| 0 |
Subject: Bin Laden dead
Posted by: Tree
- [16329157] Sun, May 01, 2011, 22:55
Obama about to speak on it. |
Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well.
[Lengthy or complex threads may require a slight delay before updating.] |
| 264 | Khahan
ID: 373143013
Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 14:02
|
The longer one lives the more one notices how many strange coincidences there are in life.
Not saying it proves anything,
Correct. None of that is proof of anything. Its a red flag that there may be cause to do more investigation. Its a red flag that there may be more than meets the eye. But it is not proof that anything is there.
I don't begrudge anybody who looks at that information cross-eyed and says, "wait a minute, let me look at this closer."
What gets mocked are the people who take those red flags and hold them up as absolute proof and evidence of their theories.
Big difference between the two.
|
| 265 | Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Fri, Aug 12, 2011, 14:26
|
He watched the event from the roof of his house, not that your opinion will ever change.
link
|
| 266 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125
Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 02:51
|
Really? The crashed bird, was predominantly inside the compound. How did any eyewitness, from outside the compound, see anything that went on INSIDE the compound? Or was the eyewitness Superman and possessed of X-Ray vision?
B7 beat me to it. He literally lived exactly next door which was confirmed by the reporter. He lay prone on his roof during the entire raid and watched (wouldn't you)
Besides Sarge, just because it was in the compound "after" the crash doesn't mean it couldn't have a taken off a certain distance and then fallen back in.
In any case that doesn't matter as he could see over the wall because of the height he was at on the roof.
One again your smart ass "xray vision" comment proves my earlier point, you will mock anything that isn't the government line, even before you have all the facts.
And again, my points don't prove anything except that once again they leave us with so many questions.
|
| 267 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125
Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 02:57
|
Someone on Pakistani TV, CLAIMS to have seen something; and you immediately give him full credence? Sorry NC; I cant.
Where do I give it full credence? I just said combined with all the other issues I listed it gives one pause to consider what might have really happened. Particularly when a government I don't trust offers us zero proof.
|
| 268 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421
Sat, Aug 13, 2011, 12:12
|
Not a single military raid I am familiar with (except the landing on Somali beaches where the reporters had landed ahead of the troops), has the Military or the Govt EVER offered up "proof".
I'd venture to guess that 90% of all SEAL missions, you'll never know took place. That the Govt doesnt see fit to provide irrefutable oroof to the citizenry, is not keeping people in the dark, it IS smart military operational doctrine.
I'll let that Pakistani (where the distrust the US Givt even more than you do) have his 15 minutes of fame. I'll applaud the SEALS for their dedication and work, and I'll move on with my life. Was OBL taken alive and then died? I dunno, and quite honestly, I dont care. He's dead, and thats what I wanted him to be, so as far as I'm concerned, its all good.
|
| 269 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 14:01
|
I'd venture to guess that 90% of all SEAL missions, you'll never know took place.
accept this mission we were informed of moments after it happened.
Was OBL taken alive and then died? I dunno, and quite honestly, I dont care. Spoken like a well domesticated sheep.
|
| 270 | sarge33rd
ID: 1964421
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 14:33
|
Of course we were informed of this mission, moments later. The drive behind this mission, was also the drive behind one war in which we have been embroiled for almost a decade now. Ostensibly, though worngly, it/he was also the justification for a 2nd war where we have been embroiled for almost a decade. So yes, this missions after action was publicly shared. That would surprise you...why exactly?
|
| 271 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 14:41
|
we were informed of moments after it happened.
The death of OBL isn't something that would have been kept silent.
|
| 272 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 16:34
|
Someone on Pakistani TV, CLAIMS to have seen something; and you immediately give him full credence? Sorry NC; I cant.
and it was the Pakistani govt who shut the story up less then 24 hours after being reported thus helping the US official line.
The death of OBL isn't something that would have been kept silent.
Completely misses the point I was making but maybe you didn't read he context of Sarges point.
|
| 273 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 17:38
|
While the witness account does disagree with the official government account, I see no reason to question the government account on it's own. And I've seen sworn witness testimony which turned out to be untrue far too often for this guy to cause me to significantly challenge the government's version.
By all means, distrust for the government is healthy but that doesn't require a standard that every time some anonymous person says they witnessed a different version of the event. Especially in a case where believing this guy forces far greater discrepencies with what we know is true than the government line does.
This would have raised an eyebrow for me if al Qaeda or the Taliban or any foreign media were challenging the reports of bin Laden's death, or if someone insane with hate for Obama like James Inhofe questioned the evidence he saw of bin Laden's death, or if the government had claimed that the troops who took part in the raid were the same ones who died in the recent chopper crash, or questions publicly raised by families of soldiers they haven't heard from who might have been involved in the raid. But none of those or any similar discrepencies or logical counter-narratives exist that I know of.
So for me, the government version makes far more sense and therefore trumps this single anonymous foreigner's completely unsupported and rather illogical stand-alone account of what he saw.
|
| 274 | R9
ID: 2854239
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 18:36
|
There's never going to be proof either way, so arguing about facts seems rather pointless.
Either you believe OBL never existed, or you believe the US Gov killed him a little while ago.
Personally, I see merit in both positions. Thinking purely logically, I have to be suspicious of people who's entire proof of existence is CIA-verified tapes and US Gov press releases. IF the US wanted to fake up an enemy to further its aims, it seems fairly easy to see that they could've pulled it off.
The evidence doesn't remove either possibility, or prove either beyond reasonable doubt. Just imo.
|
| 275 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sun, Aug 14, 2011, 22:23
|
Pakistan gives China access to downed helicopter
|
| 276 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Mon, Aug 15, 2011, 00:35
|
Here's a picture of it right here.
|
| 277 | Perm Dude
ID: 39961218
Mon, Nov 07, 2011, 10:45
|
Former SEAL corrects the "fairy tale" story of the mission.
He's got harsh words all around (including some directed at the White House). Ironic, I think, that he takes people to task for spinning stories about the mission who have no operational experience, then makes the same mistake himself when criticizing the White House on a political decision. But it is an interesting peek at the mission.
|
| 278 | Building 7
ID: 541057215
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 10:51
|
Excerpt from #277:
President Obama stepped up to a podium in the East Room of the White House that night to announce bin Laden’s death. That rapid announcement, explained Pfarrer, posed a major threat to U.S. national security.
“There was a choice that night,” Pfarrer told TheDC. “There was a choice to keep the mission secret.” America, Pfarrer explained, could have left things alone for “weeks or months … even though there was evidence left on the ground there … and use the intelligence and finish off al-Qaida.”
But Obama’s announcement, he said, “rendered moot all of the intelligence that was gathered from the nexus of al-Qaida. The computer drives, the hard drives, the videocasettes, the CDs, the thumb drives, everything. Before that could even be looked through, the political decision was made to take credit for the operation.”
|
| 279 | sarge33rd
ID: 31011813
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 14:11
|
your point? Or would you SERIOUSLY claim, that any other President would have done any differently? This *IS* American politics we are talking about here.
|
| 280 | bibA
ID: 48627713
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:24
|
hmmm....I guess B7 would have written that Obama did the right and correct thing when the rest of the right went bananas had Obama kept the public in the dark for several months about the operation.
|
| 281 | Razor
ID: 569263121
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:29
|
Ya, no. Successfully hunting down and killing the man who haunted the country for ten years needed to be brought to the nation's attention ASAP. The solider's assumption that the intelligence was rendered useless is both unsupported and not balanced against the value of announcing his death to not only Americans, but to the world as a reminder that we will hunt you down no matter how long it takes.
|
| 282 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:41
|
Really it needed to be ASAP? Because if we had waited one day to tell the world they would have like ow man check out those Americans if only they would have found Bin Laden one day sooner I would have taken them serious. Clearly his assassination was clearly staged for maximum public affect.
|
| 283 | sarge33rd
ID: 381040814
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:47
|
clearly, you have no clue what you are talking about.
Even the guy who is taking Obama to task for speaking out, said it was NOT an assassination mission.
Just love it when people with ZERO operational experience, play arm chair QB with this kind of thing.
|
| 284 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:57
|
I an sorry Sarge, who was there and knows everything, lets use the word capture instead. Now, that you are done side tracking things, do you have something relevant to say about how waiting a day would have cost anything and that clearly his capture was clearly staged for maximum public affect.
Finally, even if the mission was not an assassination mission everyone knows there was zero chance he was coming back to America to stand trial.
|
| 285 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 15:59
|
I'm especially confused by 278. It seems to imply that the remainder of Al-Qaeda would have been completely ignorant to the fact that American commandos stormed their compound, killed Bin Laden, and took a lot of sensitive stuff IF ONLY THE PRESIDENT HADN'T BLABBED ABOUT IT.
Like, I don't know a lot about the communications structure of a major terrorist organization, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that maybe they might have found out about it pretty quickly some other way. Like, when they go knock on the door to visit Bin Laden and there's a week worth of Arabian porn magazines and Domino's Pizza coupons on the front steps and a US helicopter wreckage in the front lawn, that's maybe a sign that's something wrong. Or, you know, Twitter had pretty decent coverage of it.
That's just me speculating though.
|
| 286 | Mith
ID: 23217270
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 16:24
|
Clearly his assassination was clearly staged for maximum public affect.
If that were the priority, the confirmation, and possibly the operation itself, would have come as much closer to the election as possible.
How does anyone know that another 18 or 36 hours would have preserved the usefulness of intelligence collected there? American helicopters flying over a residential area and crash landing attracts a lot of attention. I have a hard time believing the word hadn't already spread through the network as Obama was preparing his statement.
Also I have no idea what the intended meaning of "like ow man check out those Americans" is.
|
| 287 | sarge33rd
ID: 381040814
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 16:41
|
284...show me boikin, where I said I was there, or that I knew everything? What I said was, YOU had no idea WTF you were talking about, when you said "Clearly his assassination was clearly staged...". Evidently I was right, since you walked it back to "clearly his capture was...". However, you still hold the entire operation was "staged" as in a hoax or setup for purposes other than those evident from the mission itself. I maintain boikin, you dont know WTF you are talking about. You are inserting your opinion and stating it as fact. In so doing, you prove my very contention.
|
| 288 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 16:49
|
Sarge, tell me where I am stating anything as fact? I am asking a question Really it needed to be ASAP? which clearly you don't have any answer too, thanks again.
Also I have no idea what the intended meaning of "like ow man check out those Americans" is.
I am just saying that no one would have thought any difference if the the event/announcement would have been 1 later, 5 days later or even 5 days earlier.
|
| 289 | Tree
ID: 41512710
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 16:56
|
Ya, no. Successfully hunting down and killing the man who haunted the country for ten years needed to be brought to the nation's attention ASAP.
this.
this country would have lost its collective $hit if word came down that OBL was killed six months prior, and it was kept a secret.
|
| 290 | Boldwin
ID: 35615181
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 17:00
|
That was my first reaction too, 'Oh, I'm pretty sure al qeada woulda found out'. But he was incommunicado. Very. No phones. He was limited to one dead contact with the outside world.
I have doubts they coulda found the contact info and got the drones there in time, but announcing it immediately couldn't have been that useful to Obama. Guess he just wasn't gonna let some leaker steal his thunder no how.
|
| 291 | Mith
ID: 23217270
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 17:00
|
That's probably true, Boikin, but it's wholly unsupported speculation that the timing of the announcement caused useful intelligence to expire. And if that speculation is wrong, I have no problem with informing the American people, especially the loved ones of 3000 murdered Americans, as soon as possible.
|
| 292 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 17:05
|
Guys, let's be clear:
The news of Bin Laden's death was all over Twitter BEFORE the President's announcement
Including a LIVE TWITTER of the raid itself from a nearby resident
The idea that Al Qaeda would have not known about this for 18-36 hours is just ridiculous. It's about a thousand times more likely that they knew about it before the announcement was even made.
|
| 293 | Mith
ID: 23217270
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 17:17
|
The compound was not in a remote location. It was in a residential neighborhood. Can anyone here imagine that scene going down 4 blocks from their house at any time of night and not knowing anying extraordinary was happening? Does anyone here think nobody in the neighborhood knew OBL was there?
just wasn't gonna let some leaker steal his thunder
Ignoring the snark, this is reasonable. Leaks of even good news make the administration look weak, even if they are inevitable. For news as important as that I can see why the President would want to deliver it himself. Insisting on the narrative of the timing as simply intelligence-destroying narcissism is typical partisan bile by false patriots
|
| 294 | Mith
ID: 23217270
Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 17:19
|
Yeah it's clear enough this Pfarrer fellow isn't the most reliable source for information.
This is why nobody respects the Daily Caller.
|
| 295 | nerveclinic
ID: 40352125
Sat, Nov 19, 2011, 08:31
|
Jesse Ventura was on Piers Morgan and said basically exactly what I said the night of the raid. Ventura is a former Navy seal.
When asked about the Bin Laden raid he said... what I question is this, were we told the truth? I, they lied about Pat Tillman's death, they lied about the rescue of Jessica Lynch, they lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
The conversation continued...
Well, let me ask you a direct question. Do you believe bin Laden is dead?
VENTURA: Yes. I think he's -- he may have been dead for 10 years for all we know. I mean, he had a disease where most doctors said it was fatal within a couple of years. How did this guy manage to live eight? You know he was going around needing dialysis treatment when 9/11 happened? You know?
And yet they tell us he survived that long? I don't know. I'm not privy to the intel anymore. I'm not currently in the military and haven't been for 40 years. But again let me commend the Navy SEALs, they will get the job done. They are the best we have.
MORGAN: But I'm all for conspiracy theories, Jesse, but obviously the Navy SEALs themselves who said that they found bin Laden alive and killed him. You wouldn't question the word (INAUDIBLE) of Navy SEAL?-
(CROSSTALK)
VENTURA: Well, how do you know that -- wait, how do you know that? None of us know the guys that were on this mission. None of us will. And who's to say that helicopter that killed those 18 guys from Team 6 didn't have all the guys on it that got bin Laden? How do we know?
MORGAN: Because --
VENTURA: We will never know. Because that's how secretive Team 6 is.
Piers, you'll never know who the operators were that went on those missions. That's how secretive it is.
|
| 296 | Boldwin
ID: 221047234
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 05:47
|
Yes Virginia, the CIA is monitoring your tweets and facebook. Of course.
Answering questions as diverse as 'which country's populations are most upset by OBL's hit?'.
How do these relate to polling results?
What's going on in that riot outside a USA outpost?
Which country is on the edge of revolt?
Who will China side with in WWIII?McLEAN, Va. – In an anonymous industrial park in Virginia, in an unassuming brick building, the CIA is following tweets -- up to 5 million a day.
At the agency's Open Source Center, a team known affectionately as the "vengeful librarians" also pores over Facebook, newspapers, TV news channels, local radio stations, Internet chat rooms -- anything overseas that anyone can access and contribute to openly.
From Arabic to Mandarin Chinese, from an angry tweet to a thoughtful blog,...
...Yes, they saw the uprising in Egypt coming; they just didn't know exactly when revolution might hit, said the center's director, Doug Naquin.
While most are based in Virginia, the analysts also are scattered throughout U.S. embassies worldwide to get a step closer to the pulse of their subjects. - Vengeful Librarians And another possible location to apply the National Survival Decision Tree
|
| 297 | Razor
ID: 551031157
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 09:36
|
The CIA is monitoring that which is published publicly? And a whole 2% of them? Sounds super dangerous.
|
| 298 | DWetzel
ID: 53326279
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 10:45
|
I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you. Scandal!
Mind you, this revelation came two weeks and less than five posts after I pointed out that someone live Twittered the actual US raid on Bin Laden in the first place. It seems pretty likely that at some point some poor schlub has twittered something equally interesting that our enemies were doing instead of us.
I can see the outcries of "how could you not monitor this stuff, IT WAS RIGHT THERE ON TWITTER FOR GOD'S SAKE, OBAMAO WANTS THE TERRORISTS TO WIN" if anything WASN'T monitored there. Pick a lane, guys.
|
| 299 | Boldwin
ID: 221047234
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 11:39
|
I think it's an interesting question how far from just monitoring the internet for 'the wedding *wink* *wink* is tomorrow noon', until they get the entire Total Information Awareness program Poindexter was aiming for before he was *wink* *wink* shut down.
|
| 300 | sarge33rd
ID: 3010102311
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 12:10
|
re 295: Yes, Jesse is a former Navy SEAL. He also says the FEMA Camps are real. I gotta take Mr Ventura, with a HUGE grain of salt.
|
| 301 | Tree
ID: 41512710
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 13:52
|
Jesse Ventura is also a former professional wrestler, and one of the best to ever enter the ring.
he's a master carny, and he knows how to "work".
and he knows that there's an entire universe of marks out there for him to work, and make a ton of money for doing it.
i give a lot of credit to Jesse for using the skills he learned in the wrestling business, and become a very rich man applying those skills to the world outside of wrestling.
|
| 302 | sarge33rd
ID: 3010102311
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 13:53
|
Y'know Tree, I hadnt thought about it maybe just being so much "schtick" on his part, but it would seem in character for him to do just that.
|
| 303 | Khahan
ID: 373143013
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 13:55
|
Thats actually a very interesting perspective Tree. Never gave that part of it much thought. I just always viewed Ventura has a far-right conspiracy theorist borderline-nutzo type. But the fact that he is a performer and may be doing a lot of this as a show is intriguing.
I would think he believes most (or even all) of what he says. But how far he takes his lines of thought and how publicly he takes his defense could easily be a show for the sake of a show.
|
| 304 | Razor
ID: 09441723
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 13:59
|
I think many of the right wing personalities are merely acting the part to make a buck - Coulter, Ventura, Beck and the like.
|
| 305 | Boldwin
ID: 221047234
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 15:17
|
Actually he wasn't exactly a SEAL If I recall correctly but very very close that. I think he believes everything his crew determines at the end of their investigation. He's taken very courageous positions that have hurt other popular entertainers bigtime.
I can't think of any conservative media people doing schtick they don't actually believe in unless you count the 'house conservative' for uber-lib papers and cablenews just there for the false appearance of some semblance of balance. A WHOLE lotta politicians do tho.
|
| 306 | Building 7
ID: 541057215
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 16:23
|
He took his schtick all the way to the Minnesota governor's mansion. I'm hoping he runs as Paul's VP candidate when Paul makes a 3rd party run.
|
| 307 | Tree
ID: 41512710
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 17:27
|
I think many of the right wing personalities are merely acting the part to make a buck - Coulter, Ventura, Beck and the like.
i agree with this. but in Ventura's case, he's a highly trained professional. he worked millions of marks before he even entered politics, and he saw that certain audiences were ripe for the picking.
Actually he wasn't exactly a SEAL
he was a member of the Underwater Demolition Team, who were merged with the SEALS 8 years after Ventura (well, James Janos, to be correct) left the navy.
He took his schtick all the way to the Minnesota governor's mansion. I'm hoping he runs as Paul's VP candidate when Paul makes a 3rd party run.
he sure did, and it was a job well done. i actually believe that Ventura believed in what he was doing, and there was no "work" here. he took the advice of an old high school teacher, ran for the mayor of a local township, and defeated the incumbent who had been there something like 30 years.
Ventura's campaign for Governor was well run. for starters, he was one of the first politicians to seriously use the internet to his advantage - i'd wager as history unfolds, he'll be labeled a pioneer.
as for the whole Ventura is a conservative thing, man, where did THAT come from?? he's in favor of gay rights (including gay marriage and gays in the military - once he said he wished there were more gays in the navy when he served, because there would have been less competition for women), abortion rights, heavy funding of public schools, and and the use of medical marijuana.
he also vetoed a bill to require the pledge of allegiance to be said in public schools. he's a big believer in mass transit, and he denounced the US sanctions against Cuba.
hardly a conservative.
|
| 308 | Boldwin
ID: 221047234
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 17:34
|
He's conservative when compared with Razor, but he's more properly called a populist. A populist with considerable common sense so he veers conservative unavoidably.
|
| 309 | Tree
ID: 41512710
Wed, Nov 23, 2011, 19:27
|
He's conservative when compared with Razor, but he's more properly called a populist. A populist with considerable common sense so he veers conservative unavoidably.
good to know that folks who are pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-medical marijuana, and pro-heavy public school funding have considerable common sense
you'll come around yet.
|
| 310 | Boldwin
ID: 221047234
Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 00:04
|
Yeah, well he never grew out of the, We'll probably die in the next rice paddy so let's go to get one last high and get laid in Phuket before we die.
Which is a common tho immoral sentiment in war.
|
| 311 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 00:43
|
Is that why he doesn't fall neatly into your dichotomy of political classifications?
Maybe the fact that he's not a Republican never entered onto your scale?
|
| 312 | Boldwin
ID: 221047234
Thu, Nov 24, 2011, 00:59
|
Any politician who goes to OWS and sides with them while agreeing with me 80% of the time, doesn't fall neatly into anybodies dichotomy.
|
| 313 | Nerveclinic
ID: 286461214
Thu, Oct 15, 2015, 13:43
|
New York Times article about inaccuracies in the Bin Laden Death Narrative.
link
|
If you believe a recent post violates the policy on Civility and Respect,
you may report the abuse via email to moderators@rotoguru1.com |
|
|
|
Post a reply to this message: Bin Laden dead
|