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Subject: Occupy Wall Street
Posted by: Khahan
- [54138190] Thu, Sep 22, 2011, 17:52
Occupy Wall Street
This was pointed out to me by a friend in Northern Jersey who is going up this saturday to check things out and maybe join in the protests. I had never heard of this before and thought I'd bring it to everybody's attention. Especially since I know there is a vocal NY contingent on these boards. |
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| 549 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 09:07
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No, they do have a basis in reality. One of the largest users of commodity trading that I'm aware of is Southwest Airlines. Southwest locks in a price for their fuel prices and sets their ticket prices with that price fixed. In 2004/05 and airlines were losing billions, Southwest was the only airline to make a profit. A closer look at their financial statements showed that they actually had a loss on their flight operations, but had a huge gain on their fuel hedging position. The net result was a small profit while other airlines lost huge amounts.
There is risk with hedging. If fuel prices had plummetted, Southwest would have had losses on their hedge positions and probably would have made a small profit, this time the result of their operations doing well. The other airlines would have likely made more with the lower fuel costs.
Trucking companies are another example. After labor costs, their next highest cost is most likely fuel costs. How can they set rates if the price of fuel is swinging wildly. One thing some companies have done is added on a fuel surcharge, but smarter companies are hedging their fuel prices (while still probably adding the surcharge) so they can get an estimate of their costs for the year.
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| 550 | Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 09:42
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Many farmers lock in prices for their crops for when they get harvested. On the other side, Kelloggs locks in prices for grains they will buy. The MF global collapse may cause this to be curtailed. As these farmers, etc are only being paid 74% of their accounts thru no fault of their own. So far, nobody has been charged and over one billion dollars is "missing". The puppet Obama has done little to prosecute the massive financial fraud. This is because he gets a lot of money from the financial industry. We are back on topic now.
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| 551 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 09:49
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re: 547, but that is not what is happening, show me some data that proves this, it should be fairly strait forward, but you can't because it isn't reality.
re: 549, I thought they made a small profit because of the savings they had from using the oil contracts not selling them or am I miss reading what you wrote?
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| 552 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 09:59
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Re: 551
I'll admit that I don't know what the exact transactions were. The end result is the same.
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| 553 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 10:23
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#549: You're right--many of the players in the futures markets are users who use the market to hedge. But the hedgers aren't affecting the market so much, IMO.
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| 554 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319
Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 12:56
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from 551: re: 547, but that is not what is happening, show me some data that proves this, it should be fairly strait forward, but you can't because it isn't reality.
Umm, yes it is and did. Can you not recall yourself, the gas runup a yr ago or so, and the one in 05 when gas went from $2.20/g to $4.80 in a matter of weeks? ALL, while supply was sound and demand was steady or declining.
History itself, is my proof.
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| 555 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319
Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 13:27
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link
link
link
link
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| 556 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Fri, Jan 27, 2012, 13:54
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re 550: How about this one?
Of course, we need to keep in mind that (thank God) the President doesn't prosecute anyone. That's what the Justice Department is for.
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| 557 | Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 09:06
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Three prosecutions down and about 9000 to go.
Farmers Sue Jon Corzine Over Missing Millions
MF Global's clients included 38,000 wheat farmers, cattle ranchers and others who "hedged" their crop prices by placing millions in MF Global accounts. Those accounts were supposed to be "segregated and secure," according to the federal suit, meaning MF Global could not draw on those funds.
The lawsuit, filed on behalf of all 38,000 customers, alleges that when MF Global made a series of bad investments -- notably in European debt -- it began "siphoning funds withdrawn from segregated client accounts" to cover its debts.
"This is a suit by the real victims of MF Global," said plaintiff's attorney Mark Baker of the law firm Anderson, Baker & Swanson. "The missing funds were not investments in MF Global, or loans to MF Global, but rather the customer's own money as collateral to guaranty their contracts. They were not to be used by others – let alone their own broker – to speculate on risky and exotic securities."
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| 558 | Frick
ID: 52182321
Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 12:09
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Those funds should be covered by the SIPC. The SIPC is similar to FDIC, but for brokerage firms.
This Business Week article seems to imply that is correct, but they are free to file lawsuits. The problem they are going to have is getting restitution from a bankrupt company.
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| 559 | Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Sun, Jan 29, 2012, 12:03
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They would not have a lawsuit if their funds were 100% covered by SIPC. It should not have been a securities brokerage bankruptcy; it should have been a commodities brokerage bankruptcy. The farmers would have been first in line. 99.99% of the accounts were commodities, and .01% were securities. Zerohedge explains it: Why SIPC? MF Global Customers Were Thrown Under the Bus on Day 1
Why was MF Global put through a SIPA liquidation designed for securities brokers?
Answer: to protect the creditors.
Had MF Global been resolved under Subchapter IV of Chapter 7 of the Bankruptcy Code (appropriately entitled "Commodity Broker Liquidation"), customers would have been put first, against the interests of the large bank creditors of MF Global. From the unambiguous Historical and Revision Notes in the US Code (emphasis ours):
SENATE REPORT NO. 95-989
[Section 765] Subsection (a) of this section [enacted as section 766(h)] provides that with respect to liquidation of commodity brokers which are not clearing organizations, the trustee shall distribute [commodity] customer property to customers on the basis and to the extent of such customers' allowed net equity claims, and in priority to all other claims. This section grants customers' claims first priority in the distribution of the estate. Subsection (b) [enacted as section 766(i)] grants the same priority to member property and other customer property in the liquidation of a clearing organization. A fundamental purpose of these provisions is to ensure that the property entrusted by customers to their brokers will not be subject to the risks of the broker's business and will be available for disbursement to customers if the broker becomes bankrupt.
Some tough questions need to be asked to those who approved the last minute handing over of what was primarily a commodities broker into the hands of a trustee experienced only with securities brokers, and pursuant to SIPA legislation that does not afford protections first to the commodities customers. The entire model of customer protection under SIPA is that it establishes an insurance fund for securities customers. Because no such fund exists for commodities customers, they are put at an extreme disadvantage from the outset.
Who made the decision to throw MF Global into a SIPA liquidation? More to come...
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| 560 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 15:42
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It was not their fault they lead there companies to ruin, they had a metal illness.
They were all run by psychopaths, because psychopaths are able to take advantage of the “relative chaotic nature of the modern corporation,” including “rapid change, constant renewal” and high turnover of “key personnel.” Such circumstances allow them to ascend through a combination of “charm” and “charisma,” which makes “their behaviour invisible” and “makes them appear normal and even to be ideal leaders.”
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| 561 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319
Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 15:57
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That we have psychotic people in charge of corporate America, shouldnt surprise many.
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| 562 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 15:58
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Many politicians fit the bill as well.
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| 563 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515
Mon, Jan 30, 2012, 17:30
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Or university presidents. Or school superintendents.
Really anyone who has leadership and power consolidation as as an end instead of a means.
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| 564 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 10:59
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So in other words Democracy(at least in it's current form) is a failed system because are doomed to choose the mentally insane to lead us?
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| 565 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515
Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 12:21
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More a flaw of modern capitalism, which political structures attempt to emulate, in my mind.
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| 566 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 12:35
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I think you mean more a flaw of power, not of capitalism.
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| 567 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515
Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 12:46
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Money is power.
The tools necessary to climb to the top of the modern corp are not necessarily the same as those needed to make the corp succeed.
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| 568 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319
Tue, Jan 31, 2012, 12:52
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Indeed Bili, they are not the same. It is not necessary, to cast aside as er thought, ones family or the families of those you employ. A company, need not function in that regard in order to provide enviable ROI. A brief review of any of the hundreds of "Best Companies to Work For" lists which are out there, will demonstrate as much. Yet, American busnesses by and large at the corporate level, see the employee as property and they are treated as such.
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| 569 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519
Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 07:41
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Zombie Apocalypse
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| 570 | Khahan
ID: 373143013
Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 08:25
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rofl! nice boldwin. probably more suited to the joke thread, but still funny.
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| 571 | Mith
ID: 23217270
Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 09:36
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a flaw of modern capitalism, which modern political structures try to emulate
Agreed.
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| 572 | Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 10:19
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1. MF Global goes bankrupt, $1.2 billion missing
2. Jon Corzine resigns in disgrace
3. Jon Corzine Raised $500,000 for Obama
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| 573 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Wed, Feb 01, 2012, 11:15
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Sure--he's got free time on his hands.
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| 574 | C.SuperFreak
ID: 5111381515
Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 11:28
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Wall Street crowd is about to get a bit richer with the the Facebook IPO offerring. Zuckerbergs famous pig.
I'm probably in the minority but I've never been a big fan of Facebook and don't recognize or understand it's value (I had the same opinion with AOL in the 90's). But it appears that Zuckerberg is going to be one wealthy kid. Maybe he can save the Dodgers....
I probably spend more time browsing this site than wading thru Facebook.
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| 575 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 11:59
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Facebook's IPO is set to make something like 1,000 new millionaires.
Facebook makes their money from gathering personal information and selling it to advertisers. I'm not sure that a 100B valuation is appropriate or not, but it is valuable. And for everyone who wants to bash Facebook and/or Google for gathering personal information.
From Jeff Jarvis
Just got hacked off at a France24 producer who wanted me to come on the air to talk about Facebook's business plan and how it makes its money from advertising using information about us.
How do you make money? I demanded.
Uh pretty much the same way, he said.
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| 576 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 16:11
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The question that never seems to be asked or atleast I don't see it being asked is "well that's great facebook is making billions of advertising but are advertisers making anything off facebook" this could be generalized web marketing in general
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| 577 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 08:08
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The same could be said for almost any type of marketing. Actually, web advertising has much better metrics of effectiveness then almost any other type of advertising. When you click through an ad it has referal information.
I'll throw a plug for Guru here. Click through the ads occasionally, it results in revenue that helps support the site.
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| 578 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 11:23
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New York
Interesting read on changes to Wall Street and large banks.
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| 579 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 17:14
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I guess we can stop blaming wall street? I am not sure if that was a pro wall street piece in the sense that they are safe, they will not steal your money, or if everyone was lying in it.
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| 580 | Frick
ID: 52182321
Wed, Feb 08, 2012, 20:24
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I don't think we should stop blaming Wall Street, but the realization that leveraging companies more and more and getting huge bonuses for it isn't going to be happening (hopefully) anymore. Does that mean that more talent goes to other industries. Probably, but having talent go to (again hopefully) industries that produce good or services that are more beneficial is a good thing.
The realization that they have some blame is a refreshing start.
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| 581 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Thu, Feb 09, 2012, 16:49
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It must be spreading because I read about the exact same story in the economist talking about london and new york bankers.
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| 582 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 10:28
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I wasn't sure where to put this. A scary look at just how much of the trading markets are not understood. By anyone.
Wired - High Speed Trading
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| 583 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718
Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 13:52
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that is frightening. In my minds eye, the solution is simple...disallow electronic auto-trades.
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| 584 | biliruben
ID: 34820210
Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 14:36
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The answer is to tax every single trade. It would force us to track them, and it would force the programmers to be more judicious in the use of them, because every trade costs money.
Force them to think in terms of long-term investment through smart use of the tax code.
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| 585 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519
Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 14:51
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It figures.
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| 586 | biliruben
ID: 34820210
Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 15:45
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Do you think buying and selling a stock a thousand times an hour provides any useful benefit for our society?
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| 587 | Khahan
ID: 373143013
Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 15:52
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Taxing every single trade is not the answer. Too punishing to the 'little guy.'
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| 588 | biliruben
ID: 59551120
Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 15:55
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Give exemptions to retirement accounts, just like we do now for them with capital gains. "Little guys" don't generally have large non-exempt brokerage accounts. And I don't know of too many little guys who make more than a few dozen trades a year.
We are talking small amounts - say .01% a trade. It would only hurt the quants.
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| 589 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 17:07
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don't we already tax every trade as capital gains?
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| 590 | biliruben
ID: 34820210
Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 17:27
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No. Only the cumulative annual gains.
I'm not talking about capital gains here in any case. I'm talking about a transaction tax.
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| 591 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718
Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 14:02
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1%'er, leaves 1% tips
"mention the 99% in my boss' presence and feel his wrath. So proudly does he wear his 1% badge of honor that he tips exactly 1% every time he feels the server doesn't sufficiently bow down to his holiness."
THAT, is why OWS.
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| 592 | Tree
ID: 401292713
Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 14:33
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if he eats at the same restaurants after leaving that tip, i can only imagine the various bodily fluids, garbage, and other items he's ingested.
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| 593 | sarge33rd
ID: 4717718
Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 14:18
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insulting tip a hoax
New developments suggest that the receipt from the restaurant may have been digitally altered. According to the website the Smoking Gun, True Food Kitchen's spokesperson said it found the original merchant copy of the receipt, and the one circulating the Internet was "altered and exaggerated." The original receipt does not contain the tip "Get a real job." Also, the real bill was for $33, not $133, and the tip given was $7.33, not $1.33.
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| 594 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 16:36
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Upper class people are more likely to behave selfishly, studies suggest
I have one concern about this article and it is that it implies that being wealthy is the cause of selfish behavior but it could very easily be the other way around, selfishness leads to monetary success.
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| 595 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Tue, Feb 28, 2012, 18:18
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Could be. It probably isn't straightforward, but certainly privilege seems to go hand-in-hand with an expectation that some things, like rules, don't apply.
Maybe the wealthy see themselves as more detached from society, making rules designed to protect societal cohesion as less binding to them.
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| 596 | Perm Dude
ID: 24625213
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 16:05
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Standard & Poor's opening defense: "Our rating were clearly puffery, and responsible investors would never have relied upon them."
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| 597 | Frick
ID: 432501512
Mon, Jul 08, 2013, 16:53
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S&P is attempting CYA. Intent to defraud might be a tough conviction, but they are definitely guilty of not upholding their obligations that they have as a NRSRO.
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| 598 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923
Tue, Sep 24, 2013, 15:05
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Yeah, they really think this way. The 99% owe a "debt of gratitude" to the 1%.
So stop asking for a reacharound.
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