Personal responsibility extends to the purchase of health insurance as well. Citizens should not be able to cheat their neighbors by not buying insurance, particularly when they can afford it, and expect others to pay for their care when they need it. However, an individual mandate must take one’s income into account, and more importantly, it is an acceptable option only when the larger healthcare system has been fundamentally changed. It is unjust to require an individual to buy into a broken and dysfunctional system.
Second, we must create a culture of health that leads to responsible choices. We can do this by redesigning how public and private institutions influence individual behavior, and nowhere is this needed more than in public education. The CDC reports that nearly 80% of students—40 million of them—do not eat the recommended five servings of fruits and vegetables a day, and only one in three high school students participate in daily physical education. As a result, the number of obese children has tripled since 1980. We can correct this course with smart policies. Students should be weighed and their body mass index calculated, with the results and relevant educational material sent home to parents. School lunches, breakfasts, and vending machines should promote healthy foods, so that unhealthy alternatives are penalized or prohibited. Outside of public education, grocery stores in poor neighborhoods should receive tax incentives to provide a wide selection of fresh fruits and vegetables. The federal government should redesign the food stamp and WIC programs to incentivize the purchase of healthier foods. State and local governments should dramatically invest in bike paths, sidewalks, public parks, and active recreation programs to encourage physical activity.
Whatever you think of Mitt Romney, at least he doesn't walk around in denial (well, not in complete denial, anyway) of his previous agreements with today's Democratic agenda. Unlike Newt, who scrubbed the op-ed from his site. Of course the cached page remains, showing he was at one time proud enough of the piece to preserve it there.
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674
Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 00:42
there will be a mass exodus of christians from a third of the world.
Who cares. Save the whales!!
675
Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 02:06
PD
No, the books have nothing in common.
Real christians act like Christ.
Real muslims act like Mohammad. And therein lies a world of difference.
676
sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 03:29
Not true B. Mohammed, preached tolerance, patience and acceptance of others ideals. The split in Islam came about with Mohammeds passing, without having named a successor. Now exactly how you name a successor for a prophet,...well, that escapes me. But that is where the divide between the Sunni and Shiite originates. Then of course, you also have the Sufi, who as I recall from some years ago, is something of a merging between the 2 primary branches of Islam.
677
Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 07:03
You are just blowing smoke.
Mohammad raped pillaged and plundered his way thru the middle east.
Both sunni and shia when they aren't raping pillaging and plundering, demand double taxes on christians and jews, and death to polytheists. If that's your idea of tolerance, patience and acceptance you are quite easily pleased.
678
nerveclinic
ID: 4711362616 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 07:27
Baldwin you are the smoke blower. You went on and on about all these things that being done by Muslims, on and on. As if it's just normal.
I asked for examples that weren't extremist and you can't come up with any. Just a vague reference about Coptics. You are all smoke and no fire Baldwin and you defame an entire peoples religion with numerous charges and then nothing to back it up.
Certainly you can find some things, because there are strange things going on all over the world, even in America, but they will be extreme examples as I suggested, not the norm.
You have nothing except a bag of lies and empty fantasies and you throw dirt at the wall and hope some will stick and no one will question you but you have nothing. Then when anyone calls you out you just rant about liberals and The Koran and Muhammad.
You have nothing Baldwin. Try building your case with facts and examples and evidence rather then made up fantasies.
Don't get me wrong. There are things happening. There are still to this day many people getting stoned to death for adultery. Buried to their neck in dirt and then people in the village throw rocks at their head until they die. But these are remote areas, uneducated, living 500 years in the past and not the norm. You want to portray everyone the same.
679
nerveclinic
ID: 4711362616 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 07:32
And you know anyone can play your game Baldwin...
Christians are rapist. Let me back it up with facts...
Shocking statistics are coming from a new report on rape in the Democratic Republic of Congo. More than 400,000 women were raped in a 12-month period in 2006-07, according to a new study by three public health researchers from the International Food Policy Research Institute, Stony Brook University in New York, and the World Bank.
The study, due to be published in the American Journal of Public Health in June, found that 1,152 women were raped every day during that time frame – a rate equal to 48 per hour.
The Republic of Congo is a Christian Country. 96% of the population practices Christianity. So this proves Baldwin that Christians are rapists and enjoy rape. Correct?
I could go on and on believe me.
680
Tree
ID: 17039238 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 08:59
and of course, if you try to paint the entire Jehovah's Witness religion with the broad brush stroke of the child molestation a few church elders have been accused of, he is quick to leap on the defense.
yet, any other religion is allowed to be portrayed as extremist because of the actions of a few.
681
DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 09:27
I, for one, am COMPLETELY SHOCKED (!!!!!) that Boldwin's still a raging bigot, as demonstrated by his own words above. This is a startling and new revelation that I have never ever before seen on this board, and I am truly enthralled by the conversation. It's quite amazing to me that this has never before come up in conversation on here. You would have thought it would have by now. You learn something completely new and amazing every day, and I thank each and every one of you for bringing this incredible new information to light. I'm sure that your words above will at least help to enlighten him and change his mind.
682
DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 09:31
But hey, I'm for one glad that the proprietors of this board want to let it turn into Stormfront! I think that's completely awesome to let someone spew vile hate speech on the private forum completely unfettered, it's an excellent representation of the brand that has been built! I believe this is also an excellent decision. I only look forward to the inevitable dissertations about how the Negro is an inferior race to be subjugated being allowed here under the same principles. Have you considered letting the KKK put up a banner ad on the site? That would be an excellent source of additional revenue with no reputational consequences whatsoever as well!
683
nerveclinic
ID: 4711362616 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 09:37
So Dwetzel you would prefer a censored forum because it's better if some people views are not allowed to be heard?
Personally I am not a fan of censorship. I live in a country where political discourse is censored and I prefer to have to listen to rhetoric I don't agree with rather then having a political forum censored.
684
Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 10:04
Nerve...no. No. It makes a huge difference between having scriptural advocacy for rape, pillaging and looting and conversion by the sword, and the opposite.
The difference is night and day. Having scriptural license to abuse others means that even basic human conscience is no obstacle.
685
Tree
ID: 51219169 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 10:32
i have no issues with Baldwin posting his hate speech here, no matter how ignorant, ill-informed, and wrong it is.
every time i read it, it makes me feel like my parents raised me right, teaching me it is far better to love than hate, and that loving takes effort and education, while hatred is for the lazy and ignorant.
686
Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 10:37
Real christians act like Christ.
Exactly. The problem is that you think Christ was only the guy who overturned tables and that nothing he said should apply to the way you interact with Muslims. Nothing.
687
DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 12:23
"So Dwetzel you would prefer a censored forum because it's better if some people views are not allowed to be heard?"
For the same reason that it's not OK to burn crosses in front of black people's houses or tell someone you want to drive to their house and kill them on a message forum ... yes, for some narrowly defined values of "some people's views". I'm aware of the existence of a potential slippery slope, but I don't think that that totally precludes the concept.
It's also quite clearly commercially stupid, since it alienates a significant percentage of the customer base and one's advertisers become, indirectly, associated with the hate speech (see: Limbaugh, R.) -- though I concede that isn't my choice to make.
688
Mith
ID: 23217270 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 12:37
All in the interpretation. The vast majority of all the Christians who ever lived would tell Boldwin he's got an awful lot of it all wrong.
The license to reinterpret taken by different generations and cultures, not to mention subtle shifts which evolve into major changes in the way language is used over time is why religion is so easily corruptable.
Boldwin is so eager to believe that a handful of sinister-sounding passages in the Muslim faith were intended in the worst possible way. Anyone who has taken moment to research the context finds that the majority of Muslim scholars will show that in most cases, with the consideration of preceding or following passages, the intent is far more benign or at least much less general than B prefers to think. In many other cases, the passages aren't even from the Koran, itself.
Of course exactly the same need for understanding context is required to not make Christianity into a religion just as senselessly violent as B desires of Islam.
What I find interesting is that the majority of these Christians who demand that the most aggressively violent interpretation of Islam possible is the true identity of that faith also fall over themselves to interpret Christianity as warlike as possible. For example, Boldy will tell you that everything you need to understand about his religion is contained within 66 books and that supposed religious scholars who came along later with convoluted and contradictory interpretations are heretics.
But then he will cite people like St. Augustine, who's ideas twisted up the faith sufficiently to justify the Crusades, with such notions as that violence is righteous when committed in the name of Christ. Or he will tell you he knows for sure that what Jesus really meant in th Sermon on the Mount was that one should turn the other cheek when insulted, that you can't take that being struck about the face stuff as literally referring to actual acts of violence that we are commanded to forgive.
689
DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 12:42
"It makes a huge difference between having scriptural advocacy for rape, pillaging and looting and conversion by the sword, and the opposite."
Let's cover looting:
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Rape:
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
(Yes, that's right, punish that rapist by pairing him up with his rape victim for life).
Also rape:
When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.
Conversion by the sword:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.
Murder/conversion by the sword:
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.
Murder of kids, because their dads did something wrong -- this is just a bonus:
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.
That about sums it up. Did I miss anything? It's right there in the scripture of your holy book, advocating rape, murder, conversion by the sword. So saying yours is "the opposite" is demonstrably untrue.
690
DWetzel
ID: 53326279 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 12:45
"Of course exactly the same need for understanding context is required to not make Christianity into a religion just as senselessly violent as B desires of Islam."
Well, yeah. (Hence the point of what I crossposted, obviously).
"Boldy will tell you that everything you need to understand about his religion is contained within 66 books and that supposed religious scholars who came along later with convoluted and contradictory interpretations are heretics."
Also, well, yeah. Also hence the point of the crossposted, which are all within those 66 books. :)
691
nerveclinic
ID: 4711362616 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 22:27
So Dwetzel you simply made my point. Why silence a fool, when it's so much sweeter exposing his fallacies?
A burning cross on someones lawn is an act of terror, but you've just shown that words can dissolve like a slug covered in salt.
692
DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 23:10
I admit that there's an element of "OK, this is the 893489723498792th time I've heard the same ignorant crap; no living organism can actually that be incapable of learning, can it?" seeping in.
693
sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 23:20
I dunno DW. Harken back to the Dark Ages of Europe when the Christian Church was the political powerhouse and compare scientific advance from Europe, to those from the Muslim territories. Remember, Gallileo was prosecuted and convicted by the Church for heresy.
694
DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 23:55
A fairly valid point. Modern technology should make even the snail's pace of learning then move up to like an opossum speed today though, and it just ain't happening.
695
Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 18:04
I'll answer in more detail when I recover, but until then, which of those points is a biblical instruction to action for christians in the christian era?
None.
Since Israel was non-expansionary, how can they be accused of wars of religious conversion?
You can feel horrified by the war of extermination on the Amorite original inhabitants of the promised land if you like, but that was God's judgement on them for 400 year of post-partum abortions to facilitate their immoral lifestyles.
696
sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 18:29
The Crusades, was essentially ordered by the Church and Nobels faced excommunication if they refused. Or death,m if the King called for troops and his Barons etc, declined to answer their Kings call.
697
sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 18:29
The Crusades, was essentially ordered by the Church and Nobels faced excommunication if they refused. Or death,m if the King called for troops and his Barons etc, declined to answer their Kings call.
The crusades, were conducted by the finest the Christian world had to offer at the time. All things in perspective to their relative times.
700
Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 21:15
I think Boldwin doesn't understand the irony of himself calling pro-war Christians "unchristian."
701
DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 21:38
Wiki covers this nicely:
No true Scotsman is an informal logical fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule.
702
Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 22:17
The crusades, were conducted by the finest the Christian world had to offer at the time. All things in perspective to their relative times. - Sarge
Damn those followers of a sect that was founded 25 years after the Crusades (according to your link) for starting the Crusades!
Must have been Soros and his time machine again.
704
DWetzel
ID: 31111810 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 22:53
Also, shame on that Pope guy for being suckered in by a far more powerful force in the church.
Alternatively, lol Boldwin.
Alternatively, see post 701.
705
sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 23:16
Never B, never have I seen ANYONE attempt to deny, that the Crusades were started by and encouraged by, western Christianity. Your singular attempts to rewrite history, are laughable. Truly, laughable.
706
Tree
ID: 17039238 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 23:29
Baldwin will defend to the death the horrors perpetuated by Christians in the name of Christianity.
707
Mith
ID: 37838313 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 23:32
The point B refuses to acknowledge or address is that while he counters one argument after another with context about his particular version of Christianity's "true" ideals, he refuses to allow for any similar context to be applied to a religion he overtly seeks to publicly demonize.
He will tell you that historical atrocities committed in the name of religion were justified by distortions of the cannon. But he has never displayed here the slightest interest in researching the contextual intent of his favorite passages from Islamic texts. When such arguments are presented to him, he does not even bother with the courtesy of a response.
What's more bizarre to me are his contradictions in the other direction. For example, conquering Iraq and the accompanying extermination of Iraqis in the range of six to seven figures worth of human beings and whatever torture and dehuminazation and loss of innocent life that we all know will naturally come with sending thousands of young men into a war zone is accomodated just fine by certain "Just War" clauses in his version of Christianity - which were written to justiy the Christian terror of the Crusades.
708
sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Sun, Mar 18, 2012, 23:36
Yes, it was a long time ago however, between the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, et al; few causes of human death and suffering can compare to what Christianity has wrought upon this world.
And FTR B? Admitting the truthfulness of that statement, in no ways compromises my faith. On the contrary, it strengthens me to fight to ensure it never happens again. But to DENY that truth, is tantamount to Irans denial of the Holocaust.
709
Mith
ID: 23217270 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 00:26
FTR, 706 is wrong and muddies up the argument with a point that B is happy to refute, permitting him to run away from the more valid issues called on his flawed belief-paradigm. He neither defends not denies most atrocities committed in Christ's name, he explains that if you understand the context (his version of it), you will see that it the faith was distorted to so it in the name of his religion. He has no problem blaming corrupted stewardship of his faith. Even though i'm no Christian by standard of faith, I tend to agree, at least most of the time.
The problems come when: (1) He denies that other faiths suffer from the same type of distortions of their contextual nuances. He just wants you to believe they are inherently evil and refuses to look any further into it. (2) He selectively permits certain amendments to the Gospel among those used by the corruptors of ChristIanity when they happen to suit the Earthly politics of his preference.
710
Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 01:42
No reasonable person could read the precise instructions in the Koran for intimidation and military conquest so as to turn the entire world into muslim subjects.
It isn't debatable. No amount of sophistry and finesse can whittle away the specific instructions. I've shown you plenty of specifics but you studiously forget it as fast as I post it.
It isn't a later corruption of Islam, these instructions to rape, pillage, murder threaten and tax the rest of the world into subservience.
Now I'll grant you that right alongside these specific blood curdling instructions on how to subjugate a nation to Islam, you'll read a passage that says 'there is no compulsion in Islam'. Which is a bold-faced lie springing from the obvious need to clean up what is a devastating image problem, that being that other nations don't want to be raped, pillaged, murdered threatened and taxed into subservience.
And we'll just read that scripture 'no compulsion in Islam' to wishful thinkers like the MITH's of the world and they will blind themselves to the threat.
711
sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 02:08
Context, parables, etc etc. The Koran contains many seemingly contradictory statements and directives; just as the Bible does. But MITH is spot on B, you dismiss those in the Bible and explain them away; while ignoring the same in the Koran and holding steadfastly to the extremes contained therein. Your entire position, is utterly devoid of intellectual honesty. It is nowhere to be found, in any of your "arguments".
712
Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 10:07
That is just whopping dishonesty on your part to claim equivalence.
There are no instructions in the Bible for a christian to pick up a physical weapon. All arguments for just wars and the like do not spring from the Bible because there is no biblical support whatsoever.
There are countless requirements in the Koran for a muslim to go to war.
713
DWetzel
ID: 49962710 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 10:35
lol at all of you for bothering to have a religious debate with the cultist. I am still shocked, SHOCKED, mind you, that this conversation is going this way.
714
Tree
ID: 592501910 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 11:54
lol at all of you for bothering to have a religious debate with the cultist.
i wouldn't go that far.
religious zealot and Christianist? yes. Cultist? that's debatable.
715
DWetzel
ID: 49962710 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 12:00
Meh, I would go that far. When you start defending that subset of the subset of your religion to the exclusion of all else, I think the word applies.
If you'd technically prefer sectarianist, I could use that instead and it would be more accurate. It's just a pain to type.
716
Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 12:36
It's actually a faux religious debate, because n only a small percentage of fundamentalist Christians and Muslims actually take their ancient scriptures literally in their day to day lives. Most of the conflicts are not religion-based, but geo-political based, and have been for centuries.
Boldwin conveniently ignores that almost all of what we call the Muslim world had been colonized and exploited for centuries by English, Spanish, French, Dutch, Russian and Turkish overlords. Even the US can be counted among the oppressors when you figure in our actions in the Phillipines after the Spanish-American War promoted the marginalization of Moro Muslims on Mindinao under the thumb of the Christian hierarchy in Manila, established by the Spanish. So quit with the Muslims oppressing the Christians and Jews unless you want to fully discuss the history of the British in Pakistan, India and Malaya, the Dutch in Indonesia, the French in North Africa, and the Russians in the Caucasus, Azerbaijan, Kazahkstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Kyrgystan among others.
Fears of a Muslim march to world war based on passages from the Koran are nonsensical. Modern world wars are fought over territorial and resource issues. Internal or civil wars are usually based on class warfare and oppressive economic issues. Anyone who thinks the Arab Spring is about religion, or that Iran's three decade conflict with the west is about religion, or even the six decade conflict between Israel and its Arab neighbors is about religion, is locked into a short-sighted worldview based on self-serving arrogance concerning their belief that it's their religion that's the only true path. Most average Christians and Muslims are way more concerned with feeding their families than warring with each other theological nuances.
717
sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 12:43
lol why do I feel like the Professor just walked into the lecture hall while we argued a philosophical point, and then embarassed every gddmn one of us with his wisdom? :/
718
boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 14:21
Fears of a Muslim march to world war based on passages from the Koran are nonsensical.
are they? Your points are all valid but they skip over one part motivation, yes governments and leaders are driven by non-religious goals in war and always have been since the beginning of time but what is motivation of peasant in the field that will see none of these gains? Many often times this is where religion comes into play, how does a leader inspire someone to risk there lives for goals they can never enjoy in? In-general the ideas that lead people to war are nonsensical.
719
Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 15:16
Fears of a Muslim march to world war based on passages from the Koran are nonsensical
It will be on you before you know it. The opportunity is being handed to them on a silver platter by the same people in the west who handed Iran over into the clutches of the Ayatollah.
I know why. You don't.
720
Boldwin
ID: 12214143 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 15:25
Boldwin conveniently ignores that almost all of what we call the Muslim world had been colonized and exploited for centuries
Where did I ever minimize this? It's just more motivation for starving and humiliated hundreds of millions who have been seething with resentment for centuries.
You don't see how very much they are in the mindset of dark ages desert raiders. You don't see the delusions of grandeur they harbor for their religion's future. You don't see how electrifying it will be to suddenly and miraculously be handed a unified califate over 1/3 of the world, a financially devastated 'great satan', more oil wealth than they know what to do with.
721
sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 15:30
re 718...what motivates the peasant? The knoiwledge that if they dont, they will be put to death by their dictator. That pretty much assures the peasants compliance.
722
boikin
ID: 532592112 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 16:20
compliance and motivation are not the same thing.
723
sarge33rd
ID: 4717718 Mon, Mar 19, 2012, 19:26
close enough for government work. When your "leige lord" rides in and says pickup thy sword or die; he doesnt muh give a sh*t how motivated you are. He wants to see you comply.
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