Forum: pol
Page 2970
Subject: Housing Bubble III - What the Frack now!


  Posted by: biliruben - [17502215] Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 12:31

Senator Obama has a RADICAL idea:

Actually have those responsible and benefited with massive profits bear some the risk and costs of clean-up

It's usually capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich in these circumstances, so this is truly radical.

nscrupulous lenders who deceptively sold subprime mortgages to millions of Americans should be fined and the proceeds used to help bail out borrowers facing a wave of foreclosures, according to Barack Obama, the Democratic senator running to be his party’s presidential candidate.

The proposal is among the most radical yet from a leading Democrat and comes as Washington tries to respond to a growing wave of foreclosures and a crisis in credit markets.

It also comes amid greater discussion in Washington on whether the mortgage industry – including credit rating agencies involved in rating mortgage-related securities – should be more tightly regulated to prevent a repeat of the crisis.

Writing in today’s Financial Times, Mr Obama blamed lobbyists working on behalf of lenders for obstructing tougher regulation of the subprime industry, adding: “Our government failed to provide the regulatory scrutiny that could have prevented this crisis.

“While predatory lenders were driving low-income families into financial ruin, 10 of the country’s largest mortgage lenders were spending more than $185m (€136m, £92m) lobbying Washington to let them get away with it,” he wrote, citing figures from the Centre for Responsive Politics.

Wall Street banks have also stepped up their lobbying over the issue of subprime lending as their underwriting practices come under scrutiny. It emerged this week that Citigroup paid $160,000 in the first half of this year for lobbying services from Ogilvy Government Relations.

Mr Obama said the government needed to “stop the unlicensed, unregulated, fly-by-night mortgage brokers who are hoodwinking low- income borrowers into loans they can’t afford”.

He added that “Washington needs to stop acting like an industry advocate and start acting like a public advocate”.


Radical.
 
1Perm Dude
ID: 678299
Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 12:59
Crazy talk!

Meanwhile, even the high-end stuff is getting hit.
 
2biliruben
ID: 17502215
Wed, Aug 29, 2007, 13:21
What I can't understand is who can afford even the bottom end of the Jumbos.

Here in Seattle where the median house is pushing 500K, they are obviously fairly common even with 20% down.

But our household income is in the top 10% or 15% for Seattle with little debt, yet we couldn't possibly afford a 417K mortgage. Our budget's tight at a third of that. Even fairly liberal front-end ratios wouldn't work without a stretch. This is a PITI of around $3300/mo. at 7% (which is pretty difficult to get).

Most of these must be interest-only or payment option Jumbos, is all I can fathom.
 
3Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 10:11
While I am no friend of ARM's, I don't see what makes the lender of an ARM loan unscrupulous any more than the stockbroker before the great depression who agreed to perform the leveraged purchases of the average man eager to get in on that bubble.

It's a tragedy to be sure. A friendly and stern warning during the process would have been nice, perhaps should have been legally mandatory, tho I am quite sure it wasn't.

Out of curiosity, what was the appraiser to do in all of this? Value the next house at the proven market price or more in line with larger economic realities and by what legal justification? And would it have been pragmatic? Could it have been done? Should banks holding more and more inflated paper have been hiring and insisting on such appraisers?
Should bank examiners have been demanding it?

I have been slowly doing the math...

Who ends up holding all the marbles when 1/5 [?] of all home buyers find out they were only renting? Did the lenders selling the ARM's manage to dump the majority of the paper off to investors?

Can it be proved that the guys ending up with all the marbles, planned and manipulated that outcome?
 
4Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 10:47
As an over-arching principle, the power-elite have always operated by selling the free passage to conduct piracy, something they have to sell by 'virtue' of having the corrupt power structure in their back pocket.

Is that what Citigroup was buying with their lobbying?

Francis Drake would have been the first one to recognize that just because it was perfectly 'legal' it could still be true piracy.

Accepted practice...hmmm.

How many industries are so corrupted that a man of principle can barely navigate a true path?
 
5Perm Dude
ID: 19758307
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 10:51
All of them.
 
6Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 10:58
Well, we are all enjoined to walk a cramped and narrow path, true dat...

But not everyone in their work-a-day world is faced daily with dilemas as accute as Sarge is trying to force on pharmacists for example. I am trying to imagine my son working in a loan department. What would he do? Some bright-eyed young couple walks in, can't swing the payments on a regular loan just yet...
 
7sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 11:06
lol nice attempt at an irrelevant snipe Baldy. I'd turn it around, and say not all are faced with the difficulties as you'd create by forcing patients to travel 50 miles for scrips, cause their local pharmacist is jamming his/her religion down the patients throat.
 
8Perm Dude
ID: 19758307
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 11:08
I think the problem is much more acute in the financial industries, where people's jobs are, essentially, to make money by moving money around.
 
9sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 11:14
hate to keep turning it to "my" industry...but in this industry, there are SO many disclosure requirements in place its bordering on absurd. For ex, in some states, dealer cost on Service Agreements are required to be DISCLOSED. The dealer F&I personnel, are required to disclose each and every detail of the financing being offered. So why is it, or how is it, that on home loans, the "seller" of the financing, is under far less federal scrutiny? And cell phone providers? I'd hate to give serious thought to how many hundreds of thousands of dollars monthly, consumers are bilked out of by that industry, through non-disclosure of the true terms.
 
10biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 12:29
I agree with your general sentiment, Baldwin.

The issue is one of transparency and regulation. Certainly not all mortgage originators of various stripes are unscrupulously trying to screw the borrower for gain, but certainly some, perhaps most over the last few years certainly were.

The problem as I see it is that the unsophisticated and knowledgeable borrower put their trust in brokers that for the fee paid they would navigate the difficult world of mortgages, and that they had a fiduciary responsibility to put the borrower's interests before there own.

This wasn't true, and I submit that it should be. We really need national licensing of mortgage originators to get rid of all this shysters.
 
11Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 13:43
Biliruben

Yes I know. We always agree. 8]

Do you really believe any of those buyers didn't know they were gambling that something would change over time to make refinancing to a regular loan more palatable?

My analogy holds to the leverage being used before the great depression. They were using this type of financing as a lever to buy more house than they could afford gambling that they could afford it later and reap the rewards of the appreciation on a nicer house than they could afford.

The case for the state getting involved includes, I believe, that this type of financing is part of the reason prices could inflate beyond what the market truly could bear.
 
12Perm Dude
ID: 19758307
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 14:10
Well, the word "any" is a very tough standard to meet. The role of the broker would be to minimize such risky thoughts, sometimes by lying.
 
13biliruben
ID: 17502215
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 14:39
Absolutely, Baldwin. I've been railing against flipers, "investers" and speculators for the last 3 years.

There was certainly some of that - maybe as much as 15-20% of the market in some of the bubbly regions.

They couldn't have done it without the financing, however.
 
14nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 14:51

Someone correct me if I am wrong. As long as you were in good financial shape, ARM's were a smart move when interest rates were falling, and when the rates were down low.

With a couple caveats.

They were smart as long as...you were allowed to refinance at any time with no prepayment penalty. You also had to be financially sound enough to afford the new "normal" 15 or 30 year loan once it became obvious that rates were going to rise. To put it another way, you should have been able to afford the 15-30 year loan from the start, but only be using the ARM for the additional 1.5 or 2% interest rate you could save.

In other words, you took the ARM solely to get an extremely low rate, not because it was the only payment you could afford.

Fed raising of interest rates are very easy to predict in this day and age with the financial experts having an incredible success rate in forecasting.

The problem isn't really ARMS. It people who used them (And sold them) because it is the only monthly payment they could afford. Or it was bought by people not savvy enough to notice when virtually everyone is saying "interest rates are about to go up, refinance and lock in".

My God if you are a smart investor ARMS would have been an intelligent 3 year investment and at the end you could have locked in a 15-30 year rate at the bottom.

It was almost a free loan for some people after tax deductions.


 
15Perm Dude
ID: 19758307
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 15:03
It was also a smart move so long as the market remained pretty much a "seller's market" (which, of course, were tied closely with the interest rates.

Many ARM holders had no intention of holding the loan through its life. If they could build equity they could just pay off the loan (prepayment penalty included) to buy up, so long as demand kept housing prices going up.
 
16biliruben
ID: 17502215
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 15:08
You aren't wrong.

I have an ARM, and other than a slight niggling worry that I will have trouble selling my house when I try in a few years, I don't regret it.

My estimate was that I would save about 8 grand over the 7 six years (max) I planned to live there. 8 gs is 8 gs.

My only worry is that I won't be able to sell, but I don't count that as a real possibility. I have over 50% equity in it now, so even if I have to slash the price, I can.

And even after the max adjustment (can go from 5% to 10%), we are still fine with the payment; it's even manageable on 1 income if we are really unlucky.

But I think you are right. In many markets people were being approved based on their ability to pay just the teaser. 2/28s with a hard pre-pay penalty could sometimes put 15K right into the broker's pocket. That's a pretty big incentive to screw the borrower.
 
17nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 15:10


Many ARM holders had no intention of holding the loan through its life. If they could build equity they could just pay off the loan (prepayment penalty included) to buy up, so long as demand kept housing prices going up.

But that is speculating and has nothing to do with the homeowner I described above.

 
18Perm Dude
ID: 19758307
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 15:14
Well, sure, nerve. The smart investor type could have used it in that way, provided that the ARM worked that way.

But with rising housing prices, most smart investors would have been looking to flip first, rather than hunker down on a low rate.
 
19nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 15:49

Right but I was simply talking about a typical home buyer who could afford the property they were buying...not someone who was in it to "flip".

 
20nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 16:55


Billi 16...you are probably going to get another break before the end of the year from the FED.

Why didn't you lock in when rates were low? Did you calculate the rates would have to go up ALOT before the rate would be "bad?"

I don't think you have a lot to worry about anyway. You're in a great market. You bought a mid price home, very affordable. That's the kind of house people will be looking for when they can't afford their over priced mansions.

 
21Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 17:04
I think there were a lot of people unrealistically depending on natural carreer path income adjustments [between 2 income earners surely someone would get a raise], paying down debt that really wouldn't happen before balloon payments and conversion to standard loan format were due, wishful thinking that inflation rates would forever be kept in check by the Fed [they have been doing remarkably well since Reagan took office].
 
22biliruben
ID: 17502215
Thu, Aug 30, 2007, 17:05
I thought about locking last year when the fixed rates dropped below 6, but given that we are certainly going to move before we see it adjust in 2011, the transaction costs weren't worth it for just a little piece of mind.

5% is 5%, and it will be that way until we move to a bigger house.
 
23nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Aug 31, 2007, 06:41


5% is 5%, and it will be that way until we move to a bigger house.

Oh wow that's incredible. You have that rate until 2011??? I don't think you have a thing to worry about. Even if the housing market worsens, that pretty much assures rate will go down not up and you'll have the chance to lock in close to that rate anyway.

There's no way housing in Seattle stays bad through 2011. Too many Californians who can't afford their houses want to move there.

Bili if you have 5% until 2011 I think you made a brilliant move.



 
24biliruben
ID: 17502215
Fri, Aug 31, 2007, 15:46
Bush's subprime plan, interpreted:

1. Immediate FHA assistance for people who are already 90 days down. Does this mean "up to 90 days down," "at least 90 days down," or what? Waiting to offer refi assistance until borrowers are in the foreclosure process isn't likely to make them want to go find the friendly neighborhood loan officer to do an FHA refinance. And by then, they've got a big chunk of past-due payments (not to mention possibly a prepayment penalty) to roll into the new loan. However,

2. We can't offer more proactive assistance to those who look like they're ready to default but haven't gotten there yet, because apparently after all this time we still need some more task forces. I'm guessing that we're still working on how the "more favorable rates" become available when the FHA insurance premium has to be raised and investors aren't exactly crushing each other in the rush to buy these loans.

3. But if you've already lost your home to foreclosure or short sale, you might get a tax break. This will "keep people in their homes" by making it less expensive for them to give up their homes. Or something.

 
25sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Sep 01, 2007, 10:48
287 city survey, shows home prices decline in nearly half
 
26biliruben
ID: 17502215
Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 17:40
The Economist: Heading for the Rocks

• Scenario 1. The Economist Intelligence Unit’s central forecast, to which we
attach a probability of 60%, sees the impact being contained by timely monetary
policy action, with only a modest effect on the global economy.
• Scenario 2. Our main risk scenario, with a 30% probability, envisages the
US falling into recession, with substantial fallout in the rest of the world.
• Scenario 3. Should the US enter recession, another, darker scenario arises:
that corrective action fails, and severe economic repercussions cascade from the
US into the world economy with devastating effect. We attach only a 10%
probability to this outcome, but the potential impact is so severe that it warrants
careful consideration.
 
27nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 18:48

Bili you're publishing a positive outlook?

That's not like you.

This report gives a 60% odds of a positive outcome.

I thought the sky was falling?

8-}

By the way...did U pay for this report?

 
28biliruben
ID: 17502215
Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 18:57
No, it's free, right? Can't you see it?

It spends the most time on Scenario 2, and anyway, I didn't say I agreed with it. ;)

I assume they just don't want to look too kooky, and I suspect, given the content, that they think Scenario 2 is more like 50%.



 
29boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 13:17
I just finished reading most of the of article, as allways the economist published interesting material. i find it interesting that the only really bad scenario is 3. scenario 2 is more of a short term economic slow down. which is probably a good thing i would think in the long term. I personally have no idea how it is all going to play out but i doubt my banker friend is correct when he believes his more senior bankers that that the houseing market will be back to normal by mid 2008 at the latest and this is in an area where the mediam house price probably rose about 400% in 10 years while income has stayed relitivy in line with inflation.

I am more worried about any govermental bail outs, there is no logical reason that i can see for bailing out people that made bad choices, call economic darwinism. No one is holding a gun to these peoples heads and telling them to buy the house, yes there where problaby some lenders that were like we will do what ever it takes to get you in that home, but the fact of matter is you have to be resposible for you own decisions. As for the corporations and what not that bought up the debt form the sub prime morgages they knew the risks. The ironic thing is that i would not be surprised that if 10 years down the road the people who bought up the the debt will make a fortune.
 
30Perm Dude
ID: 46827610
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 13:24
When they are lied to, however, that should be a different story. You assume that the decisions were made with all the facts presented, but that isn't the case.

 
31boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 13:29
if you are lied to that is fraud and i think they should just sue and or have them arrested and any ways I really doubt that the percent of people that were lied too is that high. I would like to see an example of how they were lied too.
 
32Perm Dude
ID: 46827610
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 13:33
You mean besides my example above?

There's no disincentive for these people not to lie, and there is loads and loads of money involved.
 
33Perm Dude
ID: 46827610
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 13:35
We also need to keep in mind that the government washing their hands of it will send a signal to many markets that the numbers will get worst, not better, and in financial markets (driven by perception more than anything else), this means additional losses for American companies and investers.
 
34biliruben
ID: 17502215
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 13:49
They attach an inordinate, imho, amount of faith in the central bankers. Unfortunately the central bankers are pretty much 1-trick ponies. They can raise and lower rates that traditional banks use to lend each other money. Unfortunately it's not the traditional banks that are in the midst of this crisis.

The hope, and there appears to be some evidence that this is happening over the last week, is that the ineffectual action will have a positive, confidence-inspiring psychological lift, preserving the illusion of control. If it works, great.

If it doesn't however, then it may be much worse than if the central banks and done nothing at all, as they will be exposed as impotent as the Great and Powerful Oz.

As for governmental bail-outs, I'm not sure that's what we are seeing proposed.

I think there were plenty of evil-doers that perpetuated, profiteered and exacerbated the bubble in all camps: borrowers, lenders, Realtors(tm), rating agencies, wall-street, main-street, backstreet boys, back-biters, nail-biters, nail-gun wielders, white-gold wielders, gold-bugs, bed-bugs, bed salesmen, car salesmen, fantasy salesmen and fantasy baseball players. All of 'em.

There are also some relatively innocent and unknowledgeable people who relied upon professionals to guide them through different aspects of this terrain, but were duped and robbed. These people run the gambit from the high-school dropout who bought a house with a tricksy loan in inner-city Cleveland go through bankruptcy all the way up to the nuclear physicist who trusted his financial adviser to invest his million in the "safe" Hedgefund invested in CDOs returning 12% a year, and lost everything.

I am apt to see if we can help the high school graduate find a loan he can afford to stay in his house, but I would hope we could find a way to pay for it through the folks who made trillions over the last 10 years peddling faux-dreams for profit. I dang well don't want any corporate bail-outs.
 
35boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 13:51
PD i am sorry i can find the example can you post the thread #?

We also need to keep in mind that the government washing their hands of it will send a signal to many markets that the numbers will get worst, not better, and in financial markets (driven by perception more than anything else), this means additional losses for American companies and investers.

so you are saying that if the government does nothing then the country will beleive that things are going to get worse? i would see it the other way around the government doing something tells me that something bad is about too or did happen and now they are trying to save us. I am not sure the government doing anything or nothing really sends anykind of message.
 
36Perm Dude
ID: 46827610
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 14:05
I think people are already worried and are looking for the government to do something (even if it is to clamp down on lying brokers).

They want to know that the government takes seriously the threat of thousands of defaulting mortgages, particularly since many of those mortgages were bought up and are part of retirement accounts.

This has the makings of more than just a re-adjustment of the stock market, I think.

My own example was in the last thread: The refi broker told up on the phone there would be no prepayment penalty, so we never looked for one in the document. Lo and behold, a prepayment penalty! This means that we have to keep the price of our house just that much higher in order to pay off the mortgage. The penalty for lying to us? Nothing.
 
37boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 14:30
Ill agree with you that the government should be cracking down dishonest/lieing brokers. though i think that if i am going to be putting out this much money for that long of time i am reading every word of that paper multiple times and probably giving it to friend to read over too. Also if i am buying home i looking at it like i may have to live here for ever what are the consequences and if i have to sell it i may lose money.

You may be right this could lead to an all out disaster, but i highly doubt it. there is still tons of money out there why do you think the stock market has been up in the past year? Because investors have been moving money from the realestate back to market just as they did the opposite in 2000.
 
38biliruben
ID: 17502215
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 14:53
...i think that if i am going to be putting out this much money for that long of time i am reading every word of that paper multiple times and probably giving it to friend to read over too.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Unfortunately you don't see the documents (and a flurry of 100 other documents) until they day of the signing.

That's part of the problem.

And the guy who lied to PD? He knew he couldn't possibly spend the time on the document that he should, because they don't give him that time.

And Wall Street told him in so many words: "if you sneak in a pre-pay penalty in that document and PD misses it, we will give you $15,000."

That is a lot of jack to bend your ethics, and many unscrupulous brokers made a lot of money doing just that.
 
39boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 15:47
Ill agree that is pretty unethical but i see no evidence that means there needs to be a bail out. you send those lenders to jail and/or fine them and allow the lendies out of the terms of the mortgage allow them to renegotiated with out fee. But for me to believe that the whole mortgage issue was cause by unscrupulous brokers is ridiculous.
 
40Perm Dude
ID: 46827610
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 15:50
You think thousands of really dumb people suddenly decided to buy houses? I'm only being a little sarcastic--a whole bunch of people who never used to be able to get mortgages are suddenly homeowners. How do you think they got there? By not reading contracts?

In the past, these people would have never seen contracts to overlook clauses from.

 
41biliruben
ID: 17502215
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 15:56
. But for me to believe that the whole mortgage issue was cause by unscrupulous brokers is ridiculous.

Why would you believe that? I certainly don't.

They were just one unscrupulous cog in a whole massive (and I mean massive), lending machine.

I repeat:

I think there were plenty of evil-doers that perpetuated, profiteered and exacerbated the bubble in all camps: borrowers, lenders, Realtors(tm), rating agencies, wall-street, main-street, backstreet boys, back-biters, nail-biters, nail-gun wielders, white-gold wielders, gold-bugs, bed-bugs, bed salesmen, car salesmen, fantasy salesmen and fantasy baseball players. All of 'em.

Personally, I think the boikins of the world were the most to blame, because of bad fantasy trades.
 
42boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 15:58
PD you really underestimate both greed and stupidity. If some offers to sell me there new BMW for 10K, i laugh and walk away i dont say where do i sign.
 
43Perm Dude
ID: 46827610
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 16:04
PD you really underestimate both greed and stupidity.

Nonsense, I'm just placing it where it belongs: The brokers got greedy and stupid. The demand is always going to be high for unqualified people to get houses. The difference is that the financial markets lowered their standards and started to lie to people to pave their own pockets with fees.

To take your example: There will always be a demand for $10K Beemers, but when brokers start selling them by telling people they don't have to even put any money down, or that they can sell the car in a year for a huge profit, then that is a problem in the supply side, not the demand side.
 
44boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 16:25
First off people should not be buying houses or cars on assumption they are going to make a huge profit in the next year that is just plane stupid and i would say most people thinking that did not need the broker to tell them that in first place. so basically you are saying we should reward the stupid by bailing them out, maybe you would like the government to bail out all the people that lost money in the dot coms, while you are at it.
 
45Perm Dude
ID: 46827610
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 16:32
so basically you are saying we should reward the stupid

Uh, no, not at all. What I'm saying is that these people were suckered. You can call them "stupid" but the truth is that they relied on promises and offers made by the broker. Did the "stupid" tell the brokers to lie to them? Did the "stupid" tell the brokers to offer them unsustainable mortgages, to lower their standards for acceptance, or to even come up with subprime loans in the first place? Pretty smart "stupid" people, if so.

Were the banks and brokers forced to offer the mortgages? Or to lie, for that matter? So why let them off the hook completely, as though the other party (often with no homebuying experience at all) is the "stupid" one?

First-time homebuyers might be "stupid" (or might not) but they trust what their broker says as being the truth.

Of course, since you don't know what my suggestions are to fix this, your whole premise kind of falls apart, IMO.
 
46katietx
ID: 58838612
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 16:34
Being in the banking biz and doing equity loans, I can assure you that people DO NOT read contracts.

Preliminary documents are given prior to closing and most folks do not have a freakin' clue what they say - nor are they going to take the time to read them. We are required by law to actually READ some document verbatim - people just zone out - don't hear a damn thing.

 
47Perm Dude
ID: 46827610
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 16:41
That's because they are looking at your tat...
 
48boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 16:42
PD i guess i am the stupid one here cause in my mind the concept of signing a morgage that comes any where close to unsustainable is pretty scary. Just with the BMW example i used, if think things sound too good i am the first one to walk away. I guess i just assume that everyone is as untrusting as me.

I will say this that they should probably educate first time buyers better, though in many cases these people were not first time buyers they were people buying investment properties and second homes.
 
49katietx
ID: 58838612
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 16:54
ROFL - um no they're not. Unfortunately in the conservative banking world (even in Austin) the tats cannot show. *sigh*
 
50biliruben
ID: 17502215
Thu, Sep 06, 2007, 17:45
Boikin - in some circumstances you are right.

There were certainly people stretching themselves, realizing they could not pay the fully amortized amount, essentially gambling that:

1) Their situation would improve by the time it would reset, or

2) Houses would continue to appreciate, and they could refinance by the time the arm reset.

The second option is what they were hearing from both "the professionals", their Realtor(tm) and their broker, as well as from their friends who had been doing just that for the last 10 years, and had made out just fine doing it.

The Realtor(tm) and the broker had strong self-interest to perpetuate this fantasy. The Realtor(tm) doesn't get paid until the deal closes and the broker is guaranteed a repeat customer a year or 3 down the road with the refinance to make another 15 gs.

The friends were blinded by a period of unprecedented and historic housing appreciation. When you see your house appreciate double digits, and your paper profits are hundreds of thousands of dollars on only a few thousand or sometimes nothing down, you want to brag about it and tell your friends about this "awesome deal"!

And it really worked. That's the thing. If you bought a house in the right area in the late 1990s for 200K with 40K down, that 40K turned into half a million dollars! What other investment returns more than 10 times your money in less than a decade.

That's sweet, juicy, Jesus-money, that is.

You are going to try and replicate it, and you are going to tell everyone you know and like to do the same.

But there are those who were also just plain didn't know any better, just wanted a house, and trusted their mortgage broker to understand the intricate and extremely baffling (to some) mine field of home and mortgage finance. Many of those were simply bamboozled; and often legally.

Those people should be helped, and as much as possible on the broker's dime.
 
51nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 07:37


They attach an inordinate, imho, amount of faith in the central bankers. Unfortunately the central bankers are pretty much 1-trick ponies. They can raise and lower rates that traditional banks use to lend each other money.

Well for one trick that's a pretty good one.

Unfortunately it's not the traditional banks that are in the midst of this crisis.

The hope, and there appears to be some evidence that this is happening over the last week, is that the ineffectual action will have a positive, confidence-inspiring psychological lift, preserving the illusion of control. If it works, great.


Actually to an extent the traditional banks are getting caught up because there's been an overall loss of liquidity in the total credit market due to the sub prime mess.

The "illusion of control" is to make sure that banks have liquidity to go about their normal business. That's a pretty good illusion.

If it doesn't however, then it may be much worse than if the central banks and done nothing at all, as they will be exposed as impotent as the Great and Powerful Oz.

What is it you expect them to do to meet your criteria of being successful? They aren't going to help people who took bad loans.

The Fed has already stated it's not their job or intention to use rate drops to help people keep a house who made a bad investment.

The rates were dropped because there was a lack of credit liquidity in the market for other investment and financial purposes. Good investors and banks were getting caught up in the sub prime mess. That's who the Fed is trying to help.

That doesn't mean that if this house of cards continues to crumble (subprime mess), and people lose there houses, the Fed is ineffectual.

The measure will be how does the economy that is not connected to the sub prime hold up. That is who the Fed is trying to help.

IMHO the Fed could care a less about someone who bought a house who shouldn't of been able to afford it, nor do they care about lenders who made stupid loans and Bernake has pretty much said just that.

So far everything is working fine (Housing aside and come on we all have known for years it was a bubble).

The early August numbers that have come in look surprisingly good so far, in fact part of the reason for the drop in the market Wednesday is because the beige book report for August came in better then expected and investors are worried that the Fed will not cut rates at the September meeting because the economy is doing to good.








 
52nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 07:47

And the guy who lied to PD? He knew he couldn't possibly spend the time on the document that he should, because they don't give him that time.

Bili sorry but that is just flat out wrong. You have every right to read every word on the documents your signing. No one has the right to tell you, you can't read the document.

I have no doubt there are realtor's who try to intimidate you, and use psychology to get you to skip reading the document, but that doesn't mean they can force you to sign without giving you the time to read it.

Many, many, many people bring lawyers to the signing and you better believe the lawyer reads every word. If I had a Realtor tell me I couldn't read the contract I would get up and walk out of the room and tell them to call me when they have time to let me read it.

It wouldn't be me telling them that though it would be my lawyer because I wouldn't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars without a lawyer looking at it, but that's just me.

Do you think they are going to tell a lawyer they don't have time for him to read the document?





 
53nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 07:53

Katie Being in the banking biz and doing equity loans, I can assure you that people DO NOT read contracts.

Preliminary documents are given prior to closing and most folks do not have a freakin' clue what they say - nor are they going to take the time to read them. We are required by law to actually READ some document verbatim - people just zone out - don't hear a damn thing.


Katie I believe you but that just blows my mind.

Frankly if that is the attitude someone takes when investing hundreds of thousands of dollars, it's hard to feel too sorry for them when the investment goes bad.

 
54Perm Dude
ID: 1481279
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 10:18
It is all part of the psychology being employed (and remember, the broker is in a position of trust). They throw lots of documents at you at the last minute and rush you through it.

pd
 
55Perm Dude
ID: 1481279
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 10:19
I meant to add that the buyer & seller should have draft paperwork no later than 24 hours before closing, IMO. Would love to see that proposed.
 
56nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 10:40


(and remember, the broker is in a position of trust)

Actually I've always heard the opposite.

I've heard that even though the broker is "working for you", they are really working for the seller because that's who pays the commission.

In the end, what difference does it make to the broker what kind of a deal you get? If you pay less for the house, they get a smaller commission. If you read the fine print and don't like the contract and the deal falls through, they don't get a commission.

I've always been told the only one you can trust at a closing is your lawyer.

But as you've already pointed out about me PD I am a cynic at heart. I go into every business situation trusting no one, and when someone is fair with me I am pleasantly surprised.'


 
57sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 10:43
Closing on the scheduled closing date would also be helpful. When we bought our house in Sioux City, the closing as I recall was rescheduled twice. Then finally executed something like 72 hrs before we had to be out of where we had been living. So here we were, looking at a stack of docs 6" thick, having to move the entire household, still having to go to work every day, having to prep the new place so we could occupy it, etc etc etc.


I am not saying that we were amongst those hoodwinked. We weren't. But I have no doubt, there are more than a few hundred similar scenarios across the country, where the rescheduling of the closing repeatedly, was used as a tool. Jam the buuyer for time, get them frustrated, keep them off balance, then at the last second when they have 3,000 different tasks on their minds, tell them, "sign here, here, here and here and it's all done finally."


I REALLY like PD, oyur suggestion of draft paperwork being provided. But I'd like to see it with a 7 day requirement, so that one has ample time for an atty to properly review it. Getting it at noon Thurs with a noon Fri slated closing, doesnt necessarily give ones atty the time he/she will need to properly review the docs and then go over it with you their client.
 
58Perm Dude
ID: 1481279
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 11:43
I've heard that even though the broker is "working for you", they are really working for the seller because that's who pays the commission.

The mortgage broker is working for the buyer, not the seller. The seller isn't getting a mortgage and would not need the services of a mortgage broker. Put another way, on a cash deal there would be no mortgage broker even though there is still a seller.

The broker fee is typically folded into the "closing costs," the buyer's portion of which are themselves typically (not always, but usually) part of the loan. Stuff like inspection fees, any mortgage costs, and so on.

On a re-fi, the broker is working for the homeowner and there is no other party involved (other then the lender, of course).
 
59nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 11:57


PD I was getting broker confused with a realtor.

In the end though, isn't the mortgage broker just "selling" you something (a mortgage)? Isn't that like saying a car dealer is working for you since he's selling you a car?

 
60Perm Dude
ID: 1481279
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 12:11
The broker is supposed to act on your behalf in getting you the best deal with the various banks, loans, and loan companies. But that is compromised (as bili notes many times) by the fact that his fee is typically a kickback from the companies he's selling the services of.

In stocks (as you know), this kind of conflict of interest has been attacked through legislation. But mortgage brokers don't have the wall of separation that other financial professionals have between their fees and the products they are negotiating for on behalf of the mortgage buyer.
 
61biliruben
ID: 17502215
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 13:46
Yes, Nerve. I understand what YOU would, theoretically, do.

As I've stated before, however, you are in the vast, vast, vast minority in this circumstance. It eagerly await your first home purchase, so your superiority can be put to the test.

I agree that a lawyer can be prudent, but there are also some disadvantages if he takes an antagonistic attitude towards the agents or broker. I've heard stories of them doing more harm than good and actually losing the client the house and/or costing them money.

There are times when you have to show at least a modicum of trust to get anything accomplished in this world.
 
62nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 14:05

It eagerly await your first home purchase

Don't hold your breath, it's not really something I've ever wanted to do.

 
63biliruben
ID: 17502215
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 14:25
You are wicked shmaaaatt. ;)

I thought similarly until confronted with a wife, kid, 4 cats and a big dog! Try squeezing all that into an apartment. It was a bit chaotic for a while there.

I even searched pretty extensively for an house to rent before buying that would be similar rent to a mortgage payment. No dice, even if I could talk 'em into all the critters.

In 2007 things are probably different, but that was the state of things in 2004, pre-50% appreciation on everything within 100 miles of the space-needle.

Now renting would be cheaper, I'm sure.
 
64nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 17:52


Bili if I had a wife and a kid I would buy a house.

clearly I'm mobile. In the last 5 years I've lived in Seattle, Los Angeles, San Francisco and now Dubai.

People who bought homes 7-8 years ago are still looking really smart, they've cleaned up.

Even here I could easily buy a condo in a high rise for under 200K right now, not bad considering my one bedroom apartment is 20K a year and that's cheap. Might be a good investment, might not.

It's just never been my dream to own property in the middle east 8-} ...although Dubai is the middle east like San Francisco is Iowa. (sorry Sarge, or was it Idaho?)

You are one lucky house owner to live in one of the only housing markets in the country that is still hanging in there.


 
65biliruben
ID: 17502215
Fri, Sep 07, 2007, 18:00
So far.

Seattle-proper only had 1.8% YOY appreciation in July, and August numbers are suspiciously tardy.

The Bellevue/Redmond is the main propping up the market right now. Microsofties still getting into bidding wars. 'Tupid money.
 
66biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Tue, Sep 11, 2007, 11:43
Great Stuff from Congressman Ackerman!

Originators then took these loans – many of which should have been assessed as much riskier than they were – and packaged them into securities to sell to investors. If there had been full disclosure, smart and careful investors would have judged that these mortgage backed bonds carried a disproportionately high level of risk. In an effort to deliberately mislead investors, however, some originators and credit-rating agencies, so-called Nationally Recognized Statistical Rating Organizations (NRSROs), colluded. First, the credit-rating firms would consult, or maybe we should say collaborate, with the originators – receiving high fees, of course – to advise the originators how to design the packaged securities to ensure that the riskiest piece of the product was adequately masked. Then, for another fee, the credit raters would assign overly favorable ratings to these mortgage-backed bonds, giving investors the impression that a neutral, unbiased party with a proven track record of assessing risk thought highly of these volatile products.



Essentially, the originators and credit raters shoved enough pigs and laying hens in with the beef herd that investors expecting prime ribs on their silver platter and money in their pocket ended up with pork ribs on their paper plate and egg on their face. The credit-rating firms were double-dipping; profiting first from helping to put these shady securities together, and then collecting fees for deliberately rating these risky products at a higher value than they were worth. It’s like hiring a judge to advise you as to how to commit an act and then paying him to decide whether you have committed a crime. My strong view is that NRSROs conspired with financial institutions to fool investors by packaging and rating securitizations in a manner that was deliberately aimed at misleading them. This is the accounting firm telling shareholder companies how to fool their investors and then getting hired as independent auditors.



That's not the free market at work. That's fraud. Fraud is a crime, not a correction.


I'm don't know if I would blame this all on the ratings agencies, though they certainly deserve a share. However, I do like his tortured metaphor very much!
 
67nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Tue, Sep 11, 2007, 17:51


That's not the free market at work. That's fraud. Fraud is a crime, not a correction.

Right but that is only one small part of the story. The other Bigger part is that interest rates were extremely low and this caused monthly house payments to be lower for a particular piece of property. Therefore the price of properties appreciated more then they were logically worth.

Then on top of that people were sold mortgages that were not fixed rates and were destined to go up dramatically when rates inevitably rose.

That's the bubble. It would have happened even without the scenario described above.

 
68biliruben
ID: 17502215
Tue, Sep 11, 2007, 18:07
I agree for the most part, Nerve, but when you say...

Then on top of that people were sold mortgages that were not fixed rates and were destined to go up dramatically when rates inevitably rose.

...would have happened, I'm not so sure that's true. Certainly not to the extent it did, because the rating agencies were complicit in providing sucke.., er, buyers/investors for those dubious mortgages.

Before the securitization craze, banks would generally hold onto these things themselves, and therefore they were much more picky about who they would lend money to. Over the last few years, it was "Have a pulse? Have a mortgage!", because rating agencies and had convinced investors that through securitization you could slice and dice the risk away. Utter nonesense, but a lot of folks bought these things who normally wouldn't have.
 
69nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Wed, Sep 12, 2007, 05:07



Certainly not to the extent it did, because the rating agencies were complicit in providing sucke.., er, buyers/investors for those dubious mortgages.

Yeah and this is the part of the story that may actually result in prosecutions. There's some people who incorrectly rated these investments and it's becoming clear the deception was probably intentional.

Now these are some big time investors they are deceiving. It's their job (Moody's and SP) to rate correctly and honestly. If there was intentional inaccurate ratings some heads are going to roll.



 
70biliruben
ID: 17502215
Wed, Sep 12, 2007, 13:45
I don't really care whether heads will roll or not. I just want to somehow get the folks who made trillions in lucrative fees and bonuses during the run-up to pay for softening the blow of the looming abyss.

I won't hold my breath.
 
71Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Wed, Sep 12, 2007, 14:20
This thread...or series of threads...has got to rank as some of our best work.
 
72nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Thu, Sep 13, 2007, 09:42


This thread...or series of threads...has got to rank as some of our best work.

I went back to the first thread. You started it on December 09, 2004 Baldwin.

 
73Perm Dude
ID: 35848138
Thu, Sep 13, 2007, 09:49
Was just kicking some ideas around in my head this morning in the shower. Yeah, I know, I'm a geek. But I wonder if anyone has proposed some kind of broker commission reserve for mortgages sold as subprime? In other words, to hold back, say, 80% of a commission as a reserve, then pay it out 25% each year that the loan is still good. If the loan defaults, the remainder of the commission in reserve is forfeited, maybe to the borrower who paid it in the first place (or, in the case of no-down loans, to some other entity).

Book publishers do this all the time. It is called a "reserve against return" and typically would last only the first couple of years after a book's publication.

Just kicking this around...
 
74biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Thu, Sep 13, 2007, 11:40
Sounds reasonable to me, but I'm sure the brokers, their lobbyists or the congressmen in their pockets probably don't think so.
 
75boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, Sep 13, 2007, 11:54
That does sound like a good idea PD and i am sure the lender of the money would like this idea sense this would probably decrease the chances that they took on a bad loan.
 
76biliruben
ID: 17502215
Thu, Sep 13, 2007, 15:31
Greenspan: "I didn't really get it."

No shit?
 
77biliruben
ID: 17502215
Thu, Sep 13, 2007, 15:31
We have the freedom to cuss now?
 
78biliruben
ID: 17502215
Thu, Sep 13, 2007, 15:47
Back in February, 2004...

"American consumers might benefit if lenders provided greater mortgage product alternatives to the traditional fixed-rate mortgage," Greenspan said.

...and in the upcoming interview on 60 minutes:

While I was aware a lot of these practices were going on, I had no notion of how significant they had become until very late, he tells Stahl. I really didnt get it until very late in 2005 and 2006.

...and last fall:

Oct. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said the ``worst may well be over'' for the U.S. housing industry that's suffering its worst downturn in more than a decade.

Greenspan, speaking at a conference in Calgary today, pointed to a ``flattening out'' of weekly mortgage applications after they went down ``very dramatically.''


Dude's either senile or bought and paid for.
 
79biliruben
ID: 17502215
Fri, Sep 14, 2007, 12:09
It's not just in Cali anymore.

Another bank run, this time in London.

Hundreds of Northern Rock Plc customers crowded into branches in London today to pull out their savings after the mortgage-loan provider sought emergency funding from the Bank of England ...



This, after the bank of England came out with a statement the previous day saying they wouldn't bail out banks with large infusions of liquidity:

In a letter to McFall's committee on Wednesday, BoE Governor Mervyn King warned that providing short-term liquidity to the financial markets while they were experiencing trouble served to encourage "excessive risk-taking and sows the seeds of a future financial crisis".

"The provision of large liquidity facilities penalises those financial institutions that sat out the dance, encourages herd behaviour and increases the intensity of future crises."

WTF?
 
80biliruben
ID: 17502215
Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 14:37
Bank of America: We have only seen the very smallest tippy-tip of the Iceberg.

Nasty.

 
81Perm Dude
ID: 39858209
Thu, Sep 20, 2007, 14:42
Spring 08 is going to be a tough couple of months for housing. I'm guessing that realtors' phones are going to start ringing off the hook in January & February as people try to squirm out of their ARM sub-prime mortgages.
 
82Perm Dude
ID: 7822111
Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 15:26
The New Dems (including Sen. Clinton, and now Sen Obama) are proposing mortgage interest deductions for taxpayers who don't itemize.
 
83biliruben
ID: 17502215
Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 15:31
Just make it a credit, or better yet; do away with it entirely.
 
84Perm Dude
ID: 7822111
Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 15:52
That's what Barack Obama proposed recently, though it seems to me to be kind of tiny.

I'll create a mortgage interest credit so that both itemizers and non-itemizers get a break. This will immediately benefit 10 million homeowners in America. The vast majority of these are folks who make under $50,000 per year, who will get a break of 10 percent of their mortgage interest rate. For most middle class families, this will add up to about $500 each year. This credit will also extend a hand to many of the millions of Americans who are stuck in the subprime crisis by giving them some breathing room to refinance or sell their homes.

I suppose this is in lieu of the current deduction. And I think he means "10 percent of their mortgage interest costs" rather than interest rate, but it's clear what he's trying to say.
 
85biliruben
ID: 17502215
Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 17:08
10 percent of your interest as a credit, and cap it at the conforming level (currently 417K), and I might go along. Anyone paying a jumbo doesn't need any tax credits, but I'll give them up to 417K for political expedience.
 
86nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 19:01


I just talked to my friend who works for country wide, been there 5+ years...he's looking at a layoff next week.

2 kids, wife, big mortgage.

 
87biliruben
ID: 17502215
Fri, Sep 21, 2007, 19:45
There are going to be an increasing number of extremely sad stories like your friends, Nerve.

That's part of the reason why I started howling about this over 4 years ago. If it was evident to a layman like me that something was very wrong, and getting wronger by the day, than it should have been evident to folks like Al "I didn't get it" Greenspan. Hedid get it, he just didn't care, because he figured only the little guy will take it in the shorts, and Greenspan's a libertarian social-Darwinist at heart.

Farken Sock-kickin' Bastard.
 
88nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 13:15
Bili I don't know what you're so traumatized about...this is from CNN Money website.

While California suffers in the housing crisis, the economy of nearby Washington state is flourishing with strong job growth and some of the highest appreciation in home prices in the nation.

The outlook for Washington's economy is bright because so many people are moving there in response to help-wanted advertisements. Seattle, the state's biggest city, is an especially hot job market, boosting confidence of sustained growth.

Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen's Vulcan Inc., for instance, sees few obstacles to turning Seattle's South Lake Union area into a thriving residential neighborhood, given Washington state's economic strength.

Lori Mason Curran, market research manager at Vulcan Real Estate, expects 135,000 people will move into the Seattle market over the next five years, propelling demand for housing that Vulcan's property unit is building in South Lake Union.

Vulcan Real Estate's foray into building office property in the industrial and warehouse area "on spec," or without guarantees of leases, will also pay off because of healthy population and job growth, she predicts.

"Seattle is really, really strong on both fronts," she told Reuters during a telephone interview on Tuesday.

Brisk hiring, especially by manufacturers, builders and software companies, is propelling that growth, said Victor Moore, the state's budget director.




 
89biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Sat, Sep 22, 2007, 14:48
You assume stock analysts are crooked, yet you listen rapt to spec developer's dreamy forecasts?

Please.
 
90Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 10:00
Nerveclinic: I just talked to my friend who works for country wide, been there 5+ years...he's looking at a layoff next week.

2 kids, wife, big mortgage.


What kind of mortgage?
 
91nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 17:34


What kind of mortgage?

ha

country wide of course.

Hi quality but big monthly with loss of income pending the severance which so far, based on the earlier layoffs, have been next to nothing.

 
92nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Sun, Sep 23, 2007, 17:38

You assume stock analysts are crooked, yet you listen rapt to spec developer's dreamy forecasts?

The overall article wasn't written by a spec developer and most of it was just reporting statistical facts.

Almost every article I read about the housing crisis lists Seattle as one of the few areas spared so far.

 
93biliruben
ID: 17502215
Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 12:06
Of course things are currently rosy - housing prices haven't yet started to decline here.

As soon as they do, and I think it will be relatively soon, the local economy will be effected substantially.

 
96biliruben
ID: 579411512
Wed, Nov 07, 2007, 18:12
Nearly 4 years after I expressed amazement and concern over the price of housing in Seattle in post 34 of this thread, prices have finally stopped defying gravity.



I went ahead and bought a house, despite my misgivings, 3 and a half years ago. I'm glad I didn't wait!

Is it irony that Seattle is pretty much the last metro area to succumb to the bursting bubble? I wish Mr. President were around to help me with the definition of irony. I also wish Madman were around to tell me he had it all figured out years ago. ;)

Goes to show you that even if you know what should happen, it's much harder to try and figure out when it will happen.
 
97biliruben
ID: 579411512
Wed, Nov 07, 2007, 18:38
BTW, there is now an extremely popular Seattle Bubble blog, from which I took the above graph.

Very well run with great contributors, and the bain of (almost) all who make a living from real estate in the Seattle area.

They generally hate it with a white-hot passion, and blame it for destroying their livelihoods. Pretty silly, I know.
 
98The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Wed, Nov 07, 2007, 18:48
I'm actually close to the other major metro that hasn't started a price decline according to most measures - Charlotte, NC. I've got to believe that with the financial industry fallout hitting some of the key employers in town (BofA, Wachovia, LendingTree to name just a few that have started layoffs) that it will soon follow the rest of the country. As to the extent, it's difficult to say. There's been an influx from other areas of the country and population is booming there and in other nearby towns, but there's no shortage of land in surrounding areas available for development that is within commuting range.

I need to practice writing more and sharpening my ability to argue effectively (in the best sense), so I plan to post more in the forum here. It's frankly kind of intimidating to post here due to the quality of the minds that work here and how effectively they are able to find the weak spot in a statement and hammer on it, yet it's kind of cheating to only read and never post, eh? I'm not looking to convince anyone that I know it all and am willing to change my mind if I'm convinced by the evidence that it is warranted. Feel free to call me on that down the road. :)

I figured I'd start in an area I've been studying extensively recently. My fiancee and I started seriously looking at housing in late 2006, and my research quickly led me to most of the housing blogs and sites referenced, as well as several others (I have an entire Netvibes tab devoted just to housing news).

It is my feeling that the bubble blogs are mostly correct in the thought that we are set to see historic declines in the housing market. However, I believe the speed of the Internet has fooled many of them to believe that changes will occur rapidly and have led them to overstate their time lines. I think that too many people have a vested interest to let things decline without fighting it with everything they have, so I expect many fits and starts as prices revert to historical norms.

With that said, I think the recent credit market activity is having a significant impact on real estate and exacerbates the trends that are already underway in most locales. I haven't seen a plan for a way out that I consider to have more than a remote chance of working.

Despite being the biggest housing bear by far that I know in person, we ended up buying a house on a 30-year fixed with 20% down in August that fit our criteria (decently far away from other people, within commuting distance for both of us when we get married next year, well within our price range, and structural factors too numerous to mention). We also bought in a rural area and the house we bought has only appreciated slightly over 3% per year over the past 10 years, so I think that any decline to its value is likely to be modest. Since we plan to live there long term, I'm not terribly concerned.

I look forward to the majority of home purchases meeting the criteria that we used in buying our house. It's clear to me that the rapid appreciation of prices has had many ill effects that need correction.
 
99Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Wed, Nov 07, 2007, 18:58
Since we plan to live there long term, I'm not terribly concerned.

Your lack of concern is wise. Every housing market decline can be weathered simply by not moving. The people who are most likely to take nasty hits are those who have to move shortly after they purchased.

Don't limit your bold, new attitude of posting to boring threads like this :) Looking forward to other, well written posts.
 
100biliruben
ID: 579411512
Wed, Nov 07, 2007, 19:06
I believe the speed of the Internet has fooled many of them to believe that changes will occur rapidly and have led them to overstate their time lines. I think that too many people have a vested interest to let things decline without fighting it with everything they have, so I expect many fits and starts as prices revert to historical norms.

I agree, but I think the a bigger reason for a slow decline is that people don't like to "lose" money, and if they don't have to sell, they won't unless they get the price the imagine their house is worth.

If Jo and Betty down the street got 400K last year for the same house as ours, but we have the granite counter-tops and mature trees, I'm going to scoff when someone offers me 375K.

If you look at LA's last big crash in the early 90's price changes went negative, accounting for inflation, for nearly 6 years before you started seeing appreciation again.

We are in uncharted territory here, however. There has never been a run-up for so long and for so high as we've seen today. Japan took 15 years to correct. My guess is that better statistics and more transparency, partly due to the internet, may cause a quicker and deeper crash now rather than what has been seen in the past, but it's really hard to predict.

My plan is to start shopping for a bigger house around 2010, as the majority of LA's declines happened in the 1st 2-3 years, but I am going to keep my options open and keep my finger as close to the pulse of the market as possible.

It sounds like you will be just fine, Beezer. Even if your house declines in value, as long as you can keep up with the mortgage, it shouldn't have any effect on you, beyond psychological.

How quickly to Charlotte appreciate during the boom years?

Glad to hear you are going to post more. Quality posters with well thought-out ideas are always a welcome addition!
 
101The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Wed, Nov 07, 2007, 20:09
Thanks guys. We're set up pretty well finance wise, paying much less than historic guidelines on housing as % of income, and we really love where we bought, so no worries here. I'm not looking to fund my retirement from it, I just want a nice place that I enjoy being.

I looked at the Case-Shiller data I downloaded a few months back and since January 2000, Charlotte prices had cumulatively risen 29.43% as of January 2007. This compares to 179.42% in Miami and 168.68% in LA on the high end, and 17.96% in Detroit and 18.83% in Cleveland (Dallas was the only other metro in the 20 city index below Charlotte). Seattle stood at 83.92% for the same time frame.

Overall, the price appreciation in Charlotte has been much less than other metros, especially when you take population change into account (except for Dallas). The house we bought is actually about an hour outside of there and that area seems to have appreciated even less during that time.
 
102sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 10:25
You made I think, a wise choice. Being an hr away currently, with a population trending upward, could well mean being 20 minutes away from the outskirts of town in 10 years or less. Once that happens, and it becomes a 20 minute commute vs a 1 hour drive "to town", THAT IMHO, is when you will see the rapid appreciation. (So called "bedroom" towns, always seem to do very well property value wise, once the cities developments spread outward to within 1/2 hr drive or so. (At least, thats what I've seen historically throughout the midwest.)
 
103biliruben
ID: 579411512
Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 15:23
Cramer's head explodes again.

Calling Cuomo a communist. Sweet. What a clown.



What almost all of this craziness is about about is laying-off risk on some patsy of shell.

- WAMU claims that inflated appraisals aren't their problem. They have a deal with Freddie and Fannie that if the loans they sell to them don't appraise, WAMU has to buy them back at par. WAMU says they laid-off that risk on EappraiseIT (subsidiary of American Home). Cuomo says "not so fast".

- The big investment banks claimed that they had laid off the risk inherent in all the MBSs and CDOs in these shell SIVs. The investor market says "not so fast".

The big lenders had been operating under the assumption that they were laying off risk by letting the subsidiary brokerages write the icky mortgages and selling the nuclear waste to investors. The market is balking.

And all Cramer can do is whine about the party stopping.

Jim, those that make the money in the good times must, MUST, be the ones taking the risk when things turn bad. Otherwise this swell capitalist game breaks-down like we are seeing right now.

The sooner it's cleaned up, the better we will be as a country.

But it's going to hurt. Bad. And a lot of innocent people are going to pay the price. And a lot of those who profited from the game, and going to be sipping their Mohitos in the Antilles.

But we gonna get some of the shysters to by at least some of the damage. The more the better, and Cramer can just suck it.
 
104The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 18:28
Right on, bili. I wish this stuff would have come to light in '04 or '05 when it would have done more good, yet back then no one cared. So the appraisal was over by $100K? No biggie - the house will probably be legit at that value in a year anyway. As Buffett has said, "It's only when the tide goes out that you learn who's been swimming naked". It's probably going to start looking like a nudist beach out there before it's said and done.
 
105Perm Dude
ID: 3101888
Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 18:56
Agreed, bili. Bitching at Cuomo because he's not letting the lenders continue to make money: "Cuomo's about losing money."

Classic.

Cuomo must be a communist if he's throwing a wet blanket on banks lending money they shouldn't and shucking off the risk of bad loans onto others. What a whiner.
 
106Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Fri, Nov 09, 2007, 15:35


An hour outside Charlotte? Damn, that's the middle of nowhere!
 
107The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sat, Nov 10, 2007, 10:47
It's definitely quiet right here, SZ. Since I grew up on a farm I don't really have any interest in living in the city. As long as they have high-speed internet, of course. Plus I despise HOAs so housing developments aren't for me either.

I like to use the Charlotte Observer as my barometer for housing around here. Interestingly enough, the front page today is dominated by the writedowns and warnings by Bank of America and Wachovia (both based here),. The business section has a nice story about Beazer Homes (no relation) delaying payments to subcontractors, while the New Home and At Home sections have nothing on their front page about the housing market itself, which is most unusual.

Meanwhile, KB Homes has an ad showing a house marked down from $185,402 to $146,996. That 20% haircut does not sound like a booming market to me. A fair amount of other markdowns on new homes, low 30 year fixed rates being offered by developers, and other incentives dominate nearly every other ad in the real estate sections.

It will be interesting to see how prices hold up here over the traditionally slow months before next spring. Charlotte is set up to have a slow spring similar to what most other locales saw in 2007.
 
108Seattle Zen
ID: 529121611
Tue, Nov 13, 2007, 21:31


 
109Perm Dude
ID: 361055149
Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 15:59
Dems plan to make sub-prime lending an issue

Snore. Yeah, I know that it is important, but it is important as policy and regulatory issues, not as a campaign issue. The Dems get the federal government handed to them, and they are just too dumb to figure out what to do about it.
 
110biliruben
ID: 579411512
Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 16:59
As long as they paint it as a reason why smart regulation and enforcement is both useful and important to keep capital markets humming smoothly, I think it's a terrific campaign issue.

For too long the Republican push to privatize and deregulate has been answered by either deafening silence or worse: the Dem's agreeing.

If the message is:

Regulation is essential and beneficial to capitalism, and

Government is better and performing some tasks than private business,

Then push it and push it hard.

If instead, it's Republicans are responsible for the mortgage mess, it's a non-starter.
 
111nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 19:14

Bili Cramer's head explodes again.

Funny though, he was right the first time his head exploded.

Does anyone still think the Fed shouldn't have cut interest rates?

 
112biliruben
ID: 579411512
Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 19:39
Let's see where inflation goes.

It didn't solve the liquidity problem, you notice. Just provided a little psychological boost.
 
113The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 22:27
bili 110

Another bad outcome would be if the Dems start pushing bailout proposals like what Sen. Dodd was pushing early this year. I'm concerned that this is what will end up happening, because heaven forbid there are consequences for people and companies acting like morons.

Nerve, I don't think that rates should have been cut, but I'll admit that I'm no expert. My reasons include the following:

- the commercial paper market is largely frozen (as bili alluded to in 112)
- the dollar has gone down in value versus many other major currencies (which seems close to forcing the unwinding of the Yen carry trade which will not be good for a lot of market participants) and against most commodities
- the market seems to be pricing in continual cuts yet does not seem to benefit for more than a day or two when this occurs (again as bili stated in 112), which resembles giving a rotten brat candy to keep him quiet IMO.

Having said that, I fully expect the Fed to continue to cut because they are terrified of a deflationary environment arising like what Japan has seen since 1990. The one thing the Fed does not want to be is largely irrelevant, and deflation puts them much closer to that than they'd like to be.

What's your perspective on the benefits of the recent cut? I'd like to hear more about that.
 
114Perm Dude
ID: 5110311519
Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 22:35
Looks a little too late for this house

I was browsing through Cleveland homes, and honestly had a "WTF?" come out when I saw this pic.
 
115Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 22:51
You have to admit the $7 a month payment is attractive. I pay more than that for sattelite radio.
 
116biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Thu, Nov 15, 2007, 23:43
Beezer - I don't think they'll continue to cut, and I think they've intimated as much. I think they were genuinely shocked at watching the dollar's remarkable plummet after the last cut, and are taking seriously China's implied threat to start selling off their dollars.

Cleveland. The next Detroit. (I'd say Buffalo, but I have a fondness.)
 
117The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 05:42
I would prefer to be wrong about that, bili. The futures market seems to be going back and forth on this as well.
 
118nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 07:46

When asked if the rate cut was a good thing... (I've been for it since before it took place for the record)

Bili Let's see where inflation goes.

So are you making a stand? You've had two months to think about it. Were the rate cuts a good or bad thing. It's easy to wait around and make up your mind 6 months later.

Inflation? What about deflation? People are losing huge amounts of economic value in their homes. Not just sub prime borrowers, but people with good credit who have to sell into this market.

Inflation, maybe the least of our worries. Even so we've had two months for it to take off and so far the numbers look encouraging. Oil is up and food is up (partly because fields are being planted with corn for ethanol.) These were both trends before the cut though.

Other then that the numbers are within the Fed target.

The inflation rate uses rental property instead of home prices. Where would inflation be if the number included home prices....we might be looking at deflationary numbers.

It didn't solve the liquidity problem, you notice. Just provided a little psychological boost.

Didn't solve the problem? Where would we be without the cuts?

Let's not forget though the FED has said repeatedly they are not cutting to help those who made bad loans nor those who took them. They are cutting to try to keep this huge subprime mess from spilling the rest of the economy into recession.

Geez your a tough crowd. I'm not sure what would make anyone happy at this point.

Employment numbers are still hanging in there even with all the sky is falling gloom and doom. Growth for the third quarter was a shocking 3.9%

Beezer Nerve, I don't think that rates should have been cut, but I'll admit that I'm no expert.

That goes for everyone here...

My reasons include the following:

- the commercial paper market is largely frozen (as bili alluded to in 112)


Your saying this is caused by the rate cut?

- the dollar has gone down in value versus many other major currencies

Actually many economists are coming down on the side of a weaker dollar being a good thing. It makes USA companies more competitive. We are finally starting to reverse the trade deficit for the first time in a long time.

(which seems close to forcing the unwinding of the Yen carry trade which will not be good for a lot of market participants) and against most commodities.

This started to happen last week but when Japan announced it was leaving rates unchanged the dollar came back against the yen and stopped the "unwinding".

the market seems to be pricing in continual cuts yet does not seem to benefit for more than a day or two when this occurs (again as bili stated in 112), which resembles giving a rotten brat candy to keep him quiet IMO.

The rate cuts weren't made to "help the markets". They are made to keep the economy out of recession and keep people employed. Maybe the people who still have jobs are the "brats" you are referring to?

That having been said, what market are you watching?

Look a SP 500 chart from the first rate cut, 6 up days in a row. with the exception of a few down days the chart pointed almost straight up from 8/17 until 10/11 beginning at SP 1411 and hitting an all time record high of 1565.

I can only imagine what would have happened without the cut. Not that the cut is "for the market to go up".

Bili I don't think they'll continue to cut, and I think they've intimated as much.

What they have said at recent meetings is they will keep looking at the data and Bernake made an off handed comment that they may not need to cut again. That was before the latest rounds of banks marking down more bad loans and E-Trade on the brink of bankruptcy.

If things stay as they are now, I think they will cut in December.

It's hard to know this far out since they will look at the most current data at the time.

It will come down to two things. What is the outlook for the overall economy as compared to what they are seeing in the inflation data which up until now continues to look to be in a tolerable range.

I think they were genuinely shocked at watching the dollar's remarkable plummet after the last cut,

I completely disagree. I think the Fed and the US Government in general genuinely likes the weaker dollar and I think people should stop panicking over it.

Europe on the other hand is worried.

They are concerned that as the Euro gets stronger they won't be able to compete with us. Look at Boeing versus Airbus. 5 years ago you got 90 Euros to every 100 dollars. Now you get 145 Euros to the dollar. That means that Boeings plane are more then 40% cheaper then they would have been 5 years ago and the Airbus is 40% more expensive.

This is true of anything American companies are trying to sell overseas.

and are taking seriously China's implied threat to start selling off their dollars.

China didn't make the threat, it was a minor official who made an off handed comment. He didn't speak for the Chinese government.

China probably should shift some assets out of dollars. They have to be careful though, if they do too much and the dollar weakens even more, why would we buy their "expensive" goods?

We are their biggest customer.





 
119nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 09:04


Wow not 2 hours after I make my comments about the Fed probably still cutting rates in December we get this quote...

Interest rates are low enough to get the economy through a coming "rough patch," said Federal Reserve Governor Randall Kroszner on Friday.

Nice comments coming after the market has dropped 7% from it's highs, of course the Fed doesn't make statements to "help" the market.

 
120biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 09:31
No, I don't think they should have cut.

It was basically a giant salary cut and tax on assets for all Americans.

And what did it accomplish? A bit of a stock jump.

Economic health is not embodied in the Dow. In fact sometimes they are going the opposite directions.

Sorry about the doom and gloom, but I don't think the Fed can do much that will have any real effect at this point in the game. Just work to fix the rules so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again.

Make SIVs illegal. Make mortgage originators fidiciaries. Regulate and enforce.
 
121nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 10:35

OK Bili

I respect the fact you do have a stance on the rate cut. I thought you were still up in the air.

I guess I just don't understand how you know the cut hasn't had an overall positive effect on the economy though compared to where it would be without the cut?

Yeah the mortgage lending companies, builders and banks are still in trouble, but the rest of the economic numbers have at least to this point dodged the bullet.

Most of the negativity hasn't been with earnings reports it's been with forward guidance. The companies giving he guidance are assuming the worst for the economy.

Clothing Retail is slow but a lot of that has been blamed on warm weather.

Where would those numbers be without a cut?

I sincerely don't believe they cut rates to help the stock market go up.

If I was as negative about the economic outlook as you I would have put a lot of money into cash a month after the 50% rate cut.



 
122Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 10:52
Pat Buchanan's take:

But the Fed is responsible not only for the national economy. It is responsible for defending the dollar, which represents the real savings and wealth of the nation. And that dollar has lost more value in seven years than in any similar period in modern history. A euro, worth 83 cents the year Bush was elected, has risen in value to $1.47.

As the dollar sinks, exporters may cheer rising sales, but at home we will soon find that the prices of all those imported goods from Europe and Asia down at the mall are starting to rise. U.S. soldiers, diplomats, tourists and businessmen overseas are already feeling the pain of a falling dollar.

If a recession is generally a sign the Fed should loosen up, a run on the dollar is a sign the Fed should tighten by raising interest rates to make dollars and dollar-denominated assets more attractive.

But the Fed's raising of interest rates would push up the rates on mortgages, credit cards and auto loans, and push millions of marginal folks into bankruptcy and the country into recession, a disaster for the Republicans.

But, given their free-trade fanaticism and free-spending ways, that fate would not be undeserved. Say a prayer for Ben Bernanke. He may have to eat the football that scrambling quarterback Greenspan tossed to him far behind the line of scrimmage.

link
 
123Perm Dude
ID: 171052169
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 10:59
Interesting bolded comments. Buchanan frames them as if they are opposites. Maybe it is the somewhat at-odds natures of the Fed's different responsibilities that makes him put it that way,
 
124The Beezer
ID: 47755711
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 11:11
Nerve, I should have clarified that I don't think that the rate cut caused the commercial paper market to be frozen, it's that I was under the impression that one of the reasons for the cut (if not a primary reason) was that it was to help get that market moving again. Clearly if that was the intention, it has failed.

Unfortunately I think we're perilously close to (if not already) hijacking this housing thread with macro stuff. Since they are intertwined so heavily that's probably somewhat unavoidable, yet we should probably migrate this over the the market thread or start a macro thread to really hash through this stuff.

To bring things back on thread, from a housing perspective I don't think that the Fed should do anything to try to stop deflation in housing prices. Furthermore, I don't think they can stop it without a full-scale bailout which even then would only be a stopgap measure at best. It's clear that the Fed's ability to affect mortgage interest rates via the 10-year note is largely at an end (if it ever was truly possible).
 
125Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 11:22
the Fed's raising of interest rates would push up the rates on mortgages, credit cards and auto loans

IOW, it would encourage people to be more responsible, but responsible spending hasn't been a hallmark for either the government or the populace of this country for a long time. Perhaps a major shake-up is what's needed to bring fundamental sanity back into play.
 
126Perm Dude
ID: 171052169
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 12:04
I agree--combined with a crackdown on the other side of sleazy merchants selling credit apparati that people can't really afford.

Tighter credit will bring those sleazeballs out.
 
127biliruben
ID: 579411512
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 12:29
Fannie and Freddie just announced that they will be tightening lending standards for FICOs under 680.
 
128Building 7
ID: 471052128
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 13:46
Interest rates should be determined by the market, not by some unelected board of geezers. The federal reserve should be eliminated. The dollar has lost 95% of its value, since they took over.
 
129Perm Dude
ID: 171052169
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 13:58
Well, I'm not sure how you'd measure that. The Fed started, in its current form, in 1913.

And, in lieu of a Central Bank, the Fed does serve some function (and was developed in response to bank panics in the late 1800s and early 1900, particularly the Panic of 1907).

That all said, I think the problem is that the Fed just isn't serving as it should, and the effect (withering savings rates, large swings in available credit, etc) is, IMO, a net negative.
 
130nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 14:06


As the dollar sinks, exporters may cheer rising sales,

Yeah exporters owned by Americans who employee Americans who pay taxes in America.

but at home we will soon find that the prices of all those imported goods from Europe and Asia down at the mall are starting to rise

Well the dollar has been falling for 5 years. China et al. have been careful to drop prices to meet the devaluation. We are likely nearing a near term "top" in the devaluation. When is this huge price increase going to materialize?


....If a recession is generally a sign the Fed should loosen up, a run on the dollar is a sign the Fed should tighten by raising interest rates to make dollars and dollar-denominated assets more attractive.

Well I guess Buchanan is an economist now.

The dollar has been strong because the US 4% of the world's population has been 25% of the worlds wealth. That is changing. Some say it's about time.

On top of that Buchanan shouldn't be calling out the Fed, the problem is Bush and the Republican congress that have run up, by far, the biggest deficits this country has ever seen.

That is the real cause of the devaluation of the dollar, the recent rate cut has only added to the situation.

If we weren't spending Trillions in Iraq the dollar would be flying high. To Buchanan's credit he was against the war.

And what would Buchanan say if the Fed didn't cut rates and we were already in a recession?



 
131Building 7
ID: 471052128
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 14:09
In 1913 one could buy a one ounce $20 gold piece for.....$20. Today it will cost you $800. 20 / 800 = .025. I was wrong, they have caused the dollar to lose 97.5% of its value.
 
132nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 14:10


To bring things back on thread, from a housing perspective I don't think that the Fed should do anything to try to stop deflation in housing prices.

Beezer

Bernake has stated on numerous occasions that is not the purpose of the rate cuts. The purpose is to protect the overall economy from the overspill from the housing problems.
 
133Perm Dude
ID: 171052169
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 14:12
That is a false comparison. The price of gold was pegged in 1913. Now it is market-driven.

You can't compare the "value" of something by comparing a government-set price with a free-market price for the same product. It is like saying that the dollar's value has changed because government cheese in the 80s was so much less expensive than buying it in the grocery store today.
 
134nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 14:19

In 1913 one could buy a one ounce $20 gold piece for.....$20. Today it will cost you $800. 20 / 800 = .025. I was wrong, they have caused the dollar to lose 97.5% of its value.

This is the housing thread but I can't let that go.

What is your point?

In 1913 the DJIA was under 100 today it's at 13,000

If gold was 100 it would be 4,000

In 1913 you probably made .25 an hour. Today...you get the idea.

What is your point? If the gold standard would be so great why is the value of US businesses worth so much more over the same period?

I really can't follow your or Ron Paul's logic.

 
135biliruben
ID: 471081612
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 14:28
B7 appears to be a gold-bug. In my experience gold-bugs and logic don't mix. That heavy, glittery goodness seems to short-circuit higher logical brain function.

I resolve to stop trying to discuss economics rationally with gold-bugs. The conversation always turns to the glittery goodness and how that should represent the "true" value of all things, without any justification for that belief.

That's not to say that I agree with the guvmint's obsession with perpetual inflation, and our difficulty in measuring it.

I do know I wouldn't try to measure it by how much hypnotized loons choose to arbitrary pay for a fairly useless mineral.
 
136Building 7
ID: 471052128
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 14:42
I do know I wouldn't try to measure it by how much hypnotized loons choose to arbitrary pay for a fairly useless mineral.

The word is arbitrarily. If you're going to toss out insults, at least you could use a coherent sentence.
 
137biliruben
ID: 471081612
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 14:47
Thanks man.

Are you available for proof-reading in general, or just when they contain insults?

Also, are you admitting to being part of the flock?
 
138nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 14:55

B7 I want to move part of the gold discussion over to the Stock Thread.
 
139biliruben
ID: 471081612
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 15:06
I actually already built goldbugs their own thread.
 
140Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 15:12
How is the stance that 'we should take the Fed's word that this here paper is worth something" superior to the belief that the Fed should go back to offering a relatively rare and intrinsically valuable resource in exchange for their notes?

Look up the timespan it has taken the Fed to tripple the amount of US currency in circulation.

Then take that dollar to the gas pump without pausing to scratch your head at the new price.

Then reflect on the fact that the Fed is actually a privately owned bank.

*correction: Privately owned monopoly. Wouldn't want any REAL money floating around in competition.

Amazing that the same people who think they are anti-big business are pro-uber-powerful private central bank.

 
141Perm Dude
ID: 171052169
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 15:18
Privately owned monopoly.

Better. :) Like the Post Office.


Look, there are plenty of reasons to scale back or eliminate the Fed which have to do with performance reasons. We don't need to try to make the argument about eliminating them for what they are (as that gets into deep goldbug waters). It is far easier, and probably more effective, to make the argument about what they do (or, what they should do but aren't).
 
142nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 15:29


Look up the timespan it has taken the Fed to tripple the amount of US currency in circulation.

I give up how long?

Then take that dollar to the gas pump without pausing to scratch your head at the new price.

And it has nothing to do with the fact that oil is getting harder and harder to find? That China and India are using more and more? Those facts are just coincidences?

I'm not arguing the deflated dollar isn't part of the reason. You make it sound like the "only" reason.

Then reflect on the fact that the Fed is actually a privately owned bank.

A privately owned bank. Appointed by the president, required to answer questions from congress. A privately run bank that has helped build the strongest economy, beyond any sense of reason, the world has ever seen.

I get your point Baldwin. Now tell me again, why do we want to change it?


 
143Perm Dude
ID: 3110341616
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 17:44
Banks lie, we pay, housing tanks?
 
144Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 22:14
Years before he would spend more than two decades as the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan stated, This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists antagonism toward the gold standard.
 
145Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 22:50
Outstanding explanation of how we got here. Read the entire long piece. It will change the way you think.

Excerpt:
Among other problems with this system of money creation is that banks create the principal but not the interest necessary to pay back their loans; and that is where the Ponzi scheme comes in. Since loans from the Federal Reserve or commercial banks are the only source of new money in the economy, additional borrowers must continually be found to take out new loans to expand the money supply, in order to pay the interest creamed off by the bankers. New sources of debt are fanned into "bubbles" (rapidly rising asset prices), which expand until they "pop," when new bubbles are devised until no more borrowers can be found, and the pyramid finally collapses.

Before 1933, when the dollar went off the gold standard, the tether of gold served to limit the expansion of the money supply; but since then, the Fed's solution to collapsed bubbles has been to pump more newly-created money into the system. When the savings and loan associations collapsed, precipitating a recession in the 1980s, the Fed lowered interest rates and fanned the 1990s stock market bubble. When that bubble collapsed in 2000, the Fed dropped interest rates even further, creating the housing bubble of the current decade. When lenders ran out of "prime" borrowers, they turned to "subprime" borrowers - those who would not have qualified under the older, tougher standards. It was all part of the structural imperative of all Ponzi schemes, that the inflow of cash must continually expand to pay the people at the top. This expansion, however, has mathematical limits. In 2004, the Fed had to begin raising rates to tame inflation and to support the burgeoning federal debt by making government bonds more attractive to investors. The housing bubble was then punctured, and many subprime borrowers went into default.

The Subprime Mess and the Derivatives Scam

In the ever-growing need to find new borrowers, lending standards were relaxed. Adjustable rate mortgages, interest-only loans, no- or low-down-payment loans, and no-documentation loans made "home ownership" available to nearly anyone willing to take the bait. The risks of these loans were minimized by off-loading them onto unsuspecting investors. The loans were sliced up, bundled with less risky mortgages, and sold as mortgage-backed securities called "collateralized debt obligations" (CDOs). To induce rating agencies to give CDOs triple-A ratings, "derivatives" were thrown into the mix, ostensibly protecting investors from loss.

Derivatives are basically side bets that some investment (a stock, commodity, etc.) will go up or down in value. The simplest form is a "put" that pays the investor if an asset he owns goes down, neutralizing his risk. But most derivatives today are far more difficult to understand than that. Some critics say they are impossible to understand, because they were intentionally designed to mislead investors. By December 2006, according to the Bank for International Settlements, the derivatives trade had grown to $415 trillion. This is a Ponzi scheme on its face, since the sum is nearly nine times the size of the entire world economy. A thing is worth only what it will fetch in the market, and there is no market anywhere on the planet that can afford to pay up on these speculative bets.

The current market implosion began when investment bank Bear Stearns, which had been buying CDOs through its hedge funds, closed two of those funds in June 2007. When the creditors tried to get their money back, the CDOs were put up for sale, and there were no takers at anywhere near their stated valuations. Panic spread, as increasing numbers of investment banks had to prevent "runs" on their hedge funds by refusing withdrawals by investors concerned about fraudulent CDO valuations. When the problem became too big for the investment banks to handle, the central banks stepped in with their $300 billion lifeline.

Among those institutions rescued was Countrywide Financial, the largest U.S. mortgage lender. Countrywide has been called the next Enron, not only because it was facing bankruptcy but because it was guilty of some quite shady practices. It underwrote and sold hundreds of thousands of mortgages containing false and misleading information, which were then sold in the market as "securities." The lack of "liquidity" was blamed directly on these corrupt practices, which had frightened investors away from the markets. But that did not deter the Fed from sending in a lifeboat. Countrywide was saved when Bank of America bought $2 billion of its stock with a loan made available by the Fed at newly-reduced interest rates. Bank of America also got a nice windfall, since when investors learned that Countrywide was being rescued, the stock it just purchased shot up.
 
146Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 23:20
Nerve

A) Off the cuff, @ 20 years.



source

B) The off shore dollar supply has been been especially inflated. These "petro-dollars" are getting mighty thin. Countries are considering taking payment in euros instead. China is the wildcard and if they swing away from the dollar all hell will break loose.
since the U.S. dollar supply outside the U.S. has increased from $600 billion in 1990 to over $6 trillion today? By the way, it has been said that money expansion should occur at approximately the same rate as inflation. Given that the U.S. Federal Reserve targets inflation at 2% -3% a year, then in 17 years, money supply outside the U.S. should have grown from $600 billion to about $913 billion. Somewhere along the line, the Feds happened to grow money supply by $5,087,000,000,000 too much (perhaps, if you are a dollar holder, you now understand why today, your U.S. dollar seems to buy you nothing, whether in London, Montreal, Paris, or Singapore. [from the source in the last post - B]

C) You who are so aware of the power elite, are so happy to hand them the till and the tiller? [man am I tickled with that last word choice]
 
147Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Fri, Nov 16, 2007, 23:38
I posted the above before I got around to reading the thread in which Building 7 was mining the same vein. Interesting that this stuff is bubbling up to the conscious level just now.
 
148Perm Dude
ID: 3110341616
Sat, Nov 17, 2007, 01:02
You're right, bili. Yeeach. Its a wonder the thousands of scams since 1913 schemes haven't blown up, but there you go.
 
149The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sat, Nov 17, 2007, 10:25
It's Saturday, so it's time for the weekly snapshot courtesy of the Charlotte Observer.

Nothing really related to the housing market until you get to the At Home section fairly deep within the paper. The bottom of the front page has the housing report on closing for October. Closings are down 23 percent and average closing prices are down YOY. I'd say that the crowing about how things are "different here" is just about over.
 
150nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Sat, Nov 17, 2007, 15:09

Baldwin you are way over my head. If this is all by the same source let's just take this easy premise...

But that did not deter the Fed from sending in a lifeboat. Countrywide was saved when Bank of America bought $2 billion of its stock with a loan made available by the Fed at newly-reduced interest rates. Bank of America also got a nice windfall, since when investors learned that Countrywide was being rescued, the stock it just purchased shot up.


The newly reduced rate was half a percent, big deal.

BOA bought CWF for 18 dollars a share.

CWF is currently at 12 a share...life boat? More like noose.

So what was this guys point? And if his arguments fall apart so obviously why is anything he says credible?

Geez I would of at least had the common sense to edit out such an obvious disservice to your point.

 
151Perm Dude
ID: 251071711
Sat, Nov 17, 2007, 15:20
nice work nerve.
 
152Baldwin
ID: 125312919
Sun, Nov 18, 2007, 00:10
Nerve

At this point I am not sure if BoA is in a noose or if they will be the ones holding all the marbles when it all shakes out. Your point sounds strong at first but are you betting BoA is hanging on by a thread or that they are the sort of investor who buys on the cheap? My gut tells me it's the latter.
 
153nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Sun, Nov 18, 2007, 00:37

BoA is hanging on by a thread or that they are the sort of investor who buys on the cheap? My gut tells me it's the latter.

If they buy on the cheap why did they pay 18 a share instead of 12? A price many people are avoiding right now because no one is really sure Country Wide will survive.



 
154 Baldwin
ID: 4610171922
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 00:03
As I have stated in the past, I have been trying to figure out who ends up holding all the marbles when this bubble is done bursting. It will be whoever manages to buy the bundles of mortgages at or near their low point in value and who has the financial strength to last till the upturn.

BoA took the gamble.

[BTW the RE seminars are all about grabbing a chunk at the low point. They have people negotiating deals where the desperate seller is actually agreeing to pay the mortgage for 5 years! Unbelievable.]

I'll give you a template that I suspect is being played out again.

[yes Sarge, I keep going back to this]

The power elite has nearly bankrupted the healthcare industry by mandating that they don't refuse treatment to those who cannot pay in many situations. Like an unfunded mandate to pay for early socialized medicine. This is enforced by threatening to withhold medicare payments if they don't go along.

But the 'rest of the story' as Paul Harvey would say, is that now the Carlyle Group...the most conected power elite pirate corporation...nearly an arm of the government they are so connected, That Carlyle Group...the one with board member Buzzy Krongard of 9/11 put option fame, is trying to buy the largest healthcare conglomerate Manorcare. These are the kind of people with the insider information that the expensive cases bankrupting healthcare currently are soon to get the Terry Shiavo treatment or alternatively that true govenment funded socialized medicine is on the near horizon and then those 'bad investments' won't look so bad.

Apply the template to insider neo-govenmental corps like BoA buying into discounted real estate. They know the government and Fed moves that produced the bubble and they are in a better position to time/predict/influence the next relevent governmental moves and they have the resources to outlast the bubble burst. I'll bet their buying in wasn't some neophyte mistake...some bozos putting their neck in a noose.

How often does it turn out that the power elite are doing the exact opposite of the crowd?

I always think of Bernard Baruch selling while everyone else was buying leading up to the stock market crash.

Time will tell who is right on this one, Nerve.

 
155biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 00:16
Grabbing a chunk at the low point?

The low point is at least 5 years away, is my guess. Who the heck would want to hold a depreciating asset? Not the power elite. What drivel.
 
156Baldwin
ID: 4610171922
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 00:18
If I had the energy I would use my investor toolbox to see if BoA insiders are still buying contrywide.
 
157biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 00:20
The only thing of value at countrywide is their servicing. Their portfolio is an albatross.
 
158Baldwin
ID: 4610171922
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 00:24
Who the heck would want to hold a depreciating asset? Not the power elite. What drivel.

A) how do you know that wasn't the cheapest way to acquire the property held by CW? For all you know it would bring more sold off piecemeal.

B) It's real estate. Land. Did Donald Trump sell all his?
 
159biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 00:45
Banks don't want land. They don't have the personnel do manage it.

They sell it as fast as they can when they are in the unfortunate position of owning it.

Land values are plummeting and will continue to plummet for the foreseeable future. The winners are the ones who are patient and keep their powder dry.

2012. That's when to start buying. Only the fools buy now. Wait for the panic.

Just my uneducated opinion.
 
160biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 00:47
Watch San Diego. That's my Canary. When it bottoms and starts to rise for a few straight quarters, then you will know we found equilibrium.
 
161nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 01:22


What we do know Baldwin is BOA bought a HUGE position at 18 a share and last time I checked CFC is down to just over 10 dollars a share. I am trying to work with you on the logic angle but I'm not finding any.

Again even if the stock goes back up to 25, they would have been much smarter grabbing it here.



 
162Baldwin
ID: 4610171922
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 10:47
I never claimed the power elite are so clairvoyent that they can hit the exact lowest point in the market. They do however have a lot better chance of knowing if the Fed is gonna create a drought or open the floodgates, what exactly is gonna be in the small print in that next bill going thru congress and how the reconciliation between senate and house will rework the bill, how the next tax code will warp the playing field, if the zeitgeist is gonna swing one way or another long before PD gets his marching orders.

With a nod to 'Trading Places', they know the inside story often enuff to make all the difference.
 
163Perm Dude
ID: 331041209
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 10:51
Don't forget their Trilateral Commission membership card, Baldwin.
 
164Baldwin
ID: 4610171922
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 11:44
While they may not know the lowest dollar amount for a share of Countrywide, they can predict your direction 30 years in advance, PD.
 
165Perm Dude
ID: 331041209
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 13:37
Nice. So your argument is, essentially, people on the inside know the inside information. So not only is your argument unsurprising, it is unuseful as well.

Sorry if my realism rubs your goldbug the wrong way, B.

Perhaps it would help if you actually understood my position, rather than just get pissy at perceived positions? How would Jesus post, Baldwin?

 
166biliruben
ID: 471081612
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 13:57
They may know a bit more than the average Baldwin, but they have to use that knowledge wisely. With the exception of Goldman Sachs, and maybe Lehman, they have not been using their knowledge wisely.

Won't stop 'em from getting their 38 billion in bonuses however.
 
167Perm Dude
ID: 331041209
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 14:35
But now the bonus is paid in euros.

:)
 
168nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Tue, Nov 20, 2007, 15:43

I never claimed the power elite are so clairvoyent that they can hit the exact lowest point in the market.

Yeah, and in this case they were off by 50%. Last I looked it's down to 9 and small change.

Here's your chance Baldwin to beat the insiders... they paid 18...grab CFC for 9.20. It can't miss.

Don't worry though, I'm still a card carrying member of the conspiracy theory club.



 
169nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 10:58

This is potentially a big deal for the sub prime situation It won't help everyone, for instance people who already can't make their present payments.

It could help those with trouble looming ahead though.

I read about the story 15 minutes after it was released, immediately ran to Country Wide to try and make a short term trade but it was already up 19% so I walked away.

U.S. stocks rose on Friday on a report the U.S. Treasury will soon unveil a plan to help stem the subprime mortgage crisis and on comments by Fed chief Ben Bernanke that added to expectations of an interest-rate cut.

Beaten-down mortgage-related shares such as Countrywide (CFC) and Freddie Mac (FRE) were the biggest gainers after sources familiar with the situation said the Treasury is close to announcing a plan it is brokering with mortgage industry leaders to hold interest payments steady for many subprime borrowers facing foreclosure. For more see [ID:nN30421799].

"It's the Treasury's efforts to try to help get rid of some of the subprime problems that's really the driving force," said Charles Lieberman, chief investment officer of Advisors Capital Management in Paramus, New Jersey.

"Investors were extremely fearful and values were artificially low. Some of the extreme fear is now out of the market and maybe a more realistic valuation can be established," he added.


 
170biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 11:52
The mortgage crisis isn't really primarily subprime problem anymore, if it ever was. The number of people who this is going to help is going to be small.

What I want to know is whether tax-payers are going to be on the hook to make investors whole who are now taking a loss by getting continued unprofitable teaser payments instead of those payments reflecting the adjusted rates that are no longer going to adjust.

Personally, I don't think they should be made whole, but if they aren't they are pretty much telling investors they are fools to invest in mortgages ever again.

I think this would be good thing in the long run, but it will only make the liquidity issues worse. Continued credit contraction is inevitable, but this might hasten it.

BTW nerve - you are never going to with the nimblest fingers contest against the pros. Stick to long-term investing, is my advice.
 
171nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 14:00
BTW nerve - you are never going to with the nimblest fingers contest against the pros. Stick to long-term investing, is my advice.

That's 98% of what I do.

70% of my money is in index or no load mutual funds I don't really touch unless I get another sell signal from Brinker.

When I buy stocks it's with a plan to buy for an intermediate term minimum.

The only reason I am not buying all my stocks long term right now is I've been convinced we are in a volatile market that isn't going straight up.

But when I am sitting at my computer and see a story like that...it's worth a look. I didn't buy though.

I've been buying stocks until I had no cash left at 1450 and below.

 
172nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 14:04

The number of people who this is going to help is going to be small.

It's gonna help...the banks.

 
173biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Fri, Nov 30, 2007, 16:11
True dat. Though maybe not enough.

 
174The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 10:56
I don't see the move making much of a dent. If there's even a hint of coercion in these modifications from a third party, the ABS market will lock down. If that's not the case, then it's just loan modifications with positive press that would have occurred anyway.

Some other items that I've been meaning to post about:

- My fiancee and I met with a friend and her husband that own a stonecutting business in Indiana. Surprisingly to me, he said that his business has largely been holding up and that he has some big projects in progress for high-end housing developments. He's worried about 2008 but so far the people that really have money (as opposed to just trying to act like it) still seem to be willing to spend.

- The Charlotte Observer yesterday was hilarious. The local columnist cited a measure that showed home price appreciation - Zillow.com estimates. However, there has been no mention in that paper of the latest Case-Shiller estimates showing a decline in prices in the area. I've seen Case-Shiller mentioned in the paper before so I know they're aware it exists, yet they'd rather cite an online estimate than a measure established enough to have its own futures market. Of course there's no impact of advertising on content, though!
 
175biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Sun, Dec 02, 2007, 11:06
Yeah - we see the same thing in Seattle. The paper citing months - or in some cases years-old statistics, and spinning a rosy sheen on every number. Seattlebubble, a very popular local blog takes a particular pride in shredding every article coming out of the Seattle Times under the spin-mistress Lizzy Rhodes.
 
176The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sat, Dec 08, 2007, 09:56
Pretty quiet in this Saturday's Observer. All the articles in the home sections were non-price related other than weekly Ken Harney article (from WaPo) talking about borrowers with less than a 680 FICO paying extra for a mortgage unless they put down at least 30%(!) for a down payment. That's for conforming loans and seems quite significant.

Any thoughts on the subprime assistance plan that was announced this week? I personally don't see a whole lot that is objectionable at first glance, which of course means that it won't have much impact. I wonder how long how long all of this will be labeled as a "subprime" problem as to me it seems that the upscale buying via Pay Option ARMs is going to be the real killer in all this.
 
177biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Sat, Dec 08, 2007, 11:03
We are all subprime.

They basically let the industry write it, and then allowed them to opt out. No contracts are broken, which means it will be pretty worthless, given the bizarre constraints.

Calculated Risk thinks it's written for investors. Screw the homeowners. It's the economy that matters, right?
 
178nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Sun, Dec 09, 2007, 15:16


Any thoughts on the subprime assistance plan that was announced this week? I personally don't see a whole lot that is objectionable at first glance, which of course means that it won't have much impact.

Nothing objectionable?

Imagine you had done the intelligent thing 2 years ago and taken a 6.25% 15 or 30 year mortgage, because you had good credit and acted responsibly.

Now imagine today you see the President propose a bailout, that would freeze the interest rate of loans to people who had acted irresponsibly, taken loans that would balloon after a few years even though they couldn't afford a normal house loan in the first place.

Now imagine they have been paying lower interest then you, because they took this irresponsible loan.

Now imagine they get to keep all that savings, and lock in the lower rate for 5 years, while you, the responsible one, paid more money for a responsible loan.

Now imagine you invested in mortgage backed loans, that were an implied contract to receive a particular rate of return for a particular risk.

Now imagine, you are being told, without any room for debate, that even though you have a contract, that you will now get a lower return on your investment, but it's for a good cause, to help the irresponsible home buyer. Simply because a politician has deemed this a good idea.

Now imagine that because you have been a good credit risk, and paid back loans on time you have a FICO score above 660. Sorry you aren't eligible for this bail out simply because you are too conscientious about paying your bills on time.

Now...what's not wrong with this plan???

Unless you are a socialist...8-}

 
179Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Dec 09, 2007, 17:40
Is there a precedent for a mortgage bailout like this? If the market goes bad, the market has to correct itself unless if things start really blowing up (The Great Depression) because we take on the risk and it's all part of the game.

This would be like me getting a gov't bailout for stocks that I own that have gone down in value. I could claim that my broker or an analyst mislead me with information and that I got scammed.
 
180biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Sun, Dec 09, 2007, 21:50
Y'all misunderstand this plan.

It's not a bailout. No taxpayer money is being used.

It is optional to investors.

It is only modifying a loan, within the strictures of the current contract, temporarily.

It is only available to people who are either already well underwater on their loan or are about to be underwater really, really soon. These people generally would be better off financially simply mailing in their keys. Instead, the lenders and investors are trying to keep them paying an inflated mortgage payment that reflects a loan greater than their house is worth, and who's payment is often significantly more than what it would cost to rent a comparable home.

Then the rate adjusts in 5 years, along with retooling the payments upwards to get it so it's amortized and payed off at the end of the life of the loan, they are even further underwater, and then they almost certainly lose their house, absent pennies from heaven.

Such a deal.

BTW, the average rate on these loans, before reset is north of 7%.

Such a bargain.
 
181nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 08:07

Bili Y'all misunderstand this plan.

Hmm are you sure "y'all understand this plan", Bili?

It's not a bailout. No taxpayer money is being used.

Umm they are being bailed out with investors money, I never said the government was doing it.

It is optional to investors.

Not true, at best only half right.

Yes the primary mortgage lenders/banks are making the decision to go along, but these loans were bundled and sold to other investors at a particular advertised rate of return, now the mortgage company/bank is deciding for the end investor they will take a reduced return.

They are in effect altering the terms of a contract without consulting the second party.

It is only modifying a loan, within the strictures of the current contract, temporarily.

Again without consulting the end investor who stands to get a lower return now.

It is only available to people who are either already well underwater on their loan or are about to be underwater really, really soon.

Not sure what you mean by underwater, but it's actually only available to homeowners who haven't missed a payment or have missed one payment in the last 12 months. The people who are really under water are not included.

If you have already missed 2 payments, you are not eligible...

Also your FICO must be below 660, so if you are in the same boat, but a responsible credit payer, you're out of luck.

Instead, the lenders and investors are trying to keep them paying an inflated mortgage payment that reflects a loan greater than their house is worth, and who's payment is often significantly more than what it would cost to rent a comparable home.

Depends on where they live (whether the house is that much lower) besides, who put a gun to their head and told them to over pay for a house.

I do agree with your assessment, the home owner is being "helped" to stay in deep debt. They are the ones who took the loan the couldn't afford though. If they don't like this plan, they still have the option to not pay and allow foreclosure.

What do you want Bili? The rest of us to just give them the home?

As far as what the rate is, some are going to lock in a decent rate while their neighbors who did the responsible thing and took a normal loan pay a higher rate. You have to keep in mind these people have been paying historically low rates the last couple of years, don't forget all the money they have saved with that low teaser rate for the first 2-3 years. (But what are the odds they put any of it in the bank?)

Now many people who really couldn't afford a home will keep theirs, while people who didn't buy because they thought prices were to high or they couldn't afford it just have to stand and watch.

Then the rate adjusts in 5 years, along with retooling the payments upwards to get it so it's amortized and payed off at the end of the life of the loan, they are even further underwater, and then they almost certainly lose their house, absent pennies from heaven.

The thinking is, I believe, after 5 years of payments, and 5 years for house prices to start to move back up, they will no longer be upside down in the loan. The degree to which this is true probably depends on what part of the country they live in.

Worst case they sell the home 5 years from now, make some profit or break even and are right back where they should have been...unable to buy a home, just like the responsible people who didn't try.

Such a deal.

A Lot better then what they were facing.

Lousy deal for the people who bought investments that included these mortgages who are having their capital taken away without getting a say in it.

BTW, the average rate on these loans, before reset is north of 7%.

And they were headed to 11, 12, 13% before this...7% even 8% sounds sweet. In the old days an 7-8%% loan for a person with bad credit would be referred to as a gift.


From the negative tone of your comments, it sounds like neither of us think it's a wise plan, maybe for different reasons.





 
182biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 12:18
First, when I saw underwater I mean the same thing as what you mean by upside-down. People who can refi (i.e. have equity) don't qualify.

Second, servicers have always had the ability to modify loans, whether it screws the investors or not. This just institutes a standard mod. and gets this option in the press so underwater homeowners call their servicer before they start missing payments.

Third, foreclosure is extremely expensive for the investor. Which would you chose:
1) losing 40% of your investment by watching the loans you hold go through a wave of foreclosures
2) take 8% instead of 12% for a few years?

With tranched CDOs this is a bit more nuanced, as the upper tranche investors might benefit from foreclosure and the lower tranche investors might benefit from a mod, but that's too complicated to consider for our purposes: the upshot is mods are better than foreclosures for the investor. Otherwise they wouldn't have agreed. It's their plan, after all.

My desire:

I want those who profited from the run-up to bear some of the risk during the crash.

That means:

I don't want a tax-payer bailout.

I don't give a rats-ass about investors. They knew, or should have known what they were getting into, and they generally made hefty profits over the last 10 years. With profit comes risk, otherwise we are all socialist now.

I want the victims of fraud helped as much as possible to be made whole. This plan doesn't even pretend to do that. If a family could have qualified for a prime loan but were steered into subprime to pad the broker's pockets, I would like to see that broker pay to get that family into a prime loan. I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

Right now, this plan is not a bailout, and the vast majority of folks that it "helps" would be better off, ignoring credit destruction which will likely happen anyway, mailing in their keys. Investors and servicers are desperately trying to stop them from doing that.

Right now 3.5 million of the 50 million mortgage holders are underwater. My guess is that in 5 years 20 million of the 50 million will be. Scary.
 
183Boxman
ID: 337352111
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 13:02
If a family could have qualified for a prime loan but were steered into subprime to pad the broker's pockets, I would like to see that broker pay to get that family into a prime loan.

Wouldn't they know this by the interest rate on the loan?
 
184nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 13:25


People who can refi (i.e. have equity) don't qualify.

And people with good credit (Above 660 FICO), but have an ARM with a prepay penalty? What happens to them?

Second, servicers have always had the ability to modify loans, whether it screws the investors or not. This just institutes a standard mod. and gets this option in the press so underwater homeowners call their servicer before they start missing payments.

Disingenuous argument, it's not common in the industry to modify loans anywhere near to this extent. This is a hyper unusual action, you make it sound normal.

Third, foreclosure is extremely expensive for the investor. Which would you chose:
1) losing 40% of your investment by watching the loans you hold go through a wave of foreclosures


I guess it depends on whether the investment would really lose 40% (A number you made up) Obviously if this was the case, the investors wouldn't be complaining.

2) take 8% instead of 12% for a few years?

Another number you made up, can you show me where these figures came from or was it "off the top of your head"?

the upshot is mods are better than foreclosures for the investor. Otherwise they wouldn't have agreed. It's their plan, after all.

Accept this helps everyone with an adjustable rate mortgage, not just the ones who would default.

Your also not taking into account the fact this will continue to prop up the cost of buying a home by not allowing the market to cull the bad investments from people who didn't have the means to buy these.

So instead, qualified, entry level home buyers, or other qualified buyers who want to move, won't be able to afford a home back at a normalized prices because there will be fewer on the market. The price will stay artificially higher then they should have.

My desire:

I want those who profited from the run-up to bear some of the risk during the crash.


Ahh have you looked at the financials stock prices lately? A quick look at the one year chart for Country Wide would do nicely.

That means:

I don't want a tax-payer bailout.


Ain't gonna happen with this President.

I don't give a rats-ass about investors. They knew, or should have known what they were getting into, and they generally made hefty profits over the last 10 years.

Bili you know better then this, you know many investors were equal victims. They were told they were buying high quality investment vehicles. They were rated as such by Moody's and SP even though there were sub prime mortgages hidden in them. I think you even posted about this. Play fair Bili.

It's OK if an investor loses money on an investment with a high risk as long as the investment plays out. In this case the contract has been dramatically changed.

But you do give a rats ass about the people who took out investments in a home they couldn't afford? Those investors are victims? They just didn't know what they were doing?

With profit comes risk, otherwise we are all socialist now.

Risk fine. But now you are changing the contract on an investment purchase. You are also bailing out someone who was irresponsible. Yeah it's a bail out.

When someone agrees to a loan at a certain level, and then you suddenly change the rules to help them, that's a bailout.

This helping out the big banks too, I don't disagree. The people being hurt are the responsible home buyers who waited, or took more expensive loans.

I'm really not as passionate about this issue as I come across in my past couple of posts. I just like debating you Bili... 8-}

Ultimately this is really just a political present offered up by George W to the Republican candidates. He wants to contain the sub prime debacle as best he can until after the election.

Many of these freezes will start to come up for readjustment in 2010 (The 5 years is from the start of the loan many from 2005)

That date is well after the election and will give the Dem President something to worry about her 2nd year in office.

Maybe this was really a land mine from George to Hillary.

 
185Boxman
ID: 337352111
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 13:39
From the WSJ Online.

Dissecting the Bailout Plan
By ALAN REYNOLDS
December 10, 2007; Page A19

It is not quite right to describe the new White House plan as a bailout of subprime mortgage borrowers. Actually, it is a bailout for a tiny fraction of those with adjustable-rate mortgages (ARMs), not subprime loans per se. Nearly half of all subprime mortgage rates are fixed-rate loans, and only 32% of ARMs are subprime. With all the misplaced political anxiety about rates being reset, you might imagine that all those victims who signed-up for these mortgages had no idea their rates might actually be adjusted.

The Bush administration claims the plan will help "up to" 1.2 million people. Most of that promised help consists of nothing more than another phone number to call for counseling about refinancing -- a redundant service unlikely to prove wildly popular. Refinancing has been soaring anyway, thanks to 30-year mortgage rates dipping below 6%.

If risky subprime borrowers were actually supposed to be the main beneficiaries of such refinancing assistance, then it would have been the height of irresponsibility for President Bush to suggest greater involvement of the Federal Housing Administration, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Shifting default risk to U.S. taxpayers could be very costly.

In reality, the only financial aid in this plan goes to those who qualify for the five-year freeze on mortgage rates -- a curiously selective little group, estimated to number between 145,000 and 360,000.

When it comes to resetting mortgage payments below the level borrowers agreed to, why give a special deal to Sam but not Suzie? On the day the plan was unveiled, the Mortgage Bankers Association reported that 0.78% of mortgages went into foreclosure in the third quarter, and that 5.59% were far behind in their payments. Neither group qualifies for any help under the Bush plan. Neither does anyone with imperfect timing -- those who took out a mortgage before 2005 or after this July. Among the few lucky enough to slip through that narrow window, the primary criterion for a rate freeze is a weak credit rating, below 660. And what happens after five years? Presidential contender Sen. Hillary Clinton is already talking about stretching it to seven years, and that bidding war has just begun.

On the face of it, these criteria for political favoritism seem only marginally more sensible than limiting special loan terms to, say, short people or redheads.

Is it a bailout? The stock market sure thought so. Stock prices of mortgage companies and homebuilders soared on the news. After all, the plan was designed by and for those same companies -- key members of the "Hope Now Alliance."

Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson describes the arbitrary rewriting of financial contracts as a win-win situation for everyone. If that were true, the government would not have to get involved. In a win-win deal, Sen. Clinton would also not have felt compelled to threaten legislation to prohibit lawsuits from unhappy owners of mortgage-backed securities. If this "changing of the rules in the middle of the game," as many have described it, becomes a precedent, future funding will dry up quickly and permanently -- particularly for low-income borrowers. Why buy a bond that can have its terms changed by political whim?

President Bush says he only wants to bail out borrowers, not lenders. Yet the whole point of this scheme is to cajole or bribe more borrowers into making more mortgage payments -- to lenders. The plan supposedly excludes speculators, because it applies only to owner-occupied homes. Yet smart speculators know it is difficult to sell an empty or rented house. Popular books about getting rich by "flipping" homes recommend living in the house while you're fixing it up for resale. In the interim, temporarily low adjustable rates act like rent subsidies.

Despite loose chatter about rates being reset to levels "as high as" 11% or more, ARMs are typically linked to interest rates that are now unusually low, such as the 4% rate on one-year Treasuries. Resets rarely exceed three percentage points. Even low-rate teaser loans (not often granted to subprime borrowers) typically set a 7.5% cap on how much the minimum payment can rise in a year.

Christopher Cagan of First American Real Estate Solutions, using a huge sample and conservative assumptions, estimates that "the impact of rate sensitivity and subsequent defaults will be . . . well below one-half percent of total mortgage debt outstanding," and spread over several years. "Reset adjustments to subprime loans may not be as serious as one might think," he finds, because such high-rate borrowers face proportionately smaller increases in monthly payments and (judging by the equity in their homes) were apparently required to make significant down payments.

The greatest risk of people defaulting because of interest-rate resets, Mr. Cagan finds, is from those "making artificially low teaser payments" who now find themselves with no equity because local house prices fell. Teaser loans accounted for 18.4% of all active first mortgages originated in 2004 and 2005, according to Mr. Cagan. Although 2005 was too long ago to qualify, the very idea of freezing rates as low as 1% is bizarre.

The political excuse for getting the government involved in helping a few politically-favored borrowers is based on false assumptions that subprime mortgages were usually used to buy a house, that a huge percentage of subprime loans face foreclosure, and that the main reason for foreclosure is rising interest rates.

All three conventional assumptions were undone by a new study from the Boston Fed. Its research shows that "most subprime loans are refinances of a previous mortgage." It estimates that "about 18% of people who finance home purchases with subprime mortgages will eventually experience foreclosure" within a 12-year period.

Most importantly, the Boston Fed economists found that most foreclosures do not result from adjustable rates going up, but from local house prices going down. They "attribute most of the dramatic rise in foreclosures in 2006 and 2007 in Massachusetts to the decline in house prices that began in the summer of 2005. Subprime lending played a role but that role was in creating a class of homeowners who were particularly sensitive to declining house price appreciation, rather than, as is commonly believed, by placing people in inherently problematic mortgages."

If you owe more money on a house than the house is worth, foreclosure can be a perfectly rational choice. Suppose Mr. Smith bought a house for $300,000 with no money down, but the value of that house has now fallen to $270,000. If he refinances or sells the house, he would still owe the mortgage servicer an extra $30,000. Falling home prices in many areas provide a powerful incentive to default on the loan, live rent-free for many months, and then hand the keys to the bank.

Those who bought homes with no money down have nothing to lose by walking away if they can't resell their homes at a profit. Perhaps that explains why only those with substandard credit ratings are singled out for special treatment under the Bush administration's plan. The "hope now" behind this plan is that people who have good reasons to default will keep paying anyway, even if the value of their houses keeps falling.

Some in the news industry have described all this heavy-handed political intervention as the Bush administration's "free-market approach" to the threat of nonperforming mortgages. On the contrary, honoring contracts and property rights is absolutely essential to the proper functioning of a free society and free economy. A mortgage is a binding contract between consenting adults. A mortgage-backed security is private property. It is the antithesis of a free market for the government to fix prices, pressure mortgage service companies into renegotiating contracts, and thereby expropriate property rights of those stuck holding mortgage-backed securities.

Another president, Richard Nixon, gained ephemeral popularity by freezing wages and prices on Aug. 15, 1971, but the end result was disastrous for the economy. The Bush administration may hope now for some political benefit from freezing interest rates for a select subgroup of high-risk borrowers. But whenever politicians attempt to protect borrowers and lenders from their folly, they just encourage more folly.

Mr. Reynolds, a senior fellow with the Cato Institute, is the author of "Income and Wealth" (Greenwood Press, 2006).
 
186nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 14:27

Presidential contender Sen. Hillary Clinton is already talking about stretching it to seven years, and that bidding war has just begun.

Now let's follow the timeline, can Hillary be anymore obvious?

Bush makes it a 5 year plane that started in 2005. That gets him (The Republican Candidates) through the election and drops it in the lap of mid term next President.

NOW the next President (At least in her mind) is already thinking ahead, adjusting the time frame to 7 years which is just when she is scheduled to be re-elected.

That means she can point to the fact she lengthened the time frame, use it for re-election, and not have the time bomb go off mid first term.

Can these politicians be anymore obvious?

 
187nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 14:36

In a win-win deal, Sen. Clinton would also not have felt compelled to threaten legislation to prohibit lawsuits from unhappy owners of mortgage-backed securities. If this "changing of the rules in the middle of the game," as many have described it, becomes a precedent, future funding will dry up quickly and permanently -- particularly for low-income borrowers. Why buy a bond that can have its terms changed by political whim?

Exactly, if this is just what they get for "making a bad investment", why are the Clintons of the world worried about law suits?

Some in the news industry have described all this heavy-handed political intervention as the Bush administration's "free-market approach" to the threat of nonperforming mortgages. On the contrary, honoring contracts and property rights is absolutely essential to the proper functioning of a free society and free economy. A mortgage is a binding contract between consenting adults. A mortgage-backed security is private property. It is the antithesis of a free market for the government to fix prices, pressure mortgage service companies into renegotiating contracts, and thereby expropriate property rights of those stuck holding mortgage-backed securities.

This was exactly my point.

They just said it better.

But then they are capitalists.





 
188biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 14:45
Wouldn't they know this by the interest rate on the loan? - Boxman

Which interest rate are you referring to? The initial low teaser rate? Or the one buried deep in the ARM addendum, that isn't even explicitly stated?

And people with good credit (Above 660 FICO), but have an ARM with a prepay penalty? What happens to them? - Nerve

Uh.... Keep paying their mortgage until the prepay runs out? Pay 6 months interest penalty? Refi? You haven't given me enough information to answer that question. Ask PD. My guess is that he was in that exact situation recently.

guess it depends on whether the investment would really lose 40% (A number you made up) Obviously if this was the case, the investors wouldn't be complaining.

Of course I made it up. We are in uncharted territory with this, and it all depends on what sort investment the investor bought. Past data isn't particularly relevant, but I've seen estimates of anywhere from 20%-60% of the investor's principal lost. But feel free to find that elusive hard number and report back. It doesn't exist.

2) take 8% instead of 12% for a few years?

Another number you made up, can you show me where these figures came from or was it "off the top of your head"?


This one is more grounded in numbers that can be determined, with reasonable assumptions. I'll let you read The magnificent Tanta, on ARM initial rates.

In this case the contract has been dramatically changed. - No, it hasn't been changed at all. Mods may not have been frequent the last ten years because they weren't necessary. In an environment with rising housing prices, you refi you don't modify. Mods are generally only frequent in downturns.

There is a level of sophistication you expect from investors that are investing in MBS, CDOs and SIVs. These are generally paid professionals who's job it is to understand their investments. This isn't Joe School Teacher and Tina Fireman who don't have that level of sophistication.

That said, I have little sympathy for those who were flipping houses or in any way trying to make a profit on the run-up in homes, as opposed to simply having a place to live, and buying into that "American Dream" bull-danky.

I'm not sure how many times I need to repeat this: The terms of the contract have NOT been changed. The contract included the servicer's ability to modify the loan. In fact, the servicers are modifying their own loans that they have for investment in their own portfolios at a much greater rate than they are modifying the loans sold to investors.

What does that tell you? Mods are cost-effective. They beat the heck out of foreclosure.

I think the upshot of this is that it is much ado about nothing. There will be very few homeowners who qualify, even fewer who think it's a good deal, and much, much fewer who won't simply default down the road. And it could have all been done by servicers even without a "Plan".

Now if they succeed in passing "FHA Modernization", now THAT'S a bailout. One a hope they don't pass, but Bush has been pushing for it for a long time, contrary to your anti-bailout theory.
 
189nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 14:49


Really to be fair. I am not passionately against a "bailout".

Things are in a mess and it's probably best for everyone something be done.

I was just having some fun responding to Beezer saying he couldn't find anything wrong with it...a challenge.

Next I thought some of Bili's points were inaccurate so I ran with them.

I didn't see "not caring a rat's ass" coming from Bili...now that's passion.

Something probably needed to be done. There's probably no easy, wonderful solution.

I don't really give a rat's ass what they do.

nerve


 
190biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 14:58
Hiding out in Dubai makes it easy, Nerve!

Yeah, I'm passionate, but for no really good reason. Mainly because I've seen the problems growing for so long, if it were obvious to me, it should have been obvious to the pros and the gov'mint.

I hate seeing the rich bilking the poor with fantasies and slight of hand. We needed strong regulation 5 (or maybe 10) years ago, to stop it.

Now it's too late to undo, and a lot of the most egregious manipulators of this scheme get off scott-free with their billions.
 
191biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 15:21
Krugman on Paulson's "Plan":

By Bush administration standards, Henry Paulson, the Treasury secretary, is a good guy. He isn’t conspicuously incompetent; and he isn’t trying to mislead us into war, justify torture or protect corrupt contractors.
---
So there are three problems. But Mr. Paulson’s plan — or, to use its official name, the Hope Now Alliance plan — is entirely focused on reducing investor losses. Any minor relief it might provide to troubled borrowers is clearly incidental. And it is does nothing for the victims of predatory lending.

The plan sets voluntary guidelines under which some, but only some, borrowers whose mortgage payments are set to rise may get temporary relief.

This is supposed to help investors, because foreclosing on a house is expensive: there are big legal fees, and the house normally sells for less than the value of the mortgage. “Foreclosure is to no one’s benefit,” said Mr. Paulson in a White House interactive forum. “I’ve heard estimates that mortgage investors lose 40 to 50 percent on their investment if it goes into foreclosure.”


I have probably undermined my argument by quoting Paulson. ;)
 
192biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 15:24
Dang! I think Krugman's been reading my posts. He hit all my high points.
 
193nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 15:51


I think the point is there are two investors here...one is being helped. The banks and big mortgage companies. I have no sympathy for them. They are the ones who "made the loans" and they are the ones who are agreeing to "the plan".

The investor I was referring to was the one who invested in mortgage backed securities. Especially the ones who didn't know there were sub primes slipped in because it wasn't disclosed and because "impartial" rating agencies like Moody's gave high ratings.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

And that's why Hillary doesn't want law suits...

 
194biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 16:04
Hillary? I guess given the choice, I would choose to get the money to those defrauded, including investors, if they were defrauded by the ratings agencies. I bet they would lose, and the lion's share the increasingly limited available money would simply get eaten by the lawyers. That's how it usually works.

Here's a nice article you will like. Conspiracy, fraud, avoidance of lawsuits.

Bankers try to avoid lawsuits with Plan.
 
195The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 18:00
I should have clarified that I find the whole process of a bailout objectionable. It would have been more accurate for me to say that I didn't find the actual proposal objectionable since it helps folks to think government is doing something, while nothing is really happening that's going to make things much worse. That's about as close to a "win" as I can ask for nowadays. Besides, the bailout's going to come from making all the pension plans whole that invested in this toxic stuff.

Hillary's plan, on the other hand, has exactly the type of thing that is going to make things much worse - foreclosure moratorium. You think we have a slow real estate market now? Just wait to see how much lending happens when lenders aren't even able to get the pledged collateral in a timely manner! Then we will really see what a frozen real estate market looks like.
 
196biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Mon, Dec 10, 2007, 20:52
Yeah - typical hillary pandering. I can't fathom how that would work. If it did, we would be following in the footsteps of Japan, imho.
 
197nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Tue, Dec 11, 2007, 07:05


Nice Link Bili...although I think Sean finishes it off a little over the top

At stake is nothing short of the continued existence of the U.S. banking system.

The Paulson background has sleaze written all over it.

 
198The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sat, Dec 15, 2007, 10:58
The Charlotte Observer today reported that contracts and closings in the Charlotte MLS for November were both down over 20% YOY. Average price was up 6%. Hmm, that sure does sound like what was happening all over the place over the last year or two before that measure started falling. Shift in overall buying patterns, anyone?

A line in the blurb stated "[Prices are] in line with what other reports have said about prices here, which remain strong despite drops in other markets across the country". I guess they meant other reports besides Case-Shiller. Whatever. They weren't spinning quite as hard today as normal - wonder if it has to do with the decline in listing in the real estate classified ads? :)
 
199Perm Dude
ID: 341124198
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 09:28
Morgan Stanley takes a $9.4 billion hit this quarter

Chairman and Chief Executive John Mack accepted blame for the fiscal fourth-quarter loss, and said he would forgo his annual bonus.

What a guy! Sounds like the guy has a future as a weasel:

Mack aggressive expanded Morgan Stanley in the past year into the home loan industry, and trading in securities that support them. That strategy backfired, and Mack pinned the disappointing results on "isolated losses by a small trading team in part of the firm."

(i.e., "my office")
 
200biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 12:22


Krugman talks to Google. It is an excellent, entertaining summary of the financial crisis. If you have an extra hour, you will be up to speed.
 
201biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 13:02
He also notes, with some ominousness and worry what I am increasingly thinking:

This is not a liquidity problem. This is a solvency problem.

If it were simply a liquidity problem, it wouldn't be reappearing.
 
202biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 13:13
S&P put 6 big bond insurers on credit-watch negative, downgrading one to junk.

If you hedge your bond risks by buying insurance, but the insurance company goes bankrupt, that is a failed strategy.

Big companies swirling into toilet, dragging ever bigger companies after them.
 
203biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 13:20
Maybe I'll start an Thrift, investment bank, hedge fund and SIV implode-o-meter.
 
204The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Tue, Jan 01, 2008, 20:50
Finally back after a lot of travel over the holidays. Observations from a couple of areas around the country:

Oklahoma:

My brother and his family have had their farm on the market for about 9 months now, with no takers. One potential buyer that was planning on converting some of the land to homesteads is no longer building, and 4 of his 7 built homes on other property nearby are for sale by him or the buyers. Fortunately milk prices are nominally higher than ever so he can handle the payment while he is attending nursing school (the rest of my family has a much higher capacity for hard work than I do). I urged him to take whatever he can get for it and get out before values go down more in 2008 - we'll see how it goes.

My best friend lives about an hour away in a town of around 15K. He said that building in his development had been consistent at around 1 per month until July, when they suddenly stopped work after pouring a foundation. Nothing new has gone up since and he estimates that home values there have returned to what he paid about 18 months ago and will likely go down. Fortunately he likes his house and neighborhood, bought well within his means, and in a good location for him and his family so he is in pretty good shape as a long-term holder.

Indiana:

Seemed about the same as when I was up there for Thanksgiving. Anecdotal note: the Eddie Bauer store at the mall in Bloomington is closing - no evidence of why. As my future in-laws are hoping to sell in the next 12 months and move close to where I bought in August, I'll be keeping a close eye on how the spring season goes up there.
 
205biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Wed, Jan 02, 2008, 12:52
Eddie Bauer had been struggling even with a strong economy, and was sold last year, iirc.

Good to hear the updates from around the country. Financially responsible folks who didn't take too many risks and over-extend should hopefully be able to ride this out, even if they bought 2005-2007 and are likely underwater or soon will be.

That said, if we see the declines I expect to see (20-30% nationwide), there are going to be a lot of folks who will be able to ride it out, who will be starting to do calculations to see if it would be smarter move to let the bank foreclose and walk away.

Traditionally there has been a stigma attached to having your house foreclosed upon, and people who are a bit underwater had, in the past, generally continued to make their payments anyway.

We are now in uncharted waters.


Question to homeowners:

If you owed $100K (or in the case of a story in California I was reading about yesterday $300K) more on your mortgage than your house was worth, with it continuing to decline in value for the foreseeable future, what would you do?

What if a few of your friends had mailed in their keys, and decreased their monthly debt-load a grand or two, were now saving money and able to eat out and go to movies again, while renting a nicer house than they had let go into foreclosure?

Would you consider foreclosure more seriously, even if you were able to still able to pay your mortgage?
 
206sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Wed, Jan 02, 2008, 14:30
I went the foreclosure route, though not by choice. House was on the market for 9+ months and we got zero offers, despite being priced BELOW appraised market value. The local ecopnomy had gone to hades and folks just werent buyiong anything. Ultimately let it go, when we couldnt pay rent in Austin and a mortgage in SIoux City.

That said, it'll be 4 more years before I can buy my way out of the credit hole, that foreclosure put me in.
 
207Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721
Wed, Jan 02, 2008, 15:33
You couldn't rent the house in Sioux City?
 
208sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Wed, Jan 02, 2008, 15:54
Tried that too. Problem with being an out-of-state landlord though. The realtor didnt figure we'd get much in the way of a renter, when we hadnt gotten so much as a nibble from any potential buyers despite the house being priced 10-15% below appraised value. The type renter we'd probably have gotten, is one where the rent wouldnt have made the payment AND the probable damage to the property would have been excessive.
 
209biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Wed, Jan 02, 2008, 16:22
Did you have equity in the house, Sarge?
 
210sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Wed, Jan 02, 2008, 16:56
Not enough to cover the payments I copuldnt make between the time we moved out and they completed foreclosure. Some equity we had, but not much.
 
211Boxman
ID: 571114225
Thu, Jan 03, 2008, 06:15
Question to homeowners:

If you owed $100K (or in the case of a story in California I was reading about yesterday $300K) more on your mortgage than your house was worth, with it continuing to decline in value for the foreseeable future, what would you do?

What if a few of your friends had mailed in their keys, and decreased their monthly debt-load a grand or two, were now saving money and able to eat out and go to movies again, while renting a nicer house than they had let go into foreclosure?

Would you consider foreclosure more seriously, even if you were able to still able to pay your mortgage?


I'll bite. If that were me this is what I'd do. This is a financially moronic comment, but oh well. I wouldn't move. A foreclosure damages your credit rating such that the next time I'm buying a car, the next house, or whatever, I'll be spending more money on interest the next time. My house is also the place that my family is comfortable and where we have roots. Provided we could afford the payments and live OK, I wouldn't move. I know you can throw numbers at me showing the financial idiocy of it all, but there are qualitative reasons for not foreclosing on something you can afford.

From my personal vantage point, I took on a mortgage so that one day I wouldn't have to pay to live somewhere eventually. No mortgage/rent payment in retirement is a huge savings. If you keep bouncing around and renting/buying/renting/buying, you may make some profit in selling the houses you "own", but in a severely down market I don't see that happening.

As far as my friends "the renters" are concerned, they'll never own that property and their credit will be damaged. Yeah they can go to the movies. Great. But when it's time to plunk down some coinage for a major purchase and I get a good rate and they get a junk rate, I'll have the last laugh.
 
212biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Thu, Jan 03, 2008, 11:47
I don't know that it's moronic, Box. As you point out, there are certainly other factors, such as quality of life, stability and credit that should weigh into it.

I certainly don't know how I would answer that question, but I hopefully will never have to find out. Single family homes would have to fall 80% from their peak, and we would both have to lose our jobs to put me in that situation.

I'm just saying that folks who are, and are struggling to barely make there payments (I wouldn't even begin to talk about the resets looming), might start considering it if they were so far underwater that they might not have equity in their homes until another 10 years of mortgage payments or more, credit hit and all - particularly if the stigma of foreclosure started to fade.

The story in Cali is of a dude trying to buy a similar house across the street from the one he owns and paid 800K for, for 500K. Then he plans to walk away from his current house. Instant 300K equity, sorta.
 
213sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jan 03, 2008, 11:56
In that scenario bili, I dont see much question really. An immediate 300k debt reduction would go a LONG ways toward offsetting any damage to ones credit rating. (ie, A person would have to finance a LOT of cars in a short time frame, for the interest difference to even begin to eat into that 300k debt reduction factor. Assuming then too, that this person stayed in that 2nd home for any length of time, they'd have ample opportunity to repair their credit over time and be just fine.) After 7 years, one can request that entries on your bureau report be removed. The only lenders then that have that derogatory info, are the ones you "burned".
 
214Perm Dude
ID: 4705538
Thu, Jan 03, 2008, 12:08
Overall debt reduction won't matter so much as cash flow, IMO. What would be the point of the buy if the cost (payments + fees + moving costs) are probably the same?

As for Box's point, many of those people are ones new to the housing market (indeed, the credit market!). I don't think lifetime renters being foreclosed on for their first home are caring so much about their credit as much as their monthly costs. At this point equity is a phantom since no one can be certain what their house will sell for.

In addition, tightening credit markets will be just as effective in keeping these people out of the home buying market as a foreclosure on their report.
 
215sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jan 03, 2008, 12:13
Overall debt reduction won't matter so much as cash flow, IMO...

Understood. But the 300k debt reduction (smaller mortgage) would certainly ease the cash flow by a couple grand per month.
 
216Perm Dude
ID: 4705538
Thu, Jan 03, 2008, 12:35
You would think. And all other things being equal I would agree with you. But things aren't equal anymore. Interest rates are going up overall and the less credit-worthy (like those who are foreclosed upon) are paying more points and even higher interest on their mortgages, with more up-front costs. Depending upon the part of the country, there might not be any gain at all.
 
217sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jan 03, 2008, 12:37
Which is why you get the 2nd mortgage BEFORE you let the first one go back.
 
218Perm Dude
ID: 4705538
Thu, Jan 03, 2008, 12:48
Interest rates are already up. You are right that a foreclosure would drive them higher, but my analysis assumes a second mortgage is gotten before the foreclosure.

The timing at this point won't help all that much. The costs are there whether it is a first or second mortgage. The banks aren't going to lose money just because a host of their recent loans are defaulting!
 
219biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Thu, Jan 03, 2008, 13:53
In this particular example, the dude currently has a 80/20 (no money down) 2% teaser about to reset and the 800K mortgage, and a 770 FICO.

Rates are still mighty low. With that FICO, he should be able to get a 30-year fixed at around 6%. A dream mortgage. 400K/yr income, so payment would be no problem.

The question becomes is this fraud, if he doesn't share with the new lender that he plans to default? If the underwriter is savvy, they'll figure it out by the addresses and tell him to suck eggs. If he walks from one mortgage, he'll walk from another - particularly after he no longer cares about his previously trashed FICO.
 
220sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jan 03, 2008, 13:56
Even by adding 2.5% to the 500k mortgage vs the 800k, the monthly is 1200 lower than previously.
 
221Perm Dude
ID: 39014118
Fri, Jan 11, 2008, 09:16
BoA buying Countrywide

They saw a deal, I suspect, and are buying low.
 
222biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, Jan 11, 2008, 10:11
Herb Greenberg speculates...

1. The Fed is behind the deal.
2. The Fed is behind the deal because the rumors yesterday of a near bankruptcy were probably true.
3. As part of the deal, the government likely agrees to guarantee BofA against Countrywide-related losses.
4. Lost in the in the noise yesterday was that Moodys downgraded the ratings on 30 (count em THIRTY!) tranches of Countrywides mortgage debt by more than a few notches. They did something similar before American Home Mortgage filed for bankruptcy.
5. Investors bid the stock higher assuming a premium when its likely that BofA still needs to fully assess the value of the assets before the deals full value will be known.
6. Big question, of course, is what Countrywide investors will get.
7. Rule of thumb with bankruptcies: Stocks often double on their way to zero.
8. BofA gets a free bank and a put to the government.
 
223boikin
ID: 59831214
Fri, Jan 11, 2008, 11:29
i guess i should have listened to my friend he told me to buy country wide stock week or so ago, or maybe BoA listened to him.
 
224The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sat, Jan 12, 2008, 13:01
As expected, my local paper was saturated with coverage of the Countrywide deal (since BoA is based in Charlotte). I'm not really happy about this deal since I just consolidated all the funds I had into my BoA accounts since they hadn't been a big participant in subprime. Now they are in with both feet, so I need to diversify a bit in case the unthinkable happens.

On the housing front, the other big story in today's paper was about the continuing troubles for Beazer. Now that their stock is below $5/share, they are likely looking at delisting from the NYSE. That's definitely not going to help them in their fight to stay solvent. Bankruptcy in six months seems most likely to me as they are just too overextended.
 
225sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 11:01
24.8% decline in new housing starts for 2007. 2nd biggest decline on record.
 
226Boldwin
ID: 120301616
Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 11:23
In Minneapolis where my two sons where driven out of the drywall business by Mexican labor, drywall is so bad that work is being bid as low as a third of union rates.

I suppose this will be followed up by a post from Walk or PD claiming that immigrants only want the jobs americans don't want and won't do.

Consider yourself warned. What business did you say you were in again?
 
227sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 11:28
^ Pretty sure that marks the first ever post, where Boldwin was in "support" of Labor Union(s)/rates.
 
228Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 12:03
LOL Sarge. And of course its also an argument for going after both people and firms that hire illegals, for making it easier for foreigners to come here and work legally and to enforce minimum wage standards.
 
229Perm Dude
ID: 2609178
Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 12:09
I find it telling that B fails to make any distinction between illegal and legal immigrants--lumping them all together as "immigrants." No one on this forum, as far as I know, has made an argument about the working habits of legal immigrants.

And no, "you know what I mean" won't cut it.
 
230biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 13:01
Yeah, it must be wetbacks stealing your sons' jobs. I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with historically meager housing starts.

You seem to be a fan of capitalism, Baldwin, except with it effects you and yours. Though there is some crappy pieces of capitalism, competition and shifting the work-force towards higher efficiency jobs is a great part of capitalism.

One of the nasty side-effects of capitalism is the greed that brokers, lenders, wall street slicks and developers succumbed to which drove the market down this nasty path. What did you say you've been doing for work this decade again, Baldwin?
 
231Perm Dude
ID: 2609178
Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 13:03
He sometimes rents his brain out to Ann Coulter.
 
232Boldwin
ID: 120301616
Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 20:00
The reason I don't specify exactly what sort of immigrant took my sons' jobs is because I don't know. All I know is that it was Mexicans willing to work for 1/3.
 
233Perm Dude
ID: 2609178
Thu, Jan 17, 2008, 20:45
So how do you know they are immigrants at all? Seems to be a bunch of assumptions being made.
 
234Boldwin
ID: 120301616
Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 02:22
Well heck, PD, I think you just solved McCain's problem. Call his people up and have them just deny the whole thing, 'what immigrants'?
 
235Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 08:35
Wasn't aware B was so generrally anti-immigrant. From what I've seen most conservatiuves go to lengths to stress that they only seek to stem the tide of illegals, not of immigrants in general.

Drinking the Republican kool-aid over the last 7 years means you believe the economy has been incredibly healthy and that the unenemployment rate has been very low over that period. Are your sons not content with the payroll scale at Wal-Mart?
 
236Boldwin
ID: 120301616
Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 12:50
It does go deeper than just illegal immigration. It goes to the covert and relentless movement towards a forced merger of Mexico/Canada/USA without a speck of honesty or pretense of democratic decision making.

It's a combination of outrage over the power-elite's dishonesty, all the blathering about democracy the power-elite pumped out over the years when they didn't believe in it for a minute, irritation over the blindness of the public to see this, etc.
 
237Perm Dude
ID: 29028188
Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 12:53
Oh man. There is no "forced merger." Christ. If you ever put aside your relentless paranoia I suspect you'd really be a sharp tack.
 
238sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 12:54
So just help me to understand B;

Are you in favor of a free and open US market, where demand dictates pricing, or are you in favor of forcing higher cost Union Labor be used and artificial forces drive the decisions on wage?

I'm confused you see, and seek your ever wise council on this subject.
 
239biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 13:17
It's hard to pin someone down who allows their principals to be guided by their opposition to conspiracy, real or imagined.

 
240Boldwin
ID: 120301616
Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 22:53
Sarge

Most people will agree that unions once filled a neccessary role but that they overplayed their hand.

I'm not against the effects of unionization until they start killing off their industry with excessive extortionate demands.

I am also uncomfortable with unions because they create a new division of haves and have-nots, those who can extort excessive wages who then drive up the costs for those whose wages cannot keep up.

To more directly address Sarge's challenge in the specific, the drywall union prolly should have adjusted their scale to reflect the market conditions.

However I don't see how opening the border and allowing a sudden influx of overwhelming numbers willing to work for may times less than the going rate, constitutes anything other than an artificial market condition. Which Sarge is all for. I wonder how he reacts when they fire all non-bilingual car salesmen, or he is denied promotion because he is not bilingual?
 
241biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, Jan 18, 2008, 23:48
I believe Sarge has been pretty staunchly anti-illegal immigration, iirc.

It's not an artificial market condition, it's just a global market for labor, instead of national.
 
242Boldwin
ID: 120301616
Sat, Jan 19, 2008, 00:45
Forcing people to adjust from one to the other virtually overnight in what is purported to be a democracy is certainly artificial. Anyone who doesn't see that, must foolishly think they are somehow immune to the repercusions.
 
243Boldwin
ID: 120301616
Sat, Jan 19, 2008, 00:47
The real kicker is that the people this falls on the hardest are the poor and minorities that Dems claim to safeguard and care about.
 
244biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Sat, Jan 19, 2008, 01:04
Nobody's immune to the repercussions.

If you think immigrant labor is new and occurred overnight, you have be walking around with a bag over your head your entire lifetime.

What tribe are you from, btw?

Immigrant labor is also generally poor and minority.

For a Christian, you have an amazing ability to ignore the plight vast majority of humanity; the portion that doesn't wave the stars and stripes.
 
245Boldwin
ID: 1055190
Sat, Jan 19, 2008, 02:02
I don't ignore it. I know the solution, God's Kingdom.

I am also all too aware of the phony solution being offered in it's place.

 
246The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Wed, Jan 23, 2008, 22:44
Another local observation: the folks across the road from where I am renting (I'll be moving from here to the house we bought later in the year) recently sold land to someone to have a house built. I had been watching the walls go up, other stuff went on, bricks were delivered to put up around the house, then - nothing. Not sure what happened but building hasn't been going on in at least a month. The weather here has been a bit chilly but there have been good weather days, so it's not that. Not sure if this is a one-off or a symptom of the national issues, but it's interesting to note the timing.
 
247biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 14:21
Hey Beezer - am I correct in guessing you read Calculated Risk?

OT: There was an interesting story on NPR on Monday about West Charlotte High and how though Charlotte was once touted as the first great success with integration, the schools now are more segregated than ever. Did you listen to it? Pretty interesting history.
 
248The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 18:34
bili, CR is usually the first or second site I look at when I've been away for any length of time. CR and Tanta do a fantastic job of keeping up on all the news going on.

I didn't catch that story on NPR but I'll look for it later this week. Thanks for the heads-up.

I am INCENSED by the plans to increase the maximum limit allowed to the GSE and FHA. I have emailed my Congresscritters (for what good that will do) and would encourage anyone that doesn't want their taxes eventually going to waste from guaranteed loans to idiots that buy more house than they can afford. This is bad policy in every sense of the word.
 
249biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Thu, Jan 24, 2008, 19:02
Word. $625K? You'd have to be making 300K/yr to reasonably be making that kinda payment. Anyone making that kinda jack shouldn't need no stinkin' bailout. Anybody not making the cash shouldn't be taking out a monstrous mortgage.

I'm annoyed they didn't get some infrastructure money in there. We are going to be seeing a flood of construction types washing into the unemployment lines real soon, and I'd rather pay 'em to build me a bridge or a light-rail system than collect extended unemployment. Our country (or at least around here) is falling apart from decades of deferred infrastructure maintenance and upgrades.

Though the title doesn't sound quite right, this might be it: Charlotte - Brown v. Board of Ed.
 
250The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sat, Jan 26, 2008, 16:44
Very little about the housing market in today's Observer other than Harney's column about appraisers alleging coercion to maintain high prices (no surprise here) and the new real estate Q&A person that replaced Robert Bruss after his untimely death. She advocated to one writer to sell a house now and buy another to be able to get tax-free price appreciation over the next few years. Yeah, good luck with that house appreciation thing - at least she got the sell part right, eh?

I can't find the link I read it from, but I saw an article that speculated that if conforming limits are raised, it may actually result in rising interest rates for most borrowers, as "agency" debt would have more higher-value property that is considered risky by the current market mixed with the current loans that the GSEs buy. It seems like that's reasonable, so it would likely result in these loans being split into a separate stream of debt for repurchase. That would likely mean that rates for current "jumbo" loans would likely decline only slightly as risk-averse buyers aren't terribly interested in this debt.

Serious question though - if you're going to raise the conforming limit over 600K, why not just get rid of it entirely? Either it doesn't matter if a property is expensive or not, which means there doesn't need to be a limit, or it does get riskier as debt gets more expensive, which means that the recent proposals will prove more risky to the "implicit" backers of these loans, U.S. taxpayers. What's the counterargument?
 
251The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sat, Jan 26, 2008, 16:47
Found the post on conforming limit impact at CalculatedRisk.
 
252sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 11:55
ARSON...weapon of choice when facing foreclosure?
 
253The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sat, Feb 02, 2008, 10:34
Checking in on the Saturday Observer, and it doesn't take long to find a housing story - it's the primary story on the front page.

"Beazer leaving area amid investigations" is the headline, and that's not the only thing they are changing. They are also moving out of Columbia, SC; Lexington, KY; and Cincinnati, Dayton, and Columbus, OH. Lastly, Beazer is closing its national mortgage unit and instead is going with a more credible preferred mortgage partner - Countrywide. You may be able to hear me laughing from wherever you are.

Speaking of Countrywide, a local column mentioned that several counties in the Charlotte region, including Charlotte's own county of Mecklenburg have all been rated a "2" for moderate risk, which means that some buyers in those areas will be required to put 10% down instead of only 5%. I'm sure that will be welcome news to the local real estate market.

From earlier in the week, another condo project has been delayed to await more favorable financial conditions. 300 South Tryon is now on hold, which means that the back page of the Saturday AtHome section now needs a new advertiser as that project has been a staple for the last few months.

With all this going on, it promises to be an interesting spring. I suspect that the expected "spring bounce" will be muted and will contribute to a lot of heartburn for the market in this area.
 
254biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 02:09


Hope Now looks hopeless (don't tell Barack). 2 trillion call, 3 helped.

Or something like that.

Now we have Lifeline - Basically saying lenders will send a letter to those behind on their mortgage, and maybe we can work something out. Give us a jingle. How this is different than what they are (or should be) doing already, I have no idea.
 
255The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 18:14
January existing home sales in the Charlotte area are up 5% according to the Observer. I figured they were doing the slimy reporting thing of comparing it to December, but it actually was up 5% compared to January 2007. Average price was down about .3% so not much change there. Maybe it really is different here, or maybe it's just a blip. I'll definitely be watching it closely.
 
256biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 18:22
Yeah, I was looking at Charlotte the other day, Beezer.

You really missed the boom that many of the coastal regions went through from 2002-2006. You were sitting at price to income ratio at around 3 and mortgage to rent below 1 up until 2006. It's hard to think of Charlotte as a bubble area as a consequence.

You have seen some high appreciation from late 2006 until now, but you aren't nearly as out-of-whack on the fundamentals as many places.

I'd expect Charlotte to retrace only 5-10%, or more likely sit flat on prices and wait while income and inflation correct the ratios.
 
257The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 18:31
Agreed bili. I think your flat scenario is very likely.
 
258biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 18:33
That's late 2005, not 2006.

I have some friends who bought a house in Charlotte a couple of years ago. I was a bit worried, because they extended themselves a bit. Now I'm not too worried.
 
259The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 11:27
Charlotte Regional Realtor Association: Oops!

January 2008 sales were incorrectly reported on 2/13. Instead of being up 5%, they were down 23% compared to January 2007. Sales have dropped YOY over 20% for the last three months and have been down for 12 consecutive months. I guess it's not as different here as we thought. Back to worrying.
 
260Perm Dude
ID: 36118207
Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 13:10
Well, looks like we're going to sidestep the whole selling thing right now. More info later, but in a few weeks this'll be the new Perm Dude home:

PD's place

It shows a lot better than the pics.

Still selling the old place, but hopefully with it empty it will be easier to do the work that needs to be done. And simpler to keep clean.

pd
 
261Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 14:36
Looks like some funky window coverings in the new digs, PD.
If you want some new stuff at monster discount, let me know. Shipped to your door. I won't be going to Pennsylvania to install, though, so that's on you.

There are tons of internet sites with products and colors. I carry most brands.
 
262Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 14:42
PV does that mean I should have talked to you before I bought the wood blinds I'm waiting on?
 
263Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 15:04
What brand, MITH?
 
264Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 15:10
I went with the cheap faux wood product at yourblinds.com. The site called them 'standard basics' or something.
 
265Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 15:21
Well, there's faux wood blinds and then there's cheap faux wood blinds that yellow in a year or two, have plastic(as opposed to metal)headrails and barrels(leads to bowing), as well as trailer park valances.

I sell nice faux woods for about $4 a sq ft, so a 4x4 window = $68.
 
266Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 15:34
Sounds like I might be looking you up in a year or two to help me replace my yellowed window coverings.
 
267Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 16:49
According to the T-shirts, "Ithaca is Gorges".

Supposedly, I am a direct descendant of Daniel D. Tompkins, the 5th VP of the US and the namesake of your new county. I haven't investigated this claim, however.

You move across state lines often enough to make me think you are being followed by Javier Bardem from No Country for Old Men.

Hope you enjoy your new home. That whole suicide stuff is urban legend.
 
268Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Feb 20, 2008, 17:00
Congrats, PD. The Finger Lakes region is some really beautiful country. I have a very close friend who went to Cortland, lived in nearby Homer for a couple of years and has settled down in Corning. If work didn't keep me chained to the NYC area I'd probably try to relocate up there.

 
269sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Feb 22, 2008, 13:31
Well, one thing I can say for an absolute fact that has contributed to the current "mortgage crisis"; is just plain stupid lending.

In the past week, I've seen no less than 3/day, people who are home-owners with under 2 yrs in residence, and bureau score BELOW 500. Now, it takes work, I mean you have to REALLY work at ignoring your obligations, to score under 500.
 
270biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Fri, Feb 22, 2008, 13:55
Congratulations, PD! That's a beautiful house. I'd love to find something as nice around here for 4 times the price.

Ah, the rolling hills of Western NY. You aren't going to be too far from my Alma Mater. I used to canvas for NYPIRG up there. Might have knocked on that very door.

Did a tour of the vast swathes of vacant McMansions and Townhomes, shoulder-to-shoulder, butting right up to Red Rock Canyon yesterday. And they are still building! Vegas is in serious, serious trouble.
 
271Perm Dude
ID: 32112228
Fri, Feb 22, 2008, 14:01
Yeah, you'll have to let me know when you are back in the area. It won't take too much of an excuse for me to take the kids down the the Discovery Center there.
 
272 sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 10:54
***I got a Powerpoint slideshow in my email that would be appropriate to this thread, but I can't upload it to imageshack to link to it. Anyone have the means and the inclination, email me and I'll send you the presentation so you can upload/link to it. Thanks.***
 
273Boxman
ID: 337352111
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 13:25
From the WSJ.

How to Stop the Mortgage Crisis
By MARTIN FELDSTEIN
March 7, 2008; Page A15

The potential collapse of house prices, accompanied by widespread mortgage defaults, is a major threat to the American economy. A voluntary loan-substitution program could reduce the number of defaults and dampen the decline in house prices -- without violating contracts, bailing out lenders or borrowers, or increasing government spending.

The unprecedented combination of rapid house-price increases, high loan-to-value (LTV) ratios, and securitized mortgages has made the current housing-related risk greater than anything we have seen since the 1930s. House prices exploded between 2000 and 2006, rising some 60% more than the level of rents. The inevitable decline since mid-2006 has reduced prices by 10%. Experts forecast an additional 15% to 20% decline to correct the excessive rise. The real danger is that prices could fall substantially further if there are widespread defaults and foreclosures.

Irresponsible lending created new mortgages with LTV ratios of nearly 100%. By the end of 2006, the fall in prices caused 7% of mortgages to have LTV ratios above 100%. A further 20% of mortgages had LTV ratios over 80% and will shift to negative equity as prices decline.

Most mortgages are no longer held by originating lenders, but are securitized and sold to investors world-wide. More significant, mortgages are used to create complex, asset-backed securities that are central to current credit-market problems. Investors no longer own specific mortgages, but only have rights to certain conditional payment streams. So generally, it is no longer possible to prevent foreclosures by negotiations between borrowers and lenders.

The 1.8 million mortgages now in default have created substantial personal hardship. The 10% decline in house prices has cut household wealth by more than $2 trillion, reducing consumer spending and increasing the risk of a deep recession. Defaults also damage the capital of lending institutions, causing further declines in credit and economic activity.

Rising unemployment during a downturn will force more homeowners to default, driving house prices lower. Since mortgages are generally "no recourse" loans, when there is a default the mortgage lender can only collect the value of the property. The lender does not have the right to seize other property (a car, a boat, money in the bank) or to put a lien on future wages. Thus, a homeowner with a mortgage that exceeds the value of his house has a strong incentive to default, even if he can afford to make the monthly payments.

Optimists note that homeowners with negative equity have generally been reluctant to default in past years. That was sensible when house prices were rising. But with house prices falling, defaulting on the mortgage is the rational thing to do.

Limiting the number of such defaults, and preventing the overshooting of price declines, requires a public policy to reduce the number of homeowners who will slide into negative equity. Since house prices still have further to fall, this can only be done by a reduction in the value of mortgages.

None of the current mortgage-reduction proposals are satisfactory. Although bankers sometimes have the incentive to reduce mortgage-loan balances voluntarily in order to avoid a foreclosure, this is usually not possible because the syndication of mortgage loans means that there is generally not a single lender who can agree to the mortgage writedown.

Proposals to force creditors to accept write-downs of interest or principal violate their contractual rights, reducing the future availability of mortgage credit and raising the relative interest rate on future mortgages. Reviving the depression-era Home Owners' Loan Corporation would have the government use taxpayer money to pay off existing loans and become the largest mortgage lender in the country. This would require an enormous federal bureaucracy of appraisers and loan agents.

If the government is to reduce significantly the number of future defaults, something fundamentally different is needed. Although there is no perfect plan, a program of federal mortgage-paydown loans to individuals, secured by future income rather than by a formal mortgage, could reduce the number of mortgages with high LTV ratios and cut future defaults.

Here's one way that such a program might work:

The federal government would lend each participant 20% of that individual's current mortgage, with a 15-year payback period and an adjustable interest rate based on what the government pays on two-year Treasury debt (now just 1.6%). The loan proceeds would immediately reduce the borrower's primary mortgage, cutting interest and principal payments by 20%. Participation in the program would be voluntary and participants could prepay the government loan at any time.

The legislation creating these loans would stipulate that the interest payments would be, like mortgage interest, tax deductible. Individuals who accept the government loan would be precluded from increasing the value of their existing mortgage debt. The legislation would also provide that the government must be repaid before any creditor other than the mortgage lenders.

Although individuals who accept the loan would not be lowering their total debt, they would pay less in total interest. In exchange for that reduction in interest, they would decrease the amount of the debt that they can escape by defaulting on their mortgage. The debt to the government would still have to be paid, even if they default on their mortgage.

Participation will therefore not be attractive to those whose mortgages that already exceed the value of their homes. But for the vast majority of other homeowners, the loan-substitution program would provide an attractive opportunity.

Although home owners may recognize that the national average level of house prices has further to fall, they do not know what will happen to the price of their own home. They will participate if they prefer the certainty of an immediate and permanent reduction in their interest cost to the possible option of defaulting later if the price of their own home falls substantially.

The loan-substitution program would decrease the number of homeowners who would come to have negative equity as house prices decline. That reduces the number of homeowners who will have an incentive to default, thereby limiting the risk of a downward spiral of house prices.

Since individuals now have the right to prepay any part of their mortgage debt, the 20% reduction in the mortgage balance would not violate mortgage creditors' rights. Creditors should welcome the mortgage paydowns, because they make the remaining mortgage debt more secure. The 20% repayments to creditors would also create a major source of funds that should stimulate all forms of lending.

The simplest way to administer the new loans would be for the current mortgage servicer to collect on behalf of the government and remit those funds to Washington. There would be no need for a new government bureaucracy, for new appraisals, or for negotiations in bankruptcy. The program could be up and running within months after the legislation is passed.

The government would fund these loans by issuing new two-year debt and rolling over the debt until the loans are fully repaid, thus eliminating any net cost to the government. The government loans would not add to the budget deficit or to the net debt of the nation. Gross government debt would rise by the amount of the new government lending, but this would be balanced by the asset value of those loans.

The current possibility of widespread defaults is a cloud over all mortgage-backed securities, and over credit markets generally. The uncertainty about the future value of such asset-backed loans has been a primary reason credit markets have become dysfunctional. And without a flow of credit, the economy cannot expand.

To lower the risk of a downward spiral of house prices and to revive the frozen credit markets, the government must move quickly to reduce the potential number of mortgage defaults. A loan substitution program may be the best way to achieve that.

Mr. Feldstein, chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Reagan, is a professor at Harvard and a member of The Wall Street Journal's board of contributors.
 
274biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 13:46
Sounds almost reasonable, accept:

The loan proceeds would immediately reduce the borrower's primary mortgage, cutting interest and principal payments by 20%.

The legislation would also provide that the government must be repaid before any creditor other than the mortgage lenders.

So in actuality what will happen is the tax-payer mails off maybe as much as a trillion dollars to lenders and investors that were making extremely bad bets on home mortgages for the last 5 years.

And the taxpayer, for all that cash, doesn't even get to move to the head of the line in collecting future payments?

Talk about a moral hazard.
 
275sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 14:10
What is the default rate on student loans and what would make this any different?
 
276biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 15:04
You can't declare bankruptcy with student loans.

You also don't get tossed on the street when you don't pay.
 
277sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 15:16
and which politicians would/could weather the storm of foreclosing on people and "tossing them on the street"? I simply dont see that happening. Nor, do I see the majority of people repaying the Govt before their VISA, cable etc bills.
 
278biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 15:34
Huh? We are already at record foreclosures. Almost 1% of the mortgages were foreclosed upon last quarter. Probably most go to renting vs. camping in the park, but not all.

Something you might feel more closely than most: I heard this morning that their were around 150,000 veterans on the street alone.
 
279sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 15:44
Not questioning that we HAVE foreclosures. Debating whether the Govt would be foreclosing over defaults on the repayment of the above, as per the (to my undserstanding) large nr of student loan defaults.

When I asked my question above re the two, I wasnt referring to defaulting on the martgage payment itself, just that govts payment. I dont see it working very well.
 
280Perm Dude
ID: 025577
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 15:54
Student loans (the amounts of which are often far, far less than mortgage amounts) are almost always recoverable to a large degree. They cannot be discharged through bankruptcy (unlike mortgages), and the people holding those loans generally have more disposable income to collect (and garnish). The government can also collect defaulted loan amounts via tax refunds (and, later, through Social Security payments. Student loans have no statute of limitations).

 
281biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 17:37
Student loans have no statute of limitations

That's actually not quite true. After 25 years it will be forgiven. But you then have to pay taxes on them, as the loan amount that is forgiven is treated as income.

As an example, my sister deferred payment on her student loan for about 5 years. I'm not sure how she got such a bad interest rate, but by the time she decided to start paying on it she'd run it up to close to 100K. She couldn't possibly even pay the interest and eat at the same time.

So I looked into it and crunched the numbers. If she continued to pay just the minimum on it, after 25 years she would owe 400K+. They would then discharge her debt, but she would have to pay 100K in taxes. Perhaps if you could count on 7% inflation for those 25 years, or the tax rate for the indigent dropping to 0, it would have been worth it.
 
282Perm Dude
ID: 025577
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 17:48
Lockhart v US (2005) held that the statute of limitations did not apply in this case (SCOTUS Opinion (pdf))
 
283biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 18:05
Huh. Thanks, PD.

Well that judgment seems pretty narrowly specified to "using government offsets". I'd guess that it's 50/50 that my sister will ever receive SS benes, but it's still good to know.

Of course, I'm sure there will be half a dozen other amendments which F the poor up even further up the A between now and when my sister would have had to face the music (we worked it out another way), so who knows.

The upshot is we sure do treat our citizens like feces if they don't have money.

Bring back the debtor's prisons!
 
284The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 15:04
Calculated Risk investigates the Feldman plan and finds it wanting.

I was in Vegas last week for my favorite company's annual sales meeting (my folks and I went out there to fix laptops). I talked with one employee that bought a house in Vegas in 2004 who stated that "it's a good thing I like living here, because I can't afford to move". She also said that sales in the area were pretty lousy and 2008u looks like a tough year for their area.

The sheer number of houses for sale in Vegas and the huge increase in houses built since I was last out there in 2005 was breathtaking. Anyone who thinks that we'll quickly work through the housing issues needs to take a drive around Vegas and visit some subdivisions.
 
285The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 18:29
Housing starts and permits are finally down below new home sales. It's at least a start on trying to get inventories down. Now the existing home market needs to correct, and who knows how many builders can actually stay in business at current start levels. Not out of the woods yet but at least some reality has set in.
 
286sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:17
WaMu

Not so sure this shouldnt be in the Market thread vs here, but:

WaMu: Skip customers; save the execs

As mortgage holders face foreclosure and shareholders take a bath, troubled Washington Mutual takes action -- to protect executive bonuses. It could be a trend.

After CEO Kerry Killinger and other top executives missed all or a big part of their bonus pay last year, Washington Mutual wasted little time taking steps to apparently make sure it won't happen again -- even if the mortgage market and the company remain in the tank.

The board decided in February to use different performance yardsticks that could make it look like Killinger and other top executives were doing great jobs -- and all but ensure them millions of dollars in bonuses for 2008.

Those huge losses piling up because of subprime loans and foreclosures? At bonus time, the bank will ignore them.

"I would love to be able to do that," says Judy Lederman, a single mom in Scarsdale, N.Y., who won't be able to ignore the financial consequences of a potential foreclosure. She recently lost her job as a regional public-relations manager for a major retail chain. Washington Mutual handles her mortgage."I'm stupefied at the prospect of losing my home and scared stiff of the financial implications," she says.

Changing the rules
She'll be held to the rules in her mortgage agreement. Washington Mutual execs will collect bonus pay under new, easier-to-satisfy rules:

Bonuses are now linked to achievements like growth in retail banking fees. That hardly seems a strenuous hurdle given the way ATM and other bank fees are rising.

Executive bonuses will be doled out for squishy achievements such as improvements in customer loyalty.

When the bank does use traditional metrics like profitability, it won't count the impact of mortgage losses and foreclosure costs.
...


Absolutely unforgivable IMHO.

 
287biliruben
ID: 33258140
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:35
A-greed.
 
288boikin
ID: 59831214
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 17:09
i just thought i would add this observation here i hope it fits. So i was in Orlando this weekend being shown around by a friend, who cowencediently works for a home builder, all these new neigborhood projects. as i riding around i am struck by the fact that the smallest of the homes is like 2500 sqft and that they are being marketed to the middle class, i mean who needs a house this big? when they can probably afford it and why do home builders feel the need to push them on the market. I just seemed like disaster waiting to happen.
 
289biliruben
ID: 92181821
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 01:58
That's the sort of thing I'm amazed at when I see the jumbo limits raised. 417K loan is over 3K/mo. We are targeting people who can afford MORE than that for help? Huh? As a taxpayer, I have no interest in helping someone with a 500K mortgage.
 
290sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 10:40
Agree there bili. Anyone undertaking a 3k/m mortgage, shouldnt be in line for tax-payer bailouts. Folks I favor assisting with this fiasco, are those whose mortgages are (arbitrary nr pulled out of the air) maybe not more than 70% of the median price for that area, that have served as primary residance for the borrower since not more than 30 days after loan inception and is STILL the primary residence of the borrower. (IOW, I'm not at ALL in favor of assisting ANYONE with a 2nd or 3rd residence with their mortgage woes. IMO, those are called speculators/investors....you pays your money and you takes your chances.)
 
291Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 10:44
An update on #260: We ended up pulling out of the deal this week. Made the offer, had the inspection and the seller made a couple of repairs, but my mother-in-law (a 16 year breast cancer survivor) was diagnosed with bone cancer. It is agressive, pervasive, and the prognosis is very poor.

A great house, but family is much more important, so we're staying put for right now.
 
292sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 10:46
Sorry to hear about your Mother-in-laws health issues Fred. You know of course that you and yours, have my best wishes at hopes.
 
293biliruben
ID: 33258140
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 13:09
Really sorry to hear that, Fred.
 
294The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 13:12
Hate to hear that Fred. My thoughts are with you.
 
295The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 13:23
Yesterday's Observer had a nice front page article headlined "Uptown condo boom fades, as downturn sets in". Projects are on hold and there aren't full-page ads for condo projects in the home section any more.

Not so much in today's paper, except an article that regional MLS systems will stop listing accurate square footage for properties starting next week. Instead, a range will be listed as the argument is that it's too difficult to accurately determine square footage. This sounds like a load of hogwash to me - I'm sure the effect of making it more difficult to accurately determine $/square foot is not a factor in this at all, eh?
 
296biliruben
ID: 92181821
Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 14:02
My guess is that folks were using incorrect sqft at a reason to back out of contracts.
 
297biliruben
ID: 92181821
Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 14:05
I'm madly trying to get my house ready to sell. I figure there is still just enough folks that still think the air of Seattle is filled with Pixie dust and we will avoid the downturn that if I get it on the market by May 1st, I'll have a shot at a buyer.

Time to rent!
 
298The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 10:10
Good luck bili. I think as long as you're aggressive on pricing you should be fine. Greed will not be the friend of a lot of your fellow sellers this year.

As much as I'd like to think that we may be near some kind of bottom in the housing market, I keep coming back to two things:

1. ARM resets continue to be at very high levels, with the Option ARM phase not yet even kicked in
2. Home price levels in most large areas are still too high compared to median household incomes

Until those two factors have been corrected, I fail to see how prices can continue to go anywhere but down. Granted, some areas where price levels have aligned should be less prone to this, so there may be areas that have most of their pain behind them.
 
299nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 12:22


Bili gutsy move and if your sure of an impending downturn in Seattle it's a very wise investment move. I know I mentioned it a year or two ago as an option but you seemed intent on staying put then.

Low and behold Seattle's market has hung in there.

Now that interest rates are coming down is there no way Seattle dodges the bullet?

 
300biliruben
ID: 45252317
Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 19:35
Well mortgage interest rates are actually going up.

We'll see how we do. I'll definitely be pricing at the bottom of the range for houses in the area.

If we don't sell in 2 months, we'll likely move back in and enjoy the floors.
 
301The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 18:53
Wow, California is absolutely getting hammered. 39% YOY median price decline in Santa Barbara county. Yikes!
 
302Seattle Zen
ID: 29241823
Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 10:08


California has seen this happen before. The second half of the Eighties saw very stagnant housing prices. Who knows how long the correction will last.
 
303biliruben
ID: 51232515
Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:01
LA dropped 30% over 6 years in the early 90s.
 
304Boldwin
ID: 332562616
Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 12:05
Sarge #33

The disconnect between the stockholders' interests and the board of directors actions is a very peculiar and troubling and near universal problem for capitalism in America particularly.

Does anyone know why this is so prevalent here moreso than elsewhere? Why aren't they held accountable in the elections of the directors?
 
305biliruben
ID: 48359221
Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 02:05
They're trying to get something through the Senate to help on
foreclosures. Doesn't sound like much. 20 billion or so.

- $1000 tax credit for mortgage interest - nice because it helps
the lower end homeowner who doesn't itemize, but a pittance.

- some help (14 billion) to refi subprime and for municipalities
to buy foreclosures - again too tiny to be meaningful.

- A few bucks for counselling.

- $7000 tax credit for buyers of foreclosures and a tax break for
developers. These may end up being the meet of the bill, yet I
don't see how they help the homeowner at all. This for builders,
developers and speculators.

What's missing is what would have actually effective - cram-
downs. These allow bankruptcy judges to force lenders to lower
the principal owed.

Hand-waving.
 
306revvingparson
ID: 54292816
Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 12:32
Haven't read the fine details but my basic thoughts come down to only those who actually live in the home under discussion should even be considered for help. But we need to be careful that we don't artificially "solve" the problem only to have then market work out at a later date {nonelection year yes I'm a cynic}.

There should be no assistance to builders{who should have seen all the empty homes around the ones they were building}, people who bought a second/vacation home{cry me a river}, people who who bought with speculation in mind{never lived in the home but saw one too many cable shows flipping for profit}, and the banks/mortgage companies{shouldn't have given out loans to someone who did not have the income to pay it back}. In 3 of the 4 instances I've mentioned each party understands very well the risk/reward, where the second home buyers don't need my taxes to bail them out.

rev
 
307biliruben
ID: 33258140
Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 13:20
Totally in agreement on those points, rev.

I think the Senate is on the same page with second homes, though speculation's sometimes harder to discern. For instance, the flipper next to me might end up losing his shirt, but he somehow qualified for an owner-occupied loan. He shouldn't be helped but he might.

The lenders and builders will get a helping hand, because that's how are fine country works. Capitalism for the little guy, socialism for the corporations.

 
308Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, Apr 14, 2008, 14:05


Looks like Ireland is in worse shape than we are. Perhaps their "economic miracle" was buoyed by a real estate bubble.
For countries like Ireland, where prices were even more inflated than in the United States, it has been a painful education, as homeowners learn the American vocabulary of misery. We know were already in negative equity, said Emma Linnane, a 31-year-old university administrator. She bought a cozy, one-bedroom apartment in the Dublin suburbs with her fianc, Paul Colgan, in May 2006, at the peak of the market. They paid $575,000 at least $100,000 more than it would fetch today. I sometimes get shivers thinking about it, Ms. Linnane said, but Ill let the reality hit me when I go to sell it.

Housing Woes in U.S. Spread Around Globe
 
309biliruben
ID: 33258140
Mon, Apr 14, 2008, 14:16
I'm having a tough time pricing my house. The market is falling so fast that my pessimistic "aim-just below the market" price is now way over-priced, looking at the comps for the last 3 months. It looks like my area has dropped 15% in 6 months, and my house is dropping a $1000/wk. I'm going to price it at about what I think it's worth on Monday, and then cut aggressively below-market if I don't have an offer in 2 weeks. I don't want this house to linger on the market, but I don't want to leave any money on the table either.

The temptation to chase the market is strong. I am getting a strong, personal understanding of why housing prices are sticky on the way down.
 
310The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Mon, Apr 14, 2008, 19:07
Wow, bili. If someone that informed about the market is still running into this much trouble getting out, how are any of the clueless sellers finding buyers?

Nice article in the Sunday Charlotte Observer about foreclosures in the upper price levels. I also heard on the radio on the way home that March prices in Charlotte metro were down 3.5% with sales off 25%. That along with the Wachovia earnings announcement today probably made for a fun day in the investment bank offices in town.
 
311biliruben
ID: 33258140
Mon, Apr 14, 2008, 19:24
I'm not really having trouble selling. I haven't put in the market yet. Next week.

I just want to avoid chasing the market down, yet still getting what the house is worth at this particular moment. Hard to price, because of the diversity of houses and neighborhoods. If I were in a cookie-cutter housing tract it would be easier. Our house really has no legit comps.

I figure I missed the top (I knew we were there last summer, but real life gets in the way!), but even after declining 15%, I think this market has a good 10-20% more to fall.

Of course the official statistics don't report things as quite this dire, but C-S has too much of a lag in reporting to be useful in this fast changing market, and the median gets skewed when you change the mix of closed homes, which I think is happening.

Seattle-proper is still relatively strong (I'm in the first suburb north), but it's an ever-tightening circle, and it will hit the city soon. Because I want to buy in-city, at least I hope so.
 
312nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Tue, Apr 15, 2008, 03:48

Bili reading your posts about trying to sell now made me recall this.

I'm only doing this because you won the last round of 1326 or 1526

nerveclinic Sat, May 21, 2005, 03:25

Posted To Bili by Nerve

If you really believe there's a serious chance that after 6-7 years when you sell you will only break even then financially it would have been better to have rented a similar house.

It's likely that after all the expense and taxes associated with an owned house, your payments would be at decent amount less then buying (Assuming very little down.)

You could have invested the excess money as well as the down payment in Federally protected bonds (very short term)and added to each periodically.

When the 20-30% drop happened, you could take the now larger down payment which you have been making interest on and buy the house.

So let's say it's a $300,000 house and you buy a couple years later for (30% less) $210,000.

Now you've made $90,000 by waiting, along with the excess rent you've stock piled and the interest on it.

Anyone who believed this was going to happen would be making made a decision that likely cost them well over $100,000, depending on the value of the home maybe quite a bit more.


***********************************

I do think at this point getting out of the burbs into Seattle proper is a brilliant strategy. That property will always be extremely valuable. The only risk is that it may be the one part of town where housing prices don't drop.

What is the burb, area in Seattle you live in now?

 
313biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Tue, Apr 15, 2008, 05:10
Shoreline.

On paper we'll be doubling our money (50K down, 50K appreciation), knock on wood. Last summer it would have likely been triple.

Taking into account the maintenance costs, inflation, and lost opportunity costs with that money however, we are probably breaking even or taking a bit of a loss. It was certainly worth it. We enjoyed the house.

An investor's taking a look at it in the morning. He wants to rent it out. Maybe we'll rent from him for a few years as the market collapses! That would be a kick. Something tells me I couldn't convince my wife of the humor however.
 
314Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Fri, May 02, 2008, 15:47
So, Bili, what's the word on your house?

According to this story, your neighborhood is has a small inventory, making it a seller's market.
"The urban locations are still quite strong," said Bob Melvey, whose research shows King County is a buyer's market, Seattle on the buyer's end of a balanced market and North Seattle on the seller's side. Stacey Brower, said she sees strong demand for affordable homes in the North End of Seattle, up to 100th Street. "If it's clean and livable under $400 (thousand), it moves pretty quick," she said.

I know you are north of 100th, but you are in a great, quiet location.
 
315biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, May 02, 2008, 16:22
I saw that. I don't agree. 6 months is an arbitrary number, and that's absolutely huge historically for Seattle. We are at record inventory and little is moving.

I put it on the market 2 weeks ago. Looking at the comps, I was very worried. Nothing was selling over the last 3 months in my segment, and 1st-time home-buyers were struggling to qualify for even the low-end, which is what my house is. There were a number of houses, some nicer and bigger than ours, that came on too high (last springs prices), and have proceeded to cut a number of times, so that they are now sitting, stale, with no buyers.

Put wood floors in, repainted the whole interior myself, and made the place sparkle. My goal was to get someone to fall in love in the first week and be done with it. No chasing the market down. Even so, I listed it low, but still 5% higher than my agent recommended for a quick sale.

A long story short (because I have a feverish boy on my lap trying to feed me his sock), multiple offers, a gooey letter, escalator clause pushing it over list, waived inspection, close in 2 weeks. Partying like its 2006. Yay!

Both bidders were older, looking to downsize into a pristine, smaller house with character. Both were having real trouble selling their own houses, but qualified without the sale, and didnt need a contingency. Bingo. None of the 1st-time buyers looking at it had qualified for a loan yet.

Were now sitting in my in-laws house that was vacant, rent free, watching the market slide. May toss in a low-ball or two this summer/fall/winter, then get serious in the spring.

My guess is that King outside the city is down 10-15% from the peak last June, and in-city is only down 5-10% so far. Id like to find a nice place in-city 20% off peak. The places Im looking at that meet all our requirements are currently about 10-20% over our budget, and just sitting. A couple on contingency, but nothing's really selling that would work for us. Id love to watch longer, since this is the house we will be living in for decades, probably, but the in-laws arent game and the lending situation is deteriorating rapidly anyway.
 
316Perm Dude
ID: 3943117
Fri, May 02, 2008, 16:29
Wow, great to hear bili.
 
317biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, May 02, 2008, 16:40
Thanks, PD.

The other thing is the flipper/reno next door has stopped talking to me.

I think he expected me to price it high, and then he would undercut with his granite, stainless, new sod and cedar peak (Dunno if you have the same flipper MO where you are).

Instead, I undercut him, with one less bedroom, but 300 more sq ft and an actual driveway. Real nice guy, and hope he does well, because he's worked really hard, often staying past midnight every night, but ya gotta do what you gotta do.

Flips only work in an appreciating market, and the sooner they realize that, the better off folks looking for an affordable home will be.
 
318The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Fri, May 02, 2008, 16:42
Nicely done bili. Glad to see you make it out in one piece. Enjoy your sock.
 
319biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, May 02, 2008, 16:49
Thanks Beezer. Mmm... tastes like chicken.
 
320Seattle Zen
ID: 29241823
Sat, May 03, 2008, 10:54
multiple offers, a gooey letter, escalator clause pushing it over list,waived inspection, close in 2 weeks.

Let me congratulate you, Bili. I'm very glad that you and your family sold your house so quickly.

Now that I've said that, I think a little teasing is in order.

I was very worried.

No kidding! Yeah, after reading your posts for the past three years, it is safe to call you Chicken Little. You have been virtually waiving both arms over your head screaming about the housing market as you run down the street.

Well, now you have just one arm over your head as the other hand is stuffing thousands of dollars into your pocket! Mr. Gloom-and-Doom just made a handsome profit.

Were now sitting in my in-laws house that was vacant, rent free, watching the market slide. May toss in a low-ball or two this summer/fall/winter, then get serious in the spring.

So, you are staying at the in-law's house for up to a year? Really? That's great. Sounds like you planned this quite well.

So when is the huge blow-out party at the in-law's?
 
321biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Sat, May 03, 2008, 11:12
Actually, we'll probably have a, um, 1st birthday party in a month or so (the boy's actually almost 15 months, but we've been homeless since he turned 1).

Well, can you really call me chicken little if the sky is, actually, falling? ;)

We just we able to scoot into the cave before it hit. We probably could have made an additional 10% if we'd sold a year earlier, and we certainly make a net profit, though we didn't expect to either. Realtors, taxes and fees took 50% of our profit, inflation took the other 50%, and the roof and floor were on us, not on the house.
 
322biliruben
ID: 33258140
Sat, May 03, 2008, 12:30
Here's a nice graph which demonstrates how fast the sky is falling:



Only Miami is falling faster. As I've mentioned in the past, Seattle always seems to be about a year behind, but we are catching up fast.

My predictions, even 3 years ago, seem to be hitting pretty close to the mark. The timing isn't perfect, but my estimate of 20-40% declines, depending on market segment, still seems pretty realistic.

It is now, after SD has seen 25% declines, cheaper to live in San Diego than in Seattle. Where would you rather live?
 
323biliruben
ID: 33258140
Tue, May 06, 2008, 19:38
Thomas Palley delineates many ideas on housing tax policy that I've kicked around here in the past:

Tax Policy and the House Price Bubble

The bursting of the recent house price bubble has focused attention on the failures of monetary and regulatory policy. However, tax policy also likely played a role by providing tax subsidies that contribute to a cult of home ownership. This policy is flawed. However, it is politically difficult to change because households see the benefits of tax subsidies and higher house prices but do not recognize the accompanying costs. By showing the downside of high prices, the housing bust provides an opportunity to escape this political trap.

Current tax law exempts capital gains on private homes up to $500,000 and treats mortgage interest as a deduction. Both measures are intended to help middle-class families, yet the reality is they distort the economy, are costly, and likely do little to make working families better off. That speaks for changing housings tax treatment.

The mortgage interest deduction is extremely expensive, costing the Treasury approximately eighty billion dollars in 2007. Moreover, it is highly regressive because high-income taxpayers get to deduct their interest payments at top marginal tax rates, whereas others deduct at lower tax rates. That means high-income taxpayers get a higher subsidy rate, and their subsidy is further increased because they also tend to have larger mortgages. Meanwhile, many poor workers get no housing assistance because they rent and rental expenses are non-deductible.


Read the whole thing, it's not long and he has some interested ideas about changes to tax policy.

I hadn't heard the theory that housing costs force 2 income families, and I'm not sure it's really true.

The inter-generational issues are certainly true and very important.

Not exactly how I would fix it, but a good start.
 
324biliruben
ID: 33258140
Tue, Jun 03, 2008, 18:06
Jeezus. Check out Merced:


Nearly 400K median price at the peak. Now 172K. Everyone who bought after 2003 is probably underwater.

That's actually good for many locals, said Loren Gonella, a Merced real estate broker. At the height of the boom, Gonella estimated, only 11% of Merced residents could afford to buy a home.

"Now it's 60% to 65%," he said. "That's the reason we've put over 300 homes in escrow this year."


Exactly. If you bought in 2005, this sucks, but for everyone else, and for the town in the long term, falling prices are a good thing. People can afford homes again without selling their first-born. Housing is the only thing people complain about the price declining, and they shouldn't.
 
325Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Tue, Jun 03, 2008, 18:54
Yeah, 60 Minutes did its piece in May on Stockton, just to the north. There are 6,000 homes in Stockton either in default or foreclosure. I went to high school just north of these two places and I knew the home prices from a few years ago were a bad, bad joke. These are not nice places, there are not nearly enough jobs in the area, few of which pay the money to afford $400k houses.

This has happened before, maybe not this huge of a swing, but back in the early 80's home prices didn't crash, but were very stagnant for the rest of the decade.
 
326Building 7
ID: 174591519
Sun, Jun 08, 2008, 02:11
Housing is the only thing people complain about the price declining, and they shouldn't.

Stocks, bonds, real estate, investments, baseball cards, Beanie Babies, etc. These are all things that people complain about when the price declines. Housing is not the only thing that people complain about.

If it's the price of your own house going down the toilet, then you shouldn't complain?





 
327nerveclinic
ID: 5047110
Sun, Jun 08, 2008, 04:34

B7 If it's the price of your own house going down the toilet, then you shouldn't complain?

That's not what he said. He said... " If you bought in 2005, this sucks, but for everyone else, and for the town in the long term, falling prices are a good thing. People can afford homes again without selling their first-born. "

So if it's your house feel free to complain. For the ability for the average American to be able to afford a home...that is a good thing. The prices had no basis in reality.



 
328The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 18:45
Well, Case-Shiller is finally showing Charlotte declining year over year, along with all 19 other cities in the 20 city index. Oddly enough, nothing in the paper today about that. Maybe they are just running behind.

Also, I'm glad to have been proven wrong and that rates were not lowered further. I thought they'd be below 1% by now as recently as mid-April. No point to cutting further when it's not going to help housing.
 
329biliruben
ID: 52561217
Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 18:48
Agreed. Congrats on finally joining the party, Beezer!

I just found this graphic funny:
 
330 Perm Dude
ID: 42540259
Wed, Jun 25, 2008, 22:30
Beezer, are you in Charlotte? I'm driving down there Friday & Saturday AM. Would you drop me an email if you get a sec?
 
331biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 00:09
Fannie and Freddie, with their 5 Trillion in assets, need a bailout. Yikes.

I expected this a year or two from now. This was quick, and very scary, particularly for their shareholders, who are hung out to dry.

Personally, I'm quite concerned about the cost of my next mortgage loan. If this is just the first step, and I think it is, buying a house is going to get increasingly expensive. This is going to mean the price of houses will either plummet further, or sales will disappear.

15 billion won't do diddly if this really gains momentum and the GSEs are forced to start raising serious cash. The Fed is opening their window, but their reserves already been foolishly allowed to be sucked half dry by the investment banks.

NYTimes.

Taxpayers are now the lenders of last resort. Are the taxpayers solvent?
 
332biliruben
ID: 52561217
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 14:43
Recession-Plagued Nation Demands New Bubble To Invest In

WASHINGTON—A panel of top business leaders testified before Congress about the worsening recession Monday, demanding the government provide Americans with a new irresponsible and largely illusory economic bubble in which to invest.

"What America needs right now is not more talk and long-term strategy, but a concrete way to create more imaginary wealth in the very immediate future," said Thomas Jenkins, CFO of the Boston-area Jenkins Financial Group, a bubble-based investment firm. "We are in a crisis, and that crisis demands an unviable short-term solution."

The current economic woes, brought on by the collapse of the so-called "housing bubble," are considered the worst to hit investors since the equally untenable dot-com bubble burst in 2001. According to investment experts, now that the option of making millions of dollars in a short time with imaginary profits from bad real-estate deals has disappeared, the need for another spontaneous make-believe source of wealth has never been more urgent.

"Perhaps the new bubble could have something to do with watching movies on cell phones," said investment banker Greg Carlisle of the New York firm Carlisle, Shaloe & Graves. "Or, say, medicine, or shipping. Or clouds...




 
333boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 14:48
The ironic thing about that statement is kind of true, the housing bubble was in part a result of .com bubble as people looked for new places to put there money. i mean it is kind of like the old dead kennedy's song about how as sone as one war is over the government just starts looking for the next one.
 
334biliruben
ID: 52561217
Mon, Jul 14, 2008, 14:51
That's why it's funny!

Ha.

Ha.
 
335nerveclinic
ID: 5047110
Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 16:24


Nothing wrong with investing in bubbles as long as you know it's a bubble and can get out before it pops.

 
336Perm Dude
ID: 12614299
Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 17:04
Home prices drop by a record 15.8% in May

wow.
 
337biliruben
ID: 52561217
Tue, Jul 29, 2008, 17:34
That's year-over year, May 2008 vs May 2007, in case folks thought it was a 1 month drop.

Seattle's finally startin' to get rolling, down 6.3%, YOY.

June MLS numbers saw a bit of an upturn (or slower decline), but the Realtors are saying July sales and prices are just falling off a cliff. I bloody hope so. Prices aren't falling fast enough for me, as our sanctuary is only for a limited time and interest rates are beginning to climb and take away the monthly savings we are seeing from the price drops.
 
338biliruben
ID: 52561217
Mon, Aug 04, 2008, 20:25
 
339Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 11:03
My wife just finalized a house transaction yesterday so it hasn't conpletely ground to a halt. Of course that was a very creative deal that would not have happened with a traditional broker. Assignment of lease w/option to own. A couple who originally could not qualify to buy [and were living there rent-to-own for two years] are now sole mortgage holders and my wife is no longer in the middle. The former owner who could not find a buyer originally, is now unencumbered and free to buy the new house he has his eye on. Win/win/win.
 
340Boxman
ID: 337352111
Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 12:05
We've been having some serious discussions lately about either moving into or buying a house as the result of a short sale and renting it out. Every other week there's a new house for sale or two in my neighborhood. I just view being a landlord as one massive headache.

What if I got financing to buy a neighbors house on a short sale and rented it back to them for a profit? That might work. Nah. Fvck it.
 
341biliruben
ID: 38751812
Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 12:31
It's notoriously difficult to get the bank on board in a timely way in a short sale situation.

If you have the cash, and all the time in the world and right contacts, you can probably get it done, but most banks are still unrealistically resistant to short sales.
 
342biliruben
ID: 38751812
Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 12:31
Baldwin - are you a hard-money lender?
 
343Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Thu, Aug 21, 2008, 14:31
Nope. My wife just puts together deals and makes contracts. She hasn't done anything new since the bubble burst but we have one more in the pipeline. The stress is too much for her tho. Illinois is one of the tuffer states to do 'creative reality'. We have clearly the best real estate lawyer in the county but she is operating outside anything he has entountered usually. Realtors listen to her deals and go 'wow, I didn't know you could do that...hmmm'.

She was at one of these creative seminars and the guy conducting it asked for a show of hands for anyone who had ever put together one of these deals and she was the only one with her hand up! I'm all kinds of proud of her but she's burned out. Just when she's done the hardest part and the next deals would be easier.

Being in a small market [and where prices aren't inflated to the sky] means the profit per deal is too low. It means the banks and lawyers and mortgage brokers are thrown for a loop by everything she does. Being wildly undercapitolized means there's no room for error and there are unexpected problems continually that you can't solve by throwing big money at.

Talking her back into it after the market returns to normal may be impossible.
 
344biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Sat, Sep 06, 2008, 11:42
Fannie and Freddie Done.

Going into conservatorship. Not sure what that means for borrowers, but taxpayers are due for a huge, on-going bill.
 
345nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 5047110
Sun, Sep 07, 2008, 01:17


Fannie Freddie...

The ones really taking the hit will be the owners of their common stock.

Now probably worthless

 
346Building 7
ID: 174591519
Sun, Sep 07, 2008, 08:19
They've been bankrupt for years. Nice that they're finally admitting to it. When they have to hire 1000 accountants to figure out their books, and they are unable to put out an audited financial statement.....I have little sympathy for the shareholders. I read the government would probably bail out the preferred shareholders. Which is mostly banks to the tune of $30 Billion.
 
347biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Sun, Sep 07, 2008, 10:55
I couldn't care less about any moron investors who still owned stock.
 
348nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 5047110
Sun, Sep 07, 2008, 16:15

I couldn't care less about any moron investors who still owned stock.

I mean really, what could they be thinking?

 
349Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Tue, Sep 16, 2008, 13:37


Gather up some fertile Republican women, time for a financial Noah's Arc...
 
350boikin
ID: 532592112
Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 10:49
the delayed effects of the Clinton administration?
 
351Perm Dude
ID: 19929108
Fri, Oct 10, 2008, 13:08
Houses are not investment vehicles, treating them as such is pretty foolish and potentially destructive. And the economy as a whole is far less flexible when too many workers are tied down in one spot with a home. And when fringe exurbs are developed to allow for more lower-income families to own, it leads to enormous inefficiencies and a massive amount of energy wasted on extreme commuting.

Rob Horning with a nice post.
 
352Perm Dude
ID: 219572916
Thu, Oct 30, 2008, 11:51
Media Matters takes up the question of falsehoods surrounding affordable housing initiatives and the financial crisis
 
353Perm Dude
ID: 3511322217
Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 18:54
Thought I might as well post this screen grab here, for bili's enjoyment:



From The 10 Worst Predictions for 2008.
 
354Boxman
ID: 571114225
Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 19:31
He was referring to deposits held at Bear; not the stock.
 
355Perm Dude
ID: 2611202218
Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 19:34
He was worried about liquidity should Bear Stearns fail. Cramer, in his low-key, reassuring way, was telling "Peter" to keep his money in BS since there was no reason to fear that BS was in any trouble.

Cramer was wrong.
 
356Boxman
ID: 571114225
Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 20:22
Did you watch the episode?

I actually saw that one. I watch that show regularly. Cramer has repeatedly stated that he was referring to the security of the deposits in someone's Bear Stearns account.

When the guy was talking about "get my money out of there", it was a concern over deposit security. At the time that show aired, Cramer was sounding the alarm about financial stocks so there's no way he'd recommend Bear Stearns and anyone who watches the show would know that.
 
357Perm Dude
ID: 2611202218
Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 20:31
I did watch it (and I think it might be posted somewhere here on RotoGuru as well). The guy was worried about not being able to get his money out of his BS account.

But I don't know how much more wrong Cramer can be than to shout: "Bear Stearns is fine!" and then "Bear Stearns is not in trouble!" Those are simply untrue statements.

Now, whether this affects liquidity or not is a good question. But Cramer was using statements which turned out to be massively untrue just a few days later to re-assure his writer.

In fact, in Cramer's clarification, he admitted to being wrong on exactly the point being made. And it bears noting that while it might have been clear which type of account Cramer was talking about to those of us who were watching, the fact that Cramer was not talking (er, yelling) about BS stock on his stock-picking show left his open to more criticism than he might have otherwise gotten.
 
358Boxman
ID: 571114225
Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 20:49
the fact that Cramer was not talking (er, yelling) about BS stock on his stock-picking show left his open to more criticism than he might have otherwise gotten.

That doesn't have anything to do with anything.

And it bears noting that while it might have been clear which type of account Cramer was talking about to those of us who were watching

OK. Good. You admit Cramer's point. Thanks.

 
359Perm Dude
ID: 2611202218
Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 21:29
I admit the point, sure. I also admit that he tried to make the point with two wildly inaccurate "facts."

People can be right for the wrong reasons. Or technically correct but use bad facts to back themsleves up. The web site I linked in #353 was about predictions that were off by magnitudes. "Bear Stearns is not in trouble!" certainly qualifies.
 
360boikin
ID: 532592112
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 10:31
I was looking at the home prices by metro area from MSN and I am trying to figure out where the sky is falling at. Out side of Michigan area I can not find a metro area that has not seen prices rise by less than 7% in the past five years. While that would not be what you would call a great investment, it has gone up in value. And just kind of doing the numbers in my head it looks like on average the prices of houses have gone up about 20% in the past 5 years, which is not bad at all.

I wonder if i can get a bailout for investing in the stock market, I thought it would always go up in value?
 
361Perm Dude
ID: 412259
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 11:02
If you go back far enough I'm sure things will even out. But as the article said, only 6 states had home values go up over the last year. And 20% over five years is about the amount of inflation over that time--in other words, even if you believe that things went up 20% you are still treading water.

The clearer picture is to look at the last year. And even then the chart in that article doesn't reflect the jumbo loans, which biases the chart a little bit in the larger metropolitan areas.

 
362boikin
ID: 532592112
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 11:55
20% is not great but it is not disaster, especially not the end of the world kind. And if you consider all the new houses and condos being built in that time frame 20% seems pretty good to me. The area i am most familiar with is up about 20% and has probably double the number of new homes, while the population has on increased by about half that.

I mean the stock market in comparison is at 1998 levels, while not directly comparable it does but things in perspective.
 
363biliruben
ID: 461142511
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 12:23
As an individual, if you bought 5 years ago, or even beyond that, chances are you are fine. Unless you refi'd. I bought 5 years ago and sold last spring, and walked away with a fat check. When taking into account realtor fees maintenance and inflation we probably broke even. That, during the greatest 4 year run-up in Seattle RE history. RE is not a particularly good investement

The main problems on a personal level are:

1) If you bought in within the last 4-5 years, you have a good chance of being under water on your mortgage. Zillow has some nice graphs to illustrate that point:

More than 50% of buyers who bought in this decade are underwater in Detroit:
 
364biliruben
ID: 461142511
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 12:31
San Diego is almost as bad, as are most cities in California, Arizona and Florida:
 
365biliruben
ID: 461142511
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 12:34
2) If you are trying to sell your house now, it is very hard to do. Prices are falling, and there is no end in sight. Buyers (except for idiots like me, who are closing on Friday the 13th) are very scared, and want a screaming bargain if they are going to take the massive risk and buy right now. So you are likely going to take a loss if you sell right now:
 
366boikin
ID: 532592112
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 13:15
As an individual, if you bought 5 years ago, or even beyond that, chances are you are fine. I guess the question i have is why are people not living in a house more than five years? Is it bad luck that they are moving or were they planning this along?
 
367Perm Dude
ID: 412259
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 13:34
With job losses all over, I don't believe planning has a lot to do with this anymore. Also (particularly in the Midwest and Northeast), the huge increase in fuel oil over the last 5 years is something no one can plan for. Here in PA, home heating oil has gone up around 300% over the last 5 years. This makes the cost of owning a home go up-a lot.
 
368biliruben
ID: 461142511
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 13:54
It's a bit of both, I'm sure, boikin. It was easier than ever this decade to get into a loan with little or no money down, so you didn't have to save for a huge down-payment. This got a lot of first-time homebuyers into the market.

I'm sure there was plenty of move-up buyers and plenty of people relocating for a job or retirement as well. Everyone's situation is different, but the lending environment caused a huge spike in transactions of all kinds. Most of the people who were unlucky to make a transaction in the last 4 years are in really bad shape right now.

As an aside, the rise in homeownership we saw during the Bush years is now completely gone. A lower percentage of people own there homes now than did in 2000.

This has been a complete disaster.
 
369boikin
ID: 532592112
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 14:00
Makes me glad i am renting, interestingly they raised my rent this year even though i know that people i rent from have houses all around my place that have been unrented for the past year.
 
370biliruben
ID: 461142511
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 14:05
Negotiate. Rents are falling all over.

" I really like the place, but one down the street is $200 bucks a month cheaper. Maybe you could skip the increase or I may have to get off my duff and move..."
 
371nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 05047110
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 16:26

Bili heard Case from Case Schiller on Bloomberg yesterday and he was saying they were "taken back" by how badly Seattle house prices fell last month (compared to the rest of the country) It was a significant difference.

 
372boikin
ID: 532592112
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 16:27
It is not worth the effort it is only $10, i just thought it was strange they were raising the rent, though i do live in cheapest house in area by far so moving is not really an option. I would negotiate but me and the landlords rental agents are always in "negotiation".
 
373biliruben
ID: 461142511
Wed, Feb 25, 2009, 17:07
Yeah, Nerve. Down something like 3 and half percent November to December. Huge, but not particularly surprising. November was the lowest number of closed sales on Record at just under 1000. December was even lower. January - down near 750.

Nobody is buying right now. Well, nobody but me.

That's got to start putting pressure on prices.

There is some movement below jumbo (where we are), and we actually have seen some competition for the good, well-priced houses in our range, but high-end is dead, and low-end is investors looking for bargains and REOs.
 
374Zapos
ID: 15241919
Mon, Mar 09, 2009, 21:56
First, let me say, I take blame for the following real estate deal. No one oput a gun to my head to sign the loa. But... now that the bade loan exists, I am deciding how to deal with the situation:

12/2006 purchased a aprtment conversion condo for $324105 (appraised out easily at this number).

Loan terms 80/20 piggy back where 80% is interest only only at 6/50% and has a 5-year balloon. 2o% is 8.375% second ARM which is amortized at 360 month, adjusts at 3 years and 5 year balloon.
Obviously, everybody though (me and the bank), id' re-fi about now and appraise out at $400k and lock ina 30 year fixed. WRONG.

So, a few things....

1. I didn't put any money down because they didn't ask for any and I could get more than 6-8% is the market, so why put it into real estate. This may turn out to be my nest deciion (see later comments)
2. Community is 150 unites "boutique" condos with 70 sold and a developer owns the other 75. Developer is BK and hasn't paid 6 months worth of HOA's and is being foreclosed on. Trustee sale to be 3/24/09.
3. My best guess was before foreclosure, my unit was worth only $250k, now it may only be worth $180k or so. I'm nearly 50% upside down.
4. I have (I'll generalize here0 a 700+ FICO, a 6-figure job and col easily refinance the mortgages with $50k down and a new 30 year fixed.

5. There are some construction issues that have popped up as in construction defect/ mold issues as this was a 1999 built apartment complex. Original bulder long since out of biz.

So... I'm glad I didn't pit 20% down originally vause my $65K would be "gone".

I can't figure out why on earth I wouldn't just stop paying the mortgage (moral reasons aside, I have none) and pocket the money and force a foreclosure. No way my lender will re-fi this loan with a principal balance of $323k on a $180K condo. I'd have to come put with nearly $200k to get it to current market 80% LTV.

Sure, I get a foreclosure on my credit, but so do 1/8 Americans. I can rent a decent place (pay upfront if I had to) and sit tight for 24 months and buy a reasonable place in 2011. I have a car loan 0% and all the credit cards I need, so I'm not worried about "needing" credit anytime soon.

Can anyone give me a financially sound reason to continue in this loan?


 
375biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Mar 09, 2009, 23:18
Nope. Purely financially, you won't qualify for the bailout, so walk away. Hire a lawyer to make sure the lender won't recourse, and if you have any assets, they might have a mind to come after them, if they can.

Where are you located? Fla? Cali? Ari?
 
376Zapos
ID: 15241919
Mon, Mar 09, 2009, 23:20
az is an anti-deficiency balance state.
 
377biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Mon, Mar 09, 2009, 23:21
Give it back to the desert.
 
378Zapos
ID: 15241919
Mon, Mar 09, 2009, 23:30
Now, here's my idea that won't fly because it is non-conforming...
My lender who shall go unnamed but has initials of WF is not cooperative. I have talked to them 4x explaining the situation (keep in mind I am current as of right now). I proposed giving them a deed in lieu of foreclosure (better for us both me- credit wise, them cost wise). I even offered to lease the property back for 24 months at "market rates" with a deposit and 6-month in advance rental payment. thsi si god for su both because they get an income stream and a present tenat to help maintain the propoery. i get to live here an not pack up (which i will do at the drop of a hat).

Either way, they are going to own the property, it';s just under what terms. In bad shape or with a chance to mitigate their damages.

Rather than make a decision hood for both of us, they are encouraging me to be a difficult foreclosure, living here for free as long as I can.
 
379Baldwin
ID: 10258919
Mon, Mar 09, 2009, 23:48
There are some amazing ideas floating around about [forced] rewriting mortgages so you might want to see how these things shake out first.

I'm not saying I approve of these ideas but they may happen.
 
380biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 00:02
He's making six figures, Baldwin. No one's going to consider him distressed, least of all me.

Wells won't listen because they shouldn't. You are making payments, and you CAN make payments. They should rightly tell you to suck it up. You made a bad bet and lost. Pay up. The only way you come out ahead is to call their bluff.

Personally, I find someone making 6-figures and welshing on their bet disgusting. But you didn't ask me what you thought of your morals.

There are a lot of people really hurting out there. 12 million unemployed and another 9 million under-employed. And you trying to game it to your advantage.

You bet and you lost. Pay your mortgage, enjoy your apt., and be happy you have your job.
 
381Zapos
ID: 15241919
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 00:06
Sure, i lost, but it's still a better deal for the bank to negotiate. They can be stubborn too... and lose even more money. It's as if you loaned $500 to your brother-in-law and he tells you can have $100 or nothing and you choose nothing cause you want to prove a point. It's the property value driving the decision to walk away.
 
382biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 00:09
Miss a few payments and you'll get their attention. Right now, you are just a bag of hot air. while there are more real-deal bankruptcies than they can handle in front of you in line.

Of course, if you lost your job, they'd probably be more sympathetic. One can always hope.
 
383Zapos
ID: 15241919
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 00:13
I hope your course in life is well too. Thanks. I'd never hope for anything else. ;)
 
384biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 00:15
Sorry, Zapos. There are a lot of sympathetic figures out there, but I am having trouble framing you as one.

You signed a contract, right?

You have no hardship holding up your end of the contract, right?
 
385biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 00:17
I am closing on house in 8 days, to give you my perspective.

I fully expect it to be worth at least 100K less than I paid for it in 2-3 years. And I'm fine with that. If I can pay the mortgage, I will.
 
386Perm Dude
ID: 31245917
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 00:30
I can't see the mortgage holder even returning your calls if you are current.
 
387Zapos
ID: 15241919
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 00:54
You have no hardship holding up your end of the contract, right?

Wrong. the balloons due will be impossible for me to refinance even if i pour ever last cent in. That's my point. It's now or later. What do I do with a $325K loan call with a $200k propery/ They want 80/20 LTV, so I'd need to pay out. $165k in cash. I don't have that kind of cash.

PermeDude -- I know. But, wouldn't banks be able to make better decision by returning calls than conforming to old models the way thinks used to work? Its a different era.

And, there are 10,000's of thousands of loans like mine. This mortgage crisis isn't over until after 2012. I know I'm not a sympathetic figure, but I'm a real figure with a real loan affecting the real economy. Deal with it or ignore it, but 99% of us will walk or walk at balloon time.
 
388Perm Dude
ID: 31245917
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 01:13
And, there are 10,000's of thousands of loans like mine.

I think you are probably right. And if there weren't hundreds of thousands of loans in default right now you would probably be getting some attention. But banks need to triage, and bleeding loans are going to get the attention.

If you are going to lose the place, you might as well stop making payments right now. You'll need the money, and it'll at least get their attention.
 
389nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 05047110
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 04:03

Zapos you mentioned you have "credit cards" to fall back on. You do realize when you default on this loan they will be either canceled or have an interest rate through the roof likely for the next 7 years.

Just an aside

 
390biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 04:11
If your loan was bought up by Freddie or Fannie, you may be able to refi. You really need to find a really, really good mortgage broker. One that is licensed to write FHA loans. They may not even require an appraisal.

As an aside, FHA is being crippled as we speak with skyrocketing defaults because they are mandated to refi a lot of these crap neg-am and interest only loans.

If you can't refi, then maybe a short sale. If not either, than bankruptcy might be your best choice, and hope the cram down legislation gets passed and you end up in front of a sympathetic judge.
 
391 Taxman
ID: 3985420
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 12:33
Z...25 yeras ago I then was you now. Listen to the advice here. This is not about morality, only reality. The only way out of this hole is to let the clock run on creditors time/ability to impact your life. Start the clock today.

You have the dough to go hire a top notch local Debtor Attny (different than a BR attny). These guys are the "guardians of the gate" regarding lenders, land lords, loan sharks etc. The top door Debtor Attny's are known by lenders and their attnys ("Oh sh1t, he has hired_________to represent him"). If a deal is to be cut, they can do it.

Next get a top drawer BR attny on hand to take over when/if the Debtor Attny runs out of bullets (doesn't need to be local). In general, avoid attorneys who advertise as there is a reason they advertise, such as they are not competent thus they never get referals from good attnys or satisfied clients. Write me if you are having trouble finding such and I'll give you some ideas on how to find one.

BTW, posts 388, 389 and 390 are dead on.
 
392Baldwin
ID: 10258919
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 14:47
Taxman

I love the feel you have for this.

Don't you think it a strong possibility that the government will find a way to short circuit these looming balloon deadlines to avoid saddling the banking system with an avoidable avalanche of bad paper?

If so then Zapos might miss his chance at a work-around by bailing now.

What I find immoral is the looming threat of the government to arbitrarily and forcibly tear up written contracts. But if it happens Zapos might as well avail himself of it.

 
393Taxman
ID: 3985420
Tue, Mar 10, 2009, 20:17
Yeah Baldy. Thank you for noticing. But the "feel" is not warm and fuzzy and examples: "Experience is the Best Teacher" and "If it doesn't kill you, it'll make you stronger."

I have no optimism that the government is going to tear up these contracts for money on a wholesale basis. What if Z waits, but nothing is done by the Feds (I share that hope..talk about a weird marraige). Then Z has wasted that amount of time to get himself out of this hole. The key is that Z is making good money, but pouring is down a hole. Time to cut your losses is while you are generating big bucks.

If the attnys cannot wash the debt, then Z should do as you say and "keep on keeping on" until something definitive by the feds occurs.
 
394Boxman
ID: 3821468
Wed, Mar 11, 2009, 10:53
Here's what I'm reading into this whole thing.

Zapos: Hi, I'm a home owner and I lost my ass. I thought home prices were magical fairy investments that increased in perpetuity. How can I screw someone over so I don't live in a refrigerator box? What would be the best way for me to screw my bank so that I can contribute to the worsening of the economy on a micro-economic level?

Its people like this that make me pray they abandon the place, rent for a few months, and then home prices double before they can buy a home.
 
395Baldwin
ID: 10258919
Thu, Mar 12, 2009, 06:49
New bumper sticker:

Honk If You Will Pay My Mortgage
 
396Baldwin
ID: 10258919
Thu, Mar 12, 2009, 07:06
Oooo that's cold, Boxman, lol!

Every RE agent and investment advisor in the world [practically] would have told him that.

Zapos didn't artificially inflate the bubble. He didn't deliberately crash the system. He isn't asking anyone to bail him out on a string of investment only flipping deals.

I'll grant you that the Bible does teach that those who 'will reside in God's holy mountain' among other things, "He has sworn to what is bad [for himself], and yet he does not alter"...PS 15:1-5.

And I will grant you that this does not appear to be a bankruptcy level catastrphe for him.

My enthusiasm for holding Zapos feet to the fire however is tempered by the fact that he was set up to fail by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd.

In this situation I am tempted to say that demanding Zaphos pay the piper is akin to demanding he pay the conman, "he promised after all".

- If Bernie Madoff held your IOU? I'm not saying I personally would walk away, but 99 out of 100 would.
 
397Baldwin
ID: 10258919
Thu, Mar 12, 2009, 07:18
Let us not forget that Barney Frank and Chris Dodd intend to hold Zaphos upside down and shake him so hard his fillings fall out, in order to pay for socialized housing. Maybe Zaphos deserves a taste of his own money.
 
398biliruben
Leader
ID: 589301110
Thu, Mar 12, 2009, 08:51
Your brain is an interesting place where you've some how cast Frank and Dodd as major villians in this affair.

I see them of minor deputies maybe choosing a poor choice of routes chasing the last remaining horse left after a massive cast of various unscrupulous characters opened the barn door, cooked 99 of the 100 horses on a spit while doing keg-stands, and then burned the barn down in the wee hours of the morning.

 
399boldwin
ID: 481371112
Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 18:02
A Realtor friend of my wife says that last fall 20 million ARMs came due. Next fall 40 million come due. Paste that picture together with the news today that 50% of mortgages are underwater.

Don't plan assuming we've seen the worst of it, and don't forget how valuable Obama's chief of staff Rahm 'don't waste a good crisis' Emanuel, finds turmoil.
 
400Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 18:05
I believe ARMs reset at least every year. I'm not sure what your friend means by "come due" but perhaps she means that the rates will adjust?
 
401biliruben
ID: 16105237
Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 18:18
Recasting is the issue. We are all subprime now.



Calculated Risk
 
402biliruben
ID: 16105237
Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 18:34
Banks are starting to figure out that short-sales make a lot of sense for them, and are cutting deals to get them done.

I'm helping my sister through one right now (she's on the buy side), and the banks are so far quite accommodating, even though they are eating 20% of the loan. Foreclosures are expensive, and then they are often just left with a trashed house no one wants.
 
403Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Fri, Sep 24, 2010, 10:51
Bank of America forecloses upon man's house. But he has no mortgage!

I know this speaks more to a sloppy and overwhelmed court system than anything else. But surely if we can react to Iran getting plutonium by pumping a billion more dollars into the Pentagon then we can react to the housing crisis by pumping more money into a court system before they make things worse.
 
404Boldwin
ID: 448192421
Fri, Sep 24, 2010, 22:20
We are all subprime now

Words that will reverberate and gather meaning. A post I will not forget.
 
405Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 13:46
MERS/MBS/Foreclosure Goes RICO

From the market-ticker.org by Karl Denninger
 
406biliruben
ID: 358252515
Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 14:06
Good stuff. So far the lack of paper trail in foreclosure cases has been dispatched with a wave of a hand by lazy/corrupt judges, with a few exceptions.

It will be interesting to see what happens with this, as fancy attorney faces off against fancy attorney, instead of penniless homeowners.
 
407Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Mon, Oct 04, 2010, 15:15
It's a mess. Don't let them foreclose on you without getting a lawyer. Make them prove that they own the property. If they packaged it, sliced and diced it, and sold it to some saps in Europe.....they probably cannot prove ownership anymore.

More questionable actions by the mega banks. If you're too big to fail, you're too big to exist. This is anti-trust law 101. They still have not done anything about it.
 
408Boldwin
ID: 1293423
Tue, Oct 05, 2010, 00:21
From 'no doc' loans, to 'no doc' repos.

 
409Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 09:19
More on the motgage fraud from Jim Willie at kitco.com

 
410Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 09:49
I don't know if the RICO statute is appropriate for this or not, but it is probably worth noting that the statute has been overused by the government in many, many cases which are nothing to do with the mafia.
 
411Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 02:29
Shoddy paperwork slowing housing sales even further.

Better this temporary slowdown now than to continue the foreclosure farce, IMO.
 
412Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 21:54
Also, Obama pocket vetoes a bill which would have allowed for faster foreclosures.

Probably a good move, at this point, until things cool off.
 
413Boldwin
ID: 25923143
Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 15:13
Largest foreclosure monthly figure ever just reported.
 
414Boldwin
ID: 25923143
Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 15:17
And btw a moratorium just begs the law of unintended consequences to slap us across the face.

Half all RE sales are foreclosed property, so let's just kill half this anemic market.

Yeah, but we had to kill the village to save it.
 
415Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 15:45
The moratorium is in effect by the banks because many of them can't prove they own the properties they are selling.

You're going to town in another thread because a wife- and child-beater had his child taken away and this would be a violation of his rights. But having a bank take your house from you that you own outright is fine--we wouldn't want to slow down the market, would we?
 
416Seattle Zen
ID: 10732616
Thu, Oct 14, 2010, 17:56
You're going to town in another thread because a wife- and child-beater had his child taken away and this would be a violation of his rights. But having a bank take your house from you that you own outright is fine--we wouldn't want to slow down the market, would we?

LOL.

Look, over there, a Maoist!
 
417Boldwin
ID: 35959153
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 07:01


Yup
 
418Boldwin
ID: 35959153
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 07:11
Should be posted at a post office near you:

as of September 17, 2010
Afghanistan Czar Richard Holbrooke

Health Foods Czar Sam Kass

AIDS Czar Jeffrey Crowley

Intelligence Czar James R. Clapper (nominated)

Auto Task Force Czar Ron Bloom

Information Czar Vivek Kundra

Border Czar Alan Bersin

Iran Czar unfilled

California Water Czar David J. Hayes

Medicare Czar Donald M. Berwick

Car Czar Ed Montgomery

Middle East Peace Czar George Mitchell

Climate Czar Todd Stern

Mideast Policy Czar Dennis Ross

Consumer Czar Elizabeth Warren

Mortgage Czar unfilled

Copyright Czar Victoria A. Espinel

Pay Czar Patricia Geoghegan (acting)

Cyberspace Czar Howard Schmidt

Performance Czar Jeffrey Zients

Domestic Violence Czar Lynn Rosenthal

Regulatory Czar Cass Sunstein

Drug Czar Gil Kerlikowske

Science Czar John Holdren

Economic Czar Paul Volcker

Stimulus Accountability Czar Earl Devaney

Education Czar Kevin Jennings

Sudan Czar J. Scott Gration

Energy & Climate Change Czar Carol Browner

TARP Czar Herb Allison

Faith-Based Czar Joshua Dubois

Technology Czar Aneesh Chopra

FCC Diversity Czar Mark Lloyd

Terrorism Czar John Brennan

Great Lakes Czar Cameron Davis

Urban Affairs/Housing Czar Adolfo Carrion

Green Jobs Czar Van Jones (resigned)

War Czar Douglas Lute

Guantanamo Closure Czar Danny Fried

Weapons Czar Ashton Carter

Health Care Czar Nancy-Ann De Parle

Weapons of Mass Destruction Czar Gary Samore
 
419Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 08:57
That's a daunting list. Of course it's entirely meaningless unless accompanied by content showing that, in each case, these people have czar-like powers, which would allow them free reign to establish policy by proclamation alone.
 
420Boldwin
ID: 35959153
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 09:14
Well the one probably most relavent to this thread, Elizabeth Warren, has control of an unaccountable $400,000,000 annual budget, needs zero congressional approval for what she does and has nearly godlike powers across the board to restructure the financial landscape.

There is a loooong list of communists who pulled very hard for Obama to ignore the senate confirmation process and recess appoint her so there must be a reason they want this particular person there so badly.
 
421Boldwin
ID: 35959153
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 09:19
You could optimistically look at it as keeping corrupt politicians from lobbying her to help their friends.

Or you could take a deep breath when you see Bernie Sander's people nearly crawling out of the skin to get her installed and wonder "why her?".
 
422Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 09:28
Well, that's a dodge. According to the Judicial Watch link, These "czars" have tremendous power to regulate and control enormous parts of the American economy and government.

So start at the top with Holbrooke. What tremendous powers does he have in relation to his job as Afghanistan czar? If you were going to target Elizabeth Warren, then you could have made a post about her, but you listed about 40 names. Even with Warren, you haven't made any case to support your claim that she has control of an unaccountable $400,000,000 annual budget and nearly godlike powers across the board to restructure the financial landscape. Please explain what constitutes "godlike powers."

 
423Boldwin
ID: 35959153
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 09:31
Were you going to give me a detailed schedule for my workday as well, boss?
 
424Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 09:37
Then we both agree that the word czar is misapplied. As for Warren, though the unacountable and godlike claims are disingenuous, I think the creation of a new federal bureacracy is the real problem. Certainly these issues can be handled by an existing agency at a fraction of the cost.
 
425Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 10:44
Are we on a czar watch now? These people are unpaid, issue-specific advisers to the President, who help manage projects already allocated by Congress.

Apparently these people are bad now (they weren't bad for Bush I, Bush II, or Reagan). Apparently the wacky right don't want to give the President someone to manage and advise him on government programs in an issue-specific way.
 
426Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 10:53
Were you going to give me a detailed schedule for my workday as well, boss?

You're suggesting that Richard Holbrooke is someone who should be viewed as a criminal(picture should be posted in a post office).

You're claiming he has tremendous power to act with impunity, and supreme authority.

He's the first name on your czar list!

Yet you act like providing any type of support for your claim is some type of outrageous infringement on your time. I fail to see the basis for your annoyance.
 
427The Left Behind
ID: 66232012
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 12:34
Apparently these people are bad now (they weren't bad for Bush I, Bush II, or Reagan). Apparently the wacky right don't want to give the President someone to manage and advise him on government programs in an issue-specific way.

They are unelected waste. Fire them all or have them elected.
 
428DWetzel
ID: 278201415
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 12:44
At precisely what level do we stop electing people? I'm just idly curious, because as long as we're not following the law I want to know if I should demand that the person at the DMV who screwed up the title work on a car be elected as well. (I foresee a raging primary battle.)
 
429Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 12:51
They are unpaid presidential advisers. "Fire them" from what, exactly?

The President should be able to obtain advise from anyone he or she wants. And, if possible, the advisers should be publicly known. Apparently the Right is now against both these points.
 
430The Left Behind
ID: 66232012
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 13:03
These people are in charge of serious initiatives in the country Perm Dude and they are not elected. Why do we even need them? Doesn't the President have enough advisors in the form of his cabinet and all the other people in the West Wing of the White House? Is Obama really that indecisive as a leader that he needs all those people? Aren't there congressional committees already in existence on the topic these unelected czars are supposed to handle?
 
431Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Fri, Oct 15, 2010, 13:50
So the Congress should take over the job of the Executive Branch, is that your proposal?

You keep harping on these people as "unelected." The Executive branch consists of over 3 million people. How many would you have the Congress hold the oversight of?
 
432boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Oct 18, 2010, 11:04
The Executive branch consists of over 3 million people.

is just me or does anyone else something wrong with this? That is 1% of the population.
 
433Razor
ID: 57854118
Mon, Oct 18, 2010, 11:22
About half of that number is military.
 
434Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Mon, Oct 18, 2010, 11:27
Yes, it is.

The Executive Branch includes all of the military, plus all those who work for the cabinet departments: agriculture, education, commerce, transportation, state, treasury, labor, homeland security, etc.

Almost 2 million people alone are in various branches of the military.
 
435Tree, not at home
ID: 18342816
Mon, Oct 18, 2010, 11:31
They are unelected waste. Fire them all or have them elected.

should we do the same with the Supreme Court Justices? THAT will go over well in keeping consistency.

These people are in charge of serious initiatives in the country Perm Dude and they are not elected. Why do we even need them?

is this a real question? why do we even need them? the president shouldn't have policy advisors?
 
436Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Mon, Oct 18, 2010, 11:34
Why do we even need them?

Because the government is freaking complicated. Czars help direct policy across department and cabinet level personnel, for instance, and help direct resources wherever needed.

And, again, the President should be able to get advice from whoever he wants to.
 
437boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Oct 18, 2010, 17:04
The Executive Branch includes all of the military

ok that number seems reasonable, now.
 
438Boldwin
ID: 16253251
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 04:23
Was gonna put this in the WTF thread.

Housing market: 13% of all U.S. homes are vacant.

Some of that is second homes, but this still is a lotta downward pressure on housing prices.
 
439Boldwin
ID: 16253251
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 04:23
Source
 
440biliruben
ID: 34435239
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 10:23
Yeah. The building industry is where we usually get our kick in getting out of a recession. Can't rely on them this time, as there is no reason to build.
 
441Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 10:53
Well, the building industry (and the housing industry in general), for a long time, was also covering up underlying problems with the economy. We're now paying for the decades of overbuild and oversell.
 
442Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 11:33
13% of all U.S. homes are vacant.

Holy Cow! Alright, I can count on your support for Immigration Reform, we need to start letting some people into this country so they can occupy these homes, pay taxes, fill our emptying schools and get this country back on track. Let them in!
 
443biliruben
ID: 358252515
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 11:43
And take away the tax advantages for builders and developers. Why we subsidize paving over our forests and farmlands to slap up poorly built, unwanted housing is something I've never understood.

Retrain the contractors to build complete streets, updated electrical backbone, clean-energy technology, high speed transit and the transit oriented development that the population desires.
 
444Mith
ID: 51253421
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 15:50
Sounds like that includes rentals, no? The figure sounds very bad, but (honest question) is it significantly worse than the 12.1% figure in 2007? Were we concerned with the vacancy rate at hat time?

The biggest problem (from this layman's perspective) sounds like the issue bili raises in $443, that we can't depend on that market to help dig us out. Am I missing more?
 
445biliruben
ID: 358252515
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 20:06
Yeah, until we digest this, as well as the shadow inventory (those who are waiting for a better housing market to list) we likely to have pretty anemic employment gains, judging by past recoveries.

I am with zen. Bring in some fresh, hungry new Americans to remind us how to work.
 
446Boldwin
ID: 4213019
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 20:22
The biggest problem is that the uncertainty and threat from Washington is the bottleneck to unlocking this key area of the economy upon which recovery depends.

Businesses can't expand until they get a less threatening atmosphere.

Like WH insiders who explicitly plan to crash the system.

Workers without jobs can't buy houses anymore...as long as we are keeping a sharp eye on Barney Frank and FM/FM.

If households aren't being set up, every last product that fills a house is in the market doldrums.
 
447biliruben
ID: 358252515
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 20:33
What a load of horse manure. Obama has bent over backwards to kiss the ass of business, and record profits have been the result. The aint hiring because there arent customers to by the products.
 
448Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 20:38
Heh. Yeah--corporate taxes lower than the terms of "Godhead" Reagan, and Obama is choking the system because of "uncertainty."

I tell ya--if you want certainty, start a business. No risk of uncertainty there.
 
449Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 21:13
The biggest problem is that the uncertainty and threat from Washington

You're making things up again.



US Business Leaders More Optomistic

Chief executives of the largest U.S. companies plan to hire more workers over the next six months amid expectations that the economy will grow faster than they previously believed, according to a survey released Wednesday.

As for housing, prices are receding to levels where people can actually afford to buy them without voodoo terms. A down payment and decent credit have also reappeared as mandatory elements in most cases. The inventory of foreclosures still haunts the industry and probably will for at least another year.

 
450Boldwin
ID: 4213019
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 21:57
Yeah, no, you're making stuff up. Housing prices falling even further and without the effect of improving sales.
U.S. New-Home Sales Unexpectedly Decline to Record-Low 250000 ...
Purchases of new U.S. homes unexpectedly declined in February to the slowest pace on record
If only I had a dime for everytime the Obama fanclub the MSM uses the term 'unexpectedly' to describe another turn for the worse.

It's only a silver lining if it actually rains.
 
451Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 22:34
Market Watch is the MSM? And what do you call Newsmax, who touts a scam artist like Wayne Allyn Root as a financial analyst and Tea Party Patriot.

At this time, Root's company (W Technologies, Inc., formerly Winning Edge Technologies, Inc., formerly GWIN, Inc.) is apparently a dead stick. Here are some highlights from the company's Business Week profile:

- The company sold its operating assets in September of 2007.

- In November of 2007, the company's auditor reported to the SEC "an unqualified opinion expressing doubt that the company can continue as a going concern."

- Late last month the company defaulted on a payment due of more than $90,000 against promissory notes of more than $450,000. The profile is pessimistic: "If the Company cannot reach a restructuring of the notes, which have an outstanding balance of approximately $456,522, the Company may have to seek bankruptcy protection."

- The company's market cap of about $390k is less than the outstanding debt it's trying to restructure (is there other debt? Well, the company's best performance in the last four years has been a $1.2 million net loss, so ...). Its 52-week high stock price -- which it hit last May -- was 3 cents per share, and as of Valentine's day it stood at eight one hundredths of one cent per share.

The Las Vegas Better Business Bureau lists 14 complaints versus Root's company over a period of 36 months, with only five of those complaints resolved to the BBB's satisfaction and none of them resolved to the customer's satisfaction. Among the complaints are one for "deceptive sales practices," two for "unauthorized credit card charges," and one for "unauthorized bank debits."

Scratch the cheap gold paint Root has dipped himself in, and what you find beneath doesn't look much like a "business mogul" or an "entrepreneur" or a "small businessman." It looks a lot more like a con artist -- specifically the kind known in the sports betting world as a "scamdicapper."


Your buddies at Newsmax, Townhall and right wing radio are doing everything they can to crash the markets, because a healthy and growing economy isn't politically beneficial to the party not in the White House. How you can call yourselves patriots with a straight face is beyond me.



 
452Mith
ID: 51253421
Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 22:42
 
453Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 00:18
Since Obama has taken office the Dow has risen 50%. We have massive problems in this country, mostly because of lingering unemployment and a housing market which has tanked (which are almost the same problem--unemployment outside housing-related industries are about half of our current rates).

But our problems are not a result of businesses holding back because of uncertainty of Obama raising their taxes. Since 2/3 of corporations businesses pay no federal income tax anyway, this should not be a surprise for the vast majority of the country which doesn't memorize the latest meme of the day coming from conservative "media" outlets.
 
454Boldwin
ID: 4213019
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 05:58
But our problems are not a result of businesses holding back because of uncertainty of Obama raising their taxes.

Yes it is the velocity of money slowing to a trickle due to uncertainty regarding taxes and anti-business regulatory burden, particularly those attached to Obamacare.

 
455Boldwin
ID: 4213019
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 06:10
I would also add it is fear of Obama's energy policies. Every viable energy sector faces roadblocks from liberals and Obama.

It doesn't help to have Islamist revolutions in every oil producing muslim country you can think of.

Industry needs stable, reliable, cheap energy. What did you expect business' reaction would be when Obama promised to bankrupt the coal industry? Our cheapest source of energy? Oil isn't allowed to be drilled, nuclear projects are all on hold thanks to liberals. Where is the good news on energy?

The fact that so many states are nearing bankruptcy doesn't lead to business confidence and expansion. There is the potential for ruinous taxes right there. Just ask Catepillar.
 
456Tree
ID: 320371412
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 07:36
anyone who thinks Obama is even remotely liberal, at this point, isn't paying attention, doesn't want to pay attention, is being dishonest, or is just too dumb to actually look at things on their own.
 
457Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 09:01
Just ask Catepillar.

Caterpillar Inc. (CAT 111.54, +0.01, +0.01%) leads the 30 stocks in the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA 12,351, +71.60, +0.58%) with a year-to-date rise of 19.1%, according to Dow Jones Indexes.

What are we supposed to ask them? How does it feel to have your stock rise almost 20% in 3 months? Is your business confidence shattered?
Because I got those numbers from today's Market Watch, should we just chalk it up to the MSM running ineterference for Obama?

Oil isn't allowed to be drilled
US domestic oil production 2003-2011

Domestic production has increased during Obama's first two years. And, to continue the MarketWatch story started above, re; Caterpillar,

With one trading day left in the first quarter, Chevron Corp.(CVX 108.30, +0.29, +0.27%) holds the No. 2 slot with a gain of 18.4%.

Over half of the land already leased in this country for oil and gas exploration and production currently sits idle. Why should oil companies spend a ton of money developing these fields when they're currently enjoying huge profits at current production levels? To make a statement like

Oil isn't allowed to be drilled

is simply another example of making things up. What you meant to say was,

"Oil isn't allowed to be drilled anywhere, at any time, with absolutely no regard for fragile eco-systems and future environmental degradation."

 
458Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 10:06
Heh. PV and I point to specific, market responses to businesses in this country under Obama, yet Baldwin insists they still fear, without showing any facts to back it up except his own anxieties of living under the thumb of a Democratic president.

We'll see which one gets picked up in the marketplace of ideas of this forum.
 
459Boldwin
ID: 4213019
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 10:18
What are we supposed to ask them?

What are you going to tell your shareholders when they ask you why you didn't move away from the worst taxes in the universe?

They've only recently given the first offshore gulf drilling permit since last April. One full year blockade from the 'energy president'.

They put 34 permits in the way of drilling and lately the EPA has become a one agency wrecking crew on the energy industry as they attempt to do a cap and trade end-run around congress. Shell was all set to drill in Alaska with 33 of those permits but the EPA just wouldn't let them.

It doesn't do any good for Shell to find a Beaufort super-massive oil field when they know Obama is never gonna let them produce there anyway.

No oil for capitalism. Plenty saved up for after the revolution.
 
460Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 10:32
You're talking about the same project that the Administration agreed to continue moving on despite bans elsewhere and heavy environmental organizational pressure for him to halt the process?

Once again, your fears can be lessened if only you let the facts of the case come to bear.
 
461Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 10:44
#459

You need to start getting financial news from financial news sources instead of politically biased and agenda-driven sources.

Regurgitating red meat claims of hysteria provides comical entertainment for a while, but the slavish devotion to pessimism and negativity surely must get tiresome, even for you.
 
462biliruben
ID: 34435239
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 12:05
I understand Cat got a bit whingy, and complains bitterly about all-things-obama, but it is really, really hard to refute how their shareholders feel:



Buy 10000 shares 2 years ago, have your 250K turn into $1.1 Million in 2 years. Clearly hating it.

Now what I've been saying businesses have been concerned about is not taxes or "uncertainty", but sales:


Cat Revenue:
2008 51 billion
2009 32 billion
2010 43 billion

What you claim is it's taxes:

Cat Income tax:
2008 .95 billion
2009 -.27 billion (tax payers paid CAT a quarter of a billion!)
2010 .97 billion

clearly onerous.

It's the sales, stupid. If they can't sell new machines, then why would they hire new employees?

And given how dependent they likely are on residential development (bringing this back to the thread topic), until we see a significant uptick in housing sales, we probably won't see cat getting back to their 2008 sales levels any time soon.

I won't embarrass you further, baldy, by listing their profits.


 
463Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 12:11
...and, scene.

 
464Tosh
Leader
ID: 057721710
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 12:33
[459] They've only recently given the first offshore gulf drilling permit since last April. -

That claim has been rated as "Liar. Pants on Fire".

According to the report, 39 shallow-water permits for new wells have been issued since June 8, 2010, when new rules and information requirements were put into effect. Shallow water drilling operations were not affected by the deepwater drilling moratorium following the gulf oil spill. And there were lots more shallow-water well permits issued by the Obama administration prior to June 8, 2010. Remember, Bachmann's statement referred to permits issued "under the Obama administration since they came into office."

In addition, there have been six deepwater well permits issued since Oct. 12, 2010, when the gulf moratorium was lifted. Five of those were for projects that were under way prior to the moratorium. The operators were required to come back and meet the new, modified standards.
 
465Boldwin
ID: 4213019
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 16:33
Great fallacy guys: You didn't disprove X and Y therefore you didn't disprove A.
----

Fiduciary responsibility:
Making decisions to protect the assets of the corporation.
Therefore I repeat:

What are you going to tell your shareholders when they ask you why you didn't move away from the worst taxes in the universe?
 
466Tosh
Leader
ID: 057721710
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 16:48
Congrats Boldwin. A google search of "worst taxes in the universe" yields a total of one result. Back to this thread.

It's hard to make up a phrase that only has one result.
 
467DWetzel
ID: 278201415
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 16:50
"It costs more to move than to stay and eat the taxes, when factoring in lost productivity, training of new workers, and moving costs among other things, and we have some obligation to our workers to not just carpetbag wherever we can for every last anti-tax dollar for the long term good of the company and if we're to continue to have any hope of maintaining productive relationships with local, state, and federal governments".

What do I win.
 
468Boldwin
ID: 4213019
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 17:05
Tosh

Read the links, try and keep up.

From "the Direction of the Democratic Party II" thread, Post#544:
According to the nonpartisan Tax Foundation: "The corporate income tax will rise from 7.3% to 10.9%, a 49% increase and (making Illinois') the highest state corporate income tax in the United States and the highest combined national-local corporate income tax in the industrialized world."

In other words, anyplace Caterpillar moves and that means anywhere the tax situation will be an improvement on what it faces in Illinois.
BTW TOSH, I am not some mind-numbed robot. I actually make my posts and points myself, not just regurgitate the right's version of TalkingPointMemo like some posters here, so trying to re-engineer my post by googling where it came from won't work.
 
469Boldwin
ID: 4213019
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 17:12
DWETZ What do I win.

A no expenses paid trip to go visit Tree in Texas, as well as to visit Peoria's amazing Billion dollar a year Cat Research Center, now relocated in business friendly Texas.

How I used to gaze in awe at that spooky black virtually windowless matte-black building everytime I passed the Mossville Cat plant and then drove past the peoria employee mansions of those workers up on the hills surrounding new Rt.6.
 
470DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710
Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 17:22
I think corporations should be banned from exploiting these government entities for billions of dollars in abusive giveaways to their corporate cronies, which is the real reason most of these businesses are moving.

Or is it only abusive government handouts when unions do it, and smart business when corporations do it?
 
471Frick
ID: 5310541617
Fri, Apr 01, 2011, 15:55
Businesses also have a responsibility to their other stakeholders.

And like most answers, the answer isn't a simple yes/no. Moving has many costs, both explicit and implicit. How many of Cat's employees would move with the company? While they could all be replaced, how much institutional knowledge would be lost?
 
472Boldwin
ID: 4635123
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 09:53
Yeah...except Stakeholder Capitalism doesn't really work out so good. Nor does the concept legally annul the legal obligation to maximize shareholder return.

Maybe the UAW which drove Cat contracts thru the roof shouldn't have also been bankrolling politicians who spent like drunken sailors not even slowing their spending in a depression and drove corporate taxes thru the roof.

I would call that the law of diminishing returns for union thug behavior. Eventually the bullied leave.
 
473Boldwin
ID: 4635123
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 09:55
Come to think of it, lots of my childhood friends did leave for 'right to work' states.
 
474Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 10:10
You really have to stop living in the 1970's. UAW and Catepillar sign contract, boosting health care premiums for workers and offering no raises for the life of the agreement.
 
475Boldwin
ID: 4635123
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 12:11
Yeah, well Cat found a work-around the union. They outsource everything to vendors not paying those truly outrageous wages. So the UAW started taking what they could get finally instead of demanding the moon.

You really don't want to debate me on Catepillar and I won't debate you on copyright issues.
 
476Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 12:13
Heh. So long as you agree to talk about current (not projected, not past) Cat issues I'm happy to bow to your expertise.

Even you can see that much of what you post on that company is a fearful projection.
 
477Boldwin
ID: 4635123
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 12:14
Besides they already had negotiated for and won the moon. So what if their most recent contract didn't get moon+.
 
478Boldwin
ID: 4635123
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 12:17
I'll stay fearful on this one. You can stage the next journey to the center of the earth in the hundred mile radius crater centered on Peoria if Cat leaves.
 
479biliruben
ID: 34435239
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 12:54
Letting international corporations blackmail state after state is unsustainable and bad for our society as a whole. Just say no to corporate blackmail. If that means that the jobs move to Indiana or Mississippi, so be it. Still Americans.
 
480Boldwin
ID: 4635123
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 17:05
Smarter Americans.
 
481Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 17:40
So unions are not smart to negotiate a six year no-raise contract? Or smart? Now you are confusing, coming from some distant past as you are.

Do you believe that Cat would have gotten a better deal if they moved somewhere else where there there was no union strength? If so, how does that help an area's economy?
 
482Boldwin
ID: 4635123
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 19:25
1) In a depression they should be giving back and working with management to keep the company afloat and competitive.

2) Of course.

3) How does it help an area to pick up a fortune 50 company? How does it help to lose one. Companies are not in the business of propping up wasteful and hostile states.
 
483Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 19:50
Neither should you be more focused on propping up companies. They can take care of themselves.

You should be far more focused on people, not companies.
 
484Boldwin
ID: 4635123
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 21:04
You should be more focused on economic reality and less on rainbows and utopian thinking.
 
485DWetzel
ID: 31111810
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 21:11
How does it help an area to pick up a Fortune 50 company that the area has to overpay for, and that will carpetbag right back out chasing the next dollar once you start to try to recover the wheelbarrows of cash you bribed them with (er, I mean, "economic incentives" from your taxpayers)?
 
486Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 21:18
#484: That is a genuine LOL. You've spent much of this thread, and others, telling us fantastic tales of the future, ignoring the facts on the ground which disprove your visionary "Democrats Are Proven Devils!" future.

The economic reality is that Cat is making a lot of money, and have been really making a lot of money since Obama took office. They just signed a contract with the union in which their workers agree to not take raises for six years. And good for them.

This should all be pushed aside based on a fantasy of Cat not actually making money and not seeing their stock go up and up (perhaps, in this alternative universe, they are driven from town by callous workers tossing eggs at them after being on strike for 8 months).

Reality isn't helping you on this issue, friend.
 
487Boldwin
ID: 4635123
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 21:21
Governor Quinn and Speaker for Life Madigan aren't making Democrats, Illinois and machine politics look good, my friend.
 
488Boldwin
ID: 4635123
Sat, Apr 02, 2011, 21:27
And when those two give Cat the finger and tell them they aren't going to stop buying votes or even slow down in a depression, the only realistic response is goodbye.

Or in your bubble, "Why sure, here's a blank check and we'll just pass that bird right on to our shareholders at the next meeting".
 
489Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Tue, May 10, 2011, 16:12
Americans have lost $10.06 trillion in home equity since the peak of the housing bubble. But only $530 billion in mortgage debt has been defaulted or written off by the banks. Until this debt is cleared... there's no guessing what mayhem the banks and/or Wall Street or Congress will get up to.
 
490Khahan
ID: 373143013
Tue, May 10, 2011, 16:23
My home value is down almost $100k from when I bought it. But I haven't lost squat, so take me out of that figure. No desire to sell. No need to take a loan against it.

In about another 20 years, we'll look at the value of my house and then determine what, if any, home equity I lost.


Those numbers are truly meaningless paired together. There is absolutely no context to them. There is no reality to the comparison. Putting large numbers like that up there is nothing more than a scare tactic for the masses.

If somebody wants meaningful stats, the information needs to be mined for more background information. But for a news story, 10.06 trillion is much more sexy (and unsubstantiated, but that doesn't matter).
 
491Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Tue, May 10, 2011, 16:39
How about I post what I want to, and you can post what you want to. Other readers may be interested in those stats.

My home value is down almost $100k from when I bought it. But I haven't lost squat.

You have a $100,000 paper loss.
You have an unrealized loss of $100,000.
If you sell your house, you will lose $100,000.
 
492Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Tue, May 10, 2011, 16:39
My home value is down almost $100k from when I bought it. But I haven't lost squat, so take me out of that figure. No desire to sell. No need to take a loan against it.

Exactly. In fact, part of the reason we had such a huge housing bubble is that banks and real estate professionals sold the public on the idea of their houses being equity instead of homes. The belief that we have "lost" equity is another step into the fantastical realm of the Realtor.
 
493Khahan
ID: 54138190
Tue, May 10, 2011, 17:21
You have a $100,000 paper loss.
You have an unrealized loss of $100,000.
If you sell your house, you will lose $100,000.


Very big fallacy. What does a loss on paper mean? Right now, to me, it means absolutely nothing. Zilch.

I've lost nothing. I paid X amount for my house (and still making that payment) and I have the exact same house I obtained at settlement. I am not selling it. I am not taking a loan against it.

I'm not concerned about what might happen, if. At least not in this scenario. If I or my wife lose our job or get transferred and we have to sell, THEN I will have lost $100,000. But we haven't lost our jobs, we havent been transferred. We are not moving, selling or otherwise doing anything with our house but living in it. I have lost nothing.

Just like stocks. If I buy $10,000 worth of stocks and the stock price drops from $20 to $10, I haven't lost a thing yet. Not until I sell. "lost on paper" is a meaningless catch phrase that sounds good to unscrupulous portfolio managers who want to get you to buy financial products from them that you don't need.

As of today I intend to be in my house at least another 20 years, maybe longer. I've lost nothing. So again, don't count my house in those meaningless, scare-tactic figures.
 
494Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Tue, May 10, 2011, 17:28
Go ahead and keep telling your family that you haven't lost $100,000 on your house.

I have a stock that has lost $1000. I tried to pull a Khahan, and told my wife, we have not lost $1000. She didn't swallow it.
 
495Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Tue, May 10, 2011, 17:33
See, that is the main difference: Stocks are financial instruments. Houses are not. Maybe she wasn't buying it because she perceives the difference you do not.

And (again) using a bubble mentality about houses reveals that people still haven't learned the lessens necessary when it burst.
 
496weykool
ID: 343561414
Tue, May 10, 2011, 18:52
Khahan and PD are making great points.
In addition I would like to add another:

I buy my home for 500K
It increases in value to 900K.
The bubble bursts and is now only worth 600K.
Should the bank be expected to somehow write off the 300K "lost value" to clear the debt?

Be careful when you look at statistics without examining all of the underlying data.
 
497Frick
ID: 52182321
Tue, May 10, 2011, 19:28
Post 489 is trying to draw a conclusion from two unrelated statements. The amount of debt that has been written off is a fact. The amount of home equity that has been lost is more of an estimate. Aside from that, what correlation is there between home owners that have a home that is paid for and written off debt? My parents have a home that has been paid off. It has likely declined in value in the last few years, but what does that have to do with debt write-offs?

As PD mentioned, stocks are financial instruments. While many people treated homes as financial instruments, they ultimately are not, unless you are a real-estate speculator. My home has lost value, ok, I'm not planning on selling, so nothing has changed. Warren Buffet is considered to be one of the best investors of the last 100 years. Read one of his books and see how often he checks the prices of stocks that he owns. He gives a great reason for why he doesn't The stock market tells you the price that a stock is selling for. It doesn't tell you the value. Keep those two ideas separate. Price and value are not the same thing.
 
498Khahan
ID: 54138190
Tue, May 10, 2011, 23:48
Go ahead and keep telling your family that you haven't lost $100,000 on your house.

I don't need to. My wife agrees with me. Until we actually try to sell it, we have not lost anything.

One other thing we are not doing - we have not put together a portfolio of our networth that includes the value of our home and tried to give ourselves an appraised value or personal wealth value based on that. Whatever our personal worth may be , we are not trying to take a loan out on it. We are not borrowing against it, hedging on it, betting on it or in anyway having it affect any financial decisions we make.

The only thing we did was include the amount of our mortgage when we considered how much life insurance to take out.

So no, we have not lost anything because we have not included it in anything. We have not in any way, shape or form counted on it for anything.

And as pointed out, if we bought it for $400,000 and its now worth $900,000, we also have not gained anything. Not until we sell it or try to take a home equity loan out against that $500,000. Until we actually try to do something w/ that increased value we have not gained squat.

 
499Tree
ID: 320371412
Wed, May 11, 2011, 00:47
I don't need to. My wife agrees with me. Until we actually try to sell it, we have not lost anything.

this is exactly correct.

i've got a ton of valuable baseball cards. but that card that lists at $500? i haven't lost $500 by holding it - but if i sell it for $300 because i can't get anyone to pay $500 for it? well that's another story...
 
500Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Wed, May 11, 2011, 07:53
Heading into wordsmithing terrority. I think we all know the difference between a realized loss and an unrealized loss. I hope your house recovers it value.

So Tree, what's your most valuable baseball card?
 
501Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Wed, May 11, 2011, 08:02
 
502Khahan
ID: 373143013
Wed, May 11, 2011, 09:08
hope your house recovers it value

Thanks, if things go as planned, we should have about another 20 years before its a concern.
 
504Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Wed, Oct 19, 2011, 22:26
Citi to pay $285 million to settle SEC fraud charges regarding the repackaging of risky mortgages.
 
505Frick
      ID: 387512315
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 08:32
I wish I could be punished like Citi. What type of deterrent would a $0.03 speeding ticket be?
 
506sarge33rd
      ID: 329132012
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 13:13
The settlement may also have trouble getting approval from Jed S. Rakoff, the federal district judge in New York who must ultimately sign off on the fine and who has taken a hard line on S.E.C. settlements.

Our one hope for some REAL punitive measures?
 
507boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 13:43
I am not sure what fining the company does, wouldn't make more sense to fine the employees who decided repack the risky mortgages?
 
508Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 16:08
Or at least stop giving them bonuses.
 
509Boldwin
      ID: 35615181
      Thu, Oct 20, 2011, 17:21
In all these cases it was the board of directors who chose to line their pockets with bonuses from year-to-year increases while they neutered and gutted the risk management and fraud watch departments.

This isn't on the employees.
Two examples:

2003; Ameriquest named...Ed Parker to investigate fraud at it's branches...he soon decided that, "I was not brought in to do a job. I was brought in to provide cover."...he says he was turned down for promotions, cut out of decision making, and eventually fired in July of 2006. "Ameriquest was involved in fraud for years...My problem was they did not want to know."

-----------

Once Kurland was officially out the door, Sambol began taking control of Countrywide. One of the first things he did was sideline some of the company's governance structures, such as it's executive risk committee, according to a former executive. Under Kurland, tghe protocol had always been to meet roughly six times a year. Under Sambol, it met once. Every meeting after that was canceled.
- All the Devils Are Here, Bethany McLean and Joe Nocera
 
510boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 10:37
Well fine the board of directors then, not the company.
 
511sarge33rd
      ID: 309252112
      Fri, Oct 21, 2011, 13:35
if a corporation ia an individual under political contribution laws; then it is an individual for compliance law too. Fine the living pi$$ out of them for these economy destroying actions and use those monies to provide Unemployment benefits and mortgage buy down benefits for those who were screwed by these outfits.
 
512Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Sun, Oct 23, 2011, 12:54
Bank of America passing off risky derivatives onto depositors.
 
513Perm Dude
      ID: 39961218
      Fri, Nov 04, 2011, 13:52
Did Fanny and Freddy cause the housing collapse?
 
514Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 13:27
More on what caused the crash. Or more importantly, the boogeyman 1977 law which did not.
 
515Boldwin
      ID: 4110312718
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 15:17
Oh wow does he turn a blind eye when it suits him. In order to force illegal aliens and unemployed and any poor person whatsoever into a home, they lowered loan requirements everywhere. They didn't just say, only if you are a minority do you get to do 'no doc' loans without any realistic hope of repayment.
 
516Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 15:27
I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't think you do either.

The 1977 law had virtually nothing to do with the housing bubble. And we know this because the evidence demonstrates it.

If, indeed, that law made the housing bubble occur, at the very least the timing and magnitude for defaults of those obtaining mortgages under that law would have been higher and more frequent at the bubble began to pop. And they weren't.

That law didn't cover the vast majority of risky mortgages. It didn't cover any commercial loans, which were also tanking. And it didn't cover home mortgages outside the United States, which also had a housing bubble.

Your theory doesn't answer any of these other problems. That's because it doesn't fit.
 
517Boldwin
      ID: 4110312718
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 15:48
To be fair there were two components. One was that the CRA forced lower lending requirments all over the country not just so called redlined communities.

The other side of the problem was that there suddenly appeared a market for all that bad paper.

The market for bad securities reached beyond our borders. If more money is available to chase bad loans, more bad loans will be made, bubbles will grow and burst.

The poorly regulated and unsustainably leveraged derivitives markets know no borders and apparently effected housing markets elsewhere as well.

Central banks aren't limited to our country. Are run by the same dynasty wealth and they time the bubbles.
 
518sarge33rd
      ID: 010232811
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 16:14
The CRA did NOT lower lending requirements. It prohibited, discriminatory lending practices that had been common place prior.

For ex, a single woman could seldom obtain a mortgage prior to CRA, REGARDLESS of income/history. Why? She might get pregnant and quit her job. CRA made such aspects, illegal in the consideration of the loan.

Really B, try READING the CRA instead of swallowing the BS stories and lies, spread by those with an agenda.
 
519sarge33rd
      ID: 010232811
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 16:16
REDLINING, or what the CRA was to remedy
 
520Boldwin
      ID: 4110312718
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 17:25
Yeah...lol...no, it got so bad that HUD required FM to do 50% of their business with less than desirable borrowers:
In November 2000 Fannie Mae announced that the Department of Housing and Urban Development ("HUD") would soon require it to dedicate 50% of its business to low- and moderate-income families." - wiki
No, they didn't demand they specifically start loaning to illegal aliens without jobs but the goal requirements drove the lowering of standards as much as the demand in the securities market for subprime bundles.
 
521Boldwin
      ID: 4110312718
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 17:28
Correction, again FM/FM didn't loan, they bought those poor loans and wrote the standards by which those loans were written.
 
522Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 18:09
You still haven't address the lack of actual evidence. Mostly, because the evidence points in the other direction.

If your premise is correct, the CRA-based mortgages would have had a higher default rate and they would have been defaulting at the same frequency (minimum) as other loans.

If the default rate for CRA-based loans was not higher than other mortgages then your premise is incorrect. There is simply no other way to look at it.

Unless, of course, you are now of the belief that we have gone through a housing crisis which was unconnected to mortgage default rates...

And none of this speaks to the housing crisis in other countries, nor to the collapse of the commercial market.
 
523sarge33rd
      ID: 010232811
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 18:52
In November 2000 Fannie Mae announced that the Department of Housing and Urban Development ("HUD") would soon require it to dedicate 50% of its business to low- and moderate-income families."

This does not mean more low income loans need to be made, It ONLY means, Fed funds will be targetted more toward that segment than in the past. IOW (nrs are purely hypothetical):

Banks write $10,000,0000 in paper last month
Freddie and Fannie have $2,000,000 to buy paper
$8,000,000 was to prime and $2,000,000 to subprime
Freddie and Fannie bought $1,500,000 prime and $500,000 subprime

new rules....

Banks write $10,000,0000 in paper
FM/FM has $2,000,0000
Banks write 8m prime and 2m sub
FM/FM buys $1,000,000 ea prime and subprime


The rate of writing loans by the lenders, is unchanged. The allocation of FM monies, does not and did not dictate the terms of lending.

And FTR, the CRA, states explicitly, that banks must follow sound lending practices.
 
524Boldwin
      ID: 1510432817
      Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 19:01
Why is it that you buy every syllable of every lying politician unless they are muslims or marxists promising to kill us?

There was no standard low enuff to worry Frank and Dodd and no upper limit to subprime lending in their eyes.

In their cases you can tell exactly what they are lying about by how they are reassuring you.