, 2010, 21:09
Yes, well I am sure there are three left wing 'factcheck' sites with so very authoritative sounding names that see it that way. *yawn*
 
1573Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, May 16, 2010, 21:44
Facts, I realize, are tiresome to you. but when your own guy changes his story...well, I guess thinking that facts matter to you is a bit too much to expect.

Signing off....
 
1574Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 01:13
Yes, well I am sure there are three left wing 'factcheck' sites with so very authoritative sounding names that see it that way. *yawn*

because, of course, sites with names like "Obamaisamarxist.com" are very authoritative.

you're still living in the 60s. get over it.
 
1575Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 09:12
Liberals are such naifs when it comes to war. Before you go piling on soldiers over wartime conduct you really have to almost be there.

We're not really talking about war here. We're talking about the American military occupation of Iraq. A huge part of that occupation's success was to gain the trust of the Iraqi civilian population. Perhaps you think putting 60 bullets into 2 unarmed men, draping their bodies with a sign “No Better Friend, No Worse Enemy” as a message to the local population is a way to gain trust. I doubt it, though. If Pantano were running as a Democrat, you'd be condemning him for his tactics.
A prime example of the hypocrisy of your statement is your steadfast condemnation of George Soros as a Nazi collaborator when he was a 13 year old in the chaotic atmosphere of World War 2 Hungary. There's no consideration of wartime conduct you really have to almost be there, because it's more important to villify someone you consider a political enemy than to adhere to honest principles.

The post allowed you to issue a blanket condemnation of liberals as naifs, while setting yourself up as the wise sage whose knowledge of wartime surpasses the millions of liberals who have and do serve in our armed forces. I wonder how sarge33rd and soxzeitgeist feel about your characterization of them as naifs?
Considering the source, they probably think it's simply comical.




 
1576Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 10:16
With the state facing a budget shortfall of at least $11 billion, Texas Gov. Rick Perry has spent almost $600,000 in public money during the past two years to live in a sprawling rental home in the hills above the capital, according to records obtained by The Associated Press.

meanwhile, many Republicans and most Tea Partiers worship this guy.

can someone explain why?
 
1577DWetzel at work
      ID: 49962710
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 10:51
I'm going to go way out on a limb and say it's because of the little (R) after his name, which means that what he actually does doesn't mean anything.
 
1578bibA
      ID: 15401711
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 12:03
Liberals are such naifs when it comes to war. Before you go piling on soldiers over wartime conduct you really have to almost be there.

Well, I may be a naif, whatever that is, because I do consider myself liberal. However, I also saw war firsthand, doing my year in Viet Nam. Went there a naive 20 yr old, and considered myself pretty conservative. Saw a lotta bad crap there. Came away a liberal. Didn't keep me from then working 33 years as a cop. Remained a liberal the whole time, although it was certainly not fashionable. But, it didn't keep me from doing a good job. Prior to this thread, I didn't even know what a naif was.

ps - A guy who worked on the same law enforcement agency as me did have first hand experience with Kerry, and he claims Kerry put his life on the line and saved this guys life.
 
1579Boldwin
      ID: 45455179
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 12:10
I'm just curious. What percentage of the guys you served with seemed a bit too likely to shoot first and question whether the target was legitimate, second?
 
1580Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 12:27
A guy who worked on the same law enforcement agency as me did have first hand experience with Kerry, and he claims Kerry put his life on the line and saved this guys life.

interesting to know this. i'm sure those that don't want to believe will dismiss it and you as lies, but nonetheless, that degree of separation on this message board is pretty cool.
 
1581Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 12:50
i'm sure those that don't want to believe will dismiss it and you as lies

Who are you referring to? Anybody on these boards?
 
1582Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 12:51
At the very least Boldwin, but also anyone who disgraced themselves by mocking John Kerry's service to this country.
 
1583Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 13:08
i'm sure those that don't want to believe will dismiss it and you as lies

Who are you referring to? Anybody on these boards?


i don't think that's relevant, but FWIW, i was not referring to you.
 
1584bibA
      ID: 2481712
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 13:08
1579 - A fair enough question, but I wouldn't attempt to give a percentage, too many variables. I can only speak for what was in my heart. Guys were put in pretty difficult situations. I will say I was bothered by what guys said they did, but war stories can be problematic.

1580 - Tree, I must point out that I never worked with or spoke with this gentleman. Anything I know about him and his experiences are from the news or internet.
 
1585Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 13:50
Irrelevant, Oh OK. How does one determine which part of your posts are relevant, and which parts are not. If one is not sure, they may treat all of your posts as irrelevant.
 
1586Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 13:56
How does one determine which part of your posts are relevant, and which parts are not.

the same could be said of any post, by any poster. in some cases, specifics aren't necessary, and speaking metaphorically is more than acceptable.

but the facts is that there are those who simply refuse to believe things, no matter how much factual evidence is against their own particular beliefs.
 
1587Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 14:17
What percentage of the guys you served with seemed a bit too likely to shoot first and question whether the target was legitimate, second?

The question is incomplete. You forgot to ask how many were so proud of twice unloading his gun into their bodies and firing between 50 and 60 shots in total. Afterward, he placed a sign over the corpses featuring the Marines' slogan “No Better Friend, No Worse Enemy” as a message to the local population.

that they used it as a political campaign promotion.


 
1588biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 14:50
I would submit that though there are some, mentally unstable
blood-thirsty psychopaths are woefully underrepresented in
Congress.
 
1589Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 14:59
To be honest, had he left it with

I wouldn't comment on these cases without knowing the details nearly as well as the jurers

I would have likely agreed with that sentiment.

But he couldn't leave it there. He had to add the

Liberals are such naifs when it comes to war.

It's like an addiction, and as with most all addictions, it's unhealthy.



 
1590biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, May 17, 2010, 15:00
Let's just say GOP is trying to broaden its tent.

Never underestimate the blood-thirsty psychopath vote.
Well...those able to remain felony free in order to participate, I
guess.
 
1591Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, May 18, 2010, 09:04
more idiocy...

EXCLUSIVE: Miss USA Contestant is Shi’ite Muslim Hezbollah Supporter, Used Pageant Name to Promote Muslim Female Subjugation; Hezbo Taqiyyah Allows Bikinis?

Donald Trump, Dhimmi: Miss Hezbollah Rima Fakih Wins Miss USA; Rigged for Muslima? Miss Oklahoma’s Arizona Immigration Answer
 
1592Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, May 18, 2010, 09:41
Ugh. Now these people seem concerned that Muslim women have infiltrated our country. Wasn't it not so long ago that they were complaining about these women having to wear a burqa or hijab?
 
1593Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, May 18, 2010, 09:52
when she gets stripped of her crown for winning a pole dancing contest a few years ago, i'm sure these idiots will proclaim it a victory for America.
 
1594Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, May 18, 2010, 10:42
Indiana Rep. Souder says he'll resign over affair
 
1595Seattle Zen
      ID: 1410391215
      Tue, May 18, 2010, 13:20
Clint Didier, yes, THAT Clint Didier decries the "Marxist Utopia" those Democrats want to create, yet pockets a quarter million dollars in Federal farm aid.

Clint Didier recently threw his helmet into the US Senate race against Patty Murray. Should lead to some excellent unintended comedic moments as he loses miserably. At least he says that these payments should be lowered.
 
1596Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 08:04
One reason libertarianism isn't more popular.
 
1597Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 09:36
I understand that Paul is a bit of a dick. Or, at least comes off as one. And a bit clueless as well.
 
1598Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 10:06
I understand that (fill in name of democrat) is a bit of a dick. Or, at least comes off as one. And a bit clueless as well.
 
1599biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 10:08
Testy testy.
 
1600biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 10:09
Those conservatives. Always on and on about dickish equivalence.
 
1601Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 11:19
Ezra Klein on Paul

Paul's defense of himself is that his view on the Civil Rights Act has nothing to do with race and so he is not a racist. But by the same token, the fact that Paul's view on the Civil Rights Act is so dominated by his libertarian ideology that he cannot even admit race and segregation into the calculus is exactly why this is relevant to Paul's candidacy, why it's an issue and why it's among the best evidence we have in understanding how he'll vote on legislation that comes before him.
 
1602Boldwin
      ID: 454382011
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 12:40
Exceptional eyes-wide-open coverage of Tuesday results.
 
1603Boldwin
      ID: 454382011
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 12:48
It is the least racist position possible to insist that all men be judged and treated as equal individuals, and an inherently racist position to insist that a class of people must always be judged and treated as a class.

Treating all men as equals does not carry with it the risk of backlash. It is a fundamentally invincible moral position. Treating people as classes with preferences just invites counterproductive backlash.

Unfortunately while it's not helpful to minorities, such a backlash is not counterproductive to the democrats who stoke that fire endlessly.
 
1604Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 12:49
I read that story elsewhere too. The establishment GOP was really the biggest losers in the primaries. However, I'm not convinced that the Tea Party is the saviors of the GOP either, as laid out in that piece:

In the Pennsylvania special election to replace the late Rep. John Murtha, Republicans proved that they haven’t yet determined how to win in the sort of districts they’ll need to carry to take back the majority. Paint-by-numbers attacks on Democrats as water carriers for President Barack Obama and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi won’t cut it if the opposition doesn’t have actual ties or a record connecting the candidate to the party’s national leadership.
 
1605Boldwin
      ID: 454382011
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 12:53
AC, just livid at Reps for playing the expectation game backwards.
 
1606Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 13:46
Exceptional eyes-wide-open coverage of Tuesday results. = The Republican Party's biggest enemy: itself

that headline pretty much what most of the liberals have been saying here for quite some time.

as for Coulter's column, ditto. liberals here have been saying that as well - the different facets on the Right, instead of working together in an environment that seems like a good opportunity, they're too busy fighting with each other over what makes a real republican and who is not "conservative" enough.

 
1607Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 17:54
democrats who stoke that fire endlessly.

After posting 1596 today I meant to note that the obvious response from the right to this point would be that it's a baseless charge of racism. And while some on the left will undoubtedly see it that way, accusing Paul of racism isn't very close at all to Maddow's questioning.

Rand Paul is obviously an ardent and highly principled libertarian and I have no reason to think he is a racist. And I don't believe Maddow would so characterize him, either. She never once took issue with his repeated insistance that he abhors discrimination and as far as I'm concerned there's no reason to not believe him.

The problem isn't that he's a racist, but that he's so committed to his libertarian ideology that he disengages himself from what happens when those ideals are exploited by people who are racists or who will commit (establish, whatever) discrimination for whatever reason they care to.

And it's not just lunch counters and theatres. Consider, Paul, along with removing Article II from the 1964 Civil Rights Act, would also completely dismantle the Dept of Education and the public school system. So if you limit protection from discrimination so as to apply only to government entities... and then you take the government out of the school system, you're left with something actually worse than Jim Crow laws in some places, since there need won't even be a pretense for equal standards.

Too bad Maddow didn't raise that particular issue.
 
1608Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 19:09
Rand Paul is obviously an ardent and highly principled libertarian and I have no reason to think he is a racist.

You may have reason
 
1609Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, May 20, 2010, 20:05
Rand won his primary and the next day is fighting off charges that he wants to rescind the Civil Rights Act?

Man, this guy is going to be taken to school. I realize that libertarians like to present themselves as being above the dirt of politics as pure theory-driven beings, but Rand's naivety is going to be in for a rude awakening.
 
1611Boldwin
      ID: 19438215
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 06:47
He and his father are going to be a breath of fresh air that the Republican class of 06 badly needed. Jr. seems to be running exceptionally strong in KY. so I don't think he's going to hurt the local ticket either.

That his victory is a thumb in the eye of KY.'s Mitch McConnell is just frosting on the cake.
 
1612Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 07:56
What is it that makes him such a breath of fresh air? His committment to his principles?
Paul changes course, now supports Civil Rights Act in full
After an intense 24 hours, tea party darling Rand Paul — Kentucky's new Republican nominee for the Senate — is stepping back from his criticisms of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. He tells conservative radio host Laura Ingraham that he does in fact support the historic legislation. And he tells CNN's Wolf Blitzer that he would have voted for it if he were in the Senate.

That statement came after he declined to say he supported the act in interviews Wednesday on NPR and "The Rachel Maddow Show" on MSNBC. In both those exchanges, Paul said that though he personally abhorred discrimination and believed it should be banned from government-funded programs, he disagreed with the provision in the Civil Rights Act that banned discrimination by private businesses. Paul, along with many libertarians, believes that the federal government should have a very limited role in the everyday lives of Americans.

But after a firestorm Thursday, Paul told Ingraham that it was a "poor political decision" to go on Maddow's show and declared that he supported both the ban on public discrimination and the ban on private discrimination.
As the political winds change direction, so do Rand Paul's convictions. Like every other two-bit political candidate.
 
1613Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 08:32
And I should also note that I was 100% correct in #1607 when I said the right's response would be to cry that the left is accusing them of racism.

Again, at no point in Maddow's interview did she make any such insinuation. And yet here's Paul on Ingram's show (audio clip at the link in 1612) when she asked him about the Maddow appearance:
Ingram: Why would you go on Rachel Maddow's show and think you're - I said this, I said, who the heck's advising Dr. Paul? I gotta call him up and tell him the shows to go on. I mean, I think Rachel Maddow, she represents her view and I think she represents it - I think she tries to be fair, I guess to the extent that she's a liberal but what do you think you're gonna get when you go on the Rachel Maddow show? That's the kind of questions you are gonna get.

Paul: You're right and it was a poor political decision, probably won't be happening any time in the near future. Yeah, because the conflate things and wanna say oh you believe in beating up people taht were trying to sit in restaurants in the 1960s [what?? -mith]. And that's such a ridiculous notion [yeah, it's YOUR notion, fool! -m] and something that no rational person is in favor of. She went on and on about that. but no, I think these are settled issues in the Civil Rights Act. I have no intention of bringing up anything in the Civil Rights Act. I don't ---interrupted

Ingram: OK and Dr. Paul, yes, yes. So Dr. Paul lets get this staight; you are not for a ban on interracial dating?

Paul: Not for a ban on interracial dating. No.
 
1615Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 15:45
coming on the heels of #1613's when I said the right's response would be to cry that the left is accusing them of racism. that is pretty funny.
 
1616boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 15:51
thanks PD as usual I try and ask an intellectual question and i get accused of being on the right... you know what, Ill fix that.
 
1617boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 15:57
how come people are not crying out to protect ugly people or short people all fair worse in society than there taller more attractive counter parts?
 
1618Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, May 21, 2010, 16:00
Because those are not a protected classes.
 
1619Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, May 24, 2010, 13:16
what. the. hell.
Michael Steele “Can’t Condemn” Rand Paul’s Views, But Promises Paul Will Behave from Now On...



 
1620Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Mon, May 24, 2010, 17:56
I don't know that Steele should necessarily condemn Paul's views.

Paul is a very tricky case for the GOP. As far as I know he's for the most part a clone of his dad on policy, with the exception of a somewhat less anti-military stance (though I do believe Rand is on record opposing the Iraq War). And recall the way his dad was treated by the GOP establishment (including FOX News Channel, which actually locked him out of a debate) during the 2008 election.

Now they've got to swallow hard and play along while the tea partiers hoist that brand name up on their shoulders as their latest rockstar savior.
 
1621Mith
      ID: 482583111
      Thu, May 27, 2010, 09:25
The Libertarian Party of Kentucky: Rand Paul is not one of us.
May 25, 2010

Independence, Ky. – The Libertarian Party of Kentucky strongly condemns the hurtful comments of Republican senate candidate Rand Paul.

Rand Paul belongs to the Republican Party of Kentucky, an association which he makes of his own free will. Dr. Paul's sole libertarian credentials come from Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele, former adversary Republican Secretary of State Trey Grayson, and many in the mainstream media. In an effort to clear our good name, we make this public statement.

Rand Paul is not a libertarian. There are clear differences between the Libertarian Party, including the philosophy upon which is it based, and the philosophy and campaign rhetoric of Rand Paul. While the Libertarian Party shares some stances traditionally associated with the Republican Party, the LP also shares common ground on positions traditionally associated with the Democratic Party, and not always for the same reasons. We are an alternative to the two party system, not constrained by the model that defines both major parties.

Libertarians want a complete repeal of the PATRIOT Act, closure of Guantanamo Bay, and an end to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Rand Paul has stated that he wants to continue military detentions at Guantanamo Bay, a retroactive official declaration of war by Congress, and has denied that he seeks to overturn the PATRIOT Act.

In further contrast, libertarians want to provide a mechanism by which non-traditional couples can receive equal protection under the law. Rand Paul has voiced his support of the discriminatory “one man, one woman” definition of marriage and his opposition to any other civil contract option.

In 2009, social conservatives in Kentucky outlawed adoption by anyone not living in a traditional, legally-recognized marriage – a concept so extreme that even family counselor and conservative talk-show host Dr. Laura Schlessinger has opposed it. The Libertarian Party stood in strong opposition to this legislation. Rand Paul has acknowledged that he agrees with his party in this, squarely placing himself at odds with the Libertarian Party of Kentucky and libertarians nationwide, who have a strong record of fighting these inequities.

The Libertarian Party of Kentucky has primarily avoided being involved in the race for US Senate to date, other than to defend our party and the philosophy upon which it is built, and we intend to continue avoiding involvement. Rand Paul’s statements regarding all forms of discrimination are not consistent with, nor do they reflect the views of, the Libertarian Party of Kentucky. Rand Paul does not speak for us or for our party. We condemn all bigotry based on any and all factors.
 
1622Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, May 31, 2010, 16:54
GOP argues against health care program for 9/11 rescue workers, calling it an "entitlement program."

Sigh. Somebody check whether the GOP has been replaced by pod people who learned political behavior from bad Politico columns.
 
1624Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Jun 15, 2010, 23:58
to steal a MITH catchphrase:
Why do they say these things?
 
1625Boldwin
      ID: 135311520
      Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 04:59
Uhm, because every race huslter who works against MLK's color-blind society proves the rule in that business?
 
1626Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 20:40
In the "black is white" world of conservative media talking points, Obama capturing or killing Osama bin Laden would be furthering the aims of terrorists.

"If Obama does it, it must be wrong."
 
1627Mith
      ID: 37540118
      Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 10:06
Who is B calling a race hustler? King or Obama?

And for the record, typically I ask 'why do they say these things' when the referred statement is something that is (or is easily perceived as) racist or bigotted or otherwise racially insensitive in that vein. Not for accusations of bigotry, even such transparently flimsy ones as King's.

The point I'm usually stressing is that the GOP wants desperately to shake off it's reputation of embracing those with an anti-minority ideiology and yet we so commonly hear these crass, bigotted statements from within their ranks.

Not that we never hear it from crusty old white Democrats, mind you, but there's no denying the stark diference in frequency.
 
1628Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 10:08
There's no better example of their trouble with race than Michael Steele. The guy is clearly incompetent and (at times) downright embarrassing for the GOP. But they won't fire him. Because he's black.
 
1629Boldwin
      ID: 45561815
      Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 16:09
Racist.
 
1630Boldwin
      ID: 45561815
      Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 16:16
How is he obviously incompetent? Given that he has the patently impossible job of shoehorning the Tea Party and the McCain's in the same tent, exactly what besides that uncomfortable juggling act, has he stumbled at? You are just itching to call him an equal opportunity hire and are dancing around doing just that.
 
1631Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 16:45
Heh. OK, you keep believing he's the best guy for that job.
 
1632Boldwin
      ID: 45561815
      Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 20:09
I didn't say he was my choice. And you haven't provided example one of his alleged incompetence.
 
1633Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 20:35
There's nothing to see here. (or here.)

I'm not the only one.

Biggest reason: He's supposed to win elections. And he's lost them. Since becoming RNC chair the GOP has actually lost more elections than it has won.

Of course, it doesn't help that he's ceded his leadership to Rush Limbaugh.

 
1634Boldwin
      ID: 45561815
      Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 22:54
it doesn't help that he's ceded his leadership to Rush Limbaugh.

That is recognizing a reality he couldn't change if he wanted to. And for the good of his party he better not want to.
 
1635Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 22:57
I'm not disagreeing with him on it. In fact, I'm cheering him on. The longer Steele is RNC chair, the better things look for Democrats.
 
1636Boldwin
      ID: 45561815
      Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 01:56
Are we still waiting for your cheery prediction for November?
 
1637Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 10:31
You might be. But the close readers aren't.

 
1638Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jun 21, 2010, 18:11
Sharron Angle calling for the blood of other patriots to be spilled:

"I hope that’s not where we’re going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I’ll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out."

Wishfully encouraging revolution is un-democratic, by definition.
 
1639Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Mon, Jun 21, 2010, 18:18
those Second Amendment remedies

I don't like Harry Reid. I would love to see a moderate Republican or Blue Dog Dem take him out.
But this lady is flat out scary, and gives me no other option than to hope Reid retains his seat in the Senate.
 
1640Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jun 27, 2010, 23:35
Terrorists have a 20-30 year plot to use anchor babies as future terrorists

The only thing to do is go into complete lockdown and stay in a dark basement, apparently...
 
1641Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 21:06
Michelle Bachmann denounces the global economy.


I guess the common air we breathe will be the next socialist plot to be denounced...
 
1642DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 22:07
I propose that we cut ourselves off from the global economy right now. No more pesky importing oil and electronics! Things will work out just fine!
 
1643Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 10:23
Michael Steele seems to be implying that Obama started the war in Afghanistan.

At "best" Steele is saying we should not be there. t worst, he's invented a timeline which makes Obama the President in 2001.
 
1644Boldwin
      ID: 42651210
      Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 12:00
Letting China into the WTO sure worked out well.
 
1645Boldwin
      ID: 42651210
      Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 12:11
She is so far ahead of Iglesias on this one that he'll be regretting he ever posted that.

In the same way that Germans now bitterly regret having their economy linked inextricably with Greece, we will someday regret having been drawn into UCanaMex.

I am quite curious what the reaction will be... when these scenarios, so obviously in the works, [to those of us actually listening to and taking the words of globalists seriously]...actually come to pass. I am pretty certain it will be mass amnesia, cognitive disorder and denial. Too bad it won't be the confession of guilt, shame and apology that it should be.
 
1646Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 13:24
As a follow-up to 1643, some top GOP politicos are pushing back on Steele.

Could this be the end of the Michael Steele era?
 
1647Boldwin
      ID: 42651210
      Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 13:56
I'm a lot more concerned with who is exerting leadership in the Tea Party movement, than in Steele. I'm still fascinated with your fixation on Steele however. What advantage are you looking for from this?
 
1648Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 13:58
the phrase fascinated with your fixation coming from Baldwin is some fantastic unintentional humor.
 
1649Boldwin
      ID: 42651210
      Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 14:00
For some contrast, I can't even think of who chairs the Dem party, haven't wasted a moment worrying about it, and know it's Soros who is collecting and distributing now days, not the Dem Party.
 
1650Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 14:03
Steele is, of course, the Chairman of the GOP. To my knowledge there are no members of the Tea Party who have been elected to the Senate or the House.

I realize you are more concerned with who is in control of the far right (after all, they would be your political neighbors). But those of us concerned with the business of elections, policy implementation, and governance are more concerned with the top two parties rather than the fringes.
 
1651Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 16:42
Soros

BINGO! WOOHOO! THAT'S FIVE ACROSS! I WIN TODAY'S EDITION OF BALDWIN'S BUZZWORD BINGO!

Thanks Dwetz!
 
1652DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Jul 07, 2010, 17:33
The Republican senate nominee, Sharron Angle, is now sending cease and desist letters to Harry Reid's campaign on copyright grounds.

His crime? Archiving and reposting the Angle primary campaign positions, which have (mysteriously) been erased and/or changed significantly since the primary ended as Angle tries to make a huge shift toward the center.

I think Harry Reid doesn't have a lot to worry about.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2010/07/cease-and-desist-letter-from-angle-campaign-to-reid-campaign.php?page=1

The "offending" site: http://www.therealsharronangle.com/

Her "new" site: http://www.sharronangle.com/
 
1653Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 09, 2010, 17:36
Hyperbole Award Winner?

So far, anyway.
 
1654DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Jul 09, 2010, 18:45
Probably not even the top 10, sadly.
 
1655Boldwin
      ID: 57638923
      Sat, Jul 10, 2010, 00:43
Not hyperbole at all. Stalin, Hitler and Mao never had their hands on the levers of USA institutional power.
 
1656Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jul 10, 2010, 01:06
It is a hyperbole not because he has the power but because he is a threat.
 
1657Boldwin
      ID: 38649124
      Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 05:50
I agree he is a threat as this poll conducted by James Carville finds 55% of likely voters believe Obama is a socialist.

The other 45% don't know what a socialist is.
 
1658DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 11:09
I think your math is off, percentage need not add to 100, as clearly you belong in both categories.
 
1659Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 11:17
That poll says nothing about a "threat."

However, in the same poll, a majority of people think that the stimulus made our economic problems worse. Do while it is clear that the slash and burn tactics of the current "Party of No" are having some inroads into how people think, so are the current GOP's critical thinking skills.

Here's the thing: No Republican will beat Obama in 2012. So they will get beaten twice by a "socialist." Which just goes to show you that a good publicity job will only take a party so far.
 
1660Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 11:25
Seven Things Republicans Were For Before They Were Against Them

without question this could apply to plenty in both party.

of course, Robert Byrd flip flopping on his KKK-related activities appears to be a negative among many conservatives.
 
1661biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 13:14
All the poll shows is the campaign to make Americans
dumbers, spearheaded by fox and rush, seems to be working
as planned.

Liberals are too naively honest to compete.
 
1662Boldwin
      ID: 24671214
      Mon, Jul 12, 2010, 15:07
of course, Robert Byrd flip flopping on his KKK-related activities appears to be a negative among many conservatives.

Bwahaha! You even entertain that idea for a moment?

Those are some really lame beliefs when you need a strawman enemy weak as that to compare yourself to.
 
1663Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 16, 2010, 16:03
John Boehner, not known as the sharpest tool in the shed, floats the GOP's latest lead balloon: "No new federal regulations for one year."
 
1664Boldwin
      ID: 216211713
      Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 14:24
Who besides partisan Dem hacks making the cheapest of cheapshots, 'knows' Boehner isn't the sharpest tool in the shed?

I keep hearing the Tea Partiers saying he isn't one of their own, but his, 'Hell No!' is music to my ears.
 
1665Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 20:02
Other GOP members of Congress and many other people point out the same. If you weren't so busy trying to keep your ears happy you'd be able to see what is in front of your nose.

Leave it to a Tea Party hack to completely ignore the content of John "Sharp Tool" Boehner proposes...
 
1666Boldwin
      ID: 136431719
      Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 20:43
Well there must be plenty of talk you can link me to then. Everyone has critics and people who covet our position, but point this groundswell out then.
 
1667Boldwin
      ID: 136431719
      Sat, Jul 17, 2010, 20:46
Ok, I give. He and Cantor have decided to resist a move to overturn Obamacare. How dumb can he be?
 
1668Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 15:14
Its all about Obama.
 
1669Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 15:33
PD - remember, we're talking about an entire group of people who think like Baldwin does - they consider liars, criminals, and people who edit videos to make things appear as if they're not, to be heroes.

we're dealing with morally corrupt people who find lying to be a reason to worship.
 
1670Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Jul 21, 2010, 15:46
RNC treasurer says Steele hid $7 million in debt
 
1671Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 00:07
i'm surprosed there isn't more conversation about the Sherrod case.
 
1672Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 01:06
The guy who thinks Obama is a Muslim is the most normal sounding guy making comments...
 
1673Boldwin
      ID: 40648227
      Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 08:49
What I find more disturbing than the question of how many Sherrod's there might be out there in their pre-'road to Damascus' phase...

...or the reaction of the NAACP crowd before they realized the point of Sherrod's story, eating up the idea of her in power and withholding benefits...

...is the idea of a marxist government full of liberals like Tree taking all our money and redistributing it with hearts full of hatred for Americans as Tree demonstrates in #1669.
 
1674Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:16
For your first point, you don't have to guess. Just watch the video. About 21 minutes in is where she really starts making her point. The only thing you hear from the crowd are murmurs of support. But watch the whole thing. Don't openly wonder "Hey, wonder what the evidence that is a click away looks like?"

Meanwhile, the Right's "Gotcha Video Journalist" wasn't even trusted by everyone at FOX. Imagine that.
 
1675Boldwin
      ID: 25616229
      Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:20
A) I've already watched the video.

B) You guys have a lotta nerve asking American's for all their money and expecting to be believed when you say you can spend it more fairly than we can.

Especially when you hate the people you are robbing.
 
1676DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 10:57
You have a lotta nerve misrepresenting people's positions as often as you do after being specifically told that you're misrepresenting their positions.

Especially when you hate the people that you're doing it to.
 
1677Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 11:07
If you watched the video, then why would you ask your first point in #1673? You realize that the speech itself was at an NAACP function, yes?

You either watched the video (and therefore saw the reaction to the story) or you didn't and you are just slamming a reaction you never witnessed.
 
1678Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 11:31
is the idea of a marxist government full of liberals like Tree taking all our money and redistributing it with hearts full of hatred for Americans as Tree demonstrates in #1669.

although i have no hatred for america other than what's in your mind. but your hatred for those with brown skin is well documented here on this board.

Meanwhile, the Right's "Gotcha Video Journalist" wasn't even trusted by everyone at FOX. Imagine that.

i also think that somewhere on the 'net, Ed Morrisey posted (prior to the entire video being released) that if the Sherrod's story would have ended with her realizing her mistakes, it would have been a fantastic story of redemption.
 
1679The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 13:08
If the GOP cleans house in the fall the Democrats have nobody to blame but themselves. They inherited a mess. Nowhere to go but up. But then they blow it because they can't realize that they don't need the Republicans to pass anything. They got the numbers. Its all excuses. The Democrats don't want to move without the GOP because when their big idea fails they don't want their privates in the wind.
 
1680DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 13:10
"But then they blow it because they can't realize that they don't need the Republicans to pass anything."

Some light reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster
 
1681Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 16:20
But then they blow it because they can't realize that they don't need the Republicans to pass anything.

actually, they blew it because instead of forcing things through, they tried for a consensus and worked on bi-partisianship, instead of splitting this country further than the Right Wing already has.

granted, that was a mistake. it seems that nearly any democrat who gets elected is too nice, and they try to play well with others. i wish they would learn that you can't play nice with most on the Right, and instead of working with them to meet in the middle, they'd just taken their liberal agenda and shoved it down the throat of the Republicans.
 
1682The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:12
Yeah right they want to play well with others. More like a big fat CYA when their ideas fail.
 
1683Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:20
I think the House Democrats are pretty partisan, but the Senate and the President are very willing to engage the GOP, but it seems all the GOP wants to do is say, "Your ideas suck - use ours," which is not at all conducive to bipartisanship.
 
1684Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 14:06
I think Democrats are more than willing to see if their ideas fail or not. But the GOP is afraid of that--so afraid, that they have become the party of no, are trying to run on, essentially, George Bush policies, and have done what they can to provide cover to the Dems should the ideas fail.

The fact is: All bills benefit from having input on all sides. The GOP has made it a policy to refrain from such input, in the hopes that the policies will fail and that the voters will reward them for refusing to engage in problem-solving with the Democrats.
 
1685DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 14:46
"I think the House Democrats are pretty partisan, but the Senate and the President are very willing to engage the GOP, but it seems all the GOP wants to do is say, "Your ideas suck - use ours," which is not at all conducive to bipartisanship."

That's a pretty good read, I think.
 
1686Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 23:53
I agree with Razor, too. The charge that Congressional Dems engaged Republicans only for political cover from their own ideas that go bad is regurgitated politician speak that doesn't make very much sense. In point of fact it's been clear for some time that the Dems' preference for engagement with the minority party has been a big political loser for them, since touting the incorporation of some opposition ideas has protected Republicans from the entirely valid charge of blind obstruction, even in cases when they turned around to trash those very same ideas or shamelessly taken credit for programs which they publicly and often viciously opposed.

The fact that Congressional Republicans can't gather half the support from their ranks for any comprehensive alternative policies that they can for blind obstruction for everything on Obama's legislative agenda should be obvious and certainly ample evidence for an electorate that pays attention. Unfortunately, a well-informed electorate is not something we can honestly boast here in the USA.
 
1687Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 00:34
What could say "American patriotism" better than threatening to secede?
 
1688Boldwin
      ID: 1646258
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 09:48
Who were the loyal democrats back in '68? The ones who took over the party and turned into the socialist party or the ones who 'seceded' and became Reagan democrats?
 
1689Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 10:19
Back in the 60's again? I'd be interested in hearing your reaction to the actual story, rather than another refrain of "60's = bad."
 
1690Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 10:46
I have no idea why a political climate from over 40 years ago
is in any way relevent to the previous posts. I also have no
idea how bailing on a political party is comparable in any way
to secession (particulary with regard to the question of
patriotism).
 
1691Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 18:29
Why neoconservatism should scare the bejeezis out of every American who doesn't fantasize about perpetual war.

Interesting that the faux-libertarian direction the modern conservative movement finds itself steering toward doesn't seem to have infiltrated very much into the right's foreign policy mindset.
 
1692boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 10:58
Talk about grasping at straws you might as posted an article saying that westboro baptist church hates gay people there for it is Interesting that the faux-libertarian direction the modern conservative movement finds itself steering toward doesn't seem to have infiltrated very much into the right's love of hatred.
 
1693Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 12:31
What direction is the GOP taking now?

Steele To Hold RNC Event -- Co-Starring Andrew Breitbart
 
1694Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 13:47
Grasping at straws? I'm not citing the linked
article as evidence that neoconservatism remains the
dominant foreign policy ideology of the political right. It's a
personal observation, and I think a rather obvious one which
is quite easily supported if you really need that to be shown to
you.

Further, I wasn't being necessarily critical. I'm no fan of
libertarian foreign policy ideals, either (much less whatever
the modern right's wannabe-libertarianism movent's foreign
policy might likely look like).
 
1695Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Jul 29, 2010, 12:50
You either watched the video (and therefore saw the reaction to the story) or you didn't and you are just slamming a reaction you never witnessed.

no surprise Baldwin didn't respond to this.

however, Shirley Sherrod is certainly responding.

Sherrod to Sue Blogger Breitbart

good for her. someone needs to have the balls to stand up to the lying and unethical right wing media that so many self-proclaimed "moral" people back.
 
1696Boldwin
      ID: 426132914
      Thu, Jul 29, 2010, 15:15
no surprise Baldwin didn't respond to this.

...or anything Tree posts.

Why neoconservatism should scare the bejeezis out of every American who doesn't fantasize about perpetual war.

Interesting that the faux-libertarian direction the modern conservative movement finds itself steering toward doesn't seem to have infiltrated very much into the right's foreign policy mindset.
- MITH

The right has seemingly forever been hooked on the horns of the FF's injunction to avoid foreign entanglements and the other horn, a muscular stance towards tyrants. When you have the other guy leaning over the desk screaming that he will bury us, convert us or cut off our heads, that muscular defensive stance tends to go on the offensive.

The right isn't so much attracted to libertarianism as it is coopting libertarians who have fellow feelings towards the excessive federal over-reach beyond it's constitutional assignments.

The neo-con point however is well taken. They do indeed have hidden Trotskyite goals that they have not honestly laid out between the covers of
Commentary magazine, and these motivations are decidedly unchristian, such as telling deliberate 'noble lies', having an entire set of hidden esoteric beliefs, goals, motives...and indeed a thirst for perpetual war.

I would find it fascinating if you could locate a site that [rationally] reveals those esoteric elements in full. In years of reading Commentary I had just assumed that that densely written scholarly stuff was the esoteric stuff, but no...they had a whole 'nuther set of cards the weren't putting on the table.
 
1697Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Jul 29, 2010, 15:18
no surprise Baldwin didn't respond to this.

...or anything Tree posts.


i didn't post it. but thanks for playing.
 
1698Boldwin
      ID: 426132914
      Thu, Jul 29, 2010, 15:29
i didn't post it. but thanks for playing.

Yeah, you posted #1694 and then tried to claim victory when I didn't respond. So I dispatched that nonsense before dealing with MITH.

The last desperate tactic of the underfed energy creature. "He's run off beaten!"
 
1699DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Jul 29, 2010, 16:16
So do you want to promise that you haven't and never would use that sort of tactic?
 
1701Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Jul 29, 2010, 16:49
Yeah, you posted #1694

um, i didn't post that one either. but thanks for your continued enjoyment of the game.
 
1703Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Jul 29, 2010, 20:05
Mike Huckabee and guests bringin' the crazy!

Obama is forcing us to live in the end times and bringing us closer to the apocolypse!
 
1704sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Thu, Jul 29, 2010, 20:38
"Obama's raw socialism is bringing about the end times."

Odd, that isn't how the Bible portends the end times to be approaching. Is LaHaye claiming to have inside knowledge not found in God's word?

As for "are we living now in the end times", hasn't this claim been made, over and over and over again; for the past 150+ years? Golly, one of these centuries, the generations claiming that, will be right.


 
1705Boldwin
      ID: 296552920
      Thu, Jul 29, 2010, 21:57
I meant to say #1963.
 
1706Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Jul 29, 2010, 23:23
doesn't change the fact you never responded to PD's #1677...
 
1707Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Jul 30, 2010, 15:24
Anthony Weiner BLASTS the Republicans for their continued obstructionist tactics...

about damned time someone spoke up and said something. Maybe this will light a fire under the ass of the Democrats to get serious about making positive change.

are the Republicans REALLY against aid for 9/11 workers? REALLY?
 
1708Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jul 30, 2010, 15:36
I was just watching that. Pretty cool. The GOP claims that if it just came up as a regular bill that they would have voted for it, but previously they made very clear that they would reject any bill for new program spending which was not accompanied by a way to pay for it.

So the Dems are paying for the program by eliminating a tax loophole for businesses doing overseas work. The GOP claims this is a "tax increase" and so voted no. The bill failed, generally along party lines.

The Party of No chugs on...
 
1709Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Jul 31, 2010, 19:50
More on why neoconservatism should scare the bejeezis out of every American who doesn't fantasize about perpetual war.
 
1710Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Jul 31, 2010, 20:17
I don't believe we have anything resembling a "general tone in politics thread" so I'm sticking this here, acknowledgeing that Friedersdor's post (rightfully) runs down the left just as much as it does the right:
But if you spend time talking politics with people who identify as hard core progressives or movement conservatives, you'll find that a significant percentage believe their ideology would prevail more often if only their partisans were more angry, their attacks more pointed, their operatives more ruthless. This is most often expressed via the use of metaphors that draw on the language of war and fighting. Usually it doesn't make any sense. In war, the victor kills as many folks as possible on the opposing side. Political winners persuade more people to join their coalition.

When I reflect on the actions and words of people who subscribe to this mentality, I am often puzzled. Take the controversial comment made by a DC journalist about how his fellow progressives should react to the Jeremiah Wright story: by picking a conservative "like Fred Barnes or Karl Rove" and calling him a racist. In describing this tactic, he used an unexpected metaphor: "take a right-winger's [sic] and smash it through a plate-glass window." Of course, it's wrong to falsely accuse people of racism, and the plate glass window comment is intemperate, but let's forget about the ethics of it for a moment.

Say that the racism accusation had been levied. It makes no sense to believe that calling Fred Barnes a racist would stop the right from attacking Barack Obama over Jeremiah Wright, nor does it make sense to think the accusation would help progressives in any significant way. People like Al Sharpton have gotten notoriety from race-baiting, and even scored brief tactical victories, but overall does anyone think that kind of thing has advanced progressive policy ends? Does anyone think that comparing George W. Bush to Adolf Hitler in the run-up to the Iraq War made invasion less likely?

Is there any instance in the history of American politics when aggressively virulent rhetoric from the left has resulted in a big policy win? Does anyone think that people like Michael Moore help the left rather than hurt it?

The "battles" waged by the conservative movement's polemicists make as little sense to me. Take a guy like Andrew Breitbart. Even in the course of criticizing him for publishing an edited video that misled his audience about Shirley Sherrod, a lot of conservative writers were insistent that he is "on the side of the angels," that his style of rhetoric has proved invaluable in the past, and that "we're lucky he's on our side."

This doesn't make sense. Conservatives are ostensibly concerned about the federalization of health care, the deficit, the size of the federal government, the erosion of federalism, etc. As someone who shares these concerns, I am painfully attune to how difficult it's going to be to address them.

Apparently it is emotionally satisfying for some folks on the right to force ACORN to reorganize, plumb the alleged racism of an obscure USDA official, expose the fact that some census workers were paid for their lunch breaks, etc. I can't help but think that these are all insignificant distractions that won't make the slightest difference when it comes to accomplishing anything that conservatives actually care about -- the conservative movement is asserting goals that require a decade long project, and they're elevating as their champions people who specialize in generating page views, winning individual news cycles, and selling books.
Too bad he left the Swift Vets off his list of rare instances when these tactics have worked.
 
1711Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 02, 2010, 18:15
The Modern GOP: For cuts in the budget except when they are against them for their own district's sake.

"Everything is on the table..." Ha!
 
1712Boldwin
      ID: 42739217
      Mon, Aug 02, 2010, 18:49
What he leaves out is that progressives win elections by pretending to be conservative and reasonable, while conservatives get elected by sticking to principles. Democrat-lite republicans never get elected except in the bluest of states.

Progressives on the far left acting out serve to give excuse for faux-centrist/faux-conservative Dems to do what they really want to do while appearing forced into it.
 
1713Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 02, 2010, 22:00
What principles are those? To say anything to win elections? To abandon political philosophy in the name of talking points?

 
1714Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Aug 03, 2010, 00:54
you left out "lying", "misleading", and "doctoring video tapes", all of which have been condoned by the poster from Illinois.
 
1715Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 03, 2010, 02:33
For some on the Far Right, perhaps. I think the GOP leaders, however, are guilty of the things I point out in #1713.
 
1716Boldwin
      ID: 2273335
      Tue, Aug 03, 2010, 06:33
We all believe the other side is dishonest, but are we going to adopt the policy that trolls get to sling around that charge and real posters can't?

Or can we just get back to everyone telling it like it is?
 
1717Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Aug 03, 2010, 09:44
We all believe the other side is dishonest, but are we going to adopt the policy that trolls get to sling around that charge

i'm calling it like it is.

you not only refused to condemn the actions of James O’Keefe and Hannah Giles, you condoned them and went as far to praise them, despite the fact that the videos were heavily edited and proved to be nothing more than a lie.

and then you refused to condemn Andrew Breitbert doctored video of the Shirley Sherrod incident, and completely ignored PD's #1677 several times, despite given numerous opportunities.

if i were lying about your actions, then fine, you'd have an argument, and i'd be in the wrong.

but the simple fact of that matter is that you have repeatedly condoned and praised dishonest actions and outright lies for no other reason than they follow your line of political thinking.
 
1718DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, Aug 03, 2010, 10:53
"We all believe the other side is dishonest"

Not all of them. Not even a majority of them. A very vocal and annoying minority, perhaps. There's plenty of principled conservatives who are willing to work within the framework of reality to make their points. There's a lot of stuff in the world that actually admits of multiple interpretations. I respect them even if I disagree with them on a lot of points, but they don't start with the framework of "the sky is red and the liberals want to kill your children and if you don't believe it you're going to Hell". Those people, I have no respect for.

If you want to make a cogent argument for why a lower tax rate will stimulate the economy more, after looking at both sides of the argument, great, let's go. If you just want to say that because a mouthpiece said so and it sounds cool and who doesn't like to have more maniez, then you'll be treated with the lack of respect you deserve.

I think the world (and not incidentally, this message board) would be a better place if you didn't come into it with the attitude that everyone from the other side is dishonest.

Now, if someone repeatedly displays dishonesty (by, say, repeating things that aren't true even after they've been demonstrated to not be true, or just making stuff up about what "the other side" believes even after they very specifically tell you that isn't what they believe at all), then yes, it's fair to call that individual person dishonest.

But if you're coming into the world thinking that all liberals are dishonest, then I really think that in all sincerity you need to seek psychiatric help.
 
1719boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Aug 03, 2010, 11:18
"We all believe the other side is dishonest"

don't you mean both?
 
1720Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 03, 2010, 13:33
I think he meant "we each believe the other side is dishonest." At least, that's how I read it.
 
1721Boldwin
      ID: 1173849
      Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 10:54
Tree

If you think you are going to slide away from every sin by pointing out edits you have another thing coming. Acorn was ABUNDANTLY proven to be beyond the pale in it's enabling of illegal activity and no amount of appeals to edits can expunge the record there. Sherrod wasn't taken out of context either.
 
1722tree on the evo
      ID: 4251457
      Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 13:49
I'll let your own silly statement about sherrod stand on its
own, only to say that if you don't think it was taken out of
context, you have no concept of what context is.
 
1723Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 14:13
Sherrod wasn't taken out of context either.

Hahaha. This is genuinely funny. Like a flatearther continuing to insist that he cannot see the curve of the earth so it just doesn't curve.

Of course it was taken out of context. Even the guy who first "exposed" the video says he wouldn't have run the thing it he'd received the whole thing (i.e., in-context) in the first place.
 
1724Boldwin
      ID: 4730413
      Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 14:40
No he didn't. He said he wasn't trying to get her fired.
 
1725Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 15:52
No he didn't. He said he wasn't trying to get her fired.

no, he was trying to brand her as a racist.

and looking at some of your posts, i see that you said "Illegal sin is what i really want to do."

i mean, you didn't really say that, but you used all those words, and i just strung them together out of order.

imagine if you gave a speech saying "there wasa guy i knew, and once he said 'man, i hate black people.' He then found Christ, and then accepted all men to be equal."

but someone ONLY aired the part of the speech where you said "man, i hate black people."

that's what happened to Sherrod. and you are praising those tactics.
 
1726Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 19:15
When he was furiously backtracking he said she was never really the target. Which is an odd thing to say, because he posted the video specifically to make her a target.

Whether he was trying to get her fired was never the point (my own opinion was he was hoping, as all conservatives were, that she would continue on in order for them to continue to batter the conservative meme-of-the-day).
 
1727Boldwin
      ID: 26750418
      Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 19:53
I think she is getting lionized quite enuff for, after abusing her power to discriminate against whites long enuff, deciding what she was really hated was rich people.

But the guy who resurrected that clip was really focussing on was that the NCAAP crowd was delighted half-way thru her epipheny story, when they thot the point of the story was one of their own in power sticking it to white people.

Editting had nothing to do with that. They were eating it up with a spoon.
 
1728Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 21:03
When you get around to actually watching the video, I think you'll be embarrassed that you tried to make that point.

Her story is one of transformation--from realizing she was discriminating, to doing something about it, to teaching others the corrosiveness that racism does even for blacks.

If this woman were Republican you wouldn't change a word of hers but hail her courage as a "post-racial example." But because she isn't she is to be demonized, it seems. Lesson lost.
 
1729tree on the evo
      ID: 4251457
      Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 21:35
Lol.....I think its great youve formed
opinions on a video you haven't
watched....lol
 
1730Boldwin
      ID: 4071153
      Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 04:24
Have you guys actually heard the life story of her and her husband?

1.

They've been race hustlers from day one. These guys never did stop hating whitey.

 
1731Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 10:16
The out-of-context edit is the go to play in the hard-right's ("the base's") book.

From out-of-context excerpts from Islamic texts to support the idea of Islam as a bloodthirsty and imperialistic culture, to out-of-context statements from John Kerry's congressional testimony on the Winter Soldier meeting, to out-of-context excerpts from a chapter in President Obama's book about his ideological maturing from his wayward college years, to Sherrod.

This was a terrific one. Glenn Beck's radio show 6//14:
[Discussion on why Obama hadn't met in person with BP's CEO to that point and Obama's statement that speaking to to Hayward would just result in lip service]

I'm waiting for the red phone at FOX to ring right now. It's not over here. I'm so used to just waiting for the phone to ring. What is it about that? Now, is it oil, because you don't have any oil experience. Did you work at a gas station, because maybe you could come out and say, Hey, all gas station owners are alike in your experience, if you've worked at a gas station, or is it the fact that he's a white executive? Maybe your problem is that he's a white CEO that maybe lives out in the suburbs and doesn't want to pay taxes, you know, for any inner city children. That's such an outrageous right now Huffington Post right now, as they're writing this down, I can't believe Glenn Beck said that. You're right. I shouldn't have said that. Let me just let the President make that accusation.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: And I really want to emphasize the word responsibility. I think whether you are a white executive living out in the suburbs who doesn't want to pay taxes to inner city children

GLENN: Oh, okay. All right. So, maybe that's the problem. Maybe the problem the President has with the BP executive, that he last week didn't want to meet with because he had all the information he needed, he wasn't interested in words, but this week he's going to meet with him and I'm trying to figure out what changed. Did he find out that not all white executives that live out in the suburbs don't want to pay their taxes to go to inner city children, which I believe is code language, isn't it? Is that code language, Mr. President? I thought we weren't supposed to use code language. A white executive that doesn't want their tax dollars to go to inner city children. Sounds like code language. It sounds like racism. It sounds like stereotyping. It sounds like profiling which I didn't think we were supposed to do. Isn't that your problem in Arizona? Your problem with the Arizona law is you're profiling, they can stop you just for looking Hispanic. That's what you claim, Mr. President, are you profiling this executive, just because he looks like a CEO, because he looks like a white CEO, because he looks like an oil company CEO? I'm not sure what you're profiling, but there seems to be a little profiling going on here.
Of course, the audio excerpt Beck played, seeimgly of Obama characterizing white suburban CEOs as heartless (and according to Beck, racist code) was a cropped excerpt from a 15 year old interview:
Obama: ... and I think that is going to be happening. We can’t ignore it. I think whether or not my children or your children will have to struggle with these same issues depends on what we do, and whether we take some mutual responsibility for bridging the divisions that exist right now. And I really want to emphasize the word “responsibility.” I think that whether you are a white executive living out in the suburbs, who doesn’t want to pay taxes to inner-city children for them to go to school, or you’re an inner-city child who doesn’t want to take responsibility for keeping your street safe and clean, both of those groups have to take some responsibility if we’re going to get beyond the kinds of divisions that we face right now.
Not quite the same as what Glenn would have you believe, is it?

Beck used the same cropped excerpt to suppport the same bogus claims on his FNC show that day as well.
 
1732Boldwin
      ID: 2974958
      Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 10:25
How does the context there disprove that Obama stereotypes executives?
 
1733DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 10:33
You're missing the point completely.
 
1734Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 10:34
There is lkely no more frequently occurring discrepency in this forum than your flipflopping on whether it is reasonable to demand proof of a negative or not.

The context fails to prove that he stereotypes executives just as it fails to prove that he stereotypes inner-city children. He used examples of people at opposite ends of the economic and ideological spectrum and said both would have to accept personal responsibility if the social divide can be bridged.
 
1735Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Aug 05, 2010, 15:55
They've been race hustlers from day one. These guys never did stop hating whitey.

says the guy who seems to have it out for anyone with skin darker than his.

meanwhile, you'll believe any random video from youtube as long as it paints a hispanic or african-american in a negative light.
 
1736Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 06, 2010, 13:43
Sharron Angle doesn't appear to see any difference between her church and State.
 
1737Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Fri, Aug 06, 2010, 17:32
I haven't heard many of Ms. Angle's speeches, but what I have heard it would be easy to declare that she would be the absolute dumbest US Senator, bar none. It's not just that I think she is a wing nut, she SOUNDS over medicated and under educated. WOW!
 
1738Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Fri, Aug 06, 2010, 18:49
Ignorance is strength.
 
1739DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Fri, Aug 06, 2010, 19:01
Remember, if you know stuff, it's because you're an elitist, and that's like bad or something.
 
1740Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Fri, Aug 06, 2010, 20:30
1735 is untrue and uncalled for. Not to mention
embarassingly self-hypocricizing.
 
1741Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 07, 2010, 21:03
Newt Gingrich: Ignorance is strength.
 
1742Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 11:34
More Newt News: One of his former wives reveals his deeply cynical core.

Sullivan's last paragraph really nails it:

This notion that the elite's responsibility is to preach values they do not believe in and do not practice is not the same as failing to live up to norms we all aspire to. It is not simply being human; it is cynicism. You see it in the neoconservative flattery of crude religious faith they quietly feel alienated from - and then the bashing of "liberals" for being more honest about it. Everyone who fails to live up to ideals deserves support. Those who lie about the ideals they actually hold, and use that as a cynical bludgeon in political warfare deserve no such thing.

The Right used to call those kind of people who were Democrats "Limousine Liberals." What do they call those of their own party? "Leaders."
 
1743Boldwin
      ID: 477201118
      Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 19:55
For the record that is the only reason Newt didn't reach his full potential. He could have been the successor to Reagan. He had all the tools. All of them, and it's really a toss-up which one was more effective in rescuing this country for a few extra decades of lifespan.
 
1744Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Aug 11, 2010, 21:46
I think Newt also had a hard time running away from his "back row bombthrower" reputation as well, which he developed when he first got to the House. It got him to the top but them held him back quite a bit in the end, I think.
 
1745Boldwin
      ID: 587221121
      Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 04:35
He had no more reason to run away from that than Reagan had any reason to run away from the 'cowboy' image deluded liberals thot was such a problem for him.
 
1746The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 12:58
Oh no! Not a deeply cynical core? Anything but that! I'll take it compared to some of the other things Congressmen are guilty of. For the record that is the only reason Newt didn't reach his full potential. He could have been the successor to Reagan. Almost like the LeBron James of the Republican Party. He could've been Jordan but wanted to settle for James Worthy.

I think Newt also had a hard time running away from his "back row bombthrower" reputation as well, which he developed when he first got to the House. It got him to the top but them held him back quite a bit in the end, I think.

Not with me. When the choice is shoot your wife or shoot your child, somebody needs to stand up and pick door number three.
 
1747Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 13:13
Newt has always found his style to be far better suited to being an aggrieved member of the minority party than a leader in the majority.
 
1748The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 13:23
I would have liked to have seen Gingrich instead of Bush Jr. Yeah I know. You Democrats would have liked to have seen anybody but Bush Jr. Funny.
 
1749Boldwin
      ID: 377491211
      Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 14:08
PD

Just give up entirely trying to imagine how Newt is perceived by his base. You truly haven't a clue.
 
1750Boldwin
      ID: 377491211
      Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 14:15
FYI Newt is given a more respectful reception by conservatives and party insiders alike, than anyone I can think of. Better than Dick Armey, better than Boehner, better than McCain...without him conservatism might never have toppled the Dem monopoly on the House speaker chair and every Republican who knows anything reveres him for it. The fact that he is a brilliant historian and analyst and strategist going forward is just icing on an incredibly rich gift of a man. But he's imperfect...him and everyone else.
 
1752Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 13:15
The Direction of the GOP:



Nothing new; creating and exploiting fear as a political tool.
 
1753Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 13:18
#1749: I know exactly how Newt is perceived by his base--in fact, it all goes to my point, which is that he's hypocrite being held as a "leader" by a sociopathic political party. If he wasn't held in some esteem by the GOP as holding some moral and ethical value, Newt would be moot.

Meanwhile, the GOP pundit army goes lying for dollars.
 
1754Boldwin
      ID: 257491318
      Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 19:56
He's held in high esteme for his political intelligence, not his moral IQ. You just cannot take the first away from him nor should anyone deprive themself of that resource.
 
1755Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 19:58
I could say the exact same thing about Bill Clinton.
 
1756Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Aug 15, 2010, 18:06
New picture of John McCain on election night released...
 
1757Nuclear Gophers
      ID: 7115138
      Sun, Aug 15, 2010, 20:48
And this has what to do with the direction of the GOP?
 
1758Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Aug 15, 2010, 20:50
Lighten up, Frances.
 
1759The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 13:55
Awesome Perm Dude. Just admit that you got that from me when I was talking about you know who. ;)
 
1760Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 16, 2010, 14:04
:)
 
1761Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 14:25
Selective outrage much?
Dec. 21, 2009: Conservative media personality Laura Ingraham interviews Abdul Rauf's wife, Daisy Khan, while guest-hosting "The O'Reilly Factor" on Fox. In hindsight, the segment is remarkable for its cordiality. "I can't find many people who really have a problem with it," Ingraham says of the Cordoba project, adding at the end of the interview, "I like what you're trying to do."
(This segment also includes onscreen the first use that we've seen of the misnomer "ground zero mosque.") After the segment — and despite the front-page Times story — there were no news articles on the mosque for five and a half months, according to a search of the Nexis newspaper archive.

Now skip ahead to about the 5:00 mark to see her attacking just like all the other sharks in the opportunist frenzy:



This is conservatism? Where smelling blood in the political water is a fair enough excuse to disregard our tradition and code of religious freedom? Even when you're on record in favor of the pro-religious-freedom side of the very same issue just months before?
 
1762Coach Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 14:45
What office does Laura Ingraham hold with the GOP?
 
1763Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 14:47
Loudmouth media pundit and political fire-whipper-upper.
 
1764Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 14:52
Jon Stewart confirms the trend.

The Daily Show With Jon StewartMon - Thurs 11p / 10c
Mosque-Erade
www.thedailyshow.com
Daily Show Full EpisodesPolitical HumorTea Party
 
1765Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 15:02
What office does Laura Ingraham hold with the GOP?


Shes a mid-level Maleable Reason Coordinator. Her office is in the super-ego department.
 
1766Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 15:44
two years old, but may answer MITH's questions in 1761....

from Psychology Today..
 
1767Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 16:02
The Cordoba project opposition we see isn't any politically conservative ideal. It's that of a hate-peddling and shamelessly opportunistic dopleganger who has assumed the public role.
 
1768Coach Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 16:23
I'd go with Mayor of Spin.

But, she's a dopleganger with good ratings.

I don't think this NY mosque thing is R vs. D.
Some R's are for it, some D's are against it. Overall, 65% are against it. I think its more War on Terror Kool-aid drinkers vs. others. They are so blinded by trying to get even for 911, that they don't realize they are penalizing the wrong people. None of the prospective worshippers had anything to do with ground zero. They don't know anybody that did have something to do with grond zero. What does hijacking planes have to do with religion? What does ground zero have to do with religion? What religion was Terry Nichols?
 
1769Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 16:43
Good points. Many seem to be worshiping their own talking points.
 
1770Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 16:54
R vs. D

It's a Republican wedge issue, and a particularly disingenuous one for most of them, not to mention utterly pointless from a policy stand point. Well, except for Carl Paladino, GOP nominee for governor of NYS, who vows use eminent domain to prevent construction.

And I don't know of any Republican politicians who don't oppose it. I'd be very surprised to learn of any in election this year in support or even just refusing to comment. OK Rand and Ron Paul maybe, but I'd be surprised to leard of any others.
 
1771Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 19:38
Timeline of the fear mongering

I remember late last year when this came up a couple of times here and there. No controversy at all, really. Until some GOP "leaders" (led, as usual, by Sarah Palin) decided their hallowed talking points were more important than their commitment to the Constitution.
 
1772DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Aug 17, 2010, 21:29
To be fair, for many of them, cleaning off a little jacket lint is more important than their commitment to the Constitution.
 
1773Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 02:38
I think that the Muslim American community didnft ask to be included in Park51Œs project, but we have been dragged into it forcibly. In some ways it would be a relief if the issue went away. However, if they do decide to move, then I think that the message that will be sent is that bigotry and fear of Muslims is not just permitted, it is effective. This may result in short term relief for Muslim Americans, but surely longer term pain. To be honest I donft know what I prefer in that regard.

It should be noted that if they did decide to move, then Republicans would claim victory, but would also be denied the issuefs urgency and impact in November. I suspect that a great many strategists are secretly ecstatic that Park51 is sticking to its guns. Thatfs another reason I personally am now ambivalent about the outcome. The main reason, however, is that I am not exactly pleased with Park51Œs mishandling of the entire affair. Their PR has been incompetent (especially on Twitter) and the entire controversy might well have been avoided if they had shown a little restraint instead of trumpeting the proximity to Ground Zero at the outset. Also, the total absence of Feisal Rauf has a gWherefs Waldoh quality that is maddening in itself. Ifm quite capable of defending Rauf against some of the accusations against him, but am not inclined to carry his water for him while he gallivants about the globe.

If the project is going to fail, maybe it is better it fail now than later. Certainly the Muslim American community will take a hit either way. If I sound cynical itfs only because I think that therefs a failure of leadership here and that has done as much damage to Muslim American aspirations as the most committed Islamophobes profiting from exploiting 9-11 passions.

Still, I subscribe to the view that the centerfs existence would be a powerful symbol and repudiation of the ideology of Al Qaeda. So despite my misgivings about the cost to the Muslim American community, on a broader scale, I think it is good for America that the project succeed. This is why I still count myself a supporter of Park51.
 
1774Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 10:44
Karl Rove Concerned About Republican Rhetoric on Mosque near Ground
 
1775Boldwin
      ID: 11746189
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 11:00
The director of a Dubai-based, Arab television network writes that most of the world's Muslims couldn't care less about building a mosque near Ground Zero and that plans to do so would only create a "monument" to terrorists.

Abd Al-Rahman Al-Rashed, director-general of Al-Arabiya TV, wrote a column in the Aug. 16, 2010, London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat arguing that President Obama was wasting his time championing construction of the proposed mosque, which Al-Rashed says the majority of world's Muslims don't want anyway.

"I can't imagine that Muslims [actually] want a mosque at this particular location, because it will become an arena for the promoters of hatred, and a monument to those who committed the crime," writes Al-Rashed in the column, which was translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute. "Moreover, there are no practicing Muslims in the area who need a place to worship, because it is a commercial district. Is there anyone who is [really] eager [to build] this mosque?"

He adds, "I do not think that the majority of Muslims want to build a monument or a place of worship that tomorrow may become a source of pride for the terrorists and their Muslim followers, nor do they want a mosque that will become a shrine for the haters of Islam."

New York Islamic leader Faisal Abdul Rauf, president of the Cordoba Initiative, is leading the plan to build a proposed 13-story, $100 million Islamic cultural center and mosque near the corner of Park Place and West Broadway – about two blocks from the site of the 9-11 terrorist attacks.

Al-Rashed, whose network competes with the more extremist-friendly Al Jazeera TV, condemns Rauf's plan.

"The individual who submitted the building application – I do not know whether he [really] wants [to build] a mosque that will promote reconciliation, or whether he is [just] an investor looking for quick profits. Because the idea of a mosque right next to a site of destruction is not at all an intelligent one," Al-Rashed writes. "The last thing Muslims want today is to build a religious center that provokes others, or a symbolic mosque that people will visit as a [kind of] museum next to a cemetery."

President Obama has released a pair of statements in regards to the planned mosque, qualifying support for the religious freedom of Muslims to build the mosque – even in the shadow that was once cast by the World Trade Center – with a hint that the location of the proposed construction may not be the wisest choice.

Al-Rashed's column addresses the president's comments as well:

"U.S. President Barack Obama took a difficult position when he supported the construction of a mosque on a site where 3,000 U.S. citizens were killed by Al-Qaeda terrorists on Sept. 11, 2001," Al-Rashed writes. "Though the president's position was correct in principle, that is, in terms of the principle of freedom of worship, I think he took a political stand [on an issue] that is unnecessary and unimportant, even for the Muslims. This mosque is not an issue for Muslims, and they do not care about its construction."
This project is only important to that minority of muslims who wish to drag the majority of the world's muslims into the islamist plan to militarily intimidate and conquer the world.

 
1776Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 11:03
They are already there, Baldwin.

...he supported the construction of a mosque on a site...

This simply isn't true. But it continues the trend on the Right to the hostility to truth.
 
1777Boldwin
      ID: 11746189
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 11:09
For the record I also oppose the opening of the new muslim gay bar, "Suspicious Packages".
 
1778Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 11:09
This project is only important to that minority of muslims who wish to drag the majority of the world's muslims into the islamist plan to militarily intimidate and conquer the world.

good lord. hyperbole much?

meanwhile, Baldwin continues to ignore the existence of Christian terrorists, and refuses to discuss their presence.
 
1779Boldwin
      ID: 11746189
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 11:18
To be more accurate he supported it before he backed away from having a position.

I think it's a diversion from the main issue. What is really going on is the islamists think they have found a crack in the American system to wedge a crowbar and start wrecking. They think they have found a damned if you do/damned if you don't no-win problem for us. They are all about using our laws against us.

A sidebar you guys aren't aware of is that my religion gets the run-around many times when we try and build an assembly hall. We sometimes do not get to build on land we own which we feel is perfectly situated and defenders of the constitution are not coming out of the woodwork of those communities to defend our 'right' to build anywhere we want. All kinds of projects of all kinds get the red-tape government run-around and micro-management.
 
1780Boldwin
      ID: 11746189
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 11:23
I'll discus the terrorist trying to blow up this forum if PD will let me.
 
1781DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 11:40
"A sidebar you guys aren't aware of is that my religion gets the run-around many times when we try and build an assembly hall. We sometimes do not get to build on land we own which we feel is perfectly situated and defenders of the constitution are not coming out of the woodwork of those communities to defend our 'right' to build anywhere we want. All kinds of projects of all kinds get the red-tape government run-around and micro-management."

Is it properly zoned and meets the building requirements? If so, then I'll support your right to do it. And you ought to sympathize a lot more with the Muslims in this case, having had the same experiences.

Further, if the people opposing the mosque want to do so on the basis that the plans don't meet front-yard setback requirements or parking minimums or whatever, that's actually completely legitimate.

Of course, given that's what happening here is that about 98% of the people opposing it are doing it on the grounds of "we don't want no dirty stinking Muslims near us, because they remind us of the people who are actually bad and we can't handle it" and would happily support an identically-built church or maybe a synagogue in the same location, what you're bringing up is likely irrelevant.
 
1782Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 12:14
A sidebar you guys aren't aware of..

Why is it necessary to strip the users of this forum of their individuality by constant references to "you guys?"

Are you aware of the run around and hate-filled opposition the LDS Church faces when it announces plans to build a Mormon temple in some areas? I am, so please don't lump me into your "you guys" presumptions.

Similarly, when you claim to know what "islamists"(not capitalized?) think and what they're all about, you strip all Muslims of their individuality by grouping the entire religion into persons who have found a crack in the American system to wedge a crowbar and start wrecking.

 
1783DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 12:20
Numerous studies have shown that it's much easier to hate when it's a faceless group and not, you know, actual people.
 
1784Boldwin
      ID: 11746189
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 12:26
How do "you guys" read the sentence...

"This project is only important to that minority of muslims who wish to drag the majority of the world's muslims into..."

...and then accuse me of lumping them all together?
 
1785DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 12:28
We've had this discussion about ten times in the past. It's plainly obvious by now that, either out of laziness or malice, you fail to make any distinction between the various posters here and their obviously different thought patterns on this sort of thing. Further, you completely missed the point of PV's post.

 
1786Boldwin
      ID: 11746189
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 12:34
For the record context should be considered, because ordinarily B7 and LB would not be part of "you guys", unless we're talking fantasy sports.

Not too many others here rightfully escape the category "you guys" because "you guys" just haven't retained enuff shared values to be one of "us guys".

Maybe Nerve and MBJ. PV is unusually independent at least that he escapes the umbrella from time to time.
 
1787Boldwin
      ID: 11746189
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 12:41
PV

Why would it be inappropriate for a Mormon to describe the rest of us as "you guys" when informing us of LDS experiences? Since we're not "those guys".
 
1788Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 13:21
I'll discus the terrorist trying to blow up this forum if PD will let me.

that's your problem. you're such an elitist, you think you're always right. and in the face of being undeniably wrong, you accuse the person pointing out your errors of first being a troll, and then, being a terrorist.

a terrorist. lol. outstanding.

i'll let your lack of real comments, and your desire to insult, speak for themselves. i'm dropping the discussion of that particular issue here, with the proof existing that you're as wrong about that as you are about most other things, which falls into the realm of "very wrong".
 
1789Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 15:34
I think the objective reader will see the folly of trusting a
foreigner to speak for Muslim Americans. Why in the world
should anyone care what he has to say. He clearly knows
less of what he speaks than he (or Boldy, I'm sure) thinks
when he says no Muslims live there because it is a
commercial district.

Why should I give this guys opinion any more credibilty than
Americans who live and work there?

But I guess you shouldn't expect much better from the guy
who presents a 22 year old video to prove the rabidity of the
modern leftist media.
 
1790Pancho Villa
      ID: 29118157
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 18:22
Why would it be inappropriate for a Mormon to describe the rest of us as "you guys" when informing us of LDS experiences? Since we're not "those guys".

It's inappropriate because you're saying that "you guys" are not aware(read ignorant or at least insensitive) to conditions that "us guys" could very well be aware of. If you said I was unaware of LDS goings on within a Mormon temple, you'd be right, since I'm only allowed inside a temple when they first open to the public for a couple weeks. After that, any info I have is second hand via acquaintances that have or hold a temple recommend.

But I'm acutely aware of how many people have a predetermined negativity to Mormons. My girlfriend of 8 years comes from a very devout LDS family(her father is a former bishop)and whenever we travel outside of state, we're constantly under seige with questions and comments about Mormons as soon as we tell people where we live. That's usually in a bar when we're enjoying a cocktail, so they automatically assume we're not Mormon. That's true of me, but she is a lifelong Mormon, albeit a Jack Mormon, since she likes to drink occasionally and has sex outside of marriage(allegedly).
After 25 years in Utah, I may not be one of "those guys," but neither am I one of "you guys" who is not aware of religious intolerance.
 
1791Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 18:34
The GOP - again showing why style is more important than substance, why sizzle is more important than steak, and all while setting back the women's equality movement.

kudos GOP, kudos.
 
1792Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Aug 18, 2010, 19:51
Imam at center of Ground Zero controversy helped Bush administration

One of the tactics of mosque opponents has been to vaguely accuse the imam behind the project of having "radical ties" — a charge that's been floated by Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, and New York gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio, among others — while also casting aspersions on the project's funding. (A spokesman for the project said through Twitter that the center's backers have not yet begun fundraising.)

But such characterizations don't square with the project's mission — or the career of its spiritual leader, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. (Rauf heads up the Cordoba Initiative, the organization sponsoring the center.) Rauf was considered moderate enough during the Bush years to lecture FBI agents about Islam. And he is targeted on theological grounds by the same militant Islamists that mosque opponents claim he represents.
 
1793Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 18:17
Black conservatives rail against Sarah Palin's repeated support for Schlessinger's rant, in which she used the n-word 11 times.

Seriously, why does the GOP, every year more deperate to recruit minorites, so often say these ridiculous things which any dolt knows the very minorities they seek to recruit will find offensive?
 
1794Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 19:57
you really have to ask why?
 
1795Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 20:38
I do. Particularly since I'm more interested in a GOP-supporting conservative's take than an undiscerning accusation of racism from the left, if that's what you were thinking.
 
1796Boldwin
      ID: 117152019
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 21:01
Anyone who has looked at this knows Schelessinger wasn't being racist and isn't a racist. Tone-deaf and blundering but not racist.

There is no point in wooing Al Sharpton's base of support or worrying about their latest 'minute-of-hate'.

The only way to woo the wooable is with principles and a reliable commitment to principles that work for everyone. The neocon 'compassionate conservatism' was a non-starter. Republicans never win by being Dem-lite and they certainly don't win by listening to and following the advice of the PD's and Al Sharpton's of the world.
 
1797Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 21:14
I don't know who's "wooing" or who the "wooable" are or what Perm Dude, Al Sharpton, neoconservatism and Bush's 2000 campaign slogan have to do with the previous three posts but, uh, sure.

Anything to offer on why all these Republicans keep saying really stupid racially insensitive (or at least terribly clumsy) things so much more frequently than Democrats?
 
1798Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 21:18
For my part, I have been encouraging the GOP to side with the Baldwins of the country for some time. The smaller they make that tent, the easier they will be to dismiss from the conversation.

Loudmouths who know the proper place of neither religion nor politics in this country deserve the marginalization their own policies require.
 
1799Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 21:47
Since I can't resist... for the record, George W Bush did in fact win - the office of the President of the United States - on the very platform which you claim Republicans never win on.

But that has nothing to do with my question about why so many of them get themselves into trouble with this stuff. It's not like there was the 'macaca moment' in 2008 and just one or two instances since then, or like there is a list nearly as long of Dems saying the same types of things.

There's video linked in this thread of a sitting US Rep declaring that the GOP needs a "great white hope" to challenge President Obama!

Let me head you off and note that I'm not accusing her of racism, either. But there has to be a reason for why that party has something like this pop up seemingly every couple of months.

You only need to look as far as the joke they keep in the RNC chairman's office to see how desperate they are to appeal to minority voters.

So why are they unable to go half a year without insulting them? Even the most "wooable" among them probably get pretty pissed off when the most powerful man in the GOP quips that "for the first time in his life, Paterson is gonna be a massa" when he chooses Rep. Eric Massa's replacement.
 
1800Boldwin
      ID: 117152019
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 21:57
Anything to offer on why all these Republicans keep saying really stupid racially insensitive (or at least terribly clumsy) things so much more frequently than Democrats?

Duh, because they aren't PC, aren't trying to be PC, don't care what the PC think say or do.
 
1801Boldwin
      ID: 117152019
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 22:04
And because when the PC do racially insensitive and/or tonedeaf, whether it's Jesse Jackson's Haimetown or Reid's...
"He [Reid] was wowed by Obama's oratorical gifts and believed that the country was ready to embrace a black presidential candidate, especially one such as Obama -- a 'light-skinned' African American 'with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one,' " Halperin and Heilemann say.
...the MSM and you develop amnesia.

 
1802Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 22:29
Do you really not know what "great white hope" means? Is your anti-PC bias so strong that you have turned anti-intellectual as a result?
 
1803Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 22:40
No one has claimed that there aren't occasionally similar examples from Dems. And of course I specifically had Reid in mind as I stressed the difference in frequency, which is undenyable.

Further, even though I'm not an ethnic minority, I'm pretty sure I'm clued in enough that I know a compliment from a political ally which came out sounding bad isn't quite the same thing as mailing out a photo of a watermelon field planted on the White House lawn.

Q: why all these Republicans keep saying really stupid racially insensitive (or at least terribly clumsy) things?

A: they aren't PC, aren't trying to be PC, don't care what the PC think say or do...


So they willfully put themselves at a disadvantage by disavowing stupidity-precluding political correctness?

That's a bit convoluted even for you. I tend to think that inserting an image of "obama bucks" complete with images of fried chicken, ribs and watermelons into a GOP mailer had to do with something other than a stand against political correctness. Same goes with the the SC GOP operatives noted in #s 406 and 411. Or the TN GOP staffer and former Dick Cheney aid who emailed the photo in this link to a much larger recipient list than intended. Can you call it an anti-PC stand when the intended recipients were only people you thought wouldn't be offended in the first place?

No, the PC excuse doesn't quite cut it. Nor does the attempt to portray Dems as with the same tendency; the record just isn't there. Any other ideas? Anyone else?
 
1804Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 22:50
Duh, because they aren't PC, aren't trying to be PC, don't care what the PC think say or do.

Thinking more, this might be one of the stupidest things you've typed into this forum. The only way this works as a defense is if you subscribe to the notion that the only thing keeping casual use of racial epithets out of the common vernacular is political correctness, the lamentation of which can really only suggest you'd prefer a society where Schelessinger drops 11 n-bombs every show and everyone loves her for it.

Since I don't think you're that far gone, I'll suggest you rethink that one.
 
1805Frick
      ID: 97321912
      Fri, Aug 20, 2010, 23:48
I wonder if they don't think it is racist? They think something like Obama and watermellons is a fact and so it isn't racist to point it out. They could see racism as overt physical actions, since they don't lynch people anymore, they aren't racist. Calling someone fat when they are fat isn't wrong (in a factual sense) but it is mean.

There is also chance that she wanted to point out the double standard that exists where she can't say the n-word while someone like Al Sharpton can. I doubt it though.
 
1806Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 02:03
Frick, I believe that was exactly her point, and like I said I'm
not accusing her of racism, and that goes for
speakers/writers/whatever of all the other examples too. It's
not a term to be thrown around casually.

But I don't get it. Republicans are terrified of the changing
ethnic complexion in the USA.

The notion that they are simply too principled to give in to PC
speach is surprisingly naive from a cynical old politics
observer like boldy. Politicians are nothing if not professional
panderers.

Maybe part of the answer is that there is pressure to appease
the racist elements within their constituancies. Seems a bit far
fetched but it would explain why it's so en vogue for their
pundits to pounce on every last opportunity to call the
president a racist. Not that the right has any monopoly on
that sort of thing, of course.
 
1807Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 03:14
I do. Particularly since I'm more interested in a GOP-supporting conservative's take than an undiscerning accusation of racism from the left, if that's what you were thinking.

i guess i don't have to ask why. many conservatives have shown themselves, at best, to be bigoted. at worst, to be racist.
 
1808Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 11:11
many conservatives have shown themselves, at best, to be bigoted. at worst, to be racist.

1. I don't know how many modern Republicans qualify as conservatives.

2. I don't know of any convincing body of evidence to support your suggested notion that conservatives are any more inherently bigoted or racist than liberals.
 
1809Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 11:15
1. Fair enough.
2. i didn't say that all conservatives. i said many. and while it's a small sampling body, between what some people have said on this boards, and what the limbaughs, becks, and coulters say, i think it's a fair enough assessment...
 
1810Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 11:26
i didn't say that all conservatives

That's a straw man. No one has accused you of calling all conservatives racists. Put it away.


and while it's a small sampling body... i think it's a fair enough assessment

In case anyone was wondering what I meant by 'an undiscerning accusation of racism from the left,' there you go.
 
1811Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 12:22
MoJo
I just wanted to note the role of former Speaker of the House and supposedly "serious" Republican "idea man" Newt Gingrich in all this stupid, hateful stupidness. Last week, Gingrich started making a habit of comparing the proposed "mosque" (actually a community center called the Cordoba House or Park51 project) to "putting a Nazi sign next to the Holocaust Museum." I hope I don't have to explain just how offensive everything about that comment is. Gingrich is also scheduled to speak at crazy Muslim-hater (and Malcolm-X-is-Obama's-dad theorizer) Pam Geller's September 11th rally against the "mosque" project alongside Dutch parliamentarian Geert Wilders, who wants to ban the Koran and make Islam illegal.
These people are not serious.
 
1812Boldwin
      ID: 307522111
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 12:54
That writer is not a serious person.

Geert Wilders does not want to ban the koran. He does want to reverse the growing Islamic dominance in his country's life however. Describing that as seeking to ban the koran is dispicable.

The proposed mosque serves the same purpose for Rauf and his radical allies, as does the building of the Al-Aqsa Mosque over the remains of Solomon's Temple and Newt as a preeminant historian is of course correct.
 
1813Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 13:09
Where'd you get that info, Boldy?

BBC
He wants the Koran banned, and has suggested a tax on headscarves worn by Muslim women.
Geert Wilder's opinion piece in the Volkskrant 8/8/07
Enough is enough. Let's stop with the politically correct spin and hype. It is good that Jami now has protection and it is too bad it did not happen sooner, but that does not solve the core of the problem. The core of the problem is fascistic Islam, the sick ideology of Allah and Mohammed as it is set out in the Islamic Mein Kampf: the Koran. The texts in the Koran leave little to the imagination.

In various Sura's Muslims are called upon to oppress, persecute, or kill Jews, Christians and others, believers and non –believers and to beat women and to rape and to use violence to implement a worldwide Islamist state. Numerous other Sura's are used by Muslims to incite to death and destruction.

Ban that wretched book like Mein Kampf is banned!

In doing so send a signal to Jami's attackers and other Islamist that the Koran never ever can be allowed to be used as an inspiration for violence. I am ashamed of the Dutch politicians. Their naïve and pathological striving for a utopian moderate Islam which will only bring our country hell and damnation. I am ashamed of the people inside and outside the Lower House who refuse to stop the Islamic invasion of Holland. I am ashamed for Dutch politicians who day in and day out accept the over representation of foreigners in illegality and criminality and have no answer for it.
Who's not a serious person?
 
1814Boldwin
      ID: 307522111
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 13:30
As hyperbole goes, his is far closer to the truth than his opponents spin.

I would really like to put every liberal here to the test, run every horid incitement to cruel murder, rape, enslavement repeated ad nauseum in the koran, and have the liberals defend them.

That there are nominal muslims who don't feel like following that evil path to the letter, does not take away from the words found therein.

Oh, and when you get done telling me Islam is nevertheless a religion of peace we'll see who is the non-serious person.
 
1815Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 13:39
hyperbole

Sure. Wilder writes "Ban that wretched book like Mein Kampf is banned!" and a journalist who writes, "...Dutch parliamentarian Geert Wilders, who wants to ban the Koran" is guilty of hyperbole for it?

How useless your posts have become. Even in the face of undenyable confirmation, you still cannot accept truth shoved right in front of your face if it doesn't mesh with your worldview.
 
1816Boldwin
      ID: 307522111
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 13:55
I'll be honest and say I have no idea if he is seriously proposing that as a law. In lands where there is no constitutional freedom of speech, namely virtually everywhere else, maybe that is actually a viable option.

Care to tell me exactly what is wrong with the comparison to Mein Kampf?

Will you still be telling me that after the next world war?
 
1817Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 14:15
what is wrong with the comparison to Mein Kampf?

I might be inclined to offer a researched opinion if it wasn't in respones to no less blatant a straw man than Tree offered in 1809.

Once in a while I come across an idea which leads me to challenge my agnosticism, such as that you and Tree are such mirror images of ewach other that your meeting here can only be fate.
 
1818Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 14:32
I have no idea if he is seriously proposing that as a law.

Of course you don't. Why would anybody believe what this guy has to say about his own political agenda?

Anyone else "have no idea?"
 
1819Boldwin
      ID: 307522111
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 14:36
If you want to actually know what Geert Wilders is thinking and saying, as opposed to the cartoon version ala MoJo or your snippet...
Geert Wilders is opposed to all hate speech laws, as he stated explicitly on February 19, 2009 in Rome, and previously, here: "Everything should be possible except to issue calls for violence." It is well past time for the media-across the political spectrum-to stop their grotesque mischaracterization of Wilders' unequivocal defense of free speech. But demonizing Wilders, and imposing de facto limitations on his free speech criticism of Islam-not matter how reasonable his concerns may be-is a task for which our craven, lemming-like media elites are far better suited.
Instead we are in a curious box where the koran enjoys protection while calling for the most grotesque violence while we are legally and culturally repressed from pointing it out.
 
1820Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 14:43
Tree: the cartoon version ala MoJo or your snippet

You're saying that American Thinker post is evidence that he does not want to ban the Koran?
 
1821Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 14:45
That's a straw man. No one has accused you of calling all conservatives racists. Put it away.

fair enough. and if you want to play semantics and specifics, i never said "that conservatives are any more inherently bigoted or racist than liberals."

i did say, however " many conservatives have shown themselves, at best, to be bigoted. at worst, to be racist."

nothing about liberals in there at all.

In case anyone was wondering what I meant by 'an undiscerning accusation of racism from the left,' there you go.

1811, 1812, 1813, 1814, and 1816 certainly speak to the bigotry in which i was discussing.
 
1822Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 14:48
You know whats funny, I was about to post exactly the same excerpt to show that even the foaming-at-the-mouth rabid-right blogosphere knows the guy wants to ban the Koran.

But Tree Boldy (its so hard to tell) beat me to it. Though I admit I'm still not sure how American Thinker explaining that Wilders wants to ban the Koran makes a cartoon out of an excerpt from a Mother Jones article which says that Wilder wants to burn the Koran.

Anyone?
 
1823Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 15:00
if you want to play semantics and specifics, i never said "that conservatives are any more inherently bigoted or racist than liberals."

For an educated "professional" writer, you have a awfuly hard time with this "semantics and specifics" stuff.

I never wrote that you "said" that. I specifically wrote of "your suggested notion that conservatives are any more inherently bigoted or racist than liberals." Curious how you went back to the post to copy that text and still somehow managed to take it out of context by omitting the preceeding words.

If you suggested no such notion than say so, but don't accuse me of falsely attributing statements to you when I did no such thing. Especially in the name of "semantics and specifics."
 
1824DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 15:14
"I would really like to put every liberal here to the test, run every horid incitement to cruel murder, rape, enslavement repeated ad nauseum in the koran, and have the liberals defend them."

Can we do this to your book too? Or does it only go for the religiions you disagree with?
 
1825Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 15:16
I have no idea why "liberals" should answer to the words in someone else's holy book.
 
1826Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 15:18
Oops sorry about the typo (ok typos) in 1822 (ok and the ones in pretty much every post I write). That sentence should read:

...I'm still not sure how American Thinker explaining that Wilders wants to ban the Koran makes a cartoon out of an excerpt from a Mother Jones article which says that Wilders wants to burn ban the Koran.

Haven't come across anything on just how Wilders would dispose of them. Grind them up with some veggies into pig feed?
 
1827Frick
      ID: 97321912
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 15:23
Come on now Mith, the easy answer is Soylent Green.
 
1828DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 15:25
"I have no idea why "liberals" should answer to the words in someone else's holy book."

Because some of the "conservatives" (quotation marks intended, since at this point it's pretty clear that religious zealots on their personal jihad give conservatism a bad name) already believe that banning other people's freedom of religion is a good thing, and he doesn't understand why most people disagree with him, I guess.
 
1829Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sat, Aug 21, 2010, 15:27
Its the "guilt by association" trick that many conservatives use these days. Some liberals too, unfortunately.
 
1830Boldwin
      ID: 33715234
      Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 05:43
Is it true that liberals cannot do paint by numbers?
 
1831Boldwin
      ID: 33715234
      Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 05:46
If you don't like...

This video

...as much as I do, tell it to Katherine Harris.
 
1832Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 08:34
Yes what a pity that female Democrats don't seem to receive the same appearance-based career assistance that Republican women do.

What could unattractive women possibly have to offer the political arena anyway?

Do me a favor, show this post, the preceding one and your response to your wife and let me know how she responds.
 
1833Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 09:32
#1831 - posted that a week ago.

it sets women's equality back generations and considering your repeated heavy breathing over "attractive" conservative women, it's no shock you laud this video.

but, it also goes along with your strong belief of style over substance. even if i thought they were pretty on the outside, many of them are ugly as sin on the inside.
 
1834Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 12:24
Sharron Angle: Not an Oakland Raiders fan, apparently.
 
1835Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Mon, Aug 23, 2010, 12:54
but is she hot?
 
1836Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 02:23
wasn't really sure where to put this, but the entire charade of Glenn Beck's 8/28 rally makes me laugh...

my favorite part of the article, i mean, aside from it being "non-political", even though Sarah Palin is the keynote speaker?

Authorities in the capital say they're prepared for up to 300,000 people. Fellow Fox News host Bill O'Reilly has scoffed at such estimates, promising Beck he'll give up his own show if more than 100,000 people attend. (Some Tea Party groups have distributed a conservative-friendly guide to Washington D.C, warning people to avoid the Green and Yellow subway lines, which cover what the guide's authors suggest are sketchy parts of the city. Alas, says Mike Madden at the Washington City Paper, activists who follow this tip would miss the chance to visit the National Archives, where their "beloved Constitution now resides.")
 
1837Boldwin
      ID: 317392611
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 03:36
They've all got a copy in their back pocket anyway. Avoid the mugging and the public transportation.
 
1838The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 09:01
warning people to avoid the Green and Yellow subway lines, which cover what the guide's authors suggest are sketchy parts of the city. Alas, says Mike Madden at the Washington City Paper, activists who follow this tip would miss the chance to visit the National Archives, where their "beloved Constitution now resides

Yes because the problem is that people avoid crime infested neighborhoods and not the crime infested neighborhood itself.
 
1839Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 09:30
How do you know those areas are "crime infested?" I'm not even sure of what that means.

I think the suggested point is that the huge swaths of the city dismissed as unsafe by this guide are a actually distinct largely minority-dominated neighborhoods with various levels of crime and various amounts of things to offer tourists.

If that's true (I'm not familiar with DC neighborhoods) a travel guide with such safety border warnings just seems written for those who are subject to one kind of fearmongering or another.
 
1840Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 10:16
Why would the guide tell them to avoid certain subway lines in that way? Either you're going to those places or not--it isn't like they would simply be taking random public transportation lines. They are either going there or they aren't.

Besides which: What is the chance of a Tea Party member coming into a large city and taking public transportation anywhere, for any reason?
 
1841Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 10:49
I see fist timer subway tourists in NYC every summer weekend. They're always easy to spot by their reaction from losing their balance when they rely on a weak grip as a train pulls out of a station.
 
1842Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 10:50
Err first-timer
 
1843Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 11:17
NYC is different--you have to use the subway to get around. There are virtually no other cities like that in the US.
 
1844The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 11:58
If that's true (I'm not familiar with DC neighborhoods) a travel guide with such safety border warnings just seems written for those who are subject to one kind of fearmongering or another.

It is courteous to tell out of towners if there are suspect neighborhoods. It is not fearmongering at all. If there is fearmongering or racism at play here it is on your part towards the Tea Party supporters.
 
1845biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 13:15
I am somewhat familiar with DC neighborhoods. DC is odd, in that you can be on one block that is safe and gentrified, and wander 1 block over, and get yourself in serious trouble.

There aren't good, easy boundaries you can draw. Certainly not whole subway lines.
 
1846Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 15:57
Should I bother to ask whether you intend any difference between a neighborhood which is "crime infested" and one which is "suspect?". You seem to use the terms interchangably. I suspect you fail to bother with any distinction there for the same reason that you don't see why some people might be irked by the suggestion to stay out of certain neighborhoods.

That said I do get the sense from bili's post that, similar to the Burlington Coat Factory Community Center uproar, the ado here (what little there is) might come from those who don't know enough about DC to have a relevent opinion.

There you go TLB, based on what I've seen, I'm on your side on this one.
 
1847Boldwin
      ID: 317392611
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 16:15
As runner up to Washington DC as murder capital of America, Chicago locals have no problem telling you exactly the street where you're suddenly in imminent danger. I mean besides the gang colors on the loitering thugs with murder in their eye.
 
1848Boldwin
      ID: 317392611
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 16:21
Before you call me a racist for calling them thugs....yes I know anyone who disgrees with you is automatically racist...

I used to play basketball with the guys with 'Thug Life' tatooed in 6" letters across their solar plexus. So don't call me racist for calling them thugs.

I also used to employ a retired former gang enforcer for a drug gang that used to operate a few blocks from where I used to live. Didn't meet him there. I met him in the rurals where his girlfriend had pulled him away from all that.
 
1849Mith
      ID: 2672547
      Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 16:27
LOL. Yes yes I'm sure your reputation precedes you in those circles. :)

I don't object to or even disagree with anything in 1847.
 
1850Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 03, 2010, 01:36
Maybe going with a no-teleprompter rule isn't the smartest thing for the GOP...
 
1851Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Sep 03, 2010, 11:09
Maybe going with a no-teleprompter rule isn't the smartest thing for the GOP...

i mean, political gaffes happen. but wow. i felt like she was running for Sophomore class president with that one. "...oh, and vote for me and i promise free Reese's Pieces in the caf every day!"
 
1852Mith
      ID: 1585036
      Fri, Sep 03, 2010, 11:14
The evil part of me is enjoying the schadenfreude of watching Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer (R) totally botch her opening statement in last night's gubernatorial debate...

The charitable side of me knows the terror of completely losing your train of thought in rehearsed remarks.
-David Kurtz.
 
1853Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Sep 07, 2010, 12:42
Republican Runs Street People on Green Ticket

Mr. Pearcy and other drifters and homeless people were recruited onto the Green Party ballot by a Republican political operative who freely admits that their candidacies may siphon some support from the Democrats. Arizona’s Democratic Party has filed a formal complaint with local, state and federal prosecutors in an effort to have the candidates removed from the ballot, and the Green Party has urged its supporters to steer clear of the rogue candidates.
 
1854Mith
      ID: 1585036
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 10:58
Slate's Fred Kaplan asks why Republicans, usually vocally supportive of American troops, haven't come out in opposition to the 9/11/10 Koran burning, especially after General Patraeus specifically said Monday that the planned event increases the danger they are in.

He singles out John McCain, James Inhofe and Saxby Chambliss but I haven't heard any Republican elected officials, candidates or any Republican former governors and speakers of the House with presidential aspirations condemn this event despite the additional risk it adds too the jobs of our military deployed in Islamic countries.

The left was relentlessly attacked for it's opposition to the Iraq with the charge that oppoition at home emboldens the enemy. The GOP was happy to demand at the time that our freedom to express our opposition to a war sold to the public on lies was less important than what our enemies think of our solidarity at home.

But the Koran burning not only emboldens (and enrages) our Islamist enemies, it offends Muslims everywhere, surely helping to fully radicalize some who might otherwise not get involved.

Curious how this time around, the very similar (and possibly more serious) safety concerns for our enlisted take a back seat, not to free speech, but to political appeasement of the most actively bigoted corners of their constituancies.
 
1855Boldwin
      ID: 5985810
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 11:06
Sure they may have the right to do what they want with their own property but in view of the high stakes involved and the feelings of multitudes, they should reconsider and do the right thing.
 
1856boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 11:19
9/11/10 Koran burning

I like how we give such power to 50 people, this is completely insane.
 
1857DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 11:30
Ah, this is a pleasant change at least. Now we're moved (back) into the feeeeeeeeelings line of debate -- without really moving there.

Answer this: why should they care what people who don't understand them at all think about them? Why should they care about the feelings of people who wrongly associate them with a completely different group of people who have nothing to do with their feelings and beliefs but who did something really bad?

If some kook who professed to be of your religion did something horrible "in the name of your religion", even though they hold a bunch of beliefs that you don't hold and most people of your religion don't hold, would you expect to be held personally accountable, and to have to not worship in the way that you want to even though it's completely legal and normal for you to do so? Of course you wouldn't!
 
1858DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 11:32
Boikin -- elaborate on this... because you're on exactly the right track, I think.
 
1859Mith
      ID: 1585036
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 11:36
they should reconsider and do the right thing.

Well that's terrific of you to say, but you're neither a Republican nor a politician.

we give such power to 50 people

Point well taken. But for better or worse, it's been a part of the discussion for a while now. It's not unfair to ask why they haven't condemned it.
 
1860Mith
      ID: 1585036
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 11:40
1857 Dwetz

I don't understand your first paragraph at all. Who is "they"?

The point has absolutely nothing to do with any religious 'accountability'. I'm asking why the GOP isn't living up to it's own standards regarding troop-supportive behavior at home during wartime.
 
1861Boldwin
      ID: 5985810
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 11:42
MITH

Surely it is not lost on you how perfectly #1855 fits both circumstances, GZM and Koran burning? Exact same logic in both cases?
 
1862Mith
      ID: 1585036
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 11:47
Boldy 1861
Exact same logic in both cases?

You know I put this in the GOP thread because the point is about the GOP and not the Burlington Coat Factory Indoor Swimming Pool.

Of course I see the similarities, I wish you saw them! Unlike you, I think neither Terry Jones' Koran burning event nor the development of Project 51 should be stopped.
 
1863Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 11:52
Unlike you, I think neither Terry Jones' Koran burning event nor the development of Project 51 should be stopped.

agreed. as awful and dangerous as i believe Jones' crusade to be, he absolutely has the right to burn the Koran if he sees fit.

we give such power to 50 people

Point well taken. But for better or worse, it's been a part of the discussion for a while now. It's not unfair to ask why they haven't condemned it.


it's the media at work, and you can't blame them. it absolutely is news. and while it may only be 50 people, it's a reflection on the rest of our society to a certain extent, at least in the their eyes.

much the same way people in other countries thought we were all a bunch of George Bush cowboys, or that everyone in texas is a right wing moron, it's just the way it's reflected.


 
1864The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 12:59
why Republicans, usually vocally supportive of American troops, haven't come out in opposition to the 9/11/10 Koran burning, especially after General Patraeus specifically said Monday that the planned event increases the danger they are in.

This is interesting how Democrats will defend Muslims right to build a mosque near the 9/11 site as it is protected under law but a Koran burning that is protected under the 1st Amendment should be shut down.
 
1865Mith
      ID: 1585036
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 13:04
a Koran burning that is protected under the 1st Amendment should be shut down

Huh? What Democrat said that?
 
1866Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 14:11
This is interesting how Democrats will defend Muslims right to build a mosque near the 9/11 site as it is protected under law but a Koran burning that is protected under the 1st Amendment should be shut down.

you do realize that the two posts immediately prior to yours explicitly stated that Jones has every right to burn the Koran if he chooses, right?
 
1867DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 14:33
"1857 Dwetz

I don't understand your first paragraph at all. Who is "they"?

The point has absolutely nothing to do with any religious 'accountability'. I'm asking why the GOP isn't living up to it's own standards regarding troop-supportive behavior at home during wartime."

I may have misinterpreted something.

Then again, I may not. I am just confused (as seems to have come out in later posts) as to how criticisms of the Koran burning (which, as noted by basically everyone, is different from saying they shouldn't have it if they want to) by boikin are not understood, while he's willing to actually not just criticize but is willing to stop the mosque building on basically the same basis.

In other words, it's basically the logical counter of what Left Behind said, except that he's stated one of the premises unfactually and I don't think I have.
 
1868DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 14:43
To clarify:

"This is interesting how Democrats will defend Muslims right to build a mosque near the 9/11 site as it is protected under law but a Koran burning that is protected under the 1st Amendment should be shut down."

One might equally say "it's interesting how Republicans will defend Christian's rights to burn other people holy books that is protected under law but believe that a place of worship protected under the law should be shut down." Same logical premises, just reversed, right?

Of course, the difference is that the second statement is actually what's happening, and the first statement is not. As noted, most of the Democrats/liberulz/whatever you want to try to lump people into are not actually trying to shut this book burning down -- they're content to expose it for the hateful idiocy that it is.


For most "liberals", there's a gulf of difference between "I think doing X is a bad idea, stupid, or inappropriate" and "nobody should be able to do X". That used to be true of conservatives, actually -- not so much any more. There are a few, that have been quoted above (Hatch, off the top of my head) who are actually willing to put the principles of "even if I don't agree with it, I'll defend other people's rights to do it" ahead of "I don't think it's appropriate, therefore it should be shut down". None in this thread, sadly.
 
1869boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 15:02
it's the media at work, and you can't blame them.

right when i almost thought me and tree where agreeing, yes i can blame the media just like i blame the media for every time they make white girls disappearance a national news story. I also blame the general public for caring so much if they did tune in to here about koran burnings or missing rich girls this would not even be a story.
 
1870Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 16:40
Let me be more clear. Jones' Koran burning event failed to get a permit from the local FD. I don't know anything about whatever regulations were or may have been cited to deny the permit. That makes the even a violation and a willful act of civil disobedience on the part of the participants. Presumably, law enforcement has the right to fine or arrest him or them once they light a fire. No different from any public display lacking any necessary permits.

I'm indifferent with regard to how local enforcement handles this, as long as they didn't go out of bounds in denying Jones his permit.
 
1871Boldwin
      ID: 1184818
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 19:14
agreed. as awful and dangerous as i believe Jones' crusade to be, he absolutely has the right to burn the Koran if he sees fit. - Tree

Wrong as he ever was. Not only are we not constitutionally empowered to build anything wherever we want, we are not permitted to burn absoluely whatever wherever we want.

Try telling that to my Peru building inspector who is cracking down on tenants burning garbage against city ordinance. Tell it to smokey the bear. See how far you get.

Granted that pastor will eventually burn those korans somewhere somehow if he really wants to and muslims will have no problem building in America most places.
 
1872Boldwin
      ID: 1184818
      Wed, Sep 08, 2010, 19:20
I am surprised no one has mentioned that koran burning will get people killed somewhere. There will be deadly riots overseas, you can count on that. Not sure how that pastor lives with that.

Then again I can't see how the west allows Islam to blackmail them over religious infractions. This will not stand, it will come to a head eventually as radicals keep pushing the envelope.
 
1873Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 01:21
Wrong as he ever was. Not only are we not constitutionally empowered to build anything wherever we want, we are not permitted to burn absoluely whatever wherever we want.

point. which MITH cleared up.

much like the Community Center being built in lower Manhattan received the permits and approvals it needed, and now has the right to build on that site, if the Christian who wants to burn the Koran receives the correct permits and approvals, he has the right to burn those books.

I am surprised no one has mentioned that koran burning will get people killed somewhere.

it was mentioned. you tend to read only your own posts.



 
1874Boldwin
      ID: 1981396
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 07:13
Baseless charges of racism evaporate in the light of reality.

 
1875Mith
      ID: 1585036
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 08:20
Beck goes on national radio and TV every day and attacks people who subscribe to MLK's brand of Christianity as a Marxist Trojan horse and it's practitioners as the enemies of America. He rails against Jeremiah Wright for saying things that MLK was saying decades earlier. His contempt for Wright is so deep that he uses him as his standard for comparison to show how terrible his target of the day is.

MLK's photo would be right in the middle of Beck's chalkboard flowchart of evil, if he didn't know it would be instant career suicide.

Yes, of course there are many things King said that the Beck-o-maniacs would not applaud that have noting to do with race.
 
1876sarge33rd
      ID: 280311620
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 08:25
re 1864:

Yes, I oppose strongly, the burning of the Koran and yes, I also support the building of the Mosque in NYC.

The two, are not related. The Koran burning, is a direct slap in the face and is inciteful all across the globe. It endangers not only American troops overseas in combat areas, but those in other regions of the globe as well. It poses the very real potential, of endangering ALL Americans overseas, not just military personnel. I'm shocked, that the right, a usual proponent of the troops and of religion in general, is not up in arms over this deliberate affront to a religion.

The building of the mosque, pisses off a very small number of self-righteous people who so far, have refused to listen to the truth. For whatever reason, those relatively few people, have opted to buy into the lies of foxspews talking heads, instead of learning the truth.

The two are not the same, and are not synonymous.
 
1877Boldwin
      ID: 1981396
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 11:34
The principle in #1855...
Sure they may have the right to do what they want with their own property but in view of the high stakes involved and the feelings of multitudes, they should reconsider and do the right thing.
...Applies perfectly and equally in both cases.
 
1878The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 13:03
This will not stand, it will come to a head eventually as radicals keep pushing the envelope.

Just who will stand up that has the numbers to do so? The current majority does not want any part of this. Everyone else will be heckled a racist by the left until they sit down or are publicly humiliated.
 
1879Boldwin
      ID: 1981396
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 14:12
Since the edge of envelope from the radical islamist perspective eventually is world-wide sharia, at some point there will be pushback.

I'm assuming even the craziest liberal here will decide french kissing multiculturalism stops somewhere short of Wahabi dress codes, death penalties for gays, adultering women, rape victims, kids who fool around, people who chose not to be muslim and slicing off the cliteris of their women folk.

Somewhere before [America is sharia compliant - Rauf [sic]] there will be pushback.
 
1880Perm Dude on LBI
      ID: 8824914
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 15:48
1878: Any part of what, exactly?

The problem is that some on the Far Right continue to conflate "radicalmuslimterrorists" with "American Muslims." What, exactly, are you against?
 
1881Boldwin
      ID: 1981396
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 16:39
When Rauf's crew really start turning the screws, just remember how clueless you were.
 
1882DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 17:08
When someone decides that you can't worship your god any more because 0.00001% of the total number of nominal worshipers of your religion (who don't really believe in the things that you believe in), from halfway around the world, does something bad, just remember how clueless you were.
 
1883Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 17:23
When Rauf's crew really start turning the screws, just remember how clueless you were.

i'm pretty sure we're all EXTREMELY worried that this latest fear-based comment will come true.

i really would love to go back over the last few years, gather all your predictions, put them in one thread, and check your percentages of actually being right.

there's no question you're well below the Mendoza line, and i'd be shocked if you actually got more than one-half of one percent right.
 
1884Boldwin
      ID: 1981396
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 17:24
I never said anything about stopping muslims from worshipping, and thank you for once again confirming the agenda you and Tree have against Christianity/Christendom.

The whole point of this excersize as far as the globalist elite are concerned is shutting down all religion. That is why this clash of cultures has been ginned up.

You and Tree constantly conflating Christianty with Islam is really useful to them in this project.
 
1885Boldwin
      ID: 1981396
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 17:30
Tree

When you see global government, suppression of all religion and Armageddon, you got what you asked for.

The rest of you, get on the boat early enuff or drown.
 
1886DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 17:37
LOL, projecting much? Or did I miss where you've changed your mind about the mosque?

You're the one trying to shut down a religion, not us. If it's part of the globalist agenda to shut down religions, and you're against that, you really oughta get on the other side of this issue.

You can merrily worship to your heart's content, and if you wanted to build a church there, I'd support that too, even if I don't like the magazines.
 
1887DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 17:42
(PS: And if, after they build their mosque, you want to stand outside it and tell everyone why you think Islam is bad and they're all terrorist sympathizers, I'll support your right to do that too. I'd think you kooky for doing it, but I'd still support your right to do it.)

I'm looking forward to a day when you nanny-state conservatives get out of that business and get back to staying out of people's lives as much as they seem to want people to stay out of their wallets.
 
1888Boldwin
      ID: 1981396
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 17:49
I will trust that the average Poliboard lurker can tell the difference between one in-your-face monument to terrorists and their 'victory' on the one hand, and all the mosques in America on the other and realize I am not suggesting Islam be shut down by this government.
 
1889DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 18:00
I'm sure that the average Poliboard lurker can easily determine that it's a very very very TINY step from wanting the government to say "we're not going to let you build it here, even though it's legal for everyone else, because some people might be offended" and "we're not going to let you build it anywhere".

They can also tell the very very very BIG difference between this project and an "in-your-face monument to terrorists".


And again, if you want to change your stance from "they shouldn't be allowed to build it" to "they should be allowed to build it but I don't like them anyway", you'd be doing American principles a great service. Heck, if 99.999% of Americans were against this thing, they can (peacefully) protest it all they want to. Scream it from the mountaintops.

But if you believe in freedom, you shouldn't be in favor of stopping Americans from legally building an American place of worship in America.
 
1890Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Sep 09, 2010, 19:14
...Tree have against Christianity/Christendom.

like nearly everything else you say on this board, this too, is only in your head.

i'm no longer going to respond to your baiting statements of some sort of vendetta i have against Christianity. not worth it. you think i'm anti-Christian.

my friends know otherwise.
 
1891biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 00:43
I was wondering where The Left Behind lived. Now we know. ;)

 
1892Boldwin
      ID: 35816155
      Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 06:16
Masters degree in communication indeed. You really gotta wonder what kinda person wants the responsibility of digging government finances out of the hole it is in these days. Juggling that much red ink without any personal handle on spending...
 
1893biliruben
      ID: 16105237
      Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 06:49
And boy does he want it!
 
1894Boldwin
      ID: 35816155
      Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 08:40
With that many high degrees, and that much enthusiasm, he sure wants something. Is county treasurer that much of a springboard? I could imagine being that enthused about cutting government spending, but the treasurer doesn't have that power.
 
1895bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Thu, Sep 16, 2010, 12:23
It's a conspiracy! Cycling promotion a UN ruse to steal our freedom.
link

Colorado GOP gubernatorial candidate Dan Maes may not have the complete support of the Colorado GOP, but if I were to make a prediction, there is one frequent poster hereabouts who will feel a distinct kinship.
 
1896Boldwin
      ID: 288321621
      Thu, Sep 16, 2010, 22:32
There are many true things that will get you laffed at if you dare point them out before people are ready to accept them.
 
1897Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Fri, Sep 17, 2010, 10:41
Rush once again establishes his role as the capo of the GOP.
 
1898The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Fri, Sep 17, 2010, 12:51
Karl Rove heavily supported the war mongering RINOs over the past eight years and deserves whatever fire Rush Limbaugh can throw at him. Limbaugh might as well lead the Republicans. I do not perceive him as a RINO.
 
1899Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Fri, Sep 17, 2010, 14:47
?

Limbaugh didn't support the the war mongering RINOs over the same period?

And am I to take that as to mean that you opposed the Iraq war at the time, or that you regret it? If not, what exactly are you referring to in criticizing the GOP establishment as war mongers?
 
1900Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 18, 2010, 20:38
The direction of the GOP: Bigotry.

Why else would Mike Huckabee, Mitt Romney, Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich share the stage at the Value Voters Summit with the American Family Association's Bryan Fischer?

Remember: the political right demands that we judge pols by the worst behavior of the people they associate with.
 
1901Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Sep 18, 2010, 21:39
Another week. Another accusation of bigotry or racism. Welcome to the political forum.
 
1902Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 18, 2010, 22:02
It's called sarcasm, genius.

There is no question that Fischer is a bigot. These people choose to associate with him. It's my standard of judgement I'm apply here.
 
1904Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 18, 2010, 22:07
Err... It's not my standard of judgement I apply here.
 
1905Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Sat, Sep 18, 2010, 23:46
The direction of the GOP: Bigotry.


Doesn't sound like sarcasm to me. I think you meant every word of it.
 
1906Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Sep 18, 2010, 23:59
You'll believe what you want to believe. That is all too well established. But I've been making a point to hold the right to their own ridiculous standards for judging pols; that if President Obama is to be accused of being behind every last nefarious thing committed by everyone he and his wife ever befriended or worked with (which of course is absurd) then the standard should be applied the same way when the tides are turned.

But you go right ahead and think what you like. Why should anyone believe what I say my opinions are anyway when the resident 9/11 truther clearly knows better?
 
1908Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Sun, Sep 19, 2010, 09:08
When the right get called out its racist or bigotry.

if the shoe fits...

the fact of the matter is that the Right will excuse bigotry with a simple "oh, the left ALWAYS says that..."
 
1909Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Sep 19, 2010, 10:26
Great, Mith is a race baiter (or whatever) despite two years worth of posts plainly displaying that the context intended something entirely different.

Terrific way to avoid the topic. Anyone here on the political right on record holding Obama accountable for the words and actions of Bill Ayers or Steven Gibson or who is sensitive to that line of thinking care to comment on the leadership of the GOP deliberately associating themselves with an undenyable bigot who seeks to unconstitutionally impede the rights of American citizens and other human beings living in America?

My guess is it's much easier to continue to attack a satirical sentiment as if it were literal as a way to ignore the intended point all together. A more timely use of someone else's phrase:

Welcome to the Politics forum.
 
1910Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Sep 19, 2010, 10:43
It appears some feel political correctness should be a one way street.

Accusations of bigotry and racism are taboo, but accusations of marxism, killing granny, destroying our freedoms, enabling terrorism, and my personal favorite:

"All liberals are atheists" - Ann Coulter

are positions to be admired as the product of genuine analysis.

Bryan Fischer is a bigot. Does that make the entire entourage at the Values Voters Summit bigots as well?

It depends on whose standards you apply.
 
1913DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Sep 19, 2010, 12:21
In the interest of keeping things on topic (surprised nobody's linked this yet, been all over the news sites), your Montana official GOP platform http://mtgop.org/platform.aspx still thinks homosexuality could be illegal.

Nope, no bigotry at all, nothing to see here. (Is posting the official platform of a state party a cheap shot too?)

Way to keep government out of people's lives, "conservatives".
 
1914The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 13:38
If not, what exactly are you referring to in criticizing the GOP establishment as war mongers?

No offense but have you lived in this country for the past 8 years? I should not need to clarify this.
 
1915Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 14:58
No offense taken, but I do find your response strange. In the last eight years I've seen all manner of opinions of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, particularly from the political right, ranging from ineptly prosecuted to smashing success.

I'd be awfully surprised to hear you say that you don't know any smart people on the right who would immediately reject the previous administration and its supporters as war mongers. I see them on FNC and elsewhere every day. Further, correct me if mistaken but I believe I've seen at least tacit support for military aggression against Iran, which would be an even more aggressive war policy than the people you appear to refer to as war mongers.

So I don't believe my request that you clarify that reference is any reason for you to react in disbelief.

That said, you avoided the greater point in the lead. Your citing of Rove's "support for" war mongers in suppport for Limbaugh is a curious double standard, since as far as I know Limbaugh also strongly supported the administration's war policy. In fact I'd bet that if there was any criticism from Limbaugh, it was probablly that the administration wasn't aggressive enough. I see no evidence that Limbaugh is any less a "war monger" than Rove.

So, no offense, but your entire line of thought in that exchange seems to have both fact and logic based flaws.
 
1916Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 15:00
Err.. I believe I've seen at least tacit support for military aggression against Iran from you, TLB, which would be an even more aggressive war policy than the people you appear to refer to as war mongers.
 
1917The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 16:03
Iran has openly called for Israel to be destroyed and are trying to build a bomb. How would you stop that day from happening if at all?
 
1918Razor
      ID: 57854118
      Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 16:46
I think your questions could qualify as warmongering. Your hypothetical is a very unlikely scenario. No one has ever used nuclear weapons except us, if you recall.
 
1919Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 19:44
Through 225 years of American history, our foreign policy has stood consistantly and firmly opposed to preventive war. Perhaps you are misapplying the term 'warmonger'? At this point I have no idea what you mean by it, except that it's something that Karl Rove and RINOs are, but that Rush Limbaugh and supporters of preventive war against Iran are not.
 
1920The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 10:05
You do not answer my questions but you want me to answer yours?
 
1921Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 10:38
Actually I had two questions for you, both from 4 days ago in posts 1899. The question you posed yesterday was responded to, with an explanation that the point it attempts fails it's purpose of defending an attack on Iran as something other than "warmongering". If you want to further change the topic to a discussion about the best way to deal with Iran, we have more than one thread better suited for and already housing discussion about that topic than this one, which is about the direction of a political party which currently does not control American foreign policy.

So Im sorry my response yesterday did not include an answer about foreign policy, but that's a very complex topic which already has at least one more apropriate place to be hashed out. But I've waited quite patiently for responses to two questions I asked last week.
 
1922The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 10:59
It is clear you have no desire to answer that question to expose your own opinion on the matter but have no qualms in doing so to me.

Limbaugh didn't support the the war mongering RINOs over the same period?

I really do not remember. If he towed the party line then he must have.

And am I to take that as to mean that you opposed the Iraq war at the time, or that you regret it?

Yes. What did those people ever do to us?

This conversation is over for me, much like when you lost the stimulus audit discussion, until you respond to my question about you and Iran for reasons I have stated.
 
1923Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 11:03
This conversation is over for me

That's for the best if you are going to continue to pollute the discussion with off-topic posts and whine when those who respond try to bring the conversation back on topic.
 
1924Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 12:05
This conversation is over for me

at least you're honest about leaving the conversation when you're not really in it to begin with. Baldwin used to use the "i'm going to play some time-consuming online game now" excuse...
 
1925Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 12:25
I have two questions for The Left Behind:

A. How long have you been posting here?

B. How many posts directed at you have had to be deleted because they violated the policy on civility and respect?
 
1926The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 13:16
A. A month or so.
B. I lost count.
 
1927The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 13:29
This should not be a surprise Building 7. Liberals made their bones on the stop beating your wife school of argument. Either that or call people racists.
 
1928Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 13:34
Those lefties are lucky you respond to them at all, considering the unwarranted rude treatment you've received since arriving. There's really no excuse for that behavior.
 
1929bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 13:38
How would you stop that day from happening if at all?

If that isn't a stop beating your wife question, I don't know what is.
 
1930Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 14:06
As I've previously noted, Im pretty sure he thinks that phrase refers to something other than what it actually means.
 
1931DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 14:25
"This should not be a surprise Building 7. Liberals made their bones on the stop beating your wife school of argument. Either that or call people racists."

So, just for the record, you think it's OK for you to make posts like this but you dislike it when other people do the same thing only with specific evidence?
 
1932chode
      ID: 4744089
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 17:17
Post #187 in the mosque thread pretty clearly indicates to me that TLB does not know the meaning of the 'beating your wife' phrase. And I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt in that discussion.
 
1933Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 17:20
Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban

Senate Republicans on Tuesday blocked legislation that would have repealed the law banning gays from serving openly in the military...

...With the 56-43 vote, Democrats fell short of the 60 votes needed to advance the legislation. It also would have authorized $726 billion in defense spending including a pay raise for troops.
 
1934Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 20:03
Not just a block, they they decided to hold up the Pentagon's entire budget to keep in place a policy the military says it wants to scrap.

Like weapons systems made in conservative districts--even if the military wanted to they can't overcome short-sighted conservatives.
 
1935Boldwin
      ID: 15810222
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 03:10
Or conversely liberals said no freedom without Philidelpia freedom.
 
1936Wilmer McLean
      ID: 49816225
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 06:45
RE: 1919 Through 225 years of American history, our foreign policy has stood consistently and firmly opposed to preventive war.

Council on Foreign Relations Interview with John Lewis Gaddis

February 6, 2004

...

Q: Can I stop you on the word pre-emptive? I know it was used in the National Security Strategy of September 2002, but pre-emptive carries with it the thought of stopping some imminent attack. We now know in Iraq there probably wasn’t an imminent attack likely. Wouldn’t preventive be a better word?


A: The terms are confusing because there was a fairly clear and sharp distinction during the Cold War between pre-emptive and preventive war. In the Cold War, pre-emption meant imminent danger. Preventive was understood to be a more long-term question. I have always felt that these terms were not easily separated, that there was a kind of blur between them. And I think that is all the more relevant as you move out of the Cold War and as we get away from the context of nuclear war in which these terms were being used. The idea of pre-emption or prevention is not new in American foreign policy.


It’s deeply rooted in American foreign policy, going all the way back to the aftermath of the War of 1812. It was a dominant feature of our foreign policy for 100 years, coming all the way up through the early 20th century Roosevelt corollary to the Monroe Doctrine [that made the Western Hemisphere off-limits to European colonization]. There were no clear distinctions made between pre-emption and prevention in the thinking of that period.



I think we are actually back to a kind of situation which 19th-century strategists had to deal with: the danger of non-state actors who, with state support or taking advantage of the failure of states, might gain locations from which they could threaten American interests. There was a sense that these dangers had to be pre-empted or prevented by taking over Florida, for example, from Spain, or taking over Texas from Mexico, or, according to many historians, provoking a war with Mexico so [the United States] could take California to prevent the French or British from taking it later.


[Another example is] our interventions in Central America at the beginning of the 20th century, which were intended to prevent so-called failed states from providing excuses that might lead European powers like imperial Germany, for instance, to intervene. There is a long tradition behind this, and I think it obscures more than it illuminates to try to provide this pre-emption/prevention distinction from the nuclear debates in the 1950s and 1960s and try to make them work in this new situation.

...


-------------------------------------------------

Frontline Interview with John Lewis Gaddis

...

Q: How dramatic or new is this doctrine of preemption?

A: Well, the doctrine of preemption has a long and distinguished history in the history of American foreign policy. Our doctrine throughout most of the 19th century -- at the time that we were expanding along the frontier and confronted European colonies along the frontier, confronted Indians, confronted pirates, confronted hostile non-state actors along the frontier -- was very much one of preemption.

Preemption is how we took Florida. Preemption is, in some way, how we took Texas. Preemption is how we took the Philippines, basically, in 1898. So to say that preemption is an un-American doctrine is not right historically. However, preemption has not been the primary American doctrine for a very long time, and it certainly was not during the Cold War for pretty obvious reasons. Because preemption ran the risk, of course, of nuclear war, equally damaging to both sides during the Cold War. So, very little was heard about preemption, at least in public, during the Cold War.

But the idea is coming back, and it's coming back for some of the same reasons that it was there in the 19th century: because, again, we face a situation of domestic insecurity, of being insecure in our own homes and work places, which was the condition of frontier existence in the 19th century. So, in that sense, it's not totally surprising that preemption would come back.

...


-------------------------------------------------

Can a moderator start a new thread of "The Direction of the GOP III or campaign 2010" that doesn't take half a day to load on my Apple IIc?
 
1937The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 10:21
Wrong again Mith thanks to Wilmer.

The whole thing about me referencing "stop beating your wife" is my unwillingness to participate in the left's distraction technique of personal attacks and outright horrible lies about people. So parlance the language all you want lurkers and part-timers but that's the way I'm using the term.
 
1938Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 10:44
the doctrine of preemption has a long and distinguished history in the history of American foreign policy....

Preemption is how we took Florida. Preemption is, in some way, how we took Texas[not to mention California]. Preemption is how we took the Philippines, basically, in 1898. So to say that preemption is an un-American doctrine is not right historically. However, preemption has not been the primary American doctrine for a very long time


I would dispute the Mexican-American and Spanish-American Wars, wars started and fought for the sole purpose of land expansion, can be defined as 'distinguished' in the vernacular the author intends. Yet, at this point in history, Europe was busily colonizing the rest of the world, so getting in on the expansion game through pre-emptive military means that had nothing to do with defending the homeland was an acceptable status quo.

If one looks at Vietnam and Iraq as part of our 'distinguished' history of pre-emptive war, then the word 'distinguished' becomes so convoluted as to be rendered meaningless.
 
1939DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 11:39
"The whole thing about me referencing "stop beating your wife" is my unwillingness to participate in the left's distraction technique of personal attacks and outright horrible lies about people."

You make it sound as though this is exclusive to "the left", and also that you personally haven't engaged in it repeatedly. That would be a definite perversion of reality, to put it as civilly as possible.
 
1940Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 12:08
but that's the way I'm using the term

Shocker: ignorance is strength.

Wilmer

That's a neoconservative defense of the Iraq War made (explicitly, in fact) to blur the distinction between preemption and prevention. It's very telling that TLB would cling to this paradigm to discredit me, given that it is the polar opposite of the position he took on Iraq less that 24 hours prior in #1922 to explain his earlier characterization of the perpetrators and supporters of the Iraq War as warmongers; "What did those people ever do to us"?

Anyway, I've come across Gaddis on this before and not all of his facts are straight. The notion and policy certainly wasn't born in the cold war era. Lincoln wrote in 1848:
Before going further consider well whether this is or is not your position. If it is, it is a position that neither the President himself, nor any friend of his, so far as I know, has ever taken. Their only positions are--first, that the soil was ours when the hostilities commenced; and second, that whether it was rightfully ours or not, Congress had annexed it, and the President for that reason was bound to defend it; both of which are as clearly proved to be false in fact as you can prove that your house is mine. The soil was not ours, and Congress did not annex or attempt to annex it. But to return to your position. Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If to-day he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."
Hardly sounds like "our doctrine throughout most of the 19th century" to me. Further, the notion of 19th century frontier expansion as preemption (much less his sloppy preemption/prevention combo platter) is laughable. Manifest Destiny had nothing to do with self defense! It was justified because we rejected the very notion of Indian tribe sovereignty. In Florida, Seminole tribes armed by the Spanish were attacking American land in Georgia - the response was not preemption, much less prevention.

I don't have time to go back and research all of his examples but the stretching he's willing to do in these other cases leaves me skeptical that there is much substance to any of his claims. And even if he did manage to come up with some valid examples of 19th century preventive war, citing the forced population removal and near genocide of Native Americans by the US as justification for any modern policy should set off the crackpot meter.

Last, even if he were right about everything he wrote, even Gaddis would have to admit that the topic at hand: a preventive attack on Iran, involves far more relevent parallels with the challenges of the cold war than the invasion of Iraq, his justification of which is based on the diffierences between it and the cold war era's aversion to preventive war.
 
1941The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 13:07
Manifest Destiny had nothing to do with self defense! It was justified because we rejected the very notion of Indian tribe sovereignty.

Lol! Because if the nation does not exist in our eyes of course then it must not really exist.

a preventive attack on Iran, involves far more relevent parallels with the challenges of the cold war than the invasion of Iraq, his justification of which is based on the diffierences between it and the cold war era's aversion to preventive war.

How so?
 
1942Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 13:22
if the nation does not exist in our eyes...

The reference is regarding the stated justifications for Manifest Destiny, not the validity of them or it. Please try to keep up.

How so?

Now would be an apropriate time to react in disbelief. You are unaware that American foreign policy during the cold war was entirely dominated non-proliferation of nuclear weapons among our enemies? Exactly the same thing which dominates our Iran policy today?

 
1943The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 13:28
The reference is regarding the stated justifications for Manifest Destiny, not the validity of them or it.

Walks like a duck. Quacks like a duck. Are you disputing the validity of the Manifest Destiny justifications? If so, then you already know we have acted preemptively.
 
1944Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 14:28
This is painful. You're making up history as you go along to suit your arguments. What is it you could possibly think Manifest Destiny was designed to preempt? Preemption and prevention are defensive justifications. MD was the opposite - it was an expansionist policy which explicitly claimed the right to territory that wasn't ours - justified not not because sovereign Indian tribes would imminantly or most likely attack us, but in the name of cultural progress and for some, a twisted belief in some kind of divine right.

Please take a step back and look at the illogic you siding up with here. You're grasping at straws to defend this neocon warmonger's defense of the very warmonger policy you just criticized yesterday because you think it discredits my criticism an rejection of that same warmonger policy.
 
1945The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 14:45
This discussion is over. You will stop at nothing to avoid questions. Thank you for the dictionary explanation of Manifest Destiny.
 
1946Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 15:52
As usual I'm happy to let any lurkers decide for themselves whether the US has a long robust history of preventive war, whether that history includes the ethnic cleansing of Native Americans, whether preemptive war simply refers to any unjustifyable attack on another country and whether I'm the one who should be called out for avoiding questions.

And for the record TLB, you don't get to decide when a discussion here ends. What you actually mean that you have taken your ball and gone home. A wonderful promise which I dearly hope you keep.
 
1947biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 16:00
How on earth will we press on without the benefit of this self-proclaimed superstar?!!
 
1948boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 16:03
justified not not because sovereign Indian tribes would imminantly or most likely attack us

Indian wars were almost always justified by the use of fear that they would attack. And almost all cases Indian wars were viewed and preemptive strikes against a people who may or may not posed a real danger to the country.

You are unaware that American foreign policy during the cold war was entirely dominated non-proliferation of nuclear weapons among our enemies?

what are you talking about? i guess that explains the vietnam war, pay of bigs, Iran contra, funding of Afgany Rebels, invasion of the Dominican Republic....I would say the whole cold war was pretty much one preemptive battle after another.
 
1949The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 16:14
Now we know why Mith does not answer questions Boikin. When he does he is wrong!
 
1950Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 12:55
GOP puts out their platform, hoping people won't ask for details.

It is a platform with vague spending cuts, repealing some laws which actually save money for the government, and keeping the military spending machine cranked at 11.

The GOP must think the American people are as stupid as their hard-core base. They are simply unserious about addressing the problems that they themselves claim to be serious ones facing the country.
 
1951Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 13:07
Boikin

almost all cases Indian wars were viewed and preemptive strikes

This is false. By all means, which "Indian wars" were preemptive? If it was almost all of them, it should be very easy for you to provide information to support this claim.

Preemptive means you attack before an imminant attack is perpetrated upon you. As noted for example, the ethnic cleansing of the Seminole nation was justified by attacks on American territory in GA. Further poking around Wikipedia shows that they also fought alongside the British during the War of 1812, that possibly being the primary justification for the First Seminole War. The Creek Nation also aligned itself with the British at that time (and was also being armed by the Spanish) which is what drew the US into the Creek War (which apparently started as a civil war within the Creek Nation and became an extension of the War Of 1812).

The Indian Removal Act of 1830 was presented not as a policy to prevent a coming war, but as a means to "offer" western land to tribes "willing" to move "beyond the white settlements" east of the Mississippi River.

The Trail of Tears was the forced removal of several tribes in the southeast by treaty. The resulting Seminole skirmish occurred when Seminoles attacked a US Army base.

Manifest Destiny came along in 1845. Rutherford B Hayes in 1857:
"What a prodigious growth this English race, especially the American branch of it, is having! How soon will it subdue and occupy all the wild parts of this continent and of the islands adjacent. No prophecy, however seemingly extravagant, as to future achievements in this way [is] likely to equal the reality."
Honestly, I have a hard time believing it's really this hard for you people to understand the difference between imperialism and preemptive war. One does not look anything like the other.



I would say the whole cold war was pretty much one preemptive battle after another.

You would promptly fail American History.

None of Bay of Pigs, Iran Contra or The Soviet-Afghanistan War were even American-fought wars! That disqualifies them from the term before you even get into whether they were preemptive acts. They, along with Vietnam and Korea were what are called proxy skirmishes and wars with varied involvement from the US. In none of those Cold War examples did the US attack any of those nations (or occupiers of those nations) to preempt an imminant attack on the US (in fairness I admit I know very little about the DR invasion but I'd be shocked to learn it happened to preempt an imminant attack on the US).

But lets put all of that aside, since it actually doesn't matter, because we're not debating the history of preemptive war in the US. The disagreement is over preventive war and if you dont know the difference (and with all due respect, apparently you don't) then you'll have to catch up, unless it turns out you are yet another proud member of the ignorance is strength crowd.
 
1952The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 13:48
1950: Perm Dude, I am going to have to read the original document before commenting.
 
1953Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 13:52
Bring your tissues.
 
1954boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 14:20
Go reread the about the first Seminole war, it began by raid by Americans looking to incite a rebellion in eastern Florida after a similar tactic had been successful western Florida. And as no surprise the native Seminoles were not happy.



The Indian Removal Act of 1830 was presented not as a policy to prevent a coming war, but as a means to "offer" western land to tribes "willing" to move "beyond the white settlements" east of the Mississippi River.

really this laughable this is like saying slavery was offered as alternative to living in Africa. You mean it intention was to solve any problems with Indian by moving them to another place, that sounds pretty preemptive to me.

do you really want me to list the premtive attacks made by the US on native americans?

the sand creek massacre 1864 led to the Sioux Indian War of 1865.

attacks by the US Army and on Sioux hunting parties(and a US breaking of a treaty) led the Great Sioux war.

The Grattan Masacre was retrubion cause by killing of Sioux chief by a US soldier.

The Comanche Campaign's goal was to remove Indians tribes that had not relocated to reservations.

I can go on, the point is do you really want to keep defending this position?

None of Bay of Pigs, Iran Contra or The Soviet-Afghanistan War were even American-fought wars! because we only sent CIA and black ops troops? come on. you might and well argue that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are not us wars since we have extensively used mercenaries and worked to train there on troops to work with us.

But lets put all of that aside, since it actually doesn't matter, because we're not debating the history of preemptive war in the US. The disagreement is over preventive war and if you dont know the difference (and with all due respect, apparently you don't) then you'll have to catch up, unless it turns out you are yet another proud member of the ignorance is strength crowd. maybe you would like to define them for me then and give examples.
 
1955Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 15:20
They were not preemptive wars because they were not wars. They were not preemptive uses of force because they didn't preempt imminent acts of aggression.

Preemption means you attack before you are attacked in order to preempt an imminant attack. Attacking to draw the enemy into a broader war with the ultimate goal of annexing their land or ethnic cleansing is not preemption. That's imperialist or expansionist or possibly even genocidal aggression.

A strong case can be made that the Cuban missile crisis was a preemptive use of force since you had an expansionist USSR hostile to the US placing short-range nukes within striking distance of US territory. In modern times, this is not so different from an invasion force amassing on the border. Your Cold War examples don't work because there was no imminant attack to preempt.

Preventive war is attacking an enemy based on a perceived threat of attack. Turning local skirmishes into proxy wars was about keeping Soviet and Chinese Communism in check. There were no perceived (much less imminent) threats involving a Korean or Vietnamese attack on the US. The best modern example is GWB explaining that we cannot wait for the Iraqi threat to become imminent, that we must act before that point. Referring back to my original point, which for some reason is wildly controversial to some here, American war policy has always rejected preventive war - until 2002. Gaddis and other neocons make the case that there is no real difference between the two in defense of Bush's justification of that war
 
1956Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 15:24
Conservatives split on GOP's new 'Pledge To America,' unveiled by House Republicans Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2010/09/23/2010-09-23_conservatives_split_on_gops_new_pledge_to_america_unveiled_by_house_republicans.html#ixzz10NlL1Oke

Conservative blogger Erick Erickson called the pledge the "most ridiculous thing to come out of Washington since George McClellan."

Erickson blasted the document for not providing specific, long-term solutions.

"Yes, yes, it is full of mom-tested, kid-approved pablum that will make certain hearts on the right sing in solidarity," he wrote on his blog, Redstate.com. "But like a diet full of sugar, it will actually do nothing but keep making Washington fatter before we crash from the sugar high."


and....


Conservative commentator and former Bush speechwriter David Frum echoed Erickson's disapproval but said he's not surprised that the document offers nothing new.

"Did you seriously imagine that they would jeopardize the prospect of victory and chairmanships by issuing big, bold promises to do deadly, unpopular things?" asked Frum.
 
1957Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 15:31
Erickson is a bit of an ass (I've had some email correspondence with the guy). But he's exactly right about that document, which is more of a pamphlet than anything else.

Frum puts a nice hat on it. The GOP isn't about policy, it is about winning elections.
 
1958boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 15:55
The best modern example is GWB explaining that we cannot wait for the Iraqi threat to become imminent, that we must act before that point.

this has been listed as both and i think you want to read up on your definitions. From what i have read there is no clear definition of Preventive war and in general most wars get categorized as revisionist.
 
1959Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 16:04
From what i have read there is no clear definition

Care to share what you have read? All of the definitions I've come across seem pretty consistant to me.
 
1960Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 16:14
Also:

[Iraq] has been listed as both

I'm not interested in Iraq War apologist neocon attempts to to muddy the waters. The difference between imminent and perceived is the key. Some who are inclined to support of prevention will sometimes use inevitable in place of perceived, while still establihing a difference between inevitable and imminent, rather than deny any real distinction between preemption and prevention.

But all that stuff comes in the last 8 years. Those words didn't start to get twisted up until the 21st century neocons had to find ways to justify a policy which had previously been openly rejected.
 
1961boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 17:05
here one definition for preventive war: A war that is used to maintain equilibrium in the system.

this to mean clearly defines the cold war since everything was done maintain equilibrium.

wars included under the definition are all wars between the european powers in the years between 1848-1918 including WW1(though it has been also argued as a war of conquest).

others point to fact that preventive war is mearly name and that the important fact is the motivation and that preventive motivation arises when ones military power is seen declining relative to that of a rising adversary.

going by this definition america is never fought this type of war, unless you consider the cold war falls into this type of motivation. Which is say it does.

Is it still so clear? i mean by these definitions Iraq war, Afghanistan do not fall into that category. I guess you could argue that maybe Iran would.






 
1962Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 17:29
As usual I'm happy to let any lurkers decide for themselves.....

If I happened on this site, and started reading a few posts, I don’t know that I would want to be referred to as a lurker. Here are some well-known lurkers:

Freddie Krueger
Paparazzi
The Boston Strangler
Jeffrey Dahmer
Any stalker
The guy on Friday the 13th
John Gacy
The hillside strangler
Son of Sam
Gladys Kravitz on Bewitched
A peeping Tom
People in dark alleys

I don’t think I would want to be lumped in with that group.

 
1963Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 17:39
here one definition for preventive war: A war that is used to maintain equilibrium in the system.

You are fired from the definition sub-committee. No one would ever make an argument to the American people that - "we must go to war with X because they are a danger to our equilibrium."

If your response is, "well, of course, no one actually says these things.", then you are acting as the judge of the "real" reasons we go to war and your definition is therefore meaningless. "Preventive War is when we go to war to maintain an equilibrium and I'll tell you when we do that." No, thanks.
 
1964Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 18:10
post 1962 is bewildering.

almost to the point of where i can't imagine it being anything other than sarcasm.

the term "lurker" on message boards dates back to the mid 1980s. i don't even need to link to anything to know that if you google "lurker", the first few definitions will be just that.
 
1969Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Sep 24, 2010, 00:31
hey...don't get mad at me because you didn't know something was in the common vernacular.

now, back on topic.


The GOP's Hooey to America

 
1971chode
      ID: 4744089
      Fri, Sep 24, 2010, 10:36
Re: 1966

Was it 'derogatory' and 'demeaning' for TLB to refer to other posters as 'lurkers' in post 1937? Or is his use of that word acceptable, but it's only MITH's that's not? Just curious.

What a worthless non-issue.

 
1978Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 24, 2010, 11:40
Come see the new thread.. Now with 1/3 fewer personal attacks!
 
1979boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Sep 24, 2010, 11:58
re 1965:

hans J Morgenthau, politics among nations.
AFK Organski, World Politics
stephen Van Evera, The Causes of wars,"
Jack S. Levy, Declining Power and the Preventive Motivation for War.