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0 Subject: The Direction of the GOP II or campaign 2008

Posted by: Seattle Zen
- [49112418] Tue, Jan 02, 2007, 18:27

Giuliani can't be trusted with nuclear secrets.
As former Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani was campaigning for Republican candidates last fall, his aides were secretly planning a Giuliani presidential campaign despite his statements to the contrary, targeting potential donors and assessing possible liabilities, including his controversial former aide, Bernard B. Kerik, and his ex-wife Donna Hanover, according to a 140-page strategy document apparently prepared by Giuliani advisers. The document had been stolen, photocopied, and then returned in a piece of luggage belonging to a staff member that had gone missing.

The public disclosure of the document, which was leaked by a Giuliani adversary to The Daily News, is potentially damaging for Mr. Giuliani, given that he has portrayed himself as a leader on security issues and strategic planning. He gained a reputation as mayor for tightly controlling and shaping public information; such a security breach in any presidential operation, but especially his, stands as an unusual embarrassment, as well as a boon to his potential opponents who want to know his thinking.

Well, at least one Republican has an exit strategy.

One page in the document, according to The News, notes that he might “drop out of [the] race” as a result of “insurmountable” personal and political concerns. On this page, The News says, is a list of bullet points that seem to highlight those concerns: His consulting practice; Mr. Kerik; Ms. Hanover; his third and current wife, Judith Nathan Giuliani; and “social issues,” apparently a reference to his support for abortion rights, gay civil unions and gun control, all of which are opposed by some Republicans.

I'm of two camps. One is in favor of a Giuliani campaign - his "centrist" views on gay rights, abortion and gun control will get viciously attacked which will appall the majority of America, casting the GOP as a den of Rovian right wing zealots. The other camp is terrified by the mere possibility of a Giuliani presidency. I've despised that pig for as long as I've known him, he has a dangerous temper and no known morals.
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1919Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Mon, Sep 20, 2010, 19:44
Through 225 years of American history, our foreign policy has stood consistantly and firmly opposed to preventive war. Perhaps you are misapplying the term 'warmonger'? At this point I have no idea what you mean by it, except that it's something that Karl Rove and RINOs are, but that Rush Limbaugh and supporters of preventive war against Iran are not.
1920The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 10:05
You do not answer my questions but you want me to answer yours?
1921Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 10:38
Actually I had two questions for you, both from 4 days ago in posts 1899. The question you posed yesterday was responded to, with an explanation that the point it attempts fails it's purpose of defending an attack on Iran as something other than "warmongering". If you want to further change the topic to a discussion about the best way to deal with Iran, we have more than one thread better suited for and already housing discussion about that topic than this one, which is about the direction of a political party which currently does not control American foreign policy.

So Im sorry my response yesterday did not include an answer about foreign policy, but that's a very complex topic which already has at least one more apropriate place to be hashed out. But I've waited quite patiently for responses to two questions I asked last week.
1922The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 10:59
It is clear you have no desire to answer that question to expose your own opinion on the matter but have no qualms in doing so to me.

Limbaugh didn't support the the war mongering RINOs over the same period?

I really do not remember. If he towed the party line then he must have.

And am I to take that as to mean that you opposed the Iraq war at the time, or that you regret it?

Yes. What did those people ever do to us?

This conversation is over for me, much like when you lost the stimulus audit discussion, until you respond to my question about you and Iran for reasons I have stated.
1923Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 11:03
This conversation is over for me

That's for the best if you are going to continue to pollute the discussion with off-topic posts and whine when those who respond try to bring the conversation back on topic.
1924Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 12:05
This conversation is over for me

at least you're honest about leaving the conversation when you're not really in it to begin with. Baldwin used to use the "i'm going to play some time-consuming online game now" excuse...
1925Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 12:25
I have two questions for The Left Behind:

A. How long have you been posting here?

B. How many posts directed at you have had to be deleted because they violated the policy on civility and respect?
1926The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 13:16
A. A month or so.
B. I lost count.
1927The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 13:29
This should not be a surprise Building 7. Liberals made their bones on the stop beating your wife school of argument. Either that or call people racists.
1928Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 13:34
Those lefties are lucky you respond to them at all, considering the unwarranted rude treatment you've received since arriving. There's really no excuse for that behavior.
1929bibA
      ID: 48627713
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 13:38
How would you stop that day from happening if at all?

If that isn't a stop beating your wife question, I don't know what is.
1930Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 14:06
As I've previously noted, Im pretty sure he thinks that phrase refers to something other than what it actually means.
1931DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 14:25
"This should not be a surprise Building 7. Liberals made their bones on the stop beating your wife school of argument. Either that or call people racists."

So, just for the record, you think it's OK for you to make posts like this but you dislike it when other people do the same thing only with specific evidence?
1932chode
      ID: 4744089
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 17:17
Post #187 in the mosque thread pretty clearly indicates to me that TLB does not know the meaning of the 'beating your wife' phrase. And I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt in that discussion.
1933Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 17:20
Republicans block bill to lift military gay ban

Senate Republicans on Tuesday blocked legislation that would have repealed the law banning gays from serving openly in the military...

...With the 56-43 vote, Democrats fell short of the 60 votes needed to advance the legislation. It also would have authorized $726 billion in defense spending including a pay raise for troops.
1934Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Sep 21, 2010, 20:03
Not just a block, they they decided to hold up the Pentagon's entire budget to keep in place a policy the military says it wants to scrap.

Like weapons systems made in conservative districts--even if the military wanted to they can't overcome short-sighted conservatives.
1935Boldwin
      ID: 15810222
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 03:10
Or conversely liberals said no freedom without Philidelpia freedom.
1936Wilmer McLean
      ID: 49816225
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 06:45
RE: 1919 Through 225 years of American history, our foreign policy has stood consistently and firmly opposed to preventive war.

Council on Foreign Relations Interview with John Lewis Gaddis

February 6, 2004

...

Q: Can I stop you on the word pre-emptive? I know it was used in the National Security Strategy of September 2002, but pre-emptive carries with it the thought of stopping some imminent attack. We now know in Iraq there probably wasn’t an imminent attack likely. Wouldn’t preventive be a better word?


A: The terms are confusing because there was a fairly clear and sharp distinction during the Cold War between pre-emptive and preventive war. In the Cold War, pre-emption meant imminent danger. Preventive was understood to be a more long-term question. I have always felt that these terms were not easily separated, that there was a kind of blur between them. And I think that is all the more relevant as you move out of the Cold War and as we get away from the context of nuclear war in which these terms were being used. The idea of pre-emption or prevention is not new in American foreign policy.


It’s deeply rooted in American foreign policy, going all the way back to the aftermath of the War of 1812. It was a dominant feature of our foreign policy for 100 years, coming all the way up through the early 20th century Roosevelt corollary to the Monroe Doctrine [that made the Western Hemisphere off-limits to European colonization]. There were no clear distinctions made between pre-emption and prevention in the thinking of that period.



I think we are actually back to a kind of situation which 19th-century strategists had to deal with: the danger of non-state actors who, with state support or taking advantage of the failure of states, might gain locations from which they could threaten American interests. There was a sense that these dangers had to be pre-empted or prevented by taking over Florida, for example, from Spain, or taking over Texas from Mexico, or, according to many historians, provoking a war with Mexico so [the United States] could take California to prevent the French or British from taking it later.


[Another example is] our interventions in Central America at the beginning of the 20th century, which were intended to prevent so-called failed states from providing excuses that might lead European powers like imperial Germany, for instance, to intervene. There is a long tradition behind this, and I think it obscures more than it illuminates to try to provide this pre-emption/prevention distinction from the nuclear debates in the 1950s and 1960s and try to make them work in this new situation.

...


-------------------------------------------------

Frontline Interview with John Lewis Gaddis

...

Q: How dramatic or new is this doctrine of preemption?

A: Well, the doctrine of preemption has a long and distinguished history in the history of American foreign policy. Our doctrine throughout most of the 19th century -- at the time that we were expanding along the frontier and confronted European colonies along the frontier, confronted Indians, confronted pirates, confronted hostile non-state actors along the frontier -- was very much one of preemption.

Preemption is how we took Florida. Preemption is, in some way, how we took Texas. Preemption is how we took the Philippines, basically, in 1898. So to say that preemption is an un-American doctrine is not right historically. However, preemption has not been the primary American doctrine for a very long time, and it certainly was not during the Cold War for pretty obvious reasons. Because preemption ran the risk, of course, of nuclear war, equally damaging to both sides during the Cold War. So, very little was heard about preemption, at least in public, during the Cold War.

But the idea is coming back, and it's coming back for some of the same reasons that it was there in the 19th century: because, again, we face a situation of domestic insecurity, of being insecure in our own homes and work places, which was the condition of frontier existence in the 19th century. So, in that sense, it's not totally surprising that preemption would come back.

...


-------------------------------------------------

Can a moderator start a new thread of "The Direction of the GOP III or campaign 2010" that doesn't take half a day to load on my Apple IIc?
1937The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 10:21
Wrong again Mith thanks to Wilmer.

The whole thing about me referencing "stop beating your wife" is my unwillingness to participate in the left's distraction technique of personal attacks and outright horrible lies about people. So parlance the language all you want lurkers and part-timers but that's the way I'm using the term.
1938Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 10:44
the doctrine of preemption has a long and distinguished history in the history of American foreign policy....

Preemption is how we took Florida. Preemption is, in some way, how we took Texas[not to mention California]. Preemption is how we took the Philippines, basically, in 1898. So to say that preemption is an un-American doctrine is not right historically. However, preemption has not been the primary American doctrine for a very long time


I would dispute the Mexican-American and Spanish-American Wars, wars started and fought for the sole purpose of land expansion, can be defined as 'distinguished' in the vernacular the author intends. Yet, at this point in history, Europe was busily colonizing the rest of the world, so getting in on the expansion game through pre-emptive military means that had nothing to do with defending the homeland was an acceptable status quo.

If one looks at Vietnam and Iraq as part of our 'distinguished' history of pre-emptive war, then the word 'distinguished' becomes so convoluted as to be rendered meaningless.
1939DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 11:39
"The whole thing about me referencing "stop beating your wife" is my unwillingness to participate in the left's distraction technique of personal attacks and outright horrible lies about people."

You make it sound as though this is exclusive to "the left", and also that you personally haven't engaged in it repeatedly. That would be a definite perversion of reality, to put it as civilly as possible.
1940Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 12:08
but that's the way I'm using the term

Shocker: ignorance is strength.

Wilmer

That's a neoconservative defense of the Iraq War made (explicitly, in fact) to blur the distinction between preemption and prevention. It's very telling that TLB would cling to this paradigm to discredit me, given that it is the polar opposite of the position he took on Iraq less that 24 hours prior in #1922 to explain his earlier characterization of the perpetrators and supporters of the Iraq War as warmongers; "What did those people ever do to us"?

Anyway, I've come across Gaddis on this before and not all of his facts are straight. The notion and policy certainly wasn't born in the cold war era. Lincoln wrote in 1848:
Before going further consider well whether this is or is not your position. If it is, it is a position that neither the President himself, nor any friend of his, so far as I know, has ever taken. Their only positions are--first, that the soil was ours when the hostilities commenced; and second, that whether it was rightfully ours or not, Congress had annexed it, and the President for that reason was bound to defend it; both of which are as clearly proved to be false in fact as you can prove that your house is mine. The soil was not ours, and Congress did not annex or attempt to annex it. But to return to your position. Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If to-day he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."
Hardly sounds like "our doctrine throughout most of the 19th century" to me. Further, the notion of 19th century frontier expansion as preemption (much less his sloppy preemption/prevention combo platter) is laughable. Manifest Destiny had nothing to do with self defense! It was justified because we rejected the very notion of Indian tribe sovereignty. In Florida, Seminole tribes armed by the Spanish were attacking American land in Georgia - the response was not preemption, much less prevention.

I don't have time to go back and research all of his examples but the stretching he's willing to do in these other cases leaves me skeptical that there is much substance to any of his claims. And even if he did manage to come up with some valid examples of 19th century preventive war, citing the forced population removal and near genocide of Native Americans by the US as justification for any modern policy should set off the crackpot meter.

Last, even if he were right about everything he wrote, even Gaddis would have to admit that the topic at hand: a preventive attack on Iran, involves far more relevent parallels with the challenges of the cold war than the invasion of Iraq, his justification of which is based on the diffierences between it and the cold war era's aversion to preventive war.
1941The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 13:07
Manifest Destiny had nothing to do with self defense! It was justified because we rejected the very notion of Indian tribe sovereignty.

Lol! Because if the nation does not exist in our eyes of course then it must not really exist.

a preventive attack on Iran, involves far more relevent parallels with the challenges of the cold war than the invasion of Iraq, his justification of which is based on the diffierences between it and the cold war era's aversion to preventive war.

How so?
1942Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 13:22
if the nation does not exist in our eyes...

The reference is regarding the stated justifications for Manifest Destiny, not the validity of them or it. Please try to keep up.

How so?

Now would be an apropriate time to react in disbelief. You are unaware that American foreign policy during the cold war was entirely dominated non-proliferation of nuclear weapons among our enemies? Exactly the same thing which dominates our Iran policy today?

1943The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 13:28
The reference is regarding the stated justifications for Manifest Destiny, not the validity of them or it.

Walks like a duck. Quacks like a duck. Are you disputing the validity of the Manifest Destiny justifications? If so, then you already know we have acted preemptively.
1944Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 14:28
This is painful. You're making up history as you go along to suit your arguments. What is it you could possibly think Manifest Destiny was designed to preempt? Preemption and prevention are defensive justifications. MD was the opposite - it was an expansionist policy which explicitly claimed the right to territory that wasn't ours - justified not not because sovereign Indian tribes would imminantly or most likely attack us, but in the name of cultural progress and for some, a twisted belief in some kind of divine right.

Please take a step back and look at the illogic you siding up with here. You're grasping at straws to defend this neocon warmonger's defense of the very warmonger policy you just criticized yesterday because you think it discredits my criticism an rejection of that same warmonger policy.
1945The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 14:45
This discussion is over. You will stop at nothing to avoid questions. Thank you for the dictionary explanation of Manifest Destiny.
1946Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 15:52
As usual I'm happy to let any lurkers decide for themselves whether the US has a long robust history of preventive war, whether that history includes the ethnic cleansing of Native Americans, whether preemptive war simply refers to any unjustifyable attack on another country and whether I'm the one who should be called out for avoiding questions.

And for the record TLB, you don't get to decide when a discussion here ends. What you actually mean that you have taken your ball and gone home. A wonderful promise which I dearly hope you keep.
1947biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 16:00
How on earth will we press on without the benefit of this self-proclaimed superstar?!!
1948boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 16:03
justified not not because sovereign Indian tribes would imminantly or most likely attack us

Indian wars were almost always justified by the use of fear that they would attack. And almost all cases Indian wars were viewed and preemptive strikes against a people who may or may not posed a real danger to the country.

You are unaware that American foreign policy during the cold war was entirely dominated non-proliferation of nuclear weapons among our enemies?

what are you talking about? i guess that explains the vietnam war, pay of bigs, Iran contra, funding of Afgany Rebels, invasion of the Dominican Republic....I would say the whole cold war was pretty much one preemptive battle after another.
1949The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Wed, Sep 22, 2010, 16:14
Now we know why Mith does not answer questions Boikin. When he does he is wrong!
1950Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 12:55
GOP puts out their platform, hoping people won't ask for details.

It is a platform with vague spending cuts, repealing some laws which actually save money for the government, and keeping the military spending machine cranked at 11.

The GOP must think the American people are as stupid as their hard-core base. They are simply unserious about addressing the problems that they themselves claim to be serious ones facing the country.
1951Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 13:07
Boikin

almost all cases Indian wars were viewed and preemptive strikes

This is false. By all means, which "Indian wars" were preemptive? If it was almost all of them, it should be very easy for you to provide information to support this claim.

Preemptive means you attack before an imminant attack is perpetrated upon you. As noted for example, the ethnic cleansing of the Seminole nation was justified by attacks on American territory in GA. Further poking around Wikipedia shows that they also fought alongside the British during the War of 1812, that possibly being the primary justification for the First Seminole War. The Creek Nation also aligned itself with the British at that time (and was also being armed by the Spanish) which is what drew the US into the Creek War (which apparently started as a civil war within the Creek Nation and became an extension of the War Of 1812).

The Indian Removal Act of 1830 was presented not as a policy to prevent a coming war, but as a means to "offer" western land to tribes "willing" to move "beyond the white settlements" east of the Mississippi River.

The Trail of Tears was the forced removal of several tribes in the southeast by treaty. The resulting Seminole skirmish occurred when Seminoles attacked a US Army base.

Manifest Destiny came along in 1845. Rutherford B Hayes in 1857:
"What a prodigious growth this English race, especially the American branch of it, is having! How soon will it subdue and occupy all the wild parts of this continent and of the islands adjacent. No prophecy, however seemingly extravagant, as to future achievements in this way [is] likely to equal the reality."
Honestly, I have a hard time believing it's really this hard for you people to understand the difference between imperialism and preemptive war. One does not look anything like the other.



I would say the whole cold war was pretty much one preemptive battle after another.

You would promptly fail American History.

None of Bay of Pigs, Iran Contra or The Soviet-Afghanistan War were even American-fought wars! That disqualifies them from the term before you even get into whether they were preemptive acts. They, along with Vietnam and Korea were what are called proxy skirmishes and wars with varied involvement from the US. In none of those Cold War examples did the US attack any of those nations (or occupiers of those nations) to preempt an imminant attack on the US (in fairness I admit I know very little about the DR invasion but I'd be shocked to learn it happened to preempt an imminant attack on the US).

But lets put all of that aside, since it actually doesn't matter, because we're not debating the history of preemptive war in the US. The disagreement is over preventive war and if you dont know the difference (and with all due respect, apparently you don't) then you'll have to catch up, unless it turns out you are yet another proud member of the ignorance is strength crowd.
1952The Left Behind
      ID: 66232012
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 13:48
1950: Perm Dude, I am going to have to read the original document before commenting.
1953Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 13:52
Bring your tissues.
1954boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 14:20
Go reread the about the first Seminole war, it began by raid by Americans looking to incite a rebellion in eastern Florida after a similar tactic had been successful western Florida. And as no surprise the native Seminoles were not happy.



The Indian Removal Act of 1830 was presented not as a policy to prevent a coming war, but as a means to "offer" western land to tribes "willing" to move "beyond the white settlements" east of the Mississippi River.

really this laughable this is like saying slavery was offered as alternative to living in Africa. You mean it intention was to solve any problems with Indian by moving them to another place, that sounds pretty preemptive to me.

do you really want me to list the premtive attacks made by the US on native americans?

the sand creek massacre 1864 led to the Sioux Indian War of 1865.

attacks by the US Army and on Sioux hunting parties(and a US breaking of a treaty) led the Great Sioux war.

The Grattan Masacre was retrubion cause by killing of Sioux chief by a US soldier.

The Comanche Campaign's goal was to remove Indians tribes that had not relocated to reservations.

I can go on, the point is do you really want to keep defending this position?

None of Bay of Pigs, Iran Contra or The Soviet-Afghanistan War were even American-fought wars! because we only sent CIA and black ops troops? come on. you might and well argue that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are not us wars since we have extensively used mercenaries and worked to train there on troops to work with us.

But lets put all of that aside, since it actually doesn't matter, because we're not debating the history of preemptive war in the US. The disagreement is over preventive war and if you dont know the difference (and with all due respect, apparently you don't) then you'll have to catch up, unless it turns out you are yet another proud member of the ignorance is strength crowd. maybe you would like to define them for me then and give examples.
1955Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 15:20
They were not preemptive wars because they were not wars. They were not preemptive uses of force because they didn't preempt imminent acts of aggression.

Preemption means you attack before you are attacked in order to preempt an imminant attack. Attacking to draw the enemy into a broader war with the ultimate goal of annexing their land or ethnic cleansing is not preemption. That's imperialist or expansionist or possibly even genocidal aggression.

A strong case can be made that the Cuban missile crisis was a preemptive use of force since you had an expansionist USSR hostile to the US placing short-range nukes within striking distance of US territory. In modern times, this is not so different from an invasion force amassing on the border. Your Cold War examples don't work because there was no imminant attack to preempt.

Preventive war is attacking an enemy based on a perceived threat of attack. Turning local skirmishes into proxy wars was about keeping Soviet and Chinese Communism in check. There were no perceived (much less imminent) threats involving a Korean or Vietnamese attack on the US. The best modern example is GWB explaining that we cannot wait for the Iraqi threat to become imminent, that we must act before that point. Referring back to my original point, which for some reason is wildly controversial to some here, American war policy has always rejected preventive war - until 2002. Gaddis and other neocons make the case that there is no real difference between the two in defense of Bush's justification of that war
1956Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 15:24
Conservatives split on GOP's new 'Pledge To America,' unveiled by House Republicans Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2010/09/23/2010-09-23_conservatives_split_on_gops_new_pledge_to_america_unveiled_by_house_republicans.html#ixzz10NlL1Oke

Conservative blogger Erick Erickson called the pledge the "most ridiculous thing to come out of Washington since George McClellan."

Erickson blasted the document for not providing specific, long-term solutions.

"Yes, yes, it is full of mom-tested, kid-approved pablum that will make certain hearts on the right sing in solidarity," he wrote on his blog, Redstate.com. "But like a diet full of sugar, it will actually do nothing but keep making Washington fatter before we crash from the sugar high."


and....


Conservative commentator and former Bush speechwriter David Frum echoed Erickson's disapproval but said he's not surprised that the document offers nothing new.

"Did you seriously imagine that they would jeopardize the prospect of victory and chairmanships by issuing big, bold promises to do deadly, unpopular things?" asked Frum.
1957Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 15:31
Erickson is a bit of an ass (I've had some email correspondence with the guy). But he's exactly right about that document, which is more of a pamphlet than anything else.

Frum puts a nice hat on it. The GOP isn't about policy, it is about winning elections.
1958boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 15:55
The best modern example is GWB explaining that we cannot wait for the Iraqi threat to become imminent, that we must act before that point.

this has been listed as both and i think you want to read up on your definitions. From what i have read there is no clear definition of Preventive war and in general most wars get categorized as revisionist.
1959Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 16:04
From what i have read there is no clear definition

Care to share what you have read? All of the definitions I've come across seem pretty consistant to me.
1960Mith
      ID: 4982142
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 16:14
Also:

[Iraq] has been listed as both

I'm not interested in Iraq War apologist neocon attempts to to muddy the waters. The difference between imminent and perceived is the key. Some who are inclined to support of prevention will sometimes use inevitable in place of perceived, while still establihing a difference between inevitable and imminent, rather than deny any real distinction between preemption and prevention.

But all that stuff comes in the last 8 years. Those words didn't start to get twisted up until the 21st century neocons had to find ways to justify a policy which had previously been openly rejected.
1961boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 17:05
here one definition for preventive war: A war that is used to maintain equilibrium in the system.

this to mean clearly defines the cold war since everything was done maintain equilibrium.

wars included under the definition are all wars between the european powers in the years between 1848-1918 including WW1(though it has been also argued as a war of conquest).

others point to fact that preventive war is mearly name and that the important fact is the motivation and that preventive motivation arises when ones military power is seen declining relative to that of a rising adversary.

going by this definition america is never fought this type of war, unless you consider the cold war falls into this type of motivation. Which is say it does.

Is it still so clear? i mean by these definitions Iraq war, Afghanistan do not fall into that category. I guess you could argue that maybe Iran would.






1962Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 17:29
As usual I'm happy to let any lurkers decide for themselves.....

If I happened on this site, and started reading a few posts, I don’t know that I would want to be referred to as a lurker. Here are some well-known lurkers:

Freddie Krueger
Paparazzi
The Boston Strangler
Jeffrey Dahmer
Any stalker
The guy on Friday the 13th
John Gacy
The hillside strangler
Son of Sam
Gladys Kravitz on Bewitched
A peeping Tom
People in dark alleys

I don’t think I would want to be lumped in with that group.

1963Seattle Zen
      ID: 10732616
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 17:39
here one definition for preventive war: A war that is used to maintain equilibrium in the system.

You are fired from the definition sub-committee. No one would ever make an argument to the American people that - "we must go to war with X because they are a danger to our equilibrium."

If your response is, "well, of course, no one actually says these things.", then you are acting as the judge of the "real" reasons we go to war and your definition is therefore meaningless. "Preventive War is when we go to war to maintain an equilibrium and I'll tell you when we do that." No, thanks.
1964Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Thu, Sep 23, 2010, 18:10
post 1962 is bewildering.

almost to the point of where i can't imagine it being anything other than sarcasm.

the term "lurker" on message boards dates back to the mid 1980s. i don't even need to link to anything to know that if you google "lurker", the first few definitions will be just that.
1969Tree
      ID: 248472317
      Fri, Sep 24, 2010, 00:31
hey...don't get mad at me because you didn't know something was in the common vernacular.

now, back on topic.


The GOP's Hooey to America

1971chode
      ID: 4744089
      Fri, Sep 24, 2010, 10:36
Re: 1966

Was it 'derogatory' and 'demeaning' for TLB to refer to other posters as 'lurkers' in post 1937? Or is his use of that word acceptable, but it's only MITH's that's not? Just curious.

What a worthless non-issue.

1978Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Sep 24, 2010, 11:40
Come see the new thread.. Now with 1/3 fewer personal attacks!
1979boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Sep 24, 2010, 11:58
re 1965:

hans J Morgenthau, politics among nations.
AFK Organski, World Politics
stephen Van Evera, The Causes of wars,"
Jack S. Levy, Declining Power and the Preventive Motivation for War.
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