Forum: pol
Page 3055
Subject: The Real Obama


  Posted by: Boldwin - [3013265] Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 22:39

A week of asking Obama supporters for details has still put no flesh on those bones. I intend to collect anything concrete I can find into this thread.

Anytime Obama supporters want to illuminate the subject I'll be waiting.
 
1biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 22:42
Empty vacuous thoughts c-n-p from the McCain thread:

He's said he will appoint Republicans to his cabinet.

I find him much more honestly centrist than Hillary "Where the Polling Winds Blow" Clinton or John "I'm only moderate when it suits me" McCain.

In particular, it would have been easy to take the left stance on universal health care, and potentially promise more than he could deliver. He took the more reasonable, centrist, road. I don't agree with him, but I respect him.

He is going against the polls on immigration as well. There I agree with him. Jingoistic race-baiting and scapegoating shouldn't be condoned or pandered to. Here the majority is in the wrong.

I also like that he doesn't first scream "bailout" regarding the mortgage crisis. He will attempt to force those who profited to foot some of the bill in the fix.

I also like the mortgage credit instead of interest deduction idea. He understands the the tax incentives are perverse for homeownership, and that it helps folks much more who already have a home than those struggling to afford their first one.
 
2Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 22:51
Obviously the closest anyone has come to answering me, and I appreciate the effort but in the future could you include your source? Speculation is a game anyone can play. One secure footstep at a time.
 
3Perm Dude
ID: 10136157
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 23:44
On the Issues entry for Barack Obama

Had a *huge* post that just disappeared. I'm too frustrated to type more.
 
4Tree
ID: 131531518
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 23:50
Obama's Blueprint for Change...aka, the document with too many words for Baldwin to read.
 
5Tree
ID: 131531518
Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 23:54
Barack, on his religion...

"In the internet age, there are going to be lies that are spread all over the place. I have been victimized by these lies. Fortunately, the American people are, I think, smarter than folks give them credit for."

— Barack Obama, MSNBC Debate, January 15, 2008

 
6Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 00:00
in the future could you include your source?

Like when you did when you heard that Obama's second father was a radical Moslem?
 
7Perm Dude
ID: 10136157
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 00:11
I couldn't resist. Went on the Barack Obama website and came out with my personal fundraising page.

Despite being made out of a series of tubes this internets thingy is pretty cool.
 
8Tree
ID: 131531518
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 00:12
oh, and bili did include his source...

from the McCain thread..

i think that is an important distinction, because i have a pretty strong feeling that any "GOTCHA!" type of info you will no doubt be scouring the web for (no time to read what Obama actually says, only time to search search search for what others say he says!) will come from a blog that was like "i have to keep my identity secret, but i was there at the communist meeting, and Obama was there. and he was wearing a lemon chiffon dress!"
 
9Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 00:14
I merely asked if anyone could verify or refute the charge making no judgement myself. No one even wants to know.

Head in the sand and let's all just hope real hard.
 
10sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 00:17
Refute what "charge"? You mean oyur mindless speculation meant to influence those too stupid to realize the premise/notion is being put forward without basis in fact? Thats not a charge Boldy...thats a smear tactic. Time was, that was beneath you.
 
11Perm Dude
ID: 10136157
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 00:21
What is that--some kind of joke? You toss out a clearly false charge and you are making "no judgement" yourself? What does that mean? Are you the media now--throwing up a "he said/she said" story even if what "she said" is crap?

Let's be clear: The charge is pure crap. By refusing to call a spade a spade you advocate a truth-free zone where impressions, innuendo, feelings, and talking about talking replace facts.

For someone so convinced of his own moral absolutes, this is (at best) a curious position to take.
 
12Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 00:21
oh, and bili did include his source...

from the McCain thread..
- Tree

He cut-n-pasted his own speculation from the McCain thread. I ask for the wellspring of that speculation.

You really have no clue how clueless you are, do you, Tree?

 
13biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 00:42
Well, that he would consider Republicans for his cabinet came from a debate.

The rest come from a number of sources, but you can get his platform straight from his website (which you should know, having read it). The facts, not my opinion about those facts obviously.

 
14Tree
ID: 131531518
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 00:49
that point went so far over your head. i guess i have to spell it out.

what i did was called sarcasm...that's pronounced sär-ˌka-zəm.

seriously - it was to say that really, any tom, dick, or harry can say anything, and then suddenly, it's a source.

does it matter if bili is his own source, when many of the shadow sources you provide are dubious in nature, at best?
 
15Wilmer McLean
ID: 151481519
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 03:42
Be wary folks, Susan Sarandon and I agree,

So I think he definitely has convinced people that he stands for change and for hope, and I can't wait to see what he stands for.
 
16Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 06:33
What is that--some kind of joke? You toss out a clearly false charge - PD

If it's so asy to do so, then please twitch yer pinky and disprove it and we can move on.

No, 'how dare you ask' does not constitute proof.
 
17Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 06:39
The Great Leader Talks Guns After NIU

MILWAUKEE -- Barack Obama said Friday that the country must do ''whatever it takes'' to eradicate gun violence following a campus shooting in his home state, but he believes in an individual's right to bear arms.

The senator, a former constitutional law instructor, said some scholars argue the Second Amendment to the Constitution guarantees gun ownerships only to militias, but he believes it grants individual gun rights.

''I think there is an individual right to bear arms, but it's subject to common sense regulation'' like background checks, he said.

He said he would support federal legislation based on a California law that would speed immediate tracing of bullets used in a crime.


That's the whole article folks. I loved his specific action on "common sense regulation". That could be anything and I doubt the liberal is only in favor of regulation by background checks.
 
18Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 06:40
Has anyone here read Obama's 60 page PDF?
 
19Perm Dude
ID: 1112167
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 08:16
#18: Yes. But the point here is that you haven't.

#17: Now you are taking Obama to task because a reporters writing about him are filed a short pieces At lease have the decency to watch the speech before you imply he is without ideas. Or at least glance over the link in #3.

#16: If you can't be bothered to click the link we really can't help you. We're putting bread in front of a man who looks up, crying, and says "But only if I had some food." Stop whining about people who have given you the information as though you lack the ability to click through, This is ridiculous. At this point we can only conclude that you don't want the information.

 
20Tree
ID: 59159166
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 08:16
What is that--some kind of joke? You toss out a clearly false charge - PD

If it's so asy to do so, then please twitch yer pinky and disprove it and we can move on.


so, in other words, if your neighbor went around telling the rest of his neighbors that you were having a gay affair with another neighbor, they should expect you disprove it, instead of he prove it?

what kind of backwards world do you live in??

That's the whole article folks. I loved his specific action on "common sense regulation". That could be anything and I doubt the liberal is only in favor of regulation by background checks.

so now it's Barack Obama's fault for what a stringer for the AP does or does not write?

is Conservative America really that afraid of chance? afraid of a black man who might actually bridge two sides.

it amazes me - people who don't even want to know where Obama stands on the issues are so quick to attack, without even knowing what he believes, without even wanting to know what he believes.

here are just a few of the things he believes needs to happen regarding control - I REALIZE FULLY THAT THESE MIGHT BE A BIT TOO LONG FOR SOME OF OUR CONSERVATIVES HERE TO BOTHER READING, AND I REALIZE FULLY THAT THEY MAY NOT YET QUITE UNDERSTAND HOW TO USE THAT NEW FANGLED THING CALLED GOOGLE, BUT HERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS, from ontheissues.com:

Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.


Granted, those come from a 10-year-old document, so it's possible he's since altered his stance, but those, to me, seem fairly "common sense"...

he voted NO on Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act; Bill S 397...A bill to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others.

Voting YES would:

* Exempt lawsuits brought against individuals who knowingly transfer a firearm that will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime
* Exempt lawsuits against actions that result in death, physical injury or property damage due solely to a product defect
* Call for the dismissal of all qualified civil liability actions pending on the date of enactment by the court in which the action was brought
* Prohibit the manufacture, import, sale or delivery of armor piercing ammunition, and sets a minimum prison term of 15 years for violations
* Require all licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers who engage in the transfer of handguns to provide secure gun storage or safety devices


that seems like "common sense" to me.

and finally, from the Audacity of Hope:
I believe in keeping guns out of our inner cities, and that our leaders must say so in the face of the gun manfuacturer's lobby. But I also believe that when a gangbanger shoots indiscriminately into a crowd because he feels someone disrespected him, we have a problem of morality. Not only do ew need to punish thatman for his crime, but we need to acknowledge that there's a hole in his heart, one that government programs alone may not be able to repair.

that also seems like "common sense" to me.

LOL. i still can't get over being critical of Obama because of what some stringer wrote about him and in a distributed AP story. that's too funny...and sad.
 
21walk
ID: 2530286
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 08:23
I have not read the entire 60 page pdf, but I've read pieces. The insinuation by Boldwin, and others, including Susan Sarandon is bogus IMO. I think Obama's been far more specific than any one in the republican race is/was, and only a little less detailed than Hillary who is even less so than Edwards was. One of his apparent strengths (oratory) seemingly must accompany a complimentary weakness (substance)...just because. It's bull. The other implication of this thread is something along the lines of "prove to me you know what Obama stands for so I can respect your support of him. You just like him for no reason other than is his message and speaking abilities." It's a test. Whatever. This tactic can easily be reversed on the thread creator or for any other candidate, proving nothing other than low-brow tactics.

Obama has positions and policies. If you disagree with them, fine, or if you'd rather have a stronger person in terms of knowledge such as Clinton (her strength) or Edwards, vote for them. Or, you can vote for McCain who admittedly weak in eco policy and strong in foreign policy and ready to bomb, bomb, bomb Iran.
 
22walk
ID: 2530286
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 08:36
Obama's also addressed this alleged substance thing (really makes me mad when Sarandon says: "tell us what you stand for"...ppplease, freakin listen to the guy or read this web-site). He said: "At the beginning of the campaign, my speeches were detailed and policy laden, and I got a lot of feedback that I was boring. Where was the inspiring messages?" So, he reverted.

I think ultimately, the essense and tone of his speeches are a strategem: Get people excited, get them to attend, get them to freakin pay attention, by giving them a more unified approach, a less old school politics, a more "we" instead of "me" style, and some specifics. Then, now that they are involved and attending, give them more specifics. Starting off with an emphasis only on the specifics may not be enough to galvanize a huge supoirt base (see Edwards) to overtake a very established de-facto nominee (Clinton). Neglecting the specifics, implied in this thread, is bad of course, but I don't think he's done that. He has not been as detailed as Hillary, as this is her strength. Does that mean Hillary is not inspirational, a divider, all things opposite to someone who is a knowledgeable policy person? It's the converse of the anti-Obama spin.

I like what Huckabee said when he was asked why he thinks Obama is doing better than Hillary lately: "The American voters don't want someone to fix their carburator, they want someone who can drive the car."

Presidents must be smart, have knowledge, but not be the accountant or the engineer. They must be leaders first, with wisdom, judgment and problem solving abilities (both in terms of analytics and also in terms of relationships)...Obama, to me, would excel in these qualities. And, his views are aligned to mine.
 
23Boxman
ID: 211139621
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 09:39
"Common sense regulation" to you liberals is stealing our rights under the 2nd Amendment to a good number of folks. Keep guns out of inner cities? Is that implying that all peeps in inner cities are gang bangers, felons and law breakers?
 
24Guru
ID: 330592710
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 09:44
Following is the post that PD lost in [3]. The spam blocker torched it due to the number of embedded links.

In the future, if any of you have a lot of links to post, make sure your GuruPatron ID is active, and the spam blocker will let the post go through.


1st of 3

On the Issues entry for Barack Obama

Technology position paper

Review, part 1 of 5

Review, part 2 of 5

Review, part 3 of 5

Review, part 4 of 5

Review, part 5 of 5

Space position paper

Review of space plan

Speech on public service

I still remember a conversation I had with an older man before I left. He looked and! said, "Barack, I'll give you a bit of advice. Forget this com! munity organizing business and do something that's gonna make you some money. You can't change the world, and people won't appreciate you trying. You've got a nice voice. What you should do is go into television broadcasting. I'm telling you, you've got a future."

Now, he may have had a point about the TV thing. And to tell you the truth, I didn't have a clear answer about what I was doing. I wanted to step into the currents of history and help people fight for their dreams, but didn't know what my role would be. I was inspired by what people like Harris did in the civil rights movement, but when I got to Chicago, there were no marches, no soaring speeches. In the shadow of an empty steel plant, there were just a lot of folks struggling. Day after day, I heard "no" a lot more than I heard "yes." I saw plenty of empty chairs in those meetings we put together.

But even as I discovered that you can't bend! history to your will, I found that you could do your part to see that -- in the words of Dr. King -- it "bends toward justice." In church basements and around kitchen tables, block by block, we brought the community together, registered new voters, fought for new jobs, and helped people live lives with some measure of dignity.


Energy position papers

Obama and Sen. Jim Bunning, Kentucky Republican, also introduced the Coal-to-Liquid Fuel Promotion Act of 2007, which would set the stage for large-scale production of transportation fuels from coal, though he's still mulling this over, particularly vis-a-vis cap-and-trade and other issues on the polluting side.

Wants safe nuclear power to be in the mix, but tighter safety means more oversight.
 
25Perm Dude
ID: 1112167
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 09:47
Thanks, Guru.

#23: We're not implying anything. This thread is about directing you to Obama's actual positions.
 
26Boxman
ID: 211139621
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 09:48
You people harassing Boldwin for not reading a 60 page document is a tad silly don't you think? Hell I don't have time to read a 60 page anything that isn't the specific book on my reading list. I'm sure the man has a family, hobbies and other interests besides this site.
 
27Boxman
ID: 211139621
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 09:51
This thread is about directing you to Obama's actual positions.

Sure it is and as soon as you guys detail positions from non biased 3rd party sources in some format that's just a wee bit easier on the eyes than a 60 page pdf doc, holler.

His comment about keeping guns out of inner cities is a little frightening. Not all people in inner cities are bad people, just bad circumstances. You would think Obama, above all other candidates, would know the dangers of stereotyping, but that doesn't stop him from trying to take guns away from poor people.
 
28Perm Dude
ID: 1112167
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 09:52
We wouldn't be bashing him if he hadn't specifically asked for details (after implying that Obama is all smoke-and-mirrors), then balking at how long the document is.

There are plenty of other places to find Obama's actual positions, however. One needn't make assumptions on the point.
 
29Perm Dude
ID: 1112167
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 09:56
#27: Sure it is and as soon as you guys detail positions from non biased 3rd party sources in some format that's just a wee bit easier on the eyes than a 60 page pdf doc, holler.

ROFL! No, I'm not going to fall into that trap, Boxman. We aren't going to find some acceptable third-party who has pre-digested the information for you. We are directing you to the actual material for you to make your own decisions.

A lot of stuff? Sure. But it goes to the point that Obama not only has positions on the issues, but they are detailed and comprehensive.

I don't expect you to agree with those positions (there are quite a few that I disagree with, or find to be pie-in-the-sky), but you can't say Obama is a good speaker only and refuse to look at the details he provides.
 
30sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 09:59
Sure it is and as soon as you guys detail positions from non biased 3rd party sources in some format that's just a wee bit easier on the eyes than a 60 page pdf doc, holler.

Gee Box...we're only talking here about electing the person who will be ultimately responsible for leading the worlds only remaining "superpower" for the next 4 years anyway. I mean, its no big deal. S maybe you're right, it probably should be less inconvenient for you to educate yourself about the choices. Afterall, this decision we're soon to be making, is pretty much not worth much effort on our part...right?
 
31walk
ID: 381351512
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:11
I don't understand why the onus is on Obama supporters to provide user-friendly, yet specific details of Obama's positions. It's a no-win situation: "give me information, no that's too long, no that's biased, but he's not specific or detailed, no one on Obama's side knows his policies, no one has linked to me (me, me, me, oh entitled me!) exactly what I want. If it's a sincere search for information, we all have googling and research skills. I think it's less that than more of a test for Obama supporters to prove they know who their candidate is and to prove that he has some substantive views on issues.

Where is this scrutiny for all other candidates? Ever?
 
32Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:14
Afterall, this decision we're soon to be making, is pretty much not worth much effort on our part...right? - Sarge

Have you read the PDF, Sarge?
 
33sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:16
It isnt scrutiny walk. Its an empty "challenge" by one with no substance of their own anymore. He's essentially challenging us to fill the "hole" he says exists within our own knowledge-base and then to prove that we have done so. Of course, he will maintain the position (claim/allegation?), that this same hole still exists.
 
34Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:17
I don't understand why the onus is on Obama supporters - Walk, PD

You think the onus is on non Obama supporters to provide concrete reasons to vote for Obama?
 
35sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:17
Gee Boldy...I'm sorry I didnt answer your specific query. Yes I have. Now, are you planning on challenging each and every Obama supports with that question? I'd have to think it would take far less of your own time, to READ THE GDDMN THING FOR YOURSELF.
 
36Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:20
sarge, I have to sign with Boldy. You are being ridiculous.

Why should he have to read the 60 page pdf? Why can't you spoon feed all the information to him? And when you refuse to do so why can't he tell you how Obama has no positions and only advocates "change"?

 
37Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:20
If it's so asy to do so, then please twitch yer pinky and disprove it and we can move on.

No, 'how dare you ask' does not constitute proof.


In researching some of the most virulently anti-Obama websites in search of "truth," we can come to several concrete conclusions as to some of the claims about Obama.

Prove Obama's second Father wasn't a radical Muslim

The only place I could find this claim is in this widely dispursed e-mail

His mother then married Lolo Seotoro, a RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia.

Seeking any type of supporting evidence, I found this from Obama-hater Daniel Pipes.

About Obama’s step-father, Lolo Soetoro and his religiosity, Barker writes:

In their first neighborhood, Obama occasionally followed his stepfather to the mosque for Friday prayers, a few neighbors said. But Soetoro usually was too busy working, first for the Indonesian army and later for a Western oil company. “Sometimes Lolo went to the mosque to pray, but he rarely socialized with people,” said Fermina Katarina Sinaga, Obama’s 3rd-grade teacher at the Catholic school, who lived near the family. “Rarely, Barry [a nickname for Barack] went to the mosque with Lolo.”

Barker learned from his friends and family that Lolo Soetoro, who died in 1987, was “much more of a free spirit than a devout Muslim” and “hardly the image of a pious Muslim.”


This is from the Obama file from a website called

Freedom's Enemies, which has done extensive background work on Obama.

Obama's mother marries Lolo Soetoro Mangunharjo, who is an official of the Director General's office in the TNI Topography division of the Indonesian Army and later an oil company executive.

Lolo Soetoro, a Muslim, promptly moves his new family to Jakarta, Indonesia, the worlds most populous Muslim country.

Subsequently, Lolo and Anna will have one daughter, Obama's step-sister Maya Soetoro-Ng. It is she who places Obama in Jakarta, Indonesia, from 1968 through 1973.

In Obama's account of this move, he states his mother was shocked to discover how her new husband reverted to chauvinist Indonesian ways as soon as he left America and that Indonesia was a nasty right-wing dictatorship (although the latter doesn’t jibe with her spending much of the rest of her life in that country).


Absolutely nowhere can one find corroboration of the RADICAL Muslim claim, assuming RADICAL to mean Muslims who believe that acts of terrorism are legitimate means to advance an agenda of Sharia law and armed confrontation with the West and those Muslims who deal with the West. There's not even anything to be found that Seotoro approved of Muslim terrorist acts against Israel. So the claim that Obama's stepfather was a RADICAL Muslim is unsupportable, even by Obama's most hateful critics. It appears that Seotoro wasn't even much of a devout Muslim at all.

Next claim from the e-mail:

Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi school in Jakarta.

A lie that has been exposed by everyone. Even Obama-haters admit that the school was a public school with no religious agenda other than a requirement that all students attend a couple hours of religious classes a week, including the Christian, Hindu and Buddhist students.

Next lie:

..when he was worn into office he DID NOT use the Holy Bible, but instead the Koran

A lie. Just a complete lie. Get a clue, Baldwin.
I'll believe your sincerity in finding out about Obama when you candidly admit that these outright lies not only insult the intelligence of anyone who can do a google search, but are a conscious effort to distort reality. You should join the Clinton campaign.

 
38walk
ID: 381351512
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:27
Agreed #33, sarge33rd. Thanks for the clarification.
 
39walk
ID: 381351512
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:29
#34. No, I don't. I think you raised the question that you wanted more information...a lot was provided here that you have in some respects, discounted or disregarded. In that event, you have the skills to find the information to which you seek yourself. Then, you should vote based on your beliefs and preferences.
 
40sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:32
roflmao at 36.....nice broad-side farn. :)
 
41walk
ID: 381351512
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:34
Faaaaaaaaaaaaarn. Give him a high chair with that spoon, too.
 
42Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:40
Such a burden to accurately describe your man. You would think I was asking for the moon.

Usually candidates are happy to pose with their family for some reason.
 
43sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:42
Still with the 7 yr olds schtick heh Boldy?


Why?...


Why?....


Why?.....


Why?......



Its past being REALLY old, you know?
 
45Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:52
His comment about keeping guns out of inner cities is a little frightening. Not all people in inner cities are bad people, just bad circumstances. You would think Obama, above all other candidates, would know the dangers of stereotyping

Oh my goodness. What in the world makes you think his preference for keeping firearms out of large cities has anything to do with stereotyping? I've espoused the same opinion many times over the years at this forum and through all the opposition I've encountered, no one has ever accused me of stereotyping big city folks as "bad people" who are unworthy of responsibly handling firearms. I sincerely doubt that this is the reasoning behind Obama's position.


...that doesn't stop him from trying to take guns away from poor people.

Is that an accusation? That's from pretty far out in left field. On what do you base this? Further, I'll just note that a quick scan suggests that Obama's positions on gun control are no more stringent than that of Rudy Giulianni's, a man you unabashedly supported for president until his front-runner status fell into jeopardy, and who you never once in this forum questioned over gun rights issues.
 
46Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:53
Asking you to think is indeed asking too much, Sarge. Assuming the lowest common denominators camping here haven't driven off all the thinkers, we will carry on thinking without you keeping up, Sarge, as we have all these years.
 
47Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 10:57
Is a demand for proof that Obama's stepfather wasn't a radical Islamist and therefore Obama a threat to national security an example of how you "carry on thinking"?
 
48Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 11:03
One thing I've been digging for some info on is Obama's role in IL state welfare reform during his time in the state legislature. Presumably, Boxman and Baldwin should know at least a little something about the measure since I'm talking about their home state.

Anything to offer, fellas?
 
49Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 11:09
I'm not ignoring you but rather I'll be quite busy for the next 30 hours and quite possibly dead to the world for a good number of hours thereafter.
 
50Tree
ID: 59159166
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 11:20
Such a burden to accurately describe your man. You would think I was asking for the moon.

no one thinks that. you asked for his stance. you were provided his stance on the issues. you chose not to read it, because it was too long.

you got it backwards. you would think WE were asking for the moon, when all we did was provide you with the information you requested.

you even have people breaking down some of Obama's stances, and still, it means nothing to you. we're not there yet, but we are darn close to this:
 
52Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 11:21
My son is in 4th grade, will be 10 next month.
This is the same age and class Obama was when he attended public school in Jakarta.

The public school my son attends is 90% Mormon. On Mondays, he attends scouts at the local LDS ward. A week ago Saturday, we attended a scouts' banquet at the church. I brought the dinner rolls.

Relevance?

Maybe someday my son wants to run for national office. Maybe some hack bigot blogger will distribute an e-mail saying Kyle's father was a RADICAL Mormon and Kyle attended a RADICAL Mormon school where he was forced to learn the Book of Mormon. Maybe they'll outright lie and say he refused to take his oath of office in the Holy Bible, preferring the Book of Mormon.

Maybe Baldwin's son wants to run for national office someday. Maybe some hack bigot blogger will say that his son's father was a RADICAL Jehovah's Witness, another religion that's widely disparaged and insulted by mainstream Christian evangelists.

Nine year old boys could care less about religious doctrine and dogma. If they are devout, it's probably an attempt to please devout parents, rather than personal conviction.
My daughter joined the LDS church when she was 10, not because of any revelation, but that 90% of her peers were LDS. She still attends Young Women's and plays Church basketball, but never attends church and has never cracked the Book of Mormon or Doctrines and Covenants.

The real Obama? Is it any suprise that he's had longstanding issues of self-identity given his abandonment by his birth father, birth mother and step-father? If anything, the real Obama is someone who overcame an incredibly weak family support system through experience and, ultimately, a realization for the need for self-discipline to rise into an Ivy League education and a political career that has him in position to be President of the United States.

Disagree with his politics, but respect him for his accomplishments instead of blatantly lying about aspects of his childhood which he had absolutely no control of anyway.

 
53Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 11:21
Enough with the nonsense, Tree. Please.
 
54walk
ID: 301192421
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 12:03
PV, my kid is in 4th grade and turns 10 next month, too!

Boldwin: Why are you asking us "to accurately describe our man," as you put it? What is your point, specifically? That you cannot find such information on your own, that the links provided are not useful to you, that the links provided are too time-consuming for you and you'd like us to do you the favor and summarizing them for you, or just to test us and Obama to see what he and we are all about? thanks.
 
55Tree
ID: 59159166
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 12:16
Enough with the nonsense, Tree. Please.

sorry MITH. you don't find this frustrating that someone asks for info, then refuses to accept it straight from the source, then accuses those of...well god, whatever he's babbling on about...
 
56sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 12:18
careful both of you, lest we have to kick each of you out of our clicque. ;)
 
57Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 12:36
Tree

How about if I politely and respectfully request that you delete those two posts?
 
58Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 13:50
Mith: What in the world makes you think his preference for keeping firearms out of large cities has anything to do with stereotyping?

His words were that he wants to keep guns out of the inner city. You expanded it on your to include "large cities". Why take guns out of inner cities? What did the law abiding citizen do to warrant the loss of his 2nd Amendment rights? If anything, the good folks in the bad neighborhoods are the ones that should be armed to protect against the hoodlums.

One thing I've been digging for some info on is Obama's role in IL state welfare reform during his time in the state legislature. Presumably, Boxman and Baldwin should know at least a little something about the measure since I'm talking about their home state.

Anything to offer, fellas?


Here's something that might help you.

On The Issues Dot Org
 
59Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 14:05
Boxman

Large cities, inner cities, whatever. My bad. My point is that calling it an issue of stereotyping is to wildly miss the point. It's about the circumstances of life, not any classification of the people who reside there. That's all I'm getting at.
 
60Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 14:08
Boxman
I don't see anything in your link about the Welfare Reform bill he sponsored in the IL State legislature. That's what I'm asking about.
 
61Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 14:08
And I sure do wish I didn't have to scroll right to read a post in this thread.
 
62Tree
ID: 511251614
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 15:35
MITH - apologies if my post is the one screwing you up that way. i cannot stand when someone does that, which is why i made sure that it wasn't too wide. i guess you're on a smaller screen or something?

i have no problem deleting those posts, as per your request. unfortunately, i'm not at home, and won't be until monday evening, so i don't believe i can delete.

if Guru or anyone can remove the individual posts that are screwing things up, i have no issue with that.

and as for the irony you mentioned in the other thread, i am fully aware. i felt it necesssary to sink down to that level.
 
63Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 15:48
More on what the right might or might not be willing to paint Obama as:

Red-Commie-Bootlicking-Scum Perhaps?


And for those of you who are weakwilled enough to actually entertain the fantasy.
 
64Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 16:05
Thanks to whoever deleted 51 and shrinked the image in post 50 to a size that isn't obnoxious.
 
65sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 17:19
lol MITH, and from your 2nd link, with FOX NEWS as the source no less:

"The office featured in this video is funded by volunteers of the Barack Obama Campaign and is not an official headquarters for his campaign."


Guess I gotta give kudos to Fox News for that one.
 
66Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Sun, Feb 17, 2008, 08:06
Well, to be clear, usually when we complain about biased reporting at FOX News I think most of us refer specifically to FOX News Channel.

That link cites Houston Fox News, by which they mean KRIV, the local FOX affiliate in Houston, local channel 26.
 
67walk
ID: 381351512
Sun, Feb 17, 2008, 10:36
Obama Adding Detail to Oratory
 
68Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Feb 17, 2008, 20:47
The Great Leader's favorite vote is apparently "present".

The Great Leader Votes "Present"

In 1999, Barack Obama was faced with a difficult vote in the Illinois legislature — to support a bill that would let some juveniles be tried as adults, a position that risked drawing fire from African-Americans, or to oppose it, possibly undermining his image as a tough-on-crime moderate.

In the end, Mr. Obama chose neither to vote for nor against the bill. He voted “present,” effectively sidestepping the issue, an option he invoked nearly 130 times as a state senator.

Sometimes the “present’ votes were in line with instructions from Democratic leaders or because he objected to provisions in bills that he might otherwise support. At other times, Mr. Obama voted present on questions that had overwhelming bipartisan support. In at least a few cases, the issue was politically sensitive.


And how will you handle this crisis Mr.
President? "I am present." Yes Great Leader.

The Great Leader's Senate Voting Record

Maybe it's just me, but The Great Leader seeeeeemed to not be voting a lot. Too busy currying Soros' favor perhaps?

The no vote strategy seems to have carried over from his days as a state senator. Could he afford to be this indecisive as President? I suppose so if he's already bought and sold.
 
69Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Sun, Feb 17, 2008, 20:57
You believe his 'present' legislative votes suggest he will be an indecisive executive?
 
70Perm Dude
ID: 581331621
Sun, Feb 17, 2008, 21:02
The subtelty of political voting is beyond them, MITH. This is just a thread for them to uncritically dump their Obama slams that other people told them about.

They can't even bring themselves to use his name. And they say that the Left is the one full of "hate speech."
 
71Perm Dude
ID: 581331621
Sun, Feb 17, 2008, 22:17
"The Hopemonger"
 
72Tree
ID: 511251614
Sun, Feb 17, 2008, 22:33
this thread is definitely filled with rich stuff. i expect the soros thread to be similar.

we've had 16 years of anger, venom, and hatred coming from many of those on the far right. why should now be any different?

a candidate that offers even a glimpse of hope? f*ck that, HATE is easier.

personally, i think they're just bitter that they won't get to send the attack dogs after Hilary...
 
73sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 08:14
From your link in 67 Walk; this is about as concise a way of defining my support of Obama as I have seen. (And I doubt I could say it any better):

Representative David R. Obey, Democrat of Wisconsin, is chairman of the House Appropriations Committee and respected on Capitol Hill as being among the small share of lawmakers intricately familiar with the federal budget. Mr. Obey said he was more than comfortable with Mr. Obama’s grasp of substance.

“If I weren’t, I wouldn’t have endorsed him,” Mr. Obey said Saturday. “You can’t make much headway on substance until you have somebody who can break through the rancorous atmosphere, build new alliances and cut through old barriers.”



THAT, is precisely what I see Obama bringing to the table. And that, IMHO, is precisely what this nation is presently in dire need of.
 
74walk
ID: 381351512
Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 09:50
Box, #68, the present vote in Illinois state legislature is different than what you think. I'll try to post some links so that you know what it's used for (as opposed to the more intuitive thought that it means "not interested" etc.). It's an inaccurate portrayal of Obama and the Illinois State Legislative process.
 
75walk
ID: 381351512
Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 09:52
Present piece

Another present piece
 
76walk
ID: 381351512
Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 10:00
Box, I also realize one of the pieces to which I linked is written by an Obama supporter. I think it's more about the process though, and not about what one thinks voting "present" means.

sarge #73, my thoughts, too.

On the Chris Matthews show yesterday, which featured a roundtable poli discussion, someone brought up the fear that Obama, being so young and unseasoned in world affairs, could make mistakes of the magnitude that JFK made with the bay of pigs. No one could really disagree, but they did add that he seems to seek out views of others, and Sullivan added on Maher's roundtable that Obama has a has a good deal of poise. These leadership qualities are very important. I feel that where we are right now, with much anti-american sentiment, rancor in Congress, and the emergence of China, India, and Russia, we need someone who can build bridges. I think others feel that we need a tougher cookie who can stand up to China, Putin and the other party...Hillary or McCain. The "let's rise above it" thinking of the Obama-ites could be seen as naive from the more established based of the other candidates. I dunno.
 
77steve houpt
ID: 451161019
Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 10:11
walk - even though I am not an an Obama supporter [but do support him before Clinton], this present is also being used by democrats [I think Hillary has] and sometimes intentionally to lead you to believe it was in the US Senate [I'm sure I heard Bill Press say something about Obama's Present votes in the [US] Senate - may have been a slip of the tounge]. If he didn't say US Senate, he said Senator Obama's Senate votes - did not say ILL Senate.

I had also heard an explanation that enough present votes does not kill a bill, just sends it back and keeps it from passing. A 'negative' majority kills a bill and it cannot be brought back up in same session. Will have to look for that. A Present vote, keeps it from passing, but it can be 'remodified' in committee and come back to the ILL Senate floor [I think].
 
78Perm Dude
ID: 2138188
Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 11:08
The present vote is about the same as an "abstain" vote. It almost always comes up exclusively as a parliamentary procedure, and it is difficult to lump them all together since there are different reasons for them.

NPR did a pretty straightforward piece on this question, opening with Clinton's clearly false charge that a "present" vote is a "maybe" vote.
 
79Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 09:03
Hilzoy on the Empty Shirt charge.
 
80Perm Dude
ID: 017218
Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 10:24
Hilzoy with another good one, this one probing the current Clinton finances. And it isn't looking too good.
 
81Madman
ID: 230542010
Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 14:21
sarge73 -- “You can’t make much headway on substance until you have somebody who can break through the rancorous atmosphere, build new alliances and cut through old barriers.”

Perhaps. We have three strategies for the future presented to us, it would appear.

1) HRC -- Dems will be in the majority, I know how to get our agenda through. This is evidenced by my years in the WH + years of moderated / matured relationships in the Senate.

2) BHO -- I'll inspire us to unite as a people by appealing to our natural idealism. My policy proposals will represent a return to traditional liberalism -- to an expressed shared interest via government. These proposals will be accepted both because of a Dem Congress and because I will treat the opposition with respect. Republicans will therefore either unite behind me, or be irrelevantly viewed as kooks.

3) J?M -- I'll call us to unite by appealing to our integrity and honor. I'll offer (sort of) policy olive branches on global warming, campaign finance, immigration, stem cell research, ANWAR, etc. Through these renewed bonds, we may or may not survive our remaining fiscal and philosophical differences.

(2) and (3) are interesting mirror images. JM doesn't have the rhetorical ability of BHO. But he offers direct policy compromises and shifts ... to the extent he succeeds in redefining Conservatism versus being redefined by it. BHO offers rhetorical compromise without the policy compromises (aside from the mortgage crisis and mandatory purchase of health insurance).

Going to be a very interesting landscape for the election ... all of which will also be significantly colored by Iraq, on which both candidates -- I predict -- will be forced to compromise on if they are elected, but will issue campaign rhetoric suggesting that they will not compromise one whit.
 
82Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 22:46
Madman
mandatory purchase of health insurance

Obama does not call for this. That feature is HRC's exclusive, at least among the remaining frontrunners.
 
83Perm Dude
ID: 017218
Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 22:54
That's right. In fact, that is where Krugman, Clinton, et al try to say that they are talking about "universal" health care but Obama is not, and therefore they say that his plan lacks the details of how he will pay for it (of course Clinton's plan lacks the details of the enforcement, though she said she hasn't ruled out wage garnishment).

Obama wants to make health care available but will not force people to purchase health care if they do not want to. Clinton's plan is to force everyone to buy health insurance, through government subsidy, in order to get the plan to pay for itself.
 
84Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 23:00
PD - not sure if you noticed that I replied to your last email from our discussion earlier today.
 
85Perm Dude
ID: 017218
Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 23:03
Yeah, still mulling it over.
 
87Madman
ID: 14139157
Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 23:16
I'll throw this in here, just like I threw it in the HRC '08 thread ... a question for the mandatory to purchase insurance crowd ...

Should we require all younger people to purchase health insurance and NOT also mandate our seniors to buy into health insurance?

Why aren't people talking about the lack of healthcare coverage in the senior population? 5% don't have any physician coverage, slightly more than that don't have any drug coverage ... and those percentages are of those eligible for Medicare Part A, which isn't a universal benefit (close to universal, but it's not universal).

And, of course, those benefits are widely viewed as insufficient; they don't cap the "insured's" risk, for example. To accomplish this, you have to go to the private Medicare Supplement market ... I don't know how many seniors fail to have a med-supp product, but I'd guess it could be as high as 20% or more.

Just strange I never hear anything about the immorality (or inefficiency) of letting our seniors go without purchasing health insurance.
 
88Madman
ID: 14139157
Thu, Feb 21, 2008, 23:17
MITH 82 -- Exactly. Republicans also don't want to create mandatory solutions. In that sense, Obama has compromised toward the middle, away from the Democratic base. Which was why I noted it as an exception; I can find very few instances where his policy ideas are an attempt to unify America. (I'm not sure the lack-of-a-mandate for HI purchase is that far of a compromise, but it does represent a willingness to buck Democratic orthodoxy).

The other notable exception is with the bits I can gather about his ideas for the mortgage crisis. Seems like a very Republican approach, for the most part, aside from the ramp-up in federal spending. Clinton's approach is the only real way to "fix" the current mess for most people. Of course, her approach -- in my mind and in the mind of many Republicans -- will just make our long-term problems worse. Obama mostly shirks the problems on the ground in favor of mildly sounder economic policies, again moving toward the "middle" of the political spectrum. In my opinion. But it's been awhile since I've reviewed him on the subject, and I've heard that his stump speeches may be addressing new initiatives.
 
89Astade
ID: 5935164
Fri, Feb 22, 2008, 23:30
I have not had the time to verify these records, but they relate to this discussion:
Obama's Senate Record
 
90Perm Dude
ID: 7144238
Sat, Feb 23, 2008, 10:46
Outrage! Obama is an outrage I tell you! Er, maybe not. But I'm still outraged!
 
91sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Sat, Feb 23, 2008, 10:54
But besides that, consider two things. First, the bloggers I quoted above are accusing this unnamed Captain of lying. It's not exactly clear why they think the Captain lied, or why he would go on lying to various TV networks, but that's what Curt, Rusty, and the gang seem to think. And why do they think this? For the most part*, they cite claims like this (from Ace): "Milbloggers say the platoon is the basic organic unit of the army, and troops are never picked out of a platoon to serve elsewhere", or this (from one of Steve Spruiell's correspondents): "units as small as platoons are not pulled apart like that." That is: claims that the sorts of things the Captain described never happen.



FALSE! The basic "element", is the Squad. The Platopon in turn, is comprised generally, of 4 Squads. It is not at all unusual, for a Platoon to find itself fragmented, with a Squad or 2 detached for duty elsewhere. The Army does try and minimize it, but it happens.

4249 MP Detachment US Army Reserves in 1991 Desert Shield/Desert Storm. We had 2 Squads detached to Norfolk, VA to work Port Security at the civilain port there (My Squad was one of them) and the other 2 Squads were sent to work the Port of Baltimore, MD. We were later reunited and worked the Port of Jacksonville, FL before being relocated at Wilimington, NC.
 
92Madman
ID: 14139157
Sun, Feb 24, 2008, 00:02
I don't see what the kerfluffle is about the Obama - captain story. You'll find those stories in all wars we have ever been in. Military bureaucracy has its problems, and Obama is using one to fill some time in a debate.

The other possible interpretation -- that the Democratic congress isn't sufficiently funding the troops -- seems absurd on its face both because of the funding they've approved and because Obama wouldn't be attacking himself, surely.

Just doesn't seem like a big deal, either way, especially once you hear that the captain wasn't supporting Obama's assertion that they had to attack Taliban just to get the weapons in theatre.

(BTW, talking to the captain does NOT verify the story; to verify a story, you need external verification of the facts of the case ... why the soldiers were gone, etc. Sullivan's blog seems exceptionally weak anymore from the links I've seen on these boards lately)
 
93Perm Dude
ID: 431162321
Sun, Feb 24, 2008, 09:37
My link in #90 was about the fake outrage on the Right about the story. It had nothing to do, really, with the verifiability of the story (which seems believable). Obama was more than filling time with the story, however. One of his points about Iraq is that it literally takes support away from our other military obligations, leaving us less prepared.

I do agree about the Captain, however, that one needs an outside source to completely verify the story (though it appears the Pentagon is more interested in calling the Captain to the carpet on the story, rather than trying to figure out why their own troops feel the need to use Taliban weaponry.)
 
94Boxman
ID: 571114225
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 06:15
Louis Farrakhan said that presidential candidate Barack Obama is the “hope of the entire world”

“This young man is the hope of the entire world that America will change and be made better,” he said. “This young man is capturing audiences of black and brown and red and yellow. If you look at Barack Obama’s audiences and look at the effect of his words, those people are being transformed.”

Farrakhan compared Obama to the religion’s founder, Fard Muhammad, who also had a white mother and black father.
“A black man with a white mother became a savior to us,” he told the crowd of mostly followers. “A black man with a white mother could turn out to be one who can lift America from her fall.”


I guess The Great Leader just got promoted from President to Savior of Mankind?
 
95Tree
ID: 27133255
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 06:37
seeing more and more "fears" about Obama's perceived lack of political experience, i started doing some research on the political experience of other presidents, and the results were fairly surprising to me - it seems such a lack of experience being a political liability is either a new phenomenon, or a non-issue.

FDR was the governor of NY for 3 years before becoming one of the greatest presidents our nation has ever known...

Abe Lincoln was a Member of the U.S. House of Representatives for LESS THAT TWO YEARS before becoming the president who ended the U.S. Civil War and made the Emancipation Proclaimation. Oh, and hi, look at me, i'm on mount rushmore!

Teddy Roosevelt was the Governor of NY for LESS THAN ONE YEAR and the Vice President of the U.S. for SIX MONTHS and 10 days before becoming the president who heavily promoted the conservation movement, helped the U.S. gain control of the Panama Canal, and was the FIRST AMERICAN to win a Nobel Prize. Oh yea, and there's that Mount Rushmore thing too.

Woodrow Wilson won a Nobel Prize; passed major legislation including the Federal Trade Commission, the Clayton Antitrust Act, the Underwood Tariff, the Federal Farm Loan Act and the Federal Reserve System; created the League of Nations and helped draft the Treaty of Versailles; and all with less than 2 years as the governor of New Jersey being his only political experience.

Eisenhower had ZERO political experience, and he did alright in ending the Korean War, launching the U.S. into the space race, and implementing our current Interstate system.

and so on. Obama had least has spent 7 years in the Illinois State senate. While it's a smaller scale, it's still political experience...and more than the 5 years our current president spent as a governor of Texas...
 
96CanadianHack
ID: 31645103
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 07:03
Tree

Perhaps things were different 50 or 100 or more years ago during the times you cite those examples.
 
98Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 07:42
The Great Leader

Is that a deliberate reference to Kim Il Sung or were you not aware that moniker was already taken by someone in recent history who the world recognizes by that name?

If it is a Kim Il Sung reference, I'm pretty sure you could have come up with a better historical figure to mock Obama via comparison.

But rather than coin and rely heavily a new catch phrase to mock Barak Obama every time someone speaks about him in any kind of flowery language, why not try to find something of substance?

Your use of that moniker reminds me of the social politics of teenage girls; to this point all you've established is that it really annoys you that he strikes such a cord in people (which, to my knowledge and by the way, isn't particularly reflective of the late Kim Il Sung).
 
99Tree
ID: 3533298
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 08:45
Perhaps things were different 50 or 100 or more years ago during the times you cite those examples.

I suppose so. none of those guys were presidents during any wars or anything...oh...wait...never mind.
 
100CanadianHack
ID: 31645103
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 09:11
Perhaps things were different 50 or 100 or more years ago during the times you cite those examples.

I suppose so. none of those guys were presidents during any wars or anything...oh...wait...never mind.

And perhaps thats not why its a different time. Inprovements in technology - in transportation and telecommunications etc - have made the world a smaller place. There are more interconnections in how the world works today and if problems occur the problem is on your doorstep a whole lot faster than it ever was in the past.

You need a president who is as intelligent, hard working, experienced etc as possible. You throw one or two of those out and you get George W Bush.

That is not to say Obama cannot be a good president, but the idea of proudly arguing that experience doesn't matter to be president is extremely stupid. Experience is very important. If you have to learn on the job people get killed, serious problems occur (see Bush again as an example).
 
101sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 09:19
see post 34

In the past 55 years, 10 men have occupied the WH. 6 Rep, and 4 Dem. Of those 10, 3 Rep and 2 Dems, had held NO Federal level office prior to becoming the President. Times, havent changed that much.
 
102Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 09:43
Sarge makes a great point. If the main difference between the modern Presidency and the more effective Presidencies of some of history's less experienced executives is the the way transportation and the exchange of information have changed commerce and foreign policy then I fail to see how a mere governorship prepares an executive for the presidency. CanadianHack, is your argument that only established Washington fixtures bring qualified experience to the table?
 
103Madman
ID: 230542010
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 09:45
Sarge -- it isn't "federal" experience, exclusively, that is discussed. It is also executive experience. Reagan, Carter, Bush II, Clinton all had executive experience. Most even had extensive executive experience, with the exception of Carter. Are you arguing that Obama would be most like Carter?

Regardless, the argument over experience is just a proxy for judgment. I think a vote for Obama is a vote to overturn decades worth of foreign policy orthodoxy. His advisors are mostly the dovish Clinton types. His stated policy prescriptions seem to affront the orthodoxy ... keeping unilateral attacks on Pakistan on the table, meeting without preconditions Castro, Ah*&# from Iran, Chavez (giving them the PR in hopes that they will change their perspective on us), etc. are evidence for that.

Perhaps the foreign policy establishment needs to change. Obama would definitely shake things up. I'd feel more comfortable if he addressed the full slate of risks that are associated with his strategies, however. Because he doesn't have the experience or background, I don't think it is wise to give him the benefit of the doubt for his foreign policy views.
 
104Perm Dude
ID: 56159258
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 09:59
Given the foreign policy disasters, I think Americans feel the opposite, Madman. This current administration has put to the lie that "experience" and "good advisors" should be weighed too heavily.

Also, the whole Pakistan argument really befuddles me. The idea that we should not act on (1) actionable intelligence when (2) Pakistan refuses to do so after (3) being told about it makes no sense to me, frankly.
 
105CanadianHack
ID: 31645103
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 10:03
CanadianHack, is your argument that only established Washington fixtures bring qualified experience to the table?

No. My argument is the president should be the best available candidate. A lack of experience is a negative. Thats not to say that it cannot be overcome by other strengths.

The way Tree and Sarge are proudly boasting about how few presidents have experience in the past is ridiculous. Its not something to be proud of. If anything it shows that the way the US choses its presidents has flaws.

Who do you pick for your fantasy baseball team given both are available? The proven star or the unproven one who might become a star?
 
106Perm Dude
ID: 56159258
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 10:14
I agree with CH that the lack of experience (as Madman clarifies, executive experience) is a negative. But I also think that his campaign running experience counts as well. And for Obama (facing Billary & Alan Keyes), how he campaigns reveals much about his executive tendencies.
 
107CanadianHack
ID: 31645103
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 10:40
PermDude

The way somebody campaigns reveals the way they campaign. At best it indirectly gives a poor look at how he might act as President.

I think it is interesting how much this cultural phenomenon of Barock Obama has grown. We have usually rational posters boasting about how little experience one needs to be President. We have another usually rational poster trying to substitute campaigning for political office for experience.

I am not saying Obama would be a bad President because he lacks experience. But compared to Hillary or McCain on the issue of experience (and that issue alone) he is a distant third.
 
108Tree
ID: 3533298
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 10:40
The way Tree and Sarge are proudly boasting about how few presidents have experience in the past is ridiculous.

actually, what i posted (and not boasted) was that some of the presidents that are widely considered among the GREATEST we have had, had relatively experience.

why is that ridiculous?

Who do you pick for your fantasy baseball team given both are available? The proven star or the unproven one who might become a star?

Barry Bonds or Nick Markakis. Which one are YOU drafting?
 
109Perm Dude
ID: 56159258
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 10:54
We have another usually rational poster trying to substitute campaigning for political office for experience.

No, I didn't. What I said was that running a campaign the way Obama has (in fact, two tough campaigns) is a positive. That's all. I'm not substituting anything.

You scoff at those who dismiss his lack of experience, yet dismiss running a campaign (which is different from campaigning) as though it has nothing to do with determining how a person will do once they reach a political office. Interesting.
 
110CanadianHack
ID: 31645103
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 10:59
Tree

Your post is at best poorly researched. By cherry picking federal experience you leave out many terms as a state senator or representative (Lincoln, FDR), time overseeing armed forces (Eisenhower, T and F Roosevelt). You leave out time served as vice president (T. Roosevelt) or campaigning unsuccessfully for vice president (FDR).

Barry Bonds or Nick Markakis. Which one are YOU drafting?

Neither I pick Alex Rodriguez. And your cherry picking some example like that as though it scores points in a debate is at best immature.

If you don't care if your president has experience that is your choice to make at your own peril.
 
111CanadianHack
ID: 31645103
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 11:01
What I said was that running a campaign the way Obama has (in fact, two tough campaigns) is a positive.

It is better than nothing.

But the campaign against Alan Keyes was definitely not a tough one. Obama took 70% of the vote. Keyes too 27%. It was a blowout.
 
112Perm Dude
ID: 56159258
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 11:16
It was nasty. The fact that Illinois voters rejected Keyes in numbers like they are now rejecting Bush doesn't mean that Obama didn't reveal his mettle.
 
113sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 11:28
Like Tree, I don't consider my post to be "boasting". Simply pointing out the facts. When I hear Republicans deride Obama BECAUSE of a "lack of Federal experience", I ask them then how they justified voting for Reagan for ex. It isn't a boast CH, it simply trying to get others to realize that they don't object to Obama because he lacks experience, they object to him because he's a Democrat, and they (the voters in question) lack objectivity.
 
114Madman
ID: 230542010
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 11:53
I ask them then how they justified voting for Reagan for ex. ... Reagan had spent years stumping and articulating a foreign policy vision. What Republicans were buying was that vision, along with the understanding that there were likely to be problems caused by naivete. Both items turned out to be legit -- he followed through on his foreign policy vision, and he did a few screw ups because of lack of foreign acumen (Lebanon, Bitburg, etc.)

Given the foreign policy disasters, I think Americans feel the opposite, Madman. This current administration has put to the lie that "experience" and "good advisors" should be weighed too heavily. That's a fair position. But I do disagree. I distinctly prefer Holbrooke (with HRC) to Brzezinski and Lake, for example (with Obama). I'd have to think about the Bush advisors you called experienced. 9/11 threw the team a curve; not sure what previously expressed foreign policy acumen and experience you are referring to there, aside from the obvious with Cheney. Powell had a lot of respect in the military community, but his experience for that job pales versus a Holbrooke.

I argue that campaigns reveal problems more than they show capability. For example, does Obama's "Kansas" strategy reveal startling acumen cutting against conventional wisdom? Or was he playing the main hand he had dealt? I'm guessing more of the latter.

Clinton's campaign reveals, IMO, that she has true managerial problems. A lack of a full slate of delates in PA, the Hallmark satellite cash fiasco, the lack of a post 2/5 strategy, etc.

McCain's campaign also troubles me, just to be honest. Their first ramp-up was arguably mismanaged. His 2000 campaign wasn't super efficient. He's relied on a select inner-circle that itself has its fracturing problems. This reveals that he can handle diverse viewpoints among his advisors ... but also that he can be so loyal that he fails to act until things get into the tanker (summer / fall). It also doesn't suggest an ability to handle a larger network. We'll see if the small group can be effective throughout the general.

Running a successful campaign is a pre-requesite to being a good president. I'm not sure I'd read much more into it than that, however.
 
115Madman
ID: 230542010
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 12:33
The rightwing blogosphere debunks the latest attack by HRC on Obama ... I especially liked the links to Hilzoy and Drudge that show that Bush is a secret Vietnamese and that HRC herself is Muslim.
 
116Perm Dude
ID: 56159258
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 12:39
McCain's campaign also troubles me, just to be honest

I'm only troubled by McCain's economic advisors. He's a guy who admits he doesn't know economic matters very well, but he appears to have surrounded himself by advisors who are on opposite sides of many economic issues. This would be a plus for a candidate strong in economics (who can synthesize things, or see strong and weak points in the different sides), but McCain doesn't have the background to do it.
 
117CanadianHack
ID: 21937272
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 12:48
Simply pointing out the facts. When I hear Republicans deride Obama BECAUSE of a "lack of Federal experience", I ask them then how they justified voting for Reagan for ex. It isn't a boast CH, it simply trying to get others to realize that they don't object to Obama because he lacks experience, they object to him because he's a Democrat, and they (the voters in question) lack objectivity.

Its true that there are some bold(win) idiots around here who would reject Jesus if he ran in the election with a D beside his name, but that is not my point.

I think Obama's positon that he wants to reach across the floor to the Republicans, while rejecting the partisanship of the recent decades is naive. The way he easily shrugs off the gains made under the Clinton presidency as partisanship makes it appear that he is too inexperienced to know how important they were, how hard fught they were and how quickly Republicans would take them back if they could (I hope I am wrong on this point).

There is a large right wing base of the Republican party (we see some on these boards) who will stop at nothing to destroy Obama. They are the same people who investigate a land deal and wind up impeaching the president for a blow job. Obama cannot reach out to them successfully. If he tries he will be hurt. Their partisanship cannot be overcome.

Hillary Clinton is a strong candidate. She has a far better understanding of this. She has a far better understanding of what the important fights in the 90's were fought for. I think she would make a better president now. In a perfect world, Obama would be a vice president and be ready in the future. Hillary can win now, but it doesn't look like the direction that things are going.

Obama's lack of experience is a negative. The fact some that point this out live in a world where facts don't matter as long as the candidate has an R beside his name does not change it. In fact, the fact there are many people like that underscores how Obama is naive in thinking he can reconcile with them.
 
118Madman
ID: 230542010
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 12:52
PD ?? Who are you thinking about? McCain advisors ... There are too many people on here for me to generalize. But I will say that Feldstein, Gramm, Hassett (who we've discussed on these boards) are the typical conservative economists you'd expect to see. I'm excited to see Rosen, Taylor, and Boskin on the list. I'd like to know how influential they would be versus the first three I mentioned. But I'm not sure you'll get a lot of differences in policy. Care to elaborate?
 
119Perm Dude
ID: 56159258
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 12:55
Well, optimism has always been painted as naivity by the cynical. But I'd rather have a competant guy my political and international enemies think is naive than one who is just not very good. And America seems ready to be hopeful. Maybe America's optimism is simply naive, but it has been our biggest asset for virtually our entire time.

I don't think, for a minute, that the battles of the 90s will stop when Clinton becomes president. In fact, I think it'll hamstring her as much as it hamstrung Clinton, though she doesn't have the political skill to overcome some of it like he did. In fact, the only thing she'll have going is the idea that she can work with Republicans--which is what Obama brings to the table (and which you call naive).
 
120Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 13:02
MM
the latest attack by HRC on Obama

Does it make sense that HRC would distribute this photo with the intent to associate Obama with Islam? After the way this line has to date repeatedly failed to generate steam on the right, despite even the efforts of some of the most influential right-leaning mainstream media outlets and considering the vitriolic response from the left whenever this issue has come up, I have trouble believing HRC would think such an attack could be anything but counterproductive.

Drudge vaguely suggests the Clinton camp "circulated" the photo and he doesn't say how he obtained it. His report reads
"Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were HRC?" questioned one campaign staffer, in an email obtained by the DRUDGE REPORT.
That staffer might have a fair point if the media has passed on running that photo. Surely you remember the hubub Nancy Pelosi covering her hair under a scarf while in the Middle East last year. I don't know. I certainly wouldn't put it past the ethics of the Clinton campaign, but it doesn't make any tactical sense.
 
121Perm Dude
ID: 56159258
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 13:09
#118: Weekly Standard article on McCain's economic advisors.

I'm refreshed by McCain's honesty on his shortcomings, but hoping to overcome that through a VP choice with economic experience plus a cornucopia of Republican economic advisors who will be offering up very conflicting advice gives me a little pause, frankly.
 
122Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 13:11
optimism has always been painted as naivity by the cynical

Well said.
 
123Boxman
ID: 337352111
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 13:48
Mith: The Great Leader

Is that a deliberate reference to Kim Il Sung or were you not aware that moniker was already taken by someone in recent history who the world recognizes by that name?

If it is a Kim Il Sung reference, I'm pretty sure you could have come up with a better historical figure to mock Obama via comparison.

But rather than coin and rely heavily a new catch phrase to mock Barak Obama every time someone speaks about him in any kind of flowery language, why not try to find something of substance?


It's mocking you lefties because Obama puts you folks into a trance and makes you feeeeeeeeeeeeel good because he can talk. He's your Great Leader. He can do no wrong. If he wins the election I fully expect you, Sarge, and Tree to erect posters of Him in your dwellings and stop at them not less than 12 times daily to bow and hail The Great Leader.
 
124Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 13:53
So, despite the capitals, it isn't a reference to Kim Il Sung? By all means, mock away.
 
125Perm Dude
ID: 56159258
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 13:56
Boxman is all about mocking feelings, MITH.
 
126Madman
ID: 230542010
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 13:57
Does it make sense that HRC would distribute this photo with the intent to associate Obama with Islam?

Are you suggesting that Obama's camp is lying about the source of the photo? We know that he's been doing some stretching of the truth about HRC's record, but your suggestion bespeaks of a cynicism that I am not ready to accept of him.

But yes, it would be a stupid move if HRC actually did it. Again, I'm not impressed by HRC's rather inept campaign.

PD 112 -- I think that statement is out of context and overblown (since when do you rely on the Weekly Standard?). (a) He said he'd rely on his SecofTreasury and CofEconomic Advisors, and only then mentioned the Peterson-Kemp trio. No one in that list is qualified to give economic advice, aside from Gramm. (b) They all share fiscal constraint as an objective. I think it is more a sign of his difficulty forming economic talking points in a debate setting.

They do differ somewhat on tax policy. A McCain presidency would be academically fascinating on that dimension, but I doubt a Peterson-Kemp conflict would be the source of it.
 
127Razor
ID: 420241513
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 14:15
Boxman is past the acceptance stage of grieving. He has moved on to mocking the inevitable.
 
128Perm Dude
ID: 56159258
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 14:18
I don't really rely on them, Madman, but I try to read publications on the Right when I can. I read the blog RedState all the time, for instance, and follow links when appropriate.

Like a lot of places, most stuff on either side in tinged with intellectual, ethical, or spritual laziness. But I don't presume that people on the Right are stupid (for instance), and find many arguments to be persuasive when well written.

The WS has its problems, mostly in foreign policy (as do nearly all publications on the Right, now that this Administration made them dance their tune for 6 years and they find themselves facing the wrong way but still dancing). Domestic stuff on the Right is still very interesting to me.
 
129Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 14:35
Madman
Are you suggesting that Obama's camp is lying about the source of the photo?

No. I assume the Obama camp is citing matt drudge:
With a week to go until the Texas and Ohio primaries, stressed Clinton staffers circulated a photo over the weekend of a "dressed" Barack Obama.
From the CNN article you linked:
Barack Obama’s campaign accused Hillary Clinton’s team Monday of circulating a photo of the Illinois senator donning traditional attire
What exactly do they (Obama or Drudge) mean by 'circulating'?
 
130Madman
ID: 230542010
Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 16:30
MITH -- fair enough, although I bet Obama is citing the CNN entry I linked to rather than Drudge. Some on the right are questioning HRC's involvement in this affair, as well. Perhaps I should withhold judgment.

PD -- I read the WS, as well, usually from RCP links. The quality, IMO, depends on the author. Just surprised to see you use it as a source here.
...

optimism has always been painted as naivity by the cynical

Bay of Pigs.
 
131Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 08:55
NYDN: Obama backs off his campaign manager's comments on the photo:
Asked if he agreed with campaign manager David Plouffe's stinging rebuke of Team Clinton, Obama replied, "I think that at this stage in the campaign there are going to be dust-ups particularly at the staff level."

"Certainly, I don't think that that photograph was circulated to enhance my candidacy. I think that's fair to say," Obama said. "Do I think that it is reflective of Sen. Clinton's approach to the campaign? Probably not."

"And, so, you know, at this point, you know, my interest is just moving forward and talking about the issues that are going to be helpful to the people of Ohio," he concluded.
 
132Madman
ID: 230542010
Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 12:58
Does anyone have a good read on Obama's healthcare plan? And how much he really cares about the issue?

I'm waffling between the idea that he's just pasting together policy-wonk papers to innoculate himself so that he can get elected and do the things he wants to do (fill in that blank).

Versus his plan is a radical bite into healthcare financing couched in a center-left clothing.

For specifics, could someone answer these questions for me.

1) Why would an adult individual or mandate-exempt small employer buy or offer health insurance under his plan? Paying premiums while healthy seems like a waste of money in his plan.

2) How does he plan on transferring the wonderful provider-based efficiency gains (from electronic records) to reduced expenditures by government & private insurers ... the duplicative test effect only? Or by direct reduction of fee reimbursements to compensate for (presumed) lower admin costs? Everytime private insurers have tried this same trick, it doesn't work (my company even offers *FREE* workstations and IT infrastructure to providers to speed up payments, reduce errors, and reduce admin burden ... haven't seen the physicians pass on cost reductions yet although we do see faster processing).

3) Are the feds going to be at-risk for his "FEHBP-sustitute" plan? That's the only way I can see any rational insurer company wanting to play that game, and even then, you're going to get the bargain basement TPA's doing the bodding ... this carries with it all sorts of financial implications for the government.

4) How subsidized will the FEHBP-substitute be?

5) As far as I can read, he basically is proposing a national takeover of the medical reinsurance market, just like John Kerry proposed. However, I haven't seen any discussion of the development of the needed expertise to engage in cost-controls for that venture. Is there more detail on how this would work?

6) What is the increased cost to all government expenditures caused by his employer-mandate for insurance? I'm thinking specifically increased costs to Medicare via Medicare Contracting. But conceivably, this could be an issue for all contracting.
 
133biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 13:13
His health care plan is actually the thing I like least about Obama. Unfortunately it's also the thing I care about most, which puts me in a bit of a quandary.

I wish he were as honest and upfront about what the health care solution will likely entail as he is about immigration.

We need to contain costs. What needs to be done in order to contain costs is to ration. Nobody in a national election, including the water-walking Obama, is foolish enough to use the word rationing.

I tried to query my step-mother, who teaches health care policy, about Obama's plan. She was so caught up in irrational hatred for Hillary, I couldn't get any useful information out of her. It didn't help that it was as NH results were rolling in, I suppose.

Anyway, if I find some time I'll try and dig up some info.

My opinion hasn't changed too much on this subject, however. The only way we are going to save money is to ban health insurers in the primary market (okay, I'll let them live to serve 2nd-tier richies), stop letting hospitals make stupid technology decisions to attract docs, multiply the staff of the FDA by 10 so that they can actually study the questions that need to be studied about drugs in an unbiased manner, and make certain that the only job Madman can have is in a government agency. ;)
 
134Madman
ID: 230542010
Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 15:08
We need to contain costs. What needs to be done in order to contain costs is to ration. Nobody in a national election, including the water-walking Obama, is foolish enough to use the word rationing.

I'd use the phrase "redirect demand", which I think is more inclusive of a host of options that would ultimately reduce the quantity of procedures and consults and operations sold. But I agree in principal.

I don't want to hijack the thread from my Obama inquiry, but could you refresh me on your rationale for "the only way we are going to save money is to ban health insurers in the primary market". I seem to recall some anticompetitive concerns and the like.

Lastly, exactly what is Michelle Obama's job in health admin at U of Chicago? Must be nice to work for a company with that much money to lavish on execs ... and on advertising.
 
135biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 15:39
Well maybe not perfectly consistent. I sometimes ponder how to let health insurers live, since their lobbying power almost certainly will force them to be part of any politically feasible solution.

I suppose there are a number of threads we could dredge up. I don't really have the time right now, unfortunately. I'm out of my house and computer access in the evenings, trying to somehow stop contractors from bankrupting me, a increasingly complicated taxes. All while somehow managing to keep my job for a little while longer all the while keeping my 1 year old happy.

Maybe next month!
 
136Madman
ID: 230542010
Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 15:52
Congrats on the 1-year old. I have one, too. I don't get much sleep anymore.

I was being lazy (and busy) ... didn't want to dig old posts. Also just wondered if anything had changed. I'll wait a month. ;)
 
137Madman
ID: 14139157
Sun, Mar 02, 2008, 11:12
Mad 87 -- Just heard a rerun of the last Democratic debate. Obama *DID* come up with the rejoinder I suggested ... transcript In fact, Medicare Part B is not mandated, it is voluntary. And yet people over 65 choose to purchase it, Hillary, and the reason they choose to purchase it is because it's a good deal.

So, the Obama campaign reads my posts. Now, to help Clinton out, her rejoinder could have been ...

"yes, Medicare Part B has been a very popular program. This proves that if you subsidize healthcare *enough*, then people will buy it. Medicare Part B is 75% subsidized. A subsidy that high would bankrupt Obama's plan, just like that subsidy is bankrupting Medicare. Furthermore, many of the people who choose not to buy it are among the poorest and most destitute seniors. Even if they have purchased it in the past, rapid inflation in Part B premiums is driving the poorest of the poor out of the Medicare market.

And, lastly, Medicare Part B is widely viewed as a weak benefit plan. Without the massive subsidy, few would buy it. That's why there's a multi-billion private insurance industry to fill in the holes in the government's senior healthcare safety net. That's why many have proposed adding a catastrophic coverage plan for our seniors. And that's why General Motors retirees are willing to put their jobs on the line to negotiate for retirement benefits better than what the government provides in your "model" system."

We'll see if she reads these forums like Obama apparently does.
 
138Perm Dude
ID: 472128
Sun, Mar 02, 2008, 11:23
Well, I dunno how to tell you this--but I'm Barack Obama.
 
139Madman
ID: 14139157
Sun, Mar 02, 2008, 11:41
PD-- that's scary! I thought your connections were with the Clinton camp?

So, can I ask you what you really plan to do about healthcare?
 
140Perm Dude
ID: 472128
Sun, Mar 02, 2008, 11:53
Heavily subsidized vitamins, Madman.

I was a bit in with the Clinton camp, but never thought she should run. But, at 60, I guess she didn't want to wait.
 
141Madman
ID: 14139157
Sun, Mar 02, 2008, 12:09
Heavily subsidized vitamins, Madman. Ha! There is a ton of truth in that joke ...

PD -- yeah, this was her shot. In retrospect, I'm not sure why she didn't run in 2004 ... Although it's easy to criticize now, since we see that the Dems had a legit candidate in Obama ... She was probably looking forward to 2008 and seeing a mostly empty field ...
 
142Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Sun, Mar 02, 2008, 12:58


Coooooooommmmmmmmme to Obama
 
143Madman
ID: 230542010
Mon, Mar 03, 2008, 11:44
NAFTA memo comes back to Obama's camp ... Is Obama posturing solely for political purposes, or does he hold principled anti-NAFTA views?

Goolsbee, one of his advisors, made some comments to the Canadians that he claims were misinterpreted that Obama is just blowing smoke ... unfortunately, the story doesn't quote Goolsbee correcting the record, so we don't know what Goolsbee claims he really did say.

Personally, I think Obama does have an interesting argument that Canada doesn't protect its workers or the enviroment. Their record on healthcare, for example, is rather sad. To the extent that Obama can fix their system, more power to him.

I would like to know, however, whether he plans on backing down from his rhetoric on this issue. Not that I care about Canadian workers, but I do care about destroying the US economy.
 
144Perm Dude
ID: 522138
Mon, Mar 03, 2008, 11:51
My reading is that Obama wants to renegotiate NAFTA with regard to worker safety and environmental issues. Everything else should be interpreted in this light. No doubt we'll hear talk about "opting out" of NAFTA but that's just a negotiating ploy. Everything I've read points to Obama wanting to strengthen areas of NAFTA he believes are weak, not tossing it out without a look back.

pd
 
145Perm Dude
ID: 522138
Mon, Mar 03, 2008, 12:24
Barack Obama: Not your father's liberal:



I saw this last week, but saw that Andrew Sullivan (among others) posted it today. About 3 minutes in Obama starts hammering the same points he was making during the 2004 DNC speech which makes his version of liberalism quite different: The key to successful living is responsible living. And when it comes to schools, parents need to parent.
 
146Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, Mar 03, 2008, 13:12
Their record on healthcare, for example, is rather sad.

I don't know that I agree with you, Canadians themselves seem awfully proud of their healthcare. Is this what the American insurance company industry tells itself?
 
147Madman
ID: 230542010
Mon, Mar 03, 2008, 15:36
I don't know that I agree with you, Canadians themselves seem awfully proud of their healthcare. Is this what the American insurance company industry tells itself?

I'm just going by Obama's rhetoric ... clearly Canada doesn't look after its workers like the US does ...

As far as Canadians being proud of their healthcare, that's news to me. I've seen polling indicate that they are proud of their *financing* mechanisms ... fairness, access in proportion to need, prices and the like. But very rarely -- if ever -- have I heard Canadians brag about the care itself. That's why parents like the infamous Jepps weren't allowed to give birth in Calgary and had to travel to Great Falls. But they did so for free.
 
148Madman
ID: 230542010
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 09:57
What is Obama's position on the Arctic?

The issue hasn't been too politicized yet, and may offer a window into his inner Obama.
 
149biliruben
ID: 5610442715
Fri, Mar 07, 2008, 12:39
What is Obama's position on the Arctic?

He's for it.

;)
 
150Madman
ID: 14139157
Sat, Mar 08, 2008, 11:35
A fascinating interview with Samantha Power, on Hardtalk. link

My main impression is how much I wish we could get a US politician to directly discuss questions like this.

Obviously, Power has now resigned, over a reference to Hillary as a "monster". In the interview, she touches on a number of other policy positions that have bubbled from her and tarnished Obama's foreign policy credentials ... voluntary-ethnic-cleansing in Iraq, use of US force in Pakistan, how to "repair" the world, how Obama is selling his plan for withdrawal during the campaign, and how that differs from his plans (again, in her view) after the election, etc.

Hearing it straight from her, however, I do regret our political system that makes someone like her such an albatross. It's not that I agree with her. But she is trying to honestly seek answers, and she and her policies should be evaluated on that measure of good faith. The fact that she got canned over the "monster" remark rather than her ideas is rather disturbing.

The only topic I know about her that wasn't addressed here is that I've heard she also is an advocate for the use of force in Israel, in order to establish a Palestinian state. Now that she's resigned, of course, that isn't nearly so important as it once was. Although I presume she'll remain a late night text-messaging buddy with Obama.

Samantha, we'll miss you.
 
151Madman
ID: 14139157
Sun, Mar 09, 2008, 19:34
This should be recorded in this thread.

Last week, a different Obama foreign policy advisor stated publicly that neither Obama nor Clinton was ready for that 3 a.m. phone call. link

In the spirit of bipartisanship, the McCain campaign agreed with her literal comments.

Rice tried to distance herself from taking her speech literally, and instead to focus on the broader picture that all 3 candidates will be neophytes. link. "Last night on Tucker Carlson's show, I said that Senator Clinton, Senator Obama, and Senator McCain have never had to answer that proverbial 3 a.m. crisis phone call; only a commander in chief has shouldered that unique burden." Which is true. However, as she notes herself in the transcript (and as in the first link I mentioned above) ... the quote in question was specific to Clinton and Obama ... "They`re both not ready to have that 3:00 a.m. phone call." ... In other words, she said none of the three had had such a phone call, and neither Clinton nor Obama was ready for one.

Putting aside that technical error in her speech, it's a very strange argument, since it presupposes no candidate could be ready for such a moment. It also supposes that since no candidate could be ready, it is a silly question to ask. I don't follow that rationalization, since clearly candidates could be more or less prepared based upon their background, history, and inclinations.

And as to the single issue of judgment that Obama is claiming trump on, I'll put to his supporters the same (as yet unmet) challenge I've put to people on this board and DPS readers ... if you did not support the invasion of Iraq, describe when and how your desired tactics would have diverged from the Bush administration's in 2002. Then, given subsequent information that we have gained, vis a vis the "rockstars", Ansar Al Islam, Oil-for-Food program corruption, lack of WMD plans active, etc., describe how your tactics would have played out and why the world would be in a significantly better position today than it is. Build a plausible and preferable counterfactual. Such a build is a necessary but not sufficient condition for presuming superior judgment.
 
152Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Sun, Mar 09, 2008, 20:50
she also is an advocate for the use of force in Israel, in order to establish a Palestinian state. - Madman

They could have had a state at any time since the founding of modern Isreal had they only been willing to stipulate to the right if her neighbors to exist in peace. That was the UN's requirement when they were handing out countries.

How do you use force to get to that point?
 
153Madman
ID: 14139157
Sun, Mar 09, 2008, 23:38
You send a "meaningful military force" to get the Palestinians to agree/comply.

Wiki ... "Among her more controversial positions has been avowed support for intervention against Israel to secure a Palestinian state. In a 2002 interview at Berkeley[4] , Power proposed that instead of encouraging negotiations between Israelis and Arabs, the United States should spend "billions of dollars" to send a "meaningful military" force to effect the "imposition of a solution" and create "the new state of Palestine" beside Israel. [5]"

Obviously I don't agree with her on this. Of coursre, I'm not an Obamican, either.
 
154Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Mon, Mar 10, 2008, 00:08
Lol...yeah, that'd work!
 
155Boxman
ID: 337352111
Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 13:36
From the WSJ.

The Obama Tax Hike
By ANDREW G. BIGGS
March 12, 2008; Page A20

Until recently, Sen. Barack Obama took a responsible position on Social Security, noting the urgency of reform and saying all options should be on the table.

But having cornered himself among Democratic activists whose attitudes toward Social Security reform range from demagoguery to denial, Mr. Obama has recently veered sharply left. He now proposes to solve the looming Social Security shortfall exclusively with higher taxes.

"Once people are making over $200,000 to $250,000," Mr. Obama says, "they can afford to pay a little more in payroll tax." No shared sacrifice, no outreach to moderates or conservatives, here.

Mr. Obama's proposal is to make a significant change to the payroll tax system. Currently, all wages below about $100,000 are subject to a 12.4% Social Security payroll tax. But all wages above that amount are not subject to the tax. Mr. Obama wants to eliminate the cap, but, in a concession to taxpayers, exempt wages between $100,000 and $200,000. He wants to create a "donut hole" in the taxing mechanism that pays for the nation's largest retirement program.

The problem is two-fold: His proposal would be a very large tax hike, yet it won't be enough.

Mr. Obama's plan fixes less than half of Social Security's long-term deficit, making further tax increases inevitable. The Policy Simulation Group's Gemini model estimates that Mr. Obama's proposal, if phased as Mr. Obama suggests, would solve only part of the problem. A 10 year phase-in, for example, would address only 43% of Social Security's 75-year shortfall. And this is assuming that Congress would save the surplus from the tax increases -- almost $600 billion over 10 years -- rather than spending it, as Congress does now.

What's more, Mr. Obama's plan would keep Social Security in the black for only three additional years. Under his proposal, annual deficits would hit in 2020, instead of 2017. By the 2030s the system would still run an annual deficit exceeding $150 billion.

Mr. Obama's modest improvements to Social Security's financing come at a steep cost. The top marginal federal tax rates would effectively increase to 50.3% from 37.9%, equivalent to repealing the Bush income tax cuts almost three times over.

If one accounts for behavioral responses, even the modest budgetary improvements from Mr. Obama's plan are likely to be overstated. If employers reduce wages to cover their increased payroll-tax liabilities, these wages would no longer be subject to state or federal income taxes, or Medicare taxes. A 2006 study by Harvard economist and Obama adviser Jeffrey Liebman concluded that roughly 20% of revenue increases from raising the tax cap would be offset by declining non-Social Security taxes. Assuming modest negative behavioral responses, Mr. Liebman projected an additional 30% reduction in net revenues, leaving barely half the intended revenue intact.

Mr. Obama's plan would also dramatically raise incentives for tax evasion, further degrading revenue gains. Many high-earning individuals evade the Medicare payroll tax by setting up "S Corporations," paying themselves in untaxed dividends rather than taxable wages. John Edwards avoided $590,000 in Medicare taxes this way in the 1990s. Under Mr. Obama's plan, Mr. Edwards's savings would have exceeded $3 million. With that much at stake, the incentive to follow Mr. Edwards lead will be that much greater.

Mr. Obama's plan shows the limits to taxing the rich as a solution to Social Security's problems. Top earners would effectively be tapped out, with taxes as high as economically and politically feasible, yet most of Social Security's deficit, and the much larger shortfalls in Medicare, would remain.

The U.S. already collects far more Social Security taxes from high earners than other countries do. Social Security taxes here are currently capped at about three times the national average wage -- far above other developed countries. In Canada and France payroll taxes are levied only up to the average wage. In the United Kingdom, taxes stop at 1.15 times the average wage; in Germany and Japan at 1.5 times. Social Security is already more progressive than these countries' pension programs, and Mr. Obama's plan would make it more so.

President Bill Clinton considered lifting the wage ceiling modestly, but was skeptical of eliminating it outright. Doing so would "tremendously change the whole Social Security system . . . We should be very careful before we get out of the id

ea that this is something that we do together as a nation and there is at least some correlation between what we put in and what we get out," Mr. Clinton said in 1998. "You can say, well, they owe it to society. But these people also pay higher income taxes and the rates are still pretty progressive for people in very high rates."

Social Security's shortfalls are primarily attributable to society-wide trends of lower birth rates and longer lifespans. If we want to retain the shared character that underpins its political support and distinguishes it from traditional welfare programs, we need to share the burdens of reform proportionately. Mr. Obama should drop his exclusive focus on raising taxes and return to his previous view, that Social Security faces significant problems requiring prompt attention. All options should be on the table.

Mr. Biggs, a former principal deputy commissioner at the Social Security Administration, is a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.
 
156Perm Dude
ID: 58257128
Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 13:42
No shared sacrifice

LOL! The wealthy have been asked to make much less of a sacrifice during the last 6 years. The phrase is funny because the wealthy have not shared the sacrifice of this war or any of the other massive costs that the government has taken on, including Social Security.

All options should be on the table.

Except, apparently, the one that the author disagrees with.
 
157sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 17:39
This is pretty similar IIRC, to what essentially totally derailed Bruce Babbitt in his run some years ago. His solution re SS then, was to immediately remove the cap on income subject to FICA withholding.

As for "provides an incentive for tax evasion"...what? That doesnt already exist and isnt already practiced on a monumental scale? This kind of move, would provide no more or less incentive than currently is there, for commission of Felony Fraud. (ie, I find it reasonable to believe that if you'll commit fraud for 3 mill and are in that position, odds are good you are already committing fraud over 1 mill.)
 
158Madman
ID: 14139157
Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 18:08
Boxman's quoted criticisms are quite relevant, mainstream and moderate.

It is interesting that Obama's proposed solution involves the deconstruction of the main social insurance program now in existence, transforming it from a "what you get out is a function of what you put in" society-wide program to a welfare program. This is not necessarily the wrong general approach, and a movement in that direction is likely required. It should be part of the solution. But it can't be all of the solution, because it does represent a radical shift in tax policy that will carry with it a variety of unwelcome consequences. It also isn't large enough to put the system on a solvent basis. And it also doesn't help the system balance in-flows and out-flows.

Speaking at least for myself, I don't want my Social Security benefits held hostage to the most volatile slice of our income distribution. But I earn less than most of you folks, I guess.

sarge -- not sure about Babbitt. this indicates he was in favor of taxing Social Security benefits.

This move would provide a significantly higher incentive than what already exists. In the next 8 years, we'll see a return of the marginal income tax rate to the Clinton era 39%. That will represent a roll-back of the Bush tax cuts, and will be a minor shift compared to imposing the full Social Security tax on all wages above $200k.

You don't have to commit fraud to evade income taxes, especially at the higher income tax brackets. You can take advantage of tax code loopholes to redefine income, redistribution income from higher income years into lower income years, etc.

Pushing the top tax rate, cumulative, from the current 35ish to 45ish, with the employer dunking in another 6+%, and that's a radical shift in incentives for the most flexible workers in the country. It will be interesting to see the labor force participation rate 10 years into such a regime.
 
159Madman
ID: 14139157
Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 18:16
BTW, sorry to double-post, but notice that in the Babbitt link from 1987, we were having a much more productive national discussion about senior care. We had properly identified deficiencies in Medicare, and were discussing how to fund corrections to those deficiencies. I think that may be why he suggested taxing Social Security benefits.

These deficiencies in our government healthcare financing network still exist, and rather than worrying about the lack of true insurance within our senior population, we have become infatuated with a variety of other problems. Rather sad.
 
160sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 18:31
Its been 20 years and I may have been incorrect in my remembrances. Also note, that the tax on SS income, would have excluded the first 32k annually. (In terms of 1988 dollars. Havent bothered with COLA figures to see what that would mean in terms of todays dollars. It would not however, have taxed SS for those with seriously limited retirement incomes.)
 
161J-Bar
ID: 10241920
Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 23:06
well said Madman, RSDI is an insurance program that pays benefits directly proportional to what you paid in (with an already weighted calculation). If you eliminate the cap and have a maximum benefit amount then the spirit of the whole program is undermined and should therefore just be eliminated and replaced with a social program that you are means tested to get (not my preference).
 
162Perm Dude
ID: 542451217
Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 23:18
Speaking at least for myself, I don't want my Social Security benefits held hostage to the most volatile slice of our income distribution.

Well, putting aside the assertion that the wealthy are the most volatile, a raising of the limit on Social Security withholding isn't holding Social Security hostage in any way. It is (and should be) one of several things to be done to help keep Social Security aloft down the line.

Also, the wealthy are much more likely to both live longer (and therefore collect more than they put into the system) and have less need of the money anyway (because most all people earning above the threshhold of $102K have other retirement financial vehicles).

My own Social Security plan would involve a gradual raising of the limit (to keep up with inflation), limiting the benefits of the wealthy to no more than they paid into the system, and to continue to raise the retirement age.
 
163Madman
ID: 14139157
Thu, Mar 13, 2008, 00:00
When projecting the solvency of the system, the variability of the income stream is in question. For example, the upper income tiers tend to have higher fluctation than lower income tiers (see the volatility of California's income tax system, for example, which is highly progressive).

Now, Obama is basically proposing a flat-tax, so it's not like he's proposing a system that is more volatile than the current US federal income tax system. However, a unique feature of Social Security to date is that the revenue base is relatively stable, compared to economic growth. This is off the top of my head, and should be studied.

The limit is already raised to keep up with inflation. In fact, it is raised to keep up with the NAWI, if I recall correctly ... in other words, it is indexed to "wage inflation", albeit wage inflation below the maximum. It's only because the growth of wages above the maximum has exceeded the growth of wages below the maximum that this issue has been raised.

Limiting the benefits of the wealthy to no more than they paid into the system is something that is also being taken care of as we speak. This is mostly true, already; I believe it is likely true even at a zero percent interest rate. Although this is harder to measure than you'd think.

And obviously raising the retirement age -- or, even better, linking it to longevity -- directly hedges the system against one of its significant risk factors -- the aging of the population. That's a win-win.

Unlike using taxes on the wealthy to pay for the benefits of the poor, which might work fine when the economy is growing, but could result in a starkly and quickly deteriorating trust fund situation in times when the economy is in recession.

And, of course, bear in mind that we aren't being accurate when we call these people wealthy. The people we are talking about meet the income threshold in a particular year. That might the only year they do so, and they might not have any "wealth" in a traditional sense at all. Unlike an inherited trust-fund baby, for instance, who might have a ton of wealth but be well below the Social Security payroll max.
 
164Perm Dude
ID: 542451217
Thu, Mar 13, 2008, 00:04
The poor, by and large, don't live as long (and so often don't collect even what they put it). Raising Social Security taxes on the wealthy will pay for the benefits of the middle class, for the most part.

I understand what you mean by "wealthy" but, on those years that those people don't make the threshhold in a particular year, they won't be taxed as much. And the limits to using income only are clear, as you point out. But by and large this huge system needs some tinkering but not wholesale changes.
 
165revvingparson
Sustainer
ID: 059856912
Thu, Mar 13, 2008, 09:18
To be frank the American public needs to awake to the reality that spending is out of control. The next president if they really want to be honest and forthright will put on the table that spending will have to be cut across the board--this means more than just a balanced budget.

I would disagree PD, SS needs some drastic reworking which must include among other things means testing. But also Americans have got to remember that SS was never meant to be a retirement plan, but a supplement. Thus somehow personal savings must be brought into the equation, whether its forced i.e., % from paycheck put into a retirement savings account.

Though the American mentality has been vote for the person that promises the most "goodies", we as a country have got to get pass that and accept personal responsibility for some things that we are asking government to do.

Health care, paying down the debt, earmarks, pork in general...It doesn't matter which party they are both have problems in trying to "give" handouts. Let's be honest it is easier to offer a handout, than say I'm going to cut.

When I listen to Obama it's nice to hear the pleasantries, but I don't believe he or the other two candidates have really laid out here's how I'm going to not simply balance the budget, but also reduce the debt to a manageable level. Why? Because no one, R or D, will get elected saying we're going to take away your handouts--which is necessary since both parties have punted this ball for decades.

For full disclosure I use to be a dye in the wool R, but have slowly become more of a fiscal libertarian but remain a social conservative.
 
166Perm Dude
ID: 6253135
Thu, Mar 13, 2008, 09:52
SS was never meant to be a retirement plan

That's not true, rev. Social Security came about because the retired at the time had no money for their retirement--i.e, no retirement plan. Later, Social Security might have morphed into the idea of a supplementary plan after retirement plans began to be a part of employee contracts (thanks to the concurent actions of union bargaining and people seeing the wisdom, though the SSA, of retirement planning). But at the start it was never intended to be just a supplement.
 
167revvingparson
Sustainer
ID: 059856912
Thu, Mar 13, 2008, 10:43
I stand corrected:)
 
168Perm Dude
ID: 6253135
Thu, Mar 13, 2008, 10:45
:)

I think your post reveals the problem that Social Security has become, however. I think it has morphed into a supplemental retirement plan (much more so for the wealthy, of course), but it is still treated as though millions of retired have no other source of income. Which isn't true.

A means test wouldn't be a bad thing, IMO.
 
169Madman
ID: 230542010
Thu, Mar 13, 2008, 12:48
PD -- I think you are fundamentally misreading the data on Social Security. Here's the 1994-1996 Commission report, statement by Bok, Combs, et al. See Figure IRR1. Notice how the maximium earners get between 50% and 70% of their money back under current law. Obama's plan would substantially reduce that amount. You have to keep in mind that the PIA formula breaks are *extremely* progressive, more than offsetting the regressive nature of the taxation in total, let alone looking at just the contributed taxes.

It's a bit ironic that you are suggesting we limit the benefits of the wealthy to what they paid in. When FDR started the program, he guaranteed that everyone would get AT LEAST what they put into it. And, of course, the entire discussion is mostly moot now, since the "rich" don't get anywhere close to what they put into it. And Obama is proposing to break one of the last remaining linkages to FDR's socialized vision -- breaking the connection between increased benefits and the tax ceiling.

As to the history, here's a quick overview.

I think you can fairly argue either perspective vis a vis whether it was originally designed to be an all-encompassing savings plan or just a supplement. Like most mega legislations, it has its roots in many different movements. Part of the argument hinged on what we would now call a market-failure argument that the private sector wasn't providing cheap enough life annuities; this was especially problematic after the stock market crash. Part of the argument hinged on the difficulties the states were having with their old-age pensions. And part of the argument was that we could have real "social insurance" that would help protect everyone from, if not 100% of life's hazards, at least most.

Political and economic realities have gradually forced the program into a smaller and smaller niche role.

And millions of retirees DON'T have significant other sources of income, at least aside from labor income. a crappy source

Obviously, however, if you are under the age of 45 and are relying on Social Security exclusively, you are insane. Social Security will become an automated Medicare payment system, with the bulk of your retirement coming from your private savings. Gulp.
 
170Boxman
ID: 337352111
Thu, Mar 13, 2008, 13:30
From my usual source, the WSJ.

Obama on Offense
By DOROTHY RABINOWITZ
March 13, 2008

It came as a relief to hear, in the last few days, that both Democratic candidates were now about to go on the attack, though pundits agreed such low tactics had been forced on Barack Obama. There's something reassuring about the usual election season blather over negative campaigning. That relief is a response, mostly, to any whiff of normality promising to emerge in the current Democratic race.

Still, the prospects are thin, given the rapturous response Mr. Obama has enjoyed at the hands of a good part of the press -- attitudes so obvious that the usual stern media denials that their coverage was other than objective have been hard to find. Anyone who doubts this bias has only to look at the past week's charges that Hillary Clinton and company have been playing the race card -- the latest in a series of such accusations made by Obama surrogates, carried forward by the media.

Of those offenses, the most memorable, perhaps, concerned Bill Clinton's challenge to the record Sen. Obama claimed regarding his long opposition to the Iraq war, which Mr. Clinton called "a fairy tale." In short order, word was put out that the former president had insulted black Americans and their high hopes for this election, by use of this disparaging term, "fairy tale." Mr. Clinton, some charged, had denigrated Mr. Obama's entire candidacy as a fantasy.

There was, too, the Martin Luther King/Lyndon Johnson saga. Here Hillary Clinton's incontestably accurate comment -- that it had taken the action of a president, Lyndon Johnson, to pass the Civil Rights Act, and thus bring to fruition the goal to which Dr. King had devoted his life -- ignited storms of outrage, furious commentaries on how Sen. Clinton had played a sly race card, diminishing Dr. King's importance in comparison to that of the white president.

In all, the pattern of these charges may well suggest a race card in play, only it wasn't the Clintons who were playing it.

The latest charge arose from a "60 Minutes" interview a week ago, in which Mrs. Clinton was supposedly contriving a way to suggest that Mr. Obama is in fact a secret Muslim. In the stories carried elsewhere in the media, the case against her rests on five words.

The entire "60 Minutes" exchange -- showing her effort to answer interrogator Steve Kroft's persistent questions -- would have been more instructive. Because, as in so many interrogations, an emphatic no -- when the investigator is looking for another answer -- is never enough.

Mr. Kroft: "You don't believe that Sen. Obama is a Muslim?"

Mrs. Clinton: "Of course not. I mean, you know, there is no basis for that. I take him on the basis of what he says. You know, there isn't any reason to doubt that."

Kroft: "You said you take Sen. Obama at his word that he's not. . . . You don't believe that he's. . . ."

Clinton: "No, no. There's nothing to base that on, as far as I know."

Kroft: "It's just scurrilous . . .?"

Clinton: "Look, I have been the target of so many ridiculous rumors that I have a great deal of sympathy for anybody who gets, you know, smeared with the kind of rumors that go on all the time."

The now famous five words, "as far as I know" come trailing a sentence showing an interviewee clearly trying to fill space -- babbling, as we all do, when there's nothing more to say and the persistent interrogator requires, nevertheless, more talk. Clearly, that "as far as I know" is chatter, without import, in the midst of emphatic declarations rejecting the notion that Mr. Obama is Muslim.

Without import except, of course, to the cadres prepared to find in those words material for the manufacture of another story of a Clinton outrage. To do so requires reporting only the sentence in which the phrase appears, while leaving out all that came before and after. New York Times columnist Bob Herbert did precisely that in a column on Saturday, charging that those five words represented "one of the sleaziest moments of the campaign to date."

Mr. Herbert is far from alone in this stunning assessment -- a measure of the fevers that have swept so many journalists away in the course of this campaign.

Mr. Obama, in the meantime, has now found occasion to try going on the attack against Mrs. Clinton as he has been urged -- though not without trepidation from supporters worried about the effect on his image as an inspirational leader and voice of a new politics. Could he even do such things? Yes he could.

As he showed in an angry speech this week, in which he lashed out at Mrs. Clinton for raising the possibility that he could serve as vice president, the worriers were right. The candidate will have to find, at the very least, an attack mode other than the preening and petulance on display Monday.

For all of Mr. Obama's celebrated speeches, his capacity to attract and arouse crowds, we know mostly his public persona -- a presence confident, forward-looking, thoughtful. Of his actual attitudes, social and political, his views about the nation he plans to lead, those lengthy speeches have revealed remarkably little, other than a belief that American hearts are filled to bursting with their yearning for change. We shall see.

His closest adviser, Michelle Obama, has left little doubt about her views of American society, and its people. These views have received relatively scant coverage, other than in the brief period that followed her observation on the campaign trail in Wisconsin a few weeks back, when the wife of the candidate told crowds that she was, for the first time in her life, "proud" of her country. It was an attention-getting pronouncement quickly amended and recast, once the uproar of amazement began to be heard.

Everyone can have an untoward moment under the pressures of campaigning. It was obvious, nonetheless, that this was no blip, no failure to express her real thought. She said exactly what she'd wanted to say. And for doing so Mrs. Obama expected no amazed response. The comment reflected her deeply held, grim view of American society, one she was accustomed to sharing with others who thought likewise. Why should it not have come tripping from the tongue?

It was, furthermore, just one of numerous such revelatory statements she has regularly made. In speeches on the campaign trail she has held forth on her view of America, which is, as she describes it, a country that is "downright mean" and "driven by fear." She recently waxed irate over the American attention to security interests, arguing that we should be "changing the conversation" and building diplomatic relations "instead of protecting ourselves against terrorists." A minor note, to be sure, though it's to be hoped that a President Obama will not turn to this closest adviser for her views on the national defense.

A New Yorker profile published last week quotes numerous stump speech pronouncements, among them Mrs. Obama's assertion that most Americans' lives have gotten worse since she was a girl. "So if you want to pretend like there was some point in the last couple of decades when your life was easy, I want to meet you."

In short, not only is existence in America a desperate proposition for most citizens -- anyone claiming to have led a satisfactory one not sunk in the hell that is American life is, quite simply, lying. America is, she has elsewhere informed audiences, a nation whose "souls are broken."

It is a vision striking for its consistent hostility to any notion that Americans have cause for optimism and pride in their country: striking, too, for the stark and obvious absence, in this graduate of Princeton and Harvard Law School, of any sense of the reasons Americans might revere their nation and consider themselves fortunate to be its citizens.

Doubtless we shall hear more about Mrs. Obama's views as the campaign goes on. In the meantime, we can only imagine how this will all play out in the event of an Obama presidency. First Lady Michelle Obama would certainly encounter foreign reporters who have attentively covered the campaign and who have questions to ask. One of them may well be, "Madame First Lady, would you care to tell us more about your oft-stated view of America as a nation whose soul is broken? And a word, if you would about the desperate lives lived by most Americans?"

The response would be interesting to hear.

Ms. Rabinowitz is a member of The Wall Street Journal's editorial board.
 
171Perm Dude
ID: 33239189
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 15:24
Obama delivers an amazing speech on race, political discourse, and the nuance that demands our attentions

Typical Obama: A challenge to think deeper about ourselves and our relationship with others, that will go completely over the head of Dittoheads everywhere because the words of the speech were delivered in pen while they are still working with their 8-crayon Crayola box.

The thing I'm most looking forward to in an Obama presidency is whether his leadership toward raising our own standards on political discourse will be followed. People are just tired of the crap.
 
172Perm Dude
ID: 33239189
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 15:26
Video and transcript for those who don't like their news entirely pre-chewed
 
173Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 15:47
Truly a remarkably complex insight into race relations and the nature of the America dream. While I agree more than I disagree, and what a marvelous speechwriter/orator, Obama's real failure is the failure to realize how ruinously expensive it would be if the government really became 'our brother's keeper'. A job so large that no inherently inefficient goverment could deliver and so overwheening as to become 'our brother's jailer' rather than keeper. A job that others have claimed to fulfill only to be exposed when the curtain is drawn back for the iron-fisted dictatorships and heartless failures they actually were/are.
 
174Perm Dude
ID: 33239189
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 16:26
You know, I think you are right. And I can't really speak for others on this, but while I like Obama's message of hope, the thing that gets me is his message of responsiblity. I don't know of any other Democrat (within memory) who could go into an inner city school full of parents and tell them that no matter how much money we give to schools for teacher salaries, infrastructure, books, and everything else, it all falls apart if "the parents don't parent."

Or, as happened last week, for a Democrat to go into a union plant and tell them that their job is to make sure that the company makes a profit, otherwise they'll lose their jobs, union contract or no.
 
175walk
ID: 181472714
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 17:23
Interesting points, PD and Boldwin...

Great speech. This guy is deep, far deeper than say senile candidates who think Al Quaida is being trained by Iran. Oy veh.
 
176Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 17:39
Now if the Wrights and Sharptons of the world were listening and learning and changing, Obama has already won a victory for Americans.
 
177Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 17:46
Give this guy a veto-proof Republican congress and he might be a great president. Give him a Dem congress and you can kiss this country's future goodbye.
 
178Perm Dude
ID: 33239189
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 17:49
Well, it depends on the Dems (now *there's* a slogan for you!). Democrats like Rush Holt, or Democrats like Jesse Jackson, Jr?
 
179Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 18:22
How many do you suppose are not willing to carry watter for Hugo Chavez or sign Kyoto or treaty of the seas?
 
180Perm Dude
ID: 33239189
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 18:32
Lots of moderates there. About the same number of Republicans, I believe. But extremists will always be there. We simply can't let them dictate the terms of the debates.

 
181Madman
ID: 14139157
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 19:03
Geez, very disappointing. A speech filled with non-sequitors, misguided policy proposals, and less-than-artful dodging.

It is sad that our political discourse has fallen to this level. Mr. Obama, the problem about Wright's speech isn't that he spoke about our society as being static. It's that he spoke about our society from a fundamentally poisoned perspective.

By talking about government-induced ER lines, we can address race relations. We call for more welfare while blaming welfare, perhaps, for some problems in the black community.

I will give him kudos for not throwing Wright entirely overboard. Otherwise, I fail to see the attractiveness of the speech. It's a naked attempt to reframe the debate. The question, Mr. Obama, was never about whether you sympathized with Wright's words. Perhaps the biggest question is whether you believe that the proper way to heal racial wounds is to sit silent while venom is spewed, view it as your moral obligation to pay for that venom to spread, and then show remarkable insensitivity by promoting your association with the same.

Yes, Mr. Wright is a complex person. Yes, he's the product of his environment and history. Mr. Obama, you became part of his history. Rather than choosing to influence, you chose to silently tolerate and ignore. I still don't understand why.
 
182Perm Dude
ID: 33239189
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 19:42
I'm not sure how you can say he's sitting silent. The speech was given in response to the matter.

Many blacks who came of age, politically, in the 1960s have a worldview like Wright's. I don't believe Obama shares that worldview, which is the point, isn't it? Rather than reframing the debate, Obama is putting the debate back on topic.

 
183Tree
ID: 72171817
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 19:44
Perhaps the biggest question is whether you believe that the proper way to heal racial wounds is to sit silent while venom is spewed,

when your pastor/preacher/etc was giving a sermon, and said something you disagreed with, did YOU stand up and shout him or her down, mid-sermon?
 
184Tree
ID: 72171817
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 19:47
also - i'd like to give credit to baldwin. i am quick to condemn him, and while his compliments were backhanded a bit, it appears he either read or listened to what Obama had to say, and that is something i have to admit i am surprised about.

i pretty much was going on the presumption that Baldwin would dismiss anything he heard or read Obama said, but it's good to know i am wrong in that presumption.
 
185steve houpt
ID: 451161019
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 20:09
PD - I think the point Madman was making [although I'm sure he can make it better than me] was Obama should have given this speech to REV Wright after listening to him - why wait until now?

If Obama thought Wright's comments were divisive [quote from speech] --- "As such, Reverend Wright’s comments were not only wrong but divisive, divisive at a time when we need unity; racially charged at a time when we need to come together to solve a set of monumental problems --" --- why not confront Wright [hey, he's like family] - he was making these devisive remarks to a congregation of 8000 people [and kids] - to stop the divisive comments. Legitimate point IMHO.

The speech was good, made some good points, shows he understands where both sides come from on some issues - but it did not answer the lingering questions about HIS church [or his judgement - why he didn't confront the REV about his devisive remarks] but is quick to go after Geraldine Ferraro for hers [?sp - ah, who cares].

Also - you say in post 171: "The thing I'm most looking forward to in an Obama presidency is whether his leadership toward raising our own standards on political discourse will be followed. People are just tired of the crap." -- just after you said ditto heads "are still working with their 8-crayon Crayola box." Good start for the discourse.
 
186steve houpt
ID: 451161019
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 20:14
But - I think the speech quells most DEM party doubts if this made Obama un-qualified for the democratic nomination [i.e. - Hillary using this to get super delegates to turn to her because Obama is unelectable].

But turning a blind eye will dog him off and on thru the primary and [if my prediction is correct] general election [can you say 527].
 
187Madman
ID: 14139157
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 21:02
steve h -- yes. In the speech, he's coming clean about knowing that this sort of thing had been going on. But knowing that it had gone on, sitting through it, supporting it, using the person in question as your primary reference for how faith and politics should inter-relate ... and then, when public light is shown, suddenly changing your mind and speaking out ... Dunno.

And what's even weirder, he's not suggesting that his past silence was problematic. As long as you "understand" Wright's history, it's fine to sit and listen, to finance and support.

This is the strangest approach to race relations I've ever heard.

And yes, tree, I expect you to do *something*. I haven't experienced anything like this, despite a pluralistic and broad-ranging faith tradition that I belong to. But my sister did. She approached the pastor and other congregants after the service, and the situation was addressed. I'd like to think that I'd speak up against hatred, as well. Before I got myself put into a political box, that is.
 
188Tree
ID: 72171817
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 21:12
And yes, tree, I expect you to do *something*. I haven't experienced anything like this, despite a pluralistic and broad-ranging faith tradition that I belong to. But my sister did. She approached the pastor and other congregants after the service, and the situation was addressed.

it is very easy to say, when you pull out a handful of phrases over a 20-year-span.

 
189Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 21:24
I think the number of damning soundbites makes it way beyond question that these are typical comments for Wright, not aberations.
 
190Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 21:27
number of damning soundbites

How many are there? I've heard maybe 5. And I think all but one were from the same sermon in 2001.
 
191Boxman
ID: 571114225
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 21:40
How many are there?

How many do there need to be?
 
192Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 21:43
If Obama wins the nomination(and this issue makes it much more of an if), then it will be played out by the fall, when the issues will be Iraq and the economy.

This will have an effect in the general, though, likely costing him some votes, but those minds are being made up now. Any pundit still harping on Wright in October will only be singing to the choir. Everyone else will be saying "Enough already."
 
193Perm Dude
ID: 33239189
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 21:48
#185: How do we know he didn't? The speech tonight, in any case, wasn't aimed at Wright.

I have no idea wher Madman is getting the idea that Obama "supported" the comments in question.
 
194Razor
ID: 412371519
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 21:48
Re: 181 - Obama has been clear. He will not condemn Reverend Wright for he sees him as a function of society. He has issued his condemnation of some of Wright's most hate-filled comments, but as someone who knows him, Obama feels that he is better able to judge the character of the man.

Obama's comments regarding the perspective of blacks in this country being tainted by the ills of past generations rang very true for me. I know many African-Americans, and most share a common fear of discrimination by whites, even in circumstances that patently do not warrant it. These are well-educated, smart, rational, successful individuals most of whom were born well after segregation and grew up in an era where overt racism was nearly non-existent. Nonetheless, these friends share a unreasonable fear that whites are out to get them. It does not make them bad people. And in that same vein, Obama does not believe Reverend Wright is a bad person. Certainly his comments were deplorable, but I think Obama did well in explaining the black experience in America and advocating that Wright is merely a reflection of black America as a whole.
 
195Razor
ID: 412371519
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 21:58
I have no idea wher Madman is getting the idea that Obama "supported" the comments in question.

It appears Madman thinks Obama is guilty of only condemning Wright after this became a media story, in which case I wonder what Madman expected to hear today since the damage, in his mind, has already been done. An apology for attending that church?
 
196steve houpt
ID: 451161019
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 22:15
PD - how do we know he didn't - because I'd bet all my money if he had, he have told us. He said he disagreed, not that he told him he disagreed.

But I give him a little benefit of the doubt. Maybe it's an elder thing. Wright is not only his pastor, he's his elder. I might be reluctant to confront some elders I know even if heard them say some outrageous things - but I don't claim to be a leader with the judgement to be president.
 
197Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 22:17
How many do there need to be?

Over a 20 year relationship, more than 5.
 
198Tree
ID: 72171817
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 22:19
Wright is not only his pastor, he's his elder.

*was* his pastor.
 
199Razor
ID: 412371519
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 22:23
I will say that I suspect Wright has had many whoppers of that ilk. I'll also say that despite Obama's close association with the man, I don't believe it's shaped Obama's views on race relations in any negative way. If Obama shares any of Wright's sentiments, he'd have been exposed by now.

Maybe Obama is no visionary when it comes to race relations, but his biracial makeup perhaps gives credibility or allows him to say things that other candidates believe but do not say. More likely, though, I think Obama has a better perspective on race relations than the other candidates and did an excellent job articulating it today.
 
200Madman
ID: 14139157
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 22:55
PD 193- My "support" comment revolves around the financial contributions he made to the church despite knowing that he was periodically making racist and hateful comments.

Razor 195 -- As I mentioned in another thread *before* the speech, I wanted to hear how he was going to facilitate and lead racial healing in this country. Obviously, the Wright thing was a problem, he could have just acknowledged it, suggested that he should have dealt with the issue sooner, and moved on to how an Obama Presidency would work to bridge the racial divide. Whatever his plans are on that ... how he'd run the EEOC (principles) ... How he could help heal the black community, as exemplified in the black liberation theology from which he has cherry-picked themes as well as how he can help Bob Jones types ... He had quite a bit of latitude. Depending on your perspective, he either refused to go there at all, or he used his church's Social Gospel references as the means he'd use to facilitate racial harmony. How a $1000 tax credit would help racism, I'm not entirely sure.

Some other random thoughts ....
a) A race / politics speech where the only mention of Dr. King was that Obama gave a speech on his birthday ... Shocking and I think this explains some of my adverse reaction, since the speech seems to ally Obama more with the Black Power strains of his pastor's theology rather than the King strains that they are ostensibly weaving together.

b) It is becoming clear that there is a significant link between his political philosophies and his religious beliefs. Economic redistribution, federalized education, and health care: the social gospel. I guess the change we would get with Obama is a more extreme Bush with respect to the role of religion in government, just on different issues.

c) The depth of error in Ferraro's and Wright's comments are not comparable.

d) I disagree with his diagnosis of white racism against blacks being a product of economic struggle. Although I would agree that this category represents the most vocal and visible white v. black racism, I suspect it's not the most damaging and may not even be the most prominent.

Without the economic poverty-racism connection among whites, the speech's proposals for healing the racial divide will get us absolutely nowhere. I am skeptical that economic populism will substantively affect the economic welfare of the lower classes, but I am doubly skeptical that more populism will lead to less racism.

e) I will repeat my first and primary reaction. His actions suggest that it's fine to listen to our crazy uncles -- on both sides -- as long as we don't act accordingly or unless it becomes a political hot potato. The key is to understand why they say what they say. Trying to get them to change their minds, if he ever even bothered, just isn't an idea worth commenting on in a critical speech about race in America. Kind of like Dr. King.
 
201Perm Dude
ID: 33239189
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 00:53
#196: I don't think this is something Obama would speak about in public. Though I have heard some (mostly far right dittoheads) claiming an argument along the lines of your first paragraph: Obama didn't talk with Rev Wright about it because he didn't say he did, and Obama is a pandering Democrat so it isn't possible for him to withhold this information. Nonsense, of course. These people want Obama and his pastor to have so close a relationship that Obama supports, encourages, and actually holds these hateful views. But not so close that Obama wouldn't speak with his pastor privately about the things he was saying.

I might be wrong here as well, but I haven't heard that Obama was actually at the service for the one sermon in question.

Madman: When you say "that this sort of thing had been going on" and then talk about "supported it" is sure sounds like Obama directly supports the actual hateful speech. Your point about the support being financial doesn't back away from the statement that Obama supports hate. Besides the obvious question of whether Rev Wright is such an evil person that there could be no possible reason for Obama to support his own church except to support a hateful sermon, this point reflects a very narrow view of that church.

Obama's greatest strength in his interpersonal relationships is his ability to take away from people something positive from nearly everyone. Even those who are political opposites (for instance). This is because there are very few people (if any) who are of such pure evil that they cannot contribute positively to society, even if one disagrees with their goals, ideals, or beliefs in many ways.

Obama's relationship with Rev Wright is obviously more nuanced that we are seeing. This doesn't make it insidious. More, that the relationship reflects how people normally are. Obama reminds us of that.

pd
 
202Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 04:04
BTW that 'chickens come home to roost' was cribbed right out of MalcomX and Wright gave a lifetime achievement award to Luis Farakhan. Anyone who thinks these soundbites are atypical is just wishful thinking.
 
203Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 05:10
Where Wright draws his 'Jesus is black' meme from. Wow! Yikes!

You don't think I actually buy any of that stuff I write $22K checks for, do you?
 
204Tree
ID: 15211194
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 06:20
so now we're going to link an author that had a book that Wright might have read to obama? oy.

never mind the we're not playing the seven degrees of kevin bacon here, but sheesh, if he's read Mein Kampf, is he also a nazi?
 
205Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 08:18
I don't think this is an unfair question:

How many poeople here are really familiar with black church services?
 
206Myboyjack
ID: 27210710
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 08:29
I'm familar with the black churches I've attended. So what? Are you suggesting that asking the congregation to pray that God Damn America and informing the faithful that White America is evil, created AIDS to get blacks, and iss the cause of all there troubles is just a black thing and we whitey wouldn't understand? Not my experience.
 
207Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 08:34
This isn't idle curiousity. He pays bigtime to be taught, and to teach others 'black liberation theology' of James Cone.

For the link challenged...
Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill gods who do not belong to the black community

... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.
Assuming Obama stands above that while paying handsomely for it might not deserve kneejerk acquiecence. It's only the presidency. We'll sleep on the decision to buy a car. Shouldn't we mull this over a while?

 
208walk
ID: 181472714
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 08:35
Man, this thread is good. You guys have really gotten into this. I guess I feel like several here that Obama has done well in addressing a very important, yet often unaddressed issue at this level, with thought, nuance and complexity. I believe there were different expectations of him (e.g. Madman seems to have wanted to hear this much earlier in Barack's career whereas I am very impressed that he not only attempted to deliver such a speech, but that he did it in a deep, thoughtful and modest way; e.g. "...a campaign as imperfect as mine").

His speech to me is another example of raising the bar of our supposed national leaders, to address an elephant that few leaders will address in 2 minutes, let alone 37. To provide context for current positions and fears, on both sides of the equation, to provide personal context for himself, and to offer hope and accountability on us, not just what he would do, to try and move forward. To me, this is an example of one facet of great leadership.
 
209Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 08:40
I wonder how common this type of rhetoric is in Black churches. A much better question actually is how common it is in black Chicago-area churches. Farrakhan is a powerful figure there. Since this issue began brewing up I've read a few things about the political space he occupies there.

I also wonder how common this rhetoric is in Wright's sermons. How many sermons have we herard clips from? Two? Three at most? He's been preaching for how long? How many of his recorded sermons does the media have access to? Yes I think it's entirely possibly that he has only expressed his most offensive opinions on a few rare occasions.
 
210walk
ID: 181472714
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 09:01
MITH, #209. I wonder, too. I think Obama tried to put in the context of history (slavery), discrimination, stereotyping, etc. (Katrina). I can see both sides to this (that kinda talk further divides and makes healing difficult, but also is based on real and not just "perceived" bias), and the bigger picture to me is "why are such sermons and beliefs discussed?" -- cos we still have serious racial issues in this country that have not been dealt with...
 
211Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 09:42
Re James Cone, just a little bit of objective research (a concept foreign to WND - and of course to B as well whenever he cites WND) offers a suggestion for what Cone might actually mean by "white enemy" and that he has backed off considerably from his earlier and more controversial positions.
Such rhetoric was not likely to win friends among white people, so consequently Cone became the target of a barrage of white criticism. What his critics failed to do was to read Cone's book from cover to cover, for in the final paragraph of his book he explains: "Being black in America has very little to do with skin color. To be black means that your heart, your soul, your mind, and your body are where the dispossessed are. … Being reconciled to God does not mean that one's skin is physically black. It essentially depends on the color of your heart, soul, and mind." For Cone, then, blackness is a symbol for the oppressed and whiteness is a symbol for the oppressor.

In his subsequent writings Cone consistently maintained the use of these symbols. In his second book, A Black Theology of Liberation (1970), Cone's rhetoric sounds strident if one fails to understand his use of the terms black and white. For example: "To be black is to be committed to destroying everything this country loves and adores." Or again, "Black theology will accept only a love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy." In looking back on these earlier books, Cone later admitted that he would no longer use such extreme language, but, nevertheless, his condemnation of racism and oppression was as strong as ever.

As early as 1977 he had come to see that Christian theology must develop a world-embracing vision that extends far beyond the immediate concerns of Black America and the particularities of the Christian faith. He wrote in Cross Currents in 1977: "I think that the time has come for black theologians and church people to move beyond a mere reaction to white racism in America and begin to extend our vision of a new socially constructed humanity in the whole inhabited world. … For humanity is whole, and cannot be isolated into racial and national groups." Cone readily admitted that in his earlier years as a theologian he failed to appreciate that he was guilty of male chauvinism and sexist language, especially with respect to Black women. In the introduction to the revised edition of Black Theology and Black Power he wondered aloud, "With black women playing such a dominant role in the African-American liberation struggle, past and present, how could I have been so blind?"
 
212Madman
ID: 230542010
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 10:41
PD -- One sermon? Obama himself says that he's been there when Wright has said these things. Obama didn't make it sound singular; I suspect he knows a lot more than we do. Given Wright's theologic influences, as noted by Boldwin, I can't believe this was an isolated incident.

BLT does have hope as an essential element. But it is hope built on victimology and despair. Two weeks ago I would have agreed with you that he bought into the hope and not the victimology, but I am now beginning to wonder if his own influences aren't a bit more nuanced. To be clear, I'm not talking about the God *#$%! America specifics here. I'm talking about acceptance of portions of BLT.

I entirely agree that Obama's relationship with his pastor is nuanced. I fail to see how that is germane to a broader discussion of race and politics. Does he think that the non-racist silent whites in the South in the 1950s didn't have "nuanced" relationships with their racist white neighbors? Is that "nuance" an acceptable excuse for their silence? Exactly what are we supposed to DO with this recognition of "nuance"?
 
213Madman
ID: 230542010
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 10:52
MITH 211 -- An oppressor/opprossed mindset begets racism. I fail to see how that approach is a useful step forward. Your link indicts rather than exonerates.

"Paradoxically, in some ways Malcolm has more to say to us today than Martin does. Malcolm had seen the nightmare early on and had learned to carve out hope. Martin began with the dream and faced the nightmare toward the end of his life when he began to see the massive poverty in the ghettos of Los Angeles and Chicago. He began to recognize the sickness of American society and widened his vision to include the black urban poor and the poor of the Third World."

This is what I was talking about when noting that Obama's omission of references to Dr. King was striking. BLT pushes well beyond at least the early King, and TUCC pushes for a strong religion/racism/economic vision. Obama appears to be aligning himself with that portion of the vision.
 
214Perm Dude
ID: 9211197
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 10:54
I don't think that a speech which, essentially, is Obama's impressions on race and his relationship with his former pastor, need to have some MLK reference threshhold in order to be authentic.
 
215Perm Dude
ID: 9211197
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 10:55
BTW, I'm not mentioning this in a challenging way. Obviously your notes on the point are your impressions, not a guide to what Obama should be saying.
 
216Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 11:02
Madman
I fail to see how that approach is a useful step forward.

Its not. And I'm not interested in exonerating or indicting James Cone. I'm just challenging some assertions in Baldwin's WorldNetDaily piece.
 
217Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 11:11
Why would Cone develop views espoused in the 'black liberation theology?'

Could it be that as a young man growing up in Arkansas, he witnessed the governor, Orval Faubus, call out the National Guard to keep 9 black students, selected on the criteria of excellent grades and attendance, from attending all-white Little Rock Central High?

Could it be that in Cone's childhood in Arkansas, there still existed lynchings as well as laws on the books that relegated blacks to subhuman status?

These aren't things Cone read about in history books, these are circumstances that he experienced growing up in Arkansas in the 40s and 50s.

It's impossible to throw the "hate" designation on blacks who experienced first hand this type of dehumanizing treatment without giving recognition to to the "hate" endured by them as well.

I'm not a white guilt guy, or a reparations advocate. But it's completely disingenous to label Cone and Wright as haters without seeking to understand the basis for their ideology, which is what's happening here. It's equally disingenous to extrapolate that Obama, who grew up in a different era and under a different set of circumstances and environments, must subscribe and approve of the most radical rhetoric of those who actually experienced the evils of segregation. WND wants so very much to label Obama, by means of association, with charges of anti-Americanism and racism, yet fails to acknowledge that Wright and Cone were victims themselves of anti-Americanism and racism. Their aim is to fan the flames of racism, by not only minimizing, but completely ignoring history.
 
218Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 11:27
Obama appears to be aligning himself with that portion of the vision.

Madman much of what you assert here runs contrary to many of his repeated themes in his speeches.

Two weeks ago I would have agreed with you that he bought into the hope and not the victimology, but I am now beginning to wonder if his own influences aren't a bit more nuanced. To be clear, I'm not talking about the God *#$%! America specifics here. I'm talking about acceptance of portions of BLT.

I guess the number of times I've heard and read Obama preach personal responsibility are all irrlevant because Obama has contributed money to his longtime pastor and moral advisor most probably disagrees with his statements on the issue.

And the omission of MLK in his speech about race relations (did you happen to notice that he didn't mention Malcolm X, either?) strengthens the liklihood that he supports a religion/racism/economic agenda?
 
219Perm Dude
ID: 9211197
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 11:34
because Obama has contributed money to his longtime pastor

That's what they seem to be saying. My understanding is that the money was donated to the church, not the pastor. A church which does a lot of good.
 
220Jag
ID: 171592622
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 11:38
c) The depth of error in Ferraro's and Wright's comments are not comparable.

Madman, you hit on a topic I found disturbing with Obama's speech.

Ferraro simply made the comment, that Obama is getting a free pass from the media and some politicians, because he is black, for this she is being compared to the hate speech of Wright.

Whether you agree with Ferraro's comment or not, the fact a benign statement, as this, would cause a furor of this magnitude, reflects the intolerance for any kind of racial debate.
 
221Perm Dude
ID: 9211197
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 11:51
Ferraro's comment wasn't benign, and Madman doesn't say that it is.

I agree that they are not comparable (just as Power's statement isn't comparable). But calling it benign doesn't help.
 
222Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 11:52
He didn't suggest or imply that what Farraro said was of the same depth or tone as Wright's statements. I watched some a$$hole on Brit Hume's panel last night make the same claim. He didn't accuse Ferraro of harboring "deep seated racial bias". He said it is wrong to dismiss her statement as such. What exactly did Obama say about Ferraro?
Some will see this as an attempt to justify or excuse comments that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the politically safe thing would be to move on from this episode and just hope that it fades into the woodwork. We can dismiss Reverend Wright as a crank or a demagogue, just as some have dismissed Geraldine Ferraro, in the aftermath of her recent statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias.

But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America - to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality.
He explicitly characterizes Wright's statements are indefensible and says it's wrong to dismiss Ferraro as a crank and her statement as harboring deep racial bias. The point is that you can't dismiss either of them.
 
223Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 12:19
I finally watched the whole speech last night and I have to say that he really hit it out of the ballpark. He took that accusation, that he is somehow guilty of the sins of Rev. Wright and used it as a platform that just furthered his reputation of a well spoken, natural leader. The speech was inspiring, his political skills extremely deft.

I was watching the News Hour with Jim Laher last night and they had a columnist from the New Republic who had nothing positive to say, making many of the same, tired responses that Madman is making here. It's just short of pathetic that people can be so jaded and partisan that they can't recognize that this was a landmark speech, that all they take away from it is, "I don't know that he answered white people's concerns. What did he hear in the past and why didn't he confront Wright before? Blah, blah, blech."

The polls are clear and it will be even clearer in November, the days of The New Republic readership being relevant in the national debate are OVER. The people are tired of Republican party and won't want to hear from them until they are tired of the Democrats. Whether that takes one year, two year, five, remains to be seen.

So, in summation, in my mind, what makes an effective speech by Sen. Obama is: It garners praise from the mainstream media, it inspires people to vote, and it makes Madman upset.
 
224Jag
ID: 171592622
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 12:26
You not only can dismiss Ferraro's comments for being a crank or harboring a deep racial bias, but should dismiss it. I am offended at the ease many will toss out the words racism and racist at others, who have an opposing point of view.
 
225Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 12:30
Victor Davis (Hanson) on The Speech

I predict Obama has bequeathed to us a new lexicon, a novel way to explain away racist outbursts.

Obama has sanctified the doctrines of moral equivalence (the private racial slight is balanced by the televised public hatred; everyone has a pastor in some ways like Wright, etc.) and contextualization (you must understand Wright's context and background; the good that he does; the protocols of the black church, etc.). The result is a lowering of the bar for the next racial outburst, since the perpetrator will immediately resort to the Obama defenses. And since we now know that Obama heard some of these "controversial" Wright sermons and did not object, we can see that his earlier, once just condemnation of someone like Imus — like many of his initial defenses of Wright—may now be inoperative:

"I understand MSNBC has suspended Mr. Imus. But I would also say that there's nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude. ... He didn't just cross the line. He fed into some of the worst stereotypes that my two young daughters are having to deal with today in America. The notions that as young African-American women — who I hope will be athletes — that that somehow makes them less beautiful or less important. It was a degrading comment. It's one that I'm not interested in supporting." (October 2007)

The new sophistic Obama, however, would recount to us all the charity work and good that Imus had once done and still does, that we don't understand the joshing of the shock-jock radio genre that winks and nods at controversy in theatrical ways, that Imus was a legend and pioneer among talk show hosts, that Obama's own black relatives have on occasions expressed prejudicial statements about whites similar to what Imus does, that we all have our favorite talk shows, whose hosts occasionally cross the line, and that he can't quite remember whether he'd ever been on the Imus show, or whether he ever had heard Imus say anything that was insensitive — and therefore he could not and would not disown a Don Imus.

This is the real message of the Obama racial transcendence candidacy.

 
226Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 12:31
Huh? You're calling Ferraro a racist?
 
227Perm Dude
ID: 9211197
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:01
Obama is far different than Hanson would have us, or himself, believe. His comments of Rev Wright aren't transferable. And if they are, you also would need to transfer Obama's strong and clear rejection of the comments in question.

Obama is saying that comments like these by blacks who came of age in the 60s need to be understood in their historical context. Not to be accepted, but to be understood. Hanson would have us take specific contextual comments on Rev Wright and apply them to everyone (in other words, to do the exact opposite of what Obama is urging). Has Imus offered up anything about his comments similar to what Obama has said is the context for Rev Wright?

----------------

Many of the negative comments about Obama and Rev Wright are coming from the Right (no surprise). I'm kicking around in my head an analogy about Rev Wright being the head of the his church and the appropriateness and type of protest by the members of the church and that of George W. Bush, as head of the United States government and the appropriateness and type of protest by US citizens. Consider this a placeholder...
 
228Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:27
Has Imus offered up anything about his comments similar to what Obama has said is the context for Rev Wright? - PD

Imus has apologized, Wright has not.
 
229Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:29
But I would also say that there's nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. - Obama

- Months before Wright resigned as advisor to Obama's campaign.
 
230Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:30
Imus has apologized, Wright has not.

Holy crap SO WHAT? Obama has not called on anyone to "disown" Don Imus.
 
231Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:31
BTW don't think for a moment he pulled an all-nighter coming up with that speech. He's been working on that one for a decade.
 
232Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:32
MITH

Reread Obama's statement quoted in #229.
 
233Perm Dude
ID: 9211197
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:35
The point wasn't whether Imus recognized his mistakes while Wright did not (after all, Obama condemned both). It is whether the exact same contextual standards should be applied to both.

Hanson says Obama's "standard" is that he cannot condemn Imus' statements (despite Obama condemning Wright's) because Obama is also able to see the good in people. This is really nonsense. The ability to see people in shades of grey rather than all evil or all good is an adult characteristic. Hanson would have us believe that Obama is advocating the opposite of what Obama actually is.
 
234Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:40
The statement about Imus is the worst thing you have to pin on him so far.

Clearly, that analogy was a sharper dig at Imus than the truth permitted. BFD. Put up the overall consistancy of his rhetoric against any recent Presidenntial candidate with a chance at the nomination.
 
235Perm Dude
ID: 9211197
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:43
#231: Given his background, this has probably been in his head for a long time. But actually writing the speech does take time!
 
236Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:47
Is Obama willing to be just as understanding and complex with Imus as he is with Wright? Of course not. The logical effect tho is to give Imus a whole new defense and it remains to be seen if the great uniter and healer is willing to offer this olive branch to everyone or just extend it to his own when he needs to save his own butt.
 
237Perm Dude
ID: 9211197
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 13:51
His relationship with Imus isn't even on the same level as his relationship with Wright. Saying he should give a major speech on Imus is just silly.

People were demanding that Obama explain himself and his relationship with Rev Wright. And you are saying, essentially, now he has to explain himself to the same level about Imus? Even though he didn't "support" Imus, wasn't married by him, and so on?
 
238Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 14:03
How can B be sure sure that he wouldn't afford Imus statements any such nuance? He doesn't have a problem with seeing Ferraro's statements as something other than harboring deep-seated racial bias.
 
239Madman
ID: 230542010
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 14:09
Imus / Ferraro / Obama triangle is a useful set of hypotheticals.

First recall that on March 11, Obama was calling for Ferraro's dismissal from the Clinton campaign:

Obama called Ferraro's comments "patently absurd."

"I don't think Geraldine Ferraro's comments have any place in our politics or in the Democratic Party. They are divisive. I think anybody who understands the history of this country knows they are patently absurd," he told the Allentown Morning Call. "And I would expect that the same way those comments don't have a place in my campaign they shouldn't have a place in Senator Clinton's either."

Obama senior adviser David Axelrod said Ferraro should be removed from her position with the Clinton campaign because of her comments.

"The bottom line is this, when you wink and nod at offensive statements, you're really sending a signal to your supporters that anything goes," Axelrod said in a conference call with reporters on Tuesday.


link

Now, you might more accurately re-examine Obama's speech -- from MITH's quote above -- using the proper attribution rather than the passive voice / generic "we":

We can dismiss Reverend Wright as a crank or a demagogue, just as some have dismissed (I called for the dismissal of) Geraldine Ferraro, in the aftermath of her recent statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias.

But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making (I did make) the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America - to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality.


MITH is correct. He didn't equate the two. He held Ferraro to a higher standard. Perhaps Obama has achieved a new level of wisdom in the past 8 days. Many have commented that his speech presumes an intelligence of the American electorate. My perception is the opposite, that he was preaching and hoping we *wouldn't* think about it. Just one of the many reasons I thought that the speech was off-target.
 
240Perm Dude
ID: 9211197
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 14:10
The irony with Imus is that both Imus and Obama agree: Imus' comments were wrong. What's to explain?
 
241Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 14:33
I don't believe it's fair to automatically attribute Axelrod's comments to that of Obama. I've not heard Obama publicly repudiate Axelrod, but when does that ever happen in any campaign without the media first holding it against the candidate?

I'm poking around but I don't see that anyone has asked Obama about Axelrod's statement.
 
242Jag
ID: 171592622
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 15:15
You can't be the Great Uniter and throw people like Ferraro under the bus. I had no problems with his association of Wright, we all have crazy uncles, that we don't like talking about, but comparing her with Wright's hate speech and mentioning harboring a deep racial bias is wrong. Ferraro is about as Left-wing as they come and comments like those in Obama's speech will not only steer away Moderates and Conservatives, but divide the Democrats.
 
243Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 15:22
Read it again, jag. You completely misunderstand him. He's saying it is wrong to think Ferraro harboring racial bias.
 
244Jag
ID: 171592622
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 16:00
I read it correctly and the 2 should not be compared. Hardly anyone was mentioning Ferraro could have a deep racial bias until he did it. It would like if I made these comments.

I don't believe Tree slept with that goat. I know many are positive he is a goat fornicator, but we should all wait on the DNA evidence. We need to all just get along normal people and goat fornicators too.

And if these comments were made in the political arena, 20 news stations would be questioning Tree on sexual relations with goats and talking about the subject for weeks. Hannity and Colmes would have some loon from PETA and a redneck from Kentucky debating the topic. Fox News would be calling MITH asking if he ever seen Tree with goats. PD would be doing phone interviews with CNN denouncing bestiality, Zen would be quoted in High Times as seeing pink giraffes, while in a drug induced stupor, and Tree not trying to rape them.
 
245Perm Dude
ID: 9211197
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 16:04
Obama didn't say that Ferraro had deep-seated racial bias. He said that some have said so and dismissed her (just as some have done the same about Wright).

His point (which you must have missed) is about the dismissal of these people because of a bias about their comments. It is about refusing to talk about race at all, by labelling some people as holding a deep-seated racial bias and therefore unworthy of talking about.
 
246prefek
ID: 482491910
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 16:22
Hey people. I barely post on this forum, but I figure some of you research-minded posters could dig something up for me. I found a nifty spreadsheet that supposedly has all the votes that Clinton and Obama have disagreed on since being in the senate together. Among those is this Mark Dayton (D-MN) amendment that limits interest rate from credit lenders to 30% annual. The voting had an odd pattern, with the Democrats basically split in half: 24 Yea votes with a coalition of moderate dems like Bayh (D-IN) and liberal dems like Boxer (D-CA) along with Hillary Clinton; and Republicans all solidly voting Nay with some moderate dems like Nelson (D-NE) and liberal dems like Leahy (D-VT) and Barack Obama joining them.

Unfortunately, my trusty bellweather, Feingold, abstained so I have no idea why the odd split. So maybe someone here could figure out what's up. My only guess is maybe there was some alternative amendment that some of the 'Nay' dems preferred. Any idea why Obama voted 'Nay' on this one, people?
 
247Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 16:24
How can B be sure sure that he wouldn't afford Imus statements any such nuance? - MITH

This is how.
Obama First White House Contender to Call for Imus' Firing Over Racial Slur
 
248Jag
ID: 171592622
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 16:25
Could you rephrase that, PD. I am not sure what your interpetation is. Are saying Ferraro's comments should be debated or dismissed?
 
249Perm Dude
ID: 9211197
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 16:41
#246: Because Obama thought the 30% was too high.

Jag: Obama wasn't making a point about the comments by either Ferraro or Wright. He was saying that people avoid talking about race by marginalizing people like Ferraro & Wright by saying that their (Ferraro & Wright)'s comments are just out of the mainstream and cranky. So instead of talking about race (and either confirming or replying to the comments) we tend just to call them all cranks.

Charles Murray (the author of The Bell Curve) was also a guy who got dismissed in the same way.

So in answer to your quesiton, I guess I'm saying "debated." Or, at least not dismissed out of hand.
 
250Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 16:45
Baldwin
This is how.
BZZZT. Obama removed Wright from his campaign. the nuance with regard to Wright is that he can condemn the statements and remove the man from the campaign but still not disown him.

Obama condemned what Imus said and supported MSNBC when they let him go. But he has not called on anyone to "disown" him. Or does Imus get a higher standard for nuance from you?

Further, contrary to what ABC says, he did not "call for" Imus to be fired. Imus supported MSNBC for dropping their simulcast after the fact. In fact I recall a Boston Globe aricle from that time claiming that black groups were growing increasiingly annoyed with Obama for not commenting over the Imus incident for days after it happened. In fact I believe Obama's first statement on the issue was that one, on the day that MSNBC pulled the simulcast, something like 5 days after Imus made his comment.
 
251Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 16:51
Jag
Read it this way:
some have dismissed Ferraro['s] statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias...

But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now.


He's saying it's wrong to dismiss or ignore what both Ferraro and Wright said.

Note that he clearly distinguishes between them, Wright's statements as indefensible, and Ferrero's as perhaps not as biased as they appear. What they have in common is not that they are similar, but that neither should be ignored.
 
252Madman
ID: 230542010
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 17:01
MITH 241 -- I don't believe it's fair to automatically attribute Axelrod's comments to that of Obama.

From my link in 239:

Obama's quote: "I don't think Geraldine Ferraro's comments have any place in our politics or in the Democratic Party. They are divisive. I think anybody who understands the history of this country knows they are patently absurd," he told the Allentown Morning Call. "And I would expect that the same way those comments don't have a place in my campaign they shouldn't have a place in Senator Clinton's either."

That quote is on CNN and elsewhere, like here: More info. (and a repeat of the quote)

Gotta give Obama kudos. His speech yesterday was the most back-handed and slippery apology for past personal behavior (his attitude to Ferraro) I've ever heard. Gotta keep add that passive voice / "we" stuff to my bag of tricks for my wife ... although I doubt she'll be as lenient on me as most Obama supporters are of him.
 
253Perm Dude
ID: 9211197
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 17:11
You are conflating Obama's call for the dismissal of Ferraro from Clinton's campaign, with the dismissal of her comments by those who say she has a "deep-seated bias" as a way for people to avoid talking about race. I don't know if this is intentional on your part or not. But they are not the same.
 
254Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 17:14
Yeah, Madman, I've seen the excerpt from the interview. It was an off-the-cuff answer to a question posed from the Morning Call's resident blogger. Saying that Ferraro's particular statement doesn't have a place in the campaign doesn't mean that the same as a call for Ferraro to be removed from the campaign.

Incidentially, I was disappointed with Axelrod's call for Ferraro to be removed and more disappointed with Obama's failure to backtrack from it. I believe Ferraro's statement was honest and was not intended as a cheap shot and I think she expected Obama would appreciate the candor. And I think it most likely that Obama knows he overreacted and reacted too quickly.

But I don't care how honest a candidate is, I've never seen one go back and denounce attack statements from within their campaign if the media doesn't call them on it first.

I've looked for a statement from Obama on Axelrod and haven't found one. In fact I havent come across any transcripts of anything Obama said anytime shortly after the Morning Call interview.
 
255Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 18:07
I'm sorry, 'we' didn't know the draft would conflict with our anniversary plans, did we?
 
256Madman
ID: 14139157
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 18:15
But I don't care how honest a candidate is, I've never seen one go back and denounce attack statements from within their campaign if the media doesn't call them on it first. Aside from Sen. McCain, I'm with you. Can't think of any others.
 
257Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 18:19
Which statement would that be?
 
258Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 18:40
"but I would also say that there's nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group" - Obama re Imus

In view of Wright's position in Obama's staff which he held for weeks after Hannity pitched a fit over Wright's soudbites covering the last 20 years...we would have to call Obama's quote above a flat out lie.
 
259Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 18:51
#258

Except few people consider white people an ethnic group.
 
260Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 18:53
My, hypocrisy is a convenient charge for you today, isn't it, Baldwin? Thought that charge was supposed to be a tool of the left. You're memory is getting worse. I've already conceded that one, Baldwin, after the first time you brought it up, like 5 hours ago in post 234.

A flat out lie? Possibly. Or maybe an overexageration or a poorly thought-out response.

As I said, I agree that particular dig was too sharp to stand up to his own personal standards at the time. As I also said, I'll put up the integrity of Obama's rhetoric against any recent Presidential candidate with decent a chance at a major party nomination.
 
261Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 19:18
Madman

The religious world certainly has it's Baptist biddy who really doesn't believe she will be tortured forever for gossiping, the Catholic who uses everything from birth control all the way to even abortion, etc...all while regularly contributing.

Obama could be telling the truth that he was taking it all in with a grain of salt.

How do we find a more useful indicator than just taking Obama at his word that he wasn't in lockstep with Wright's black libration theology?
 
262Madman
ID: 14139157
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 20:39
PD 253 -- My point isn't literal. It's that Obama was the one going after Ferraro. I think a fair reading of his speech is that he now realizes that this was a mistake and that he should have considered Ferraro's upbringing and what brought her to this point. He was too quick to declare that sort of rhetoric off-limits, because that rhetoric, although divisive, apparently reveals deep truths about a segment of our society that is hurting (white immigrants, lower white classes). He didn't want to come out and apologize directly, but he was able to indirectly reference his actions vis a vis the Ferraro firestorm. I don't agree with Obama's tolerence for crap spewed from well-educated and privileged Americans like Wright or Ferraro, but I'm at least glad he's now cleared the air. Give Ferraro some cheaper healthcare and protect her from Canadian unfair labor practices and she'd probably feel differently, I guess. I'm becoming an Obamican!

MITH -- His immediate denunciation of Campbell(?) that radio talk show guy his campaign invited. The word Hussein was too much for McCain to bear. There are also numerous press reports of McCain going after McCain supporter at rallies for making inappropriate jokes at the expense of Bill Clinton's sexual past, among other things.

Bold -- good question. That's the sort of thing I was hoping he'd address. What sort of civil rights will his administration pursue? Just today the Supreme Court issued a ruling limiting the ability of prosecutors to use racial profiling in jury selection. Probably a good decision, IMO. Written by Alito, as well. Obama -- who opposed Alito -- hasn't touched the case in public. Does he agree or disagree with the decision? How would he help enforce? He doesn't have to answer all questions, but he could start by describing *something* that he'd actually do ...

I think his wife's beliefs are the best external signals we have about what he himself believes.

I'm not too worried about his personal religious beliefs, although I do strongly disagree with his use of religion to justify political decisions. Just like he is now conveniently arguing that his political / economic remedies are just the thing to help salve racial tensions in this country.

I'm more concerned about his tolerance for BLT-types (crudely speaking) in his administrative appointments. What does he mean when he's talking about criminal justice system reform? How will he do that? What will the EEOC look like under Obama?

I know very little about his prospective civil rights staff, aside from a couple of Clinton-era appointees that were a bit too far to the left for good old BC. I think it's important for white America to bear in mind that Wright simply isn't that controversial a figure. I don't think Obama was lying when he said that very thing to America last year. He just didn't fully understand how different the rest of America is. Now he does.

And Obama's dead-on correct about the fact that this corruption has been breeding inside America for decades, and it does have at its root a response to evil. And we do need to deal with it as a nation, but whites, in the eyes of many, don't have the moral authority to address the problem. We can argue until we are blue in the face that the US government didn't start AIDS. But until someone from the inside says it, it won't make much difference.

Therefore, white America has been waiting for an insider to help steer those elements of black culture back from the edge. Looks like Obama is going to refuse that assignment, but perhaps he'll open the door for someone else.
 
263Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 20:56
LOL
 
264Perm Dude
ID: 352591916
Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 21:10
How do we find a more useful indicator than just taking Obama at his word that he wasn't in lockstep with Wright's black libration theology?

You mean, assuming everything Obama has said, written, voted on, or sponsored to the contrary (which is nearly everything) is a lie, how do we know?

Hmmmm.

There are no pleasing some paranoids, it seems.

:)
 
265Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 00:28
Yeah, just volumes in that log.
 
266Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 00:32
Break it down for us, PD. List that long string of achievements and analyze it vis-a-vis black liberation theology.
 
267Perm Dude
ID: 352591916
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 00:43
*sigh*

No. If you believe Obama is about blaming whites then you really don't get anything about him.
 
268Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 04:32
HR
Obama gave a nice speech, except for everything he said about race. He apparently believes we're not talking enough about race. This is like hearing Britney Spears say we're not talking enough about pop-tarts with substance-abuse problems.

By now, the country has spent more time talking about race than John Kerry has talked about Vietnam, John McCain has talked about being a POW, John Edwards has talked about his dead son and Al Franken has talked about his USO tours.

But the "post-racial candidate" thinks we need to talk yet more about race. How much more? I had had my fill by around 1974. How long must we all marinate in the angry resentment of black people?

As an authentic post-racial American, I will not patronize blacks by pretending Obama's pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, is anything other than a raving racist loon. If a white pastor had said what Rev. Wright said – not about black people, but literally, the exact same things – I think we'd notice that he's crazier than Ward Churchill and David Duke's love child. (Indeed, both Churchill and Wright referred to the attacks of 9/11 as the chickens coming "home to roost.")

Imagine a white pastor saying: "Racism is the American way. Racism is how this country was founded, and how this country is still run. ... We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority. And believe it more than we believe in God."

Imagine a white pastor calling Condoleezza Rice, "Condoskeezza Rice."

Imagine a white pastor saying: "No, no, no, God damn America – that's in the Bible for killing innocent people! God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human! God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme!"

We treat blacks like children, constantly talking about their temper tantrums right in front of them with airy phrases about black anger. I will not pat blacks on the head and say, "Isn't that cute?" As a post-racial American, I do not believe "the legacy of slavery" gives black people the right to be permanently ill-mannered.

Obama tried to justify Wright's deranged rants by explaining that "legalized discrimination" is the "reality in which Rev. Wright and other African-Americans of his generation grew up." He said that a "lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one's family, contributed to the erosion of black families."

That may accurately describe the libretto of "Porgy and Bess," but it has no connection to reality. By Rev. Wright's own account, he was 12 years old and was attending an integrated school in Philadelphia when Brown v. Board of Education was announced, ending "separate but equal" schooling.

Meanwhile, at least since the Supreme Court's decision in University of California v. Bakke in 1978 – and obviously long before that, or there wouldn't have been a case or controversy for the court to consider – it has been legal for the government to discriminate against whites on the basis of their race.

Consequently, any white person 30 years old or younger has lived, since the day he was born, in an America where it is legal to discriminate against white people. In many cases it's not just legal, but mandatory, for example, in education, in hiring and in Academy Award nominations.

So for half of Rev. Wright's 66 years, discrimination against blacks was legal – though he never experienced it personally because it existed in a part of the country where he did not live. For the second half of Wright's life, discrimination against whites was legal throughout the land.

Discrimination has become so openly accepted that – in a speech meant to tamp down his association with a black racist – Obama felt perfectly comfortable throwing his white grandmother under the bus. He used her as the white racist counterpart to his black racist "old uncle," Rev. Wright.

First of all, Wright is not Obama's uncle. The only reason we indulge crazy uncles is that everyone understands that people don't choose their relatives the way they choose, for example, their pastors and mentors. No one quarrels with the idea that you can't be expected to publicly denounce your blood relatives.

But Wright is not a relative of Obama's at all. Yet, Obama cravenly compared Wright's racist invective to his actual grandmother, who "once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe."

Rev. Wright accuses white people of inventing AIDS to kill black men, but Obama's grandmother – who raised him, cooked his food, tucked him in at night, and paid for his clothes and books and private school – has expressed the same feelings about passing black men on the street that Jesse Jackson has.

Unlike his "old uncle" – who is not his uncle – Obama had no excuses for his grandmother. Obama's grandmother never felt the lash of discrimination! Crazy grandma doesn't get the same pass as the crazy uncle; she's white. Denounce the racist!

Fine. Can we move on now?

No, of course, not. It never ends. To be fair, Obama hinted that we might have one way out: If we elect him president, then maybe, just maybe, we can stop talking about race.
 
269Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 04:46
"What we need in our next commander in chief is not a stubborn refusal to acknowledge reality or empty rhetoric about 3 a.m. phone calls," he said. "What we need is a pragmatic strategy that focuses on fighting our real enemies..." - Obama

We can hope Wright's definition of 'the real enemy' fell on deaf ears. We can hope, yes we can.
 
270Tree
ID: 45229204
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 06:40
We can hope Wright's definition of 'the real enemy' fell on (Obama's) deaf ears. We can hope, yes we can.

while definitely a cute play on Obama's words of "hope", if you're actually even remotely serious with your statement, then you are so far off the ball, there really isn't much hope for you.

i can just see it now...
"My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws White People forever. The bombing begins in five minutes..."

thanks Baldwin. that was a good laugh to start my day...
 
271Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 09:07
So for half of Rev. Wright's 66 years, discrimination against blacks was legal � though he never experienced it personally because it existed in a part of the country where he did not live.

An amazing head-in-the-sand statement if I've ever heard it. There was no discrimination anywhere around the guy. No siree. He couldn't possibly have faced it himself. No doubt he's all riled up about stuff he read in the paper. We need to stop teaching those niggers how to read, dammit. Get 'em all worked up and all.
 
272Razor
ID: 420241513
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 09:36
Well, this line is about where I stopped taking this author seriously and stopped reading:

"How long must we all marinate in the angry resentment of black people?"

Baldwin, WND is garbage. Complete garbage. That you don't recognize it as such reflects poorly on you.
 
273Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 09:39
It is the opposite of Obama, at least we can say that. It is all about "dismissing" the question of race from one's mind. The "nothing to see here anymore" attitude, rather than trying to engage the problem head-on.

It would have been a lot easier for Obama to take the WND attitude, to dismiss Wright and tell them he (and the country) are far beyond that rhetoric. But he didn't.

Can you imagine any other politician these days with a speech like that? Brave.
 
274Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 10:32
Sorry I don't give Wright a free pass for espousing in general terms the same racial armagedon Charles Manson and 'the Turner Diaries' were all about.

Anyone intimately involved with someone like that has some explainin' to do.

While Obama decides how he is going to distance himself from Wright without distancing himself from Wright, perhaps he can decide if he really intends to trancend racial problems or wallow in them.

PD

WND is a clipping service pointing out news stories from around the world revealing truths you'd rather pretend didn't exist and dots you'd rather not see connected. That you'd rather cover your eyes and ears and hum real loud than look or listen to anything that would harsh your mellow doesn't speak very well of you.

Unless you think you can prove every news service and newspaper they've ever linked to garbage, complete garbage, you had best be quiet and stop proving yourself a fool.
 
275Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 10:34
I've really got to thank Coulter for educating me. I now realize that since 1978 – and obviously long before that, it is I, as a white person, who has been the victim of racial discrimination.

Let's all thank Ann for raising the level of political dialogue in this country. This country really should be concentrating on one sentence Obama said about his grandmother...as opposed to President Bush's non descript speech on the 5th anniversary of the Iraq invasion, explaining in detail how we are safer(cough* cough*)..as opposed to Republican presidential nominee McCain warning us that Iran continues to arm and train Sunni militias - what? Shiite militias?(they all look the same to me too)..as opposed to an economy that it is on the brink of a collapse that hasn't been seen since 1929.
 
276Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 10:39
Sorry I don't give Wright a free pass for espousing in general terms the same racial armagedon Charles Manson and 'the Turner Diaries' were all about.

Anyone who attempts to make this analogy is the one who has some explainin' to do.

 
277Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 10:41
Baldwin: I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you didn't notice that it was me that called WND garbage. I do believe that--particularly editorials such as this one in which the writer is much more interested in attacking Obama than anything else--the search for the perfect written disembowelment continues on the Right.

It is so 1990's.
 
278Tree
ID: 3533298
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 11:09
While Obama decides how he is going to distance himself from Wright without distancing himself from Wright, perhaps he can decide if he really intends to trancend racial problems or wallow in them.

um, he had this speech the other day...i swear i originally thought you heard/read it, but maybe you didn't?

it's the one we've been talking about, btw.

WND is a clipping service pointing out news stories from around the world revealing truths you'd rather pretend didn't exist and dots you'd rather not see connected. That you'd rather cover your eyes and ears and hum real loud than look or listen to anything that would harsh your mellow doesn't speak very well of you.

you keep telling yourself that, but i'm pretty sure your second sentence is much more applicable to you than to just about anyone else here.

 
279Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 11:10
Baldwin: I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you didn't notice that it was me that called WND garbage - PD

Yes I noticed it was you, thus the ... PD ... standing all by itself preceding my comments to you about it.
 
280Jag
ID: 171592622
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 11:10
There can never be any serious political discourse on racial issues in this country. Liberals and the media will not allow it. Debate has to be a two way street. Anything even slightly different from Whitey is bad and you will be tagged as having a deep racial bias.
 
281Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 11:17
FTR there is plenty of original content on WND, such as the linked article in post 203. Baldwin infamously and disingenuously defends WND as a "clipping service" all the time, he himself covering eyes and ears and singing lalala whenever WND's tortured context original content articles are pointed out to him in response.
 
282Tree
ID: 3533298
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 11:27
There can never be any serious political discourse on racial issues in this country. Liberals and the media will not allow it. Debate has to be a two way street. Anything even slightly different from Whitey is bad and you will be tagged as having a deep racial bias.

shut up. seriously.
 
283Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 11:29
There can never be any serious political discourse on racial issues in this country. Liberals and the media will not allow it.

That's funny. Obama gives it a pretty good try with a speech this week and when I turn on the news some guy on Brit Hume's show tells me that Obama's speech is despicable for claiming that Geraldine Ferraro is the same thing as Jeremiah Wright.

And then I come on to Rotoguru.com and see read Jag posts saying exactly the same thing.

It's the liberal's fault that we can't talk seriously about race.

Just like it's the liberal media that coddles liberal politicians and lets every one of their gross indescretions pass through with the hope that no one will notice. Why, just look at the free pass they gave to Barak Obama this week.
 
284Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 11:52
Madman 262
His immediate denunciation of Campbell(?) that radio talk show guy his campaign invited.

McCain deserves to be credited for slamming Campbel but to my knowledge he's just a local conservative radio host who introduced McCain at a rally, not a member of McCain's staff. Don't get me wrong, it shows guts and conviction to do that, but it's not nearly the same as volunteering a public reprimand of a senior member of your staff for questionable statements. I'll grant you that your McCain/Campbell example is the closest I've seen (or that I recall) but I'll maintain what I said:
I don't care how honest a candidate is, I've never seen one go back and denounce attack statements from within their campaign if the media doesn't call them on it first.
 
285Myboyjack
ID: 44249198
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 11:54
Campbell = Cunningham
 
286Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 11:56
Thanks MBJ. Was lazily assuming MM had remembered it right even tho he indicated he might not.
 
287walk
ID: 181472714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 12:02
NYTimes, Kristoff: Obama and Race
 
288Myboyjack
ID: 44249198
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 12:04
Billy Cinningham is on 700 WLW. He's pretty much a loudmouth comedy act posing as a cartoonish Cincinnati conservative. Makes a lot of cash doing endorsements and owns a kick-a$$ sports bar/BBQ in Covington, KY. He's a joke.
 
289walk
ID: 181472714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 12:05
I think the theme of Kristoff's piece, which is hard to dispute given that, if I am correct, everyone on this board is white (or non-black), is that it's hard for us to completely opine on this issue and Barack Obama if we are all of the same ethnic background. It's only one piece of the pie, but a very relevant piece in providing context and background to Obama's speech and presence in that church.
 
290walk
ID: 181472714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 12:08
McCain, from what I saw, and where I stand, was derided for denouncing Campbell AFTER all of the crowd had dispersed. Had he done so during the actual speech in front of the audience, instead of merely in front of the press, now THAT would have been a REAL denunciation. McCain's claim was that he did not know what the guy had said until after the speech was over. He knew what kinda guy this was, and his campaign signed the guy up to introduce McCain. I say feh to McCain's supposed "denunciation." What's real about McCain is that he does not even know the difference between sunni and shia, and yet is branding himself as the foreign policy expert. Oy veh.
 
291Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 12:13
Anyone who attempts to make this analogy is the one who has some explainin' to do. - PV

Wright gets his inspiration from Cone who wrote -
'Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.

Cone when asked where his brand of theology is practiced points to Obama's church. Wright when offered the chance to deny this on Hannity and Colmes, refused to deny it.

Here's a bit of hope for you tho. Wright is actually able to write a sermon that does not involve blaming white people for all the world's problems. [unless I missed that part][or unless the point has been made so often there that it goes with out saying when discussing problems]
 
292sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 12:17
Boldy...reread 211 above.
 
293Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 12:29
Sarge,
Baldwin isn't interested context when he's busy judging and condemning. Might as well let him be.
 
294Tree
ID: 3533298
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 12:29
Wright is actually able to write a sermon that does not involve blaming white people for all the world's problems.

since you are, now, apparently, the de facto expert on Wright's sermons, i'm curious as to how many of his sermons over the past 20 years have involved blaming white people.

your implication is the vast majority of them involve blaming white people. over 20 years, let's say he did 50 Sunday sermons a year, that's 1,000.

so, of that thousand, what - 800? 900? blamed white people.

please - enlighten me.
 
295sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 12:36
RE 293...Oh I know MITH. Its just become somewhat entertaining, to see how deeply into the sand he is willing to burrow.
 
296Jag
ID: 171592622
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 13:08
Blaming Whitey is the only allowable politically correct stance with the Democrats. Any deviation and you will be Ferraroized. This has done more harm to the average black family than racism in the past few decades. There are many racial problems in America, it is a shame we will never be able to address them.
 
297Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 13:15
Well, Obama agrees that blaming whitey is a problem (as is dismissing racism as being something only in the past). I don't know where you get that being racist is the only allowable stance among Democrats. Rev Wright's remarks have been almost universally rejected by Democrats.

You see what you want to see, I suppose. In a thread about Obama you are always free to say what you want to about him. But it seems silly to say that all Democrats have a particular stance on race in the portion of this thread about Obama's speech which had the exact opposite position.

pd
 
298sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 13:17
<---Thinks Jag needs to reread 211 too.

Havent heard/read everything Obama has ever said, but I dont recall him one time, blaming "whitey". Though I do recall, multiple instances of the black community deriding Cosby/Oprah, for daring to blame the black community for SOME of their own problems.

Discourse Jag, will be possible when you quit interjecting universal labels (innaccurately I would add), to that same discourse.
 
299Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 13:21
Yeah, Jag. If only someone had the balls to say that the black community needs to take full responsibility for own lives, demand more from fathers, spend more time with their children, read to them, teach them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their lives, that they are in control of their own destiny. Someone who acknowledges that America's welfare policies may have contributed to the economic struggles of the black community. Right Jag? When are we ever going to have a liberal leader who will acknowledge these things?
 
300Tree
ID: 3533298
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 13:26
Blaming Whitey is the only allowable politically correct stance with the Democrats.

actually, i blame the Jews.
 
301Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 13:27
#212: By nuanced I mean "grown up." Like not allowing his former sermon's selected quotes to trump virtually everything Obama has stated or written.

Look for the words between the words all you want. But in the end you have to take a man who has written and spoken consistently and for some time at his word, even if that word goes against what his former pastor has said. Otherwise you have no grounding for believing anything about anyone--hardly a conservative trait.

You are wildly overthinking this thing, Madman.
 
302Jag
ID: 171592622
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 13:28
Mith, that is exactly right. I know it has been said by some black leaders, but it has been overshadowed by the blame white people hate speech.
 
303Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 13:30
Yeah, Jag,too bad Obama can't come up with a speech that includes stuff like that.
 
304Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 13:33
Yeah--maybe we need someone who has both black and white backgrounds. Some inner-city experience to get a good grounding in the African-American experience, but someone with foreign experience as well to understand how America's overseas influence is important.

Someone who preaches responsibility and self-reliance rather than blaming others.

Who? Who could that be?
 
305Tree
ID: 3533298
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 13:44
posts 296, 299, 302, and 303 are positively...something...

astonishing, maybe? god. i don't even know if that's the right word, but i suppose it'll work. lol. oh, man. this is rich.
 
306walk
ID: 181472714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 14:21
MITH and PD, I laud your efforts and agree 100%. You are wise and see things. I feel that if folks don't like Obama because of his political views and policies, that is very valid. However, the analysis about his being a part of this church as indicative of some deep-seeded racially divisive attitude is off-base, and IMO, ethnocentric. I'm not saying Obama is perfect, but he is so clearly head's and tails different and more open and communicative and smart (Hillary is smart, too, but it seems that McCain is going down a Reagan alzheimer's path) than the other two candidates.

I also believe it is semi-unbelievable that folks cannot also see that here, now, in front of our eyes is a gifted leader who is willing to TRY and do things that few leaders even have the freakin skills or guts to discuss. And these are clearly the things our country does need now.

How can we not give this guy a try? How can the Republicans put up a person who largely is endorsing failed policies of a president with abysmal approval ratings? How can the Democratic party not rally behind a visionary leader who attempts to build bridges and not "fight"...? I just don't get it. Well, I do. It's fear of change...and it's a natural human characteristic, but just trying to take a 30,000 foot view, can anyone really believe that McCain's policies, which are so like Bush, be what our country needs right now...?...Given how they have not panned out over the past 8 years. Can anyone believe that Hillary's leadership qualities and Clintonian baggage are what the country needs, now? How can the Democratic party not be rushing to end the endless Clinton-Obama contest as we see the party and the platform and the potential to win the 2008 national election decrease with the constant in-fighting (mainly orchestrated by Clinton, IMO). It's mind-boggling to me.
 
307sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 14:29
Becasue walk, we all...every one of us, believes that "we" are "right" and the rest are "wrong". Hence, the HC supporters fervently work to get her numbers up. The McCain backer do the same. Obamas endorsers do likewise. Then, you have those who are so steeped in party rhetoric and toeing the party-line, that truth and reality dont even enter into their decision making process. They simply look at the party of affiliation, and not out of endorsing their parties candidate, but opposing the other candidate, work AGAINST that candidate.

Just look throught these threads on this forum. I've been derided and ridiculed, for the presumption that I ever honestly considered McCain. (And I did FTR, but his own actions lsot him my vote.) Others here, ppost not to endorse/explain their candidate, but to bash and oppose the "other guy". Just extrapolate that across the country, and we have a very clear example of precisely what Obama wants to try and correct/remedy/address.
 
308walk
ID: 181472714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 14:46
I hearya, sarge33rd. I try to call 'em like I see 'em, but am also biased towards the Democratic side, but I find Obama to be a very refreshing presence and leader, and I always wanted him to run...since I saw him speak at the Dem convention in 2004. He TRIES to transcend old-school politics. That is 50% of the cause, and worth a lot of attention in my book. I know it creates a ton of cognitive dissonance to changes one's views and/or candidate preferences that have potentially been engrained for years, if not decades, but I do find it, at least on the Democratic side, hard to believe that there are so many Hillary supporters after seeing what Hillary stands for vs. what Barack stands for. Escalation of commitment...hard to break.
 
309Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 14:47
walk, it is the cynicism that is pervasive in politics. Plain and simple. It is easier to dehumanize your political opponents, read and listen to self-affirming teardowns of those "others," and feel snug and warm that you are doing the right thing because "they" are "bad" and you are "good."

This isn't a Republican or Democratic thing. Members all over the political stripe do it (don't get me started, for instance, on evangelical atheists that I run into often). But combine that with the meanness at the end of the Clinton term and the Republicans with a very strong electoral showing and you have a wiping away of empathy in politics.

The worst thing that happened to the Republicans was that they got everything they asked for. But they didn't have the soul anymore to govern well after it was traded for short-term political gains.

The problem and difficulty for Democrats is not emulating the "you needn't show up" attitude that Republicans held for years. This is why I support Obama over Clinton. And why I'll support McCain over Clinton. We don't need divisive politics anymore. I no longer wish to be sliced & diced, thank you very much.

pd
 
310sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 14:52
This is why I support Obama over Clinton. And why I'll support McCain over Clinton. We don't need divisive politics anymore. I no longer wish to be sliced & diced, thank you very much.

On that count PD, we find ourselves in mutual lock-step agreement.

Obama > McCain > HC
 
311Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 14:58
 
312walk
ID: 181472714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 15:03
Nice one, PD. Really well said, #309. To me, I just wish folks would see what SZ posted in #311 and just "get it" already. We need a good, strong, nice, honest, visionary, inspirational leader...and we have one! There he is! There he is! It does not happen often. We don't usually get to elect a strong candidate; we get stuck with the lesser of two evils. And here is a potentially transformational leader, and I know there is risk, but to me, no more so than Hillary or McCain and probably a lot less cos he is not brining in divisive politics or failed policies. It's a no freakin brainer.
 
313DWetzel at work
ID: 278201415
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 15:14
Probably (okay, definitely) inflammatory hypothesis:

Is it possible that those on the religious right are so in unified lockstep with their religious mentors that they naturally assume that everyone is similarly in lockstep with their religious mentors, even despite obvious evidence to the contrary?

This whole thing is a tempest in a teapot. How about going after the things that a candidate actually says and believes, instead of the things that someone they have worked with/gone to a church of/met at an ice cream social in 7th grade
says and believes?
 
314sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 15:25
because DW, that wouldnt serve the purposes of those who oppose Obama.
 
315Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 15:27
I don't think it's gonna happen. If Obama wins the nomination the country will be blasted with 527 ads featuring Rev. Wright's greatest hits (the same 5 excerpts we've seen over the past week, I'd imagine) every time they turn on their TV or computer. The SwiftVets campaign will pale in comparison.

I'd love to be wrong but I think you can stick a fork in him.

The ugliest tactics of the political right will prevail, if they haven't already. So it turns out that despite the Audacity to Hope, Obama can't transcend race. Despite his best efforts, they just wouldn't let him. I guess we weren't ready after all.

Maybe someone else will come along in another 20 years or so. He or she will probably have to be a Republican.
 
316Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 15:31
I share a bit of the despair, MITH, but Obama is not Kerry. And the more his message catches on, the more foolish and self-marginalizing those attacks will be.

He got *plenty* of 527-like crap in his Senate run, and ended up rising above it all.

And we've still got over a month until the PA primary. Lots and lots of time for the dittoheads to froth themselves onto the sidelines.
 
317Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 15:40
Funny, despite how many members of the political right insisted for months on referring to Obama with his middle name (after all, people include Hillary's middle name when the refer to her all the time, one particularly sharp gurupie noted) I haven't heard or read "Barack Hussein Obama" in over a week.

If there was no implication, no implicit, underhanded assertion associated with Obama's middle name, then why haven't we heard it the moment it became politically expedient for Obama's opponents to overtly associate Obama with his Christian church?
 
318Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 15:46
I suppose there is something good to come out of it, then! No more whisperings of "Obama is a Muslim!"

 
319Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 15:48
Yes of course. Once they realized they'd get further demonizing him as a Christian, they had to stop refering to him as Hussein or risk confusing the sheep.
 
320walk
ID: 181472714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 15:49
#315 MITH, I fear that, too, but also tend to be a little more on the optimistic side with PD's view in #316. If Obama is the Dem nominee, think, to some degree, the country is less susceptible to the potential 527 crap and Obama has shown a gracious ability to rise above it and continue to get his positive message across. I think he can overcome it. I really think that he has the base, $, movement, and charisma to overcome potentially nasty negative campaigning...and to give McCain credit, I don't think McCain would allow as much of this crap to enter into the equation (although I know he cannot control it, to some degree) -- not in the way Bush and Cheney and Rove did it as their basic MO.
 
321walk
ID: 181472714
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 16:00
Beckel (Real Clear Poli) on how Wright thing could Backfire

Sullivan's summary is user-friendly, and there's a link to the longer RCP/Beckel piece, but I think this is a plausible take.
 
322Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 16:45
Evidently, being post-racial means referring to people as "typical white person", bred to fear blacks.....lalalala

Can you imagine Hillary calling someone a "typical black person" and then identifying her with some racial stereotype the Obama does his poor Grandma?

 
323Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 17:03
As opposed to calling his grandmother "untypical?" I don't see the problem when referring to your own family.
 
324Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 17:05
Once again Obama is attacked for an off the cuff remark that some insist he must have intended in the most offensive possible way. here's exactly what he said:

She's a typical white person who... if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know, you know there's a reaction that's been bred into... our experiences, that, that don't go away, and that sometimes come out in the wrong way and that's just the nature of race in our society.

Do you claim that the reaction that Obama speaks about here is something other that typical, MBJ? Not typical for an American gladiator, trained killer, law man and hunk of beef such as yourself, MBJ. But for the average person, do you think there's something untrue about this?

Is it possible that your kneejerk reaction to what sounds to me like an highly unPC, maybe even taboo but patently honest statement is rather like Obama's reaction to what Geraldine Ferraro said?

Ferraro had the audacity to suggest that Obama had an advantage of one kind or another because he is black. Obama didn't stop to look past that and consider that she might be right.
 
325Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 17:20
Obama was attacked? OK.


MITH - I don't know what the "typical white person" or "typical black person" thinks about when a stranger walks down the street. But, no, most of the people I know don't live in fear of strangers. Obama's grandma may be that way; I'm not sure why he would declare that is typical of white people.

I have a niece who is black (actually bi-racial); so long as I include a mention of her in my statement, do I free license to make stereotype blacks and still claim to be"post-racial", PD? Just asking.
 
326Tree
ID: 10292015
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 17:28
i think, what MBJ is ultimately discussing, in post 322, is fear.

his own fear. the fear of this nation. the fear of humanity.

if one reads Obama's remark in context - as provided above by MITH - it is obvious that Obama is again touching on the same theme of parts of his speech the other day - that we have bred into ourselves, into our system, and into society, a fear and a near inability to over come that fear, nearly 150 years after the Civil War ended.

I also agree with MITH when he stated that the attacks agains Obama will be vile and violent. I think those that are afraid, and those that don't want, will come out him with furious venom.

it worries me, because i feel we will have lost a wonderful opportunity - perhaps the most amazing opportunity of my just under 40 years on this earth.

i feel about Obama the same way i imagine my parents felt about JFK, and RFK. A sense of a hope, a sense that the light at the end of the tunnel is NOT an approaching train about to run you down.

i feel he can bridge the gap, and that he can heal this nation that has fractured to a level probably not seen in 40 years. But, sadly, he might never got that opportunity because when it all comes down to it, he's probably in the wrong political party.
 
327Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 17:29
All this nonsense about Wright, etc. just seems to clarify what anyone who looks at Obama's actual positions on issues and Senatorial voting record would suspect: he's a very, very liberal politician whose positions are informed by racial poitics and big government. Nothing nefarious about that, but this claim to be "post-racial" simply doesn't stand up. He's all about race and racial politics.
 
328Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 17:30
MBJ: Are you saying calling his grandmother a "typical white person" because her experience causes her to react in ways that we consider wrong is stereotypical? That is, it is inappropriate for Obama to refer to her as typical because she, because of her age and experience, reacts racially in ways we no longer approve?

And no, you aren't free to make comments about other people simply by mentioning your niece. Sheesh. The point wasn't that Obama can make racial comments about other people. *You're* point was that his comment about his grandmother was inappropriate in some way.

I would imagine that your niece is also infused with experience on race, though a very different experience from Obama's grandmother. It's too bad you are unwilling to see the difference that those very distinct experiences make in people. Maybe you have surrounded yourself only with white people of that age who never carry around, nor express, things in terms of race inappropriately. Good for you, Bubble Boy.
 
329Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 17:36
*You're* point was that his comment about his grandmother was inappropriate in some way.

No, my point was that I wouldn't expect people who claim to be "post-racial" to make statements like "typical white person". I wouldn't speak in those terms and I don't go around claiming to be a racial uniter. He didn't even limit it to typical old white person.

He can spak with authority on his grandma. It takes a degree of arrogance to decide for others how typical white people think.

 
330Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 17:42
tree - Is there anything in particular I am supposed to be afraid of? I'm curious.

Maybe your on to something. Maybe this might explain the reoccuring nightmares, the cold sweats, the anxiety, the migraines. Be specific, so I'll know, Dr.
 
331Tree
ID: 10292015
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 17:47
tree - Is there anything in particular I am supposed to be afraid of? I'm curious.

Maybe your on to something. Maybe this might explain the reoccuring nightmares, the cold sweats, the anxiety, the migraines. Be specific, so I'll know, Dr.


perhaps you're afraid of dealing with your fears without being a smart ass?
 
332Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 17:49
No, I'm very much at my ease in that respect.
 
333Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 18:45
my point was that I wouldn't expect people who claim to be "post-racial" to make statements like "typical white person".

Does Obama claim to be post-racial? Perhaps he has said that eh attempts this. I think more likely that this is something that other people have attributed to him. I don't know. One term I do know Obama uses to refer his campaign is "imperfect".

That said, I'm not at all convinced that his use of "typical white person" is an example of such imperfection.
 
334Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 18:57
I figured I'd find something along these lines here. In post 25 of that thread, Sarge posted:
Few of us, can say that if we were (wjite) and walking down the streets of a rundown area of town at 1 in the a.m. and saw 3 black youth coming along behind us, that we wouldnt get a bit anxious. The very fact that we get nervous if its 3 black youth and not as nervous were it 3 white, is indicative of at least a momentary feeling of fear based entirely upon the race of the group.
Interestingly, MBJ, you posted less than an hour (3 posts) later and you took no exception.
 
335Myboyjack
ID: 8216923
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 21:12
MITH - 334: Is your point that I don't pay much attention to what sarge posts? Is it that I don't hold sarge's posts to the same standard as I do public statements by the "racial uniter"? Well, you got me.

Seriously, you spent time looking for that to prove what?

Anyway, to be clear on what will, in the long run i think, be a tempest in a teapot. Nothing Obama has said is offensive. I don't think his support of Rev. Wright mean he's a closet racial kook who thinks the man created AIDS to keep down blacks. I don't think he hates America. (much). I question his bona fides on being a "racial uniter. I do think, now, that he's no slower than any other politician to play race when he believes there a net gain to be had.

It seems that, like a lot of pols who have lived the priveliged life he has, that he sincerely doesn't get why people might raise an eyebrow at his support for a race huckster like Wright or his making comments like "typical white person".
 
336Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 21:23
No my point was that in a discussion about race in which you contributed you didn't previously bat an eye when precisely the same notion was raised. In fact no one offered a suggestion that Sarge was off base.

He's offered way too much insight from differing perspectives for me to believe he doesn't understand why people attack him for his relationship with Wright.

I think you've been as consistantly wrong in this thread as I've ever seen.
 
337Perm Dude
ID: 1927207
Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 21:55
I'm not sure what kind of "priviledged life" you are talking about, MBJ. But I don't get why people are upset with his comment about his grandmother. Indeed, if there is a stereotype there, it is that of an old person who sometimes rips off a racial slur which is embarrasing. But people justify it by saying that that is how they were raised.

Is that typical of people of that age in the United States? I'd say "yes."

Most of the eyebrow raising you refer to are by people seeking ways to get offended by reading between the lines of what Obama is saying. People who won't take him at his word.

Does Obama get why people raise eyebrows? I think not only is that answer "yes" but his entire speech was in response to those people.
 
338steve houpt
ID: 451161019
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 02:44
PD #201 - I don't think this is something Obama would speak about in public. Though I have heard some (mostly far right dittoheads) claiming an argument along the lines of your first paragraph: Obama didn't talk with Rev Wright about it because he didn't say he did, and Obama is a pandering Democrat so it isn't possible for him to withhold this information. Nonsense, of course. These people want Obama and his pastor to have so close a relationship that Obama supports, encourages, and actually holds these hateful views. But not so close that Obama wouldn't speak with his pastor privately about the things he was saying.

Obama says he did not confront Wright. OK, but he is back to saying he did not because he did not know?? He says he would have if he knew?? Do I need to get Obama's definition of "if I had known" and "I knew"? But then later on in the same show he says he did confront him [but I guess not about what he did not know, just what he knew ??]

?? What he knew was not bad enough in his opinion to confront Wright, but what he did not know was bad enough that if he knew he would have confronted Wright and maybe have left the church and some of what he knew he did confront him ??

I watched this portion of Larry King live - he does not look good when trying to wiggle through this [or lie ??]. Depending on before the speech, the speech, Anderson Cooper or Larry King live - you can't figure out what he heard or when - he looked bad tonight trying to explain this - just your "typical politician". Just like his grandmother is just a "typical white woman".

Transcript Larry King [thurs] -

KING: The race issue has come to the forefront. Our guest is Senator Barack Obama.

I guess most people would be saying, why not just leave the church of Reverend Wright? I know you have been in that church a long time, been close to him. He has a major involvement in your family, but based on what he said, why not just say goodbye?

OBAMA: Well, he has retired, Larry. So you know, he preached his last sermon already.

KING: But that was the church.

OBAMA: But -- let me...

KING: All right. Never mind, go ahead.

OBAMA: Yes, well, you know, let's just broaden this for a second. You know, I gave obviously a major speech about this issue and race in general on Tuesday. And you know, what I have said consistently is that what Reverend Wright said that has become the issue of controversy was completely inexcusable and unacceptable.

And I completely disavow any of those statement that were made. They were statements that I wasn't aware of, were not brought to my attention until fairly recently. I wasn't in the church when he said those things.

And there are no excuses for it. I think they were divisive. I think that they demeaned our country in powerful ways. What I have also said is that that wasn't typical of what I heard from Reverend Wright, that the church that I have attended for 15 years is a very conventional Christian church, a African-American church, squarely grounded in the tradition of the African-American church, that we talk mostly about Christ and salvation and sin and mercy and justice and hope, that it is a bedrock of the South Side of Chicago.

It has enormous attendance with people from all walks of life. And so given that Reverend Wright was retiring, I have no reason to leave the church. And what I also have tried to point out is that had I known that many of these comments were being made, I would have confronted Reverend Wright directly. And if he had continued to argue these points or if I had heard them in the church, I might have left. But that is not what happened. ..............

[Later] KING: A couple of other things in that area. Have you have had any communication with the reverend since all of this?

OBAMA: Well, you know, I haven't. He was actually -- because, as I said, he preached his last sermon. He is on sabbatical. He went to take a cruise. He was not available by phone. You know, I had spoken to him earlier when some of these sermons first came to light.

I had spoken to him earlier and told him that, you know, I was uncomfortable and objected strongly to some of these statements
. But that, you know, obviously he had played an important part in bringing me to my faith, and that I hoped our relationship would continue.

I haven't talked to him since that time. And I'm sure that, you know, he has a lot to think about, given the firestorm that has erupted over time. And you know, I suspect that I will talk to him at some point, to get his feelings on the issue.



Larry King - transcript 3/20/2008

At some point 'I THINK' he needs to get a little more specific with these answers [when did he know the things Wright said that he sometimes says he knew about that he talked to Wright about] and [specifically what are the things he did not know about that he did not speak to Wright about]. Some time line. Can't make any sense out of this. Maybe that happens when you are making it up as you are going along.
 
339Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 02:53
i think, what MBJ is ultimately discussing, in post 322, is fear.

his own fear. the fear of this nation. the fear of humanity.
________________

i feel he can bridge the gap, and that he can heal this nation that has fractured to a level probably not seen in 40 years. But, sadly, he might never got that opportunity because when it all comes down to it, he's probably in the wrong political party.
- Tree

Hilarious stuff about MBJ being a fearful person. The way you always get everything 180 degrees backwards should put you in some medical theater with a team of experts trying to figure out this form of dyslexia.
___________

This stuff came along too late to take the nomination from him. He faces a terrible republican candidate, a republican party that doesn't want to work for McCain, he comes along at the perfect point in the business cycle, the politcal pendulum favors a party switch in the WH, your cadidate has the persuasive powers prolly not seen more than once or twice in a generation, about the only thing wrong with his timing is his coming along after 9/11. If America can overlook Kerry having sat in on a 'Weathermen' meeting where the assassination of a senator was discussed [along with the things he said about America in his youth] chances are they can overlook Wright's jaundiced perspective on America and give Obama a pass on this.

America is dying to elect a black president [of the sort they thot Obama to be a week ago], just to get over this perception of a barrier to a black man in the WH. The people I will feel sorry for if Obama is not elected are black people. Guys with Obamas oration gifts come along so rarely they will just know they will never see a black president if this one doesn't make it. Just ask conservatives how hard it is to come up with another Reagan.

In the end I suppose people will come to the conclusion that every last black candidate who wasn't hermetically sealed away from the black political scene his whole life is gonna have a Wright in his closet and they will end up giving Obama a pass on this.

That said Obama still has to do a better job reassuring people there is some genuine space between his own views and those of Wright. Hard to believe he didn't see this coming.

 
340Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 03:06
I sense what Obama did was pull out of his back pocket the great race speech he's been writing his whole adult life and tacked on some stuff tailored for this situation. He should have saved that speech for later. What he needed to say this time was, "Relax people, I don't hate either of my grandmothers and I don't hate any of you either. Nothing Wright's ever said is gonna change that." Prolly throwing his own grandmother under this bus wasn't the way to go.
 
341Wilmer McLean
ID: 412442023
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 04:20
Obama's camp released the wrong historical Wright photo.

This should have been the one:

Surgery on the President (LBJ)
 
342walk
ID: 21250214
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 06:53
I agree with some of what you said in #340 Boldwin, but I don't think he really dissed his grandma as much as he chose a very personal example, to sorta be even more accountable to this race thing, to provide context that folks coudl relate to about race relations and how attitudes can be passed on generationally and how even with close friends and relatives who have old-fashioned and potentially biased views, they do not necessarily define the individuals fully in terms of their entire character.
 
343walk
ID: 21250214
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 06:53
Richardson Endorses Obama
 
344Tree
ID: 3533298
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 08:32
Richardson nailed it here.

"I believe he is the kind of once-in-a-lifetime leader that can bring our nation together and restore America’s moral leadership in the world," Mr. Richardson said in the statement. "As a presidential candidate, I know full well Sen. Obama’s unique moral ability to inspire the American people to confront our urgent challenges at home and abroad in a spirit of bipartisanship and reconciliation."
 
345Madman
ID: 14139157
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 09:22
MITH 284 -- Here's another example: McCain suspends staffer over Obama-Wright video. Want more?
 
346walk
ID: 181472714
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 09:25
agree...totally, tree, #344.
 
347Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 09:29
Yeah I saw that on CNN just a couple of hours after I posted #284. I have to give McCain credit, I don't ever recall a candidate so minding his own camp.

Want more?
Is there more? If there is I'd like to see it. But I'm under the impression that the argument in #284 was sound until this report was released.

In any case, clearly Obama - and every other Pres. candidate - could learn from McCain on this.
 
348Perm Dude
ID: 16219217
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 09:37
#338: I understood that Obama wasn't in the pew during the single sermon from which nearly all the objectionable quotes were raised. I remember thinking that when Obama was asked about it that he seemed a little surprised, but I wasn't sure if the surprise was because he had no idea about the quotes or no idea of the controversy it stirred up lately (the question was asked about the latter. But it didn't seem Obama had even thought about it, leaving me to think it might be both).

This might be what you sensed in the Larry King interview: Obama's surprise at the question. This isn't "making it up as you go along." The timeline is pretty clear from me: Obama was not in the church at the time of the sermon. When told about it, he spoke to the Rev.

My point earlier was that it seemed that Obama would have spoken with the pastor privately about the kind of language by Rev Wright that we're all discussing, whether it was years ago or recently--in fact, probably as soon as he became aware of them. As he appears to have done.
 
349Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 09:43
As far as I know there are three sermons in question. One from shortly after 9/11, one from sometime in 2003 and one from earlier this year.
 
350Tree
ID: 3533298
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 09:44
Kudos to McCain for his actions. If we get a McCain/Obama presidential race, it might be one that is interesting in that we'll see if both sides can stick to the high standards they seem to be going for.

of course, when this year's model of the Swift Boats come out, we'll see how it's handled by the candidates.
 
351Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 09:53
One more thing about McCain - this tendency of his, his willingness to refute or condemn his own side, often in support of his political opponents - is the thing that leftists find most appealing about him and also the thing that has led to widespread distrust of him among the political right.

It plays well with everyone at this stage of a political campaign but it'll be interesting if he finds a reason to similarly come down on a more established political ally such as an elected official.
 
352Perm Dude
ID: 16219217
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 09:54
#349: There are probably more. But I understand nearly all the quotes going around are from one sermon.
 
353Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 09:57
I have no idea how frequently Wright has broached these controversial topics over the years, but as far as I know all the clips I've seen on TV are from 3 sermons.
 
354Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 10:39
This won't be solved till he convincingly explains exactly how he differs with black liberation theology and if he manages that, then explains what he was doing in a black liberation theology church...

...or finds a way to prove that black liberation theology tends to bring out hyperbole and figurative speech that it's proponents don't mean literally...

...or has the MSM do a memory hole disappearing act magic trick on this subject which would only work on a fraction of the electorate but maybe enuff.
 
355Pancho Villa
ID: 495272016
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 10:43
it seemed that Obama would have spoken with the pastor privately about the kind of language by Rev Wright that we're all discussing

Which brings us to a point that we haven't been discussing. The focus seems to be on the influence Wright(and Cone and other proponents of the Black Liberation Church)have had on molding Obama's views over the years.

Yet, there's been no discussion concerning Obama's moderating influence on the views of Wright, Cone and other proponents of this church. We know that Cone has dramatically tempered his rhetoric since his most radical proclomations in the 60s, and it would be interesting to get a broader circumspect of Wright's presentations from the pulpit over the past several years.

While this wouldn't advance the agenda that the real Obama is clandestinely an advocate of anti-American black power radicalism bent on riot and revolution, it would offer a more honest perspective of the direction of the church since Obama's rise as an influential national figure.
 
356Mattinglyinthehall
Dude
ID: 01629107
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 10:44
explains what he was doing in a black liberation theology church

Does a preacher's occasional foray (since we don't know that it's any more than that) into BLT- topics make his a "BLT church"?

How many preachers are there at Trinity United Church of Christ?

My understanding is that Trinity United Church of Christ is the largest black congergation in the Chicago area.

I'll ask again for a response to #209.
 
357DWetzel at work
ID: 278201415
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 10:49
Well, their web site isn't hard to find:

Trinity United Church of Christ

Looks like there are nine members of the "Pastoral Staff", though how many of those would actually be doing regular services is a harder question.
 
358sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 10:52
re 354:

I'd ventuire the guess, that for persons like yourself Boldy, Obama could not POSSIBLY offer up a satisfactory explanation/proof/evidance. Your mind was made up to oppose him, before you ever heard the statements made by another. You then fling yourself upon those statements, and do your level best to use them as evidance against the man you already oppose, even without sound rational for that opposition.


"Wont be over until....", my a$$. No way, you'll ever let it go. Hell, you still harp on Bill Clinton, some 8 years later and Barney Frank HOW many years later?
 
359Madman
ID: 14139157
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 10:53
MITH -- Let's not forget why we're talking about McCain's attempts to maintain respectful discipline within his own campagin ... it was brought up because you were hypothesizing that Axelrod was misrepresenting Obama's position vis a vis Ferraro dismissal.

On that score, I am arguing that Obama has enough personal and organizational skill to keep his campaign manager on message, and enough rhetorical skill to pull the campaign back if Axelrod would ever go to far.

Your position, and feel free to restate, is that Obama should not be held accountable for what his campaign manager says, that the only reliable signal about Obama's message comes from Obama himself. This is true even when Obama himself came very close to saying the same thing that Axelrod did.

To all -- do you really want to stick to the 1 / 3 sermon defense? It makes no sense, and is an argument that Obama himself has thrown away. And, honestly, if we could find 10 references, would it change any of your guys' minds?

A fascinating NY Times story on Obama and Wright. Published 4/30/07. A few comments:

1) It shows a rawer view of the strategy we now see Obama using for dealing with Wright. I actually think he was more effective here (although aided by the framing), aside from my next point.

2) This NYTimes piece quoted Obama commenting on the now-infamous post 9/11 sermon.

“The violence of 9/11 was inexcusable and without justification,” he said in a recent interview. He was not at Trinity the day Mr. Wright delivered his remarks shortly after the attacks, Mr. Obama said, but “it sounds like he was trying to be provocative.”

Mr. Obama had to have been told some of those quotes back in early 2007, if not earlier. What's amazing, is that he also had to know that TUCC sold DVD's of Wright's sermons, so he also had to know this was all going to come out.

Obama's campaign has now shifted from calling those statements an attempt to "be provocative" to an unequivocal rejection.

What caused the shift may be illustrated in the last couple of paragraphs of the story ...

3) “If Barack gets past the primary, he might have to publicly distance himself from me,” Mr. Wright said with a shrug. “I said it to Barack personally, and he said yeah, that might have to happen.”

So, I think the strategy was even more calculating that what it appears today. It wasn't just that he was a TUCC member to get a political boost in the 1990s. He maintained his connections as best he could to sustain his base during the primaries. Then, if forced or as-needed, he'd distance himself from that base in the general.

A fairly sound strategy, that appears to be working.

And just to be clear, I'm not suggesting Obama ever agreed with the worst of Wright's statements. But I suspect he thinks there is more than a grain of truth in many of them, otherwise what is there to be provocative about? And I have absolutely no idea who Obama really is, or what in the world he was thinking.

In this light, Steve h's quoted interview on Larry King makes a lot of sense. It isn't unreasonable for such a man to both deny and assert within the same interview. The answer you get would be driven by the immediate context, and may not be woven into a broader interpretable pattern. Who knows.
 
360Perm Dude
ID: 16219217
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 10:55
I honestly laughed out loud at #354. "Convincingly" for who? You will never be convinced, Baldwin. Never. Your MO is to ascribe these very kind of shadowy evil designs on Democrats while insisting that you hold those beliefs because they can't disprove them.

It would be better if you just came out and said "I believe everything Obama has written, worked, and spoken about to the contrary of BLT is a lie."

Obama doesn't need to prove he isn't something he isn't. He merely needs to re-affirm that what he has been saying all along is what he believes.
 
361Perm Dude
ID: 16219217
Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 11:01
Andrew Sullivan with the full sermon in question

I know, MITH, there are others. But we've only seen snippets, and the fuller sermons are worth seeing in full. I agree with Sullivan a bit on this, that in context these quotes are not as bad, though still a little too self-critical of America and not critical enough of other forces. But Wright is dead-on in talking about the role of hate in our lives.
 
362Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 11:15
MITH calls for further discussion of #209. I think he needs to understand that it doesn't matter how often or seldom Wright went off on a rant. What matters is that BLT is not incidental but rather at the heart of Wrights theological framework, thus the need to understand it.

Yes Cone has taken baby steps back from the edge but for him it is still about inherent violence from white establishment and church and violent reaction from 'right thinking' christians.

Yes I listened to the whole thing.
 
363Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 11:32
it is still about inherent violence from white establishment and church

maybe i'm taking your quote out of context, but inherent violence from the white establishment and church is pretty much the truth.

it's a historical fact that white churches and white christianity used violence in the name of religion, going back thousands of years.

to rail against that, is not a bad thing.
 
365Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 11:33
I wonder how pervasive BLT is in black area Chicago churches. Considering Farrakhan's status in the region, I don't think this is an unfair question. TUCC has the largest black congregation in Chicago.

Since we're musing, given how the bulk of Obama's rhetoric that might apply to BLT inarguably comes down as decisively against that philosophy, doesn't it stand to reason that Obama might have joined that church for some reason other than it's particular theological specifics? Is theology ever the most likely reason that a mostly secular black person who aspires to enter local politics joins the largest and probably most influential black congregation in the metropoiltan area and saddles up to the Reverend?

And again, I refer to my suspicion that BLT might not be so easy to get away from in Chicagoland anyway.
 
366Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 11:39
This won't be solved till he convincingly explains exactly how he differs with black liberation theology and if he manages that, then explains what he was doing in a black liberation theology church...

Of course he has explained the differences, and it doesn't take a master's in psychology to understand why he joined the Trinity Church.
He was a 26 year-old obviously confused with his racial and cultural identity who found something he could embrace that was an integral part of his community. That doesn't mean he necessarily ever embraced some of the more radical tenets of the church, and there's no evidence that he ever did. It takes an awfully jaded mind to surmise that the entire premise of the church is to preach hate whitey, but that's a lot easier for some than to actually delve into an honest evaluation that brings into play the entire structure and works that Wright's church has accomplished, much less completely dismissing the conditions and circumstances that led to its origins, as brilliantly displayed by Ann Coulter. What's called throwing Grandma under the bus is actually a brutally honest evaluation of the underlying senses of many white people - the I'm all for blacks unless they want to date my sister or daughter syndrome.
 
367Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 12:21
Obama's new campaign fund-raiser:



When did all the airports get free wireless internet? Awesome.
 
369Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 12:32
The Obama campaign today released a damning??? photo of Wright with then-President Bill Clinton. source

I think this tactic is an accurate gauge by which we can determine the quality of Obama's "new politics". Not coincidentally, it also reflects the last paragraphs of Obama's recent speech. I seem to recall hearing something about doing unto others as you would have done unto them. Something like that.
 
370Perm Dude
      ID: 16219217
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 12:37
I'd be interested in hearing their reasons for releasing the photo. But the article (and your post, Madman) is full of innuendo.

 
371Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 12:39
damning???

I don't know that the photo would be regarded as damning as much as it would be considered undamning for Obama. After all, if this church were so radical as to espouse a hate whitey philosophy, why would Clinton reach out to Wright with an invitation to the White House?

If anything, it makes those attempting to paint Trinity as the black version of the Aryan nations look rather foolish.
 
372Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 12:39
The photo heads Hillary off at the pass - and might explain why she's been mum on this subject.
 
373Perm Dude
      ID: 16219217
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 12:43
Maybe you are right. Certainly I wouldn't put it above Clinton surrogates to try to whip up a whispering campaign and this cuts that off at the knees.

An example of hardball politics, then? Tying Clinton to Obama through Wright would be pretty brilliant, particularly since Obama has already refused to reject Wright the man (just Wright's words).
 
374walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 12:49
Well, I dunno, at this point, I feel that there is too much attention and analysis on Obama's association with Wright, and too much weight being given to the hyperbole in those specific Wright sermons...mainly be white people. It feels overweighted.
 
375Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 17:18
If you were in the Obama camp wouldn't you be thinking that this was the ultimate Clinton maneuver?

The timing is odd for this to blow up. If I was Obama I dunno if I would be grateful it held off until the nomination had been virtually sown up or kicking myself for not having preempted it by dealing with it before anyone could hit me over the head with it. Like a salesman bringing up an objection and spinning it deftly before the customer thinks of it. Heading it off at the pass.

If you are gonna be the trancendant kid do yer trancending already.

You think this timing was interesting wait till you see the MSM discover to it's amazement that saint McCain has a mean streak.
 
376walk
      ID: 21250214
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 18:11
Good strategic and tactical points about timing, and pre-emptiveness Boldwin.
 
377walk
      ID: 21250214
      Fri, Mar 21, 2008, 23:19
Panel discussion on Maher just started. He has a black female poli sci professor from Princeton, who spent 7 years attending Wright's church when she lived previously in Chicago, on the panel. Interesting...
 
378walk
      ID: 21250214
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 09:27
PJ O'Rourke is really something...knows a lot, is really full of himself (and knows it), yet is quite funny. Man, he likes to hear himself talk. He was a good balance to the typical left panel on Bill Maher cos he's very smart and knowledgeable. One thing the panel saw as obvious, is that Wright's comments pale in comparison to the comments made by some religious figures who have aligned themselves with McCain. I don't want this to then become: "look, look, what he said, why don't we also focus on that guy, and his comments, and isn't McCain just as bad?" The bigger pic, and this was a consensus point last night was the much more importantly, "why are these issues, as indicated in the media, and on this thread, seemingly so much more important and attention-getting than an ongoing occupation in the face of a recession, socialized tax-payer bail out of fortune 500 company, gas near $4/gallon, etc."

That's a pretty interesting observation, IMO.
 
379steve houpt
      ID: 451161019
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 09:51
walk 378 - Wright's comments pale in comparison to the comments made by some religious figures who have aligned themselves with McCain.

Even if true [just a matter of whose opinion of what the definition of 'pales' is], none were McCain's pastor for 20 years. That's the ONLY thing that makes this a story. Obama's close 20 year relationship with Wright.

Not a picure of Clinton with Wright - who cares - what were there 300 clergy at the breaskfast.

Not a picture of Hillary with Wright if it surfaces [she was at the breakfast also].

Not what some religous supporter of McCain ever said. Even if McCain prasied him as the greatest spiritual man in the USA [McCain praises everybody - he's probably praising Obama's relationship with Wright - he's probably praising Wright for all the good he's done]. McCain's trying to be so 'nice', he's looking weak.
 
380Tree
      ID: 0229228
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 10:39
another phrase that nails it...

The bigger pic, and this was a consensus point last night was the much more importantly, "why are these issues, as indicated in the media, and on this thread, seemingly so much more important and attention-getting than an ongoing occupation in the face of a recession, socialized tax-payer bail out of fortune 500 company, gas near $4/gallon, etc."

personally, i couldn't care less whether Obama, Clinton, or McCain spent every sunday for 20 years sitting next to a very talkative Adolf Hitler or Josef Mengele in church.

i care about how they are going to heal this country after 8 VERY divisive years, i care about our faltering economy, i care about me having to pay close to 4 bucks a gallon while oil company rake in billions of dollars of profits, i care about the war in Iraq and how it affects my person safety and how we can bring the troops home, i care about spiraling-out-of-control health care costs, i care about the losses of my personal freedoms, i care about preserving a person's right to make decisions about their body, and i care about helping this country make strides to improve itself.

If you honestly believe that Obama hates white people, that he believes we brought 9/11 on ourselves, and any thing else that his pastor of 20 years said a handful of times to his entire congregation, then that's your right.

and it's my right to think you are a complete partisan fool if that is honestly what you really believe.
 
381sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 10:47
Got to go with that sentiment actually. There are dramatically larger issues at hand, than what so-and-sos Pastor had/has to say.

Lets look at and discuss Soc Sec solvency/insolvency,

Lets look at discuss, the apparently impending recession/depression,

Lets look at and discuss, the Iraqi/Pakistan/Afghanistan situation,

Lets look honestly, at the housing/mortgage crisis and discuss that,

I think these issues as well as a host of others, are far and away more pressing and deserving of time/response, than is what some Pastor said. Whether that Pastor said it once or one-hundred times.
 
382steve houpt
      ID: 451161019
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 11:48
I don't think Obama hates anybody [except maybe the evil 'corporate america]. But I think judgement has to be considered. And I'd question his.

It's hilarious when you say you don't care who they sit next to 'now'. ANd now the left wants to talk about ISSUES. Well, Cheney was evil because he sat at Haliburton. Bush was evil because he avoided the draft. Only the issues should have mattered. Maybe Obama is evil because he sits in Wright's church. Because it makes poeple wonder about his JUDGEMENT. Has his judegement on Iraq been affected by siitng in the pew, has his judgement on Social Security been affected by his view of the government is totally responsible for your well being, has his judgement on the economy been influenced by Wright's disdain for all those 'whitey' corporations.

It's just fun to watch the left tie themselves in knots trying to convince themselves this is 'nothing'. WE ONLY CARE ABOUT THE ISSUES. Keep thinking that. It's fun.

I know the left has no sense of humor, but I hope you see that there is some humorous sarcasm in this post. So I'm not interested in any rebutals with facts about my 'humor', becasue facts don't matter to me, only the ISSUES as I SEE THEM [I'm trying to think like the left]. :):)


- 8 devisive years - I'd blame that on the left. I'd say Bush was foolish and tried to reach out. You can't compromise with the left, so he decided why try anymore.

- gas prices - give me a break. The government's lack of action for the last 30 years is one of the problems. But the left should be happy. The higher the price, the better off the planet. Less use. I'm sure people waste lots of gas driving around for pleasure. CUT OUT THE FUN. What do you think this is? Turn the computer off. Turn the TV off. Wear a jacket inside when it's cold. Turn the heater down. Wear shorts to work in the summer. Turn that AC off. Let's get serious. No more wasted energy on vacations and pleasure. No more jets woith less than 50 seats. Only government approved flight plans. And send all the money you save to the government to feed the poor and provide health care [even before we increase taxes].

-- And this will cut gas prices in the long run. Obertar and a commision set up by Congress want a 40-50 cent increase in federal gas tax. That should 'help' the economy. Really cut use. Probably so much they will have to increase the tax even higher to keep revenue up.

-- And you think taking profits away from oil companies is going to lower gas prices. They will just raise prices if you increase tax margin / rate. Only the left would think that. And what's obscene about oil companies profit margin?

Question - if 100 John Doe oil companies were making $1B each and one of those companies bought the other 99 and the conglomerate made $50B, is that worse in your mind than the 100 making $1B each?

 
383Tree
      ID: 0229228
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 12:00
It's hilarious when you say you don't care who they sit next to 'now'. ANd now the left wants to talk about ISSUES. Well, Cheney was evil because he sat at Haliburton.

no, Cheney had a serious conflict of interest because he sat at Haliburton, then moved on to be a heavy proponent of a war in which Haliburton would benefit.

Bush was evil because he avoided the draft.

this was an issue? maybe i miss that. Bust *IS* evil because of his mandate of murder over the past 5 years.

It's just fun to watch the left tie themselves in knots trying to convince themselves this is 'nothing'. WE ONLY CARE ABOUT THE ISSUES. Keep thinking that. It's fun.

when have the left not cared about politics and issues?

I know the left has no sense of humor, but I hope you see that there is some humorous sarcasm in this post. So I'm not interested in any rebutals with facts about my 'humor', becasue facts don't matter to me, only the ISSUES as I SEE THEM [I'm trying to think like the left]. :):)

if it was funny, i might have a sense of humour about it, but really, if this is funny to you, your sense of humour is duller than a butter knife.

- 8 devisive years - I'd blame that on the left. I'd say Bush was foolish and tried to reach out. You can't compromise with the left, so he decided why try anymore.

reach out? wha? he was given a mandate. he was given political capital and he intends to spend it. at no point did bush try to reach out - he used the bully pulpit, and that was that.

- gas prices - give me a break.

so this isn't an issue for you?

But the left should be happy. The higher the price, the better off the planet. Less use. I'm sure people waste lots of gas driving around for pleasure.

has there been less use? i see reports saying this, but i don't know anyone personally who drives less.

and so on.



 
384Perm Dude
      ID: 30255227
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 13:17
Democrats aren't against profits, steve. In fact, Obama has stated, to unions workers, that part of their job is to ensure that their companies make a profit (I know--another reason to question his judgement).

Democrats question whether some profits are excessive. When Exxon makes $1Billion a week in profits (that is, above their cost), yet people are paying record high prices at the pump, Democrats have to question it. In fact, they would probably be remiss in not doing so.

As for Obama's judgement, if you haven't read or listened to him very much I can see how you might think that his judgement was impaired by sermons he didn't attend. But if you can't let Obama's words speak for Obama, you haven't got much of a stance to question his judgement.
 
385Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 13:45
8 devisive years - I'd blame that on the left. I'd say Bush was foolish and tried to reach out. You can't compromise with the left, so he decided why try anymore.

So, Senators McCain, Lugar, Hagel, Brownback;
Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill; terrorism czar Richard Clarke; Congressman Ron Paul; General Anthony Zinni; Admiral William Fallon, to name a few, are all leftists?


 
386Boldwin
      ID: 152372212
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 14:45
PV

Why you speak if divisiveness as if there is some middle ground on the issues of the day that you would be willing to compromise on...

Truth be told in your eyes and everyone else's now days, I'm right and everyone who disagrees is merely being divisive and partisan....puhleeze.
 
387Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 15:32
For MBJ:
 
388Perm Dude
      ID: 30255227
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 15:34
Which side told the other "Don't bother showing up?" Which side politicized the Department of Justice? Broke the law by purging emails? "Declassified" a CIA agent to get at her husband? Changed EPA reports that didn't match the conclusions they wanted?

Until two years ago, Democrats had no power in the Federal government. Don't try to blame anyt of this on the Dems.

The arrogance of Republicans is just stunning. Everything was handed to them. All they had to do was be civil. But they decided not to (some might define acting without civility when you do not need to to be a sign of unethical behavior). I personally know a number of Republicans who were caught up the the divisiveness and arrogance of the Administration.

Blame the Left all you want, guys. The arrogance of the Bush administration has come back to bite them in the ass.
 
389Boldwin
      ID: 152372212
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 16:17
You need a history lesson in how Reps were treated in congress for the 50 years before Newt fixed it briefly.

As if the Dems were any different?! It is to laff. They were worse.
 
390Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 21:28
When Exxon makes $1Billion a week in profits (that is, above their cost), yet people are paying record high prices at the pump, Democrats have to question it. In fact, they would probably be remiss in not doing so.

Oy vey.
 
391Taxman
      ID: 162212215
      Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 23:27
Could someone enlighten me on when the last time a simutaneously controlled democratic White House and congress labeled the republicans as "unamerican", "traitors" and "supporters of terrorists" for just partasian disagreement, much less correctly publicizing factual dishonesty of the Administration??? The Nixon years come to mind...but then that was another republican dealing "honestly" with a vocal opposition.

Got a bad track record here guys.
 
392Boldwin
      ID: 152372212
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 06:56
Perfect name for a liberal there, Taxman.
 
393Boldwin
      ID: 152372212
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 06:59
For the record I prefer the phrase 'enemies of mankind' when describing liberals.
 
394Boldwin
      ID: 152372212
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 07:04
As far as track record goes pick any group that America ever promised support to or who had a legitimate belief America might be the place to look to for support...and there you will find liberals trying to stab them in the back and get them killed or worse, thrown into a death camp.

Name liberals whatever you want. As long as it suits them.
 
395J-Bar
      ID: 292552222
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 11:18
i want to thank pd and mith as they have answered who barack hussein obama jr. is, he is a preacher. they refer to his speeches as preaching, the cadence is working. the only reason he will not be elected is because of his far left liberal ideas and views. race is a non-issue with most of us but will end up being the only issue because that is where people can be marginalized very easily (which i believe obama was speaking to with the ferraro comment) and is a powerful tool that is and will be used by his campaign when anything can remotely be interpreted as racist as he and his staff did to her.
 
396Tree
      ID: 44243236
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 11:56
the only reason he will not be elected is because of his far left liberal ideas and views.

what far left liberal ideas does he have? please, inform me.

left? yea. liberal? yea.

far left? not hardly. not. even. close. but, i am willing to be enlightened.
 
397Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 13:44
Obama has the most Liberal voting record

I like a lot of what Obama says, but his voting record speaks for itself. Actions speak louder than words.
 
398Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 14:43
And it is important to look behind those votes into the broader philosophies ...

1) Should wealthy people pay higher medicare part D premiums? Obama says no. This is a defining partisan position. Democrats push for socialized benefits and therefore fight against means-testing. Republicans try to limit government programs to be a safety-net. Over the past 20 years, this sort of means-testing has been a defining divide between the parties, and it is likely to become more relevant these programs increase as a fraction of overall GDP.

2) His proposed Social Security "solution", discussed above. He's staking a hard-left position, with little compromise. He wants to raise taxes today to help pay for spending that will happen 30 years from now, and I've seen no evidence that he's created an effective mechanism to turn these tax collections into a reduced economic burden in the future. Put more simply, he's proposing an accounting solution without addressing the fundamental problem, which is the drain on federal resources in the future.

The only "conservative" aspect of his SS plan is that he wants to retain the current biases that favor a 1930's family structure of one-wage earner, traditional male-female married households.

3) He wants to increase the top marginal tax rate by somewhere around 50%, depending on how you add it up and depending on your circumstances.

4) On foreign policy, he'll meet with any leader or group at any time for virtually any reason and at virtually any political risk, including Iranian leaders. An exception is Hamas, which he asserts has a proven track record of anti-semitism.

5) Refused to join the bipartisan "Gang of 14"; voted against Alito, etc.

6) (I think) Refuses to be part of the "Third Way" a group designed to develop progressive reforms with a 21st century mindset.

7) He has systematically failed to be engaged in any *significant* bipartisan legislation either currently or in his years in the IL senate (not counting ethics reform type of stuff).

8) Hasn't proposed any significant areas of spending constraint or articulated any areas of our economy or personal lifestyles that could not benefit from revised federal intervention. If I've missed any, I'd love to hear about it.
 
399Perm Dude
      ID: 142412312
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 14:48
Did you skip this sentence?:

While it's somewhat irrelevant to look at Obama's lifetime liberal rating since he only has two years under his congressional belt...

The whole "most conservative" or "most liberal" labels are extremely misleading, prone to abuse, and are themselves so highly biased so as to make the rankings virtually meaningless. Most legislation worth a damn are cobbled together from lots of different viewpoints, and the ones that aren't rarely fall into an up-or-down scenerio. Obama voted against the banking bill and Clinton for it. Which is more liberal? They had different reasons for voting the way they did.
 
400Tree
      ID: 511251614
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 14:49
most Liberal voting record

most liberal voting record does not necessarily equate to "far left ideas and views". not by a long shot.

 
401Perm Dude
      ID: 142412312
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 14:52
I would rather like the Right continuing to hammer "liberal" = "bad" however. It really just prove's Obama's point in the need for some electoral civility.
 
402Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 14:56
4) On foreign policy, he'll meet with any leader or group at any time for virtually any reason and at virtually any political risk, including Iranian leaders. An exception is Hamas, which he asserts has a proven track record of anti-semitism.

Which would be a huge improvement over the current administration's foreign policy. Iran is one country that it is imperative we begin a dialogue with.

 
403Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 15:25
On the other side of the ledger, Obama basically supported Bush's Iraq strategy in 2004, even though he thought Kerry (or Obama) could do a better job executing that strategy. link.

"On Iraq, on paper, there's not as much difference, I think, between the Bush administration and a Kerry administration as there would have been a year ago." He added, "There's not that much difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage. The difference, in my mind, is who's in a position to execute."

In an ironic twist, the Republican nominee, however, directly criticized Bush's strategy.

"I think every day that goes by that we don't remove these sanctuaries in Falluja and other places in the Sunni Triangle, the more expensive it's going to be at the time we take this out," McCain said.

He said he "would never have allowed the sanctuaries to start with."

"In the Falluja issue, our general in Baghdad said we were going to go in and capture or kill those who were responsible for the deaths of Americans," McCain said.

"And we went in, and then we pulled out. As Napoleon said, if you say you're going to take Vienna, you take Vienna."
-- Sept, 2004 link

So I guess you could argue that the Republican nominee is more "liberal" than the Democratic one, at least if you measure them relative to their closeness with Bush's strategies in 2004. Obviously, their positions have flipped over the past year or so, as Obama fought against the latest strategic changes and McCain embraced them.
 
404Boldwin
      ID: 8248236
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 18:40
PV

You realize Iran, the official government of Iran is the worldwide leader of the shiite version of al qeada, namely Hamas and the only dialog they want with us is exactly what day we are willing to institute sharia. What dialog do you think the trancendant kid is gonna achieve there?
 
405Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 19:34
the official government of Iran is the worldwide leader of the shiite version of al qeada, namely Hamas

That explains all those "worldwide" Hamas terrorist attacks in the US, England, Spain, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Yemen, Russia, Pakistan, etc.

I was under the impression Hamas operated in a tiny area of the Middle East.

the only dialog they want with us is exactly what day we are willing to institute sharia.

Sure. Iran's goal is sharia law in the US. And I suppose liberals are all for it. Chances are greater that we'll see martial law as a result of a complete economic breakdown.
 
406Boldwin
      ID: 8248236
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 20:58
You need remedial Islamic education, which hamas will be happy to supply if you don't do it on your own.
 
407Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 21:21
You need remedial Islamic education, which hamas will be happy to supply if you don't do it on your own

Wow, talk about paranoid delusions. I could actively seek out Hamas for remedial Islamic education and only fail miserably. What evidence do you have that Hamas is actively operating in this country? What evidence do you have that this country is in any way in danger of succumbing to Sharia law? I'm seriously interested to know how an organization that controls about a third of mighty Lebanon can force its will on the United States.
 
408J-Bar
      ID: 292552222
      Sun, Mar 23, 2008, 22:34
tree -- you in full support of obama is all the proof i need of his far left stances.
 
409Tree
      ID: 57227243
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 05:30
tree -- you in full support of obama is all the proof i need of his far left stances.

yea, because me and my very strong pro-israel beliefs puts me on the far left.
 
410walk
      ID: 2226244
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 06:25
That's right J-Bar, Tree is very pro-Israel, and faction in Israel
are anti-Obama, so how does that reconcile with Tree's views.
He, like some of the editors even in the Israeli newspapers, see
a leader who is TRYING to establish a platform for diplomacy
and bridge-building as a stronger proponent for global peace
than the run o' the mill leader who says all the things that are
pro-Israel, but cannot, cos it's way above our abilities, sort out a
practical and acceptable silver bullet solution.

Nothing wrong to me with Obama being "the most liberal." I do
not buy into the liberal = bad thing. I don't buy into the
conservative = bad thing either, but none of us actually say that.
We just thing Bush/Cheney = bad thing.

Madman, just "oy veh" regarding the amazing oil company
profits while at the same time the consumers are paying 3x
more than what they were when Bush took over ($1.42/gallon
vs. $3-something)...? That is not right.

Steve Houpt. I don't think that Obama's membership in that
church is the ONLY thing that matters. To me, that's the micro
view of this analysis-paralysis. It's the messages that are given
by our leaders, religious, or otherwise, and whether we believe
our candidates share these views, and to what extent. The
degree to which we believe these views, as we have each
respectively researched them, are also representative of the
leader's (religious or otherwise) overall beliefs and values, and
the basis for these views.

I believe that Obama is a rather different and potentially special
leader who is more willing than most to try and establish a more
intelligent political discourse with members of the parties, other
countries and the communities. I think McCain has also reached
across the aisle on many occasions, but to me, he runs on sound
bites also, has a dangerous view of foreign relations (and now,
with recent insights, potentially an inaccurate one at that), and is
not presidential. I also think he is endorsing many failed Bush
policies (no tax + war).

I think Hillary is a strong candidate at the wrong time and
practices too much 'me" politics and is very divisive and has a lot
of anti-Hillary resentment that she cannot overcome, and will
make it difficult for her to govern. I agree with a lot of policies
and some of her political views, but not her leadership style or
campaign tactics.

Ultimately, I have drunk the Obama kool aide and do wonder
how so many folks, on the Dem side, can overlook the potential
chance to have a potentially transformational leader take over as
opposed to a known divisive leader. I'm assuming on the
republican side, which is not bad (aaaar), it's about policy
differences, but if folks who were leaning towards Obama are
now turned off cos of his association with Wright, then they to
me are the dummies who just cannot understand the nuance
that Obama delivered very well in his speech afterwards.
 
411walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:03
Fox News Anchors Walk off Set due to Obama-Bashing
 
412Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:17
Please name one aspect of the country, education, economy, national security, etc... that being a good speech maker will help improve.

The only advantage to Obama could be the constant whining by the Left would finally stop. It will comparable to divorcing the nagging wife, who was impossible to make happy.
 
413Perm Dude
      ID: 142412312
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:20
Obama is a good speech maker (and writer) because of the ideas being expressed in them.

Keep up with the potshots though, Jag. You are an example of the kind of politics that people are trying to eliminate. Keep making yourself a target.
 
414Perm Dude
      ID: 142412312
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:25
Former head of Office of Legal Counsel for George HW Bush and Ronald Reagan endorses Obama

Another far lefter. It is amazing how often, when people actually read and listen to what Obama is saying, suddenly they are jerked to the far left under his Jim Jones-like charisma and unthinkingly endorse the guy. It is freakish.
 
415Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:28
"Being a good speech maker" is an asset to all of those things.

Of course debating the merits of public speech rather than actual issue positions tells us much more about your value to the country as a voter.

I'll take this moment to express again how happy I am to see Steve Houpt and Madman posting again. After years of posts like 395, 397, 408 and 412 becomming the standard for rightist talking points around here (well that and complaints from the authors of such posts for not getting the respect their salient political points deserve) it's great to be able to talk about politics and current events with grown-ups again.
 
416Boldwin
      ID: 8248236
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:34
But can the liberals be trusted to mind their manners sitting at the adult table?
 
417Perm Dude
      ID: 142412312
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:37
The question people are actually asking, however, is: Can the country continue on the way it is, knowing that conservatives lost theirs some time ago?
 
418Tree
      ID: 4129246
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:38
MITH - please add 416 to your list.

i'll say it again. i've rarely - if ever - agreed with madman and steve. but their posting really helps improve the discourse around here, and i think that makes it more enjoyable for everyone around.
 
419walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:41
Boldwin, are you referring to liberals around here or liberals in Congress. I don't see a whole lot of behavior in both places that would indicated that the liberals behave more poorly than the conservatives. I think in Congress, the republicans have been meaner the last 8 years, and on these boards, I think soem of the comments by Jag and you sometimes are more mean-spirited. So, I don't get it, but I'd rather hear or talk about issues, preferences and aptitude in either context.

Or, we could vote for Obama and all just get along. Tee hee.

Word on #415 (and MITH, the herbalaire just rocks).

Jag, you REALLY think Obama is "just" a good speech maker? Come on now...really, really...is that what you think?
 
420walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:48
Novak: Deepening Democratic Dilemma
 
421walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:54
Kristol: We don't need a Conversation about Race
 
422Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 10:59
How was that a potshot at Obama?

I have not made a single post giving a damn about his association with Wright. My only critisism has been whether his policy will reflect his speeches or his voting record, which are totally different and the ridiculous cheap shop he took at Ferraro, both are legitimate questions.

I wouldn't care if Obama ran a whorehouse and hated puppies, if his policies were Moderate. I am stauchly anti-Liberal and believe it is a failed policy, that can be blamed for the majority of American ills for the past 30 years.

Since when has it become fashionable to form an opinion of a politician by his words and not look at his voting record?
 
423Perm Dude
      ID: 142412312
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 11:00
Since adults realized that a slice of a person's voting record isn't a very good picture of how they will act in another job, Jag.
 
424walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 11:07
Hey PD, I'd Jag a little slack on #422. He is now basically saying that based on his voting record, he's too liberal for me. I feel that if folks do not agree, policy/issues-wise, then a debate about what policy works best and what's best for the country is in order. However, that's different than "he's just a good speechmaker" (cos I feel that's just a lame talking point bias).

In terms of your post. I also agree that the voting record is not necessarily a full pic of what the guy would do as president. The president has a very different role, and Obama, to me (and to many, and I think to you) has indicated a different approach to working with others and trying to do what is best for this country. However, back to Jag's point, that would certainly have a "liberal bias," (as Bush's has a very conservative bias). I think Obama would have less of a bias though in an attempt to bridge and build consensus as opposed to "my way or the highway."
 
425walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 11:10
NY Mag: Obama will not survive Wright

This from my local magazine, NY Magazine, which is pro-Dem. I sure hope they are wrong on wright, but this is a very gray area.
 
426Perm Dude
      ID: 142412312
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 11:12
I agree--I think #422 was a good clarification. But I also don't think these "most liberal voting record" schemes are altogether helpful to those actually trying to make up their mind. At best, they are used by people who have already decided and are merely trying to argue against someone.
 
427walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 11:21
Agreed on #426, PD. I guess most of us have made up our minds and use this forum as a means for sorta convincing, showing, informing, educating the others and our similar thinking types about who might be the best candidate...for this particular time. I certainly have these discussions, as I imagine many here also do, with others who are not poli posters here, and use the same reasoning, points. I think some comments made here by some folks are intended to get a rise out of others and initiate discussion, and some are intended to shed light on potential blind spots of supporters about their candidates even though these points may lack context or "nuance." I love that nuance shite.

I wonder what is going to happen to this Dem nomination and general election? I can never see Hillary quitting. Just cannot fathom it. And, I cannot see Obama quitting cos he's ahead...but I could never have thought McCain could beat both, but he is now polling ahead of both cos of this current limbo status for the Dems. I think eventually the Dems will win the general election cos McCain will be exposed as sorta outta touch, uninformed in economics and just a little too old to provide the change that a lot of folks are calling for. However, another side of me fears a scenario that I don't think it most likely, but still a distinct possibility: Somehow Hillary gets the nom, and as a result so many Dem voters are disenfranchised, dissed, disgusted, discouraged, that they either opt out or vote for McCain. I've spoken to a few fellow Obama supporters and some have indicated that they would vote for Hillary but others have indicated that they would not. I do not see this trend in reverse (Hillary supporters not voting for Obama).
 
428Boldwin
      ID: 8248236
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 11:21
What has Obama actually done that indicates he is willing to 'work with' anyone who disgrees with him? Why isn't his modus operandi in congress the very best indicator of whether his actions will bear any resemblance to his words? Is his idea of change just reversing the Reagan Revolution and going backwards to the old Ted Kenedy/Tip O'Neil socialism or genuinely something new?
 
429Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 11:24
Mith, I may not excel at formal writing, but atleast my work lacks your hypocrasy and Tree's idiocy. Only you could take a childish potshot at someone, while talking about being adult. All that is missing now is a Seattle Zen cartoon or one of his short expletive filled retorts and an irrelevant post by Tree, who has never made a thought provoking comment for as long as I have read this forum.
 
430Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 11:59
Walk, could you e-mail me at kidd184@hotmail.com
 
431Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 12:04
I can agree with 422/424.

I'd add that unless you know you're dealing with someone who chooses words carefully, you never really know what someone means when they use the word "liberal". Most of the rightists here use the word a lot more broadly than it's actual meaning.
 
432walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 12:26
I think us Obama-ites need to try and answer Boldwin's good questions, at least the first one, in #428. Off the top of my head, I cannot answer it, and would need to do some research. My initial answer speaks to what Obama says he would do, which also fuels the "this guy is nothing but a speech" criticism. Boldwin, I guess at this level, I feel that Obama is making a consistent and earnest attempt to stop divisiveness at his level and work more towards building consensus than either of the other two candidates, by far. In terms of actual things he has done using this MO, I'd need to do some research.
 
433Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 13:09
Some things Obama has claimed to do ... He also protected us from Exelon ... sorta
 
434Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 13:11
Walk 432 -- I feel that Obama is making a consistent and earnest attempt to stop divisiveness at his level and work more towards building consensus than either of the other two candidates, by far. Name a single significant piece of bipartisan legislation that Obama has supported, let alone helped engineer.

Compare that to McCain-Feingold, McCain-Kennedy, the Gang of 14, and you have some work to do to justify that statement.
 
435sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 13:17
Cant really use his US Senate time as a measuring stick. A freshman Senator has about as much clout in the Senate halls as any of you or I have.

His State time though, one of the more obvious examples would be is work in bringing together Law Enforcement, Public Defenders and others, to pass the legislation requiring Police Homicide Interrogations to be taped in IL.

Just one ex true, but off the top of my head, I think its a solid illustration of his ability to bring people o the table, and get discourse underway in a manner which can possibly achieve something.


See SB 15 (4th from the top)

 
436walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 13:31
I hearya, Madman, and it's a tough and valid question to answer. And I think McCain has more in his resume along the lines of what you seek, but I see Obama is trying to literally transcend the poli divisiveness in an aspirational and leadershp way. This I readily admit is based more on what he says than what he has done. He has also received some pretty good reviews from republican senators in terms of his style and sincerity. I guess this is to what I refer.
 
437walk
      ID: 181472714
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 13:35
NY Times: The Real McCain (?)

Interesting article that ultimately comes down to a "he said/she said" thing, but gets at what Madman was providing examples of: McCain's interest in crossing party lines. In this article's case: potential situations where McCain allegedly crossed party lines to: (1) leave the repub party and join the Dems; and (2) to be the VP on Kerry's 2004 presidential ticket. In both cases, McCain's folks deny he initiated these conversations, but I imagine the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I don't knock McCain for this, I laud him, and to the extent he still feels this way, and he's elected Pres, I'd be happier. However, currently, he's billing himself as a true conservative, so I dunno what to believe.
 
438Boldwin
      ID: 8248236
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 17:36
Walk

If my life depended on it I could not figure out anything Obama objectively means by all this divisive labeling he does and bragging about his own non-divisiveness except simply 'my position is good, anyone who disagrees with me is divisive'. Exactly what gives Obama the justification to get away with that?

How is that even non-divisive?

I'll take that deal with the media. From now on everthing I say is correct and the anyone who disagrees is only doing so out of a defective divisive character. See there? Now I am the transcedant kid. I have risen above divisiveness.
 
439Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 21:49
sarge 435 -- you sure about that?

Republicans controlled the Illinois General Assembly for six years of Obama's seven-year tenure. Each session, Obama backed legislation that went nowhere; bill after bill died in committee. During those six years, Obama, too, would have had difficulty naming any legislative ­achievements.

Then, in 2002, dissatisfaction with President Bush and Republicans on the national and local levels led to a Democratic sweep of nearly every lever of Illinois state government.
...
[New Senate Majority Leader] Jones appointed Obama sponsor of virtually every high-profile piece of legislation, angering many rank-and-file state legislators who had more seniority than Obama and had spent years championing the bills.

"I took all the beatings and insults and endured all the racist comments over the years from nasty Republican committee chairmen," State Senator Rickey Hendon, the original sponsor of landmark racial profiling and videotaped confession legislation yanked away by Jones and given to Obama, complained to me at the time. "Barack didn't have to endure any of it, yet, in the end, he got all the credit.

"I don't consider it bill jacking," Hendon told me. "But no one wants to carry the ball 99 yards all the way to the one-yard line, and then give it to the halfback who gets all the credit and the stats in the record book."


The piece goes on to argue that Jones' district has been rewarded handsomely with earmarks from Obama.

Walk 436 -- I don't want bipartisanship. I was just giving you food for though since that was your expressed desire.

I don't know what you mean by a "true conservative" ... but I do agree that we don't have the greatest information on what McCain would do as President, either. Statistical models have difficulty predicting his voting record, and in the absence of a clear ideology, it's hard to know how much he's just giving lip-service versus how much he's making political promises he'll have to pay-back, and how much he really believes what he's going to say. And any Republican right now will be held to the alter of "no tax increases" ... I have some hope that he'll be courageous and work with Dems on immigration, because that does seem like a core belief on his part ... and I suspect he'll push for the 60% carbon reduction or compromise at a higher percentage ... but in general, it's not entirely clear what his domestic policies would be like. I'm not in the camp that believes his "maverick" label is a misnomer.
 
440J-Bar
      ID: 292552222
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 22:09
i do not see what the prob was with 385 but anyway the new dream ticket that can't be beat is Mccain /Lieberman. i know it's killing all those that had this election in their back pocket and see it slip sliding away. and then how would the Dems now denigrate a man that they voted for 4 yrs ago. oh the dilemma
 
441J-Bar
      ID: 292552222
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 22:10
8 yrs ago sorry
 
442J-Bar
      ID: 292552222
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 22:25
now that's crossing party lines
 
443Tree
      ID: 511251614
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 23:06
like all the rest of your silly posts, j-bar, the above isn't any different...

there's no dilemma in not supporting lieberman. his beliefs and mine don't really jibe. why would i support someone who i feel doesn't represent my belief system?
 
444J-Bar
      ID: 292552222
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 23:16
according to walk, obama doesn't support your belief system. but i guess i'm just being silly
 
445Tree
      ID: 511251614
      Mon, Mar 24, 2008, 23:47
actually, you're being an idiot.

obama shares my most important belief - that we can do better, that we can make this country a better place, and that we can all work together to do this.

 
446Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 01:12
the new dream ticket that can't be beat is Mccain /Lieberman.

Well, both are unapologetic war supporters whose only approach is to call for victory without even beginning to define what victory looks like in Iraq. That may or may not play with voters this fall, depending on whether or not the opposition is able to provide clarity in defining a strategy that combines stability with immediate troop withdrawls and a realization that segregation by region is a reality that even now is being implemented, even if somewhat clandestinely, since only a brutal dictator like Saddam or a massive long-term US military presence can continue the farce of a unified Iraq.

Unless Hillary can work a political hijacking(still possible), an Obama/Richardson ticket now seems likely. Obama's pledge to meet face to face with Ahmadinejad, (astonishingly opposed by Baldwin and like-thinking right wingers - You realize Iran, the official government of Iran is the worldwide leader of the shiite version of al qeada, namely Hamas and the only dialog they want with us is exactly what day we are willing to institute sharia. What dialog do you think the trancendant kid is gonna achieve there?) - needs to part of the strategy going forward. It's almost like they don't pay attention when Ahmadinejad visits Baghdad and gets a royal welcome from the Shiite government and even President Talabani, a Kurd. Who in their right mind would think it's a sound policy to have Iraqi leaders meet with Iranian leaders while we sit on the sidelines and talk about victory and the incredible success of the surge?

It must be the same people who ignore that almost every Christian or secular Iraqi have either fled the country or sought sanctuary in Kurdistan; the same people who refuse to admit that Shiite religious leaders Al-Sadr, Al-Hakim and Al-Sistani have more political influence(and probably an equal amount of military prowess sans US forces) than the Shiite prime minister Nouri Al-Maliki, and that none of them have any influence with the Sunni Arabs or Sunni Kurds.

But most voters aren't really very well informed about the dynamics of Iraq and may well be swayed by the bombardment of "the surge is working, violence is way down, the Iraqi security forces will be taking over soon" and other "good news".

However, Bill Richardson has the political acumen to expose the current Iraq euphoria rhetoric being espoused more so than Obama, given his credentials. His presidential campaign centered on his pledge of a diplomatic blitz with all the players in the Middle East, which coincides with Obama's philosopy.

My fear is that an Obama/Richardson administration would be too sympathetic to the domestic entitlement programs that have contributed to a lazy work ethic as opposed to a laissez-faire work ethic.
 
447sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 11:11
RE 439...Yep, I'm quite sure. Account after account I have read re that Bill, credits Obama with getting people together to discuss and hammer out agreements. Where the source of sponsorship originates, I honestly dont know. I do know, that Obama is credited as the Official and Chief Sponsor of that legislation on the docket.

When I read Obamas book "Audacity of Hope:, this legislation is mentioned and I did some research/reading on it at the time. LEO Officials were amongst the most vocally opposed to the legislation and then amongst the most vocal supporters of Obama RE that same legislation after they had met and discussed their mutual concerns.
 
448Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 11:51
sarge 447 -- you have any idea why Hendon would claim that he ran the ball 99 yards with Obama just putting the finishing touches on it? You have any citations you can link to?
 
449sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 11:54
Read the book over a yr ago IIRC MM.

As for the metaphor, whose to say how accurate it is? Maybe Hendon did "run the ball" 50 yds, or 70, or 38 or even 99, but oculdnt get it across. *shrug* I dont know. Facts are facts though...and the fact is, Obama got it done.
 
450Perm Dude
      ID: 7221257
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 12:43
David Brooks on Hillary Clinton: "She possesses the audacity of hopelessness."
 
451Pancho Villa
      ID: 47161721
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 13:08
Carville confirms he's an idiot

WASHINGTON — Hillary Rodham Clinton adviser James Carville is refusing to apologize for comparing New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson to Judas.

Carville made the comparison to The New York Times after Richardson, once a member of former President Bill Clinton's Cabinet, endorsed Clinton rival Barack Obama last week for the Democratic presidential nomination. Carville called it an "act of betrayal," and pointed out that it came around Holy Week.

"Mr. Richardson's endorsement came right around the anniversary of the day when Judas sold out (Jesus) for 30 pieces of silver, so I think the timing is appropriate, if ironic," he said.

Richardson told "Fox News Sunday" over the weekend that he wouldn't respond by getting "in the gutter like that."

"That's typical of many of the people around Senator Clinton," Richardson said on Fox. "They think they have a sense of entitlement to the presidency."

 
452steve houpt
      ID: 451161019
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 20:08
OT - walk - familiar with “Professional in Human Resources” [PHR & SPHR] certification? Still work in HR at a NYC bank? [headquarters ?]

Back to Obama:

Walk #427 - I think eventually the Dems will win the general election cos McCain will be exposed as sorta outta touch, uninformed in economics and just a little too old to provide the change that a lot of folks are calling for. - I tend to agree on the age and the economics and that the polls mean nothing now [except that it shows how easy it is to sway the American public from day to day - Obama drops 10 points after Wright and goes back up about the same after giving a speech]. But the cable networks are great at using the POLLS to MAKE news and controversy.

Personally, I worry about McCain’s age. He just looks old. Maybe he's still sharp, but I don't get that feeling. I'm only 58 and there is no way I'd want that pressure and that grinding schedule. I have to watch my blood pressure and my 'stress' today was deciding which way to walk on the beach, north or south. :) And there is no way I’d even want to try and go back to 16 hour shifts on deployments at my age.

I can see how easy it is for someone to just listen to what Obama says and take it for what it’s worth. I won't drink the whole glass of Obama kool-ade and try to look past his speeches and what he says. But I've taken a few sips every once in a while - Obama is good at what he does - convinced me if I had a choice of being screwed equally into paying more taxes by him or Hillary that I'd love to have Obama do it while smiling at me and telling me it was my patriotic duty to pay more. Obama could be worse [and more left] than Hillary and somehow I’d feel better with him than Hillary, why, because of how he says what he says - that means some of the kool-ade has gotten into my tap water - it makes no realistic sense to think that way, but …………. [oh, you know when you really get screwed on your taxes - when you have no more dependents and are not yet 65].

============== Sewell must have read my #382 It's just fun to watch the left tie themselves in knots trying to convince themselves this is 'nothing'. - except he thought it was ‘painful’.

Audacity of Rhetoric - Thomas Sowell

It is painful to watch defenders of Barack Obama tying themselves into knots trying to evade the obvious.

.......... Barack Obama's own account of his life shows that he consciously sought out people on the far left fringe. In college, "I chose my friends carefully," he said in his first book, "Dreams From My Father."

.......... ......... Obama didn't just happen to encounter Jeremiah Wright, who just happened to say some way out things. Jeremiah Wright is in the same mold as the kinds of people Barack Obama began seeking out in college -- members of the left, anti-American counter-culture.

.......... There is no evidence that Obama ever sought to educate himself on the views of people on the other end of the political spectrum, much less reach out to them. He reached out from the left to the far left. That's bringing us all together? - Is "divisiveness" defined as disagreeing with the agenda of the left?

 
453Perm Dude
      ID: 7221257
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 21:01
From his book, he sought out the church, not the pastor. In fact, it is during a clearly confessional part of the book in which he reveals what seems to be a bit of a hole in his life he actively sought to fill.

And this whole "guilt by association" thing is really turning silly. There is no evidence of Obama being "anti-American" and those critics know it. So they keep carping over and over again that Rev Wright is.

I think you might be right about McCain. I would have loved to see him win the Republican nomination 6 years ago. He might be just too old right now.
 
454Boldwin
      ID: 8248236
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 21:29
he sought out the church, not the pastor - PD

Uhm, Wright isn't the only BLT minister there. They all are. That's who they are. It's what they do.
 
455Perm Dude
      ID: 7221257
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 21:34
And what do you do? Paint them all as evil and let God sort them out?

A nest of vipers there apparently. And all you have are whispers and vile predictions about Obama, because you simply can't find anything directly.
 
456steve houpt
      ID: 451161019
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 21:39
PD - it's not guilt by association, it's not silly, it's judgement. You can't see that?

I think it's a little silly to say 'From his book, he sought out the church, not the pastor'. Wright WAS THE CHURCH.

This is supposed to be from Obama's autobiography.

Obama chose Trinity United. He picked Jeremiah Wright. Obama writes in his autobiography that on the day he chose this church, he felt the spirit of black memory and history moving through Wright, and "felt for the first time how that spirit carried within it, nascent, incomplete, the possibility of moving beyond our narrow dreams." - Rolling Stone article

========= maybe the NY Times will counter act the kool ade. NY Times - Obama, his minister and serch for faith - APR 2007 - APRIL 2007

..... Twenty years ago at Trinity, Mr. Obama, then a community organizer in poor Chicago neighborhoods, found the African-American community he had sought all his life, along with professional credibility as a community organizer and an education in how to inspire followers. He had sampled various faiths but adopted none until he met Mr. Wright, a dynamic pastor who preached Afrocentric theology, dabbled in radical politics and delivered music-and-profanity-spiked sermons.

[cont] .... It is hard to imagine, though, how Mr. Obama can truly distance himself from Mr. Wright. The Christianity that Mr. Obama adopted at Trinity has infused not only his life, but also his campaign. He began his presidential announcement with the phrase “Giving all praise and honor to God,” a salutation common in the black church. He titled his second book, “The Audacity of Hope,” after one of Mr. Wright’s sermons, and often talks about biblical underdogs, the mutual interests of religious and secular America, and the centrality of faith in public life.

[cont] ...... Though minister after minister told Mr. Obama he would be more credible if he joined a church, he was not a believer.

“I remained a reluctant skeptic, doubtful of my own motives, wary of expedient conversion, having too many quarrels with God to accept a salvation too easily won,” he wrote in his first book, “Dreams From My Father.”

Still, Mr. Obama was entranced by Mr. Wright, whose sermons fused analysis of the Bible with outrage at what he saw as the racism of everything from daily life in Chicago to American foreign policy.

[cont] ....... It was a 1988 sermon called “The Audacity to Hope” that turned Mr. Obama, in his late 20s, from spiritual outsider to enthusiastic churchgoer. Mr. Wright in the sermon jumped from 19th-century art to his own youthful brushes with crime and Islam to illustrate faith’s power to inspire underdogs. Mr. Obama was seeing the same thing in public housing projects where poor residents sustained themselves through sheer belief. ....... Mr. Obama was baptized that year, and joining Trinity helped him “embrace the African-American community in a way that was whole and profound,” said Ms. Soetoro, his half sister.


 
457Perm Dude
      ID: 7221257
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 21:48
I don't think Obama is even trying to distance himself from Wright in the way many pundits have in their heads, Steve. Nor should he, IMO. Maybe it is the "inside the beltway" mentality that insists that he completely reject the man as well as the man's message. Ironically, many of those calls are coming from people who say "love the sinner, hate the sin" which seems to be exactly what Obama is doing.

The reason I believe Obama will weather this storm is simple: We aren't electing Rev. Wright to anything. It really doesn't matter how much froth is kicked up here, the supposed hate and anti-Americanism that people are getting from Rev Wright (which seems to be OK with Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson) simply isn't reflected in Barrack Obama.
 
458Perm Dude
      ID: 7221257
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 21:51
I meant to add: Obama chose that church for a number of reasons, but mostly it was to fill a spiritual need. The fact that he later got out of it a hopeful look at a situation which many people would find oppressive actually misses the point. He didn't choose that church because years later the head pastor would give a wandering sermon in which he damns the US--that is twisting the whole timeline around.
 
459Boldwin
      ID: 8248236
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 22:08
Yeah he just accidentally wandered into that once or twice...that'll sell.
 
460Tree
      ID: 02582518
      Tue, Mar 25, 2008, 22:31
the rightists on this board are doing the exact sort of thing that Obama has said he is attempting to change.

the more i read and hear the smear tactics coming from the Right, the more i believe Obama is 100 percent correct in everything he is trying to do, and the right person for the job.
 
461Perm Dude
      ID: 372112522
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 01:11
#459: That isn't what I am "selling." I guess, once again, it is easy to attack what someone isn't saying.

Baldwin: Just read his book. Stop posting from ignorance. You just sound like an idiot with these potshots from the dark.
 
462Boldwin
      ID: 53211263
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 05:28
The book may very well say he doesn't particularly like the tenents of BLT but merely chose the church because it was the most politically influencial church in his community.

Why you would take him at his word for that amounts to wishful thinking of course. We all know politicians can be taken at their word.

Are you going to tell us the book paints him as a nominal member who didn't believe anything he was taught or that he accepted what he was taught? Either his twenty year oddessy at Wright's church was just for show or he believes in BLT, the kind that fundamentally to the core 24/7 GD's America. Or was a torn soul twisting in agnostic agony whether to GD Amrica? Please tell us PD. Give us a book report. You've read it yourself of course? Which one of those flattering options is it?

What I do know is that BLT is not merely incidental to that church and your constant assertions to the contrary are foolish. Again wishful thinking on your part.
 
463Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 11:07
Why you would take him at his word

As opposed to your approach, which is to take Rev Wright at the parsed words of a sermon and then apply them to Obama? I don't know---let a man's words stand on their own, or let another man's words (which have been rejected by the first man) taint him? Hmmmm. How would Jesus slander?

You want to make this about BLT. Start another thread. There's no indication that Obama shares the problems you see (or don't see, since you refuse to research before opining). No, I won't be your Cliff's Notes.

Meanwhile: Wright "would not have been my pastor"

But Hillary's pastor on Rev Wright paints a positive picture

Hillary surrogates, seemingly discontent that the marketplace of ideas has passed by their wish that Obama be taken down by Rev Wright, ratchet up the rhetoric themselves (I suspect this is how a President Hillary Clinton would do a lot of things: Lots of needless politically-driven tinkering of things when it isn't going her way).

Wait! That's what we have now, isn't it?
 
464Boldwin
      ID: 53211263
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 11:27
In what way were his words parsed?

Sticking around 20 years, putting him on your campaign team and standing by him even now is not my definition of rejection.
 
465Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 11:50
Ever heard of "Love the sinner, hate the sin?" I guess in your form of Jesus it is "Hate the sinner. Shun him so he doesn't taint you."

Nice Christian attitude.
 
466Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 15:44
Madman 359
you were hypothesizing that Axelrod was misrepresenting Obama's position vis a vis Ferraro dismissal.

[Sorry I'm just getting to this now. Easter Sunday and fantasy baseball endeavors were calling.] I have to concede that likelihood doesn't seem as plausible to me as it did at the time that I wrote it. In fact I think you were much closer to right when you wrote in post 239, "Perhaps Obama has achieved a new level of wisdom in the past 8 days." I'm aware this was sarcasm but it looks likely to me nevertheless, as I suggested in post 324.


To all -- do you really want to stick to the 1 / 3 sermon defense?

What's the '1 / 3 sermon defense'? Is that a reference to the argument that all of Wright's controversial statements were pulled from but three sermons over his decades-long career? If so, the answer to your question (for me) is 'most certainly' (and the answer to your follow-up is no). The point isn't that you should excuse Wright's occasional controversial sermons because there have only been three (or ten) of them, it's that there is no evidence to support the increasingly broad assertion that these forays into BLT and other controversial topics are definitive traits of TUCC. While you may not have explicitly supported this argument (you seemed to initially, but then back off), this unfounded assertion has been an assumptive theme of the character assassination that the right wing media and blogosphere have perpetrated upon Obama. It's the groundwork for the not so subtly propagated notion that Obama himself is a black liberation theologist, or at least harbors strong and dangerous BLT beliefs.

And of course evidence of that character assassination is far more prevalent than that of his actually harboring BLT ideals. Since his speech on Tuesday of last week, I've watched, heard and read through numerous distortions of what Obama said and meant that day. For example, that night on Special Report with Brit Hume, guest Fred Barnes from The Weekly Standard declared, "But the part that bothered me the most was his excusing and explaining away, usually by ideological equivalents, the things that Reverend Wright had said. He said, just like Geraldine Ferraro and what she had said..." In fact both you and Jag in this thread both succumbed to this same distortion.

Charles Krauthammer's column from Friday, "The Speech: A Brilliant Fraud" is another strong example. One only need read the exchange in posts 296 - 304 in this thread to realize that Krauthammer's assessment of the speech requires that he ignores much of it. Anyone who reads that column, having not heard or read the speech, would never believe it included anything like the ideas in post 299. Further, he not only espouses the patently dishonest Wright/Ferraro/ moral equivalency charge, but also accuses Obama of employing sentiments of white guilt as an excuse for his long standing relationship with Wright. He writes:
His defense rests on two central propositions: (a) moral equivalence and (b) white guilt

(a) Moral equivalence. Sure, says Obama, there's Wright, but at the other "end of the spectrum" there's Geraldine Ferraro, opponents of affirmative action and his own white grandmother, "who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe." But did she shout them in a crowded theater to incite, enrage and poison others?

"I can no more disown [Wright] than I can my white grandmother." What exactly was Grandma's offense? Jesse Jackson himself once admitted to the fear he feels from the footsteps of black men on the street. And Harry Truman was known to use epithets for blacks and Jews in private, yet is revered for desegregating the armed forces and recognizing the first Jewish state since Jesus's time. He never spread racial hatred. Nor did Grandma.

Yet Obama compares her to Wright. Does he not see the moral difference between the occasional private expression of the prejudices of one's time and the use of a public stage to spread racial lies and race hatred?

(b) White guilt. Obama's purpose in the speech was to put Wright's outrages in context. By context, Obama means history. And by history, he means the history of white racism. Obama says, "We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country," and then he proceeds to do precisely that. What lies at the end of his recital of the long train of white racial assaults from slavery to employment discrimination? Jeremiah Wright, of course.
Could he possibly be more disingenuous? The point of discussing the historical context of Wright's "outrages" (I'll use that term going forward) has nothing to do with "white guilt". Krauthammer commits his blatant and gross distortions by rearranging the context of the speech. Obama spent 5 paragraphs explaining that the outrages we've seen make up only a small part of Rev. right's character and TUCC.

After those 5, the first sentence of the next paragraph is a statement that Krauthammer and most of the character assassins on the right have ignored; "I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community." After this sentence is when he says the same thing about his white grandmother and elaborates some on her racist musings. But the sentence about the black community is a much more telling and important statement.

Because it's after the paragraph that began with this statement about disowning the black community that he begins to explain the origins of Wright's "outrages". The elephant in the room - the concept that I have yet to see addressed by anyone on the political right - an issue that I have raised numerous times in this thread only to be ignored each time (except for post 206 where the notion was simply dismissed) - is that the many of the opinions espoused by Wright in his "outrages" are not as limited to the extreme peripherals of the black community as white America seems or wants to think.

I believe the real reasons Obama didn't leave the church or reject Wright or presumably did not regularly challenge him over the years are that he wasn't all that taken aback by them, that he'd heard it all before much more regularly and openly than most of us white folks at Rotoguru care to consider, and more often and openly than we've heard similar talk from our elders and community leaders.

I really don't understand why the right has so much trouble with this concept. The left might not be comfortable with it, but at least we can put it on the table. You don't think that sketch is just simple satire alone, and nothing more, do you?

So here's the question again: how likely it is that one can regularly attend an African American church - especially in Chicagoland - and not occasionally be subjected to controversial opinions along the lines of what we hear from Rev. Wright? As I've noted several times, TUCC is the largest black congregation in the Chicago Metropolitan Area. A church shouldn't be able to attain such a status without adhering to a largely mainstream message. However often Wright committed his "outrages" over the course of his career, it probably wasn't very much more or less often than the mainstream churchgoing black community in Chicago expected to hear them in that window of time. I hope and suspect the frequency of them diminished over the years.

Obama cannot disown Wright just as he can't disown the black community.

You criticized Obama for omitting references to MLK in his speech and suggested that this indicates a sympathy toward Wright's opinions on his part. I imagine you are aware that not everything that Rev. King said was as uplifting as I Have A Dream. That much of what Wright has been blasted for saying is not so different from things that King has said. A Newsday article from last weekend brought the following to my attention:

In a 1967 speech at the Riverside Church in NYC, MLK called the USA "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today"

In a 1968 speech at the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta he said, "We’ve committed more war crimes almost than any nation in the world, and I'm going to continue to say it. And we won't stop it because of our pride and our arrogance as a nation.

But God has a way of even putting nations in their place. (Amen) The God that I worship has a way of saying, "Don't play with me." (Yes) He has a way of saying, as the God of the Old Testament used to say to the Hebrews, "Don’t play with me, Israel. Don't play with me, Babylon. (Yes) Be still and know that I'm God. And if you don't stop your reckless course, I'll rise up and break the backbone of your power." (Yes) And that can happen to America. (Yes) Every now and then I go back and read Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. And when I come and look at America, I say to myself, the parallels are frightening."


And yet I've never once - in my lifetime - heard anyone question the patriotism or love for country of those who include MLK among their role models. Why is that?

And of course the presence of many of these elements in African American culture is not dissimilar from certain elements the cultures of older generations in our families. Should I hold my grandparents to the same standards of judgment for remaining faithful to the Catholic Church through their refusal to publicly condemn the particular atrocities of the Holocaust? Should I question their judgment and wonder aloud whether I should view their contributions to their parishes as support for the Church's silence? I don't. Because for them I believe the Church experience meant far more than one or another particular political position of the Vatican. They were there to worship and be a part of the church community. A priest or pastor they disagreed with couldn't change their loyalty to the Church.

Madman if I remember correctly you are a member of the LDS Church and you are also about the same age as me (35). Assuming that's right and that you inherited your religion from your parents, do you openly question their judgment in sticking with a faith that banned blacks from the priesthood? Do you view the contributions they made to the church prior to the change as an endorsement of that policy?
 
467Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 16:22
Nice post, MITH. Obama cannot disown Wright just as he can't disown the black community. Exactly.

Anyone know anything about Martin Marty?
 
468walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 17:40
Little Essay on Obama and Nietzsche vs. Nihilism

Philosophy aside, I think this author is trying to say what many are trying to say about Obama -- that he stands for something bigger and different and more aspirational than the other candidates. This is not meant to persuade, but to shed some light on why some folks are intending to vote for him.
 
469walk
      ID: 181472714
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 17:44
Another take on Wright

Lifted from Andrew Sullivan's lifting of Martin Marty.
 
470sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 17:44
<---thinks that 466 is a shining example of an extraordinarily well thought out post. Very nice MITH.
 
471steve houpt
      ID: 451161019
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 18:24
PD - I don't think Obama should reject Wright. That would destroy him and his chances IMHO. He can't at this point. It would be seen as political. If he was going to make a political calculation to distance himself, it would have had to have been when he entered the campaign [or shortly after]. He can't do it now. Just has to deal with it. I'm just pointing out facts to "the tied in knots silliness being posted" by Obama supporters why this will or should not matter.

COLD HARD FACT: Wright is a factor in the election. How much, it only takes 1-2% in the right places to swing an election. So, who knows, especially with the advantage should have going in. But, there is no getting around it that some voters in this country will not like hearing "god damm america" with all the other things Wright said [no matter what the context was and no matter what Obama said about it]. It's a factor in the election. And Obama is no pure and clean politician. Look at how he [and Hillary] uses McCain comments out of context. Obama is just a plain old everyday nasty [white or black, dem or rep, male or female] politician that was able to talk a good clean game for a while.

I don't see tree or you complaining about what Obama and Hillary continuously repeat about McCain and the fighting a 100 year war in Iraq when he never said anything like they are implying. So give me a break with your [tree - 357] crying and whining about smear tactics [if my post, was quoting FACTS from NY Times - FACTS]. It's hillarious. Just tying yourself in some more knots. Why keep trying to convince each other 'this does not matter', when it does? Just a fact of political life. --------- FACT: What McCain said at a townhall meeting in New Hampshire in January. He was asked about President Bush’s comment that we could stay in Iraq for 50 years. McCain replied, “Make it 100. We’ve been in South Korea . . . we’ve been in Japan for 60 years. We’ve been in South Korea for 50 years or so. That would be fine with me. As long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed, that’s fine with me. I hope that would be fine with you, if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where al-Qaeda is training, recruiting and equipping and motivating people every single day.”

And Hillary and Obama saying "100 year war" over and over will matter with some voters. Does not matter how out of context it is. As Bill Clinton said, ["If a politician doesn't wanna get beat up, he shouldn't run for office. If a football player doesn't want to get tackled or want the risk of an a occasional clip he shouldn't put the pads on."]

First REad MSNBC

I hope Hillary and Obama continue to wipe the liberal carpet with each other for a few more months.

It makes watching the news fun. And now that Hillary has piped in on Wright [to keep it alive after not mentioning it for over a week], it's hard for me to see how this is a 'right' thing. ABC made it national. I watch MSNBC and CNN and see Wright all the time - although Hillary had most of the coverage last night for her Bosnia escapade.

On CNN, Lanny Davis had to repeat every comment Wright said while answering a question if he thought Hillary's comment that Wright would not be my pastor was OK. Lanny Davis did not say yes or no, but -- "I think it's a legitimate way that she said it, which is that she personally would not put up with somebody who says that 9/11 are chickens who come home to roost, that Israel is a state-sponsored organization — nation, and that there are generic comments made about America .."

 
472Boldwin
      ID: 332562616
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 19:03
he'd heard it all before much more regularly and openly than most of us white folks at Rotoguru care to consider - MITH

Tell it to PD.
 
473Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 19:07
Outstanding post 446, just great!

I'm not voting for "Hundred Years War" McCain, Steve. And here I thought he got that nickname because he was a prisoner of the French back in the original Hundred Years War.
 
474Boldwin
      ID: 332562616
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 19:11
MITH

So you really don't think he owes Amricans his position statement on America and where he parts company with Wright?

I gotta tell you I don't think that works. Oh the complicit MSM has already 'moved on'...a service they render Dem candidates but not Republicans. Still that ember is gonna stay lit without special efforts to put it out.
 
475Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 19:27
steve 471
it's hard for me to see how this is a 'right' thing.

The leftist media has certainly contributed it's share to the feeding frenzy, which once again proves that media bias is always toward the sensational before to the left or right.

But on the right it's been simply carnal. Anyone see Pat Buchanan's column from Friday? Aside from the notion that African Americans should be grateful (!) that their ancestors were kidnapped, hellishly shipped as cargo to the other side of the world and sold into 15 generations of slavery followed by a century of American segregation (yes, let it sink in), the colum is a response to Obama's speech as if it were nothing more than a one-sided list of complaints from the black community.
My hunch was right. Barack would turn the tables.

Yes, Barack agreed, Wright's statements were "controversial," and "divisive," and "racially charged," reflecting a "distorted view of America."

But we must understand the man in full and the black experience out of which the Rev. Wright came: 350 years of slavery and segregation.

Barack then listed black grievances and informed us what white America must do to close the racial divide and heal the country.

The "white community," said Barack, must start "acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination -- and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past -- are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds ... ."
Did Pat run to the fridge for a beer when Obama expressed an understanding of the realities of certain white sentiments?
"So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.
Buchanan's column continues:
And what deeds must we perform to heal ourselves and our country?

The "white community" must invest more money in black schools and communities, enforce civil rights laws, ensure fairness in the criminal justice system and provide this generation of blacks with "ladders of opportunity" that were "unavailable" to Barack's and the Rev. Wright's generations.

What is wrong with Barack's prognosis and Barack's cure?

Only this. It is the same old con, the same old shakedown that black hustlers have been running since the Kerner Commission blamed the riots in Harlem, Watts, Newark, Detroit and a hundred other cities on, as Nixon put it, "everybody but the rioters themselves."
I might be a little young, but but I have trouble believing those black hustlers were saying anything like this:
For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life. But it also means binding our particular grievances - for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs - to the larger aspirations of all Americans -- the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives - by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny.

Ironically, this quintessentially American - and yes, conservative - notion of self-help found frequent expression in Reverend Wright's sermons. But what my former pastor too often failed to understand is that embarking on a program of self-help also requires a belief that society can change.

The profound mistake of Reverend Wright's sermons is not that he spoke about racism in our society. It's that he spoke as if our society was static; as if no progress has been made; as if this country - a country that has made it possible for one of his own members to run for the highest office in the land and build a coalition of white and black; Latino and Asian, rich and poor, young and old -- is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past. But what we know -- what we have seen - is that America can change. That is the true genius of this nation. What we have already achieved gives us hope - the audacity to hope - for what we can and must achieve tomorrow.
 
476Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 19:28
Boldwin you've been up in our draft since 12:30 this afternoon.
 
477biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 19:43
There are many in this country that will refuse to leave their easy and lucrative jobs as town howlers of divisiveness. They have no room in their lives or in their minds for the message that Obama brings, and will insist on twisting that message to fit the only paradigm that they know. Whether they don't understand what he's actually saying or simply can't, isn't clear.

The truth is, there are many in this country that are simply not ready for a black president and all that entails. Hopefully not too many.
 
478Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 20:17
Wright's speech, word by word, as he gave it on that faithful day, September 16th 2001:

“I heard Ambassador Peck on an interview yesterday did anybody else see or hear him? He was on FOX News, this is a white man, and he was upsetting the FOX News commentators to no end, he pointed out, a white man, an ambassador, he pointed out that what Malcolm X said when he was silenced by Elijah Mohammad was in fact true, he said Americas chickens, are coming home to roost.

We took this country by terror away from the Sioux, the Apache, Arikara, the Comanche, the Arapaho, the Navajo. Terrorism.

We took Africans away from their country to build our way of ease and kept them enslaved and living in fear. Terrorism.

We bombed Grenada and killed innocent civilians, babies, non-military personnel.

We bombed the black civilian community of Panama with stealth bombers and killed unarmed teenage and toddlers, pregnant mothers and hard working fathers.

We bombed Qaddafi’s home, and killed his child. Blessed are they who bash your children’s head against the rock.

We bombed Iraq. We killed unarmed civilians trying to make a living. We bombed a plant in Sudan to pay back for the attack on our embassy, killed hundreds of hard working people, mothers and fathers who left home to go that day not knowing that they’d never get back home.

We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye.

Kids playing in the playground. Mothers picking up children after school. Civilians, not soldiers, people just trying to make it day by day.

We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff that we have done overseas is now brought right back into our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost.

Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism. A white ambassador said that y’all, not a black militant. Not a reverend who preaches about racism. An ambassador whose eyes are wide open and who is trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice upon which we are now poised. The ambassador said the people we have wounded don’t have the military capability we have. But they do have individuals who are willing to die and take thousands with them. And we need to come to grips with that.”


Why did the common public get their unmentionables into a twist over this? What the hell? What is so awful about this speech? Must say I quite enjoyed it miself, like. Or is it the small unritten rule that an American is not supposed to aknowledge the fact that Americans go around the world killing people?
 
479Tree
      ID: 35292617
      Wed, Mar 26, 2008, 20:47
There are many in this country that will refuse to leave their easy and lucrative jobs as town howlers of divisiveness.

Obama hits on that in "The Audacity of Hope"...

When i see Ann Coulter or Sean Hannity baying across the television screen, I find it hard to take them seriously; I assume that they must be saying what they do primarily to boost book sales or ratings, although i do wonder who would spend their precious evenings with such sourpusses."
 
480Boldwin
      ID: 332562616
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 01:33
bitch

If hatred breeds hatred, then electing a president who hates us...
 
481Boldwin
      ID: 332562616
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 04:49
So many threads that need the following...
Hillary is being "swiftboated"!

She claimed that she came under sniper fire when she visited Bosnia in 1996, but was contradicted by videotape showing her sauntering off the plane and stopping on the tarmac to listen to a little girl read her a poem.

Similarly, John Kerry's claim to heroism in Vietnam was contradicted by 264 Swift Boat Veterans who served with him. His claim to having been on a secret mission to Cambodia for President Nixon on Christmas 1968 was contradicted not only by all of his commanders – who said he would have been court-martialed if he had gone anywhere near Cambodia – but also the simple fact that Nixon wasn't president on Christmas 1968.

In Hillary's defense, she probably deserves a Purple Heart about as much as Kerry did for his service in Vietnam.

Also, unlike Kerry, Hillary acknowledged her error, telling the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review: "I was sleep-deprived, and I misspoke." (What if she's sleep-deprived when she gets that call on the red phone at 3 a.m., imagines a Russian nuclear attack and responds with mutual assured destruction? Oops. "It proves I'm human.")

The reason no one claims Hillary is being "swiftboated" is that the definition of "swiftboating" is: "producing irrefutable evidence that a Democrat is lying." And for purposes of her race against matinee idol B. Hussein Obama, Hillary has become the media's honorary Republican.

In liberal-speak, only a Democrat can be swiftboated. Democrats are "swiftboated"; Republicans are "guilty." So as an honorary Republican, Hillary isn't being swiftboated; she's just lying.

Indeed, instead of attacking the people who produced a video of Hillary's uneventful landing in Bosnia, the mainstream media are the people who discovered that video.

I've always wondered how a Democrat would fare being treated like a Republican by the media. Now we know.

It's such fun watching liberals turn on the Clintons! The bitter infighting among Democrats is especially enjoyable after having to listen to Democrats hyperventilate for months about how delighted they were to have so many wonderful choices for president.

Now liberals just want to be rid of the Clintons – which is as close to actual mainstream thinking as they've been in years. So the media suddenly notice when Hillary "misspeaks," while rushing to make absurd excuses for much greater outrages by her opponent.

Liberals are even using the Slick Willy defense when Obama is caught fraternizing with a racist loon. When Bill Clinton was exposed as a philandering, adulterous, pathological liar, his defenders said that everybody is a philandering, adulterous, pathological liar.

And now, when B. Hussein Obama is caught in a 20-year relationship with a raving racist, his defenders scream that everybody is a racist wack-job.

In the Obama speech on race Chris Matthews deemed "worthy of Abraham Lincoln," B. Hussein Obama defended Wright's anti-American statements, saying:

"For the men and women of Rev. Wright's generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years. That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends. But it does find voice in the barbershop or around the kitchen table."

So in the speech the media are telling us is on a par with the Gettysburg Address, B. Hussein Obama casually informed us that even blacks who seem to like white people actually hate our guts.

First of all: Watch out the next time you get your hair cut by a black barber over the age of 50.

Second, Rev. Wright's world wasn't segregated.

And third, what about Wright's wanton anti-Semitism? All the liberals (including essence-besplattered Chris Matthews) have accepted Obama's defense of Wright and want us to understand Wright's "legitimate" rage over his painful youth in segregated America.

But the anti-Semitic tone of Wright's sermons is as clear as his rage against the United States. Rev. Wright calls Israel a "dirty word" and a "racist country." He denounces Zionism and calls for divestment from Israel.

In addition to videos of Rev. Wright's sermons, Obama's church also offers for sale sermons by Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan, whom Rev. Wright joined on a visit to Moammar Gadhafi in Libya in 1984. Just last year, Obama's church awarded Farrakhan the Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter Award, saying Farrakhan "truly epitomized greatness."

What, pray tell, is the legitimate source of Wright's anti-Semitism? I believe Brother Obama passed over that issue entirely in his "conversation," even as he made the obligatory bow to Israel's status as one of our "stalwart allies." Why does crazy "uncle" Wright dislike Jews?

Will liberals contend that these remarks were "taken out of context"? Maybe Wright's church was trying to say that Farrakhan isn't great when it said he "epitomized greatness." Who knows? We weren't there.

Can liberals please educate us on the "legitimate" impulses behind Rev. Wright's Jew-baiting?
- Ann Coulter devastating as always

We shouldn't have to just assume, absent any reassurance, that Obama differs with Wright on Farakhan, Moammar Gadhafi, the state of Isreal...actually Wright holds so many whacko ideas maybe Barak should just tell us what he agrees with him about?

 
482Tree
      ID: 34220274
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 06:30
So many threads that need the following...

yea, because we need to continue to read the mad ravings of an anti-black, anti-arab, inaccurate, lying, hate monger.

it's funny - what you're so quick to condemn Obama for, you even quicker to condone it when it comes from your masturbatory idol, Coulter.
 
483Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 07:50
boldwin 474
So you really don't think he owes Amricans his position statement on America and where he parts company with Wright?

He's already given it. Many times. You just have to look for it and I'm quite sure you know that WordNetDaily and Ann Coulter won't ever publish them for you.

Besides, lets part with this charade that any another such position statement would have any greater bearing on your opiniuon of Obama than these occasional controversial statements from his preacher. The notion is terribly dishonest on your part and you're an awful liar. You and the character assassins on the right have been trying to paint him as an America hater since long before Rev. Wright dominated news broadcasts for over a week.

You think no one has noticed that you've stopped calling him a radical muslim now that you have a radical negro charge with a better chance to stick?
 
484Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 08:27
Ann is a righty pundit who doesn't ignore Obama's admission that controversial public statements like Rev. Wright's are more commonplace in African American culture than anyone acknowledges. Of course she sarcastically rejects the notion outright, but at least she doesn't deliberately misrepresent him on the issue. She saves her misrepresentation points for statements like, "Rev. Wright's world wasn't segregated."
 
485steve houpt
      ID: 451161019
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 10:03
bili - #477 - The truth is, there are many in this country that are simply not ready for a black president and all that entails. Hopefully not too many.

May be true to a point [just look at break down of DEMS in primaries]. But even after the Wright fiasco and what I hear when Obama gets 'into specifics' on issues [I cringe] I still would rather have Obama than Hillary as President. He might be farther left, but, unlike Hillary, I think Obama at least believes what he says. Hillary, I'm not sure she even knows what she believes any more. I think someone tells her each morning what to 'believe' today.

I just am not as comfortable with Obama as I was before reading the Trinity Church doctrine or principles and listening to Wright [even if only 30 seconds] and some of Obama's 'excuses'.
 
486Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 10:06
Good post, steve (although shorter than usual).

:)

Part of the problem is probably our general uncomfortabilty with race.
 
487Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 10:28
what I hear when Obama gets 'into specifics' on issues [I cringe]

And yet, where is the cringing when McCain gets specific on issues, especially when he is specifically wrong on issues of utmost importance?

It's anything but an academic question after McCain's bizarre performance in Jordan last week.
There, he told reporters that he was ''concerned about Iranian [operatives] taking al-Qaida into Iran, training them and sending them back'' to Iraq. ''That's well known,'' he continued - at which point Lieberman whispered a correction in his ear. ''I'm sorry,'' McCain then said. ''The Iranians are training extremists, not al-Qaida.''
What are we to make of this moment? Was it a
senior moment? A jet-lagged moment? Or, worse, was it really a moment at all? After all, the evening before, McCain had told listeners of Hugh Hewitt's radio talk show that ''there are al-Qaida operatives that are taken back into Iran, given training as leaders, and they're moving back into Iraq.''


To be fair, I haven't heard either Hillary or Obama give an honest evaluation concerning the overall situation in Iraq, but at least neither has given a dishonest one like McCain.
 
488Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 10:48
So, if someone is against Obama's Liberal voting record, they are now deemed a racist.

If you disagree with socialism as an economic policy....

you are a racist.

If you disagree with the immediate withdraw from Iraq...

you are a racist.

If you are for school vouchers...

you are a racist.

If you believe man-made global warming should be debated...

you are a racist.

If you believe a fence should be built to stem illegal immigration...

you are a racist.

If you disagree with any of the far-left wing doctrine...

you are a racist.

You people do a great injustice to the word racism. You minimize it to a point where it is equated to someone that is not a socialist.
 
489Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 10:59
Some calling you a racist, Jag?
 
490Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:02
They'd insist otherwise but obviously political right are no strangers to victimology.

Sure Jag, you're called a racist for all those things. What a terrific representative you are for American conservatism.
 
491Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:12
Do I need to pull all the quotes together, where race and racism were injected into this thread?
 
492Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:16
Uh, Obama gave a speech about race. We all talked about it. No one "injected" race into this thread (and apparently directed it at you).
 
493Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:21
Do I need to pull all the quotes together

Just the ones where people were called racist for their positions on economics, Iraq, school vouchers, global warming, immigration (remember you said this thread) and any of the far-left wing doctrine.
 
494Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:27
I reread some of the posts and you are right, while racism is implied in many of them, the word is not directly used. But I still take offense by even the implication, I long for the day when there is a black nominee that reflects my opinions.
 
495Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:31
while racism is implied in many of them, the word is not directly used. But I still take offense by even the implication

OK tough guy, where is the charge of racism implied for positions on the topics I listed in 493?
 
496Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:33
No posts about Dave Chappelle's skit of a blind black KKK member, please.
 
497Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:39
I'll take that as an admission of nothing left to pull out of your fanny.
 
498Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:52
Mith, I am saying the sole reason many posters on this board are anti-Obama is his Liberal voting record and race should not be ejected.

"The truth is, there are many in this country that are simply not ready for a black president and all that entails. Hopefully not too many."

"yea, because we need to continue to read the mad ravings of an anti-black, anti-arab, inaccurate, lying, hate monger. "
 
499sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:54
Mith, I am saying the sole reason many posters on this board are anti-Obama is his Liberal voting record and race should not be ejected.

The left is trying to eject race and the right wont allow it. (IOW, your post is bassackwards.)
 
500Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 11:57
You seem to have a lot of pent up fustration, Mith. May I suggest you try a laxative, Midol, a woman, a blunt, valium or masturbation.
 
501Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 12:02
Jag
Take a breath. Now look at post 498 and notice how the second and third lines (quotes from bili and tree) do not in any way contradict the first line; that "the sole reason many posters on this board are anti-Obama is his Liberal voting record".

Tree referrs to the Coulter column linked and pasted into post 481. Bili's quote is in reaction (I believe) my assertions regarding the right wing media's reaction to Obama's speech. And I agree with him. Neither quote refers to anything "posters on this board" have written.




I think I've played enough at the kiddie-table for today.
 
502Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 12:53
"yea, because we need to continue to read the mad ravings of an anti-black, anti-arab, inaccurate, lying, hate monger. "

if you took that to heart, then you've got no one to blame but yourself for feeling how you do.

as that comment immediately followed a post containing a column from Coulter, i think it was pretty obvious it was aimed at her.
 
503Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 12:58
MITH 466 -- Complicated post here we come ... point by point, sorta ...

ONE "Perhaps Obama has achieved a new level of wisdom in the past 8 days." I'm aware this was sarcasm but it looks likely to me nevertheless, as I suggested in post 324. Well, sarcasm can be grounded in truth. It will be interesting to see how the campaign unfurls; I'm sure there will be additional opportunities to see if he'll withhold his racial punches.

TWOWhat's the '1 / 3 sermon defense'? Is that a reference to the argument that all of Wright's controversial statements were pulled from but three sermons over his decades-long career? If so, the answer to your question (for me) is 'most certainly' (and the answer to your follow-up is no). The point isn't that you should excuse Wright's occasional controversial sermons because there have only been three (or ten) of them, it's that there is no evidence to support the increasingly broad assertion that these forays into BLT and other controversial topics are definitive traits of TUCC. While you may not have explicitly supported this argument (you seemed to initially, but then back off), this unfounded assertion has been an assumptive theme of the character assassination that the right wing media and blogosphere have perpetrated upon Obama.

Unfounded assertion? Just because I don't provide references doesn't mean they don't exist. Since we apparently have to go here ... TUCC talking points "The vision statement of Trinity United Church of Christ is based upon the systematized liberation theology that started in 1969 with the publication of Dr. James Cone’s book, Black Power and Black Theology."

About TUCC For me, it's points 8-10 that present potential issues. #8 and maybe #9 present themselves as the oppressed on one level or another. 10's fine as an ideal, but is reflective of the religion-race-economic link that was present in Obama's speech that I've criticized in this thread. (and that, I've noticed, hasn't been responded to in any fashion ... namely that Obama's speech (a) incorrectly characterizes why racism exists in this country -- attributing it primarily to the lack of certain government-economic policies, and (b) provides a reason to believe that his chosen economic policy positions are truly held beliefs rather than mouthings to win the Democratic primary.)

As to the quantity of Wright's screed, I'll just throw things out there, mostly without links ... Feb. 20 in LR, he compared ancient Israelites as slaves to Iraqi's ... almost every sermon I've seen from him either explicitly or implicitly alludes, negatively, to US foreign policy ... even his 1988 hope speech alludes to the bombing in Japan ... His 1984 trip to Libya is entirely consistent with his 2001 statements in his infamous post 9/11 speech. He views that as the US killing innocents; I view that as a successful foreign policy program that contained Qaddafi's terrorist aspirations at a minimal (aggregate) loss of life. His HIV-conspiracy theory was advanced in multiple different venues ... the publication in the Church bulletin of that Hamas Abu Marzook clap trap(which Obama has likewise disavowed knowledge of) ... Incidentally, that happened on 7/22/07, the date of another controversial sermon that got Kristol in trouble because he had a single source that suggested (likely incorrectly) that Obama had been present that day ... We know that Obama wasn't there for any of the sermons linked to by video (somewhere between 3-5); yet we also know that Obama *was there* for multiple other sermons where Wright was over the top, we just don't know which ones they were. In August, 2005, Wright wrote the following: "In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01. White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just “disappeared” as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring Black concerns" ... link ... We can literally go on and on and on. Wright is not espousing post-racial views. He is mired in the "past" which isn't even the past, according to Obama (the Faulkner quote) ...

THREE In fact both you and Jag in this thread both succumbed to this same distortion. By bringing Ferraro into the discussion in that way, I still hold that there there's an implicit assumption that the two could be equated/compared. Ferraro basically just said what John Kerry also said. The difference was that Ferraro worked for Clinton, Kerry supports Obama; had little to do with racism and wasn't relevant to a discussion on race. Especially when he was creating the charge he wanted to knock down. (either created 8 days before or in his speech ... I still haven't heard anyone who did or does seriously argue that Ferraro harbored deep-seated racial bias)
FOURThe elephant in the room - the concept that I have yet to see addressed by anyone on the political right - an issue that I have raised numerous times in this thread only to be ignored each time (except for post 206 where the notion was simply dismissed) - is that the many of the opinions espoused by Wright in his "outrages" are not as limited to the extreme peripherals of the black community as white America seems or wants to think.

You must have missed my 262:

I think it's important for white America to bear in mind that Wright simply isn't that controversial a figure [to be clear, I meant controversial within the black community]. I don't think Obama was lying when he said that very thing to America last year. He just didn't fully understand how different the rest of America is. Now he does.

And Obama's dead-on correct about the fact that this corruption has been breeding inside America for decades, and it does have at its root a response to evil. And we do need to deal with it as a nation, but whites, in the eyes of many, don't have the moral authority to address the problem. We can argue until we are blue in the face that the US government didn't start AIDS. But until someone from the inside says it, it won't make much difference.


FIVE Your post again: I believe the real reasons Obama didn't leave the church or reject Wright or presumably did not regularly challenge him over the years are that he wasn't all that taken aback by them, that he'd heard it all before much more regularly and openly than most of us white folks at Rotoguru care to consider, and more often and openly than we've heard similar talk from our elders and community leaders.

I really don't understand why the right has so much trouble with this concept. The left might not be comfortable with it, but at least we can put it on the table. You don't think that sketch is just simple satire alone, and nothing more, do you?


I agree, mostly. The qualifier I'd bring here is that Obama *chose* to be viewed as black. He was a young man, searching for an identity, and chose this one. He wasn't raised in the African-american tradition, he doesn't share the slave (unless his ancestors captured them) or Jim Crow experience.

I'd also say that people on the right understand this very well, which is why most that I've talked to over the years have long predicted that the first black President would be a Republican, or a "post-racial" candidacy that distanced himself from the residual pain that exists within much of the black community today. The substantive problem Wright poses is as a threat to this post-racial perception.

SIX Your Post: So here's the question again: how likely it is that one can regularly attend an African American church - especially in Chicagoland - and not occasionally be subjected to controversial opinions along the lines of what we hear from Rev. Wright? They can be less political than Wright, however.

SEVENObama cannot disown Wright just as he can't disown the black community.

This is where we part. Someone with credibility within the black community has to address this corruption. That's what white america wanted to hear. Obama embraced the root perspectives rather than presenting himself as an agent for change.

In retrospect, this should have been expected. When confronted with Wright's post 9/11 screed, Obama said that Wright was being "provacative". He didn't understand until this month just how out of touch such comments were. And that suggests that Obama himself is out of touch.

EIGHTYou criticized Obama for omitting references to MLK in his speech and suggested that this indicates a sympathy toward Wright's opinions on his part. I imagine you are aware that not everything that Rev. King said was as uplifting as I Have A Dream.

"Imagine" is the proper word. Madman 213, with emphasis added: This is what I was talking about when noting that Obama's omission of references to Dr. King was striking. BLT pushes well beyond at least the early King, and TUCC pushes for a strong religion/racism/economic vision. Obama appears to be aligning himself with that portion of the vision.

To expand ... the "early" (admittedly vague) King was responsible for using non-violence to get WHITES to understand how the legislation and actions of WHITES was problematic. This was genius and courageous.

As time marched on, MLK's movement became more political and less attached to some of its more universal and dare we say "transcendental" themes. I don't begrudge that of him; it was simply amazing that someone could arise from the black community with his character in the first place. And obviously we don't know where he would have ultimately taken things.

I suspect that he would have "devolved" (in my view) more toward the Jesse Jackson / Sharpton mold. But just because King might have fully gone that way doesn't mean that it would have been right. The additional (and legitimate) problems facing blacks require different lenses, IMO. I agree with Moynihan 1970 when he said the USA needed a "race time-out". We can delve into King in more detail later.

A crude summary, however, is that whites are looking for another King ... someone who can engender change without causing animosity, someone who appreciates the rich textures of race in American life, from all sides. Obama's speech went in an opposite direction, refusing to argue for a better perspective from either the whites or blacks, instead linking improvement to healthcare and international trade. Not coicidentally, trade itself is a racial issue.
EIGHT MITH: Should I hold my grandparents to the same standards of judgment for remaining faithful to the Catholic Church through their refusal to publicly condemn the particular atrocities of the Holocaust? Should I question their judgment and wonder aloud whether I should view their contributions to their parishes as support for the Church's silence? I don't. Because for them I believe the Church experience meant far more than one or another particular political position of the Vatican. They were there to worship and be a part of the church community. A priest or pastor they disagreed with couldn't change their loyalty to the Church.

Already, however, it is clear that you HAVE appropriately asked that question, and you've weighed the answer. Contextual interpretation is necessary for historical understanding. No one is arguing otherwise. What is at issue with Wright isn't contextualism itself, it is the use of contextualism to *excuse current actions*. If the Catholic church today said that the Holocaust didn't happen because the Jews killed Jesus, would you disown that statement and still be part of the church? I bet not. If they said that 1000 years ago, those statements weigh entirely differently.

NINEMITH: Madman if I remember correctly you are a member of the LDS Church and you are also about the same age as me (35). Assuming that's right and that you inherited your religion from your parents, do you openly question their judgment in sticking with a faith that banned blacks from the priesthood? Do you view the contributions they made to the church prior to the change as an endorsement of that policy?

I'm not a member of the LDS church. I'm a member of the LDS faith tradition. Specifically, I'm a member of the Community of Christ (Wiki ), which is the second largest LDS denomination. And yes, it is because of my family heritage. The CofC is also colloquially referred to as "liberal" Mormons, if that's not an oxymoron.

My church has more blacks than whites, just not American blacks. There's a tradition of overseas outreach which sometimes has led to establishing a branch.

The only prohibition of that ilk I'm aware of in my church's history was against women in the priesthood. That changed in 1984. My view is that humanity has always been an imperfect expression of God, and the best we can ever do is to evolve in the proper direction. In fact, I would argue that we always evolve one direction or the other, and it is better to consciously do so than to drift along and never realize that it is happening to you.

Almost by definition, virtually all LDS denominations will have evolving theology, since almost all believe in continuing revelation (Sorry Boldwin). So from that perspective, I'm glad they have their current theology and am willing to give them good credit for that (although we still part ways on women in the Priesthood, I believe). I don't know the history of their prohibition on race. If my church had such a prohibition, you better bet that I'd be questioning my parents, elders, etc., about why didn't they see what we now see sooner ... you should always do that when you come to higher stages of realization ...

I applied that standard to my church vis a vis women ... I accepted their pre-1984 prohibition under the rubric that societal standards are a constraint to any institution, and an institution that wants to retain viability can be on the "forefront" of society, but there are limits. And it is better to keep those who disagree within the fold and *persuade* them than it is to change by kicking them out and losing all influence.

Unfortunately, this is a lesson my church has learned from experience; it got heavily split after allowing women into the priesthood.

The reason I go into detail here is that if Obama had tried to persuade his own church -- despite the fact that he didn't inherit it from his family -- I could accept it, even applaud his membership. But there's just no evidence, nor any claim on his part, that he found these issues troubling until just the last few weeks. Indeed, they were useful tools toward being "provocative", and he believed that strongly enough to put it into the NYTimes, for goodness sake.

Does he necessarily share every crazy belief of Jeremiah Wright? No. But he's proving that his past isn't one of demonstrated courage at a minimum, and at a maximum, he's suggesting he would put up with radical ideas in his advisors, who he appoints to the EEOC, Justice department, etc. And his speech, nor any statement since, hasn't even tried to address those issues which are quite serious and substantive.

Sorry for length. Responded in kind. ;)
 
504Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 13:00
But there's just no evidence, nor any claim on his part, that he found these issues troubling until just the last few weeks.

I think this is because he might not have been aware of them, Madman. He wasn't in the pew during the September 2001 sermon which has everyone up in arms (although it is certainly not as bad as has been projected).
 
505Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 13:17
PD -- On April 30, 2007, he was asked about that SPECIFIC sermon. His response, which I repeat from 359,

“The violence of 9/11 was inexcusable and without justification,” he said in a recent interview. He was not at Trinity the day Mr. Wright delivered his remarks shortly after the attacks, Mr. Obama said, but “it sounds like he was trying to be provocative.”

Further, as I outlined in the post, there's plenty of philosophy to quibble with in Wright's work outside of that single sermon.
 
506Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 13:27
Well, I guess my point is that either he only found out about it recently, or spoke with his pastor privately. Why would "evidence" exist (or be needed) for a private conversation I dunno.

Also, saying Obama might appoint someone unfit for the Justice Department or other appointed positions (hmmm--where have we seen that before) because Wright was on a volunteer board for the campaign doesn't make a lot of sense either.
 
507Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 13:43
Well, I guess my point is that either he only found out about it recently, or spoke with his pastor privately. Why would "evidence" exist (or be needed) for a private conversation I dunno.

When you go to church, it's not just you and the Pastor. You have family, friends, other members.

If, for example, my church was spreading the rumor that HIV/AIDS was initiated by the government, SOMEONE in my church would KNOW that I disagreed.

And if my pastor had said "God Damn America" in the context of Wright's remarks, I wouldn't be telling the NYTimes that my pastor had just been "provocative". That's not just an "aw shucks, there goes my crazy uncle" sort of thing.

Also, saying Obama might appoint someone unfit for the Justice Department or other appointed positions (hmmm--where have we seen that before) because Wright was on a volunteer board for the campaign doesn't make a lot of sense either.

You miss my point. Obama might appoint someone unfit for the Justice Department because he's got a major blind-spot and his pool of potential allies tend to be more extreme than he is. He's sympathetic to the fringe left; I haven't seen any evidence for a similar sympathy to the center or the right, vis a vis who he trusts or, more importantly for appointments, who he has trusted.
 
508Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 14:08
I think there is a huge difference between not smacking around Rev Wright the man and having a blind spot, Madman.

What you would do if you were in the pew is doubly speculative: Obama wasn't in the pew. And his quotes recently point to him speaking privately with the pastor. You seem to take him to task for not saying his clear points publically in the way you would, as though this invalidates him and calls into question his judgement.

Now you, like me, are married, so you'll understand when I say that this sounds like a typically "wifey" attribute.
 
509Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 14:15
Obama *chose* to be viewed as black. He was a young man, searching for an identity, and chose this one. He wasn't raised in the African-american tradition, he doesn't share the slave (unless his ancestors captured them) or Jim Crow experience. - Madman - bullet point #5 post 503

Seriously, do you think Obama could have *chosen* white? Even though it used to be the "one drop rule" classified a person as a negro, Obama is half black, his pigmentation assures that he will be identified as black, not white, by 99% of the world if pressed for a determination.

Having lived in Hawaii for 5 years, I'm certain Obama was considered
papolo
, which, in my experience, isn't really a slur but definetly a determination. I guarantee you he would not have been characterized as haole.

I don't think not being raised in the African-American tradition is all that relevant in his decision to embrace his black side, any more than a half Hispanic-American raised in Utah, not East Los Angeles, might be sympathetic to those who did grow up in barrios.
 
510Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 14:17
We're beginning to get repetitive here ... Can we at least agree that Obama WAS in the pew on multiple occassions when Wright went over the line?

And just to clarify, I'm interested in hearing what he's done over the years to re-channel the things he *did* know about. The quotes I've seen where he's said he had a private conversation with Wright haven't been persuasive to me (seem contrived or forced for the situation; I simply find them implausible to date).

But the bigger picture remains ... are private conversations how he thinks we should deal with these racial issues? Or are we back to the "give them healthcare" claptrap of his speech?

... Are you implying that I'm becoming Obama's wife? Hmmm. He is a good looking man, but my wife and his wife would likely have problems with that. I doubt we could even get a civil union.
 
511Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 14:25
I don't think not being raised in the African-American tradition is all that relevant in his decision to embrace his black side, any more than a half Hispanic-American raised in Utah, not East Los Angeles, might be sympathetic to those who did grow up in barrios.

Dunno. I know some African blacks and one Asian who some Americans would view as black. I haven't met one who was particularly attracted to the "oppresor/oppressed" dialog of BLT or TUCC ... so yes, as a half first-generation immigrant with many years overseas, I think he chose it.

No, he couldn't have chosen "white". But he didn't have to choose to create an identity understandable through a white/black oppresor/oppressed racial lense, either. In fact, prior to the Wright escapade, many (including myself) thought that he had chosen to do just that.
 
512Boldwin
      ID: 332562616
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 16:55
Who was that horrendous black female member of the Civil Rights Commission under Clinton and going way back? I wonder if she gets a corner office?
 
513J-Bar
      ID: 292552222
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 23:20
Just a thought when President Obama is meeting with all these Middle East leaders will it then also be fashionable and marketable for him and the media to use his middle name (which is taboo at this time)? this could be a 'you heard it here first' moment if only he could win.
 
514Boldwin
      ID: 332562616
      Thu, Mar 27, 2008, 23:34
Let's see, would that be getting along on a first name basis?
 
515Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Fri, Mar 28, 2008, 07:24
It's only taboo to use it when it's an obvious narrow-minded ploy to make him sound like a Muslim. You'll notice the practice has completely fallen out of fashion with most of that set because its easier to demonize him as a radical black Christian right now than as a radical muslim.

But the real folly that made me laugh out loud at post 513 is that Barack is a Middle Eastern name, too. Perhaps you thought it was Scottish?

So lets apply that logic to me; my first name is Joe but I go by my middle name, Patrick since I live in an English speaking country. Yeah, that makes perfact sense.

Really, J-Bar, after post 513 and post 361 in this thread you're probably much better off just leaving the Barack Hussein stuff alone.
 
516biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Fri, Mar 28, 2008, 14:07
You have too much patience for this stuff, MITH.

I assumed the giggly school-girl stuff from the "conservatives" would have been tempered after Madman showed up and presumably shamed them with actual thoughtful analysis and dialogue. Guess I was wrong.
 
517Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Fri, Mar 28, 2008, 15:00
The View ... a preview of Obama on "The View" ... Another instance of Obama claiming that he *did* talk to Wright ... after the controversy erupted, so I still don't know what to make of that.

"I didn't have a research team during the course of 20 years to go pull every sermon he's given and see if there's something offensive that he's said."

Weasling very effectively, since we know the NYTimes and others had shared these exact same bits with him a year ago or more, and we also know that he had direct evidence of "some" of it.
 
518walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Mar 28, 2008, 15:34
PD, please help me understand why Hillary is polling so much higher than Obama in Pennsylvania. I am a bit surprised and disappointed, even though I know she needs many big wins, not just Penn, to catch up to him.

Casey has just endorsed Obama, btw.

I still say, Madman, that the Rev Wright thing is being blown way out of proportion. What is the main concern here?
 
519Perm Dude
      ID: 4222288
      Fri, Mar 28, 2008, 15:51
Rendell, Kanjorski, Murtha, and many others came out for Hillary (Rendell, a very popular governor, has been on her side for months). Casey is big (and an intriging Veep possibility) but I believe Obama only has 3 PA superdelates, while Clinton has 13.

Obama appears to be cutting into the leads, however. Two weeks ago Clinton was polling at about 15-16% and I'm seeing polls now down in the 10-11% range. Just wait until Perm Dude (Obama's Pocono Mountains Team Leader!) gets going! I really believe Obama will close the gap, but blue collar workers are not all that receptive to a message from Obama like "unions need to ensure that their companies make a profit."

You gotta remember as well that Obama has a huge North Carolina lead, and will almost certainly wipe away any Clinton delegate lead she might take away from Pennsylvania.
 
520walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Mar 28, 2008, 16:21
Thanks for that Pennsylvania recap, PD. Helpful.
 
521walk
      ID: 181472714
      Fri, Mar 28, 2008, 16:21
Pew Research via HuffPost: 25% of anti-Obama Dems think he's Muslim
 
522Truthsabitchinnit
      ID: 4828416
      Fri, Mar 28, 2008, 21:21
#521 That's rather telling of the nation as a whole, innit.

As if a muslim could ever run for such a post in teh A-meric-uh.
 
523walk
      ID: 182532719
      Fri, Mar 28, 2008, 21:49
I hearya, truth-bitch, I hearya. Fcucked up country right now...talking about it a Euro friend tonight...xeno's in great #s.
 
524Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Fri, Mar 28, 2008, 22:21
walk 518 -- There are two separate tracks I'd like to summarize.

First, is Obama a born and true blue liberal in a conciliatory rhetoric? When he claims that he joined a church in part because he heard Wright preach that "white folks' greed runs a world in need" ... you gotta wonder about what he truly believes.

When he hears quotes from Wright's post 9/11 sermon and excuses him as simply "being provocative" ... you gotta wonder.

When he's asked directly about hypocrisy ... how can you treat Wright contextually and not Imus, he gives 5 minutes of blather on "The View" ... you gotta wonder.

After explicitly not disowning Wright because he needed to be interpreted contextually the man then proceeds to say that he WOULD have disowned him if he hadn't retired and if he hadn't ALSO retired ... you gotta wonder.

Liberals have to be worried that this specific incident will scar him with independents and Republicans, because it's may be the issue that will reveal him to be associated with a strand of unattractive, almost America-baiting, liberalism. And if he survives to Jan. 20, his inept responses have to make Dems wondering whether he's another sweet talking Patrick catastrophe waiting to happen. His various stories and responses to the initial controversy has been an eye-opener.

(note: I am explicitly and intentionally giving him the benefit of the doubt w/r/t his View comments ... many others such as Mickey Kaus heard Obama's comments to be a statement that Wright has actually apologized to Obama).

Dunno. But his speech has me salivating. I think an Obama candidate is good for McCain, and I think an Obama Presidency could be very good for the conservative movement ... assuming the Dem Congress doesn't do too much damage in 2009-2010; given the mess in Iraq, I suspect they'll be too pre-occuppied to do much.
 
525Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sat, Mar 29, 2008, 00:11
Condi Rice hails Obama race speech as"important" for US.

As if her opinion about being black is worth more than Ann Coulter's. The nerve!!
 
526Boldwin
      ID: 332562616
      Sat, Mar 29, 2008, 04:01
Tt's ok to be racist against them if they are conservative, huh PV?
 
527Boldwin
      ID: 332562616
      Sat, Mar 29, 2008, 04:02
Are whites even allowed to play the 'your not black enuff' card?
 
528sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Sat, Mar 29, 2008, 10:03
The real question is; Does that card have any legit place even being in the deck?
 
529Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sat, Mar 29, 2008, 13:47
Tt's ok to be racist against them if they are conservative, huh PV?

Sometimes these short, non-descript quips are impossible to respond to. OK for who to be racists? Who is "them?"

You declare Coulter's column in #481 as devastating, and I agree, only I find it devastating for its intellectual dishonesty.

For instance:

And now, when B. Hussein Obama is caught in a 20-year relationship with a raving racist, his defenders scream that everybody is a racist wack-job.

On top of appealing to the lowest common denominator with the raving racist description, she fails to identify his defenders who are screaming that everybody(everybody?)is a racist wack-job. She does use Chris Matthews(that would be defender - singular) as an example:

In the Obama speech on race Chris Matthews deemed "worthy of Abraham Lincoln," B. Hussein Obama defended Wright's anti-American statements, saying:

"For the men and women of Rev. Wright's generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years. That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends. But it does find voice in the barbershop or around the kitchen table."

So in the speech the media are telling us is on a par with the Gettysburg Address, B. Hussein Obama casually informed us that even blacks who seem to like white people actually hate our guts.


Chris Matthews is the media? Blacks of Rev. Wright's generation, with memories of humiliation, doubt and fear(not hatred) become blacks(all of them, since no generational determination was made)who hate our(white peoples') guts? And what evidence has she presented that Wright's statements are anti-American? I submit that Ann Coulter is the one doing the gut-hating and expressing Anti-American sentiment.

Condi Rice said yesterday:

"There is a paradox for this country and a contradiction of this country and we still haven't resolved it"

How much different is this statement than Obama's concerning memories of humiliation, fear and doubt that have not gone away. Isn't that the paradox? Isn't part of the unresolved contradiction that Ann Coulter can identify Rev. Wright as a racist loon, raving racist, wanton anti-semite, Jew-baiting, rage against the United States whose world wasn't segregated while presenting herself as a model of pro-American ideals?

Finally, Coulter's deception completes itself when she claims that:

Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan, whom Rev. Wright joined on a visit to Moammar Gadhafi in Libya in 1984

without giving the

entire story.

he[Wright] traveled to Libya and Syria on a peace mission along with an ecumenical body of ministers. Chaired by Rev. M. William Howard and led on the ground by Rev. Jesse Jackson who brought about a dozen other ministers including Minister Louis Farrakhan, the trip resulted in the freeing of United States Navy pilot Lt. Robert Goodman, who was captured after his fighter jet had been shot down over Lebanon.[34] At a January 4, 1984 White House ceremony welcoming Lt. Goodman home, U.S. President Ronald Reagan stated, "Reverend Jackson's mission was a personal mission of mercy, and he has earned our gratitude and our admiration."[35] [36] Wright has stated that his participation in the trip implied no endorsement of either Louis Farrakhan’s views or Gaddafi’s.[18]

Wow, did I miss the part where Coulter mentioned that Reagan had commended this trip? It sounded to me like Wright and Farrakhan went(just the two of them) to Libya for the sole purpose of schmoozing with Gadhafi and hating Israel. Maybe Ann's been listening to
Rush Limbaugh

They chose this church because of the charismatic pastor's beliefs. If they were repulsed by his racism or his anti-Semitism or his trip to Libya with Calypso Louie, or the award given to Calypso Louie by Pastor Wright, they have never showed it. They never said a word at the time. They never said, "Oh, Pastor Wright, we're really, really unhappy here that you're heading off to Libya." No, didn't say a word about that.

No, Rush didn't say a word about Reagan expressing admiration and gratitude concerning the trip. Neither did Ann. And neither did Baldwin, who unquestioningly drinks their kool-aid:

We shouldn't have to just assume, absent any reassurance, that Obama differs with Wright on Farakhan, Moammar Gadhafi, the state of Isreal

Obama has clearly stated where he differs with Wright on Farrakhan and Israel. No one has given any information on Wright's views about Gadhafi, but Reagan's commendation of the Libya trip apparently didn't meet the standard of reassurance.
Coulter/Limbaugh/Baldwin conservatives will never be assured(much less reassured) that Obama is his own man, with his own views, based on his own unique experience.

It's refreshing to know that conservatives like Rice(and Madman and Steve Houpt to a degree)understand that there is room for reasoned debate on this subject, as opposed to emotionally-driven rhetoric based on ignorance, innuendo, Arbitron ratings and book sales.
 
530Boldwin
      ID: 422472910
      Sat, Mar 29, 2008, 14:23
Sarge

Hey, I've already conceded the WH to him so yes, by all means let's hope...

...but just in case he didn't violently disagree with his spiritual advisor for 20 years, what percent of your income will you be happy to pay in reparations?

 
531Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Sat, Mar 29, 2008, 15:44
PV 525 -- that headline is misleading. Here's what she actually said ...

QUESTION: (Inaudible) Barack (inaudible) speech about race -- did you listen to it?

SECRETARY RICE: I did and, you know, I think it was important that he gave it for a whole host of reasons. But look, I'm not going to talk about the politics. What I'm talking about is how -- you asked me about Dr. King and race in America. And I'm telling you that there is a paradox for this country and a contradiction of this country and we still haven't resolved it. But what I would like understood as a black American is that black Americans loved and had faith in this country even when this country didn't love and have faith in them, and that's our legacy.

My grandmother and my great-grandmother, and my father, who endured terrible humiliations growing up -- and my father in Baton Rouge, Louisiana; and my mother's family in Birmingham, Alabama-- still loved this country. And I've often spoken of the Civil Rights Movement as the second founding of America, because finally we started to overcome this birth defect. But if anybody believes that black Americans love this country any less than white Americans do, they ought to go and talk to people who live under very tough circumstances, sometimes doing menial labor and doing tough jobs, and really all they want is the American dream. All they're focused on is is their kid going to be well educated enough to go to college and have a better life than they had. And one of the things that attracted me to George W. Bush, one of the primary things, it was not actually foreign policy, it was No Child Left Behind. Because when he talked about the soft bigotry of low expectations, I know what that feels like.

And so to my mind, where our understanding of and conversation of race has got to go. And I mean now, race. Black Americans aren't immigrants. We may call ourselves African Americans, but we're not immigrants. We don't mimic the immigrant story. Where this conversation has got to go is that black Americans and white Americans founded this country together and I think we've always wanted the same thing. And it's been now a very hard and long struggle to begin to get to the place that we can all pursue the same thing.


Notice that she said it was important that Obama gave it, but then explicitly moved away from discussing politics. This suggests that you simply don't know the reasons why she thought it was important ... it may have been important for his candidacy, for the Democratic party, etc. And, even if important, that doesn't mean she agrees.

For example, she shifted almost immediately to her family's story, which presents a striking counter-argument to Obama's contextual defense of Wright, since her ancestry didn't buy into the oppressor/oppressed mindset, apparently. Talking about their love of the US and faith was an incredibly deft but powerful Obama body-slam.

She also undercuts Obama's story about white racism being the immigrant story, pushing instead for a picture where whites and blacks, together, look at themselves as founders of the country. Dramatically different philosophy than Obama's, whether you agree with her or not. I don't read an intellectual endorsement here; if anything, she's arguing with him.
 
532Perm Dude
      ID: 02562915
      Sat, Mar 29, 2008, 18:12
No, she's engaging the debate. Exactly what Obama seeks. He is specifically not saying people should agree with him, but is calling for a deeper understanding and conversation.

Though Rice's comments, before she wanted to change the subject late in the interview, is pretty close to what Obama was saying and certainly what the Washington Times concentrated on in their story about their interview.
 
533Steve Biz
      ID: 542302917
      Sat, Mar 29, 2008, 20:29
Haven't been much a part of this conversation (and don't think I will be, if Ann Coulter is taken seriously here) but would like to say that as a young(ish) adult it is nice to--for the first time in my life--hear a "politician" talk about race-issues in the present tense and really tell it like it is. I'm hoping upon hope that B. Hussein Obama is our next President and dream of what that will mean to this country and this world. Just MHO. Hope everyone is having a nice Saturday evening.
 
534Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sat, Mar 29, 2008, 21:47
Madman,
I think when you call someone's speech "important...for a whole host of reasons," it's not a stretch to say that you're hailing the speech, even if not fully in agreement.

.. her family's story, which presents a striking counter-argument to Obama's contextual defense of Wright, since her ancestry didn't buy into the oppressor/oppressed mindset, apparently. Talking about their love of the US and faith was an incredibly deft but powerful Obama body-slam.

How is My grandmother and my great-grandmother, and my father, who endured terrible humiliations growing up -- and my father in Baton Rouge, Louisiana; and my mother's family in Birmingham, Alabama- not buying into the oppressor/oppressed mindset?

Are you saying that enduring terrible humiliations doesn't involve an opressor/opressed? It's hard for me to belive Rice feels that way, given that:

Violence was turning her hometown into “Bombingham” as Alabama’s governor George Wallace fought a federal court order to integrate the city’s schools. The Ku Klux Klan bombed the homes of blacks who were beginning to move into white neighbourhoods. Among the targets was the home of Arthur Shores, a veteran civil rights lawyer and friend of the Rices. Condi and her parents took food and clothes over to his family.

With the bombings came marauding groups of armed white vigilantes called “nightriders” who drove through black neighbourhoods shooting and starting fires. John Rice and his neighbours guarded the streets at night with shotguns.

The memory of her father out on patrol lies behind Rice’s opposition to gun control today. Had those guns been registered, she argues, Bull Connor would have had a legal right to take them away, thereby removing one of the black community’s only means of defence. “I have a sort of pure second amendment view of the right to bear arms,” she said in 2001.

For black people in Birmingham, especially children, 1963 was a terrifying year. “Those terrible events burned into my consciousness,” said Rice. “I missed many days at my segregated school because of the frequent bomb threats. Some solace to me was the piano, and what a world of joy it brought me.”


Unlike Obama, Condi Rice actually lived through some of the most egregious examples of the oppressor/oppressed environment this nation has seen, at least in my lifetime(I'm a couple years older than Condi). So, when she said yesterday.

And I'm telling you that there is a paradox for this country and a contradiction of this country and we still haven't resolved it. But what I would like understood as a black American is that black Americans loved and had faith in this country even when this country didn't love and have faith in them, and that's our legacy.

the context is clear, and it jibes with much of what Obama said in his speech. Obama and Rice are both brilliant and successful, but their divergence, politically, is not so hard to explain, given the history.

Condi Rice is the product of a tight knit black family. From the above link:

This was the unwritten yet firm law of Titusville families: to raise children who were “twice as good” as white ones to gain an equal footing and “three times as good” to surpass them when they left the secure enclave of Titusville.

“It wasn’t as if someone said, ‘You have to be twice as good’, and ‘Isn’t that a pity’ or ‘Isn’t that wrong’,” Rice said. “It was just, ‘You have to be twice as good’.

“My parents were very strategic. I was going to be so well prepared, and I was going to do all of these things that were revered in white society so well, that I would be armoured somehow from racism. I would be able to confront white society on its own terms.”


Compare that to Obama, whose birth father basically abandoned him, for reasons not entirely clear his mother and step-father sent him away at age 10 or 11 to be raised by his white grandparents in Hawaii, a situation of questionable discipline and guidance, although Punahou is a prestigious and rather elite private school. It's doubtful Obama had much of a clue about race until he landed in Chicago in his mid-20s, as opposed to Rice, enrolled at the University of Denver, where her father both served as an assistant dean and taught a class called "The Black Experience in America." Dean John Rice opposed institutional racism, government oppression, and the Vietnam War.

Interestingly, just as Obama's step-father, a Muslim, had sent him to a Catholic school when they moved to Indonesia, Condi Rice's father, a Presbyterian minister, sent Condi to a Catholic school(St. Mary's) when they moved to Denver.

But the overriding factor is that Condi had discipline, guidance and stability where Obama had identity issues, cultural confusion and historical racial questions. Yet, Obama has overcome these issues, just as Condi has overcome growing up in the segregated Jim Crow South. She obviously respects his perspective, or she wouldn't have deemed them "important."

What's really important, something Madman has referred to prior to this Wright distraction, is how Obama's sympathies translate into future entitlement programs, government income distribution, and a generally larger role of the federal government, especially in relation to "curing" poverty. My libertarian leanings cringe at some of Obama's stated positions, almost as much as when I read Ann Coulter call someone else a loon or a radical.













 
535Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Sat, Mar 29, 2008, 22:52
PV 534-- I don't think it is just his "sympathies" that translate into future entitlement programs ... it's his religion or, more specifically, his chosen congregation, as I've documented above.

Has he given an official response yet to how he would have voted on 1996 welfare reform? Last I knew, he punted, saying that it isn't relevant to look at dead issues from years ago (paraphrasing, obviously).

Back on the "real Obama" ... Wehner goes into some detail, documenting Obama's various positions on the war.
 
536Seattle Zen
      ID: 29241823
      Sat, Mar 29, 2008, 22:56
Steve Biz

Haven't been much a part of this conversation (and don't think I will be, if Ann Coulter is taken seriously here)

Glad that you decided to speak up, and not just because you are a young Obama supporter. Don't worry, Ann really isn't taken seriously.

I think you are in the majority, most people were impressed with Obama's speech. To the average voter, he showed some real poise answering his critics regarding Rev. Wright. Very few people bother to parse his words as much as some here in and in the media, and even fewer listen to people parsing his words. They were inspiring.

Hope everyone is having a nice Saturday evening.

Well, you might be too nice ;)
 
537Perm Dude
      ID: 420241913
      Sun, Mar 30, 2008, 01:08
Re Wehner's piece that Madman points out in #535:

al Qaeda is already in Iraq. That is why its forces there are called “al Qaeda in Iraq”

Sounds like Wehner has some "corkscrew" logic himself (and decided to borrow some words from John McCain to do so). AQI is the new name of a group which already was in Iraq. Changing their name didn't actually make them al Qaeda. In any case, the AQI (which later did try to establish some ties with Osama bin Laden after changing their name) has severely marginalized itself in recent months and these days is fighting its fellow Sunni "allies" as much as anyone else.

More important, however, is Wehner's putting this out as a rebuttal to Obama's "ignorance and disingenuousness" for saying as Commander in Chief he reserves the right to act in ways he sees fit if al Qaeda is forming a base in Iraq. Wehner mistates what Obama said in the debate. Obama never said al Qaeda is not now in Iraq. He was speaking in the future tense. And his earlier statement, "[t]here was no such thing as Al Qaeda in Iraq until [President] George Bush and John McCain decided to invade Iraq" makes this clear.
 
538Boldwin
      ID: 422472910
      Sun, Mar 30, 2008, 02:08
Actually I find it rather encouraging that he spent formative years in Hawaii. That is a great place for getting along with/looking past racial differnces. Just my impression of the place.
 
539Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sun, Mar 30, 2008, 15:56
Peter Wehner is a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington, D.C. He served in the Bush White House as director of the office of strategic initiatives.

Strategic initiatives? A group so dysfunctional that it actually adopted Strategery as an in-house name based on an SNL satire. Beyond that, Wehner's credentials include speechwriting for neocon cheerleader William Kristol and casino-addicted Bill Bennett.

Given his background, it's little suprise that he would embarrass himself with this "analysis" of Barack Obama's shifting Iraq positions, not only for its distortions and ommissions, but its utter failure to admit that the administration's strategic initiatives contained so many shifts and missteps that a one-term United States Senator who arrived in Washington in 2005 with no foreign-policy experience, after an uneventful eight-year stint in the Illinois state senate would be a marked improvement over the disastrous policies of the past five years.

Beginning in 2004, I began posting the articles by Peter Galbraith concerning the creation of three autonomous states in Iraq based on religious, cultural and ethnic identities. Here's an interview from
November 2005 that I posted in this forum at the time of its release, just prior to the Iraqi elections. As usual, Galbraith was on target:

Reason: What do you think will happen next in Iraq, once the upcoming December elections take place on the basis of the new constitution?

Peter Galbraith: The results of the December elections are likely to resemble the January elections. The peoples of Iraq will vote their ethnic or confessional identity, and few will vote as Iraqis. The Kurds will vote once again almost unanimously for the Kurdistan list and the Shiites will vote for the religious parties. Last January, the Sunni Arabs expressed their identity by not voting, which many now realize was a mistake. They will now vote for Sunni parties, and especially those linked to the old Sunni-dominated regime.

At the same time, former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi and Ahmad Chalabi will get votes from secular Arabs, and perhaps some religious Shiites disappointed with the weak performance of the current government. Allawi, Chalabi, and the Communists have the only parties that are Iraqi—in the sense of crossing the Sunni-Shiite divide—and, even so, they don't have any support in Kurdistan.

Reason: As someone who has argued in favor of allowing Iraq's three main groups—Arab Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds—to go their separate ways in a newly structured state, do you feel the new constitution will allow this to happen peacefully, or will it lead to a violent breakdown, perhaps in the manner of Bosnia?

Galbraith: If Iraq breaks up, it will not be because of the new constitution, which merely acknowledges a breakup that has already taken place, and provides a structure for Iraq's peoples to coexist. I think the constitution can help avoid a Bosnia-type war because it resolves many of the issues—control of oil, the future of Kirkuk, power at the center—that could trigger a civil war. Iraq's peoples do not share common values, or even a desire to be in the same state. This constitution allows the Kurds to be secular and Western oriented, and the Shiites to have a pro-Iranian Islamic regime in the south. This is the only way to reconcile such disparate agendas within a single democratic state. But, if Iraq does break up, the constitution's loose federalism could make the process relatively painless.


Despite being an expert on Iraq, having spent many years there, and having experience as part of the successful partition of Yugoslavia into Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian and Bosnian entities(pre-Kosovo), the Bush administration ignored his sage council.

On May 1st, 2006, Joe Biden and Leslie Gelb brought to public attention a proposal based on Galbraith's expertise in the
NY Times.

The White House response later that day at the daily press briefing:

Q Scott, Senator Biden has got an op/ed out and he's going to make some remarks in Philadelphia in a short time from now, advocating the possible partitionment of Iraq -- Sunni, Shia and Kurd. What is the administration's view of that suggestion now in terms of how it impacts the process, and in general?

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, a couple things. First of all, it's a question that really ought to be directed to the Iraqi leaders. They are the ones to make the decisions about the future of Iraq. The United States remains firmly committed to the vision for the future of Iraq that was outlined in the United Nations Security Council resolution 1546, which called for a federal, democratic, pluralist and unified Iraq in which there is full respect for political and human rights. And the constitution that the Iraqi people adopted gives Iraqis the flexibility to work out how to divide authority between the central government, provincial governments, and regional governments. The newly established unity government will give Iraqis an opportunity to really address those issues in a way that is acceptable to all of Iraq's communities.

We will continue to work with them as they move forward on that, but a partitioned government with regional security forces and a weak central government is something that no Iraqi leader has proposed, and that the Iraqi people have not supported.
link

This White House response fails to consider that the Iraqi Constitution provides for autonomy, and that on Jan 31, 2005, 98% of Kurds voted in favor of a resolution on Kurdish independence.

After soliciting widespread bi-partisan support, with Kansas Republican Sam Brownback as co-sponsor, the Senate passed a non-binding resolution 75-23, based on these principles. The two missing votes, ironically, were McCain and Obama.

The White House, however, belittled the move as essentially comporting with its own view, a response Republicans on Capitol Hill greeted with derision.

The rest of this post would be a redundancy of
link #535 in this thread href="http://rotoguru1.com/cgi-bin/read.pl?board=pol&thread=3020#1206765167" target="_blank">#474 in this thread.

Suffice it to say that Wehner decries Obama's shifting positions, while being apologetic to the administration's shifting positions as evidenced by denouncing Biden's proposal when it first appeared on May 1, 2006, then saying it essentially comported with its own view after passing the Senate with a huge bi-partisan three quarter majority.

Obama has more foreign policy saavy at this point than Bush did in 2000. While some think Bush is just a poor speaker, I'm one who thinks he's not really very bright. Consequently, the foreign policy was driven by the neocon PNAC crowd - Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith and Libby, while marginalizing the more moderate voice of Powell, as evidenced in #35 here.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but this country needs less of Wehner, a proven disaster as a director of strategic intiative(OK, he was mostly involved with the privatization of Social Security failure and the faith-based initiative - not Iraq) and more of an honest discussion about Iraq, something neither the administration nor John McCain have provided.
 
540steve houpt
      ID: 451161019
      Sun, Mar 30, 2008, 18:48
Just some wondering thoughts that come to mind when I here distinctions between 'those who attacked us on 9/11' and those who did not.

Question - a popular talking point I hear - go back strong in Afghanistan and get the Al Qaeda that attacked us on 9/11.

Don't we have most of the ones who were responsible for 9/11 EXCEPT U.B.L. [or O.B.L. as some here like]. Actually, the hijackers died. To pull it off, those in the know had to be very limited. So is the democrat party policy, only go after someone involved in carrying out 9/11? That's probably not many people.

OK, Al Qaeda in Iraq was not involved in 9/11, but I'd guess most of Al Qaeda that is in Afghanistan now or hiding in Pakistan were not 'involved' in 9/11 either. Should we forget them too. Why go after them?

What's the difference? Do you think the Al Qaeda in Iraq would have decided to humanitarians if we were not in Iraq? Do you think they would love us? Are some of you of the mindset that we made more Al Qaeda by freeing Iraq? And if so, so what, it's a long fight.

==============

I could see making that argument in the 60's. The KKK was almost gone until Ike sent troops into Arkansas and Congress, JFK, LBJ and respublicans in Congress pushed thru that civil rights legislation. Look at all the violence that started.

Were we making KKK members in the 50's? Or were most of those people racists long before that? I think we know the answer to that. We struggled thru the violence because it was the right thing to do.

I already know one of the responses. That was in our country, who cares about the people in Iraq. Saddam was not bothering anybody. We could have flown the no-fly zones forever and hoped he did not have any weapons he would distribute or make with that oil for food money and he'd keep his killing to a 'minimum'.

But just remember that when Rwanda comes up. Or other oppressed people.
 
541walk
      ID: 2530286
      Sun, Mar 30, 2008, 20:18
My friend went to the same school as Obama (Bary) in Hawaii. She said he was nice, unassuming, and played a ton of basketball.
 
542J-Bar
      ID: 292552222
      Sun, Mar 30, 2008, 22:08
pv what makes you feel that the split of iraq would lead to immediate and long-lasting harmony when the the palestinian and israel issues aren't resolved and the only thing keeping that from happening are agreement about land and ideology without the third caveat of oil revenue. social security privatization only failed because of the fear mongering that the dems did to prevent something that could have changed the course and dialogue of the ss debate.
 
543Perm Dude
      ID: 02562915
      Sun, Mar 30, 2008, 23:32
#540: Democrats aren't exactly saying that. Most of them are saying that going after Osama bin Laden should continue to be a goal. The Administration set out to find him, made it a stated goal, and now no longer seems to care.

Getting the head of al Qaeda should be a goal no matter how many members they have, since they work not through volume but through terror, and the continued freedom of Osama merely gives courage to those who would do us harm, giving the terrorists the argument that they can harm the US and the US is too stupid to get them back.

Capture Osama bin Laden, and AQI would never have changed their name.
 
544Perm Dude
      ID: 02562915
      Sun, Mar 30, 2008, 23:57
BTW, I'm going to see Obama speak on Tuesday. I don't think I'll get a chance to meet him, but will keep you posted.
 
545Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Mon, Mar 31, 2008, 00:00
pv what makes you feel that the split of iraq would lead to immediate and long-lasting harmony when the the palestinian and israel issues aren't resolved

I missed the part where I suggested a UN mandate to establish a homeland for mostly European Jews carved out of Iraqi provinces.
 
546Seattle Zen
      ID: 29241823
      Mon, Mar 31, 2008, 00:08
social security privatization only failed because of the fear mongering

No, Social Security privatization failed because it is a STUPID fu*kin' idea.
 
547Boldwin
      ID: 422472910
      Mon, Mar 31, 2008, 01:15
SZ

Unfortunately we will all get the inferior ssocial insecurity you deserrve for foisting it upon us.

Would you please just move to Cuba?
 
548Boldwin
      ID: 422472910
      Mon, Mar 31, 2008, 01:44
Are you are a part of the cure or are you a part of the disease?
 
549Wilmer McLean
      ID: 82553023
      Mon, Mar 31, 2008, 02:08
"We are bogged down in a war that John McCain now suggests might go on for another 100 years."

"Hillary Clinton believed NAFTA was a 'boon' to our economy."

"As has been noted by many observers, including Bill Clinton's former secretary of labor, my plan does more than anybody to reduce costs."

Americans "have never paid more for gas at the pump."

"She said, you know, 'I voted for it, but I hoped it wouldn't pass.' That was a quote on live TV."

"I know that Hillary on occasion has said — just last year said this (NAFTA) was a boon to the economy."

"Gas prices have never been higher, and Exxon Mobil's profits have never been higher."

"If we went back to the obesity rates that existed in 1980, that would save the Medicare system a trillion dollars."

"John wasn’t this raging populist four years ago" when he ran for president.

"Right now, an employer has more of a chance of getting hit by lightning than be prosecuted for hiring an undocumented worker. That has to change."

If African-Americans vote their percentage of the population in 2008, “Mississippi is suddenly a Democratic state.”

The above quotes from Barak Obama have been designated FALSE by Politifact.com.

-------------------------------------------------

On the attack side of the truth or not site of Politifacts, here's an Obama stinger:

"He (Obama) chairs the subcommittee on Europe. ... He's held not one substantive hearing to do oversight." - Hillary CLinton

Dormant while Obama campaigns

In one of the more pointed barbs in a Feb. 26, 2008, debate, Sen. Hillary Clinton charged that Sen. Barack Obama has been so busy running for president that he hasn’t done much of anything as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Affairs.

“I also have heard Senator Obama refer continually to Afghanistan, and he references being on the Foreign Relations Committee,” Clinton said. “He chairs the Subcommittee on Europe. It has jurisdiction over NATO. NATO is critical to our mission in Afghanistan. He’s held not one substantive hearing to do oversight, to figure out what we can do to actually have a stronger presence with NATO in Afghanistan."

Obama responded: “Well, first of all, I became chairman of this committee at the beginning of this campaign, at the beginning of 2007. So it is true that we haven’t had oversight hearings on Afghanistan.”

Although Obama acknowledges the point, we sought to confirm what the subcommittee has been doing.

Congressional records show, and spokesmen for several subcommittee members confirm, the subcommittee has not held any policy hearings since Obama was appointed chair in early 2007. The subcommittee’s jurisdiction includes “all matters, policies and problems concerning the continent of Europe, including the European member states of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.”

The chair sets the agenda for a subcommittee and Obama could have asked to hold a hearing on NATO and its role in Afghanistan.

But Clinton’s claim, while technically true, is unfair, said Andrew J. Fischer, a spokesman for Republican Sen. Richard Lugar. Lugar now serves as a minority member of the Foreign Relations Committee, but he was the chair, from 2003 to 2006, when Republicans controlled the Senate. He is the ranking Republican on the committee.

Fischer, who is a minority staff member of the Foreign Relations Committee, said something as major as NATO’s role in Afghanistan would typically be held before the full Foreign Relations Committee, rather than Obama’s European subcommittee.

In fact, the Foreign Relations Committee held a hearing on Afghanistan on Jan. 31, 2008, and NATO was a part of the discussion. Obama attended a Democratic debate in California that day. Clinton is not on the committee.

The Clinton campaign put out a statement reiterating Clinton’s comments to reinforce the theme that Obama is more about talk than action.

“Given the opportunity to take the reins of leadership and shape two critical areas of U.S. foreign policy — Afghanistan and our alliances in Europe — Senator Obama has done next to nothing,” the statement said.

Obama’s campaign did not respond to a request for comment.

So let’s look at Clinton’s statement:

“He chairs the subcommittee on Europe.” Yep.

“It has jurisdiction over NATO.” Yep.

“NATO is critical to our mission in Afghanistan. He’s held not one substantive hearing to do oversight, to figure out what we can do to actually have a stronger presence with NATO in Afghanistan.” Yep.

Some may argue that the issue of NATO’s role in Afghanistan typically and more appropriately would come before the full Foreign Relations Committee. But Clinton is right when she says Obama’s subcommittee has been largely dormant while Obama has campaigned for president. We rate her comment True.

 
550Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Mon, Mar 31, 2008, 08:37
Bob Dole should be commended for resigning his Senate seat while campaigning for president in 1996, since running for President is a full time endeavor.

I suppose that's why so many former governors have been successful candidates:
Carter
Reagan
Clinton
GW Bush
 
551Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Mon, Mar 31, 2008, 10:58
Who's the real Obama? The one from 1996, or the one today ... some of his supporters from 1996 can't decide ... link

And the questionnaires play into storylines pushed by both Republicans and Clinton suggesting Obama has altered his views to appeal to differing audiences.

That suggestion is galling to many members of IVI-IPO, some of whom have relationships with Obama that date back nearly 15 years. The group had endorsed Obama in every race he’d run — including his failed long-shot 2000 primary challenge to U.S. Rep. Bobby Rush (D-Ill.) — until now.

The group’s 37-member board of directors, meeting last year soon after Obama distanced himself from the first questionnaire, stalemated in its vote over an endorsement in the Democratic presidential primary. Forty percent supported Obama, 40 percent sided with Clinton and 20 percent voted for other candidates or not to endorse.

“One big issue was: Does he or does he not believe the stuff he told us in 1996?” said Aviva Patt, who has been involved with the IVI-IPO since 1990 and is now the group’s treasurer. She volunteered for Obama’s 2004 Senate campaign, but voted to endorse the since-aborted presidential campaign of Rep. Dennis J. Kucinich (D-Ohio) and professed disappointment over Obama’s retreat from ownership of the questionnaire.

“I always believed those to be his views,” she said, adding some members of the board argued that Obama’s 1996 answers were “what he really believes in, and he’s tailoring it now to make himself more palatable as a nationwide candidate.”


Also at issue is whether there's a pattern with Obama to sluff off any inconvenient details onto errors or mistakes on the part of his staff.
 
552Perm Dude
      ID: 02562915
      Mon, Mar 31, 2008, 11:19
And if he changed his views in ten years he's flip-flopping, eh?

Sounds like his views evolved, and neither you nor Ms Patt are willing to allow him to do so for political reasons.
 
553Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Mon, Mar 31, 2008, 12:25
PD -- the question is which is the real Obama. I'm cool with him changing his mind, like he's done a couple of times on the Iraq war. The key is to know exactly where he is now, and why he's changed his mind.

Can we safely assume that what he says today is the real Obama, and not what he said then? Has he disavowed the positions he took then, or has he just vaguely suggested that his staffer filled out the survey ... It's also interesting to me that even some of his biggest supporters who knew him very well aren't sure what to make of him now.
 
554Perm Dude
      ID: 02562915
      Mon, Mar 31, 2008, 13:48
I don't see any reason to think that what anyone says today isn't what they believe today. A change in opinion (particularly something from ten years ago) isn't a sign of a currently-confused mind, it is a sign that people change their minds as more facts are known. I rather like the idea of a flexible executive. One of the reasons we're in such deep straights right now is that we have an executive who cannot admit a mistake.

As for this particular Chicago group, the whole thing smacks of hearsay. Ms Pitt, who isn't supporting Obama, states that she thinks he hasn't changed his mind really and that some unnamed (and unquoted) members of the group are slamming Obama themselves. Sloppy journalism, at best.
 
555Madman
      ID: 230542010
      Mon, Mar 31, 2008, 17:01
Not to steer this thread off track, but when you say "One of the reasons we're in such deep straights right now is that we have an executive who cannot admit a mistake." do bear in mind that this executive admits it made a major mistake vis a vis Iraq tactics from 2004-2006. Demonstrating flexibility with the major foreign policy *issue* of our time would ordinarily warrant notice. Incidentally, those were tactics that Obama supported; he appears to have withdrawn that support sometime during 2006-2007. (and note: I'm not necessarily endorsing the revised "open source" tactics ... they haven't been sufficiently vetted from what I can see).

But onto your Obama point, I'd be thrilled if he changed his mind about those things (in his 1996 campaign). If he changed his mind, he could tell us why. My concern, however, is that he isn't claiming that he changed his mind, since he's not saying he did; that's something you are inferring.
 
556Perm Dude
      ID: 72233112
      Mon, Mar 31, 2008, 17:11
Well, he's not saying anything, of course. But I think it is pretty clear he did change his mind or at least moderate his stands enough to distance himself from his previous comments.

As for Iraq, most of the quotes I've seen has him criticizing strategy--this wasn't a change in his support for being there. Obama pretty clearly was (and is) in the "I-don't-want-us-there-but-as-long-as-we-are-we-might-as -well-do-it-right" group.

pd
 
557Boldwin
      ID: 472443119
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 04:58
I'm not gonna concede any of the points made so far about Obama red flags but I'll grant on one level that every politician is gonna have questionable influences/associates and every politician has either flip-flopped or can be made to appear to be a flip-flopper.

What I really don't get is how someone so far to the left has gotten away this far as someone more likely to unite most of the spectrum. How is he more likely than a DLC Dem like Hillary? Well granted on the surface she is far more polarizing but substantively isn't she more likely to compromise and give a little? Where has he offered anything real that those from the Reagan Dems all the way to the rock-ribbed conservatives can appreciate besides [deceptively] inclusive rhetoric? I say deceptively because from his voting record to his philisophical/religious grounding he doesn't seem to have a leg to stand on in the inclusiveness category.
 
558walk
      ID: 181472714
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 13:22
Good points, Boldwin. Folks like me think this lefty Obama is more likely to unite cos of his messages. He does not campaign in a harsh manner. He does indicate things he feels the republicans have done wrong, but I think he has elevated the discourse to a much higher level, and a classier level, than the previous two elections (and compared to Hillary). McCain is also pretty good at this.
 
559Boxman
      ID: 337352111
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 13:26
Folks like me think this lefty Obama is more likely to unite cos of his messages.

And there's the problem. He'll talk one way and legislate another and then people will turn on The Great Leader because he's using the trojan horse of unity to usher in leftist policies. You don't think that'll piss some people off?
 
560biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 13:31
Hey Box - It would be helpful for me if you specifically delineated your fears. What lefty policies do you fear that Obama will "legislate" (leaving aside for the moment that he will no longer be a legislator)?
 
561Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 13:31
You don't think that'll piss some people off?

Those people will be pissed off no matter what he does. See 1992-2000.
 
562walk
      ID: 181472714
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 13:54
Hi Boxman. First, I don't think Obama will legislate. Congress legislates. I guess you are afraid of a Dem Congress and a Dem president who will sign off on Dem legislation.

Second, I do think Obama would reverse many of the extreme righty exec powers already in place. This will appear liberal, and so be it, but I think he (and to some degree, Hillary) would move us back to the middle and stop the stupid "not me" signing statements. So, the really undesirable situation I think you face is having Dem Congress and Obama (like we had a Republican Congress + Cheney/Bush).

However, thirdly, I don't think Obama is going to use the same nasty "my way or the highway" approach that Cheney/Bush used. This is the key to his message and to his type of politics. Maybe you don't believe it, and that is okay. I do. I think Obama will be more inclusive of Republicans, talking to them, and doing so with respect. I think Bush was dismissive of Democrats and also, under Cheney's guide, amassed a great deal of executive power than I think Obama will reverse (and rightfully so). Hillary, I dunno, I think she liiiiiikes power.

I think McCain will be more inclusive, too, but I also don't think he has the charisma or inspirtational leadership qualities to pull it off. He has always crossed the aisle, but he is currently campaigning hard as a real conservative, and seemingly indifferent to public sentiment regarding the war. He is also not a skilled communicator, and I fear his bridge-builders with our allies and diplomacy/finesse with our enemies. I think Obama would excel at these challenges which are very high priority thanks to the very arrogant administration currently running the country.
 
563walk
      ID: 181472714
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 13:56
correction, on McCain: "and I fear he lacks bridge-building capabilities with our allies and..."
 
564Baldwin
      ID: 8354110
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 14:12
Respect, interesting. I guess being classy and graceful and a gentleman implies respect. I wonder if he is gracious enuff to give a little or just gracious enuff not to rub it in, that he doesn't have to give in?
 
565Perm Dude
      ID: 435815
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 15:02
I don't see any evidence that Obama will abandon what will get him the presidency, particularly since he is, by far, the candidate with the most detailed plans on the issues.

I saw Obama earlier today in Wilkes Barre. Standard stump speech stuff, but it was cool to see him live.
 
566Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 15:11
However, thirdly, I don't think Obama is going to use the same nasty "my way or the highway" approach that Cheney/Bush used. This is the key to his message and to his type of politics. Maybe you don't believe it, and that is okay. I do. I think Obama will be more inclusive of Republicans, talking to them, and doing so with respect. I think Bush was dismissive of Democrats and also, under Cheney's guide, amassed a great deal of executive power than I think Obama will reverse (and rightfully so). Hillary, I dunno, I think she liiiiiikes power.

this is the language and beliefs that resonate loudest with me. i firmly believe in the Obama way of doing things, and if that makes me a kool-aid drinker, so be it.

i also firmly believe that if Obama is elected, and then does not go the respectful, inclusive, and willing to listen to dialogue route he has been preaching, he would be defeated in 4 years in a landslide when he goes for re-election, and he will damage the democratic party is some pretty extreme ways.
 
567Jag
      ID: 171592622
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 16:11
Whoever becomes President, their party will benefit from cyclicality (a G.W. word) of the economy. The beginning of their first year should be near a economic recession and I believe it will take an upswing soon there after, barring some massive entitlement program. The economy may even greatly improve before January, but I am sure the incoming President will take credit for it.
 
568Boldwin
      ID: 43351115
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 17:58
Jag

And that explains why the maxim, 'Americans will always chose the correct path after exhausting every other possibilty' is true.
 
569Boldwin
      ID: 43351115
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 18:22
Dennis Prager
If those who call for unity told the whole truth, this is what they would say: "I want everyone to unite -- behind my values. I want everyone who disagrees with me to change the way they think so that we can all be united. I myself have no plans to change my positions on any important issues in order to achieve this unity. So in order to achieve it, I assume that all of you who differ with me will change your views and values and embrace mine."

Take any important issue that divides Americans and explain exactly how unity can be achieved without one of the two sides giving up its values and embracing the other side's values.

...

It is fascinating how little introspection Sen. Obama's "unity" supporters engage in -- they are usually the very people who most forcefully advocate multiculturalism, who scoff at the idea of an American melting pot and who oppose something as basic to American unity as declaring English the country's national language.

Their advocacy of multiculturalism and opposition to declaring English the national language are proof that the calls of the left-wing supporters of Barack Obama for American unity are one or more of three things: 1. A call for all Americans to agree with them and become fellow leftists. 2. A nice-sounding cover for their left-wing policies. 3. A way to further their demonizing of the Bush administration as "divisive."

In case the reader should dismiss these observations about calls for unity as political partisanship, let me make clear that they are equally applicable to calls for religious unity. For example, one regularly hears calls by many Christians for Christian unity. But how exactly will this be achieved? Will Catholics stop believing in their catechism and embrace Protestant theology, or will Protestants begin to regard the pope Christ's vicar on earth?

Ironically, one reason America became the freest country in the world was thanks to its being founded by disunited Christians -- all those Protestant denominations had to figure out a way to live together and make a nation.

Given what Sen. Obama's calls for unity really mean -- let's all go left -- it is no wonder he and his calls for unity are enthusiastically embraced by the liberal media.

For nearly eight years the media and Democrats have labeled President Bush's policies "divisive" simply because they don't agree with them. They are not one whit more divisive than Sen. Obama's positions. A question for Democrats, the media and other Obama supporters: How exactly are Mr. Obama's left-wing political positions any less "divisive" than President Bush's right-wing positions?

Second, the craving for unity is frequently childish. As we mature we understand that decent people will differ politically and theologically. The mature yearn for unity only on a handful of fundamental values, such as: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Beyond such basics, we yearn for civil discourse and tolerance, not unity.
 
570Boldwin
      ID: 43351115
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 19:01
Truly amazing development...

Hillary bridges vast gap.

Wins over the leader of the vast right wing conspiracy...well not Rush, not Ann, but one of the leaders, prolly the one she once hated and feared the most.
 
571Tree
      ID: 40355116
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 19:04
It is fascinating how little introspection Sen. Obama's "unity" supporters engage in -- they are usually the very people who most forcefully advocate multiculturalism, who scoff at the idea of an American melting pot and who oppose something as basic to American unity as declaring English the country's national language.

how can you be an advocate of multi-culturalism, yet scoff at the melting pot concept at the same time?

the problem with people like this is they don't understand that being a melting pot does not mean to homogenize and make everyone the same, but rather to embrace our differences and celebrate them.

as for the English = national language gimmick, why the hell do we want to make our national language one that came over here from a bunch of people from a foreign country?
 
572Boldwin
      ID: 43351115
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 20:19
Yes, the melting pot means you shed your hyphen and simply become an american. If not, no melting has taken place to speak of.
 
573Boldwin
      ID: 43351115
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 20:22
What would you suggest, Iroquois? Wait, they came over here from a foreign continent too.
 
574Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 20:52
Yes, the melting pot means you shed your hyphen and simply become an american. If not, no melting has taken place to speak of.

That's a good comment. The next time I make soup, I'll refer to the ingredients as Celery-Chowder, Clam-Chowder, and Potato-Chowder. It sounds just as stupid as African-American, Italian-American and Mexican-American.

Biliruben & Walk: Where exactly do you see Obama compromising? It's certainly not on healthcare and not on taxes; two key issues for conservatives. He was on the Wall Street Journal Report with Maria Bartiromo this past weekend and he talked about raising the capital gains rate back towards 28%.

You either socialize medicine or you do not. You either raise taxes or you do not. Where is the compromise? Yet Obama claims there's a place for everyone. Somehow I feel that the place for a lot of people is going to be in the crawlspace with a bucket of fish heads for dinner.

If he wants to run as a crazy s#it house liberal, fine by me, just don't try and pull the wool over our eyes that he's going to be some kind of uniter.
 
575Tree
      ID: 32351118
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 21:02
no, the melting part means you KEEP the identity of your people, and adding the American part.

you want to homogenize. i want to celebrate our differences, and relish them.

enjoy your hot dog on a white bread bun and wash it down with some miller lite.

i'll take the doro wat, injera, and wash it back with a glass of tej.

any day.
 
576Perm Dude
      ID: 435815
      Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 21:43
It isn't a melting pot. Never was. More like a tossed salad.

Except for you radishes, pissed that everyone else isn't a radish too and they they, in fact, enjoy being a not-radish.
 
577Wilmer McLean
      ID: 3032330
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 03:51
Obama, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Affairs has on his website barackobama.com the following:

Strengthen NATO: Obama will rally NATO members to contribute troops to collective security operations, urging them to invest more in reconstruction and stabilization operations, streamlining the decision-making processes, and giving NATO commanders in the field more flexibility.
Obama says he will, but chairman Obama hasn't - not one committiee meeting.

 
578Boldwin
      ID: 5231536
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 08:20
You say that like it's a bad thing.
 
579Boldwin
      ID: 5231536
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 08:21
Maybe he'll just forget to show up at the WH.
 
580Boldwin
      ID: 5231536
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 08:35
"Well we had the transition team ready and everything but he never showed up so I'm just keepin' the seat warm until he does." - Bush, 2011
 
581Perm Dude
      ID: 5935536
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 08:56
#578: Right. Maybe having empty meetings for the sake of having meetings is a good thing for some people, I suppose.

I've heard people take Obama to task for not holding meetings after he took over the chairmanship, but I haven't heard the bad effects that are supposedly occuring because no official meetings are being held.

I dunno. I suppose I'd like to see at least some pro-forma agenda being advanced in public meetings. But I don't really see any harm here.
 
582Boldwin
      ID: 5231536
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 09:04
This, too, prompted Obama to share with his readers a life lesson on how to handle white people: "It was usually an effective tactic, another one of those tricks I had learned: People were satisfied so long as you were courteous and smiled and made no sudden moves. They were more than satisfied, they were relieved – such a pleasant surprise to find a well-mannered young black man who didn't seem angry all the time." [Obama's autobiography - B]

First of all, I note that this technique seems to be the basis of Obama's entire presidential campaign - AC quoting Obama's autobiography
...which hopefully someone besides her has read.
 
583Boldwin
      ID: 5231536
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 09:06
PD

While you've got the axe out, the state dept is that way --->
 
584Perm Dude
      ID: 5935536
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 10:02
Heh. I'd keep the State Department (the problem isn't the idea of a State Department, it has been that this Administration has been pretty bad at it). There are all sorts of stuff I'd be cutting out, though.

As for being nice to white people in order to disarm their biases, I don't see anything wrong with that. It is a technique I use in the midst of Republicans--because many of them read nothing but Ann Coulter and hear nothing but Limbaugh and Hannity, they expect any Democrat they meet to be a spouting, smelly, raging idiot. Just being a normal person (and making no sudden motions, and the avoidance of wearing bright & shiny objects) goes a long way toward opening the doors.
 
585Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 10:20
Obama's autobiography

...which hopefully someone besides her has read.


would that be the one that won a Grammy 2 years ago for most spoken word album, has sold over 1 million copies, and was recognized by Joe Klein as "may be the best-written memoir ever produced by an American politician."

yea, i think other people have read it. in fact, i doubt Coulter has.

now, regarding the quote from Obama, "It was usually an effective tactic, another one of those tricks I had learned: People were satisfied so long as you were courteous and smiled and made no sudden moves. They were more than satisfied, they were relieved – such a pleasant surprise to find a well-mannered young black man who didn't seem angry all the time."

what exactly is wrong with that? never mind the fact it's Coulter who injects the phrase "white people" into the context.

not sure about you, but i tend to react more positively to smiling courteous people than i do to angry people.

and usually when i want something from some customer service person, it's the sweetness that gets me what i want, not the vinegar.
 
586Madman
      ID: 14139157
      Fri, Apr 04, 2008, 08:43
Obama and King ... Obama has seized on the early King to remind Americans about what we can achieve when we allow our imaginations to soar high as we dream big. Wright has taken after the later King, who uttered prophetic truths that are easily caricatured when snatched from their religious and racial context. What united King in his early and later periods is the incurable love that fueled his hopefulness and rage. As King's example proves, as we dream, we must remember the poor and vulnerable who live a nightmare. And as we strike out in prophetic anger against injustice, love must cushion even our hardest blows.

This is also why I viewed Obma's Wright Speech as so disappointing. Rather than doing his Selma stump speech, reflecting the early King, Obama discarded King almost entirely in that speech. Further, he defended the theology of grievance, and argued that he was fundamentally attached to economic policies driven by religious beliefs. This would be as opposed to economics driven by philosophy, "scientific" study, or ideology (which wouldn't be much better than religion). Indeed, he even argued that racism was rooted in the failure of economic policy (while ignoring the Imus' of the world).

Dyson simply accepts the Selma-speech Obama and ignores the Wright-speech Obama. I see no reason to do that.

It is fascinating how Obama's image can be so chameleon-like, with his supporters imputing to him their own policies and ideals. It will make a very interesting first-term Presidency.
 
587Perm Dude
      ID: 4734646
      Fri, Apr 04, 2008, 08:46
That's because his campaign isn't so much about believing in Obama, as about believing in ourselves.
 
588Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sat, Apr 05, 2008, 22:31
PJB: Uprooting the New Racism

By Patrick J. Buchanan

In his Philadelphia address on race, Sen. Obama identified as a root cause of white resentment affirmative action — the punishing of white working- and middle-class folks for sins they did not commit:

“Most working- and middle-class white Americans don’t feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race,” said Barack. “As far as they’re concerned, no one’s handed them anything. … So when they … hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed … resentment builds over time.”

On this issue, Barack seemed to have nailed it.

But then he revealed the distorting lens through which he and his fellow liberals see the world. To them, black rage is grounded in real grievances, while white resentments are exaggerated and exploited.

White resentments, said Barack, “have helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation. Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. … Talk show hosts and conservative commentators built entire careers unmasking bogus claims of racism while dismissing legitimate discussions of racial injustice and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse racism.”

What Barack is saying here is that the resentment of black America is justified, but the resentment of white America is a myth manufactured and manipulated by the conservative commentariat. Barack is attempting to de-legitimize the other side of the argument.

Yet, who is he to claim the moral high ground?

Where does this child of privilege who went to two Ivy League schools, then spent 20 years in a church where racist rants were routine, come off preaching to anyone? What are Barack’s moral credentials to instruct white folks on what they must do, when he failed to do what any decent father should have done: Take his wife and daughters out of a church where hate had a home in the pulpit?

Barack needs to reread the Lord’s admonition in the Sermon on the Mount: “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

Longshoreman philosopher Eric Hoffer once wrote that all great movements eventually become a business, then degenerate into a racket.

That is certainly true of the civil rights movement. Begun with just demands for an end to state-mandated discrimination based on race, it ends with unjust demands for state-mandated preferences, based on race.

Under affirmative action, white men are passed over for jobs and promotions in business and government, and denied admission to colleges and universities to which their grades and merits entitle them, because of their gender and race.

Paradoxically, America’s greatest warrior for equal justice under law and an end to reverse racism is, like Barack, a man of mixed ancestry. He is Ward Connerly. And his life’s mission is to drive through reverse discrimination the same stake America drove through segregation.

And when one considers that the GOP establishment has often fled Connerly’s cause and campaigns, his record of achievement is remarkable.

Connerly was chief engineer of CCRI, the 1996 California Civil Rights Initiative, Proposition 209, which outlawed affirmative action based on ethnicity, race or gender in all public institutions of America’s most populous state. Two years later, Connerly racked up a second victory in Washington.

In 2006, Connerly went to Michigan to overturn an affirmative action policy that kept Jennifer Gratz out of the University of Michigan, though she had superior grades and performance records than many minority students admitted. The Michigan proposition also carried and has been upheld by the courts.

One U.S. senator, however, taped an ad denouncing Connerly’s Proposition 2 in Michigan and endorsed affirmative action for minorities and women. That senator was Barack Obama.

Comes now the big test. Connerly is gathering signatures to place on the ballots in Nebraska, Arizona, Oklahoma, Colorado and Missouri — the latter two crucial swing states — propositions to outlaw all racial, gender and ethnic preferences. Voting would be the same day as the presidential election.

“Race preferences are on the way out,” declares Connerly.

Now that our national conversation is underway, Barack should be asked to explain why discrimination against whites is good public policy, while discrimination against blacks explains the rants of the Rev. Wright.

America is headed for a day, a few decades off, when there will be no racial majority, only a collection of minorities. When that day arrives, if some races and ethnic groups may be preferred because of where their ancestors came from, while others can be held back because their ancestors came from Europe, America will become the Balkans writ large.

Folks need to be able to separate the true friends of racial justice from the phonies who believe with the pigs on Orwell’s Animal Farm — that “all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
 
589Perm Dude
      ID: 13329513
      Sun, Apr 06, 2008, 09:41
That is funny--Pat Buchanan calling out Obama for speaking on race relations from a position of authority.

More to his point, however: Buchanan, like many on the Right, still confuses affirmative action with quotas. Until they understand the difference, they will continue to miss the point. And opportunity.
 
590Mattinglyinthehall
      Dude
      ID: 01629107
      Sun, Apr 06, 2008, 10:08
At least he isn't calling blacks ungrateful for slavery this time.
 
591Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Sun, Apr 06, 2008, 11:09
Ironically, Buchanan lines up more with Obama than McCain(or Bush) in his April 1st column.

Can any sane man believe the United States should go to war with a nuclear-armed Russia over Stalin's birthplace, Georgia?

Two provinces of Georgia, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, have seceded, with the backing of Russia. And there are 10 million Russian-speaking Ukrainians in the east of that country, and Moscow and Kiev are at odds over which is sovereign on the Crimean Peninsula.

To bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO would put America in the middle of these quarrels. We could be dragged into a confrontation with Russia over Abkhazia, or South Ossetia, or who owns Sebastopol. To bring these ex-republics of the Soviet Union into NATO would be an affront to Moscow not unlike 19th century Britain bringing the Confederate state of South Carolina under the protection of the British Empire.

How would Lincoln's Union have reacted to that?

With a weary army and no NATO ally willing to fight beside us, how could we defend Georgia if Tbilisi, once in NATO, defied Moscow and invaded Abkhazia and South Ossetia -- and Russia bombed the Georgian army and capital? Would we declare war? Would we send the 82nd Airborne into the Pankisi Gorge?

Fortunately, Germany is prepared to veto any Bush attempt to put Ukraine or Georgia on a fast track into NATO. But President Bush is no longer the problem. John McCain is.

As Anatol Lieven writes in the Financial Times, McCain supports a restoration of Georgian rule over Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine. He wants to throw Russia out of the G-8 -- and talks flippantly of bombing Iran.

Says McCain, "I would institute a policy called 'rogue state rollback.' I would arm, train, equip, both from without and from within, forces that would eventually overthrow the governments and install free and democratically elected governments."

Wonderful. A Second Crusade for Global Democracy. But with the Joint Chiefs warning of a war-weary Army and Marine Corps, who will fight all the new wars the neocons and their new champion have in store for us?

 
592biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Wed, Apr 09, 2008, 00:24
Condi getting schooled by that know-nothing on foreign policy, off-the-cuff, on the link between tyranny and terror, and the need to more clearly articulate this to the American people. 3 years ago.

 
593astade
      ID: 1533770
      Wed, Apr 09, 2008, 01:03
biliruben,

Thank you for sharing that video. I had never heard that exchange before.

On a side note, Condi does sound like the more 'eloquent' speaker. She is superior at getting to the point. I wonder if she will be called out for her eloquence when she is the nominee for VP?
 
594biliruben
      ID: 4911361723
      Wed, Apr 09, 2008, 01:16
No prob, Astade.

It sounds to me like she is superior in avoiding the point.

I assume your eloquence comment is a joke, but I don't get it.
 
595Perm Dude
      ID: 4032378
      Wed, Apr 09, 2008, 01:53
A good question by Obama, responded to by (first) an attempt to recast the question as an academic one and (then) a quick recap of the reasons why they went into Iraq by insisting that terrorism and tyranny are "linked."

She either completely missed the question or chose to answer the question she wanted asked, which was "Could you recap for us the Administration's reasons for going into Iraq?"
 
596Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, Apr 12, 2008, 16:42
Part 2