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Subject: Timeline: Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson, Mo. Posted by: Bean - [5292191] Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 14:10 Link. It would be awesome if we can see justice served in this whole thing. Some very interesting and revealing items, that are unfortunately politically incorrect to point out: Sunday Aug. 10 A candlelight vigil to honor Brown later turns violent. More than a dozen businesses are vandalized and looted. More than 30 people are arrested and two police officers suffered injuries, police said. Friday Aug. 15 Noon – An attorney for Dorian Johnson, who is an eyewitness interviewed by law enforcement, says that Dorian Johnson and Brown took part in the convenience store robbery prior to the shooting. My take is a lone cop who is apprehending two suspects of a crime in a crime infested neighborhood that has no respect for law feels endangered and possibly over reacts. The events that followed demonstrate that his fears were well founded. Racial tension is a reality, who started it is not important. That ALL take responsibility for their actions is important. | |||||||
| 81 | Bean ID: 5292191 Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 21:28 |
<79>Our country's very foundation, and a huge reason our country is so exceptional, is that we have historically embraced immigration I wouldnt be so sure of that. | ||||||
| 82 | biliruben ID: 229341622 Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 21:33 |
Okay, on occasion, reluctantly embraced immigration. In comparison to most other countries, we have certainly been much more welcoming. And we are much stronger country for it. Can you imagine if we were still just a bunch of rejected puritans? | ||||||
| 83 | Bean ID: 5292191 Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 22:22 | Something wrong with puritans? | ||||||
| 84 | biliruben ID: 229341622 Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 23:27 | nope. but i am not inviting them to my birthday. we are officially ot. | ||||||
| 85 | biliruben ID: 229341622 Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 23:36 | (That last post was written while eating an ice cream cone. Yum. Puritans don't like ice cream, I hear.) | ||||||
| 86 | Pancho Villa ID: 2131916 Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 22:56 | This is not protesting | ||||||
| 87 | Bean ID: 121011511 Thu, Nov 27, 2014, 12:29 | Was that the store that Brown robbed just before the shooting? | ||||||
| 88 | Boldwin ID: 510591420 Thu, Nov 27, 2014, 15:40 |
bili #79 "Immigrants, by and large, are job creators, not job thieves." Seriously, you believe the majority of illegal immigrants are business owners and employers? And if you don't, then you believe they hold a job that an American could be holding. It just amazes me that poor Dem voters can't do this simple math. Gruber has a job and Gruber appears to be right. | ||||||
| 89 | biliruben ID: 229341622 Fri, Nov 28, 2014, 10:51 |
Seriously. They may not be now, but they are more likely to be in the future, then say your whiny sons, who are just sitting around and complaining that their jobs were "stolen". What someone who walks 2 weeks through the desert to get to the US does, is not sit around and complain. They start a drywall business of their own. Clearly, they have a better handle on capitalism. | ||||||
| 90 | Pancho Villa ID: 2131916 Sat, Nov 29, 2014, 10:37 |
#87 - Yes, Bean, same store. It's hard to understand how this incident became the poster child for police aggression. There seems to be no dispute that Brown physically assaulted the cop, attempting to take the officer's weapon, and was initially shot during that altercation. The fatal shot occurred when Brown charged the officer in what can reasonably be considered another assault on the officer, given Brown's physical status of 6'5', 300 lbs. I think it's a given that when you physically assault a police officer, attempting to take his gun, all bets are off. It only takes a moment of current research to find numerous fatal police shootings that rise much higher in questionable justification, like the killing of 12 year old Tamir Rice in Cleveland. There's certainly a strong basis for closely examining the procedures used by law enforcement when it comes to using deadly force, and it's not hard to be sympathetic with protests that demand accountability. But when I see Al Sharpton race baiting following the statement that the grand jury wouldn't indict Officer Wilson in the Brown case, without demanding accountability from those who use the incident for criminal activities like theft and arson, my sympathies are quickly abandoned. | ||||||
| 91 | weykool ID: 21012423 Sat, Nov 29, 2014, 10:50 | Very sad that so many people will stake out a position before all the evidence is in. Saying Brown had his hands up, the officer didnt know about the theft, proclaiming it was a dirty shooting, or the orbital socket was broken are all examples of speaking out of ignorance. The question remains Who has the integrity to man up and apologize for their premature ignorant statements? | ||||||
| 92 | Tree ID: 161036918 Sat, Nov 29, 2014, 11:38 |
i have long maintained that if you are aggressive towards an authority figure with a gun, you have a reasonable chance of getting dead. this situation, unfortunately, is no different. | ||||||
| 93 | Boldwin ID: 510591420 Sat, Nov 29, 2014, 22:53 |
bili 1) You have no idea what they have to say about it. I haven't quoted them once. 2) They've since replaced the houses they lost and have jobs as good as or better now. 3) They could not open their own drywall business, something we discussed at length, because the foreign competition had ruined the profitability of the industry. 4) The minorities you claim to champion are having their futures stolen by among others, the wealthy plutocrats who would rather pay the working class minimum wages or under the table. 5) It's conceivable that they are smart enuff to someday wake up and do the math and figure out which party screwed them out of a future. | ||||||
| 94 | Pancho Villa ID: 2131916 Sun, Nov 30, 2014, 11:29 |
the wealthy plutocrats who would rather pay the working class minimum wages or under the table That may be true in some cases, but it's my experience that many business owners hire, retain, and pay very well undocumented workers because they are more dependable and hard working than many of their American counterparts. Of course, the natural reaction to anybody who speaks Spanish, is to assume they're illegal, but that may or may not be the case. My local blind manufacturer has a lady running the shop who has been there for 8 years, speaks very broken English, so I've always just assumed she was here illegally. I recently found out she's had a green card the whole time. There are 6 other ladies working in the shop, none of whom speak more than a few words of English, and I know that Mark and Paula(the owners, hardly wealthy plutocrats)pay the ones who have been there a while a lot more than minimum wage. | ||||||
| 95 | Boldwin ID: 510591420 Sun, Nov 30, 2014, 15:54 | The Chamber of Commerce isn't luring 1/3 of Mexico here to pay them as much or more, and Dems don't care about the blacks whose jobs they are giving away to the Mexicans. | ||||||
| 96 | Pancho Villa ID: 2131916 Sun, Nov 30, 2014, 18:23 |
#95 is incoherent. The population of blacks in my metro is less than 2%, with a good portion of those African refugees employed by the LDS Church. The 99 person Utah legislature(Senate and House) has 68 Republicans. The Dems aren't giving any jobs to Mexicans, but I can assure you that there are a ton of Republican-owned businesses employing undocumented workers. My county is 100% Republican, so I guess you could say that Republicans don't care about whites whose jobs they are giving away to Mexicans, but that would make me sound like an idiot. | ||||||
| 97 | Boldwin ID: 510591420 Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 04:32 |
Don Surber understands the culture war.The hundred billionaires who visited 'President Goldman Sachs' WH don't want you in 'their' America either. It's a war against America. Expect this president to spend the rest of his life, not just the rest of his term, fanning the flames, the riots and cheerleading the takedown of America. He won't be happy until the whole country looks like the wasteland ruins of Detroit. | ||||||
| 98 | Boldwin ID: 510591420 Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 04:44 |
so I guess you could say that Republicans don't care about whites whose jobs they are giving away to Mexicans - PV You are correct. RINO's are part of a corrupt combine along with DEMS who do not care about the America they are sabotaging. It's Illinois writ large. The Republicans may have an historic advantage but the combine still outvotes them. Which is why people like Jeb Bush and Boehner are twisting and turning to figure out a way to pass 'immigration reform' and why they can be counted on not to take down Obamacare even while pretending to, desperately looking for ways to defeat the Tea Party and the mandate of '14. This congress is gonna look like Newt's congress stylistically but it is doubtful they will act like it. McConnell and Boehner are just the opposite and 'someone' is putting them in leadership positions. | ||||||
| 99 | Bean ID: 121011511 Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 11:08 |
From a kid who survived the Hough Riots in Cleveland nearly a half century ago The tension in Cleveland didn't subside until we elected Carl Stokes to be the first black mayor of a major city in the US. I lived in an integrated neighborhood on the West side (Hough is on the mostly black East side of the Cuyahoga River). My pastor was a civil rights leader at this time in Cleveland, very active in the Stokes mayoral campaign. Naturally he advocated turning the other cheek, but the sentiment at home was much different. White Clevelanders were outraged (men) and scared (women and children) by the lawlessness. There goes the neighborhood Alice, time to move to the suburbs. So, the migration begins. | ||||||
| 100 | Pancho Villa ID: 2131916 Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 12:17 |
Let's see if I have this right. A black kid with apparently no respect for law enforcement is killed by police, and those protesting constitute pogroms aimed at the middle class. A white rancher in Nevada with apparently no respect for law enforcement, recruits a mob to confront police with guns at the ready, is an American patriot. You really don't know what you believe beyond what your media heroes tell you. | ||||||
| 101 | Boldwin ID: 510591420 Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 17:30 |
I didn't see Molotov cocktails being thrown at random people and property, or people being ripped out of cars and beaten to death with hammers in Nevada. All I saw was Harry Reid corruptly stomping some little guy out of his livelihood. | ||||||
| 102 | Pancho Villa ID: 2131916 Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 19:40 |
All I saw was Harry Reid corruptly stomping some little guy out of his livelihood. Confirming your political myopia. | ||||||
| 103 | Boldwin ID: 510591420 Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 20:25 |
Speaking of myopia the NYT failed to report the story of the Bosnian man beaten to death with hammers by the protesters, until Instapundit shamed them into including it a day later. Didn't fit their narrative. Four black men beating to death with hammers an unarmed Fergeson man of a different race...not a race crime or even a national story of interest. Defending yourself against a 'gentle giant' raging hulk trying to kill you with your own gun...oooo...raaaaaacist. | ||||||
| 104 | Boldwin ID: 510591420 Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 22:16 |
 Zamir Florida man murdered in Fergeson, father and husband. Kinda makes you feel all warm and fuzzy about the protest. Almost like actually marching in Selma. | ||||||
| 105 | Pancho Villa ID: 2131916 Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 23:16 |
Four black men beating to death with hammers an unarmed Fergeson man of a different race...not a race crime or even a national story of interest. St Louis police detained three suspects aged 15, 16 and 17 - two of them black and one Hispanic. So, not four black men, or do all non-whites look the same to you? Zemir Begic was not a Ferguson man. He lived and was attacked and killed in the Bosnian community of Bevo Mill, on St Louis's southside. Ferguson is a northern suburb, on the complete opposite end of the metro. The info in #103 is easily proven to be self-serving nonsense, especially when previous posts have supported Officer Wilson as justified in defending himself in the altercation with Brown. The fact that law enforcement didn't reply with deadly force when Bundy's thugs pointed weapons at them(which they usually do and justifiably so) doesn't make those thugs patriots or heroes. It makes them lucky. | ||||||
| 106 | Perm Dude ID: 431013412 Mon, Dec 01, 2014, 23:48 | PV: You miss the point. It isn't the facts of the case, but that the NYT didn't report it, see. | ||||||
| 107 | Boldwin ID: 510591420 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 00:20 |
St Louis police detained three suspects aged 15, 16 and 17 - two of them black and one Hispanic. So, not four black men, or do all non-whites look the same to you? - PV The story is unfolding. The story originally was that two black men were in custody and that four men where involved. No mention what race the other two were. It doesn't matter. The four were 'protesters'. I don't despise them because of their race. I despise their protest and their methods. Zemir Begic was not a Ferguson man. He lived and was attacked and killed in the Bosnian community of Bevo Mill, on St Louis's southside. Ferguson is a northern suburb, on the complete opposite end of the metro. - PV Zamir was a Florida resident visiting a Bosnian neighborhood. I believe we will find that the conflict specifically originated as friction between liberal protesters and a local Bosnian community counter-protesting the violence putting them at risk. In case you hadn't heard, the 'protest' isn't limited to the location of Brown's death. This murder very clearly backs up the link I posted with the bullet points. It's a culture war with real casualties. People organizing it [such as Sharpton and many more] should be prosecuted for crossing state lines to incite riots. It is a very real crime. It's in the code. The only thing missing is a functional Justice Dept. | ||||||
| 108 | sarge33rd ID: 390471112 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 00:24 |
pot 91 is so ignorant and full of unabashed bias as to be absurd. The Police chief has stated as a matter of record, that Brown was not stopped relative to the convenience store theft. Wilson claimed serious injury from day 1, including a fracture of the orbital socket. Matter of public record and it was a false claim. That you call for apologies after the DA defended Wilson in front of the grand jury, demonstrates only that you lack integrity. COMPLETELY. | ||||||
| 109 | Pancho Villa ID: 2131916 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 00:27 |
And guess which media outlet led the way in misleading the Boldwins of the world so they can work themselves into fits of fury? I'll take Fox News for a hundred, Alex. The headline: Pack of teens beats man to death near Ferguson From the accompanying article: The horrific attack occurred in southwest St. Louis, just 20 miles from Ferguson Just 20 miles? Twenty miles in a metro area is not 'near' by any stretch of the imagination. For instance, the distance between JFK airport and Hoboken, NJ is 20 miles. From O'Hare to Cicero is 20 miles. If someone from Hoboken told you they live near JFK, you would think them an idiot. | ||||||
| 110 | Perm Dude ID: 431013412 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 00:40 |
Any "developments" to this story are just making the Wacky Right Talking Points look stupider and stupider: Family told the newspaper that Begic had come to the United States from Bosnia with his family in 1996 and eventually settled in Iowa. Begic moved to St. Louis a few months ago and married Mujkanovic, whose family lives in St. Louis. source A tragedy, stretched beyond recognition by those who simply cannot think beyond the talking points spoon fed to them. | ||||||
| 111 | Pancho Villa ID: 2131916 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 00:40 |
#107 Do you really think researching after the fact lends any credibility to your nonsense? You twice identified him an a Ferguson man(misspelled btw), and made sure to add unarmed Ferguson man each time in a feeble attempt to make a connection. As an aside, it was I who brought up Sharpton as race baiting and inciting violence initially in #90. You're late to the party. | ||||||
| 112 | weykool ID: 21012423 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 09:29 |
I worked with someone who was shot and killed in the Rodney King LA riots. He was actually in Long Beach which isnt even in the same county as LA. But only an idiot would try to make an argument that he wasnt killed in the LA riots because technically he wasnt in LA. It seems pretty clear the man was beaten to death as a result of the protests/violence coming out of Ferguson. Parse away if it makes you feel better. | ||||||
| 113 | Pancho Villa ID: 2131916 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 09:56 |
Long Beach which isnt even in the same county as LA. Long Beach is in Los Angeles County. | ||||||
| 114 | weykool ID: 3294615 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 15:17 |
My bad. The point which seems to escapes you is that its further away than 20 miles. | ||||||
| 115 | biliruben ID: 105572020 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 16:14 | No it isn't. | ||||||
| 116 | biliruben ID: 105572020 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 16:15 | But I don't think that's your point either. | ||||||
| 117 | Pancho Villa ID: 2131916 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 18:14 |
The point is, was there widespread looting, arson and murder in any area of St Louis beside Ferguson since the release of the grand jury info? Apparently there was one (currently) unsolved murder in Ferguson. There is nothing to connect the tragedy in Bevo Mill to the Ferguson situation, except it's convenient for those who are determined to promote the culture war with real casualties by saying "LOOK!! Black people murdering white people!" Or to actually quote Boldwin, The four were 'protesters'. I don't despise them because of their race. I despise their protest and their methods. Murdering, looting and arson aren't protest. Those who committed those crimes need to be differentiated from the the protestors who didn't break any laws, which, outside of a few blocks in Ferguson, is almost all of them. This is in huge contrast to the LA riots of 92 following the acquittal of the officers who beat Rodney King. The rioting was widespread throughout much of Los Angeles County, including Long Beach Three hundred forty fires were set, 1 person died, 361 were injured and 1,200 people were arrested in the worst civil disorders in the history of Long Beach. But residents watching on television for news of their city found mostly the flames of Los Angeles, 20 miles north. My sympathies to Weykool, your friend being the only person who died in the 92 LA riots in Long Beach. | ||||||
| 118 | weykool ID: 21012423 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 21:02 |
Police today announced the arrests of seven Long Beach residents in connection with the death of Mr. Haines, 32 years old, who was pulled from his motorcycle and shot on the night of April 30. Bandwagon of Vandalism Matt Haines was a mechanic working in Long Beach. He and his cousin we on the way to help a friend who happened to be a black female. They were pulled off their motorcycle and beaten before someone pulled out a gun and stuck it under Matt's helmet and blew his brains out. His cousin was able to escape but with some severe injuries. RIP Matt Haines. | ||||||
| 119 | Pancho Villa ID: 2131916 Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 11:48 |
I guess it's easy to say wrong place, wrong time, but driving down the road minding your own business should never be the wrong place. But the level of crime associated with the LA riots as well as the spread of lawlessness beyond the flashpoint of South Central LA so dwarfs Ferguson as to make any comparison irrelevant, although comparing incidents might be relevant. In LA, you have video of a somewhat scrawny Rodney King, completely defenseless, being brutalized by 4 police. That fact that the 4 officers were acquitted has a real basis for outrage. In Ferguson, there is no video of the shooting, but there is a video of a physically intimidating Michael Brown having no problem using his size to intimidate and threaten a store owner while committing a petty theft in his store. In my eyes, that goes a long way in defining who Michael Brown is, whether Officer Wilson was aware of the confrontation or not. Rather than the 'gentle giant' some would have you believe, he appears to be a person who has no problem using his intimidating physical presence to break the law. I would have expected a higher level of outrage from the Trayvon Martin case than the Michael Brown shooting. | ||||||
| 120 | Khahan ID: 9114410 Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 11:04 |
I would have expected a higher level of outrage from the Trayvon Martin case than the Michael Brown shooting Honestly I expect a higher level of outrage at Eric Garner. There are actually 2 videos of his incident for the public to see. At the same time, the protests in NYC have been pretty peaceful which is good. Outrage or not there is no justification for any of the riots in Ferguson. None at all. Whether they spilled over to a district 20 miles away or burned down a store right in the middle of Ferguson - there is no cause for what is happening there. | ||||||
| 121 | biliruben ID: 561162511 Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 11:58 | Well, no specific cause. There is plenty of historical cause, for which Brown was a flash point, appropriate or not. | ||||||
| 122 | Khahan ID: 9114410 Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 15:42 |
Well, no specific cause For why he was a flashpoint? Yeah, there's a cause. At the risk of sounding Boldwinesque - the cause was agenda-driven media. They wanted a new darling headline to generate revenue from. The other cause was Al Sharpton. That's why the Brown case became the flashpoint. | ||||||
| 123 | biliruben ID: 105572020 Thu, Dec 04, 2014, 17:21 | So you are stating there were no communinity actions until the media arrived? | ||||||
| 124 | Bean ID: 121011511 Fri, Dec 05, 2014, 18:13 |
Beanstradamus prediction back in <71>: Oh, and here is my predicition. He will be found innocent, there will be looting in the streets, which will enrich the looters, who will happily tell you it was just their way of protesting the awful miscarriage of justice. The cops will have to enforce a mild form of marshall law, and the cycle will repeat itself until eventually the masses get the fugging message that they cannot act criminally and expect us to look the other way or make excuses for their criminal behavior. Excuse me while I hit the snooze button again. It's like predicting the plot of a broadcast television movie, too easy. | ||||||
| 126 | Seattle Zen ID: 301361318 Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 11:52 |
Ferguson's law enforcement practices are shaped by the City's focus on revenues rather than public safety needs. That's just one of the many problems the Department of Justice displayed in its report on Ferguson, Missouri. Read the whole story, it's seriously outrageous. | ||||||
| 127 | Bean ID: 14147911 Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 13:15 |
Finally, YOUR Federal government has ruled. No recommendations of firing that I saw. No name naming of any sort. Seems they tried to lay blame on inadequate tax revenues forcing the city to use ticketing as a source of income. They conclude that the lack of diversity in the PD and city government is a root cause of the friction between cops and black residents. So, what starts out as a murder investigation results in a recommendation to provide jobs for minorities. Someone suggested that jobs for black residents was the real issue in Ferguson. Well, at least three or four will get a job out of this. The investigators do not offer a way to pay for these new employees or recommend who should be fired to make room in the budget for them. They don't recommend any new sources of revenue when the cops stop writing so many tickets and lower the fines and slow their role in collection. These hard choices will be for the city administration and Ferguson voters to figure out. Don't mistake my angle on the DoJ's recommendations as a condemnation. They've done all they can without cutting the legs out from under Ferguson's LEOs in maintaining the peace. Will be interesting to revisit this in a year. | ||||||
| 128 | Seattle Zen ID: 301361318 Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 13:37 |
They've done all they can without cutting the legs out from under Ferguson's LEOs in maintaining the peace. What a load of crap. Fining people for parking and/or a long litany of stupid things and then jailing them for being late on one payment is the polar opposite of "keeping the peace". The only logical conclusion one can make from reading about Ferguson's law enforcement, from both a conservative or a progressive viewpoint, is the city would be a lot safer without any law enforcement. | ||||||
| 129 | Bean ID: 14147911 Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 13:46 |
<128> SZ, do you have a problem with what the DoJ is saying, or with what I am saying? I just detect anger, if I was an LEO, I might have to restrain you. You said: "the city would be a lot safer without any law enforcement." Are you an anarchist or would you like to rephrase? | ||||||
| 130 | Seattle Zen ID: 301361318 Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 14:01 |
Yeah, it's not against the law to be angry, but that doesn't stop LEO from taking that opportunity to restrain... it's your notion that provoked my ire. I'm not an anarchist, I just call them as I see them. | ||||||
| 131 | Bean ID: 14147911 Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 14:25 |
Well, the DoJ has no authority to tell the residents how to behave. If they did, I think they may have a few things to say to them as well. This is still a crime riddled neighborhood, the cops have their work cut out for them. The report gives the black residents the ammunition they need to affect a change there. I hope they don't squander it with attempts at settling a score or promoting violent protests. They're going to have to register to vote and then show up at the polls, if they don't want to look like much more than whiners and deadbeats to their white resident counterparts though. That's how its done in this country, in case some have forgotten. Like I said, this will be interesting to re-visit in a year. | ||||||
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