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Subject: Closing of Gitmo is Pandering to the Left
Posted by: Jag
- [280452215] Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 23:34
Why is the closing of Gitmo so important to Liberals? Why do they not care, that if released, many will kill Americans? They know 61 of those released have already returned to fighting. Why is it so important to them, that one of the vile leaders of Al Queda was waterboarded? The answer is... it is NOT important to them or anyone else. It was just another way to attack the Bush administration. Even the Great Uniter felt it was necessary to comment on this in his address, eventhough nobody gives a damn, but the Far-left. Grats Liberals, you succeeded in killing a few more soldiers and nothing else. |
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| 152 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820
Fri, Jan 08, 2010, 18:34
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Do you guys actually imagine if Sarge was in military intelligence he would be giving miranda warnings to captured POW's? Do you guys think the CIA treated spies caught retrieving a dead drop to a miranda warning? Blowing up a plane al qaeda style is much more than a criminal act. It is unconventional warfare. It's conduct was not covered by the Geneva conventions nor do the US Constitution protections for citizens directly apply to foreign unconventional warriors.
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| 153 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820
Fri, Jan 08, 2010, 18:40
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And for the record the Geneva conventions were an incentive for troops to behave within certain boundaries so that they would be rewarded by being themselves treated in a less barbaric manner. Rewarding people who are deliberately flouting those rules, with those rewards, actually makes the world less civilized, not moreso.
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| 154 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Fri, Jan 08, 2010, 19:19
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Offering no incentive for the other side to act civilized which violating moral rules is a recipe for anarchy and chaos.
We should act morally because it is within us to do so and our moral behavior is not dependent upon others (you know--the whole basis of "Christianity" thing). We don't "reward" bad behavior when we act with moral behavior (just as we don't "reward" children when we don't smack them across the face with a belt every time they do wrong).
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| 155 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157
Fri, Jan 08, 2010, 21:20
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Blowing up a plane al qaeda style is much more than a criminal act. It is unconventional warfare. It's conduct was not covered by the Geneva conventions nor do the US Constitution protections for citizens directly apply to foreign unconventional warriors.
I think Baldwin is 100% correct on this one.
I don't think it violates any moral rules to classify airline suicide bombers as enemy combatants. It's a completely different dynamic than holding those who have some kind of unspecified relations with the Taliban or even Al Qeada in Gitmo without charges year after year.
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| 156 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 03:15
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And I completely agree with PV's every word on that. Kumbaya
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| 157 | sarge33rd
ID: 3302197
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 08:21
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Do you guys actually imagine if Sarge was in military intelligence he would be giving miranda warnings to captured POW's?
Of course not. They weren't being charged with a a crime. They were captured, and treated IAW Geneva Conventions. However as an MP, when we detained an individual, we most certainly did Mirandize them at the time/point of detention.
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| 158 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 09:25
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when we detained an individual An American, you mean. If I were an enemy combatant being taken in by Sarge I'd be a lot more worried about getting to the stockade alive than whether I got mirandized or not.
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| 159 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 10:13
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Jose Padilla is (and was) and American citizen.
It should be noted that no one has been declared an enemy combatant since 2003.
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| 160 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 10:20
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PV - I don't think it violates any moral rules to classify airline suicide bombers as enemy combatants. It's a completely different dynamic than holding those who have some kind of unspecified relations with the Taliban or even Al Qeada in Gitmo without charges year after year.
Baldwin - And I completely agree with PV's every word on that.
so why are wasting money keeping Gitmo open?
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| 161 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 12:40
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I don't know the quality of military justice across the board at Gitmo. I know there have been some terrible examples of people held without justification and many many people who were released and went directly into al qaeda operations. To me the latter signifies that they were where they belonged when they were in gitmo. To liberals who are always on the lookout for why they hate us, Gitmo must be the reason. Liberals are just wrong about that. Volumes could be written and have been written making it clear why rich muslim kids from western universities and reeling from the nihilistic non-sense they are taught there, end up going back to their roots but with a whole new violent twist. Gitmo isn't building them. A confluence of the spirit and philosophies of the modern world, Saudi financed wahabi indoctrination, impotent rage and emasculation over the place of the moslem world in the current age, and Koranic end-times prophesies have infinately more to do with their motivations than does Gitmo.
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| 162 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 12:53
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if you are wrongly imprisoned, and held indefinitely for no particular reason other than your religion or skin color or some possibly questionable associations, you are going to come out bitter and angry.
and if you've been tortured in the process, you might come out bitter and angry enough to say "yea, wow. i guess what i've been hearing is right. these guys imprison and torture us because we're Muslim. We have to fight this!"
it's human nature.
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| 163 | Mith
ID: 159201318
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 15:01
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I don't think most American liberals deny the narrative in the 2nd paragraph of #161. But I reject the black and white perspective in fashion with modern rightists that there can only be one major factor for why so many released from gitmo joined the fight.
I don't see how you can reject the notion that falsely imprisoning hundreds or thousands of muslims, some held for years without ever being charged, is plenty enough to convert moderate muslims to the brink of jihad, and those already on the brink to active extremism.
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| 164 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 17:43
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But I reject the black and white perspective in fashion with modern rightists that there can only be one major factor for why - MITH I listed five.
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| 165 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 18:12
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True. Sloppy of me. But that doesn't change the greater point in the second paragraph of 163.
You're still the one with the blinders on, not me.
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| 166 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 18:39
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The taliban and their brethren are more a threat to the average moderate Muslim than they are to us. More than a few Egyptians would ship the muslim brotherhood to Gitmo if they could.
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| 167 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 18:58
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True or not, I don't believe that challenges my greater point.
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| 168 | sarge33rd
ID: 42050920
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 21:50
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re 158:
Since you seem to want to make this personal...
No, I dod not mean an American. I said, and I meant, an INDIVIDUAL. As an MP in Germany, my jurisdiction extended to both on base ond in the American housing area. German nationals would often be in the area. If there was cause to detain, then we did so. ALWAYS, MIRANDIZING immediately. (Even though German Law has no such requirement and in fact in Germany, the accused is presumed guilty and must prove innocence. Afterall, if you weren't guilty, then you wouldnt have been 'arrested', right?)
As for your second comment re what you would be worried about. On what factual basis do you make that kind of slanderous statement? The only way I can see to interpret it, is that you figure I'd kill a POW out of no other reason than boredom.
Either retract, and grow up a little bit Baldy; or take your biased, arrogant, obnoxious self elsewhwere. That kind of thing, is precisely what the new conduct requirements are intended to put a halt to.
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| 169 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 07:49
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1) In war soldiers are far less likely than is commonly presumed, to accept a surrender, forgo their natural urge for vengence for their fallen comrades and assume the duty of supporting POWS until they can be conducted to the rear for imprisonment. It's not pretty but it's the truth. 2) I know someone who actually said that when they were a soldier they enjoyed being the one who decided who lived and died. I just connect the dots.
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| 170 | sarge33rd
ID: 4908127
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:08
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Have you ever been in a combat zone? No. So dont tell me what some study, conducted by some academic; claims to be the mindset of those in a combat zone. Compared to "been there, done that", I dont put much weight into something contradictory to what I have seen with my own eyes.
Said they 'enjoyed' it, or said they were good at it? Dont mistake the two as being synonymous.
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| 171 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:14
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I remember distinctly that you said that line very early in your poliboard life. No I am not going to research it for the next 4 hours to prove it. I clearly remember it. It made a big impression on me at the time.
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| 172 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:18
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2) I know someone who actually said that when they were a soldier they enjoyed being the one who decided who lived and died.
and i know THREE people (two of my brothers, who served in the Israeli army; and one of my closest friends, who served in Afghanistan and Iraq and various other locales since 1991) who absolutely HATED being the person who made that decision.
being forced to make that decision sent one fleeing all the way from Israel to rural Canada, and has made the other loathe the weekends he has to go on duty. to him, the worst thing in the world is seeing someone fiddling with the fence around their compound at night, and being forced to decide whether to shoot that shadowy figure or not.
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| 173 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:23
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I didn't say it was a majority opinion. By no means. I said I remember Sarge saying he felt that way at the time.
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| 174 | sarge33rd
ID: 4908127
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:24
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No Baldy. What I most likely said, wast that it was part of my job....that I was good at my job...and that I enjoyed my job.
ALL jobs, have parts you enjoy and parts you dont. Taking anothers life...is not and should not; be easy. Nor, should it be something one 'enjoys' doing.
I probably also said, that it was no small part in my abandoning the teachings of the church. In that my job, put me in the position of making those decisions and in affect 'playing gawd'. Apparently, THAT didnt make an impression on you, as you have repeatedly over the years made weak attempts at insulting my non-religious position. Now, you take my words and twist them in another weak effort to belittle me.
Grow up Baldy. You are not the center of the world, you are not "all knowing" and you are not correct in your current posturing.
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| 175 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 08:35
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I wasn't paraphrasing. I remember that exact position.
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| 176 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 15:30
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murder not suicide not sure if anyone saw this or not.
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| 177 | Boldwin
ID: 26451820
Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 17:30
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Sounds like the waterboarding goes lethal now and then. But why all at once like that? Someone fed the Feds a juicy whopper and the interogators went Dirty Harry to figure it out?
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| 178 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Sun, Jun 13, 2010, 12:30
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Government continues to argue for the indefinite holding of Gitmo detainees. Because it doesn't know what else to do, it seems.
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| 179 | Boldwin
ID: 103311210
Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 20:31
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This is what happens when an administration is more interested in prosecuting CIA interrogators than in questioning captured top al qeada leaders.
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| 180 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 20:36
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From the article: ""The CIA is out of the detention and interrogation business"
Good.
And to anticipate the squeal from the Far Right: Yes, I would rather a terrorist go free than continue to hold for years, without charges, hundreds of people in jails in Gitmo and in shadow jails around the world. It is wrong.
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| 181 | Boldwin
ID: 233241222
Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 23:24
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So you think we shouldn't interrogate the guy in the link in #179? You are *censored*.
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| 182 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 23:40
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I didn't say that. Surely you aren't deliberately biased against understanding my point by trying to insert your own?
The United States should get out, and stay out, of the torture business. It is an evil road. And we have no right lecturing anyone on "American exceptionalism" while we practice it. Particularly since we do so badly at it.
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| 183 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916
Tue, Apr 12, 2011, 23:40
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This is what the director of the CIA’s Counter-Terrorism Centre from 2004 to 2006 has to say about this administration.
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| 184 | Boldwin
ID: 233241222
Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 12:11
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The United States should get out, and stay out, of the torture business.
Who suggested that the USA should torture the guy?
Do you think it is a mistake not to question him?
Of course it is.
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| 185 | Boldwin
ID: 233241222
Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 12:22
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PV
Direct me to the part where Bush's director of the CIA’s Counter-Terrorism Centre suggests we shouldn't interrogate captured high value al qeada prisoners. Cause I missed that in your link.
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| 186 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 12:49
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You seem to be missing a lot of points here. Let me clarify for you: Saying that the CIA should stop doing what it shouldn't be doing (partially because they are so horrible at it) doesn't mean we should give up.
What's next: sending the Merchant Marine to blockade Tripoli and when they fail we say "guess the terrorists won!"
The CIA isn't a law and order organozation. Never was.
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| 187 | Boldwin
ID: 323371315
Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 16:44
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I think the CIA would be the perfect organization to do it. For the record the absolutely worst way to handle terrorists would be to assign Eric 'friend of terrorists everywhere' Holder to prosecute them.
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| 188 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181
Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 11:46
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When the left does Gitmo
From what I read Anders Breivik faces a maximum of 21 years which is what, less than 3 months per life taken in that prison.
Don't show those photos to the homeless.
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| 189 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421
Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 11:52
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(a) that isnt Gitmo
(b) Norway has the lowest (or damn close to it) rewcitivism rate IN THE WORLD
(c) They incarcerate less than 1/3 the people per 100,000 population that we do.
Maybe, as the evidence suggests, they know something the Right doesnt?
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| 190 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181
Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 12:01
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Don't show those photos to a freemason.
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| 191 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421
Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 12:03
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more to the point...dont show anything to Boldwin. He'll misinterpret and misrepresent it; without shame.
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| 192 | Tree
ID: 41512710
Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 13:10
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he reads WND religiously. it's all he knows. they're the kings of misinterpretations, misrepresentations, lack of research, and flat out lies.
it's all he knows. no one takes unrelated things and attempts to relate them, making him look silly. see Winehouse, Amy for a recent example.
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| 193 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279
Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 13:21
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"From what I read Anders Breivik faces a maximum of 21 years which is what, less than 3 months per life taken in that prison."
On a serious note, you might want to read up on forvaring.
WARNING: May not totally fit with your preconceived notions of Scandinavia = liberal and liberal = bad, therefore causing your head to explode.
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| 194 | Tree
ID: 41512710
Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 13:33
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wow. nice catch there DWetz!
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| 195 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181
Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 17:51
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Yeah, every country has that sort of provision for the criminally insane.
It worries me when liberals are the ones making that call.
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| 196 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421
Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 19:14
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Why B? With a recitivism rate that SHOULD be the envy of the world. an incarceration rate lass than 1/3 of ours......what is it you fear exactly? Being proven WRONG perhaps?
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| 197 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181
Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 19:35
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Well Eric Holder for one thing. Leading supplier of trained taliban terrorists. Slightly used.
Liberals in charge of incarcerating terrorists scare me.
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| 198 | DWetzel
ID: 31111810
Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 23:07
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Pretty sure your boy Reagan was the leading supplier to Taliban terrorists.
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| 199 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181
Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 00:25
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The enemy of my enemy.
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| 200 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421
Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 00:33
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lol THAT convenient excuse has worked SO well huh B? I mean really, where DID Osama get his equipment? Oh yeah...from us.
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| 201 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181
Fri, Jul 29, 2011, 01:55
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It doesn't disturb me in the least that the taliban beat the russians using stingers.
It does concern me that al qeada 9/11 'pilots' [including Atta] associated with veterans of the afghan/russia war were hanging around [CIA] Huffman Aviation in Venice Florida before 9/11 being trained there and looking for all the world like CIA assets.
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