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Subject: Deepwater Horizon Explosion
Posted by: Mith
- [482583111] Fri, Apr 30, 2010, 09:10
The spill isn't going away anytime soon so I think a new thread is in order.
A few recent headlines: Health officials order air quality testing after fuel smell blankets metro area The state departments of Health and Hospitals and Environmental Quality said the strong odor blanketing much of coastal Louisiana and the metro New Orleans area is "possibly" the result of the massive oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. The U.S. Interior Department’s Minerals Management Service has postponed next week’s annual luncheon in Houston, which was to extol the safety record of offshore oil drilling.
Jindal is leaning into the Feds to step it up. |
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208 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 14:08
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Fairly major nitpick: Obama was not even in office yet (he was inaugurated in January 2009) when the auto companies got their first bailouts, at least if this is to be believed.
So were they Bush's union buddies too? (Answer: basically, yes.)
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209 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 14:33
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Exactly. Money pays for the stuff to be cleaned up.
who would the government hired to fix the leak? why do you think they were so hands off of BP, because they knew not what to do.
And throwing money at things does not necessary fix or clean up anything. If you have doubts about this see Katrina and Haiti.
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210 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 14:34
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Exactly. Money pays for the stuff to be cleaned up.
who would the government hired to fix the leak? why do you think they were so hands off of BP, because they knew not what to do.
And throwing money at things does not necessary fix or clean up anything. If you have doubts about this see Katrina and Haiti.
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211 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 14:37
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"who would the government hired to fix the leak?"
Any one of a bazillion different environmental cleanup companies on smaller scale projects, and on something like this? I don't know, but I'm not in the business of hiring environmental cleanup companies. Who's doing the cleanup now? That's who I'd probably hire. Clearly it's physically possible to clean it up, because it's being done now.
In the long run, the question is should the people that made the mess clean it up, or should you? If the people that made it can't clean it up, then it falls on the rest of us to either pay for it or live with it--but if they do have the means to clean it up, then they should clean it up (either themselves, or by hiring the people capable of doing it).
I honestly don't know if BP is directly cleaning it up, or if they've hired Acme Oil Spill Cleanup company. I fail to see why it's a relevant question, if indeed you're even asking it.
Also, again, it's silly to compare this to Katrina and Haiti. Natural disasters and man-made disasters are two different things here, people.
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212 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 14:53
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For some companies that are working on the spill now, read: http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/06/18/bp-contractor-army/
And yes, BP is actually hiring basically all of those to do the cleanup--which is, IMO, as it should be. Those calling for the government to "take action" and to "do something" would, I'd presume, be asking the government to hire these companies on your dime instead of on BP's dime. They'd want BP to shoulder all of the profits, and none of the liabilities.
The other sort of company that would need to be hired is one to cap the well in the first place, since it doesn't make sense to clean it up while the oil is still flowing. That would essentially be like drying yourself off while still standing under the shower. It's not very productive.
The company you'd be most likely to want to hire for that is, of course, someone like BP. I suppose we could pay them a bunch of money to patch their well. If you think that's fair, then I have this really awesome money-making scheme I can get you in on the ground floor of.
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213 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 15:23
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who would the government hired to fix the leak
They hire whoever they can. The government is the fixer of last resort.
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214 | Building 7 Leader
ID: 171572711 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 15:49
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Halliburton bought oil clean-up company Boots & Koots 2 weeks before disaster.
This is the main company that cleaned up the Iraq mess, caused by Saddam. I think it's the one Red Adair worked for. We could use him right now.
Note that the cleanup company was bought two weeks before the disaster.
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215 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Jul 22, 2010, 16:00
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Yup. A purchase which was in the works for a few weeks. Good purchase for them.
Note that Boots & Koots doesn't do work on underwater wells.
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216 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 08:48
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#207 Because small businesses are not hiring the policies of the Obama Administration are failing miserably. The stimulus was supposed to keep unemployment at 8%. Obama thinks that he can help small business with more regulation and rules. That's not true. Squeeze a balloon and it pops. Let it go and it floats free and does what its supposed to do.
Healthcare, cap and trade, card check, raising taxes especially on capital are all things businesses are terrified of. Businesses are sitting on nearly 2 trillion dollars of cash. There's a reason for that. That money isn't earning a dime in the bank with interest rates near zero so you'd think deploying would make sense, but they're afraid.
The best thing that could happen to Obama is if conservatives get elected in the fall. They could kill off his bad ideas and work with him on the good ones. Its possible that an Obama / Republican Congress would be as effective as a Clinton / Republican Congress.
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217 | biliruben
ID: 34435239 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 09:04
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Small businesses aren't hiring not because they are all terrified of Obama.
They aren't hiring because there is little demand for their products.
When incomes and employment are down, people don't have money to buy stuff.
We need a job bill to juice demand and get people to work. That and build infrastructure such as a better electrical grid that will sustain growth in innovative power sources going forward.
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218 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 10:02
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"Squeeze a balloon and it pops. Let it go and it floats free and does what its supposed to do."
Your theory is put to the sword by the previous administration, which let the balloon sail free -- and, lest you forget, got us into this mess in the first place.
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219 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 11:03
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Because small businesses are not hiring the policies of the Obama Administration are failing miserably. The stimulus was supposed to keep unemployment at 8%. Obama thinks that he can help small business with more regulation and rules. That's not true. Squeeze a balloon and it pops. Let it go and it floats free and does what its supposed to do.
Let's unpack this, shall we?
Because small businesses are not hiring the policies of the Obama Administration are failing miserably.
The policies of the Administration are intended to stop the bleeding of this recession. The administration has specifically slashed small business taxes, given tax credits to small business for new hires, laid out billions in stimulus money targeted for small business use, and in virtually every piece of legislation they have given breaks to small businesses.
Small businesses, like other businesses, are not hiring because we're in a freaking recession. It has nothing to do with the efforts being made to help them despite the recession.
The stimulus was supposed to keep unemployment at 8%.
The stimulus, passed despite universal GOP resistance, saved about 1.2 million jobs. That's a fact the conservative media likes to ignore, but it is a fact nevertheless. As we muddle through this economic downturn, keep in mind that the unemployment numbers would be much worse if not for the stimulus money. And that would hurt down the line.
The question is: Did the stimulus help or hurt? There is no real question that the stimulus helped keep unemployment from rising even higher.
Obama thinks that he can help small business with more regulation and rules. That's not true. Squeeze a balloon and it pops. Let it go and it floats free and does what its supposed to do.
Nearly all the regulatory schemes being proposed by the Administration is directed at large businesses. They are intended to fill the gap of regulation after the last administration erased, or refused to enforce, regulations on large businesses across many fields.
Small businesses, in fact, are not only immune by statute from much of the regulation being proposed, they are getting tax breaks the large businesses are not getting as well.
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220 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:06
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#217: Government created jobs are temporary jobs. Goose up construction jobs and census hiring all you want but in the winter the construction guy sits at home and the census guy is done in three months.
The private sector is the better deployer of capital and can create permanent jobs. Obama blew the design of the stimulus package. He should've eliminated all taxes on capital instead.
219: We aren't in a recession anymore and haven't been in one for months. We have slow anemic GDP growth and zero job growth and it is because Obama messed up the stimulus package and because businesses are afraid of what comes next. Obama said it would stop unemployment at 8% and he failed miserably. So what if it saved 1.2 million jobs. It was supposed to CREATE jobs.
There is no way to say impartially that the stimulus package was successful as advertised. No way. At all. Not even close.
And when Obama passes regulations that impact large businesses it trickles down to the little guy. Who do you think the large businesses use as sources for parts and services? Or when they lay people off those people aren't buying anything from small businesses.
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221 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:19
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Don't hang your hat on the 1.2 million jobs "saved". Even if that number could be accurately proven out you've got an 800 billion dollar fiasco "saving" 1.2 million jobs. That's 667k per job. That's a little steep.
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222 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:24
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There is no way to say impartially that the stimulus package was successful as advertised. No way. At all. Not even close.
Impartially?
That sentence is destroyed by your Obama messed up the stimulus package and because businesses are afraid of what comes next,
which shows a complete lack of addressing the issue in an impartial manner. Not even close. I have pointed out that my small business, as well as numerous others in similar trades, have and are benefitting from the stimulus package. You've presented nothing except right wing radio talking points, but the reality is varied as to the benefits of the package. It's simply partisan politics to present only the negative aspects, which, admittedly there are many, and I have specifically pinpointed the problems in previous posts. Saying businesses are scared doesn't pinpoint anything.
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223 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:29
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Obama said unemployment wouldn't go over 8%. We're at 10%. It failed. It was a very straightforward numerical metric. Almost like a KPI.
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224 | Razor
ID: 57854118 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:39
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Obama said unemployment wouldn't go over 8%. We're at 10%. It failed.
Obama's prediction was ludicrous, but that should not be the sole factor in determining the success of the stimulus. We could, instead, use the reports from economists showing that the stimulus did indeed save or create new jobs and softened what would have been an even worse recession.
$288 billion of the $787 price tag were tax cuts. Another $250 billion went to horrible things like healthcare and education. You should actually read what's in the stimulus bill before repeating right-wing talking points.
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225 | Pancho Villa
ID: 29118157 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:41
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Obama said unemployment wouldn't go over 8%. We're at 10%. It failed
No offense, but in this forum your recollections aren't given creedence unless backed with actual data and quotes from reliable sources. Given the simplicity of searching the web, it will be easy for you to provide the quotes you're attributing to Obama in their complete context. Then you can discuss being straighforward with some credibility.
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226 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 13:44
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So what if I agree with the right? Are you prejudice against right wingers or something?
And yes when the guy who pushes the stimulus says that it'll do something majorly important and it fails miserably at it then yeah he ought to be held to the fire over it.
I don't care if they spent the stimulus on balloons and lollipops for children. Their design failed.
And at 667k per job "saved" somehow makes me think we could've just hired 8 million people at a total per person cost of 100k and just be done with it. Instead we got an 800 billion dollar boondoggle that has only just indebited us to the Chinese even more.
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227 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 14:03
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There is no way to say impartially that the stimulus package was successful as advertised.
First off, that isn't what I said. I said that the stimulus saved 1.2 million jobs. There is no real argument that the stimulus package saved jobs. The only real arguments being made are:
1. That the numbers of jobs saved wasn't worth the cost;
2. That the Administration's projects of the number of jobs saved/unemployment rate amount doesn't match what was projected in 2008.
Regarding the first, since nearly a third of the stimulus package (including its cost) was in tax cuts, if we are to declare it uneffective then we must also declare the "tax cuts = economic stimulation" model to be ineffective. Anyone on the Right willing to go there? I thought not.
The second point is one of those "does/doesn't match anticipated numbers" which, frankly, is even more removed from good economic analysis, IMO. I'm far more interested in whether the thing is working or not than whether people feel now that it was oversold then and therefore feel disappointment.
And when Obama passes regulations that impact large businesses it trickles down to the little guy.
I'm glad you are backing away from that "Obama is hurting small businesses" canard, since it simply isn't true. I won't deny that there are trickle down effects, but you haven't given any examples of new Obama regulations which negatively impact small business stakeholders, and which have their benefits outweighed by such impacts.
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228 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 15:46
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I'm not backing away from anything Perm Dude.
The stimulus package failed. I'm glad we agree.
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229 | The Left Behind
ID: 66232012 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 15:50
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How do you justify spending 667k per "saved" job?
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230 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 15:52
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On what, exactly, do we agree?
The only thing you've mentioned is that the stimulus package did not reach a goal of 8% unemployment which was put forth by two private economists.
Putting aside the fact that the two economists in question were not in the Administration when that paper came out (and projected 8.8% unemployment, not 8%, in the 4th quarter of 2010, a point in time which has yet to occur), you haven't rebutted any of the many points I've made about Obama's small business policies. You have, however, tried to change the target to large business policies, stating some kind of trickle down effect to prove your point.
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231 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:04
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Wait a minute, I want to make sure I have this straight before I heap ridicule. Are you saying the "8%" number being thrown around by Left Behind was:
A) Not suggested by the actual administration; B) For a time period that hasn't even begun yet, and; C) Not actually 8%, but 8.8%, to start with?
If this is correct, then I take back anything I said about wanting facts and evidence to support claims. If we're just going to be making stuff up as we go, may as well just not bother faking it.
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232 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:13
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To be fair, DW, those two economists were later hired by the Administration. ASAIK (and I'm welcoming a correction here), the Administration itself never projected particular unemployment rate targets. It would be silly to have done so, given the vagaries of that rate as a economic tool. It is like comparing a thermometer with and MRI.
I had a link to a pdf of that paper somewhere I will try to dig out.
My point, in case it wasn't clear, is that the important question as to whether the stimulus is working is not whether the unemployment rate reached this particular target, but whether it kept people in jobs and spending money.
Remember: The stimulus program was designed to get money flowing again, after an extreme credit crunch by banks who suddenly stopped giving loans.
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233 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:23
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fair enough. However, as the old saying goes, two out of three ain't bad (except in this case it really is).
Even if we go pretty far and say they are "the administrations" numbers for the reason you state, fundamentally lying (or, charitably, "misunderstanding") about what the projections WERE is kinda sleazy at best. It's just wrong.
It's one thing to get a future projection wrong by 10%--happens all the time. It's quite another to read the piece of paper that says "the projection is X" and to say "the projection is Y". It's also quite remarkably dishonest to say "the projection is wrong" when the time period of the projection hasn't even happened yet.
I'll charitably assume that Rush Limbaugh or Fox News "accidentally" got it wrong and the "accidental errors" propagated into that post, I guess.
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234 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:25
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Remember: The stimulus program was designed to get money flowing again, after an extreme credit crunch by banks who suddenly stopped giving loans.
It was? If so it failed completely.
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235 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:27
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"My point, in case it wasn't clear, is that the important question as to whether the stimulus is working is not whether the unemployment rate reached this particular target, but whether it kept people in jobs and spending money."
To be semi-fair, the point (if it were honestly made) that the projection was that the stimulus would reduce unemployment by X amount, and the stimulus actually didn't do that, would call into question either the full effect of the stimulus, or the estimation of the starting point, or both.
Given that unemployment numbers aren't exactly reliable in "real time" and aren't finalized until months after the fact, it's easy to see how the latter would happen.
It's also easy to see how the starting point of the projection (which, obviously, was made BEFORE the stimulus took effect) ended up being inaccurate because Bush and his economic policies ran the country into an even bigger crap hole than could be projected at the time.
I'd love to debate the relevance of those, but I don't know if it'll do any good without a time machine to know whether the incorrect future projections are actually incorrect.
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236 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:31
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"Remember: The stimulus program was designed to get money flowing again, after an extreme credit crunch by banks who suddenly stopped giving loans.
It was? If so it failed completely."
1. Uh, no, not completely.
2. The fact that it has failed incompletely (if one measures failure by "things aren't as hunky-dory as they used to be") is down in large measure to the fact that the banks and the economy were in even crappier shape than was estimated. Even AFTER the stimulus, many of the banks were still skating on fairly thin ice. A lot of the larger commercial real estate loans (with rather longer gestation periods of going to hell in a handbasket) hadn't even really hit the banks yet.
It's fundamentally wrong to compare the post stimulus economy to a "healthy" economy. It's like comparing a cancer patient with chemotherapy to a completely cancer-free patient and saying "oh, the chemo is worthless". Try comparing the post-stimulus economy to where things would have been without it. The patient already contracted cancer.
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237 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 16:34
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Completely, boikin? All measurements I've seen (and, again, I'm welcoming correction) is that the numbers across the board look better for the stimulus having been passed than without it. Number of jobs, loans, etc etc all look better.
This doesn't change the fact that the stimulus is, and was, incredibly unpopular. But it has done what it set out to do. And it continues to do so. Hundreds of thousands of families are working jobs right now that they otherwise would not have.
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238 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 546172318 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 19:23
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Stimulus Facts - Mercatus Center - Veronique de Rugy
Stimulus Facts Period 2 (April 7, 2010)
Party Affiliation
For my analysis, I looked at the 435 congressional districts in the United States plus the District of Columbia, but excluded Puerto Rico and foreign stimulus recipients such as Canada and the U.S. Virgin Islands. The average number of awards per district is 148, and the average dollar amount awarded per district is $385,932,979.
In the United States there are 177 districts represented by a Republican and 259 represented by a Democrat. On average, Democratic districts received 1.53 times the amount of awards that Republicans were granted. The average number of awards per Republican district is 112, while the average number of awards per Democratic district is 171.
Democratic districts also received 2.65 times the amount of stimulus dollars that Republican districts received $122 billion vs. $46 billion). Republican districts also received smaller awards on average. The average dollars awarded per Republican district is $26 million, while the average dollars awarded per Democratic district is about $472 million. In total, Democratic districts received 73 percent of the total stimulus funds awarded and Republican districts received 27 percent of the total amount awarded.
Other Political Variables
Regression analysis (ordinary least squares) was used to explore the predictive power of the various indicators described in the section above. The political variables considered here included the district representative‘s political party, tenure in office, leadership position, membership on the appropriations committee, and voting in the most recent presidential elections, as well as the inclusion of the state‘s capital within that district. The analysis finds that a district‘s representation by a Republican decreases the stimulus funds awarded to it by 27.9 percent. This result underscores the findings from the previous Stimulus Facts report.
This effect is statistically significant at the p < .015 level (see table 1). The regression analysis does not seek to explain (nor does it explain) precisely how funds were allocated (adjusted R2 = .400). That would require a more complete dataset than has been used for these results or is available through Recovery.gov. That is, I wanted to know how much political and economic factors could explain the distribution of funds. That is different from saying I want to know all of the factors that control the spending of the funds. I do not have that data nor is it particularly interesting for this purpose. I have confidence that these estimates of the selected indicators are robust, although I do not know how other, yet unknown, indicators may have influenced stimulus funding decisions. The political calculation shows that there is no statistically significant effect of a district‘s voting outcome in the 2008 presidential elections.
Concretely, while $109 billion has been awarded to congressional districts that voted for President Obama (or 65 percent of the total amount allocated), $59 billion (or 35 percent) have been allocated to congressional districts that voted for McCain. It should be noted, however, that there were many more congressional districts that voted for Obama than voted for McCain. President Obama won 55.6 percent of congressional districts and McCain won 44.4 percent of these districts.
The districts that voted for President Obama received 40,037 awards (or 69 percent of the total number of awards allocated), much more than the districts that voted for candidate McCain; they received 24,483 awards (or 31 percent of the total number of awards).
The average awarded to marginal districts—districts with votes that did not vote overwhelmingly for one candidate or another (5 percent or less difference)—is $22 million. That‘s significantly less than the average awarded to non-marginal districts of $419 million.
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239 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Fri, Jul 23, 2010, 20:55
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Given that the stimulus awards are geared toward construction projects, it should be no surprise that the cities (which are skewed highly toward Dems) get more money. Not many rural districts have subways to upgrade, for instance.
On the other hand, cities pay far more in taxes than their rural counterparts, to the point where "red states" get a lot more money back per tax dollar than "blue states." so maybe this is finally a way for cities to get some of their tax dollars back that otherwise might have gone to some farm subsidy. Or GW Bush Library. Or a bridge to nowhere.
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240 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 546172318 Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 05:52
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My hope is that Obama isn't copycatting FDR's 1936 campaign: doling out most of the Federal Funds to districts that will help re-elect him rather than fully aiding a recovery in all districts.
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241 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 12:44
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One problem (among many) for many of these "red" districts is that their governors are being very choosy in what funds they will take. Some of them are publicly claiming they don't want any stimulus funding at all (while quietly taking millions in stimulus funds to balance their budgets).
Unfortunately, the filtering that goes on at the state level just puts up another barrier between the funding and the projects. A rural district with bridges to fix and construction workers idle have a harder time of it because of the political games the GOP is playing.
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242 | Boldwin
ID: 1646258 Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 09:46
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#240 Mclean
He's an Illinois politician. They don't call it machine politics for nothin'.
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243 | Mith
ID: 28646259 Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 11:59
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When did advancing stereotypes as sufficient evidence of corruption in lieu of any relevent facts become the right's MO? Didn't used to be the case, I don't think.
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244 | sarge33rd
ID: 280311620 Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 17:48
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just curious...what does all of this have to do with the Deepwater Explosion? lol
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245 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Aug 03, 2010, 23:03
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Its official: Deepwater Horizon spill is #1.
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246 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 11:44
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Breaking news: Explosion aboard oil rig in Gulf
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247 | Boldwin
ID: 1183027 Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 11:46
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Yup
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248 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Sep 02, 2010, 11:59
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Glad nearly all of them appear to be safe.
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249 | boikin
ID: 532592112 Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 15:26
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government blocked worst case oil spill figures
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250 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Tue, Oct 12, 2010, 19:32
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White House lifts drilling moratorium 6 weeks early.
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251 | Boldwin
ID: 79481219 Tue, Oct 12, 2010, 20:48
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I wonder if they will reimpose them after the election?
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252 | Boldwin
ID: 211053178 Wed, Nov 17, 2010, 16:10
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To the great disappointment of the MSM...things are going swimmingly.
Not that you'll see this story anywhere ahead of page 19.
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253 | Boldwin
ID: 211053178 Wed, Nov 17, 2010, 16:14
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“A few days have gone by since all these reports and I’m shocked, shocked that the story hasn’t been reported in the big national media. If I didn’t know better, I’d think they have an agenda or something.” - LOU DOLINAR to Instapundit
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254 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Thu, Mar 31, 2011, 21:31
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BP ignores Deepwater Horizon spill in its "Sustainability Report," citing the lack of an exact spill amount
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255 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522 Tue, Apr 26, 2011, 23:42
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BP scores huge tax credit by claiming cleanup costs on their taxes.
I guess their committment to pay for the costs themselves was merely a loan...
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258 | Mith
ID: 98342014 Thu, Nov 15, 2012, 12:30
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Another $4.5b in fines and two manslaughter indictments for BP.
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259 | Mith
ID: 4310402110 Thu, Feb 14, 2013, 13:39
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U.S. judge accepts Transocean $400 million Macondo settlement
This is separate from the $4.5b settlement that BP agreed to in November.
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