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0 Subject: Death Panels and Rationing

Posted by: Boldwin
- [37522413] Mon, Aug 24, 2009, 16:35

Economist Martin Feldstein, appointee to Obama's 'President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board' spills the beans in the WSJ 8/18/09.
Economist Martin Feldstein is probably coming as close as an Obama advisor can to letting the country know that a death panel may be on its way. Feldstein was appointed by President Obama to the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board.

In Wednesday's WSJ, Feldstein writes:
The White House Council of Economic Advisers issued a report in June explaining the Obama administration's goal of reducing projected health spending by 30% over the next two decades. That reduction would be achieved by eliminating "high cost, low-value treatments," by "implementing a set of performance measures that all providers would adopt," and by "directly targeting individual providers . . . (and other) high-end outliers."
Got that, "eliminate high cost, low value treatments"? Do you think that means a 20 year old youth with a broken leg who has many tax paying years ahead of him, or Grandma, where it is decided that it just isn't worth the cost to keep her alive through one more Christmas?

So how exactly will "they" decide what is "high cost, low value"?

Feldstein spills the beans on this also:
The president has emphasized the importance of limiting services to "health care that works." To identify such care, he provided more than $1 billion in the fiscal stimulus package to jump-start Comparative Effectiveness Research (CER) and to finance a federal CER advisory council to implement that idea. That could morph over time into a cost-control mechanism of the sort proposed by former Sen. Tom Daschle, Mr. Obama's original choice for White House health czar. Comparative effectiveness could become the vehicle for deciding whether each method of treatment provides enough of an improvement in health care to justify its cost.
Got that? That's a medical decider treatment panel, a death panel, if you will. This is exactly what nut job Peter Singer is advocating. It's all about QALY. It's about Singer designing equations to determine who lives and who dies. This is exactly what he wrote in New York Times Magazine, just weeks ago:
As a first take, we might say that the good achieved by health care is the number of lives saved. But that is too crude. The death of a teenager is a greater tragedy than the death of an 85-year-old, and this should be reflected in our priorities. We can accommodate that difference by calculating the number of life-years saved, rather than simply the number of lives saved. If a teenager can be expected to live another 70 years, saving her life counts as a gain of 70 life-years, whereas if a person of 85 can be expected to live another 5 years,then saving the 85-year-old will count as a gain of only 5 life-years. That suggests that saving one teenager is equivalent to saving 14 85-year-olds.
After they kill off Grandmas, they are going after the quadriplegics. Here's Singer again:
How can we compare saving a person’s life with, say, making it possible for someone who was confined to bed to return to an active life? We can elicit people’s values on that too. One common method is to describe medical conditions to people — let’s say being a quadriplegic — and tell them that they can choose between 10 years in that condition or some smaller number of years without it. If most would prefer, say, 10 years as a quadriplegic to 4 years of nondisabled life, but would choose 6 years of nondisabled life over 10 with quadriplegia, but have difficulty deciding between 5 years of nondisabled life or 10 years with quadriplegia, then they are, in effect, assessing life with quadriplegia as half as good as nondisabled life. (These are hypothetical figures, chosen to keep the math simple, and not based on any actual surveys.) If that judgment represents a rough average across the population, we might conclude that restoring to nondisabled life two people who would otherwise be quadriplegics is equivalent in value to saving the life of one person, provided the life expectancies of all involved are similar.

This is the basis of the quality-adjusted life-year, or QALY, a unit designed to enable us to compare the benefits achieved by different forms of health care...If a reformed U.S. health care system explicitly accepted rationing, as I have argued it should, QALYs could play a similar role in the U.S
So what are the chances of this type rationing that Singer is calling for actually occurring? Here's Obama advisor Feldstein, again:
Although administration officials are eager to deny it, rationing health care is central to President Barack Obama's health plan. The Obama strategy is to reduce health costs by rationing the services that we and future generations of patients will receive.
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163Boldwin
      ID: 18627821
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 09:31
"It is not a question of examining whether particular cancer doctors or cancer specialists are better in different countries.

"It's the overall system and how people are channelled through it, to optimal treatment."
This is an admission from the marxist BBC. They deserve a lot less patience and respect than the BBC will give them.
164biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 09:49
As someone who as tried it, it nearly impossible to do anything but hopelessly flawed cancer morbidity and mortality rate comparisons between countries. These ecological comparisons are so difficult because most cancers have large genetic and environmental components which effect both the risk and virulence. Countries have large variation in the genetic make-up of their populace as well as large variations in environmental exposures (like diet, smoking rates etc...). They also have vastly different screening programs and even sometimes different defintions of in-situ vs. stage 1 cancer.

You might be better off looking at intermediate outcomes, but since that is really what you are speculating might be the problem (should we be treating prostate cancer as aggressively as we are? Does the PSA do more harm than good?), that is also problematic.

Generally, I put almost no stock in ecologic cancer studies.
165Boldwin
      ID: 18627821
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 09:54
Do a little google search for how Britain screens for bowel cancer.
166biliruben
      ID: 59551120
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 10:12
The effectiveness (as opposed to the efficacy) of colorectal cancer screening is unclear.

Reading through the British guidelines for recommended screening, they seem perfectly reasonable.
167Boldwin
      ID: 18627821
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 10:13
BTW if they should catch you sneaking off to get the medicine you really need but that they deny you, they cut you off from all medical care.
168Boldwin
      ID: 18627821
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 10:16
bili

They didn't even have a bowel cancer screening in place before 2000. They routinely deny tests for many forms of cancer, tests common in this country claiming as an excuse that the tests aren't good enuff yet. Good enuff in better medical systems tho.
169PV on hole 10
      ID: 18621911
      Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 12:21
Where in 162 does it state that treatment or diagnosis is withheld until a cancer patient dies to save money?
170Boldwin
      ID: 54651104
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 05:55
It says their system sucks and that's why cancer patients are likely to die unnecessarily.

Why does their system suck?

Waiting lists to save money on the number of doctors. [and discourage people from even bothering to get checked out]

Expensive drugs disallowed.

Treatment delayed especially for elderly and disabled.

Equipment delayed and missing, supplies delayed and missing, poor and unclean facilities.

Each medical center gets penalized the closer they get to doing the best medicine they know how to do.

171Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 09:01
Rather than address my question in #169, #170 simply adds a new collection of accusations, none of which are supported in the #162 link, which is presented as "perfectly accurate."

The jist of the article is that the UK is narrowing the gap with the other countries in the study(Canada, Australia, Denmark, Norway, Sweden).

Sara Hiom, of Cancer Research UK, said while it was encouraging to see survival rates for cancer improving, the differences between countries needed examination.

"When the government refreshes its cancer strategy, it's vital to retain a focus on early diagnosis and on improving equitable access to treatment."


Improving equitable access to treatment is an element every health system should strive for, including the US. But when someone inserts the term the marxist BBC into the conversation, it's quite obvious that an intelligent and honest discussion of the issue isn't in the cards.


172Boldwin
      ID: 54651104
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 21:16
Are you honestly suggesting the BBC doesn't lean hard hard left?
173Boldwin
      ID: 54651104
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 21:18
And when they admit their system is just the worst...

...maybe you shouldn't be holding theirs up like a roadmap to paradise.
174sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 21:59
no, mucgh better to hold up our own system, where people DIE because they cant afford insurance and therefore dont get tests done and thus dont get the diagnosis until the cancer has reached a stage beyond which it can be cured.

Your free market ignorance B, is truly getting old.
175Boldwin
      ID: 54651104
      Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 22:30
No one is claiming perfection.
176sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 12:46
Repub;licans speak often of "Tort Reform" and how the current system adds undue burdens to the cost of practicing medicine. Allow me please, to present the "flip side":

1983, a personal friend of mine is medi-vacced from Germany and since she and I are not family, the Army wont tell me where they took her. Fast forward, July 2010...I finally find her, after an unending 27 year search.

1 Neuro-surgery performed by VA in the fall of 1983. Post Op, the surgean tells her and her family, "We blew it. You'll have to endure this again and possibly a 3rd time". Post op after 3rd trip into her skull, she enters a coma. That lasts 3 months. Comes out of the cvoma, quadraplegic and unable to speak. Esophagus is paralyzed in addition to her extremities.


SHE CAN NOT FILE SUIT FPOR MALPRACTICE. She was US Army. GI's, are legally deemed "Government Property", NOT government employees. Property, has no legal standing for filing suit.

Surgeon ADMITS to the patient AND the family "we blew it",
Patient spends the rest of her life in a wheelchair,
Patient has more meds in her kitchen cabinet than some pharmacies stock (I kid you not),
Patient has no legal recourse...none. Gets to live in pain, 24/7.


You want tort reform? How about giving those who wear the uniform, the right to seek compense when the victims of malpractice/incompetence?
177Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 16:17
Why are some professions supposed to be able to guarantee perfection? Do you believe they deliberately screwed up? Do you believe the army employs unskilled doctors?

Digging around in a brain is dangerous. Things can go wrong. I have a dear friend who died because the cancer was wrapped around too much nerve and blood vessel for surgery to be doable. Had they been willing to risk it I wouldn't be looking to sue them if they couldn't beat the odds.

It's a sad sad story but bankrupting her doctors or the country isn't the answer. I'm sure the country could be a less tight-fisted to vets.

Seems the government isn't willing to put themselves thru the impossible legal hell the rest of us are at risk for.
178DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 17:19
Do you think someone should be able to sue because the surgeon cut off the wrong limb in amputation surgery? Or is that a "oops, heh, well, stuff goes wrong, too bad so sad" issue for you as well? Under what you are proposing, you wouldn't be able to sue for that.
179DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 17:21
Examples: link

That study concluded that there are 1,300 to 2,700 wrong-site procedures annually in the United States.

Should these people be allowed to sue? I mean, surgery's complicated, that whole left-right thing is tough.
180sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 18:16
re 177...when the leader of the sutrgical team, stands in your room and TELLS you..."We blew it"; is there really any remaining room to question whether or not a claim is legit?

181sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 18:30
let me add too:

Do you believe the army employs unskilled doctors?

Unskilled? No. LESSER skilled? Abso-fvcking-lutely.
182weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 18:53
Very sad story Sarge.
Unfortunately we will be looking at far more of these sad stories due to Obamacare.
My sister-in-law is a nurse and she is telling me almost every doctor she talks with will be retiring once the plan kicks in.
Where will we find qualified replacements?
The cut in pay doctors will be facing wont pay for the student loans for potential new recruits.
Obamacare: Costs more/expect less.
183DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 19:09
Citations please for basically everything you just said.

Anyway, perhaps the medical school costs will come down in a market where they are in less demand, which is always a good thing. Less government-subsidized and backed loans = smaller government! We win!
184weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 19:25
So now you need a citation for simple economics?
If you pay people less for something you will get less qualified individuals.

Medical school costs will go up not down. There will be more of a demand for doctors due to a higher demand for services and the need to replace early retirements.
(Simple economics)
Unfortunately those applying will be less qualified. (Citation already provided).
More governtment loans = bigger government. We all lose.
185DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 19:48
Um, why would people spend huge amounts of money to go into medical school if they expect to get a negative return on their investment and won't be able to repay the loan? Isn't that "simple economics"?
186Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 19:57
We'll just have to hire illegal aliens to do the work Americans won't.
187DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 20:00
*shrug* You're already getting a bunch of foreign (legal) doctors now, because they can get as good an education as we can provide here for a fraction of the cost, and are willing to come here and work for less.

I suppose we could just put barbed wire up and keep the doctors away too. That would be an effective solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
188sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 20:18
re 182; In the past year, I have dated both an RN and an LPN. Neither, has made similar comments to those attributed to your sister-in-law. Not saying this is necessarily so, but it could be she is experiencing a biased sample or persons who are motivated PURELY out of personal greed/ambition.

As for the "cut in pay not paying for student loans", thats not truly relevant anyway. Doctors (followed closely by Lawyers), are the worst profession historically at repaying their student loans.
189Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 20:36
When we said nearly half of U.S. doctors might close their practices or retire early rather than live under the Democrats' health overhaul, we were heavily criticized. The critics, though, were wrong.

Four in nine doctors responding to an IBD/TIPP poll sent out in August 2009 said they "would consider leaving their practice or taking an early retirement" if Congress passed what has become known as ObamaCare. That means as many as 360,000 physicians have plans to be doing something other than treating the growing number of patients in this country.

The doctors also told us — 67% to 22%, with 11% not responding — that they expected fewer students to apply for medical school in the future if the plan became law.

Given these views, it's no surprise that 71% were doubtful that the government would be able to cover the 47 million uninsured Americans with better care at lower costs, which ObamaCare supporters have promised.

Other findings from our poll of 1,376 doctors included: six in 10 agreeing that the Democrats' plan would strip drug companies of the incentives they need to make lifesaving pharmaceuticals, and 65% believing that a government overhaul would lead to lower-quality care for seniors.
------------------------------------------------
Now a Merritt Hawkins survey of 2,379 doctors for the Physicians Foundation completed in August has vindicated our poll. It found that 40% of doctors said they would "retire, seek a nonclinical job in health care, or seek a job or business unrelated to health care" over the next three years as the overhaul is phased in.

Of those who said they planned to retire, 28% are 55 or younger and nearly half (49%) are 60 or younger.

A larger portion (74%) said they plan to make "one or more significant changes in their practices in the next one to three years, a time when many provisions of health reform will be phased in."

In addition to retirement, and finding nonclinical jobs elsewhere, those changes include working part time, closing practices to new patients, employment at a hospital, cutting back on the number of patients and switching to a cash or concierge practice.

Obama doesn't like them much either.
190sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:00
as many as....is an empty, meaningless phrase which allows an astronomically high or low value to follow it. This kind of thing is often used by car dealers....UP TO $7500 GUARANTEED for your trade!!!!!! Guess what? $1.75 IS..."up to" 7500. Just as 113 physicians IS "up tp" 360,000.

Meaningless drivel, devoid of meaningful content, intended to lure in the unwary. PLain and simple. Its a game of semantics, not facts. And you B, are falling for that game, hook-line and sinker.
191Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:02
How many polls do they have to run to satisfy you?
192sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:04
Simple B. I do not for one second, not at al;l, believe that any Doctor whose practice is going well; to give up his/her lucrative career anbd start over doing something in a field unrelated to medicine. IOW, I think its a lie. Its BS, meant to sway the vote.
193weykool
      ID: 343561414
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:18
Sarge:
You can stick your head in the sand and keep hoping it wont happen but there will be a weeding out of good doctors and a replacement with less than good doctors.
There is no doubt in my mind that my sister-in-law is overstating/exagerating her findings some, but there also no doubt that there is some truth there as well.
It may not be a mass retirement in 2014 but over time the quality of doctors and care in this country will see a steady decline.
194sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 21:27
Will some leave? Of course. Will many leave? Possibly, but I doubt it. (Many of course, being a relative term to the total nr of practitioners out there.)

But just as I saw otherwise intelligent people doing REALLY stupid things when the calendar rolled over from 1999 to 2000, out of fear of the "Millenium Bug", so too will wee see otherwise intelligent people make some stupid career choices out of fear over what the Health Reform really does.

To me, getting 2,000,000 PLUS people insured, is more valuable to our society than keeping another 138,783 surgeons on the rolls of their local country clubs.
195Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 22:05
It says 4 in 9 doctors are considering bolting. 44%.... 360,000 / .44 = 818,182.... This must be the total number of doctors. If the poll results were extrapolated over all doctors, then as many as 360,000 may bolt. Not 113. Not up to 360,000, approximately 360,000. In the neighborhood of 360,000. Not in the neighborhood of 113.
196sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 22:07
No B7, it says 4:9 are CONSIDERING bolting. That is why it also says UP TO 360k doctors. I have considered many things in my past, whiwch I did not act upon. Something I think which applies also, to everyone reading this. To say that many are "cocnsidering", is a largely empty numeric.
197Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 23:14
Yes. 360,000 are considering bolting, not 113. That's what I said in lower case. Before Obamacare it was probably 113 considering bolting. Great plan that Obamacare.
198DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 23:50
Yeah, because literally 0% of doctors were not totally in love with their jobs, considering retirement or changing professions. But now 44% are immediately going into fruit-picking. All because of Obamacare.

Really.

Yeah, OK, that makes perfect sense.


199Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Tue, Jul 12, 2011, 23:56
About half those doctors will be of retirement age anyway--so what is the point, exactly? That they will do so because insurance companies aren't reimbursing them enough?
200sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 01:02
re 197...really B7. Are you deliberately being obtuse here? 360k CONSIDER something. How many DO it? I dont give a rats ass, how many of ANY demographic, CONSIDER doing just about ANYTHING.

Wells Fargo Armored Car for ex, has a standard question they ask EVERY applicant. "Have you ever fantasized about robbing an armored car?". If the applicant answers "no", they do not get hired since it is seen as a lie. Virtually EVERYONE has "considered" it at one time or another. SO I honestly, REALLY...DO NOT CARE...how many "consider" leaving the profession. 360k, is a lie, is a falsehood, is a misleading nr, bent and intended to stir fear and panic. It has NOTHING to do with reality.
201Razor
      ID: 33520166
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 05:57
As someone who has a bunch of physicians in their immediate and extended family, I can tell you that as a profession, they have a propensity to exaggerate the future state of medicine. Twenty years ago, they claimed HMO's would commodotize physicians and cut pay in half. Pay went up, as it always has. Now some fraction of doctors are moaning about Obamacare. The state of medicine will be fine, as it always has been. There's a reason why physicians from all over the world come here - our physician pay is by far the highest. I am not at all concerned about their not being enough incentive for physicians to practice or that there will be a mass exodus from the profession. They are just empty threats that get thrown around by physicians to scare the public into staying away from touching their (very substantial) pay.

Besides, what exactly does the new health care law do that would affect physician pay? I'm sure if that if there was anything substantial, it would not have passed.
202Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 08:47
"To me, getting 2,000,000 PLUS people insured, is more valuable to our society than keeping another 138,783 surgeons on the rolls of their local country clubs." - Sarge

To you making sure we all can't find a doctor who will see us sounds like a good and fair idea.

Perfect description of a socialist and a liberal. They live to spread misery all around.
203Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 08:50
Razor

I've met a doctor who quit medicine because they couldn't ethically practice HMO half-measure medicine also.
204Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 09:12
And she wasn't exaggerating.
205Boldwin
      ID: 426151116
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 09:35
Besides, what exactly does the new health care law do that would affect physician pay? I'm sure if that if there was anything substantial, it would not have passed. - Razor

Mindblowing that you can't even imagine what is obvious to most of the country. Such is the power of wishful thinking.

Massively increased red tape.

Having your procedures dictated to you by a government computer instead of your expertise and the specific situation.

Having your pay cut [or penalized] if you provide the right care too often instead of the government approved reduced care.

Obama cut medicade by $500 billion over ten years to pay for Obamacare. In budget negotiations he's offering to cut it further. What does he care? That is money that comes out of doctor's pockets, not his.

Reductions in medicade would mean it doesn't matter what doctors bill them, the government is only going to cut a smaller and smaller check.

You think they are going to let doctors exclude those patients? There will be a price to pay for that if it's even doable.
206Frick
      ID: 5310541617
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 09:57
Boldwin,

Go talk to a doctor or nurse now and see how much independence they have when it comes to what procedures they can perform and in what order. The "free market" insurance companies already place these types of restrictions on doctors.

Standardizing the decisions between all of the insurance companies and Medicare seems like a good method to reduce redtape and costs.

It would also open up a business opportunity for a company to offer insurance with no restictions, but be aware that it would likely be very expensive.
207sarge33rd
      ID: 1964421
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 12:47
202....one of the best recent examples of "chicken little", B has provided for our entertainment.
208Razor
      ID: 31610612
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 15:13
Re: 205. So just made up stuff then. Good.
210Boldwin
      ID: 316571317
      Wed, Jul 13, 2011, 20:24
Because you've looked into it so much more carefully than I have. As if.

The funny thing is that the outrage of Pelosi saying that 'we needed to pass the bill in order to find out what's in it', was just the tip of the iceberg. It's worse than that. It is written ripe for so much abuse that we won't know the full damage for 5-10 years. We do know they've already cut Medicaid. We do know they've set up the mechanisms for ordering doctor treatments meet federal guidelines and not exceed government spending limits. We do know exactly which panel will order that we don't qualify for medical treatment that used to be available and which treatments won't be available to anyone.
212Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 00:51
you've looked into it so much more carefully than I have.

I'm fairly certain you carefully weighed the pros and cons of the legislation for roughly a nanosecond before declaring it a Marxist plot initiated by George Soros and Bill Ayers with the goal of posthumously appointing Saul Alinsky Surgeon General.
213Boldwin
      ID: 166451321
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 11:59
I read it more thoroughly than your congressman.
214DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 12:13
212 and 213 are probably not mutually exclusive, sad to say.
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